Latest / Identity at the Center / #371 - Sponsor Spotlight - Axonius

Transcript

#371 - Sponsor Spotlight - Axonius · Identity at the Center

0:04
This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:11
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
0:12
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:15
I'm good. I see that sly smile on your
0:16
face. It's just I'm very excited for
0:19
this episode. We've got a great innovator in
0:21
our space here today and I want to jump right into it.
0:25
What about you? Yeah, today is a sponsored
0:27
episode. So thanks to our friends over at
0:29
Exonius and Exonius X. Maybe we'll we'll kind of figure
0:32
out what that means here in a second.
0:33
But today is all about Exonius and kind of learning what they
0:37
come through. These are sponsored episodes
0:38
that we do from time to time just to, you know, have be a
0:41
little bit more vendor, less vendor neutral than we normally
0:45
are in our normal episodes. So, so with that, we've got
0:47
Exonius. You can find them on the web,
0:49
exonius.com/I DACAXONI, us.com and we've got we've got Omir
0:56
Ofek. He's the CEO at Exonius X.
0:59
So welcome to the show, Omir. Thanks, Jeff.
1:02
Thanks, Jim. Great to be here.
1:04
Yeah, thanks for taking the time.
1:05
So I, I, I have a couple questions I want to ask you.
1:08
I, I'm going to ask you about your background 1st and then
1:11
we're going to get into some other things.
1:12
So tell us a little bit about how you got into the identity
1:15
access management space. Is it something that you chose
1:17
or did it choose you? Oh, well, I would say it
1:20
definitely chose me kind of. So I, I started my career in, in
1:25
cybersecurity way back in the 8200.
1:28
There's many Israelis. I didn't did a shift to the IT
1:32
world. I'm an IT engineer by profession
1:35
and kind of a long career in IT and then came back to
1:38
cybersecurity. I was working as ACEO of a few
1:42
startups and four years ago I, I joined Axonius to establish
1:47
Axonius X and we can speak about that in a bit.
1:51
And the first product we actually brought to market was
1:55
around SAS management. And during that we actually
1:59
encountered a lot of IAM teams that were challenged with
2:04
managing SAS, SSPM and so on. And they actually told us and
2:09
again, we can go into more details later, they told us,
2:13
look, you're already doing all those great things and, and
2:16
great value that you bring around SAS applications.
2:19
Why don't you actually drive it also with identities?
2:23
And that's what kind of got us excited about the, the identity
2:27
management domain and we started thinking whether we can actually
2:30
create the product in that space.
2:32
So that's that's how I got into identities.
2:35
So you're kind of preaching the choir here, right?
2:37
This is identity at the center. So you know, we're talking
2:40
identity. I want to know more about
2:42
Exonius. And then I mentioned Exonius X.
2:45
What is the difference and what is the X signify I guess?
2:49
Yeah. So Exonis has been around for
2:51
eight years. It's a it's one of the the
2:54
leading unicorns in the cybersecurity space.
2:58
The company was founded by Dean Ofreen Avidor over 8 years ago
3:04
with the premise of being really a data first company dealing
3:08
with data, analyzing data. The first area that the company
3:13
ventured into was the asset management space, A category
3:17
that there was called Chasm. We didn't kill this category
3:20
today is kind of part of C Tam, but really in the asset
3:24
management space. And as the as the company
3:27
evolved the founders and mainly Dean kind of thought through a
3:32
vision of bringing a platform in and he was thinking how is the
3:36
best way of of actually doing it by one way could be through
3:40
acquisitions and bringing kind of M&A etcetera.
3:44
And the other way we could be actually through kind of
3:46
internal growth, that's more or less the time where I sold the
3:51
company I was CEO of to Rapid 7 and Dean and I knew each other
3:55
very well. And he kind of made the right
3:57
assumption. I'm not going to stay in the
3:59
enterprise world and and kind of do another gig in startup.
4:04
And that's kind of when he reached out and said, why don't
4:07
we find the structure that can work together doing innovation
4:10
from within Exonius. It took us a few days to think
4:14
about it and we quickly came to kind of this very innovative, I,
4:18
I must say, model of Axonius X, which is really an incubator
4:23
from an existing startup. Now back then Axonius was
4:26
already kind of growth startup, but still a startup.
4:30
And to build kind of an incubation from within is
4:33
something that is not trivial. So I joined together with my Co
4:37
founders of Axonius X with Rory and Hen and we established this
4:41
unique model where we constantly on the lookout for new products,
4:46
new areas that we can evolve that Sony's platform into.
4:50
And that's kind of what we what we work on. 1st product was in
4:54
the SAS management space and our second product is in identity
4:57
management. So you mentioned sort of like
5:00
asset inventory and we just did an episode where we talked about
5:03
attack surface management and identity being part of those
5:06
things you need to manage in inventory as well.
5:09
Is that the genesis, you know, for this I guess kind of turn
5:14
towards things? I mean it seems kind of logical
5:15
to me. It's like, OK, we you can only
5:17
protect what you know about and sure, laptops hardware, right?
5:22
That makes sense. But identities are something you
5:24
should know about as well, right?
5:25
Is that is that really kind of how this started or was there
5:27
something else that drove you to kind of build this solution?
5:30
No, this, this is very much it. Now it came from customers, not
5:34
from us. So I would say asset, the moment
5:39
you, you speak about asset, asset can be various aspects.
5:41
So you're right, like they they need a default and asset is a
5:44
device, it's a laptop, it's a server, it's a workload and so
5:48
on. But four years ago when we
5:51
started thinking about our first product in Exonia 6 customers
5:54
told us, look, we now have new assets called SAS applications.
5:58
We want to treat them. They're kind of beyond our
6:00
perimeter. They're not right in our
6:03
control. This is something we need to
6:04
manage. We need to treat it like another
6:06
asset from configuration perspective, usage perspective,
6:10
users perspective and so on. And that's kind of what got us
6:13
into dealing with SAS as another asset.
6:16
And then customers told us, wait, you're already dealing
6:19
with SAS. Now there is another asset
6:21
exactly like you said, Jeff, which is identities, which is
6:23
becoming more and more important.
6:26
We need to treat our identities as another asset inventory that
6:30
we have in the company. We need to have full visibility
6:33
on all of the identities that we have, whether they're non human,
6:36
whether they're human, whether they're on Prem, whether they're
6:39
SAS, whether they're on cloud. And we need to treat them as if
6:42
there were another asset that is important to manage, important
6:46
to see the usage of and so on. So absolutely, the way we see
6:51
identity is yet another asset that the company needs to manage
6:55
and that's what customers told us and that's what we are doing.
6:59
So I'm always fascinated by the naming of companies, and Exonius
7:03
is pretty unique. Tell me about how you know, what
7:07
does the name mean? Does it doesn't mean anything?
7:09
How did you come up with the name Exonius for the company?
7:12
Yeah, so, so I did not come up with the name.
7:15
It's the founders that came up with the name.
7:17
And actually Exonius is well, they thought of of a name that
7:21
starts with a. So that was one of the one of
7:24
the first parameters and then they thought of a certain
7:27
section. Actually, as you can see in the
7:28
logo is actually a practical in the neuro system that connects
7:34
between different areas of the neuro system axiom.
7:38
So this is actually kind of the connection of the first axioms.
7:42
So that's how the name and that's what we do in Exonius.
7:44
We actually connect data, we connect information, we connect
7:48
information from multiple sources to become this kind of
7:52
nervous system sort of speak of the organization.
7:55
I love that that's such a good little like Easter egg for
7:58
people who aren't familiar, like neurons.
7:59
And. Stuff like that.
8:00
Yeah, that's a great way to like, you know, put it.
8:03
So you're in this space that Gartner is calling IVIP or make
8:07
sure I get it right. Identity visibility
8:09
infrastructure platform. So tell me about this
8:12
intelligence. Identity visibility
8:15
intelligence. OK, intelligence.
8:17
So thank you for correcting me. It's new, new to me.
8:19
I had not heard about this until, you know, just recently.
8:21
So IVIP identity visibility intelligence platform.
8:25
What is that space? And then I guess you know, the,
8:28
the, the $1,000,000 question is what is it that makes you guys
8:31
different in that space? Or maybe some other vendors that
8:33
might be playing in the same area?
8:35
Absolutely. So it is brand new.
8:38
It just came up in the very recent I digital identity hype
8:43
cycle that Gartner released in in July.
8:46
So it's very, very new. And this new category I guess is
8:51
is some of a symptom that we see today in general in the in the
8:54
identity or IGA space. So over the last, I would say
8:58
year or two, we we started seeing a lot of bespoke
9:02
categories that are kind of breaking the traditional IGA.
9:05
We start seeing NHI as a new category, we start seeing ITVR
9:09
as a separate category. We start seeing ISPN as another
9:12
category. And I think that actually
9:15
demonstrate the fact that the IGA world is now going through
9:18
some disruption or some transformation.
9:21
The area that Gartner identified as Ivy is really around bringing
9:26
visibility and intelligence into identity.
9:29
So it's clear today that identity resides in many, many
9:33
silos in many, many areas of the organization.
9:36
It's no longer a monolithic environment that you can have
9:40
all of your identities managed on your single AD or your single
9:44
SAP. And that's why visibility is
9:46
becoming so much more important because identities, permissions,
9:50
entitlements, today they reside everywhere.
9:52
And unless you have very profound, very broad visibility
9:56
of the entire organization, the entire pockets of where identity
10:00
resides, you, you're always missing out on something.
10:03
And then if you don't see, you cannot actually manage it.
10:06
And that's why the visibility part is important.
10:08
But what Gartner actually very wisely did is they aligned it
10:13
with what they call intelligence, which is the
10:15
visibility by itself is not. It's good, but it's only a first
10:18
step. You need to make sense of what
10:20
you're seeing. You need to make sense of the
10:22
context of those permissions. For example, you need to make
10:26
sense of how a single permission is connected to another one, how
10:29
you can cluster them together, how you can do a much more
10:32
profound role mining, how you can come with much more a smart
10:37
analytics and, and maybe kind of use of AI in terms of
10:41
recommending, of roles of recommending, of functionality.
10:44
And that's exactly what we do in Exonia.
10:46
So as I mentioned in Exonia's, we're all about data.
10:49
First we bring the identity data into one single place creating
10:54
one visibility. But then we are able to actually
10:57
go to the granularity of this data and drive analysis and
11:01
smart recommendations, mark actions from what we are
11:05
gathering in order to make sense of your entire identity life
11:10
cycle. Unlike other maybe players in
11:14
this category, we also evolved from IVIP into proper IGA.
11:19
So we don't see kind of IGA as a as a kind of a separate area.
11:25
We think that through visibility you can actually manage much
11:28
better your IGA program, your IGA capabilities.
11:32
And within our product, we also have like the bread and butter
11:36
or the core functionality of IGA, like access reviews, like a
11:40
role mining, like identity life cycle management and so on.
11:46
So Amir, I'd like to get into the products a little bit.
11:49
And first thing I'd like to understand is kind of the why.
11:52
So why do organizations find themselves leading the Exonius
11:58
products? What is the problem that they're
12:00
trying to solve? I think I think the first
12:03
problem that we saw actually I would say two the first problem
12:07
that we saw is, is around this visibility and the fact that
12:10
today there is all of those silos of identity in the
12:14
organization. The more organizations are
12:17
becoming complex from cloud deployment, from SAS deployment,
12:21
even sometimes even just with on Prem multiple ADS that are
12:25
sprawling M And as that companies are doing, all of a
12:29
sudden there is identity that resides in so many different
12:31
places, entitlements that are spreading around non human
12:36
identities that are becoming more and more and more
12:38
important. And organizations are losing
12:42
track or or losing ability to capture all of the identity that
12:46
they have. So the first really challenge
12:49
that we come to solve is creating that single visibility
12:52
from any source that you have identity residing in.
12:55
And that's kind of what we know how to do in Exonics.
12:58
Exonics we know to connect to any data source.
13:00
We have today over 1200 off the shelf integrations, we call them
13:06
adapters. We know how to correlate them,
13:08
to duplicate them, align them into what we call this adapter
13:12
network under a single data model.
13:15
And then you get basically a single identity store where you
13:18
can start driving analysis and actions from.
13:21
So the first challenge is really this visibility challenge of
13:24
aggregating all of the identity into one place.
13:27
The second one which is slightly tied to that is the time to
13:31
value. We see with traditional IGA
13:34
solutions out there time to value is something that these is
13:38
really mind boggling today. You know an IGA program can run
13:43
12 months, 18 months, 30. I heard you know even 36 months
13:47
as being very, very common. We want to narrow that down.
13:51
We want to enable an IM practitioner to be able to drive
13:56
strong solid recommendations on what should be, it's a
14:01
birthright rules on what should be the mover rules on the lever
14:05
side of things, on assigning gay owners to non human accounts and
14:09
so on within a matter of weeks, not within a matter of months.
14:13
And our ability to narrow down that timeline is driven first
14:17
because of those integrations. So we, we don't need to spend
14:22
month and month of building customized integrations and and
14:25
connections etcetera. We already have them available.
14:28
We already correlate them and align them in single data place
14:32
that narrows down by a lot. And the second thing is by
14:36
applying smart AI that can come actually with very solid
14:39
recommendations upfront. And by that we we actually
14:43
reduced substantially the time to value.
14:46
That second part about the time to value is that's an awesome
14:51
selling plate. But I got to tell you as a
14:53
identity practitioner, the first point that you brought up was
14:57
really to me like what resonates?
14:59
You need to have one place to go to know who has access to what.
15:04
I think you're looking at it from a unique perspective, which
15:08
is really hyper fixating on these, on the data.
15:13
And so maybe you could dive into that a little bit further.
15:16
What what is it that you keep talking about data being so
15:19
important? Help us understand why.
15:22
Why is that the perspective? Yeah, I think at the end of the
15:27
day, there's maybe in high level two ways of looking at the IGA.
15:30
1 can be more of a process oriented way of putting in place
15:35
kind of a procedures and processes in the in the
15:37
organization. The other one is is data-driven.
15:40
The reason I think data is the more important one is because at
15:44
the end of the day you can collect a lot of you can drive a
15:48
lot of processes around the identity policies and so on.
15:51
But if you don't collect the right information, the right
15:55
data, for example, to the level of resource level, granularity
16:01
of permissions and entitlement, whether Jim has a permission to
16:06
access a GitHub repo that Jeff is not allowed to to access.
16:12
This level of granularity of of access, of entitlement, of
16:16
permission is very important to first have a comprehensive view
16:21
of it. So you need to know of all of
16:23
the permissions, all the entitlements that exist in the
16:25
organization. And secondly, you need to make
16:28
sense out of it in in the right context.
16:30
So you need to make sure that the permissions are being
16:35
aligned, entitlements are being aligned and it all stems from
16:39
from a data perspective and not so much from whether you have
16:42
the right kind of, I don't know, policy in the organization to
16:46
give the employees access at the moment they join the company.
16:51
The other aspect is that with a lot of companies, we find a lot
16:55
of historical information that that resides.
16:57
So companies accumulate throughout the years a lot of
17:01
rules and policies, a lot of garbage groups in ADA, lot of,
17:08
you know, provisions that are not even in use in the company.
17:12
So in order to drive something that I, I think is a lot, a lot
17:16
kind of forgotten a lot to drive identity hygiene, you need to
17:20
have proper data and, and you need to constantly make sure
17:24
that the data is, is, is in good hygiene mode.
17:27
And this is something a lot of IAM teams are neglecting,
17:30
unfortunately, because it's a very kind of maintain task to
17:33
just go over all of the groups constantly and clean them up and
17:36
make sure that the roles are right size and, and so on.
17:39
But if you accumulate all of that dust or garbage over time,
17:43
then you, you don't see what you really need to see.
17:46
You don't see the real roles that you need to manage.
17:48
You don't see the real permissions that are faulty.
17:52
And I think that you can only achieve when you get the data
17:54
right? No, that really resonates with
17:57
me. I mean, we've always said
17:59
garbage in, garbage out. I know that identity
18:03
practitioners are doing their best if they need to have the
18:06
tools to make it so that it's scalable.
18:09
Because the the issue that you're bringing up is that
18:14
there's just too much to do bottom line, that if you don't
18:18
have the automation, you don't have the tools, how can you be
18:21
expected to succeed That you earlier brought up something
18:26
else that you know, a lot of different things are happening
18:30
within the industry and people are trying to bring different
18:32
flavours. You've run up the non human
18:35
identity part of the story, which really resonates me and
18:39
Jeff, we've talked about it a lot.
18:42
You know, non human identities is not really a brand new story.
18:47
And you know, we started in this industry over 20 years ago.
18:51
We're still dealing with non human identities, but now it's
18:54
gotten to the point that it's expanding so much.
18:59
You mentioned workloads, devices, everything's got
19:04
identities now, so it's a bigger problem.
19:08
And these non human identities are often harder to secure with
19:14
like multi factor authentication, things like
19:17
that. That's a big lead in for a very
19:20
simple question, which is, from your focus, what kind of
19:26
accounts does this visibility matter the most for?
19:30
Is it the humans, is it the non humans, or is it really both?
19:34
Or should they be looked at almost equally?
19:37
It's both. I I I think that there should
19:40
not be discrimination in general between humans.
19:43
So I think there's also should not be discrimination between
19:46
humans and non humans. If we look at the organization
19:49
down the road, let's say let's take kind of a leap of faith 20
19:54
years down the road, at the end of the day, you'll have a lot of
19:57
AIAI agents roaming around. You'll have a lot of service
20:01
accounts. Everything will be in service
20:03
accounts in my mind. And you'll have some humans, but
20:06
they will all need to be treated more or less the same way.
20:09
Of course, they will have different traits and different
20:11
behavior and so on. But from an identity
20:14
perspective, if you look at the company.
20:17
The identities in the company will be those agents, they will
20:20
behave like employees. You know, they, they will drive
20:23
decisions, they will drive automation, they will drive
20:26
maybe a lot of the functionality of the, you know, of the service
20:30
that the company provide. You will have, of course,
20:32
humans, sprinkle of humans and, and you'll have and you'll have
20:38
non human identities, service accounts that they all of those
20:41
humans will be managing and so on.
20:43
So you cannot really kind of discriminate between 1:00 or
20:46
another. At the end of the day, all of
20:47
those are identities. And the shift we're seeing by
20:50
the way, today of security to be kind of identity first is all
20:55
driven by that because at the end of the day, to protect the
20:58
organization, you need to protect the people or the
21:02
machines that have access to data and you need to treat them
21:07
the same way. So that's why our philosophy is
21:10
that you need to aggregate all data, whether it is of a service
21:14
account and making sure that you know who's the owner of that
21:17
service account and what permission this service account
21:19
has, whether it is a human information, which is easily
21:24
maybe getting information from your IDP.
21:27
Yeah, MFA is very much kind of relevant source of information,
21:31
source of a of a mean to manage human accounts and all the way
21:36
to maybe a gentic AI and how those kind of sprawl around.
21:40
You need to bring all of that information one single place.
21:43
And of course for each one try to drive different actions and
21:46
different maybe automation on on kind of monitoring or
21:50
protecting, but it all needs to be treated from from same
21:54
perspective. You cannot say you're going to
21:57
silo that. So that's a great overview on
22:03
why Axonius was built, why customers might want to use this
22:09
tool in their environment. Just talk about how so identity,
22:14
visibility and intelligence. How does Axonius make the
22:19
visibility piece happen? Yeah.
22:23
So from our perspective, it's relatively straightforward.
22:28
The first thing that you do with Axonius is that you connect to
22:30
sources of data. Axonius is not about deploying
22:34
another scanner or another agent or another kind of a tool that
22:40
they will drive kind of an additional, additional discovery
22:45
proactively. The way we do the discovery is
22:47
actually leveraging already the investment that was made in
22:50
other tools. So we would connect to your AD,
22:52
we would connect to your Octa, we would connect to your AWS,
22:55
your GCP, your Azure, your sales force, your success factor, your
23:02
you name it. Any application that has some
23:04
aspect of identity to it, we drive those connectors through
23:09
what we call adapters. Most of them already we have
23:12
out-of-the-box. So it's basically just putting
23:14
in place the integration with API and you get, you get that in
23:18
and from the moment you connect those adapters, you already have
23:22
in our database, in our data model, all of the information
23:26
within kind of a matter of a fetch cycle.
23:29
So it could be as short as 15 minutes or 24 hours depending on
23:33
the on the fetch time. And from that point onwards you
23:37
can actually start driving decisions.
23:40
You can first see any kind of anomalies that you see in terms
23:44
of maybe administrative permissions that should not be
23:50
having access. So like excessive permissions
23:53
that they were given to some of your admins.
23:55
You can see for example, anomalies say entitlements that
24:00
were given compared to different groups.
24:02
You can start driving decisions by right sizing the roles that
24:06
you have in the company. You can actually drive this
24:10
hygiene factor that I mentioned in terms of removing of sale
24:13
accounts. You can make sure that you have
24:15
ownership to all of those non human accounts.
24:18
A very common use case, and that is, is now maybe top of the of
24:23
the hour given the Cyber Ark acquisition by by Palo Alto is,
24:28
is pen making your pen actually much more up to date.
24:32
We can help you do that. We can help you make sure that
24:35
all of your privileged accounts are the right ones.
24:39
All of them are actually configured in your Pam and we
24:42
can make sure that the Pam doesn't have any noise of
24:46
accounts that are no longer privileged or no longer existing
24:49
in the company. So we can make sure your Pam is
24:51
always up to date. We have those various use cases
24:55
that you can actually start driving that's kind of more from
24:58
a visibility perspective and hygiene perspective.
25:01
Once you have the hygiene part kind of I wouldn't say sorted
25:04
out because it's a never ending task, but in a good, good stage,
25:08
then you can actually go to the next layer of driving in my
25:11
mind, kind of proper IGA coming with recommendation, leveraging
25:17
our machine learning AI, recommending which rules you
25:20
need to apply in the company in terms of birthright rules, in
25:23
terms of lever rules, in terms of mover rules and so on.
25:26
So we can come with our recommendation.
25:29
You can actually start doing it by your own IM team that they
25:33
will start managing the identity life cycle there.
25:36
And you can constantly monitor that you don't have any gaps in
25:39
terms of like potential misbehavior, let's say of a of a
25:46
non human accounts or human accounts.
25:48
So we have constantly tracking of detection of, of, of the
25:53
behavior of the, of identities to highlight any kind of
25:57
malicious activity or abnormal activities.
26:00
So that's kind of the ongoing monitoring of things.
26:03
Yeah. And that aspect, just, I get
26:07
excited about that the, it almost sounds like user behavior
26:10
analytics, which I think I have this moment in the sun.
26:15
There were some implementation challenges with it, but to me,
26:19
it always made a lot of sense, especially now with the advances
26:23
we're seeing in AI and machine learning.
26:26
Talk to us a little bit about what XO News brings to the table
26:31
in terms of like spotting the abnormal behavior.
26:35
Yeah. So we have our own beta
26:37
scientist team that developed a few algorithms around machine
26:42
learning and we have a few areas in the product that we apply
26:45
them. So one kind of the most trivial
26:47
one, as I mentioned is around role mining, for example, which
26:50
is relatively simple case. It's all about having the right
26:55
data before you apply the ML. So if you don't have like cleans
26:59
data and the aligned data doesn't matter how good your,
27:03
your ML algorithm is it, it will just fail.
27:06
Second one is really by applying kind of recommendation of rules
27:10
and policies. And that's again something that
27:12
we do both using kind of ML and as well as also using a bedrock
27:18
for kind of the LLM part of it. And that's kind of more in the
27:22
recommendation of policies. And the last piece is really
27:25
kind of monitoring the behavior. So you're right that the user
27:31
behavior is something that is not new.
27:34
I believe that today the technology and the tools that
27:38
exist out there enable it to be much more, I guess effective in
27:43
terms of the balance between the amount of data that you need to
27:47
collect versus the analysis that drive some meaningful analysis.
27:51
And I think today we, we reach some sort of a balance that you
27:55
don't need to collect endless infinite amount of data in order
27:58
for the results to make sense. You can actually drive the
28:02
baseline relatively straightforward in a, in a sense
28:06
of, I would say a few weeks of, of data consumption driving some
28:12
references or kind of referring from traits that you're seeing
28:16
in as to what the baseline should look like.
28:18
So there's a lot of inferring of data to kind of almost predict
28:23
what kind of the the baseline looks like.
28:26
And then based on that, you can start kind of highlighting,
28:29
highlighting abnormal behavior. And of course, you need to
28:32
constantly kind of train the model that that it can can learn
28:38
that it's on the right path or wrong path or wrong path.
28:41
And the models today really know how to train themselves much
28:44
more effectively and much better than I guess they did a decade
28:47
ago. So I think from that
28:50
perspective, you're reaching kind of a point where the amount
28:53
of data that you need to collect versus the output that is
28:56
precise and not just creating noise is becoming effective and
29:00
efficient that that that was not the case many years.
29:04
Ago. Oh, yeah, it's like you read my
29:06
mind because that's really what I was talking about when it came
29:08
to challenges was in the past, it seemed to me like use of
29:14
behavior just required tons of data to the point of almost for
29:19
some organizations being unrealistic, the amount of data.
29:23
So it sounds to me like if I heard you right, it's well we
29:28
need, I think you said a couple of weeks, maybe a month of data
29:34
and then it's about having the precision of the data, right,
29:39
not just getting data for the sake of having data.
29:42
Exactly, exactly. I think what we know what to do
29:45
very well in Exonius, but I think it's it's also general
29:47
today is to collect the right data points that can infer of of
29:52
patterns. OK.
29:53
So it's not like in the past that you collected barrages of
29:57
data and then kind of start applying a lot of cleansing on
30:00
it and so on. Today you really know how to
30:03
choose what are the data points within the logs, within maybe
30:07
the permission attributes, within the user attributes, What
30:11
are the data points that are actually going to be most
30:14
significant to infer what is that kind of state status or
30:19
like the the baseline state. And from that derive what,
30:25
what's kind of the anomalous behavior.
30:28
So it's it's much less logs, much less data that you need to
30:32
actually. Pick.
30:34
Yeah, I do want to clarify that. So when you talk about data,
30:37
you're talking about log data, right?
30:39
You're you're talking about collecting logs.
30:41
What are the the typical kind of systems that you're grabbing the
30:45
logs from? Yeah.
30:46
So it's not only logs, not only logs, it's a mixture of.
30:50
So if we speak about logs for behavior usage, it would be like
30:55
your Octa logs, your GCP logs, your Google Workspace logs and
30:59
so your entralogs and so on. But it's not only logs, it's
31:03
also the actual information on permission data that you get.
31:08
So like permission data from GitHub or permission data from
31:12
Salesforce or permission data from Monday.
31:15
Those are actually very, very valid points.
31:18
It's not just to see the the logs in terms of the usage.
31:21
Even seeing kind of a permission was changed over time X amount
31:26
of times or a permission was changed or elevated or de
31:30
elevated. That's also a very good source
31:33
of information. It's not just the fact that Jim
31:36
now did the login or, or another login or another login.
31:40
Yeah, yeah. That's important.
31:43
So I think you explained why somebody would want to exit is
31:48
what is the business problem that they're trying to solve.
31:50
You talked about how the system works and identifying that it
31:55
looks like Jeff's account is doing something that normally
31:58
doesn't do. So I assume at that point you're
32:02
doing some kind of alerting, like what is the output of the
32:06
XMU system? Very, very good question.
32:09
So I think what we realized that Exonius over the years is that
32:13
visibility, observability is actually great.
32:16
So observability, the way we define universal visibility is
32:20
like not just doing the visibility layer, but also
32:23
recommending of what it should look like.
32:25
OK, so that's kind of observability, but you cannot
32:28
really stop there. You need to drive then to action
32:31
and this is something that they we've invested a lot over the
32:35
last couple of years in Axonis in general in the platform of
32:39
driving more actions and building our action repository
32:42
sort of speak. So today we have over 400
32:46
out-of-the-box actions that we can drive from the platform.
32:49
Again, there are actions that are in the targeted systems that
32:53
we connect to. So for example, an action can be
32:58
decommissioning an account in Office 365 and an action can be
33:03
a revoking and a token extension and action can be open an alert
33:09
in your Splunk and so on and so on.
33:12
So there is various kind of types I would say between just
33:16
the e-mail alert and all the way to a kind of a more forceful
33:20
enforcement that you can drive in an in an application.
33:23
All of that are a set of actions that you can actually trigger
33:27
with workflows in Axonis. So let's take an example, a very
33:31
common one is non human accounts ownership.
33:34
That's probably the most common use case that we come across
33:38
with customers. They want to make sure that
33:40
every non human account has an owner 100% of the times.
33:43
So if Jeff now has five service accounts that he is responsible
33:47
for tomorrow morning Jeff is moving to another section of the
33:52
of the company and now no longer he's responsible for any service
33:56
accounts. What do you do?
33:57
You have those like headless service accounts that are
34:00
spinning around. Nobody's is is taking ownership.
34:03
You want to make sure that the immediately at that point of
34:06
time there is an assigned ownership to somebody else.
34:09
Let's say gym is the is the the the kind of super Uber admin in
34:14
the company. And maybe by default, every time
34:17
there is an admin that is moving that those service accounts
34:21
immediately roll over to gym. You can have an easy workflow
34:24
that that constantly monitors for anyone leaving, changing de
34:30
assigned, etcetera from specific service account in AWS.
34:35
And the moment it happens, this account is automatically
34:38
assigned to GM. We drive the action in AWS that
34:42
now the new admin of that service account is going to be
34:44
GM. That's a very, very kind of easy
34:47
example, but it can get more complicated than that.
34:49
It can be kind of workflows that are around movers, for example.
34:53
So people moving from one department to another, revoking
34:56
all of their permissions by default or actually giving a
34:59
grace time of not revoking the permissions and waiting and
35:03
maybe raising a ticket or opening kind of an alert to the
35:07
manager and so. On Mayor, I'm imagining that our
35:11
listeners or people checking this out on YouTube, it's a lot
35:15
to absorb because it seems like Axonia's really does.
35:19
It's almost like a Smithsonian. Like you've got the
35:22
intelligence, you get the visibility and the intelligence.
35:25
You've got traditional IGA schools to manage your
35:31
environment, but on top of that, you have this detective
35:34
functionality to see when accounts have potentially been
35:40
compromised and start to take action on that.
35:46
How many how many years does it take for a client to roll out
35:50
Axonius? Yeah.
35:52
So, so actually use the very common we we hear the Swiss Army
35:56
knife every time and and we didn't speak about it even when
35:59
we prepared for the for this. So Swiss Army knife is something
36:04
that we keep hearing again and again from customers because
36:08
like you said, I think the breadth of functionality that
36:10
exists index on his platform is really unbelievable.
36:15
Now to some extent, we actually want to make sure that it's a
36:19
very, let's say, easy to use Swiss Army knife, OK?
36:23
So it would be very intuitive for a customer to know which
36:27
like a wine screw bottle to open and which a specific knife to
36:33
pull out of this Swiss knife and not not be puzzled by too much
36:37
functionality and too much richness.
36:40
And the way we do it is first, we're now applying AI within the
36:45
platform, OK, of kind of recommending, so kind of more
36:49
this agentic AI concept of asking a question and getting
36:52
kind of the result and helping you navigate through.
36:55
Plus also, we have a very, I would say, relatively intuitive
37:00
and simplistic UI and UX ability that we applied especially in
37:06
IGA. I think it's super important.
37:08
And when we looked around to the existing IGA products out there,
37:13
existing IGA tools out there, I must say, a lot of the UX that
37:17
we found was very choppy, very kind of convoluted and and very
37:22
not intuitive. And that's why we put ourselves
37:24
as a, as kind of as a, a mission to make sure that it's very easy
37:28
to use. So you can become an expert on
37:31
Axonius, of course, endlessly. There's always more room to
37:36
learn and more room to to do. And especially if you connect
37:39
more data, then of course, each new data source has new aspects
37:44
that it adds to the, it adds to the mix, you know, so as the
37:49
more information that flows into XRM is, the richer it gets.
37:53
So that's why you know you, it's almost endless how much you can
37:56
become an expert. But I would say that with most
38:00
of our customers, first we have our own kind of technical
38:04
account managers that support customers during the onboarding
38:07
and make sure that they are acquainted.
38:09
We have also a lot of partners that they run very kind of
38:12
rigorous training and the certification programs.
38:16
But as a user, I believe within a matter usually of a of a
38:20
month, a couple of months, you can easily kind of be a
38:24
self-sufficient kind of expert sort of speak.
38:28
And the moment you want to do something more complex or of
38:31
course, we, we more than welcome the moment you see kind of a gap
38:34
that we need to, to address, we, we actually welcome that input
38:38
to work in there and achieve that with our customers.
38:41
Right. So it seems like kind of getting
38:43
off the block you can do relatively quickly.
38:49
I'm wondering with your clients or your customers, how you know
38:53
where do they normally start? So Jeff and I have been
38:55
consultants for a long time. In this identity phase, we often
39:00
use the term don't boil the ocean, right?
39:03
Correct. You know, don't try to actually
39:05
use the Swiss Army knife, but you don't need to learn how.
39:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you need to open a wine
39:11
bottle, use the Corkscrew and leave the other things till you
39:15
know phase two or whatever. Where do your clients?
39:19
How do they usually start? So, so I think actually going
39:23
back to this new category that Dartner created called IVIP, I
39:28
think that's, that's actually a very, very good place to to
39:31
start with Exonia. So creating this kind of
39:34
visibility intelligence, making sure that you have the initial
39:40
data sources connected. So kind of a maybe a dozen or 20
39:45
initial data sources that are the most important ones for the
39:48
organization connected, creating that first initial visibility,
39:53
unified visibility within their compensation and start driving
39:56
intelligence there. I would say that's probably
39:59
where I would start most likely in the identity hygiene side of
40:03
things. I think that's where you will
40:04
start kind of driving very immediate value out of, you know
40:09
off the shelf kind of within the first two months you will
40:12
achieve identity hygiene that would have taken you years to
40:15
achieve without something like a Sonius.
40:18
And from there actually start kind of defining your own kind
40:22
of road map into areas that are important for you.
40:25
For example, you want to tackle non human accounts because
40:28
that's kind of the new danger that they or the new risk that
40:32
you associated in the company or you want to drive.
40:36
As I mentioned before this Pam enhancement, we see that very
40:39
common actually with with customers these days.
40:42
So you can start there. You want to drive it more on
40:45
kind of compliance perspective because you're you now need to
40:48
have just the other day we had a prospect saying I need to meet
40:52
my socks in December and I must have a basic IGA program running
40:59
by December. Yeah.
41:00
So that's kind of a good, a good compelling event to drive kind
41:03
of compliance. Make sure you have your access
41:05
reviews. That may be the first thing that
41:07
you so it really differs from one area to another.
41:10
And I think that's kind of the value of Axon use.
41:13
That doesn't matter what's kind of the immediate use case that
41:17
you want to achieve. The moment you get this
41:19
visibility intelligence in place, you can then start
41:22
navigating for your own need within your own organization as
41:26
to what's the next step and the following step that you want
41:29
that you want to take forward. How do your?
41:31
Customers measure the value they get out of your solution.
41:37
So one very easy area that they, we've heard from a lot of
41:41
customers is by reducing the amount of cost that they need to
41:46
have on their identity on, on their IAM program.
41:50
So the amount of hours that they some, some are measuring, for
41:54
example, by the amount of tickets that they that they need
41:57
to manage the IAM tickets and that reduces significantly.
42:03
Another one can be by the, the amount of time that it takes to
42:06
to drive an audit A compliance. So our ability, for example, to
42:11
drive very, very efficient access reviews, recommending
42:15
actually managers what to what to approve, what to disapprove
42:19
and so on. That actually makes it much more
42:22
efficient and reduces the time for an audit.
42:26
Another, another aspect of course is just by the fact that
42:30
some companies need to have and IGA as as robust as, as can be
42:35
IGA programming place and with Axonius they can achieve that in
42:39
a matter of months. We, we just kind of had a
42:42
customer out of out of Georgia, you mentioned Georgia before, so
42:47
out of Georgia that they actually had to put an IGA
42:52
program in place. They were managing their IGA
42:54
manually for many years, like trying to do a lot of open
42:58
source and scripts and so on. And they outgrown as a company.
43:01
They already scaled up and they outgrown that.
43:04
And their KPI was to get to an IGA program by the end of the
43:09
year, make sure that they have a full identity, life cycle and so
43:13
on. And I'm proud to say that with
43:16
Exonucy, it didn't take a year. It took like 1/4 in order to in
43:20
order to achieve that. So that that was a very kind of
43:23
strong KPI they they were able to make to meet.
43:27
So you're tapping one of the hardest parts of anything in
43:29
identity, which is that visibility part, right?
43:32
Collecting, correlating and saying OK, here's Jeff and all
43:35
the X number of accounts, no pun intended, that I have, you know,
43:39
across the environment. Where does it go from here?
43:42
Because you mentioned things like IGA and I've always thought
43:45
of IGA as sort of the center of the universe when it comes to I
43:48
am right. It's the thing that typically
43:50
would collect here is Jeff, and then here are all the systems
43:54
that are connected to it off the different spokes.
43:56
Where do you see Exonius going from here?
43:58
Is it being that sort of source of truth for maybe not just
44:02
identity but other assets and other things that your platform
44:04
consumes as well or how do you see that taking place?
44:07
Yes. Absolutely.
44:09
So Axonius at the end of the day is a system of records.
44:12
You know, we are a data company. What you can drive is a Nirvana
44:16
of a data company is really to be a system of record and the
44:20
source of truth for the organization.
44:22
So we've already in many organizations are currently the
44:27
source of truth in the kind of traditional asset world and they
44:32
go to us as their source of truth for all of their physical
44:36
assets, cloud assets and so on. In many organizations where the
44:40
source of truth for anything to do with SAS in terms of
44:43
configurations etcetera and absolutely also in identities.
44:46
That's what we want to achieve. We want to be the source of
44:49
truth, the system of records for for many others.
44:53
One of our advisors when, when we were starting to think about
44:57
identities, he was actually an advisor for us also on the SSPN
45:02
side of things. And when we told him that, look,
45:06
we, we are actually exploring identities, etcetera.
45:08
And he said, are you really sure you want to do that?
45:10
That's very, very hard to do. And we asked him why.
45:14
Why do you think it's? He said, because you will become
45:16
you. You need to take upon yourself
45:18
to become the source of truth for identities.
45:21
It's like that's a very kind of challenging task to take.
45:27
And but then he continued in saying, but if there's any
45:30
company I believe can do that, you already kind of prove that
45:35
to me that you can do it in the, in the asset management set
45:37
space and now in the SSPM space. So if there is a place you know
45:41
that you should go to is that, but be prepared.
45:44
It's going to be very, very hard and we like doing hard things.
45:48
So so we we took the challenge. Well, you know, I ask that my
45:52
question every all the time, like why am I an identity?
45:54
And you're totally right, because it's always something
45:57
that comes along. That source of truth is such an
45:59
important part. But that's really only like half
46:01
the equation in my mind. So that's great to collect all
46:04
those data. A lot of companies collect data.
46:08
The question after that is like, well, what do we do with it,
46:10
right? Is there automation?
46:12
Are there insights we can drive? Right?
46:13
AI is kind of, you know, taking the forefront here of being that
46:16
thing, but how do you look at automation of that data?
46:19
Because it's one thing to discover.
46:21
It's another thing to. Absolutely, absolutely.
46:24
So as I mentioned before, visibility and observability is
46:28
just kind of the first step driving action ability, that's
46:32
kind of the end game. And the driving action ability
46:35
in identities is, is probably the most important thing.
46:39
You want to make sure that you have as much as automation as
46:42
possible that you can rely on, of course, but as much
46:45
automation as possible to drive your identity lifecycle
46:48
management, as much automation as possible to drive your access
46:52
reviews. For example, one of the ideas
46:55
that that we heard from a customer is saying forget of all
46:58
of those access you need, you need to have like self approve
47:01
access reviews and you need to rely on employees in the company
47:05
that will self approve their their own access.
47:08
You then need maybe to have automation that will certify
47:11
that their own self approval was actually the right one and there
47:14
was no kind of segregation of duty, you know, bridges that
47:20
happened. But if you can drive automation
47:22
that constantly monitors that, that constantly check, you can
47:25
actually save a lot of time. So the more automation that you
47:30
drive, the better. And I think that at the end of
47:32
the day, we also developed like a core workflow engine.
47:37
The real key essence is by the amount of actions that that
47:42
workflow engine can drive. And actions in our mind is the
47:46
amount of actions you can drive in systems themselves.
47:48
So we don't need to recreate actions.
47:51
We believe today in every tool, in every product that exists in
47:54
the organization, there is enough actions that can be taken
47:57
there. We just need to be able to
47:59
trigger them and and leverage them in the best manner.
48:03
And there will be new actions that come up based on new data
48:05
types and all that stuff, right? Absolutely, absolutely.
48:08
And and again, I, I think going back to MLAI that that's kind of
48:12
where where AI actually plays a very, very good role in terms of
48:17
driving smart actions and simple actions that constantly pop up
48:22
and, and, and can be addressed immediately.
48:25
So. We're going to have more
48:27
information, you know, in our show notes for people to check
48:29
out exonius.com/IDAC. What can people expect when they
48:34
get to that web page? Like what is, you know,
48:36
something that if I'm listening to this, I'm like, all right,
48:38
sounds interesting. Let me go check this out.
48:40
Can you give us a little bit teaser of of what people will
48:42
find there? Sure.
48:43
You'll see there are a lot of use cases that we discussed here
48:47
around, for example, NHI monitoring around our concept
48:52
that we didn't go into here of moving from roles to rules.
48:56
So the industry has ever been in kind of the role management
49:01
chasing the tail type of exercise of constantly managing
49:05
the roles. We believe that there should be
49:07
a shift from roles to rule management.
49:09
And you'll get to see some of our philosophy around there.
49:12
You'll get to see some of the use cases such as Pam
49:15
augmentation and so on, how we leverage a machine learning for
49:20
role mining capabilities and many other kind of the use cases
49:23
that that we discussed here. Are you guys going to be at any
49:27
conferences coming up and when this airs, it'll be in
49:29
September, but I imagine maybe things like Gartner or maybe
49:32
Ideniverse or things like that. Yeah, absolutely.
49:35
So we are, we are very much looking forward to being in
49:39
Gartner Grapevine in the Identity and Access Management
49:43
Summit. It's going to be our second one.
49:45
So you know, we're we're newbies to the community.
49:49
So it's a it's really, really and actually we didn't mention
49:53
that at the beginning, but I think it's very humbling
49:55
experience to be part of this identity community.
49:58
I'm coming from cyberspace for many years to RSA and others and
50:03
and cyber has become kind of a bit of a jungle to be honest.
50:08
Whereas identity, the identity community still has this very
50:12
unique tight community feel to it.
50:15
I've seen it in, in Gartner Grapevine last year.
50:18
I've seen it in Gartner in London last year.
50:20
I've seen it in identity verse in Las Vegas.
50:23
It's like people know each other.
50:24
People really feel for each other.
50:26
People have been in the trenches together and there's a lot of
50:29
knowledge sharing and much less kind of, I would say competition
50:34
or kind of much less kind of a wall building.
50:37
So I, I really, really, I've enjoyed, you know, almost every
50:42
practitioner I've I've met so far.
50:43
So it's really, really nice to be part of this kind of cozy
50:48
community, if I may say so. So yeah, definitely we're, we're
50:51
going to be again in a, in Gartner in Grapevine.
50:54
And I would welcome anyone that wants to have more time with us
50:58
and we're gonna be their full team to kind of learn more about
51:02
the product and what we've experienced and and also give us
51:04
suggestions of what else we should be doing with this kind
51:07
of data first approach. And of course, later of the
51:10
year, you know, in in Gartner London and identity verse again.
51:13
Absolutely. Well, Jim and I are going to be
51:16
a Gartner, so we'll make it a point to stop by and say hello
51:19
and give you the official fist bump of gratitude for the
51:22
Identity Center podcast. I want to wrap up the
51:24
conversation with a little bit sort of non I am kind of talk
51:27
here. We were talking as we kind of
51:29
got prepped for the session, that you got into skiing and you
51:33
also have some kids. And I'm wondering, do your kids
51:35
ski? First of all, that's the first
51:38
question. Do your kids ski yet?
51:40
Yes, so both of my daughters ski.
51:43
I have a four year old daughter and a 7 1/2 year old daughter.
51:47
The four year old daughter started skiing last year.
51:49
So for somebody from Israel, that's not, not normal.
51:53
We don't have a lot of snow in Israel.
51:55
So, but yeah, I, I made it as a kind of, as a, as a mission to
51:59
make sure that my, my passion and hobby I can enjoy with my
52:03
daughters. I like enjoying stuff with them
52:06
and, and having the experience with them.
52:08
Speaking about identity, I like kind of see how their identity
52:11
is being built, you know, over the years.
52:14
And for me, skiing is part of my identity.
52:17
And I, I'm still waiting for the, you know, for the time
52:20
where I can be on the slopes together just with the two of
52:22
them. And, but it's, it's great to see
52:25
how they, they first, they love the snow, which was like the
52:28
first fear. I didn't know how they will they
52:30
will take. And secondly, they actually kind
52:33
of enjoyed the challenge of learning something new that is
52:36
not very common. And it's like they're they're a
52:39
thing. So that's that's a very, very
52:41
nice thing to see. So I've never been skiing and I
52:45
feel like I would probably be on the four year old's level of
52:49
teach me how to ski. Like what is what is a pro tip
52:51
for people out there that are either like me, never been
52:54
skiing before or have, you know, younger children?
52:57
What is, was there like a tip or something that you can give
52:59
people say hey, here's how I would start.
53:02
I think the first thing is like forget about, like most people
53:05
fear about kind of the moment you're on the skis and you don't
53:09
have the regular control that you have over your feet, you
53:12
need to just go with the flow. OK, So don't be afraid to fall.
53:16
Actually falling is great. The earlier you fall, the better
53:19
because then you know what it is.
53:21
So like I encourage my daughters to fall actually, because the
53:25
month they fall and they know how to get up.
53:27
That's, that's good. You know, it's, it's kind of
53:29
like in, in, you know, in innovation, you need to fail
53:32
fast. So I would, I would say that
53:35
that's probably the best advice to fail fast.
53:37
So to fall early and kind of that removes the the fear away
53:41
and then just go with the flow like your legs will will let you
53:44
will will take you on, Don't worry.
53:47
Is there a dream skiing trip that you'd like to take with
53:51
your kids? Oh, absolutely.
53:53
Yeah. So the place I I enjoyed most
53:56
skiing in, which is like phenomenal, I advise any ski
54:00
lover to go, is in Hokkaido in Japan.
54:04
You ski on a volcano. You have powder snow almost all
54:09
year round, like all season round, beautiful views.
54:14
You know, it's not as high, but beautiful, beautiful views.
54:17
Then at the end of the day, you end in an on sand, which is a
54:20
hot spring, which is another experience.
54:23
And I love Japanese food. So you have best Japanese food
54:27
that you can dream of. So yeah, my, my dream is really
54:30
taking my daughter. And I actually we went with our
54:33
daughters to Japan last year and they love Japan.
54:37
My my young girl the other day was at camp and she did the
54:40
cupcake and that she came back and said, see that?
54:44
You see what, What did I draw here?
54:45
I told her it's a mountain. She said, no, it's not the
54:47
mountain, it's Mount Fuji. I want to be back there.
54:52
So yeah, they love Japan. So definitely going skiing in
54:55
Japan, in Hokkaido with my daughters, that's that.
54:57
That will be a dream come true. That sounds great.
55:00
I mean, obviously it made an impression if they're drawing
55:02
mountain, you know, drawing pictures of mountains of that
55:04
I've. Only been to Japanese airports.
55:06
They keep talking about Japan every almost every other day.
55:10
That's a bucket list spot for me, Jim.
55:13
Have you been skiing? Jim, I think I might have asked
55:14
you this before. Yeah, yeah, I've skied a few
55:17
times, but I can I consider myself a beginner or someone who
55:21
sucks at it. So at this I can really give you
55:25
tips. First off, I think I'm yours,
55:27
right? You're going to fall.
55:29
Just wear a lot of padding. I don't try to go skiing in like
55:33
blue jeans and like you got to get ski pants because otherwise
55:38
you end up wet and cold and then it's just like a bad experience.
55:43
So if you're going to do it, I say get, you know, make the
55:48
investment, get good ski pants, a good ski jacket so you're not
55:51
cold the whole time. And then so my #1 tip would be
55:56
take a lesson. Even if you're in your 50s or
56:01
even older, it might be kind of embarrassing to be there with
56:05
Amir's 4 year old but or she even she might fly by you as you
56:12
are taking your lesson. Who cares?
56:15
Just suck up your ego and do the lesson.
56:19
Not at all. That, that that's exactly what
56:21
my, my wife did a few years ago. So when we got married, I told
56:24
her, too bad you have to learn skiing.
56:27
That's what we're going to do every winter.
56:29
And actually, yeah, she she took a lesson and, you know, she was
56:32
already old. She took a lesson.
56:34
And actually, she started at the beginning she was cursing me.
56:38
But now, now she's starting to get the hang of it.
56:40
And she she loves it. Yeah.
56:42
Yeah, you're going to have to edit that out because Amir just
56:45
called his wife old on and it's good.
56:48
This episode is going to live on the Internet forever and I don't
56:53
want the poor guy to get in trouble.
56:54
So you're absolutely. Right.
56:57
Maybe we'll use AI to like, you know, over dub it with like, you
56:59
know, experienced or something like that, right yeah wise,
57:03
right. Something that's like that.
57:05
Those are good tips. And the other thing I like I
57:07
think I like about skiing is you can be totally anonymous if you
57:10
want to do it right. So if you are sort of and you
57:12
know that self-conscious, you can throw on a ski goggles and a
57:16
pad and you'll go to, you know, I would put on like the old
57:19
Groucho Marx glasses with the fake mustache, the big nose,
57:22
just to be, you know, clear, you know, that kind of thing.
57:25
And and but so Jim, you mentioned the wearing the ski
57:28
pants as a Chicagoan and that for my almost my entire life,
57:34
you know, I'm thinking like shorts and like, you know, you
57:37
know, a hoodie, right, something like that.
57:39
Like that's the official winter gear of a of a true Chicagoan, I
57:42
feel like. Yeah, but a true Chicago is not
57:45
falling in in the snow every 5 minutes, so you do what you
57:50
want. All right, let's go ahead and
57:53
leave it there for this week. Amira, thank you so much for
57:56
spending time with us and getting us up to speed on
57:58
Exponia. So we're going to have a bunch
57:59
of links in our show notes for people to check out.
58:01
We'll have a link to your LinkedIn profile so people can
58:03
reach out with either questions about that or skiing or whatever
58:06
it may be. You can visit them on the web,
58:09
axonious.com/idac. There'll be some more
58:11
information right there. Again, that'll be a link in our
58:13
show notes. And yeah, I think that'll do it
58:16
for us. Visit us on the web
58:17
idacpodcast.com. Show support.
58:20
Like subscribe, do all those fun things to share out with people
58:22
so we can get great guests like a mirror to come back and share
58:25
more stories with us. So with that, we'll leave it for
58:28
this week. Thanks everyone for watching and
58:30
or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
58:35
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
58:38
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
58:42
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
58:46
website at identity@thecenter.com.
58:50
See you next time on Identity at the Center.