Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Luke Sims-Jenkins about his choice of Earthshock (4/4)

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Talks to Luke Sims-Jenkins about his choice of Earthshock (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blunt pen. Knife for doing quicker,
0:35
quicker. Hello, everyone, and welcome
0:39
back to a Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who
0:42
Commentary Podcast. My name is Luke Sims Jenkins,
0:45
and I'm here with a Mr. Joe Ford.
0:47
Say hello, Mr. Joe Ford. Hello, I'm Jay.
0:51
What? Luke, right.
0:52
Yeah, I have to say, if after listening to these 4 episodes of
0:57
Earth Shock with us, yeah, where we were basically climaxing at
1:03
the at the end of the last episode with such excitement
1:07
with everything that was going on.
1:08
If people aren't reaching for their shelves to pull off this
1:13
fabulous DVD to watch it. Well, boom, boom, boom.
1:18
Our time's been wasted. Oh, it's been glorious, hasn't
1:21
it? Yeah, this is this has been
1:24
great and I I'll say it now, I don't think it's, I didn't say
1:29
it in the first 3, but this has got like a special place in my
1:34
heart because I didn't know that Andrew died.
1:37
So like I got that impact. It's it's a fucking cool story
1:41
to see when you're 10 or 11. There is that, but this is like
1:46
a, a story that I've probably seen maybe as much as the five
1:51
doctors and things like that, just cause like that excitement
1:54
level and, and kind of impact and you just kind of want to
1:57
rewatch it and want to relive it.
1:59
So there's, that's always been a part of my life.
2:04
But it's also the first story that I covered on the modern
2:08
chess club. So I've got that extra bit of a
2:11
bit of attachment to it as well. So it's the, it's the first one,
2:16
it's the one I'm most nervous about.
2:17
So I don't know if anyone can hear the nerves.
2:20
He might have been able to see them, but no, I can.
2:23
Hear the nerves before you started and the second you
2:26
started we were just talking. So I'm, I'm, I get nervous about
2:30
this podcast, that podcast in a way I don't about the wrestling
2:34
1. And I think it's because like,
2:36
it's just me and Mr. Andy every episode, you know, and we're
2:40
good mates. We know how to talk to each
2:42
other and stuff like that. It's a thrill ride every time.
2:46
You don't know who it's it's. It can be terrifying to record
2:50
your first conversation with someone you know.
2:51
It's like. Yeah, but I love.
2:56
It now, but as soon as Doctor Who comes up, everyone, everyone
3:00
is just like, oh, we're talking Doctor Who now.
3:01
Oh, I know this. I can do this and all this.
3:04
Any social anxiety or awkwardness that a lot of nerds
3:07
have is out the window and the next hour and a bit has gone and
3:14
we had a great time, so yeah. The glue that binds us all
3:17
together. That's right.
3:20
And I think, I think someone's going to need some glue to bind
3:24
them, to bind them all together up there.
3:28
Well, no, I think. Did I not see a little
3:30
plasticine Adric there in a cave on a little special featurette
3:36
being eaten by Tyrannosaurus Rex?
3:38
We'll see in time flight. I wanted to see in the
3:41
background the Earth shock ship coming towards like Earth to you
3:45
know that. Would not see man well from 40
3:49
towers setting up on prehistoric earth with like a load of
3:54
scorpions or something and a Paul Miles story.
3:58
Oh, I have not heard that in years.
4:01
So I really enjoyed it. It's batshit, but I did enjoy
4:06
it. Yeah, no, it's it's on my list.
4:09
I'm very happy that Paul Mars has at least 5 or 6 Davos
4:15
stories I can think of at the top of my head that I'll get the
4:18
I've covered 1 pop Peterloo Massacre Lady of.
4:23
Mercia Ring. Pool World.
4:25
XLS What Ring Pool World is a buyer?
4:29
Oh yeah, XLS. Yeah, Lady Mercia boy, time
4:33
forgot. I don't know, Like I haven't
4:36
touched any books that we've book club before yet because I
4:39
want a bit of time before I reread them to me be fresh.
4:42
But he's also got the wonderful Alice in Wonderland book too, so
4:45
yeah. Gosh, yes, yeah.
4:48
You want to know who writes really shitty books?
4:50
And I have one shitty book left of his to read.
4:53
It's the writer of of Earth Shock, Mr. Eric's award.
4:57
At some point I will have to read the Visitation.
5:02
Oh. No, Lucy McCall says.
5:04
That's great. No, the TV story.
5:07
Does she think the book's great, though?
5:09
I know. I think she does like the book
5:10
as well, yeah. I think she does OK.
5:15
Well, I, I, I've never heard anyone comment about it.
5:18
All of these other books I've heard but no one's ever never
5:23
mentioned whether that one's particularly good or bad.
5:26
Some targets that well actually have on the.
5:28
List me neither. The only ones I know are the
5:30
ones I've covered for the Viral chess club and the ones I'll be
5:35
covering in in in the future, so I've.
5:37
Been saying it's an uncommon occurrence in my life but it's
5:40
just a a sea of Dicks isn't it you know?
5:45
Yeah, most of them not. So I really want, you know,
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love, you know, terrible. You'd rather a sea of cyber
5:51
bombs? Well, talking a lot, my army
5:57
awaits Dr. Should we go and watch episode 4?
6:01
I mean, I'm not sure if you thought I was excited in the
6:05
last one. The last 10 minutes of this good
6:07
grief. Boom boom magic.
6:10
Yeah, you know something big is going to happen.
6:12
I didn't know how it was going to end, but even I could have.
6:15
I know there's just this vibe. It's it, it's, I call it the
6:19
sick feeling in your gut and it happens so rarely.
6:22
It happens in mind warp as well. You just know this is not going
6:29
in the direction of a normal Doctor Who story and things are
6:32
not right. Yeah.
6:35
Oh well, let's explore it. Props to a time travel show
6:38
where anything can happen for them.
6:40
For actually sticking with this, it's a it keeps the impact.
6:45
Well, they do have to chat, don't they?
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You know, we should go back and rescue him.
6:48
Now look. We mustn't mourn unnecessarily.
6:53
Let's get out of here. Unnecessarily.
6:56
Are you kidding me? I'm to mourn someone's dead,
6:59
yeah. I still don't know what's the
7:00
better approach, you know, the one minute scene in Timefly or
7:04
the 500 million billion years in Heaven Sent?
7:08
I mean, there must be a happy medium somewhere.
7:11
Yeah. Charity, I think liked that one
7:16
a bit more than me. I remember watching, we were
7:19
halfway through that story and I turned to I'm like, is this all
7:23
that's going to happen? And yeah, yeah, sorry.
7:27
And then I then I find out that like it's a well regarded banger
7:30
that everybody absolutely loves it.
7:32
I'm like, Oh no, I feel bad, but yeah.
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Oh, boring. Oh my.
7:38
God. And then the worst thing of all,
7:39
the cliffhanger. He's on Gallifrey.
7:43
Oh God, I know right. The horror it like as if it
7:47
couldn't get any more boring than that.
7:50
Oh good grief. I mean look at this mid 80s
7:53
sideman bombs, companions dying. Come on now, that's how you make
7:57
Doctor Who. Yeah.
7:58
All right. Oh, it's doing.
8:01
It's doing, yeah. OK, well we'll go into Earth
8:05
Shock episode 4 in three 21. Excellent.
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It's. That beautiful star field.
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I know, right? Oh, here he comes.
8:22
Sort of Venetian blind effects, you know, as his face comes in.
8:26
Oh yeah, like like a bit WAVY. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:29
I can see the Venetian thing. I wonder how they got those sort
8:33
of, you know, the the lights coming out towards you.
8:35
How do they make that happen? I I don't know.
8:41
Come on, Davidson expert. Do you think they sort?
8:44
Of. Reflected something or something
8:46
like. That's not a special effect, is
8:47
it? That's just a lighting effect, I
8:49
think. Quite.
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Possible you could do like you could achieve that kind of
8:52
effect without tilting a camera in a certain way.
8:55
Oh my God, a how are me a Cyberman there?
8:59
We go. This is piracy.
9:04
If there's war. Oh, look at she now she gives it
9:08
some welly because when the Cybermen throw her about, she
9:10
really does sort of go, oh, I'm a poor old.
9:15
Well, look at this. Fucking forget Tegan Jovanka,
9:18
it's Ellen Ripley we've got in this episode.
9:21
It is dude. She all right.
9:24
Look, this might predate Aliens, but there's a mishmash of both
9:31
Alien and Aliens in this. Like, look at her in the
9:34
coveralls with the short hair. She's got a gun.
9:38
She's ready to go through this cruise line at the blast.
9:41
I meant she is kind of Ripley like, isn't she?
9:44
Oh yes, I forgot that Nisa existed here she is.
9:48
Professor Kyle, of course. Who?
9:51
Professor Kyle only goes into this part of the story to be
9:54
murdered, doesn't she? Yeah, I think that's a bit much,
9:58
but I also want to point out that Professor Kyle is fucking
10:03
boring. If you're going to swap clothes,
10:06
you swap clothes. You don't nick down to the
10:07
TARDIS wardrobe to wear other clothes.
10:10
You should be in the frigging air Hostess outfit right now,
10:13
all right? I love Barrel Reed looking at a
10:17
while while they're talking tetna Babble going, yes, I
10:19
really understand everything that you're all saying yes.
10:22
Are these are these real words? Just.
10:25
Darling, that's all right. Do you know what I was thinking?
10:29
You know, whilst I was making a cup of tea between episodes 3
10:33
and 4, the OR was it 2 and three that you know?
10:37
I would love to have seen Mel in this story doing the Teigen
10:40
role, going around with a big gum.
10:46
I I reckon that might work if Bush came to shove.
10:49
I can see her pulling, pulling a trigger.
10:50
I. Remember when she had that gun
10:51
in Delta and the Bunamine? You know she was threatening the
10:54
Bunamine. I won't give up her and Colin in
10:57
in in season 24 with Sil for anything, but I think she would
11:02
have gone along really well with David.
11:05
Oh, she, the more I watch her, the more I fit.
11:09
Great. I think it's just oh, here we
11:11
go, here's all the exposition. Yeah, night against the Cyber
11:15
Force. Their combined forces would be
11:17
too great, he says. So the, it's maybe it's the Ian
11:23
Levine factor of this era where you've where you can't just have
11:27
an old monster appear now they've got to have like the
11:30
back story of where they've been.
11:32
You get that in resurrection. Like we got to get the the
11:34
fucking biography of Davros before we can move on.
11:38
And look, that's fine, I guess. And I've said it in other
11:41
episodes that like if I'm a if I can't get access to all this
11:44
kind of stuff, I find I do find that kind of cool, but I also
11:49
just like that Evil of the dialects is not a sequel to
11:53
power of the Dialects. You know, it's just a story that
11:56
has the Daleks in it. Like it's another story, like
11:59
Dalek Invasion of Earth. I know they trumpet as a sequel,
12:03
but doesn't feel like 1. You know, it's, it's, it's its
12:05
own thing. That woman who's with Lieutenant
12:11
Scott, yeah, she's got a wonderful power.
12:13
She keeps getting great close-ups.
12:16
She's the one that tries to go into the TARDIS and the side man
12:20
just jumps out the shadows and grabs hold of her and she
12:24
screams. It's a great shot moment.
12:27
I like that though she doesn't have any lines you can get a
12:30
kind of pound on and. I like the way the the side man
12:33
went. It would be a great
12:35
psychological victory. But your interference, we will
12:43
still triumph. It's such a harm.
12:48
The actual thing of the Cybermen being animated in this episode
12:55
makes it one of the reasons why this episode is is remembered.
13:00
I kind of like there we go. That's a great jump moment as
13:03
well where Tegan is suddenly they they grab her from behind.
13:08
And it's such a normal person thing, like if she was like a
13:11
trained soldier, no problem, Bang Bang bang, turn around,
13:15
Bang Bang. But she's not.
13:16
Oh how fuck how good this. Is look, watch how good this is
13:19
that when she's grabbed you just don't get shock moments like
13:22
this. It's so quick.
13:24
Look round there, got her. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:28
And. Then we're doing the
13:29
unthinkable. We're doing the unthinkable now.
13:32
We are firing guns in the console room.
13:36
Yeah, now I guess you could argue that Castro Valva maybe
13:41
knocked out the temporal grace or who cares, the guns going off
13:45
and the TARDIS is fucking. Called.
13:46
The console's exploding everywhere.
13:50
It's a Professor Cole. He's down.
13:54
Oh, I love the way the side mouse sort of slides down the
13:57
closing doors He goes. Great stuff.
14:04
Oh, did you see Nyssa when she grabbed the door control?
14:07
It was so over the top. She's going just trying to get
14:11
it, get the door shut. Hey, this is her one moment.
14:14
This whole story, she's going to sell it.
14:19
No, she still gets a great melodramatic line reading.
14:21
I want things to settle. I think Janet's lucky because
14:26
Turley will get a bit of TARDIS things to do in some of his ears
14:30
as well. The Five Doctors.
14:31
I'm pointing at Tegan's one of those lucky companions that
14:34
because of her personality of. No, I need to be with the
14:38
Doctors. What about Andrew?
14:39
What about, too? Are we going to.
14:42
She has a force of personality that is in written into her
14:45
character. That means Tegan must be in the
14:49
thick of it somewhere. Yeah, at some in every story
14:53
that almost every story she's in and.
14:56
I think so all. That's what so all think she's
14:58
the most interesting, doesn't he?
15:00
Yeah, Davison didn't know, did it?
15:02
He wanted him and Nisa. Yeah.
15:05
And I think that does bear fruit with Big Finish.
15:09
So I don't think he was way off the bat.
15:10
I think you needed a better writer of Nisa though to to make
15:15
that work. Look, I was disappointed when
15:17
Janet Janet said no, but I wouldn't give away those 5th
15:21
Doctor Nisa Nisa era for the world.
15:24
Even the the shitter ones like I still kind of unlike that whole.
15:29
They're pretty consistent. I don't think there's many dogs.
15:33
No, maybe the third of that Stockbridge trilogy.
15:36
I didn't. Plague of the dialects.
15:38
Was it the first one? Terrific moment there where he
15:42
threatens Tegan and it keeps cutting to Davidson's face and
15:46
he's doing it all with his face. And I think the director waits
15:50
long enough for you to think, fucking hell, she is going to be
15:52
short because we've waited about 10 seconds and then right at the
15:57
last minute he goes no. It's pretty good to like he
16:02
pulls that off with a relatively youthful slash unlined kind of
16:07
face, whereas there are other doctors up to this point.
16:10
And I guess more in terms of his style, I'm talking about maybe
16:14
Trout and he's also got he's got more of the foreign kind of
16:18
wrinkles, the kind of ads and sells to a lot of his reactions.
16:21
I just don't think you, you don't have to always give him
16:24
dialogue like he can. Just he can.
16:26
That old William Hartnell line, he can do it with a look.
16:29
The scene where he confronts Davros in Resurrection, he's got
16:33
the gun in his face and Davros is basically saying you're weak.
16:37
And the the camera stays on Davison and the things he's
16:40
doing with his face is so complex, far more complex than
16:43
the script is. Yeah, look, Saywood could write
16:52
an action blockbuster. He's the Michael Bay of Doctor
16:55
Who. You know, like Michael Bay who
16:58
does all these Like you might think you're so fucking hell,
17:01
Transformers 9, dude, they all make a lot of money in their
17:04
bonkers, dumb action flicks. All right, All right, If you
17:08
don't know the Michael Bay reference, he is the Fast and
17:11
Furious of Doctor Who writers, I guess.
17:15
Big, dumb, crazy. You're not going in there for
17:17
deep character or plot, but you're going to have a good time
17:20
with some cheese and. But that's why you have Davison
17:23
there. That's why you bring in good
17:25
actors that can find complexities just in their
17:29
acting, but sometimes isn't there in the script.
17:32
I think that's absolutely OK. I think Elizabeth Sladen did
17:35
that all the time with Sarah Jane Smith.
17:37
It wasn't always there in the script, but she always found
17:39
interesting things to do. There was an incredible shot
17:43
just then. Of Davison behind the Cybermen
17:46
like that. I like that shot.
17:47
You had the Cybermen either side of the camera, you had the
17:50
Cyberman stuck in the door behind them, and then you had a
17:54
sideman go out over there. It was just full of sidemen and
17:57
loads of people. People are expensive.
18:01
If you've got a lot of people in a shot, that's an expensive
18:03
shot, yeah. Always remember that old Monty
18:07
Python gag of them getting pissed off that one of the
18:09
extras talked so now they have to pay more and they're
18:12
realising that was this is the moment.
18:14
Luke, isn't it where you realise when Adric says I'm staying
18:17
behind, just go. And when he says goodbye, like,
18:22
like, that's unusual. We don't get goodbye scenes in
18:26
the middle of Part 4 usually. Yeah.
18:29
And. Adric just said saying goodbye
18:30
to Tegan like that. I know they weren't like
18:33
friends, but Titigan is a consistent person of whether she
18:39
likes you in the TARDIS or not. When we're when we're out and
18:42
about, I'm going to do what I can to kind of make sure you're
18:45
OK, but that is. That is, you know, what that
18:49
could have been so exploited like now, if you'd had a
18:53
relationship between two companions which was
18:56
antagonistic and then one of them died.
19:00
And Tegan's not very nice to Adric.
19:02
There should be a lot to deal with there as consequences of
19:06
him dying of about how she feels.
19:08
And we've done books, haven't we, where they've, they've
19:11
probed into it quite a bit, but it's just not where the TV show
19:16
was at this point, no. No, look, I'm, I'm still
19:22
surprised that after the best of both worlds, we've got family,
19:25
you know, in next generation they didn't want to do it.
19:28
They did not want to do it and the Michael Paler insisted and
19:33
he went. We can't do this and not deal
19:35
with the consequences of it, but.
19:38
That was that was 80s kind of that was 80s TV or early 90s TV.
19:43
D Space 9. So good.
19:44
You know, they were always dealing with consequences in
19:46
that show. You can't go anywhere.
19:49
You can't piss off on shit that looks like a old Star Star Trek
19:54
communicator as well. She just has to do a flip motion
19:56
and something to pop out. We got it.
19:59
There's your. Typical Nessa line.
20:00
The magnetic field is functioning again.
20:04
Thank you. Sarah, does that mean what
20:06
magnetic field? Where are the fucking magnets?
20:08
What's going on? They're.
20:11
Always getting less fun lines now given time I'm sure.
20:16
So she's sort of just doing functional lines now.
20:20
Yeah, wow. Side men look next to Pete
20:24
Davidson and Janet Field like I. Got a phone of myself standing
20:28
next to Davidson. I'm between him and Janet and
20:31
Hyatt. I'm Tom Cruise fight really.
20:33
So like, I'm not that tall and he's he's he's not a short man.
20:37
But look, David Banks, like if he had turned up in wrestling,
20:42
I'd have believed it. Like, you know, one of these
20:44
big, larger than life kind of guys.
20:46
And I know he would have been a good wrestler because there's a
20:49
bit of pageantry in camp and wrestling too, Mr. Joe.
20:52
And we both know that he can rock an outfit and he can camp
20:56
it up. So he would have been a awesome
20:57
bad guy. Big boot with one of the moon
21:00
boots. I know that.
21:02
This episode has to jump through hoops in order to set up the
21:08
climax, like it has to go back in time 350 million years in
21:13
order for the climax of the story to make sense.
21:17
But. All of the lead.
21:21
UPS of that cutting back to Adric.
21:23
It gets one circuit right, it gets another circuit right.
21:26
Oh my God, he's going to be able to stop it.
21:28
No. Then it's suddenly travelling
21:30
back in time like the. The pacing of it, the.
21:33
Momentum is great, but then the the shocking inevitability of
21:40
the freighter having to hit the earth is one of the best pieces
21:45
of dramatic irony we've ever had.
21:48
Where Adric can't succeed otherwise the human race would
21:53
never exist. It's such a great dream.
22:00
You're like OK I don't know how we got here but fuck that is so
22:04
brilliant. Yeah, it.
22:08
Is great you're. Sort of worrying for.
22:11
Him because he's Adric and you want the companion to survive,
22:14
but at the same time, you know I want to exist, so I don't want
22:18
the dinosaurs around anymore. I know they've brought it up in
22:21
little bits and pieces, more in audio, but Nisa, poor Nisa,
22:24
doesn't even get to say a proper goodbye to Adric.
22:27
Yeah, see, that's and and there was always a very gentle
22:32
relationship between the two of them.
22:34
So that was worth exploring as well.
22:37
I think that's the fault of Timefly and Eric's award, not
22:42
dealing with that. It doesn't blunt the impact of
22:47
what happens here. But having said that, like look.
22:50
I'm an 11 year old kid. I just cried my arms out last
22:53
week. Can we just go on with the
22:54
adventure, please? Yeah, now I.
22:56
Get it? And it's an adventure show.
22:58
It's not, you know, it's not a character drama.
23:01
It's not a period piece, is it? I get it, someone should have.
23:05
Told the makers of like in season 3 that because as soon as
23:08
the Starlucks master plan is finished we go to the very happy
23:11
event. No, just kidding me.
23:13
Go to all I all. I need to do in my life was to
23:16
see barrel Reed with the cyber gun and now I have come on lad
23:24
she goes she when they go through this time we will not
23:30
fail. I love.
23:32
Yeah, the the silver makeup on the chin is an easy makeup thing
23:37
to do. Have them have the chin plate be
23:40
see through it, it it, it adds something.
23:45
It's grisly. Though, isn't it?
23:46
There's the thought that that's a person under there.
23:51
And I, and I think nobody. Does the whole console room is
23:55
spun on an axis better than Davidson grabbing that console
23:59
hanging? Look, Tegan will let him know
24:03
that he that what's going on this time, you know?
24:05
And then cue the TARDIS console acting.
24:09
Do you remember that? Wonderful bit in Time Flight
24:12
where he goes in through the TARDIS doors in the hole when
24:15
it's on its side and he comes down into the console room.
24:18
I mean, it's a serious bit of acting because all he's doing is
24:22
sliding along the floor. I want to see how I want to come
24:30
on. The best bit of Tardis
24:31
manoeuvring he ever did was throwing that chair into the gap
24:34
in Terminus. And isn't this, isn't this the
24:37
Doctor episode with the single most amount of classics?
24:40
Oh sorry, the single most amount of setups and shots and scenes.
24:46
I think it it's like 3 or 4 times what you'd normally have.
24:49
And look, it just cuts from thing to thing to thing all the
24:52
time. Did they release a movie?
24:53
Edit of this because I could understand them if they ever if
24:56
they had done something like that.
24:58
It does have more cuts. This does feel like
25:01
cliffhangers. Luke, you know.
25:03
You were right about like saying that stars have to align in 80s
25:07
Doctor Who. Even 70s Doctor Who was riddled
25:09
with strikes, right? Yeah, the stars have to align,
25:12
otherwise something's going to be a bit, a bit off.
25:16
But those cyber guns? Are fucking cold as well.
25:20
They had the time. They they they didn't miss a
25:22
week here they had the time to do right let's do 8 cuts here.
25:26
We can edit from these angles and this angle so we can put it
25:28
all together like that. I just to I think the.
25:34
Fact that he managed to get it in the can, all of these scenes,
25:38
like Moffett says in the documentary, is that he goes,
25:41
you know what, nowadays, yeah, if you gave me a camera crew, he
25:45
goes. I could pretty much, I think
25:48
because they everyone's so good at their jobs and we rehearse
25:51
record and I could pretty much, I think, muddle my way through
25:56
directing something. Now he goes single camera in
26:00
those studios with all of those setups.
26:04
He goes, I wouldn't have a clue. He goes, I couldn't do it.
26:07
And on the money that they had, I just wouldn't.
26:10
Like he is so complimentary of what Peter Greenwich achieves
26:13
here. Oh my God, the freight is
26:15
heading for Earth. It's all going to shit.
26:20
Look, we. Keep coming back to this damaged
26:22
Cyberman as well. He'll be important.
26:28
Oh, Adric. No go in the shuttle, don't hang
26:30
about I guess. This is the first time to admit
26:34
that when I gave it a slight rewatch to finish off my rewatch
26:38
earlier before the recording, I did watch the updated effects
26:42
just for shits and gigs. And the Earth isn't modern Earth
26:48
in that version. It's got the, you know, the
26:50
continents all smushed together and stuff like that.
26:53
There's a lovely. Zoom on the Earth in the new one
26:56
isn't there? Oh it's very traumatic.
26:59
I think the the the most savvy directional choice though is
27:02
when he died is that he picks up that his brother's belt.
27:07
Yeah, that's really moving. But Vash I.
27:10
Think his name was. Was that it?
27:11
Yeah. Oh sure, the Shadowcroft.
27:13
That's fabulous. There's Australia.
27:17
There's Australia. I'm sorry, it's going to be here
27:20
in any minute. No, the Aussie Dinos, I wonder.
27:27
If you know, I wonder if Atrix DNA somehow is the creation of
27:33
the entire human race. Well, it doesn't explain why I'm
27:38
so terrible at mathematics, Mr. Joseph.
27:40
That's. Very true.
27:41
Yeah, right. You've just managed to dispel
27:43
that theory. Oh, I love this.
27:46
Now listen, there's a bit of history.
27:48
Remember when we was in that cave?
27:49
We saw those bones? You lie.
27:51
Doctor. Yeah, with.
27:53
Those bones. Now how did the tall sauce get
27:55
wiped out? And Tegan goes, well, you know,
27:57
the freighter crashed into the earth.
27:59
Oh, my God, Patrick's gonna die. But I still think, we think that
28:07
the doctor could still land there and get him out.
28:11
Well, I, I like, I like it because there's they've put it
28:14
in even Eric Siewert is like smart enough to be like, boy,
28:18
it's travelling through time. It's going pretty fast.
28:21
The coordinates for the Doctor's TARDIS, which and him flying the
28:25
TARDIS that accurately, that's probably not going to happen.
28:28
So I totally I I totally get the stakes of like, oh, OK, that
28:33
can't go back. Oh, now, now the.
28:37
Doctor's been smug. You failed leader.
28:40
And this is great, the way they all together murdered a cyber
28:43
leader. That's teamwork here.
28:46
I love that. That's teamwork.
28:49
To kill, Yes, look at that. Scrunch the badge straight into
28:54
his breathing apparatus. Quick shot of Tegan's.
28:57
Bite there. So like, all right, yeah, OK.
29:00
Catering for. Everybody.
29:01
Oh, there we go. Janet Fielden.
29:03
Screams doesn't she? Because the console exploded and
29:06
the sparks hit, hit the back of her head and burn her.
29:09
That's why she speaks out loud. That's fucking acting.
29:12
Mr. Matthew Waterhouse I also saw sparks firing out of
29:15
multiple Cybermen as well, so it's going to be kind of
29:18
frequent. I his noises of fucking.
29:25
Pacifist 5th Doctor my arse. He's pushing that gun right in
29:29
his chest and blasting him to hell.
29:32
That's point blank. Yeah.
29:35
Oh, my God. We must get Adric off the
29:37
freighter. Luke, come on.
29:38
Set the coordinates. I I.
29:40
Like a doctor that doesn't use guns, but if he absolutely have
29:47
to, has to like that's the kind of situation like I'm I'm OK
29:51
with it. I know a lot of people keep
29:52
watching this. They'll be.
29:54
Going Adric behind you there's a side wig.
29:57
Get behind the sofa or that brown chair.
30:02
Oh no, I'll never know if I'm right.
30:05
It's tragic. Is it wrong?
30:07
Of me to say that whilst that side man's dying, I could see
30:10
that he does hang to the right. Luke.
30:15
Hey, when you're a. Cyberman they can make it any
30:17
size they want because they now I'll never.
30:20
Know if I was right? Yeah, I love.
30:23
That line, oh look, see this has got.
30:25
Gun now she's not going to be left out.
30:28
You can say what you want about these companions, but they're
30:31
not pussies, that's for sure. Like, oh.
30:33
My God, Adric, no. Oh, look at this close up.
30:37
That's great. Look at that.
30:39
Actually, he acts that really well and does a little tilt of
30:42
his head as he knows he's about to die.
30:48
Janet Fielding did say that they were trying very hard not to
30:50
laugh in this scene. Well, say whatever.
30:54
Anyone can say whatever they want about Adric as a character,
30:58
but he has one of the best exits in Doctor Who.
31:02
Well, Davo. Davo said that Matthew was
31:06
furious when he found out he was going to die and he said to him,
31:09
whilst they're making it, no one will ever forget you going.
31:12
It's it's the oldest right way to go.
31:15
Yeah. What do you think about the
31:17
silent credits? I I.
31:19
Love it. It was like I'm, I'm a young
31:21
kid. Like there's two things that
31:23
made me all right. There's three things that made
31:26
me bore my eyes out like like this when I was a young kid. 1
31:30
was Optimus Prime dying in the animated Transformers cartoon
31:33
movie. Anyone who's a Transformers fan
31:35
and watched that as a kid, you know what I'm talking about.
31:37
The other one was renting the final volume of Blake. 7 as a
31:41
kid crying my eyes out after Blake.
31:45
And then fucking. Demanding my old man take me to
31:47
the video store to get the next volume, only for the person at
31:50
the counter to be like, that's the last one.
31:53
So fucking devastated. And then like that that third
31:56
one, like I'll probably pry other times I'm a little kid.
31:58
But like the third other like one that really hits me is is
32:03
this one the trouble with? This one was, my mother was
32:07
watching this with me and obviously in a particular
32:10
sarcastic mood. And so we got to the end of it
32:13
and she was quite gripped by it. And then the silent credits
32:16
started and she went, she started laughing.
32:18
I went, what? And she went, what's this in
32:21
memory of Adric? And she totally blew the moment
32:29
in respect for Adric. But oh, what an ending.
32:34
What? I'll tell you what ending.
32:36
It. Might have ruined the.
32:37
Moment for you, but like, that is a fucking amazing story and I
32:39
wouldn't trade it for anything that's great.
32:42
I mean it just builds. And builds, doesn't it?
32:46
I don't. I mean, fuck the plot holes, I
32:47
don't care. I had a great time watching
32:50
that. I think like.
32:51
After episode 1 where we mentioned a couple of them, we
32:54
probably like, we were both like, who cares?
32:58
And we just got drawn in and I like I just I just love it,
33:05
isn't it? Sometimes I will get that
33:09
feeling I do with the five doctors of like, do I need to
33:13
watch this again? Like I know what to pack the
33:16
front and then I'll just put it on and it's over before I know
33:20
it. Just like the five doctors, like
33:23
just freaking boom. This is I've I've said this a
33:29
few times about some day based stories, but it's it's
33:32
definitely true for this one. This one's iconic.
33:35
It's got an iconic ending. It reintroduces the Cybermen.
33:38
The Henu design is really cool and updated.
33:43
Like, I don't know, I like I love resurrection the Daleks,
33:48
but they could have used a fresh coat of paint like the Cybermen
33:52
had gotten. Like maybe not a drastic
33:54
redesign, but imagine I don't know.
33:58
That's why I like I love Dalek because that looks like a Dalek
34:02
in Dalek Rob Schumer story. But I like Revelation.
34:06
That sexy new white and gold one?
34:07
Yes, there we. Go.
34:10
You know what? Yeah.
34:11
That's why I always love remembrance.
34:14
I'm like special weapons Dalek. Oh my God.
34:16
It's a different kind. Oh my God.
34:19
The funniest? Thing though, right is right.
34:22
So this works like gangbusters. Yeah, like I said, the ratings
34:25
went up. And then Time Flight episode 1
34:28
gets the highest rating of the season, 11,000,000 viewers.
34:32
We're back in the zeitgeist again in Tom Baker's peak, sort
34:36
of episode 1 of that. Is pretty decent as well.
34:39
Yeah, but it does end with those white poos sort of floating
34:44
around. There one goes.
34:47
Oh dear. Maybe not.
34:51
And then, you know, like not to be be number specific, but
34:57
season 20 it does lose about 3 million viewers.
35:00
Like it's it hovers around six to seven million for most
35:04
stories. Look, I think if David had stuck
35:08
around, I still think the ratings would have continued to
35:12
decline. That's just I think you're
35:13
right. How they like as.
35:15
Much as I would love to look you in the eye, Joe, and say, what
35:20
are you crazy, Dave? You look at the look at
35:22
Frontier. I'm just saying he's at the
35:24
height of his powers. Oh, my God.
35:27
Like, yeah, but no one, no one was watching it like they were
35:30
like five years ago. So I don't like even when you go
35:35
from Tom Baker's peak to season 18, like there's a huge drop off
35:39
there as well. And I and it just and you're on
35:42
a channel that doesn't like you. I don't like it from here.
35:48
Maybe not publicly enough, but like they don't like it and
35:53
they're embarrassed by it and they want it gone and.
35:58
I don't want to be a number cruncher, but I think 21 it does
36:03
start to climb again because resurrection, you know, he
36:08
brings in the Daleks and it does what it what it he wants it to
36:11
do. Is that 8 million?
36:13
I think for Part 2. And then if you look at the
36:17
ratings for Kaiser Androsani, they start in the 60s and it
36:24
climbs with every single episode.
36:28
So I think when they deliver good stuff, I think people
36:31
watch. It's just it is inconsistent.
36:35
And that's Doctor. That's the blessing and the
36:37
curse. Of Doctor Who isn't it, but the
36:39
joy of. Watching it now is that is
36:41
inconsistent and we can watch all the pony stuff and all the
36:45
great stuff as well and love it all.
36:48
Well, look Luke, we're a great task befalls us now to choose
36:53
our three fabulous things to recommend Earth Shock.
36:59
I don't think it's going to be too difficult.
37:02
Would you care to go first? Well, my, I know I've mentioned
37:08
him a couple times, but I just want to state that Malcolm
37:12
Clarke did the music for this and he's absolutely incredible.
37:17
And look, I'm sorry for people who like the Sea Devils.
37:21
It's it's not terrible. It's a good, it's a good story.
37:23
The music. I just, everyone's got at least
37:26
a couple Doctor Who stories with the music.
37:28
They just, they just can't that, that one's mine.
37:30
I don't think I'm unpopulated choosing that one, but to turn
37:34
it. Around.
37:35
If you take. Paracetamol with you, can't you?
37:38
But it doesn't give up the weirdness but as well because
37:43
you've mentioned some of the weird flourishes that he that he
37:45
brings to Earth shop. But.
37:49
Everyone in making this knows it's a bit of a kind of a big
37:53
deal story. I think even Malcolm Clarke does
37:56
too. And he makes one of the iconic
38:00
kind of scores of the era here with with earth shock.
38:03
So just kind of kudos to there because like, I wasn't meant I
38:09
wasn't like I knew when I did this for with you for my podcast
38:14
that I could tell it wasn't like, you know, Roger Lim or
38:23
Peter Hale or who's the other guy.
38:25
I can't remember Meldrin undead guy.
38:28
Paddy Kingsland. Paddy Kingsland.
38:30
That's right. I could tell it wasn't them.
38:32
So I was like, oh, there's a fourth musician in this era.
38:34
Oh, cool, who is it? And I couldn't believe that it
38:37
was the guy from the Sea Devils. And he does this, and I think
38:41
he'll do one more story of resurrection and no
38:43
enlightenment. As well.
38:45
Oh yes. There you go.
38:47
So yeah, that's one of the most. Beautiful scores of the 80s, I
38:50
think. Enlightenment.
38:52
So, you know, like. I'm glad some people get second
38:57
chances, I guess because yeah, he crushed it when you say.
39:02
Flourishes. Do you mean like the sinister
39:04
flatulence, that sort of thing? Yeah.
39:10
Well, my first. Thing, and I am unapologetic in
39:16
saying this is Beryl Reid as Briggs.
39:22
I just think without, I mean, there are other factors involved
39:27
as well. Davison being pleasantly
39:30
eccentric and David Banks just going wonderfully over the top
39:36
with his lines. But Beryl Reeves, man, she adds
39:39
an element of high camp to all this machismo in the just the
39:46
most blissful way. I find her effortlessly
39:49
watchable. Her relationship with Mr.
39:52
Ringway, it's just blissful. And watching her trying to
39:57
deliver the techno Babble lines is out of this world.
40:01
Yeah, just a just a savvy move to put a little bit of star
40:06
power in the middle of all of this testosterone.
40:10
Marvellous. My, my, my second thing is, is
40:17
going to be Janet. And yeah, I always get this.
40:23
Oh, she doesn't want to be there kind of thing.
40:24
I'm like, yeah, all right, that's only for a certain amount
40:28
of time. By this point, she sort of kind
40:30
of does want to be there. But why is she still like that?
40:33
Well, I can be like that. You travel with me, it's not
40:37
going my way. Fucking bitch in a moaning.
40:40
If something cool happens, I'm having fun, you know, like, or
40:43
I'm, I'm in the thick of it. I like, at least I want to be.
40:47
I love hearing this because I feel like when people talk about
40:52
it, they don't really talk about this stuff of her being like in
40:57
amongst the soldiers. And she's yeah, she's scared and
40:59
she's terrified and stuff, but she ain't got flight.
41:03
She's got fight and she's she's going in there blasting
41:07
assignment. She's scrambling with the guns
41:09
because she's doesn't have the training that the prime training
41:11
soldiers do. But she's in there and and in
41:14
the thick of it and and she crushed she she crushes it.
41:19
Like I can see what you mean from where you go from Ford to
41:23
do say to now, like I don't dislike the performance, but I
41:27
definitely can still at least see that there's a progression
41:30
from there to here. And she gets like all sorts of
41:36
cool shit to do that maybe I can see Sarah doing this kind of
41:41
stuff easily. But you know, it's, I don't
41:47
think characters with this much gumption been too common for a
41:51
little while. Like, I mean, from a normal
41:52
modern day, I don't know. She's definitely in that Sarah
41:58
Jane kind of mould, even in that I know they're completely
42:01
different characters. So but I think she's got a bit
42:03
of like that kind of Joe Grant kind of I care about it.
42:08
Like she's not nice like and adorable like Joe Grant, but
42:12
she's got the heart and and everything there and she's in
42:14
the thick of it like Joe would be too.
42:16
So I don't know. She's AI mean.
42:20
She's a she's just great. I love the era for the Davison
42:26
era. I'm sorry.
42:27
I love the Davis, the Davis scenario.
42:29
I love, I love it for Peter Davidson, of course, and the 5th
42:32
Doctor, but she's a huge part of, of the era.
42:36
And I, I'm like, yes, all right, we can make jokes about her
42:41
being a complainer and a bit of a bitch.
42:45
And I, I use that as a term of endearment, but I don't know,
42:51
she can get some, she gets to do some great stuff.
42:54
And I feel like what adds to the performance in this, and this
43:00
might sound stupid, but the fact that she's in that plain uniform
43:04
means she doesn't have to worry about the skirt riding up and
43:07
showing this stuff or anything popping out.
43:09
She's completely covered. She's got full range of motion.
43:13
So she can actually kind of move and, and kind of do all this
43:17
stuff without, without popping out.
43:20
So I think that adds to the performance as well.
43:22
I don't know, like, you know what I mean?
43:24
Like, hey, hey, when a Doctor Who assistant.
43:28
Oh yeah. When a Doctor Who assistant is
43:30
actually able to wear some practical clothes, like like
43:34
Turlo might be in the school uniform every episode, but he's
43:36
got like full range of movement. He has to worry.
43:39
So he can always kind of do stuff.
43:41
He's got to be like Paul, like Paul Nicola.
43:44
Bride was always Hanford by what she was wearing, yeah.
43:47
And she's a great actress. I I love Perry.
43:52
Yeah, of course. But I kind of fell in love with
43:55
the character though, via a big finish, and that translates kind
43:59
of now when I watch watch that era.
44:02
So yeah, my second thing is, yeah, Janet, I think she's great
44:05
in in this. I think I can.
44:07
With two line readings, I can explain the difference between
44:11
Janet coming into Doctor Who and Janet at this point, right
44:16
Logopolis? She gives this line reading.
44:21
Adric and Nyssa have gone looking for the master.
44:25
You know, it's like, who are you talking to in the rafters?
44:29
Like are you talking to all the Kitty winks up there listening.
44:32
And in this she gives a subtly very funny lie reading.
44:38
I'm just a mouth on legs, you know, like, and it's really
44:42
funny and it's quite and it's subtle and I think, I think she
44:45
just realized she didn't have to play to 4 year olds all the
44:49
time. Yeah.
44:50
And that's why Tegan. Works for me because she has a
44:52
self-awareness about who she what, like how she comes across
44:56
even on the TV version of Tegan. She knows what she is and she
45:00
knows she's as blunt as a hammer and that's just who she is.
45:05
My second. Thing then is going to be
45:09
predictably, Peter Grimwaite who watching that again, you know
45:15
what a lot of classic who falls down in the commentary format
45:20
because I lose the dialogue and I'm just looking at the
45:24
pictures. OK, and sometimes the pictures
45:28
on as expensive as they possibly could be.
45:33
And the new series works really well in that because I'm
45:35
constantly assaulted with beautiful images and I am going
45:39
to listen to the pony Steven Moffett dialogue and things like
45:41
that. So, but I think Earth Shock,
45:44
there's a handful of Doctor Who classic stories that just look
45:47
great. And that was heaven to watch
45:51
without the dialogue because from scene to scene, it was
45:54
beautifully shot. You know, all the actors were in
45:57
the right places. There was enough money there to
45:59
make those sets look good. Don Babbage was in there making
46:03
everything atmospheric. The action was genuinely
46:07
dynamic. He had crane shots in there and
46:10
long shots in there and high angle and low angle.
46:13
He just knows what he's doing. Yeah, fuck me.
46:17
More directors should have gone round irritating the actors with
46:19
that square hand thing because he just knew how to shoot.
46:23
You know what happens to some. People at work when they're
46:25
pissed off fucking do their job. Like go home now.
46:29
We get away from this prick. I hate to agree.
46:32
With Ian Levine, I so rarely do it, but he is there on one of
46:36
the documentaries saying Peter Grimwaite fucked off the actors,
46:40
but who cares because he's a great director and he delivered
46:44
brilliant work. He directed Full Circle, He
46:47
directed Lugopolis, Kinder and Earth Shock, and those are four
46:51
of the best directed classic Doctor Who stories.
46:55
So Peter Grimwaite is my second choice, yeah.
46:58
That's a good choice and man, I love the direction of Kinder,
47:03
even though it's a jungle on the studio floor and maybe not even
47:06
the best jungle on the studio floor.
47:07
I do not care. It is.
47:09
That's a 10 out of 10. Perfect story, no faults at all.
47:12
Don't snake it in. No faults at all.
47:15
My number 3 is look, I'm going to be cliche boring man, because
47:22
it is David Banks. He is the would he be maybe the
47:29
1st Cyberman since maybe what Crowl or something in 10th
47:37
planet to have even an inkling of a character slash charisma
47:43
about him. The story the story if it was
47:50
played a bit more seriously. I agree with you.
47:53
I don't think it would work so much.
47:54
You need a barrel read their stuff starting cold kind of
47:58
logic Cybermen. I don't think it's going to work
48:02
with tension raising with like stone cold logic robots.
48:05
It's given a bit of warmth. It's given a bit of personality.
48:08
Let's let's haven't been led by a guy who's not only tall, he
48:13
can fit that, but it can absolutely pull it off.
48:17
Pulls it off so well that for all the other Cybermen
48:20
appearances in classic who he is God damn cyber leader.
48:26
He loves this shit so much he wrote the book.
48:29
Oh my. God I.
48:32
Bet, I bet it's terrible, but I can't wait to read it and.
48:38
And and all that kind of stuff. So he loved it and I can tell.
48:44
I can tell he loved playing the cyber leader and had it been
48:49
such a boring. Role How do you have?
48:52
Great chemistry as a Cyberman bouncing off the doctor and all
48:56
the other characters. He does it and I'd say he's the
49:01
only cyber man to do it until like what Ashram guy in?
49:09
Yeah. Because usually they will use it
49:13
more human cipher. I know he's like a cross between
49:16
whatever, but that's yeah. So he's like David Banks pulls
49:21
off the impossible. He turns a cyber man into a main
49:25
character and it's fucking awesome.
49:27
So, yeah, so. Good.
49:29
They brought him back again and again and again.
49:31
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely right.
49:34
Watch, I have as my third. I've got a couple of things in
49:39
my belt. But you know what?
49:41
I think I want to go for propulsion.
49:45
And that is so few classic Doctor Who stories.
49:48
I mean, most of them don't develop a pace of any kind.
49:51
We've never used the word padding.
49:53
To describe this whole time the word padding just came up, now
49:57
they. They very often Doctor Who, it's
49:59
like long dialogue scenes and the occasional moment of action.
50:03
Yeah, that's that's classic Doctor Who.
50:05
Because that's what they could afford to do.
50:07
But just for once, they decided to go pace, pace, pace, you
50:10
know, boom, boom, boom, boom. I want Cybermen in my room.
50:14
I mean it just doesn't stop moving this from being haunted
50:18
through the caves and now still forever.
50:20
Two people being. Murdered down in the silos to
50:22
the site, men bursting out to them, taking the bridge, you
50:26
know, And then the action, the TARDIS at the end.
50:29
It is non-stop set pieces in this story.
50:33
Again, that's not usually my sort of telly, but done this
50:37
well, yeah, You just, you don't, you don't get a moment to
50:41
breathe in this, really. There are dialogue scenes, but
50:45
there's usually stuff happening or stuff about to happen, or
50:49
they're trying to prevent something from happening.
50:51
So all of that's delivered really fast as well.
50:56
Multi camera. I think it's a real skill to
50:59
make something as propulsive and as dynamic as a shock is.
51:03
And then people might say, well, you know what?
51:05
It's quite slow paced compared to Doctor Who.
51:07
Now fuck off, all right? It's very fast compared to
51:11
everything else that's coming out at the time.
51:14
I think the only things that could possibly rival this maybe
51:20
Andrazani. I don't even think attack an
51:23
assignment, attack an assignment.
51:24
Just have long dialogue scenes in episode 2 with the cry ONS
51:28
and all of that. The five doctors is measured in
51:32
pace at best. You know, I just.
51:36
It's so rare for a doctor. Who story to just keep moving
51:40
like this, but also to move with great shock twists along the way
51:47
and unforgettable climax as well.
51:52
So just the structure of it and the execution of it.
51:55
Yeah, that's my last thing. Just just the fact that it is as
51:58
propulsive as it is, I think, giant.
52:02
T struggled to find a script editor will stay because you've
52:06
got did made Anthony Root and Saywood for season 19 and you've
52:12
got a guys turned in two scripts probably on time for season 19
52:16
and one of them has just turned out to be your big fucking
52:21
blockbuster action epic, unforgettable extravaganza.
52:25
Hey, do you want to be script editor?
52:27
Yeah, I totally get it. Like I totally understand what I
52:29
chose. I chose for James.
52:31
He was like, hey, Eric, you want the job because other people,
52:35
people older than him, didn't want it.
52:38
And he delivered. He delivered the visitation,
52:40
right? Which went down extremely well.
52:43
He delivered a shop, which went down extra.
52:45
Of course he got this job. Of course he and you know what,
52:48
I think there are big flaws in swords approach and his ability,
52:54
but I also think there are massive strengths to his
52:57
approach and massive strengths to his ability.
53:01
So like, like everybody in Doctor Who, he's a flawed
53:06
creative person. His best stuff is some of the
53:10
best we ever had. Earth Shock, Revelation of the
53:13
Daleks, I think as scripts, those are just phenomenal.
53:19
His worst stuff is maybe not always getting the best writers
53:27
or maybe getting not always getting the best out of his
53:30
writers. And of course, his inability to
53:35
craft poetic dialogue himself. I mean, there are some clangers.
53:42
It's great Look I absolutely adore.
53:47
Kinder, but I can tell. What's written by Christopher
53:52
Bailey. What was written by Eric
53:55
Saywood, It's just little TARDIS.
53:57
He sayings and things like that. It's not not a big deal, but
54:00
there's a there's a difference in it.
54:03
The man who gave us, Who gave us?
54:06
Your bio would be better directed towards the enemy.
54:09
Doctor is not going to go on to write Shakespeare.
54:13
You know, like but like I I've I have always loved the 80s for
54:21
its inconsistency. Weirdly enough, I think a lot of
54:26
the other eras, inconsistency and diversity, a lot of the
54:32
other eras have a tone sort of Hinchcliffe.
54:34
You sort of know what you're getting and it's of a good
54:37
standard Williams you. You know you're going to get
54:41
something imaginative and and wacky and funny and
54:44
characterful, but it will be inconsistent.
54:46
The 80s, you don't know what you're going to get from week to
54:49
week. I mean, it is a roller coaster
54:52
in terms of the diversity of storytelling and the consistency
54:58
of the quality. You never know when you're going
55:01
from Earth Shock to Time Flight. You never know when you're going
55:04
from Andrew Zani to The Twin Dilemma.
55:06
You never know when you're going from fucking Time Lash to
55:10
Revelation of the Dalek. I mean, it's a roller coaster,
55:14
which is ironic because we never quite got onto the roller
55:17
coaster in the Nightmare Fair, did we?
55:19
Sorry joke, but it's so. Interesting to talk about.
55:25
Because of that inconsistency. So, yeah, yeah.
55:30
No, yeah, I understand that He's got like one of the, I think say
55:36
would cops it more than a lot and maybe more than deserved
55:41
that. I may.
55:41
I think a lot of that is because of like his era was the one with
55:45
the hiatus, you know, and OK, it is what it is.
55:49
It would have been anyone, I think, Doctor.
55:52
Who was on the decline? I.
55:55
Look, they will turn this show around to A to well, I love the
56:03
carbon era, you know, warts and all as well, but there is a
56:07
sharp quality, I guess, in terms of scripts and and things like
56:10
that. And that's well, at least excuse
56:16
me, at least this was like an uptake in quality in the show.
56:20
I think it was hitting a really good stride and but it doesn't
56:24
matter. It didn't matter.
56:26
It would never have mattered in the 80s if Doctor Who was
56:30
hitting a second renaissance hitting its stride or absolutely
56:35
dog shit garbage. They wanted it gone.
56:37
It was going. So that's that's how I I feel
56:40
about it. Like it didn't matter if it was
56:41
say with it or Cartmel or bid meat stuck around or anything
56:46
people say there is a sharp contrast.
56:49
In quality, when Carmel comes in, I think that era is just as
56:55
flawed in so many different ways, and it has unique
56:59
strengths like the Saywood era as well.
57:02
I mean, I think 26, as fun as it is, I think two of those scripts
57:09
are really flawed and it's sort of kind of doing the same thing
57:13
week after week. You don't get a single Eric's
57:15
Award season where they're doing the same thing week after week.
57:19
He's always trying new things, whether that works or not.
57:24
So yeah, there's there's there's a greater sense of the domestic
57:28
and Andrew Parker's time. I think there's probably more
57:32
imagination in that time and they're certainly going for more
57:36
realism with the emotions. But fuck me, he can't structure
57:41
a story. He can't get it to the right
57:43
length. You know, it's just as
57:47
inconsistent. You've got fucking Happiness
57:49
Patrol next to Remember, it's sort of Daleks.
57:51
You've got Battlefield next to Ghost Light.
57:53
Like it's just as inconsistent just because some people will
57:57
absolutely adore that stuff and can't see its flaws.
57:59
They're still there. And those are the people that
58:02
will point at us. They would and say, oh, look how
58:05
dismal that is. Cartmel comes along and no, it's
58:08
just as flawed. I'm sorry.
58:10
It is just as flawed in very different ways.
58:14
Yeah, got my heckles right up there.
58:16
No, that's right. Because like, I feel like you're
58:18
the one of the. Best people to talk about this
58:20
because I know you're more a Baker guy, but I feel like we're
58:23
both Saywood guys. Like yes, we know he's not
58:27
perfect. Like I mean like we all right,
58:30
we might not be outright. I love Eric Saywood.
58:32
I'm his biggest fan, but our doctors have taken like, he's a
58:39
big part of both of our favorite doctors and you know, like.
58:45
I'm not going to sit here and. Kind of just do the blanket shit
58:48
on him and stuff like he's done. Yeah, yeah.
58:52
I mean there are some dodgy scripts but.
58:54
Like, look at something like, I look at something like Warriors
58:57
of the Deep, which is absolutely panned.
58:59
Yeah, right. If that wasn't directed by
59:01
Pennant Roberts, if that had £5,000,000 thrown here, that
59:06
script would be a great movie. It's a great.
59:11
That's another script that just keeps moving and there's
59:14
massacres and, you know, I mean, nuclear war threatened and also
59:18
what's happening. It ain't the war's fault that
59:21
unfortunately, Doctor Who's made on Tuppence and some tedious old
59:24
director from the 70s has been given the assignment because
59:28
he's a safe pair of hands and you'll make it on.
59:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so.
59:32
You know, by all means, throw scorn at our Eric.
59:38
Yeah. But it's it's just as flawed and
59:44
as strong as other eras, I think.
59:48
Yeah. It's just like.
59:51
It's just nice to. Like I, I, I don't mind it.
59:55
I don't care if someone comes on to the minor chess club and
59:58
doesn't like your it's not your favorite era either.
1:00:01
I don't care about that. It's one of a good conversation
1:00:03
about the stories, but. I I do hear maybe more negative
1:00:09
stuff about Eric than than positive.
1:00:11
And I'm like this. There's there's negatives.
1:00:14
Yes, the dude said yes to snake dance and you go on the
1:00:18
commentary for kinder and you just fairly admit I don't
1:00:21
fucking understand this story. Yeah, but he he must have seemed
1:00:26
like it's like why I love when I listen to your finished big
1:00:31
podcast and you you'll tell me that like because Gary Russell's
1:00:36
like directing and he's got no time, but like his diversity
1:00:40
because you know what style story he likes to tell.
1:00:43
We've all read or listened to a Gary Russell read or written
1:00:47
story, but I bet props to him. He says it's not just for.
1:00:50
Me. That's it.
1:00:52
And I feel like Justin Richards has.
1:00:54
That when he did, when he took over from the books, and I feel
1:00:57
like Eric Saywood has that absolutely in a way that Carbo
1:01:02
never would. Carbo.
1:01:03
Made stories that he wanted to watch you know yeah he made he
1:01:07
made sort of comic book Doctor Who and urban realism and that's
1:01:12
the don't look at his new Avengers that's exactly what he
1:01:15
wants to write what he wants to see yeah yeah I just.
1:01:19
And it it it does bug me, though.
1:01:21
It does bug me that those people that will Lord something as as
1:01:26
amateurishly made as the Happiness Patrol or as just
1:01:32
appallingly scripted as Battlefield would cut, you know,
1:01:36
fro scorn on the vengeance, on viruses and things like that,
1:01:40
which are, yeah, they're as flawed.
1:01:42
But they'll say, well, that's terrible, this is great.
1:01:46
Are you mad? No, You just think it's great
1:01:48
because you watched it when you were 8 and you loved it.
1:01:51
But if you take a sharp, critical eye to this stuff,
1:01:55
Cartmel is that's flawed as Eric Saywood in lots and lots of
1:02:00
different ways. Cursor Fenrick, which is utterly
1:02:02
lauded, is such a messily scripted story.
1:02:06
It jumps locations from scene to scene in such a haphazard way.
1:02:11
Like, cool Eric Saywood linear, but at least you can follow the
1:02:14
story. Yeah, No, exactly.
1:02:17
It's become war. Now it's award.
1:02:19
Versus Cartmel, well, look, if you had to ask me.
1:02:24
Whichever I watched more say we're sorry.
1:02:29
Yeah, I could just, I mean, don't listen to me.
1:02:30
My favorite year is is the Williams.
1:02:32
Era they couldn't even afford to make the fucking sets in that
1:02:34
period, you know, like. No, but Luke, you know, we
1:02:40
should probably bring this to a. Conclusion one because you need
1:02:43
to go to bed and I need to have some lunch.
1:02:45
But I mean, I've had such a jolly.
1:02:48
Time I think we should do. Another one of these.
1:02:50
What do you think? I would absolutely watch.
1:02:52
Love watch. To love another Doctor Who with
1:02:54
you? No, I would absolutely love to
1:02:56
watch another Doctor Who with you.
1:02:57
Yes, at any time now. I'm demanding now that you
1:03:00
choose the story. You've only got 5 seconds to
1:03:02
choose it. You have the entirety of classic
1:03:04
Who to choose from 430? Fuck 2.
1:03:14
Zero. It's Tom Baker story season 15.
1:03:21
Fuck it. Underworld.
1:03:23
Yes, OK. Do you like Underworld?
1:03:28
Yeah, I do. I have.
1:03:29
I have a bit of respect. For it too, because I got a
1:03:32
respect for a whole bunch of people who are like, hey, if we
1:03:34
don't get this made, like they're going to slash it for
1:03:36
next year, let's scrape together and make it.
1:03:39
Yeah, it's it's yeah. I adore the fact that you had
1:03:42
the whole of 15 to choose from. There and you went for
1:03:46
Underworld. I feel like a lot of people are
1:03:50
very. Like, oh, someone's asked me on
1:03:53
a podcast, I'm going to choose something great.
1:03:55
And I mean, like, sure, I want to talk about great stories.
1:03:59
We just did. But I've I've done a few
1:04:02
podcasts now and I don't mind talking about, well, fun trash
1:04:06
or just trash. So yeah, let's it's fine.
1:04:10
Wow. And and I don't hate it.
1:04:12
So it'll be interesting. We've got we're going from the
1:04:15
story of one of the best. Productions to one of the worst
1:04:19
you can't say we're not diverse on this podcast Luke very
1:04:24
quickly if they don't already know because we've mentioned it
1:04:27
a few times will you tell everyone about your podcast
1:04:31
Well, I'm sorry I haven't mentioned a lot of.
1:04:33
Times. So yes, the Mara Chess Club,
1:04:35
it's a mostly weekly at the moment, Doctor Who podcast.
1:04:41
I only cover the Davison era stories, TV, audio book, comics,
1:04:50
anything. So yeah, that's that's it.
1:04:53
And you can follow me on Bruce Blue sky at Brumby 2 EB.
1:04:57
So yeah, my also for me. So yeah, being brilliant.
1:05:01
On the hamster book. Club as well, that's.
1:05:03
Right Andrew Batting and John Arnold.
1:05:06
I. And we've done I.
1:05:08
Over almost 30 books like it's doing 2030 so we're heavily
1:05:15
weighted towards the 8th Doctor. But we're heading to more new
1:05:18
adventures soon. Yeah, we'll, we'll do John a
1:05:20
favour and. Go back to his, he's kind of
1:05:23
here for a little bit, even if it is a time worm.
1:05:26
So yeah, no, it's this has been an absolute delight.
1:05:31
Of childish excitement and Glee and bums and bombs and yeah,
1:05:41
poor old. Adrick and of course.
1:05:44
That mad rant from me at the end there.
1:05:48
Oh, Adrick, you baw me. Yeah.
1:05:51
Sure. Sit down.
1:05:52
Thank you very much for your time.
1:05:54
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.