Latest / The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast / Episode 104: Hanne Ørstavik

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Episode 104: Hanne Ørstavik · The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast

0:12
SPEAKER_00: This is the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everybody.
0:15
This is Trevor and bringing to the show the thing with feathers
0:20
that perches in the soul,
0:22
Paul.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: Paul, how are you doing today?
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great today.
0:27
I am having a good day and now I'm feeling a little bit of
0:30
pressure on how I'm
0:31
SPEAKER_01: going to live up to that intro.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: You're not sure?
0:35
SPEAKER_00: I just assumed you always bring hope to the show.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: I thought you'd stay informed today at least.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: As long as the pressure doesn't get to me now, I think I'll be fine.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Don't give in to despair, Paul.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Don't give in to despair.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Even though we'll be talking about some darker books today.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good point.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I might need a little hope after we have this conversation.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm relying on you to set that tone.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I will do my best.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: But I'll be honest, it's also spring is in full bore outside.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not too hot, not cold.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:10
SPEAKER_00: I've been able to go on walks with just,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: wearing some shorts and a T-shirt and been comfortable.
1:16
It's not,
1:16
you know,
1:17
where I'm out there like,
1:18
oh,
1:18
the sun is really beating down on me.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'm feeling pretty good regardless,
1:23
SPEAKER_00: even though there's always stuff going on and that's rough.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, me and myself here in my home doing all right.
1:31
yeah absolutely it's like you said there's plenty of outside
1:33
noise but trying to
1:35
enjoy the spring um we've talked about we both had a pretty
1:38
busy you know stretch
1:40
with work and other things in our lives and that's ongoing for
1:42
me but it is so nice
1:44
just to take a walk or yesterday we had a tree planted in our
1:47
backyard and some new
1:49
bushes and things and it's just like that season of kind of i
1:52
don't know it sounds
1:53
SPEAKER_02: corny but just that season of like new things and
1:56
SPEAKER_02: planting things and watching things grow and everything is,
1:59
SPEAKER_02: there's always something that you can't really be too down.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: All right.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, I do want to just a couple of items here.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: We have a new Patreon supporter, Stephen Fernandez.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Stephen, for joining up in the family.
2:14
I hope you're enjoying your early access to episodes and past
2:18
bonus episodes.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: We will get another one out soon.
2:22
But if you're having any trouble finding access to those,
2:27
just let me know.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy to jump in and help you out there.
2:31
And I also want to remind visitors,
2:32
our last episode,
2:33
we focused on Charco Press.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And there is an awesome giveaway of a 2025 bundle from Charco.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: that they are sending out to a lucky listener.
2:45
You have to listen to that part of the episode because it's a
2:50
game you have to enter.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: So far, I haven't gotten any wrong answers.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's because people who don't know just don't try at all.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm only getting the ones who are really confident.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: But even the ones who are like, I think it might be...
3:04
SPEAKER_00: they're getting it right.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I haven't gotten anybody wrong, you know, so that's impressive.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't mind, you know, I'm not trying.
3:11
I'm actually not trying to like stump people to the point where
3:15
no one can get it.
3:16
I think it's fun if you have to think for a moment,
3:19
but I'm not trying to make it hard.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to make it fun.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
3:23
SPEAKER_02: I know that we're talking to some people,
3:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
3:26
SPEAKER_02: who are still maybe wanting to enter,
3:28
SPEAKER_02: but haven't quite figured out the puzzle yet.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: But I would just say,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: if there was ever a prize,
3:32
it's worth spending a little extra time trying to figure out
3:36
the right answer.
3:37
I think this is the one because that bundle from Charcot was
3:39
just an amazing prize.
3:40
So hopefully if anybody's,
3:42
you know,
3:42
still working at it,
3:43
they'll get it eventually.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: And there are a few hints in the episode, like a
3:49
SPEAKER_00: explicit hints even.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: They're not intentional.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: It's not like we were like, let's throw in some, some things.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: It's just that,
3:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:56
SPEAKER_00: when you're,
3:57
SPEAKER_00: when we're trying to tie it to an episode,
3:59
SPEAKER_00: there,
3:59
SPEAKER_00: there might be some really clear ties.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So anyway.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Easter eggs hidden throughout the episode.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: We are all episode.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: If you listen to just the first word of the,
4:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
4:10
SPEAKER_00: of,
4:11
SPEAKER_00: of what we say,
4:11
SPEAKER_00: we,
4:12
SPEAKER_00: we aligned it perfectly to it's first chapter of this book.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, never will we ever quite get that crazy.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: No, probably not.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I'm excited to be here today, Paul.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: We will be talking about Hannah Orstavik,
4:32
SPEAKER_00: an author that we both have grown to love more and more over the years.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: When we started this podcast, I had not read any of her books yet.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: And then the pastor came out and
4:43
SPEAKER_00: I think around that time and I really enjoyed it.
4:46
And then you,
4:47
you know,
4:47
had always been talking about love and I really enjoyed it.
4:51
And then,
4:52
you know,
4:53
the,
4:54
the Tiamo was one of my top books of the year a little bit ago.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: And this very week that we are releasing this,
5:02
SPEAKER_00: her latest is coming out here in the United States and is out in the UK.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Stay with me.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: And we'll get a little bit more detailed into that here in just a moment.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: First,
5:13
SPEAKER_00: What have you been reading, Paul?
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Well,
5:16
after years of circling this author very warily and kind of
5:20
being intrigued but a
5:21
SPEAKER_02: little intimidated,
5:22
SPEAKER_02: I've finally started to decide,
5:24
SPEAKER_02: or I decided to finally start reading William T.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: Volman.
5:28
He's one of those authors that has such a strong following and
5:32
his books receive such,
5:33
you know,
5:35
SPEAKER_02: effervescent praise from people that I would both been kind of intrigued,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: but also maybe a little bit wary about it,
5:41
SPEAKER_02: you know,
5:41
kind of that David Foster Wallace effect that we've talked
5:43
about where sometimes
5:45
SPEAKER_02: the fans almost have like a,
5:47
SPEAKER_02: wait a minute,
5:47
SPEAKER_02: calm down.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: I need to figure out if I want to actually do this effect on me.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: But, um,
5:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
5:52
so I just decided finally I wanted to do it because I've been
5:55
picking up some of
5:56
SPEAKER_02: his books pretty steadily anytime I see them in used bookstores.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: And so I just decided to jump right into his big,
6:02
what I think is probably considered one of his big projects is
6:05
the Seven Dreams series,
6:08
SPEAKER_02: which are subtitled as A Book of North American Landscapes.
6:12
And so this series is described as kind of historical novels
6:16
about the various conflicts between
6:19
the natives of North America and then various settlers and
6:22
governments and other
6:23
SPEAKER_02: people who've come in and disrupted their lives.
6:26
And so each one of these books in this series kind of focuses
6:30
on a different
6:30
SPEAKER_02: episode in North American history.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: And so this first one that I'm reading now is called The Ice Shirt,
6:38
SPEAKER_02: and it's set way back in the 10th century.
6:40
And it kind of follows the arrival of the Norse people as they
6:45
come into Greenland
6:46
SPEAKER_02: and parts of the Arctic in that area.
6:49
And so,
6:50
you know,
6:50
I know that Volman's reputation is kind of this mad genius.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, he really goes all in on his
6:57
SPEAKER_02: historical research,
6:58
and apparently he just spends tons and tons of time diving into
7:02
these topics.
7:02
And I can already see that coming through in the first 100
7:05
pages or so that I've
7:06
SPEAKER_02: read of this book.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: There's all these hand-drawn maps that he's done,
7:10
and there's glossaries with people and monsters and all these
7:13
things in them.
7:14
And you can just tell that this is one of those books that is
7:18
going to be unlike
7:18
SPEAKER_02: anything that you've read before.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
7:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm not very far into it,
7:22
but I'm just starting to notice there's this really interesting
7:24
style that he has,
7:25
SPEAKER_02: and it's kind of a mix of
7:27
SPEAKER_02: you know, a traditional historical fiction feel.
7:30
But then there's also these other passages where it gets into
7:32
more like mythology
7:33
SPEAKER_02: and almost feels more like,
7:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
7:35
SPEAKER_02: Beowulf or like a fantasy book.
7:37
But then he'll also interject with this very modern,
7:40
almost like journalistic style.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: that's really interesting too.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, it's off to a very intriguing start.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm like I said,
7:47
SPEAKER_02: about a hundred pages in,
7:48
SPEAKER_02: but so far I'm enjoying it and just kind of along for the ride.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Not sure what to expect next, but yeah.
7:55
Sounds like there's potential for you to become a fanatic,
7:58
but you know,
7:59
you're.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I always have that potential.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: That's what I mean about like,
8:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm always,
8:04
I know some people I've talked about this before and I
8:06
sometimes do get a little
8:07
SPEAKER_02: turned off by the hype around certain books or authors,
8:09
SPEAKER_02: but yeah,
8:11
SPEAKER_02: Often if there's that much excitement,
8:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm more intrigued and sometimes I can kind of,
8:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
8:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm drawn to it,
8:19
SPEAKER_02: I guess.
8:20
If something makes that big of a splash for people,
8:22
there's got to be something there.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm really, I don't know, I'm interested.
8:25
I think I have now four of the five books in this series that
8:29
have been released so far.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: So I've definitely been picking them up.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but we'll see how it goes from there.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: I have none, but they are intriguing to me.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: I just have never stopped to grab them.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll keep reporting back.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: What about you?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: What have you been reading?
8:49
SPEAKER_00: So I have been reading a book called The Bear...
8:53
SPEAKER_00: No, Dorian, not that one.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: This is The Bear by Andrew Krivak.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: It came out a few years ago.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: He is the author of The Sojourn,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: which was,
9:04
SPEAKER_00: I think,
9:04
SPEAKER_00: his debut novel about 10,
9:09
SPEAKER_00: 15 years ago that was up for the National Book Award.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And while I bought it, The Sojourn, I actually hadn't read it yet.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: But my wife chose The Bear for the Library Book Club for our April book.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: And she was really enjoying it.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I've been looking forward to it.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, this is an intriguing book.
9:31
The way she described it was it's like the road,
9:35
but with beauty and hope.
9:38
Yeah.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: So not at all like The Road.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: So not at all like The Road.
9:43
It is a post-apocalyptic world,
9:47
but it's actually darn near post-human entirely.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
9:53
SPEAKER_00: the first sentence of the book,
9:55
the last two were a girl and her father who lived along an old
10:00
eastern range on the
10:01
SPEAKER_00: side of a mountain they called The Mountain That Stands Alone.
10:05
The man had come there with a woman when they were young and
10:07
built a house out of timber,
10:09
stones pulled from the ground and mortar they made with a mix
10:12
of mud and sand.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: And so this is,
10:16
SPEAKER_00: I believe I haven't finished it yet,
10:18
SPEAKER_00: but speaking literally,
10:19
SPEAKER_00: these are the last two humans on earth and they,
10:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:25
are living in a world where the dad knows of some of the
10:31
world's history and
10:32
They have like a window that is kind of a prized heirloom from,
10:39
you know,
10:39
some generations.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: This has been going on for some time, but it is just the two of them.
10:45
And while I thought,
10:48
OK,
10:49
I kind of think I know where this is going to go.
10:52
I think this whole book is going to be about the dad trying to
10:55
prepare this girl to
10:57
SPEAKER_00: still live in this world,
10:58
SPEAKER_00: even when he's gone.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: It'll probably end with his death, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: It's beautifully written.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to enjoy it, but I know where this is going.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Nope, I didn't have any idea.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: About 100 pages into it,
11:10
everything that I thought was going to happen had kind of
11:13
already happened.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: And then we're in this new situation,
11:18
SPEAKER_00: a new,
11:20
SPEAKER_00: not a new story necessarily,
11:21
SPEAKER_00: but just something I had not expected.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very excited because as much as I was enjoying it,
11:28
SPEAKER_00: I thought I knew what I was in for and had,
11:32
SPEAKER_00: and kind of thought,
11:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I've,
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I've read this before,
11:35
SPEAKER_00: but yeah,
11:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm really,
11:36
SPEAKER_00: really,
11:37
SPEAKER_00: really enjoying it.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: So I actually think that you might really like it too,
11:41
SPEAKER_00: but I'll report back more when I'm fully done with it.
11:43
I have like,
11:44
it's pretty short and I think I have like a hundred pages left
11:48
is all.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: No, it does sound really intriguing.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: And I love when a book can do that kind of
11:54
SPEAKER_02: take your expectations and turn them upside down.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
11:58
SPEAKER_02: hopefully it'll be able to stick the landing for you,
12:00
SPEAKER_02: but that does sound really intriguing.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Really lovely writing about the world and about nature.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And just there are a lot of things I just think it would speak to you.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Like there's spring is coming.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And let's see here.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, dang it.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have to.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Why don't you talk for just a second?
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I want to find this line for you.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Found it.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Found it.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: You were too slow.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: You were too slow.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how long it takes me to get my thoughts gathered.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: So winter, it's winter when the book begins.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: But then this is very shortly into the book.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: It says,
12:54
SPEAKER_00: from a branch to the ground.
12:56
And I just thought that's really a lovely way of talking about
12:59
this delightful surprise,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:01
SPEAKER_00: the soft surprise of,
13:02
SPEAKER_00: of spring.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: So I think, I think it would speak to you.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh, but it sounds like it.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: I would say that,
13:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:09
SPEAKER_02: those lines that you just read remind me of the very,
13:13
SPEAKER_02: very,
13:13
SPEAKER_02: very end of the road.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: So like where there is just a tiny dropper of hope.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: So maybe this is like that distilled out through more of the book,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: but yeah,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: that sounds really good.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: All right.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: All right.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's jump into our topic.
13:29
Again,
13:30
as I mentioned a little bit earlier,
13:31
we are going to be talking about Hanna Orsztevic.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And...
13:36
SPEAKER_00: this is going to be our, our author focused episode.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: We usually try and do these,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: somewhat structured around,
13:43
SPEAKER_00: um,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: an episode that ends in a five,
13:46
SPEAKER_00: the number,
13:46
SPEAKER_00: but we have a different episode planned for 105.
13:49
Uh,
13:51
and so we wanted to still get Orszewik's episode in and what a delight.
13:56
This wasn't fully planned,
13:58
but we're releasing it on a release week for her latest book.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: So that's exciting.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Perfect serendipity.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: And with Hannah Orstevik,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many people know who she is,
14:10
SPEAKER_00: but she is a Norwegian author.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: And she's been publishing books since the 1990s.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: And we have five of them in English right now,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: including one that neither you nor I have read yet,
14:26
SPEAKER_00: which we'll talk about here in a bit.
14:27
We didn't necessarily remember that it existed,
14:30
or I think we would have tried.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: It was our Discord group that,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: we were talking about this upcoming episode and people were like,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: oh,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:40
SPEAKER_00: one of my favorite.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: The first one I read was The Blue Room,
14:43
SPEAKER_00: published by Perrine Press,
14:45
SPEAKER_00: which I was like,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: I probably have heard of this before because,
14:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:49
everybody who was posting on it are people who I follow and
14:51
have followed for years.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: And I follow Perrine Press.
14:55
I just didn't put them together,
14:56
you know,
14:56
that this is the same Hannah Orshton.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: I thought this was a different Hannah Orshton.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: It's like the John Smith of Norway.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: No,
15:05
SPEAKER_02: it's,
15:06
SPEAKER_02: it is like,
15:07
SPEAKER_02: we've talked about this before,
15:08
but it's fascinating and crazy to me how much time you and I
15:12
and many people around
15:13
SPEAKER_02: us spend
15:15
SPEAKER_02: thinking and talking and writing about this world of books.
15:19
And yet something like that can still happen where one of our
15:22
favorite authors can
15:23
have a book that we didn't even know existed or at least didn't
15:26
make the connection.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: It's, it's nuts.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:29
But tell me a little bit about your experience coming to know
15:34
Hannah Orstevik.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: When did you first read her?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: What was it?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: I think I know some of these answers.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: No, it was definitely all about love.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: When that book came out,
15:49
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember how quickly after it came out I got it,
15:51
SPEAKER_02: but pretty close.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: So that was published in 2018 by Archipelago.
15:56
And it was right around that time where it was just getting a
15:59
lot of buzz.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: And I was obviously in that stage,
16:03
early stages of just trying to get everything that archipelago
16:06
put out anyways,
16:07
SPEAKER_02: but then this one just sounded so intriguing and then
16:10
SPEAKER_02: it started winning awards and everything.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it was love for sure.
16:13
And it was love at first sight for me because I just,
16:16
that book blew me away.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: We can talk about it a little bit more,
16:18
SPEAKER_02: but yeah,
16:19
SPEAKER_02: as soon as I started reading it,
16:21
SPEAKER_02: it was just,
16:21
I was pulled straight in and I just knew that this was going to
16:25
be one of those
16:25
SPEAKER_02: authors who was going to become a favorite.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: And that's absolutely been the case.
16:30
Like you said,
16:30
I mean,
16:31
every book that's come out now,
16:32
she's one of those that when we do our
16:35
SPEAKER_02: yearly previews.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: And anytime I see her name pop up,
16:37
SPEAKER_02: it's just mark your calendar,
16:39
SPEAKER_02: getting this the day it comes out,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: you know?
16:40
SPEAKER_01: So,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: but yeah,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: for me,
16:42
SPEAKER_02: it was,
16:42
SPEAKER_02: it was,
16:42
I think I would have thought based on until we had that
16:47
conversation about the blue room,
16:48
SPEAKER_02: that love would have been the entry point for like most people,
16:51
SPEAKER_02: English speaking people.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: But apparently that's not the case.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: I just missed the boat early,
16:56
SPEAKER_02: but yeah,
16:56
SPEAKER_02: for me,
16:57
SPEAKER_02: I got there a little late apparently,
16:58
SPEAKER_02: but when I did,
16:59
SPEAKER_02: it was all in.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I got there, as I said before, even a little bit later, but
17:04
Just to let listeners know how these emerged into the
17:07
English-speaking world.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: So she published Love,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: and I do not know how to pronounce any words in Norwegian,
17:15
SPEAKER_00: so I'm not going to try.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: But that was in a translation by Martin Aitken,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: who has published all four of the books you and I have read,
17:22
SPEAKER_00: or translated all four of the books you and I have read.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And they've all been published by Archipelago Books here in the U.S.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: and other stories in the U.K.,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: But that all started in 2018 with Love.
17:37
But in 2014,
17:40
Perrine Press published The Blue Room in a translation by
17:44
Deborah Dawkins.
17:46
And so,
17:47
yeah,
17:47
I think a lot of our British friends probably got the book from that.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Because while it's available here in the U.S., you can get it.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't go to bookstores and find books by Perrine Press.
18:02
And so I think that many of them probably discovered her a few
18:07
years before the rest of us.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: But even all of that, Love was originally published in 1997.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: It was her third novel.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I know.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: I was going to mention that.
18:18
I don't know if I knew that at one point and had forgotten or
18:21
if I just never knew that,
18:22
but I did not remember or realize that there was a 20-year gap
18:26
between when it was
18:27
SPEAKER_02: originally written and when we got to read it,
18:29
SPEAKER_02: which...
18:30
SPEAKER_02: We can talk about that when we get to digging into that book.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: But I was shocked by that because 20 years,
18:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
18:36
SPEAKER_02: I realized it wasn't like it was back in the 1930s or anything,
18:39
SPEAKER_02: but that book feels so modern.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I was very surprised by that gap.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:45
And it feels so,
18:47
I mean,
18:47
modern in its writing and everything,
18:50
but also...
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Not the work of someone in her, what, 30s at the time?
18:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: No, not even in her 30s.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: She was born in 1969 and that book was published in 1997.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: So she was in her 20s and it's her third novel.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we'll talk more about the novel itself here in a moment.
19:11
And just so listeners know,
19:12
we're not intending to spoil any of these novels.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: We'll just talk about our affection for them,
19:16
SPEAKER_00: a little bit about them,
19:17
SPEAKER_00: maybe some quotes and such.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: But we're not going to like if you haven't read any of these,
19:23
SPEAKER_00: you don't need to worry that we're going to,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:27
SPEAKER_00: spoil that experience for you.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we will emphasize it and get you on, get you going on it.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I sure hope so.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was her third.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And then The Blue Room was her fourth, published in 1999.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: And then we go two novels that have not been translated,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: one published in 2000 and one in 2002,
19:47
SPEAKER_00: before we get to The Pastor,
19:49
which she published in 2004 and was published in 2021 by
19:55
Archipelago Books.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And then we don't have almost any of her next several novels.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Let's see, I'm counting one, two, three, four, five, at least.
20:06
written between 2004 and 2020 when she published Tiamo,
20:12
um,
20:12
in Norwegian.
20:13
And then that was only published for us in the U S and in the
20:17
UK back in 2022.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And we'll get to that one too, a little bit later.
20:22
And then,
20:22
like I said,
20:23
just this year,
20:23
we're getting her most recent to stay with me.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: So we're, we have a lot of, uh, past work.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if any of them are in process.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Um,
20:35
SPEAKER_00: the story, but her two first novels we don't have.
20:39
Then the two novels between,
20:40
uh,
20:41
the blue room and the pastor we don't have.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And then at least five after the pastor we don't have.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like her,
20:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:51
SPEAKER_00: the,
20:51
SPEAKER_00: the,
20:52
the desire for this from those of us here is growing as we get
20:57
more of her books.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: So I'm hoping that there are more in the works.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm excited about that too.
21:02
And I've noticed the frequency through Archipelago has been
21:06
picking up a little bit,
21:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:07
SPEAKER_02: they're,
21:07
SPEAKER_02: they're being published,
21:09
SPEAKER_02: um,
21:09
SPEAKER_02: pretty close together.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: So maybe that's a sign that they are trying to,
21:13
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
21:14
SPEAKER_02: stay with me was brand new,
21:15
SPEAKER_02: but maybe they are trying to,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: kind of keep that momentum going.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: I sure hope so.
21:19
Well,
21:19
and,
21:19
and who knows,
21:20
because Tiamo was also her,
21:23
her latest at the time in,
21:25
from 2020.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: And so if she keeps publishing and they just keep publishing,
21:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: the,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: what she just published without going back to her back catalog,
21:34
SPEAKER_00: we may wait a while,
21:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:35
SPEAKER_00: but hopefully we get some of these peppered in here.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, but, but yeah, so you started with love.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: I started with the pastor,
21:43
SPEAKER_00: which,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:44
came out for us in English in 2021 and then went to love a
21:48
couple of years ago,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: thought it was fantastic.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: And then Tiamo,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: So,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
21:53
why don't we why don't we jump into a little bit of this and
21:57
and talk a little bit
21:59
more about these books so that people can get to know why we
22:05
have why she's a
22:07
SPEAKER_00: publishing event for us.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Like when Stay With Me was announced,
22:11
SPEAKER_00: it's it was one of my most anticipated books of,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: the year by by a long ways.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I knew I will read that the second that it shows up.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: which we did.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: So, but do you want to talk about him in order of her publication?
22:28
SPEAKER_00: So again, we can't get to the blue room because we have not read it.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:33
Now that one's going to move to the top of my list until we
22:36
wait for a new one.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of the exciting thing is that,
22:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: both of us are like,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: when's the next one coming out?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, we can only say that so much until we have read all of them.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:48
So,
22:49
so listeners,
22:50
if you have read the blue room,
22:51
we would love to hear your thoughts.
22:53
I know that people really enjoyed it too,
22:56
who mentioned it over on the discord server.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But we're very curious about it.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, had we, had we heard about it a little bit sooner or
23:05
SPEAKER_00: we would have worked to get us copies and have read it for this episode,
23:10
SPEAKER_00: but I'm still going to do that for us.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: So,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: as soon as we're off the air,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: we need to make arrangements so that we can,
23:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:17
SPEAKER_00: however you would like that book.
23:18
I want to get it ordered so that you can read it and I can read
23:21
it very soon.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: We can be completionists in Orštevik's English work.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that sounds exciting.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: I love that plan.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: So,
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mean, do you want me to start talking about love?
23:33
SPEAKER_02: That was the first one chronologically, but also the first in my heart.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I think let's do it in chronological order,
23:42
SPEAKER_00: which actually,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: once we throw out the Blue Room,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: we're not throwing it out,
23:46
but once we acknowledge that we have not read it and therefore
23:49
can't talk too much
23:50
SPEAKER_00: about it,
23:51
SPEAKER_00: they did come to us in chronological order with love,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: the pastor,
23:56
SPEAKER_00: Tiamo,
23:56
SPEAKER_00: and then
23:57
SPEAKER_00: most recently, Stay With Me.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, please start with love.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Introduce us to love.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about why you love this book.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: I will.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, this is, I mean, I think this is probably still my favorite.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: It's funny how so often when you get introduced to an author,
24:14
you end up loving the first book you are exposed to does tend
24:19
to stick with you.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: And this one,
24:21
SPEAKER_02: I've talked about it a few times over the years,
24:23
SPEAKER_02: but it follows a mother and her son
24:26
on one day and veers back and forth between their points of
24:30
view in this really
24:31
SPEAKER_02: fascinating and powerful way.
24:32
I think it's a great example of what Urstavik does in so many
24:36
of her works,
24:37
SPEAKER_02: kind of conveying the inner lives and thoughts of the various characters,
24:41
but also showing how often we kind of don't quite understand
24:45
what's going on in the
24:46
SPEAKER_02: minds of others.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: even the people that are closest to us.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: I think,
24:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:50
SPEAKER_02: this one in particular does a masterful job of that,
24:52
SPEAKER_02: but I think that's a theme that carries through all of her books.
24:55
So yeah,
24:56
the single mother,
24:57
her name is,
24:57
I think it's called,
24:58
or pronounced Wiebeck,
25:00
Wiebeck.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: And then she has her son, Jan.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: Again, I'm probably...
25:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm always worried about the pronunciation,
25:06
SPEAKER_02: J-O-N,
25:07
SPEAKER_02: so I'm going to assume it's Jan,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: given the part of the world.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: So they've recently moved to this really small,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: remote little town in the northern part of Norway.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: And like I said,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: the book all takes place on one day,
25:17
SPEAKER_02: and it happens to be the day before Jan's birthday.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so heartbreaking.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: So heartbreaking, because his mom is very preoccupied.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: She's got a lot going on as a single mother,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: but also in her personal life,
25:30
SPEAKER_02: she's very preoccupied with
25:32
her own concerns and so she's basically forgotten that his
25:36
birthday is the next day
25:38
and oh it is so heartbreaking because you you get her point of
25:43
view as she's
25:43
thinking about this man that she likes or she's thinking about
25:46
these various
25:47
errands she needs to run and then we go back to the mind of
25:49
yawn and he is
25:51
basically just assuming that even though he doesn't see any
25:54
signs that you know she
25:56
knows his birthday's coming surely that can't be true so he's
25:58
just like well maybe
25:59
SPEAKER_02: it's a surprise and oh
26:01
SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's just her writing.
26:05
I was going to read a little bit to kind of show you the way it
26:09
veers back and forth.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: So it starts off, obviously, with the mother's point of view.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: And it says she gets through three books a week, often four or five.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: She wishes she could read all the time,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: sitting in bed with the duvet pulled up with coffee,
26:21
SPEAKER_02: lots of cigarettes and a warm night dress on.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: She could have done without the TV, too.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: I never watch it, she tells herself, but Jan would have minded.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: She gives a wide berth to an old woman waddling along,
26:32
SPEAKER_02: pulling a gray trolley behind her on the icy road.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: It's dark, the snow banked up at the roadsides blocking out the light.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: The beak thinks to herself.
26:39
Then she realizes she's forgotten to turn the headlights on and
26:41
has driven nearly
26:42
SPEAKER_02: all the way home in an unlit car.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: She turns them on.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: And then it switches.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: Jan tries not to blink.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: It's hard for him not to.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: It's the muscles around his eyes that go into spasm.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: He kneels on his bed and peers through the window.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: Everything is still.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: He's waiting for Fabique to come home.
26:59
He tries to keep his eyes open and calm,
27:01
fixed on the same spot outside the window.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: There must be at least three feet of snow.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: Under the snow live the mice.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: They have pathways and tunnels.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: They visit each other, Jan imagines.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they bring each other food.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: The sound of the car.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: When he's waiting, he can never quite recall it.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: I've forgotten, he tells himself.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: But then it comes back to him,
27:19
SPEAKER_02: often in pauses between the waiting,
27:21
SPEAKER_02: after he's stopped thinking about it.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: And then she comes, and he recognizes the sound in an instant.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: He hears it with his tummy.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: It's my tummy that remembers the sound, not me, he thinks to himself.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: And no sooner has he heard the car than he sees it,
27:33
SPEAKER_02: too,
27:33
SPEAKER_02: from the corner of the window,
27:34
SPEAKER_02: her blue car coming around the bend behind the banks of snow.
27:38
And she turns in at the house and drives up the little slope to
27:40
the front door.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: The engine is loud.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Its sound fills the room and then she switches it off.
27:45
He hears her slam the car door shut before the front door opens
27:48
and he counts the
27:49
SPEAKER_02: second until it closes again.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: The same sounds every day.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: And so,
27:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
27:55
you could pick probably any section of the book and get a very
27:58
similar experience,
27:58
SPEAKER_02: but I think that one does a wonderful job of conveying,
28:02
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:02
SPEAKER_02: the mother,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: it's not that that's what's so powerful about Orcevic is like,
28:08
SPEAKER_02: she doesn't necessarily take a side,
28:09
SPEAKER_02: but you could clearly see that these
28:11
they both have their own inner lives and their own priorities
28:15
and just seeing them
28:16
SPEAKER_02: miss and miss and miss each other.
28:18
And especially seeing the way that Jan has so much of his life
28:22
is centered around
28:23
his mom as he sits there and waits for her or assumes that
28:26
she's taking care of
28:27
SPEAKER_02: things for his birthday.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's just that trust.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: It is a,
28:36
SPEAKER_00: It's a book that feels like so much is happening,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: even though not a whole lot is in a way,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: it's about everything.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: it is these worlds and it is,
28:48
SPEAKER_00: it is so,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: so strong in how it portrays these characters,
28:55
SPEAKER_00: because even though you're like,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: man,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Vivique,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: you really need to,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: to kind of pull your head out and focus on your child here.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: He, he,
29:06
SPEAKER_00: his world is, is this and you're letting him down.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: You also recognize that she is in a,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: in a dark spot herself and doesn't want to neglect him necessarily,
29:21
but is getting little support and has her own things that she
29:25
is that are serious
29:26
SPEAKER_00: that she's trying to deal with.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: And he can't help her with those in, in any,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: substantive way.
29:32
And so it's just to see them kind of going back and forth and
29:35
this idea that they
29:36
both are living these very intense emotional worlds right next
29:40
to each other,
29:42
SPEAKER_00: but without really being with each other.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's, it's so well done.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: And,
29:49
SPEAKER_00: and I think,
29:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: it's,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: I can't pick a favorite,
29:54
SPEAKER_00: but when you talk about this,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: it becomes my favorite,
29:57
SPEAKER_00: right?
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: And that may happen with all of them that we go through.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: That's what I was going to say.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: I know we bring up Mark Haber all the time,
30:05
SPEAKER_02: but as you were talking about it just now,
30:07
SPEAKER_02: it did kind of remind me of Lesser Ruins,
30:09
where the narrator and then his son are both going through
30:14
their own things,
30:15
SPEAKER_02: and they both are feeling them intensely,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: but they can never quite connect,
30:19
SPEAKER_02: and they keep veering right next to each other.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: There's echoes of that, I think, and I'm sure that that's a common theme.
30:24
that we all do whether with our children or our significant
30:27
others or friends where
30:29
it's not that you're trying to necessarily be selfish or
30:32
self-focused it's just a
30:33
lot of people are doing their best and striving and you know
30:36
just trying to keep
30:37
their head above water and often that means that you don't
30:40
necessarily notice the
30:41
people around you or at least the details of their lives so
30:44
yeah yeah it's it's
30:47
really quietly devastating and and at the same time there's a
30:50
lot of dread
30:52
SPEAKER_00: in this book.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that when you, when you read it and think about it?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Like,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: honestly,
30:56
SPEAKER_00: I could have,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: I kept thinking in any page,
30:59
SPEAKER_00: something horrible is actually going to happen.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: No, she's leading you to that.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: You know,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: it's,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: it is deliberate,
31:06
SPEAKER_00: but it's,
31:07
SPEAKER_00: it isn't just quietly devastating,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: people sitting in a room together.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: It is something bad's
31:15
SPEAKER_00: right around the corner for, for, for everybody involved.
31:18
And it's,
31:20
it's emotionally very,
31:23
I was very stressed reading this book,
31:27
this book called love.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: No, it's true.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: It's got,
31:33
SPEAKER_02: it is,
31:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
31:34
I would argue it's a page turner and it's got a little bit of
31:36
almost like a
31:38
SPEAKER_02: suspense or a crime to it at times.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: And,
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
31:42
SPEAKER_02: as you're turning,
31:42
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
31:43
SPEAKER_02: every time you turn the page,
31:44
SPEAKER_02: you're compelled to,
31:45
but you're also kind of afraid to because you don't feel like
31:48
anything good is
31:48
SPEAKER_02: going to happen.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, she is really good.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is probably...
31:53
think the most like on the nose version of that that kind of
31:58
page turner like a
31:59
little bit of almost like a you know patricia highsmith kind of
32:02
feel where you're
32:03
like you what comes next yeah but i do think that it does carry
32:06
through all of her
32:07
books to some degree with that idea of just she's really good
32:10
at kind of giving you
32:11
details and dropping in little hints without giving it away
32:14
that you know it just
32:15
SPEAKER_02: kind of keeps pulling you along
32:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it is probably because of that, though.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do agree that the others have it, but not as much as this one.
32:25
I might say if you have not read anything by her,
32:29
this is a great place to start.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: It's relatively short.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: It's propulsive.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it focuses on, too, and now is a great time to introduce it.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: She herself has said that the subject she's always returning to is love.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
32:48
But she is often examining that in all of these nuanced ways
32:54
that are also related
32:55
SPEAKER_00: to pain and trauma and desire and fear and abandonment.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And yet...
33:06
SPEAKER_00: there is love underneath it.
33:08
And I think she's often trying to explore what is this thing we
33:12
call love and how
33:13
SPEAKER_00: is it that,
33:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:14
SPEAKER_00: despite this love that we feel we,
33:18
SPEAKER_00: and maybe because of this love that we feel we are in the,
33:21
a really great position to be the one who can most hurt the
33:24
people that we do love.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: And anyway, yeah, go ahead.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: No, no, that's exactly right.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: I, um,
33:31
SPEAKER_02: I was going to touch on this.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
33:32
SPEAKER_02: the most obvious one is Tiamo,
33:33
SPEAKER_02: but several of her novels,
33:35
SPEAKER_02: if not all of them,
33:35
SPEAKER_02: have very strong autobiographical ties.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: And I stumbled onto an interview with her and Martin Akin,
33:43
SPEAKER_02: where she was talking about kind of what you were just saying about the
33:46
SPEAKER_02: explorations of love.
33:47
SPEAKER_02: And she said,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: I started writing the book Love when my daughter was just born,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: published 23 years earlier back in 1997.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: The investigation in love was to me the immense feeling of helplessness.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: How could I ever be sure that my daughter knew I love her?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: Because you can say it over and over again,
34:03
but when are the words complete with the meaning they carry
34:05
when spoken out?
34:06
SPEAKER_02: Love doesn't come just by naming it.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: I thought, ooh, that was very powerful.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: She takes an unflinching view at love,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: which is something that is sometimes hard,
34:20
SPEAKER_02: but I think kind of refreshing too.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: It's not any kind of like rosy.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there is...
34:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: it's hard to explain,
34:27
but I think what she does is like poke at the edges of what
34:30
love means and expose
34:31
SPEAKER_02: how even people who mean well or are doing their best,
34:34
SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of messiness and hurt and other things going on with love.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, we can keep on coming back to it and we might.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's a good time to move on to the next one,
34:49
which in some ways feels a little bit like an outlier of the
34:53
four that we have read.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: The Pastor, also published in a translation by Martin Aitken.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: I think this book gets lost in the shuffle, but I think it's lovely.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: I loved this book.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: I loved its quiet reflection.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: I do think it's maybe slower than
35:11
a little bit more meditative,
35:12
maybe subtler than the others that we'll talk about.
35:16
But it's still filled with a lot of the rich psychological
35:20
insight that we come to
35:21
SPEAKER_00: expect from her work.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: It is about a woman.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: She's a pastor and she is trying to reconcile
35:30
SPEAKER_00: her belief for maybe potential,
35:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:33
SPEAKER_00: uh,
35:35
SPEAKER_00: cynicism,
35:36
SPEAKER_00: um,
35:36
SPEAKER_00: with her place and responsibilities.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: And I just thought it's,
35:42
SPEAKER_00: or Stavik is so compassionate as she writes about this,
35:46
SPEAKER_00: this woman,
35:47
SPEAKER_00: um,
35:47
SPEAKER_00: and all cards on the table.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: One of my all time favorite films is winter light by Imar Bergman.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Um,
35:54
And I don't know why the Scandinavians can just do this despair
35:58
with faith or the
36:01
SPEAKER_00: frustration of when you're like,
36:03
SPEAKER_00: wait,
36:05
this stuff that I've been kind of putting my life into and my
36:09
life around,
36:10
SPEAKER_00: these hopes,
36:11
these things that have made the pain I've lived through feel
36:14
like it's okay if they
36:16
SPEAKER_00: go away.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
36:19
SPEAKER_00: What am I?
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And what have I been telling people?
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Because the film and this book,
36:23
it's about a religious leader who is struggling with their own
36:30
theology and the
36:31
SPEAKER_00: violence inherent in it,
36:32
SPEAKER_00: but also the fact that they're like,
36:34
SPEAKER_00: I just don't know.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And I have these doubts.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: But the other thing that I love about the pastor is...
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Orstovic's handling of doubt doesn't treat it like a crisis to solve.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Or even,
36:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: it's almost like post-crisis in a way,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: but rather as a space to dwell in and explore and still grow within.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: And I just, I loved it.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: I thought that the setting was beautiful,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: that,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:06
it's northern Norway and just remote and cold and isolated and
37:13
threatening while
37:14
SPEAKER_00: also beautiful and deserving of your respect.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this was such a great...
37:20
uh book i thought and i don't know i've never talked to you
37:23
about it so i don't
37:24
know if you're like i thought it was stupid or it just didn't
37:27
do it for me or i
37:28
don't even remember it or you know what um i loved it too i
37:32
don't know where you're
37:32
at yeah no definitely definitely loved it this one too i will
37:36
say of the four books
37:38
we're talking about today this is the one like i read love
37:42
longest ago but i've
37:43
reread it since so this one i read after love but um i haven't
37:47
reread it i guess is
37:48
SPEAKER_02: what i'm trying to say so
37:49
SPEAKER_02: it's probably the one that I have the less,
37:52
SPEAKER_02: the least amount of like specific details in my memory about it.
37:56
But as I was like going back and flipping through and reading
37:58
reviews and it all
38:00
SPEAKER_02: came back to me and I agree with you,
38:01
SPEAKER_02: it's,
38:02
SPEAKER_02: it's beautiful.
38:02
I was actually thinking I'm going to reread this one next for a
38:06
lot of the same
38:07
SPEAKER_02: reasons you were just saying.
38:08
And I love that comparison you made to Bergman because I saw
38:11
the Bergman film for
38:12
the first time within the last year or so and hadn't made that connection,
38:15
SPEAKER_02: but that's,
38:16
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
38:16
SPEAKER_02: that's perfect.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: It's,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: Her struggles as she,
38:21
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
38:21
SPEAKER_02: is having somewhat of a crisis of faith or maybe not a crisis of faith,
38:24
SPEAKER_02: but just trying to figure out what she thinks and believes.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: And then there is that.
38:30
through line that continues through so many of these books
38:32
where there was some
38:34
SPEAKER_02: pain or some trauma in her past.
38:38
Do you mind if I introduce that by reading the first little bit
38:43
of the book?
38:43
SPEAKER_00: No, no, that would be perfect.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Because again,
38:45
this is one thing I love about her is how seamlessly she brings
38:49
that into the
38:50
SPEAKER_00: narrative fold that she's creating.
38:53
So these are the first few paragraphs of the book,
38:55
starting at number one.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: This is the blood of Christ.
39:00
I stepped sideways again and poured wine into the next shiny
39:03
little communion cup.
39:05
I looked at the bowed heads in front of me,
39:07
a row of heads,
39:08
one after another.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: It was all just the way it was supposed to be, I thought to myself.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: To this place, you may come and be as one.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Here you are chosen, special.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: You shall not be overlooked, but may dwell here.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: You, that was me too.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: We...
39:25
SPEAKER_00: The altar rail was a beginning.
39:27
Its semicircle was a sign that said it was a part of something larger,
39:30
a circle.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: And enclosing that circle was another circle,
39:34
SPEAKER_00: which in turn was enclosed by another,
39:36
SPEAKER_00: larger still,
39:37
SPEAKER_00: a great gleaming space,
39:39
SPEAKER_00: vast and infinite.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: It said too that we could be together here, every one of us, here.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Here you may dwell.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: This place is for you.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: There was silence.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: It seemed as if they were fanned out in front of me,
39:55
as if a line went from each of their spines stretching out into
39:58
a landscape,
40:00
SPEAKER_00: out into the open expanse,
40:01
SPEAKER_00: out over the fells,
40:02
SPEAKER_00: out over the sea and onwards into infinity.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: They had taken that landscape inside with them.
40:09
Soon they would rise,
40:10
would push open the doors and go out into it again and disperse.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: These people kneeling as if to say, we tolerate you.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: despite everything.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps they'd even forgotten.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: I could have gone somewhere else, somewhere other than here.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Only I knew something would have happened there too.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Not the same thing again, but something else I couldn't prevent.
40:34
Something inevitable from which subsequently I would have been
40:37
unable to hide.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Something that could be seen in my face.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: And then,
40:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:43
SPEAKER_00: it kind of goes on a little bit into that thing,
40:45
SPEAKER_00: but I just love how she's like,
40:47
SPEAKER_00: you've got this thing flowing and
40:50
SPEAKER_00: And then enters that.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: No, she's amazing.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
40:57
SPEAKER_02: the narrator,
40:58
SPEAKER_02: as we were,
41:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
41:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to give anything away,
41:01
SPEAKER_02: but she was studying theology and this is kind of her chance.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: She's moved to this place to kind of get some practical experience,
41:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:07
SPEAKER_02: in this role as a pastor.
41:09
But she is obviously a female in this role that traditionally
41:16
has not been,
41:17
you know,
41:17
that,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: welcoming to the,
41:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:21
SPEAKER_02: the idea of a female pastor is in this traditional village kind of still,
41:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
41:27
SPEAKER_02: controversial or at least different.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And so she's dealing with that.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: She's in a place that she is not,
41:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:33
SPEAKER_02: she's very much an outsider,
41:34
SPEAKER_02: I guess is what I'm trying to say.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: And so we're dealing with that.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: And I love in that passage that you just read,
41:38
SPEAKER_02: I'd kind of forgotten that,
41:39
SPEAKER_02: but this idea of like,
41:42
SPEAKER_02: she is fleeing from something that's happened in her past,
41:44
SPEAKER_02: which again,
41:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to give it away,
41:45
SPEAKER_02: but it comes up again and again in this book in various ways.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: And
41:50
It's that idea that even when you're trying to run away from
41:53
your past or some of
41:54
SPEAKER_02: these things,
41:55
SPEAKER_02: they will find you.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: And I like that.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Even if I go somewhere else, I'll be able to see it in my face.
42:01
It's just so true to humanity of just this experience that we
42:07
have of trying to
42:08
SPEAKER_02: deal with our past and reckon with our presence.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: It's just...
42:13
SPEAKER_02: as so often happens with these books and people that we love,
42:15
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm not being very articulate,
42:17
SPEAKER_02: but just,
42:18
SPEAKER_02: she's so masterful at that.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: And so,
42:20
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
42:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
42:21
as she is trying to kind of fit into this remote village and
42:25
become less of an outsider,
42:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:26
she's involved in some of the community things that take place
42:30
and the concerts and
42:31
SPEAKER_02: the coffee and different things like that.
42:33
And she lives in the house with this family and she lives
42:37
upstairs and they live downstairs.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: So she's like always there, but never quite feels like she's,
42:43
SPEAKER_02: in the community, I guess.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: And then something happens and I won't give too much away,
42:47
but there's a tragedy that happens locally that kind of
42:49
connects her past and some
42:51
SPEAKER_02: of the trauma that she's trying to deal with,
42:53
SPEAKER_02: with the present day.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think just the way that that plays out is heartbreaking,
42:58
SPEAKER_02: but also just so masterfully done.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Well,
43:01
SPEAKER_00: you hit on a really,
43:02
SPEAKER_00: I think another through line of her books is this,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: past and the trauma that we may have experienced in the past.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: and how it affects our relationships in the present.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: Like that's very much,
43:16
I think what the mom is going through in love and very much
43:20
something that's going
43:21
SPEAKER_00: on with the pastor.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: You know,
43:23
SPEAKER_00: this is,
43:23
SPEAKER_00: this is about someone trying to care for someone else,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: but kind of caught in that fog of uncertainty and,
43:31
SPEAKER_00: and,
43:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:32
SPEAKER_00: feeling like I don't,
43:36
SPEAKER_00: quite know if I'm the right person for this or any of us.
43:40
And we're going to get into that probably even much more so in
43:43
Stay With Me here in
43:44
SPEAKER_00: a few minutes.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
43:47
I'm seeing that as something that she is often dealing with is
43:51
how do we form and
43:53
how does our formation create our capacities when it comes to
43:59
love and these
44:01
SPEAKER_00: relationships where you're trying to care for other people
44:04
SPEAKER_00: But you're really dealing with some of your own fears and issues, too.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: And you know that, frankly, they are, too.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's pretty, pretty great.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: It is.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: I was just going to say,
44:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
44:17
SPEAKER_02: one of my favorite bloggers and reviewers,
44:19
SPEAKER_02: and I know one of yours is Tony over at Tony's Reading List.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: He always does an amazing job.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: I was reading what he wrote about this book,
44:25
SPEAKER_02: and I love the way he kind of closed out his review,
44:27
SPEAKER_02: so I thought I would just quickly read that.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: It says,
44:45
SPEAKER_02: And it says,
44:45
SPEAKER_02: The Pastor is another excellent book by an accomplished writer,
44:48
SPEAKER_02: an absorbing tale of a woman at a crossroads,
44:50
SPEAKER_02: trying to find the strength to keep walking her path.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: I really like the way that closes out,
44:55
SPEAKER_02: just trying to find the strength to keep walking her path.
44:57
SPEAKER_02: I think that ties into exactly what you were saying.
44:59
SPEAKER_02: And maybe all of the books by Orstavik is this,
45:03
it is admirable that people are still trying to do what they
45:06
need to do in the face
45:07
SPEAKER_02: of life.
45:09
But I also liked that because it touches on something we talk
45:12
about a lot with
45:13
SPEAKER_02: archipelago books,
45:14
SPEAKER_02: just how beautiful they are as objects.
45:16
And I love what he was saying about the bleakness of the white
45:19
text on a black
45:20
SPEAKER_02: background and the black and white photo on the front.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: He's right.
45:23
Looking at these books,
45:24
all four of these from them are just gorgeous books.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: No, they look so good on the shelf and to hold and read.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: I do think that you,
45:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:37
SPEAKER_00: talking about how do you love others through life and,
45:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
45:43
SPEAKER_00: are you ready to,
45:44
SPEAKER_00: is that a good segue to how do you do it in death?
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think it is.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: This is another, it's going to get even harder to talk about, but
45:54
SPEAKER_02: You have read the beginning of Tiamo,
45:56
SPEAKER_02: which came out in 2022,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: I think at least once,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: if not several times.
46:00
SPEAKER_02: I think a few times, yeah.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: But I don't know.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm almost tempted to have you read it if you want to one more time,
46:06
SPEAKER_02: because I think it is one of the most powerful openings to any...
46:10
SPEAKER_02: book that I've ever read.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you want to do that?
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's hard not to.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: I reread it to myself quite often.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you're right.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: I've read it a few times on here and talking about this book.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: But in case people have forgotten.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: Here's how Tiamo, which is I love you.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, probably most people know that, but it is I love you.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: And it's what this narrator,
46:38
SPEAKER_00: who is a close,
46:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:42
SPEAKER_00: this book and Stay With Me,
46:45
SPEAKER_00: the next one,
46:46
SPEAKER_00: both feel exceptionally autobiographical.
46:49
To the point they might be autobiographical,
46:51
but I don't know where the line is.
46:53
And so I'll just say an narrator very close to Orstevic who is
46:58
watching as her husband dies.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: It says, I love you.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: We say it to each other all the time.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: We say it instead of saying something else.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: What would that something else be?
47:14
SPEAKER_00: You.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm dying.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Us.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: Don't leave me.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Me.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Before.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I'll do without you when you're not here anymore.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Now.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do with these days,
47:35
SPEAKER_00: all this time in which death is the most obvious of all things.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
47:40
You say it at night when you wake up in pain or between dreams
47:44
and reach out for me.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: I say it to you when my hand finds your skull,
47:49
which has become small and round in my palm now that your hair
47:52
is almost gone,
47:54
SPEAKER_00: or when I stroke you gently to get you to turn over and stop snoring.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: Once I would reach out in the night to touch your skin,
48:03
SPEAKER_00: to place my hand on your back,
48:05
SPEAKER_00: your stomach,
48:06
SPEAKER_00: your thigh,
48:07
SPEAKER_00: anywhere at all,
48:07
SPEAKER_00: and there'd be connection,
48:10
SPEAKER_00: contact.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: And in that feeling of skin and warmth,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: something small and without language,
48:15
SPEAKER_00: something perhaps undeveloped in me,
48:16
SPEAKER_00: a newborn part,
48:19
SPEAKER_00: could sink down to sense the base of night,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: return home,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: or arrive.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: But you are no longer in your body.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where you are.
48:31
Awash in morphine,
48:34
you drift in and out of sleep or languor,
48:36
and we do not talk about death.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: I love you,
48:39
SPEAKER_00: you say to me instead,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: and reach out for me from the bed on which you lie through the days,
48:45
SPEAKER_00: fully dressed,
48:46
SPEAKER_00: writing on your phone,
48:47
SPEAKER_00: writing a novel on that little screen,
48:49
SPEAKER_00: two or three lines at a time before you drift into sleep again.
48:52
And I let go of the doorframe and step towards you and take
48:55
your hand and look at
48:56
SPEAKER_00: you and say,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: I love you too.
49:01
That's the opening paragraph to this devastatingly beautiful
49:07
book about the loss of
49:09
SPEAKER_00: a spouse,
49:10
SPEAKER_00: but also the loss of yourself in that time.
49:16
The struggle to,
49:18
you know,
49:18
basically you're seeing somebody who is disappearing,
49:22
right?
49:23
before your eyes that what you have is dwindling,
49:26
but it's also not ending.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: You continue to live in that state of disappearance.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's so, you know, that raw presence of death.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: This one might be my favorite, Paul.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: How could you listen to that?
49:47
opening and not say that i mean it is it's so powerful and i
49:50
think like you said it
49:51
becomes even more heart-wrenching when you realize just how
49:54
autobiographical it is
49:55
because um yeah this is an experience that or civic went
49:59
through with her husband
50:01
dying and again that same interview that i mentioned earlier
50:04
which i should mention
50:05
SPEAKER_02: it's with natalia deleva is the person who was doing the interview um
50:10
SPEAKER_02: I was just going to read a little bit of an excerpt from that,
50:12
SPEAKER_02: because she says,
50:14
SPEAKER_02: I started to write Tiamo because I needed to.
50:17
SPEAKER_02: I had no plan of writing a literary text or a book or anything.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: I just needed to write so that in the process of writing,
50:23
I could have a place where to go with all the things that my
50:26
husband and I could
50:27
SPEAKER_02: not talk about.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: My husband did not want to die.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: He was terrified of death,
50:32
SPEAKER_02: or I think he was,
50:33
SPEAKER_02: or perhaps he wanted to protect me by not talking about it.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: I will never know.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: I needed a place where I could say, you are going to die.
50:40
So what I did in this text was to be extremely honest to myself
50:43
and the reality I
50:44
SPEAKER_02: was living in next to my dying man.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: And it goes on.
50:48
SPEAKER_02: The interviewer says, you know,
50:52
SPEAKER_02: How did the process go for you of writing this book?
50:55
SPEAKER_02: And Orstevic says, in a way, the book itself shows its own process.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: It's all laid out in there.
50:59
The text is written in present tense most of the time,
51:02
and that is actually how it was.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: The now in the novel was the now of the writing moment.
51:07
SPEAKER_02: It was completed in 10 days, and I sent it to my publisher in Oslo.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: The editing was minimal.
51:11
SPEAKER_02: There it was.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: So,
51:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
51:14
just that makes it even more of a gut punch because there's a
51:18
part later in,
51:19
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember,
51:20
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't find it,
51:20
SPEAKER_02: but somewhere in the same interview,
51:22
SPEAKER_02: she basically says in so many words,
51:25
SPEAKER_02: like this could basically be considered nonfiction.
51:27
SPEAKER_02: Like this entire book is not really a novel.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: And so,
51:32
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
51:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
51:33
SPEAKER_02: it's so powerful read as a novel,
51:35
SPEAKER_02: but then when you add in that wrinkle to it,
51:38
SPEAKER_02: it makes it even more beautiful and sad and everything.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
51:43
And we talked about,
51:44
you know,
51:45
she doesn't put a rose-tinted view on love.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think this one is another example of that where...
51:56
there's an interesting thing that happens partway through this
51:58
book where even
51:58
SPEAKER_02: though she is completely involved with her husband as he's dying,
52:03
SPEAKER_02: she is very present.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: She still has to travel and do her job and things like that.
52:08
And there is like this interesting thing that happens where she
52:11
meets a man,
52:12
SPEAKER_02: another man out on the road and,
52:14
SPEAKER_02: and they have this kind of like flirtatious spark going on.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: And so it's just,
52:22
every time you think one of her books that you haven't kind of
52:24
figured out where
52:24
SPEAKER_02: it's going,
52:25
SPEAKER_02: there tends to be these things that cause some dissonance or some,
52:28
SPEAKER_02: for me,
52:29
SPEAKER_02: it makes you uncomfortable because it's not what you thought it was.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: And so I just think it's important to mention that too,
52:34
SPEAKER_02: is,
52:34
SPEAKER_02: is this is absolutely a love story about her and her husband,
52:40
SPEAKER_02: but it is not clean.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: It is,
52:43
SPEAKER_02: it's got a dissonance and a messiness to it that makes it,
52:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:47
SPEAKER_02: true to human nature,
52:48
SPEAKER_02: I guess.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that she's able to do that.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: I respect it.
52:52
It is uncomfortable,
52:54
but it must have been for her too,
52:56
but that's why she's writing about it.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: It's because how is it that I am even capable in this time...
53:07
of these feelings or of,
53:09
of this attraction or,
53:10
uh,
53:10
you know,
53:11
all of that.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: She is,
53:13
she is willing to go there and examine herself in a way that
53:18
most of us would want to,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: out of shame or just,
53:22
I don't want people to know that I was capable of that makes
53:24
that could diminish
53:26
SPEAKER_00: what I,
53:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:27
SPEAKER_00: have or,
53:28
SPEAKER_00: or want to think that I have.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: She is okay with,
53:34
SPEAKER_00: going there.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
53:35
SPEAKER_00: and,
53:37
SPEAKER_00: and that,
53:37
SPEAKER_00: that courage,
53:38
that willingness to be open to herself and vulnerable for the
53:41
rest of us really
53:42
SPEAKER_00: makes these really interesting examinations of,
53:46
SPEAKER_00: again,
53:46
SPEAKER_00: love,
53:47
SPEAKER_00: but also what do you want out of it?
53:48
SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to you?
53:49
SPEAKER_00: And what doesn't it mean to you?
53:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: And you really can only get to the, you know, deeper and deeper.
53:55
If,
53:55
if you're kind of sometimes willing to pull away the,
53:58
the masks that we,
54:00
we may wear,
54:01
um,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: out of propriety or, you know, again, shame or fear or any of that.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: It's remarkably brave while also uncomfortable.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's part of why I love the book too,
54:12
SPEAKER_00: is that it could be just this long love letter,
54:14
SPEAKER_00: but it's an examination of what she's going through and the grief.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: It isn't just about love, it is grief.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: And she has to live this grief
54:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, not just of losing him, but of losing him every day.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: And how do you maybe escape that for a moment?
54:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, exactly.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: So it is more than love.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: It is the grief process,
54:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:40
SPEAKER_00: which isn't necessarily like a process,
54:42
SPEAKER_00: but,
54:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:43
SPEAKER_00: living through that.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it is...
54:48
SPEAKER_00: is remarkable.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: And what you were saying too about even as her husband is still there,
54:53
SPEAKER_02: a lot of the time he is,
54:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
54:56
understandably unwilling or unable to talk about what's
54:58
happening to him and he will,
55:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:00
SPEAKER_02: be writing on his phone or he will,
55:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:03
he's a lot of it examines him kind of living hour to hour and
55:07
day to day until he
55:08
SPEAKER_02: can get more,
55:09
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:09
SPEAKER_02: painkillers because he's just in this incredible amount of pain.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: And so even sometimes when she's right there with him, he is, you know,
55:17
not really present because she's still alone she's still alone
55:20
so i think that's
55:21
what's interesting about the rest of that too is like she's
55:24
already beginning this
55:25
process of like he's going to leave does that mean it's the end
55:30
of me what does my
55:31
future look like and i think that's where that you know extra
55:35
messy wrinkle that
55:36
comes up begins to examine you know what does that mean for her
55:39
and her future and
55:41
SPEAKER_02: she is not dead and so yeah i don't know it's it's
55:46
SPEAKER_02: It's complicated,
55:46
SPEAKER_02: just like all of her books,
55:47
SPEAKER_02: which is why,
55:49
SPEAKER_02: despite their slim size,
55:50
SPEAKER_02: as you start to talk about them.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: They're layered and so much going on.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: And rereadable.
55:57
I think all of them are rereadable because you'll capture one
55:59
thread and follow it.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: And then another time, another one.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: It isn't just about the plots.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: But we get a little bit of the, not the answer.
56:09
SPEAKER_00: This is actually the anti-answer, but we get, stay with me.
56:14
next which I didn't know what it was about Paul I just was
56:17
excited about it yeah me
56:19
either I just kind of jumped in without knowing much about it
56:22
and here we have an
56:23
echo of Tiamo in many ways a follow up we have this you know
56:30
it's not explicit but
56:32
SPEAKER_00: we have this narrator again
56:35
After the death of a spouse,
56:37
still trying to grapple with where things are at.
56:41
How do you get through that and meet someone else and,
56:44
you know,
56:46
brave to love again?
56:47
SPEAKER_00: And yet, what a...
56:53
SPEAKER_00: Again, you think, oh, okay, now I know where this is going.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: No, this book is so much looser.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: I found this to be her most formally strange and experimental and...
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Elusive, maybe?
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, elusive for sure.
57:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: I think that's great.
57:13
But it is about the aftermath of grief and trying to understand
57:17
what love is.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: And I put this here,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: when that past trauma,
57:22
SPEAKER_00: not just of losing somebody,
57:24
but of all the things you've lost or all the times that you've
57:27
been abandoned or abused.
57:29
are part of that emotional foundation from which you're trying
57:32
to build a relationship.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: That's just one more layer.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: This loss of a spouse is just one more layer on this traumatic past.
57:43
SPEAKER_00: And yet she and her character in this book,
57:48
SPEAKER_00: Judith,
57:49
SPEAKER_00: we'll get into that in a minute,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: are trying to move on somehow.
57:56
SPEAKER_00: They have desire to,
57:58
SPEAKER_00: but they don't trust where it's leading them necessarily.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: So again, it's almost like here we have love or Tiamo.
58:08
And then we have stay with me,
58:09
which is like an author trying to write her next fictional novel.
58:15
And she has a character named Judith,
58:17
who is a lot like her,
58:18
who has lost somebody.
58:22
And yet that character just stands on a jetty looking at the
58:27
water and does not move.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: I cannot figure out the next spot.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: And the narrator, this person writing the book is like, I am.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: Why won't Judith open up?
58:38
SPEAKER_00: The story won't move.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: I've waited like mad.
58:41
SPEAKER_00: This is a quote.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: I've waited like mad for it to start happening.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: So that's like the setup of this book.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: Stay with me.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: It's really, again, quite a strange thing.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: And I was confused for some time because I was like, who is Judith?
58:55
SPEAKER_00: Why is Judith not moving on?
58:57
SPEAKER_00: But she's not really an independent character.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: She's like a state of mind almost.
59:04
And here we are with,
59:05
again,
59:06
Hannah Orstevik's alter ego,
59:09
this very close first person narrator,
59:12
SPEAKER_00: writing about herself, her own process, the next step after Tiamo.
59:19
No,
59:19
that's a great way of laying out a very,
59:21
like you said,
59:22
challenging book in a lot of ways.
59:23
And the meta aspects of it are interesting because at least on
59:28
some level,
59:28
you have Hanna Urcevic writing this book about a narrator who
59:32
is fairly closely
59:33
SPEAKER_02: associated with her and maybe directly associated with her.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: And then the narrator is writing a book about Judith,
59:40
SPEAKER_02: who again has some very strong echoes of,
59:43
so it's almost like these three voices that in many ways could
59:47
be compressed into
59:48
SPEAKER_02: one in some ways.
59:50
SPEAKER_02: So it's really interesting.
59:52
SPEAKER_02: And what you said about kind of her trying to rebuild her life
59:56
SPEAKER_02: But again, the theme of the past traumas coming up is haunting.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: And so if you don't mind, I was going to read a passage.
1:00:03
This is right from near the beginning that I think does a
1:00:06
really nice job of kind
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: of laying that out.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_02: It says, it had to do with love.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_02: With the word being taken so much for granted, I couldn't feel anything.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: The only thing I could feel was afraid.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_02: Afraid was real the whole time.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember how it would happen that Papa would get angry.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_02: It just did.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: You could knock a glass over or be late for dinner.
1:00:25
Your boot could have chafed your ankle while you were up on the fell,
1:00:28
so you needed a plaster.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_02: You could get a fishing lure stuck after a cast.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps you'd scribbled on the pad by the telephone,
1:00:35
or a school friend might come and ring the doorbell while we
1:00:38
were having our dinner.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't these things in themselves.
1:00:41
It was what they stood for,
1:00:43
not being thoughtful enough,
1:00:44
not being heedful.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't leaving the milk out.
1:00:47
It was being that sort of person,
1:00:50
the sort who's negligent,
1:00:51
thoughtless,
1:00:52
who never pays heed.
1:00:53
It seems like such a small thing when I write it down,
1:00:55
but it wasn't small.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_02: It was everything.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_02: The world was hard.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_02: Wrong was wrong when it could have been right.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: Afraid was a state of being.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know when it started.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_02: All I know is that I was afraid.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_02: Afraid was a skin beneath my skin that couldn't be shed.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:01:14
SPEAKER_02: so rough,
1:01:14
but that afraid was always there is something that carries
1:01:19
through and you can just
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: see without getting into details,
1:01:22
SPEAKER_02: too many,
1:01:23
but just the same thing that we've been talking about where
1:01:25
these past traumas
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: continue to shape people's lives and
1:01:29
hold them back or at least impact their decisions as they're
1:01:33
trying to move on and
1:01:34
SPEAKER_02: rebuild their lives or,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:01:36
SPEAKER_02: deal with new traumas.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: There's still underlying stuff from the past that just complicates it.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_02: It's powerful.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: And for,
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: for you,
1:01:45
as well as the person who you're trying to develop that
1:01:48
relationship with,
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: as we said before,
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: because this narrator,
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: this author is,
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: does find somebody who is, is it 17 years her junior?
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: I think 15, yeah, 15 years.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: Late 30s, and she's in her early 50s.
1:02:04
And this person has a bit of an anger streak and a violent
1:02:11
streak that makes her afraid.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: It reminds her of her father,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: who is still alive and whom she visits periodically throughout the novel.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: and kind of explores these.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: And when she's talking to her father,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: he's kind of talking about his own pain,
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: that he was somewhat of a victim.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, come on, dude, no way.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: Especially after the way this book opens.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: This has a very, well, it's the opening paragraph.
1:02:46
Should we read it,
1:02:46
Paul,
1:02:47
and see if it helps people go,
1:02:48
oh,
1:02:48
I want to keep going with that?
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_00: She's so good at those openings.
1:02:51
Or will this scare some people off and be like,
1:02:53
oh,
1:02:53
I don't want to go there.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bold.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: I guess we'll let you decide.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_00: Here's how the book starts.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: No one at home ever said they loved me.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_00: If I'd asked, I know they would have said yes, Mama and Papa.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: Of course they loved me.
1:03:09
Only I didn't ask,
1:03:11
part of the reason being that I didn't want Papa getting angry.
1:03:14
And of course,
1:03:14
it was such an unquestionable thing,
1:03:16
like God loving mankind.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: It's something, you know.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_00: Why couldn't I feel it?
1:03:22
SPEAKER_00: They never touched each other, caresses.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_00: There was no tenderness between them.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: Mama thought Papa was sentimental, pathetic, pitiful.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, she was afraid of him, afraid to death.
1:03:35
There'd been that business with the axe out in the fields in
1:03:38
the snow in the middle
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: of the night.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_00: Papa had been drinking homemade vodka, so Mama said.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_00: He went mad, ran wild, and jumped over the stone wall.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: I can see it in my mind's eye,
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: over the wall in one leap,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: in the snow so young and strong and lithe he must have been then.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: Papa...
1:03:55
Younger than M is now,
1:03:57
33 or 34,
1:03:59
but now Papa tells me it wasn't like that at all.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: He hadn't touched a drop, and he hadn't gone mad either.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: The axe part had been misunderstood.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: He hadn't been going for anyone,
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: but had taken the axe with him to use as a gavel,
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: like in court,
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: to emphasize something,
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: a standpoint.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: Most likely, they'd been talking politics.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: Your father's gone mad.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: He's running after people with an axe,
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: and it all ended with the vet injecting him with a sedative.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_00: It took several men to bring him down and keep him there.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: But the thing with the axe is such a long time ago now.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: Mama was pregnant with me when it happened, and it was only the once.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't Papa with an axe we were afraid of.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: We were just afraid.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: What was it we were so afraid of?
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: It had to do with love,
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: with the word being taken so much for granted,
1:04:52
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't feel anything.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's the start of this, again, very powerful book.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: You get introduced to M,
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: M,
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: the single initial,
1:05:05
that's the lover we will meet that's a generation younger than
1:05:11
our narrator,
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: which causes its own
1:05:16
insecurities in the narrator,
1:05:17
both about her physique,
1:05:18
but also about,
1:05:19
am I his mother?
1:05:21
SPEAKER_00: Is that how he sees me?
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: Just so much going on.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_02: So much going on in this book.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: That generational thing you mentioned,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: though,
1:05:31
SPEAKER_02: is so important because,
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: you don't end up by any means feeling empathy for...
1:05:36
SPEAKER_02: her dad.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: But by the time we're presented to him, he is frail and elderly.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's in his eighties.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_02: You get to see him in a different light.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_02: And it comes out over the course of the book that both him and Em,
1:05:50
SPEAKER_02: who both have these violent tendencies,
1:05:52
you get some ideas that a lot of that has been passed on to
1:05:55
them through the way
1:05:57
SPEAKER_02: that maybe they were raised and they were abused when they were younger.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_02: So again, just that through line of
1:06:03
SPEAKER_02: People doing their best,
1:06:04
but the traumas and complications being passed down from
1:06:08
generation to generation
1:06:09
SPEAKER_02: is so well done.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's almost explicit in this opening bit where this fear,
1:06:15
SPEAKER_00: this thing with the axe happened while the narrator was in utero.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:06:19
it's almost like this fear was transferred to her in the womb
1:06:23
and just becomes part
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: of her.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_00: And again,
1:06:27
SPEAKER_00: around and about all of this,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: we've got this Judith,
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: this most,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: a mirror that Orstevic's narrator is trying to write about constantly,
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: who's going through many of the same situations.
1:06:43
And so it's a book about writing and exploration through
1:06:47
writing and about not finding things.
1:06:51
Which again,
1:06:51
kind of takes us back to some of the stuff going on in the pastor.
1:06:54
It's a book about the answers not necessarily being the point
1:06:59
because you're just
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: not going to get there.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: So you've got to live through this other stuff.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, but it was a difficult book at times too.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: I will, I will just throw that out there.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_00: I,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: about 50,
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: 60 pages in,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: I,
1:07:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to say I don't like this yet,
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: but I'm not following,
1:07:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not figuring it out.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm not cracking the nut.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: And I still don't think I've cracked the nut,
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: but I at least got in there and know,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: I figured out more of what's going on with like Judith.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: Judith was very frustrating for me for a time because I was like,
1:07:37
why do we have this character that we just keep seeing doing
1:07:41
basically the same
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: thing the narrator is,
1:07:42
SPEAKER_00: but with much less movement?
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't get that for a bit.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_00: And I,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying I got it now,
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: but I've at least come to terms with what I,
1:07:52
SPEAKER_00: what I got here.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's pretty brilliant.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_02: No, I went through the same process.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: There was a time where I was wondering if that part was even necessary.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_02: I felt like it was getting in the way,
1:08:01
SPEAKER_02: but I kind of came to not only appreciate it,
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: but to really admire it by the end of the book.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_00: It highlights the narrator's paralysis.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: And the longing for love amidst this fear,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_00: it's an underline of that state of being and of her artistic paralysis.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: And here we are reading the product of that,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_00: which is not that book she was writing,
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: but something entirely different about the book that she was writing.
1:08:30
I mean,
1:08:31
this is what we get next when it was kind of intended to be
1:08:34
this book about Judith.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: It is about Judith, but...
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: Not.
1:08:38
And I'm wondering where Orstevik is going to go from all of
1:08:41
this because she's still young.
1:08:44
You know,
1:08:44
she's been publishing for 30 years,
1:08:47
but she's 55 years old is all.
1:08:50
I mean,
1:08:50
she could,
1:08:51
she's got a lot of years left,
1:08:54
you know,
1:08:54
presumably and a lot of potential.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: And she doesn't seem to be writing the same,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_00: even though the themes that we've talked about today,
1:09:02
SPEAKER_00: some of them,
1:09:02
SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of through lines.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: They're quite different books, nevertheless.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_02: They really are.
1:09:08
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about that as you were talking,
1:09:09
SPEAKER_02: like if I could even say which two are the most similar,
1:09:12
SPEAKER_02: I guess maybe like you said,
1:09:14
SPEAKER_02: Tiamo and Stay With Me would probably be the two,
1:09:17
SPEAKER_02: I guess would be close,
1:09:18
SPEAKER_02: most closely linked,
1:09:19
but they're structurally very different and even thematically
1:09:23
quite different.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you're right.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_02: Every book she does,
1:09:26
despite all these similarities and through length that we've
1:09:29
been talking about today,
1:09:30
SPEAKER_02: they really aren't anywhere near the same books.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I don't know where she'll go.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be interesting to see.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if she'll be like,
1:09:40
SPEAKER_02: like even from Archipelago's point of view,
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: whether like you said,
1:09:43
they're just going to publish her next new one or if we're
1:09:45
going to get some like,
1:09:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:09:47
fill-ins over the time is they kind of go back and look at her
1:09:50
back catalog.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited no matter what.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_00: And, and as we said before, we still have the blue room.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: So, so we'll, we've got more Orstevik in the, in the immediate future.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_00: We do.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_02: Let me ask real fast.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_02: Are you, so I told you, I'm pretty tempted to reread the pastor's
1:10:13
SPEAKER_02: next,
1:10:13
SPEAKER_02: just based on,
1:10:14
as I was digging back and realizing how much I did remember
1:10:17
more than I thought I did,
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: but also I know there's a lot I don't remember.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_02: So that's the one I'm most tempted to reread next.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: Are any of them calling out to you other than the Blue Room to revisit?
1:10:26
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
1:10:26
I actually think both Love and The Pastor are ones I would like
1:10:30
to reread sooner
1:10:31
SPEAKER_00: rather than later.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_00: They're short.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_00: I think I read Love the first time in
1:10:37
SPEAKER_00: a day or two.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, and almost also super short, almost sure.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: But I kind of revisit that one quite often.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure I'll keep on reading bits and pieces of that one.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: whether I'll read,
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_00: from start to finish,
1:10:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm not,
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: not sure on that one anytime soon and stay with me.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: I'll probably give it some time.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_00: but both love and the pastor,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: I just enjoyed them so much the first time I would like to reread.
1:11:03
I mean,
1:11:03
these are,
1:11:03
again,
1:11:04
as we said,
1:11:04
short,
1:11:04
but layered books that are,
1:11:06
I think,
1:11:06
SPEAKER_00: kind of perfect for rereading and unpacking.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_00: And as they relate to one another,
1:11:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:11
SPEAKER_00: when I first read the pastor,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: it was,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: I had no knowledge of the other books that,
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: that she's written and that we have access to.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: So what will be different this time around,
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: because I'll be more aware of,
1:11:25
SPEAKER_00: of,
1:11:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:26
SPEAKER_00: that perspective in the background.
1:11:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: Even while I was reading stay with me over the last week or so,
1:11:34
SPEAKER_02: I actually did go ahead and reread Tiamo.
1:11:38
And what you just said is so true of just for such a relatively
1:11:43
slim book that I
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: thought I had in my mind,
1:11:45
SPEAKER_02: like I'll reread it,
1:11:46
SPEAKER_02: but I probably won't,
1:11:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:48
SPEAKER_02: get that much out of it because I read it relatively recently.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_02: No, it was a completely different book.
1:11:53
So yeah,
1:11:54
every time that you do that,
1:11:55
I think like you said,
1:11:56
she's one of those where
1:11:58
SPEAKER_02: There are so many layers that I think every time you reread it,
1:12:00
SPEAKER_02: it'll be a whole different experience.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm very, very curious about her back catalog.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_00: How much of this is already in there?
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: How fully formed is this style throughout the career?
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: And I just don't know.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming there may be a listener or two out there who has read
1:12:21
SPEAKER_00: some of these in other languages,
1:12:22
SPEAKER_00: if not the original Norwegian,
1:12:24
SPEAKER_00: maybe they've been translated into others.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_00: Can you let us know a favor?
1:12:28
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:12:28
SPEAKER_00: we often ask these questions at the end of episodes,
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: let us know how you felt about this.
1:12:32
And we are earnest,
1:12:35
but can you do us a favor here and let us know on this one?
1:12:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm very curious about, about that.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_02: That's a really good idea.
1:12:46
SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear from anyone that could fill us in.
1:12:49
And if any industry insiders have heard any glimmers of
1:12:53
anything else that might be
1:12:54
SPEAKER_02: coming down the pike,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_02: of course,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear that too.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea if there even is something like that happening,
1:12:59
but if anybody knows what the next steps for Archipelago or
1:13:03
Orstevik might be,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear that too.
1:13:07
Yeah,
1:13:07
we'll have to start looking into it ourselves,
1:13:09
I guess,
1:13:10
a little bit.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, Paul, it's very nice to sit down and chat with you today.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_00: As always, I'm looking forward to our next episode.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to tell listeners a little bit about what we have in store?
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm happy to.
1:13:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited for our next one.
1:13:27
A lot of our listeners are probably very familiar with our
1:13:31
guest who will be
1:13:32
SPEAKER_02: joining us,
1:13:33
SPEAKER_02: Mr.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_02: Chris Villa,
1:13:34
who has the amazing Leaf by Leaf YouTube channel that we've
1:13:37
talked about so many times.
1:13:38
And he has done so many great videos over the years on a
1:13:42
variety of different topics.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_02: But one of the ones that was one of my favorites,
1:13:47
SPEAKER_02: kind of that he comes back to is this idea of big books.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_02: He has read
1:13:52
SPEAKER_02: And dissected so many big books over the years.
1:13:54
SPEAKER_02: And I think he's just a master at it.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_02: And so we thought that would be a great topic to have him on.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to chat about big books in general,
1:14:03
SPEAKER_02: name some favorites,
1:14:04
SPEAKER_02: but also just talk about maybe,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: approaches,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: strategies,
1:14:08
SPEAKER_02: why we love them,
1:14:09
SPEAKER_02: how to approach them,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:14:11
SPEAKER_02: things like that.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's going to be a great conversation.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited about it, too.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: And just also to remind listeners about the Discord server,
1:14:21
SPEAKER_00: if you'd like to join us and other listeners over there.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_00: It's been really fun.
1:14:26
SPEAKER_00: There's some lively conversations.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_00: And this very week,
1:14:29
we've been doing the first of our novella readalongs of First
1:14:33
Love by Turgenev.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_00: And so in July,
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: we'll be doing our next one,
1:14:40
SPEAKER_00: which we've already talked about all of this,
1:14:42
SPEAKER_00: but that'll be about Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_00: And then in September, Muriel Sparks...
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: The Prime of Miss Jean Brody.
1:14:52
SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to join to read those novellas or to discuss them.
1:14:57
There's a lot of other fun conversation going on about books
1:15:00
and things that are
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: coming out,
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: things that have come out,
1:15:03
SPEAKER_00: book calls.
1:15:04
It's just fun to see people and to get to carry these
1:15:08
conversations into a little bit more of a
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: of a, I don't know.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say closed space.
1:15:14
It's not like that,
1:15:14
but not so much other activity like you might find on other
1:15:18
social media.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_00: It's just for, just for this kind of talk.
1:15:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a lot of fun.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join us if you haven't done so already.
1:15:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_02: That would be fun.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_00: All right,
1:15:28
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
1:15:29
SPEAKER_00: you have a good rest of this weekend,
1:15:33
SPEAKER_00: and we will see you in a couple weeks to talk about big books.
1:15:36
How many big books are you going to read between now and our
1:15:39
episode to prepare for it?
1:15:40
SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
1:15:41
You know,
1:15:41
you figure if you go through a couple a day,
1:15:44
I mean,
1:15:44
I should be able to get 20,
1:15:46
25.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm excited.
1:15:49
Just so you know,
1:15:50
we'll talk about this,
1:15:51
but I did look back on this year.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_00: You and I both have read some big books this year, so we've...
1:15:57
SPEAKER_00: We've got some things that have worked for us and we figured out.
1:16:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to see if it's working,
1:16:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:16:03
SPEAKER_00: long term or,
1:16:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:16:04
SPEAKER_00: if we even notice anymore that,
1:16:06
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:16:06
SPEAKER_00: we just read a big book.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_00: I just pointed out to you,
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: I finished Proust's Within a Budding Grove,
1:16:12
SPEAKER_00: volume two of his magnum opus.
1:16:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's 730 pages, Paul.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_02: I always forget not only that the seven book cycle is so big,
1:16:24
SPEAKER_02: but the individual books,
1:16:26
SPEAKER_02: I forget that they were that big.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the next one's even bigger.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_00: It's like 800 and something.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_02: So you'll have plenty to talk about.
1:16:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_00: I've been plugging away and that's how I've learned to do it and love it.
1:16:40
SPEAKER_00: So if listeners,
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: if you want to join in on that conversation a little bit,
1:16:44
SPEAKER_00: share some of your thoughts,
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: you can send them to us however you would like to.
1:16:50
SPEAKER_00: But we also have a little thread open on our Discord.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_00: People are already talking about big books.
1:16:55
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:16:55
We'd love to hear some of your favorites,
1:16:57
some of the ones that you are looking forward to.
1:16:59
And if you have your own strategies or relationships with the
1:17:03
idea of big books,
1:17:04
SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear what people think.
1:17:05
SPEAKER_02: Because I know there's a spectrum, shall we say.
1:17:08
I think some people are drawn to them and love them just
1:17:10
because they're big.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_02: Some people are afraid of them and avoid them just because they're big.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, anything like that too, I'd love to hear from people.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:17:19
SPEAKER_00: I think this time I am genuinely ready to go.
1:17:23
SPEAKER_00: Paul, we'll talk to you later.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: See you.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_00: Bye, everybody.
1:17:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
1:17:37
If you enjoyed the bookish banter,
1:17:39
we have more than 100 past episodes for you to dive into.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: You can find us on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
1:17:48
And be sure to follow us on Blue Sky and Instagram at MOOCs and
1:17:53
at Bibliopal for
1:17:54
SPEAKER_00: more bookish musings and updates.
1:17:57
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1:17:58
rants,
1:17:59
or a hot take on what we discussed,
1:18:01
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1:18:02
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1:18:04
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1:18:10
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1:18:20
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1:18:24
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1:18:27
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1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: May you keep exploring great books until next time.