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What We Don’t Talk About: Sex, Shame, and Sunday Faith | 왠지 말하기 어려운 얘기들: 성, 수치심, 그리고 교회 이야기 · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

0:00
Oh, if I date for fun, I'm a horrible human being.
0:03
And then if I'm dating, then you know, oh, we can't hold hands
0:07
and we can't kiss and anything like that.
0:09
And if we, if we cross the line, oh, I'm such a horrible human
0:12
being. And then when they get married,
0:15
all of a sudden they're expected to flip the switch and now
0:20
become sexual beings again. I understand why they tried to
0:24
do it, but I don't think that's necessarily the solution.
0:28
There needs to be some other way other than just purity of
0:34
thought, purity, purity, purity and an abstaining from
0:37
everything. And then and then comes the the
0:41
unreasonable expectation of becoming very sexually healthy
0:45
when you become married. When I counsel some people and
0:47
they were telling me like, I had a lot of sexual problems in
0:52
marriage because psychologically their brain just kind of shut
0:57
off for many, many years. And then how am I expected to
1:01
turn that part on again just because I'm married now?
1:04
The church message about sexuality has definitely
1:10
impacted our our view of ourselves.
1:14
It has and then it has impacted marriages today and it's these
1:21
are things that I think we should probably address early,
1:24
like in middle school and high school even.
1:27
Hi, this is your host Minley. I'm excited to bring you a
1:30
mental health series. Let's talk Maui Yagi.
1:34
I'm super excited to have Rory Kim.
1:37
He's self-described as broker between the addict, the betrayed
1:44
and the divorced and the church. Wow, that's a lot.
1:50
Can you please explain to me what that means?
1:53
Yes, yes, those, especially with the sexual addiction, which is
1:58
what I specialize in, in my, in my professional work, they, they
2:03
tend to completely hide themselves within church
2:07
communities who messed up? Or maybe the church will look
2:11
down on me because I divorced. And sadly, there are many
2:15
churches who don't know what to do with divorced people.
2:20
I feel just really badly for all three of those demographics.
2:25
And so I, I tried to write, I tried to podcast about that
2:32
those issues so that we can increase our our helpful
2:37
language between those four parties.
2:41
And I would say since that time, maybe 75% of my clinical work
2:51
involves helping people learn how to move away from
3:01
pornography, viewing payment for sex, chronic, chronic
3:08
infidelity, you know, that kind of those kinds of issues that
3:11
really destroy the self and destroy the, the, the
3:15
relationships. You know, I, it's, even though
3:18
it's hard work, I find it, it's kind of like a calling for me
3:21
because there's just, there's not many Asian American
3:26
Christians who specialize in that, but there's many, many
3:31
clients out there, like potential clients out there who
3:37
need that kind of help. But most of the professionals
3:41
who are doing that work are Caucasian and maybe half of them
3:46
are Christian and half of them are not.
3:47
But still, like there's some, there's a kind of a comfort when
3:52
you can go see a professional and that professional knows your
3:55
culture and they look like you. So I really wish that there will
4:00
be more Asian American and Korean American Christians, men
4:04
and women who can, who can do this work.
4:08
You know, Roy, I think for Asian people in general, sexuality is
4:15
very something very, very hard to talk about, isn't it?
4:18
Yes, almost impossible. Yeah, yeah.
4:22
So I could understand why there are so little, so few of
4:27
therapists who specializes in these topics or areas.
4:32
And also it's. You just want to avoid it.
4:35
Of course, of course, it will usually take some crisis for
4:41
them to reach out for help. If it's if it's just kind of
4:45
like a problem but it hasn't reached emergency time yet, then
4:50
they'll probably just chummel, you know?
4:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's with any type of mental
4:55
issues, right? Yeah.
4:56
Mental health issues we just don't like go seek therapy or
5:01
help. We just tumble everything.
5:03
Exactly. Yeah, hoping that you'll go
5:06
away. And then when they not just not
5:10
just the tumble and then, but then they also keep it a secret
5:13
from their family members. And then, and then that's when
5:17
the, the, the spouse feels the betrayal like you deceived me,
5:22
you know, because with some other mental health issue, maybe
5:26
they can see that their spouse is depressed.
5:29
They can see that their spouse has had some kind of a manic
5:33
episode. But then with the sexual
5:36
addiction, if they have been watching pornography in secret,
5:40
they can continue to keep that a secret for a long, long time.
5:43
And that's where the betrayal comes because they realize,
5:46
like, wow, you've been lying to me for years, you know, and they
5:49
couldn't catch it. Even in just in church, in
5:53
Christian community, it is such a serious, real problem, but we
6:00
just don't talk about it and we just want to pretend that it
6:04
doesn't exist for us or people say, oh, just pray hard, pray
6:10
harder, pray harder. I know.
6:13
Well, not to expose anybody, but there there was someone in the
6:19
community that a pastor really had a lifelong addiction to
6:27
pornography. I'm not surprised, yeah.
6:30
And it's not a unique case, I don't think.
6:33
But I was flabbergasted when this was exposed and the pastors
6:40
around him were giving advice to the wife.
6:44
They oh, he'll get over it. You have to Tamil, you have to
6:48
understand this is like all the guys, this is a man thing.
6:54
And so I was shocked and actually angry at those these
6:59
well known pastors are saying giving this advice.
7:03
Yes, yes. And it's kind of AII feel like
7:07
it's kind of a hypocrisy too, because the they might, they
7:16
might say, you know, hey, you know, all men do it and then
7:21
just just wait and it'll sort out eventually.
7:26
But then if they find out that someone else in the congregation
7:30
is doing some other kind of sin, they may not give that same
7:35
advice to that person. They might actually use language
7:38
that shames that person. So I don't think that's fair.
7:42
You know, you know, you mentioned this is a big problem
7:46
in the church. There's actually statistics that
7:51
support that. There was a research study where
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Christians were anonymously given a survey about their their
8:07
pornography use and then their role in the church and then men
8:13
in the church. They self report around 60% of
8:19
the men use pornography as a kind of habitually.
8:24
You know, they viewed it habitually.
8:27
About 25% of women, same thing. So even though it's less than
8:33
the men, it's still a pretty big problem for women too.
8:36
And then roughly 50 to 55% of pastors habitually viewed porn.
8:43
So when you say it's a big problem in the church, it's
8:47
probably a bigger problem than most other unhealthy behaviors
8:56
in amongst, you know, regular people.
8:59
And yet it's the problem that is least addressed because of the
9:05
shame. And then when this problem does
9:10
not get talked about, it's not as if the problem goes away.
9:14
And usually it gets worse. And then that's when, you know,
9:18
we have scandals and we have, you know, real big explosions
9:23
of, you know, marriage conflict and things like that.
9:27
And people have to resign. And then it's just it's become
9:30
so terrible. And so we do need to address it
9:35
head on. And that's why I feel like
9:37
that's, it's an important calling to be like a broker for
9:43
this topic. Because if you know, I, if, if I
9:47
don't continually speak into this issue, then who is going to
9:51
speak to the Korean American churches about this?
9:53
You know, I we need not just me, but we need a lot more people to
9:57
speak into this area. Or you are a ordained pastor.
10:00
Yes, I'm an ordained pastor. Before you became a therapist.
10:04
That's right. So what?
10:07
What Ledger to pivot to becoming a therapist?
10:11
Yeah, that's another story. Yes.
10:14
So back when I was in still in seminary and about to graduate,
10:23
I was actually thinking of becoming a full time missionary.
10:29
And then, of course, the irony is that that's when I met a
10:32
woman, you know, in seminary, during my last semester at
10:36
seminary. And then we ended up dating, and
10:42
then eventually we ended up marrying.
10:46
And then after about four or five years, you know, she ended
10:52
up betraying me with someone at our church.
10:57
And I was the pastor at that time, you know, so basically she
11:03
had an affair with someone that was one of my congregation
11:06
members. And it was just the, the
11:16
experience was maybe one of the most horrible things that
11:19
someone can go through. And then I questioned
11:22
everything. I questioned myself, I
11:26
questioned God, I questioned the church.
11:29
And then there was no real Rd. of reconciliation between us
11:35
because I didn't feel like she was making the effort to build
11:42
trust with me again. And that coincided with a time
11:49
when I was already starting to question, how long do can I?
11:55
How long can I pastor? I, you know, I felt like every
12:02
year that went by that I was pastoring.
12:04
I've, I was losing my energy for pastoring and I started getting
12:08
really scared because like this is all that I know as a pastor,
12:13
I do some counseling and I actually enjoyed it, but I don't
12:17
know what it's like to do like professional counseling.
12:20
So I ended up taking a step of faith and then I entered into
12:26
Graduate School to learn clinical counseling and I
12:29
realized that clinical counseling is very different
12:32
than pastoral counseling. And, and and that's, it was
12:40
around that time that, you know, all this stuff unfolded between,
12:44
you know, my, my ex-wife and me and we ended up divorcing back
12:47
then. And but it was, I think it was
12:54
kind of a gift from God, even though the the divorce was
12:59
traumatic, I think God gave me the gift of finding a career
13:06
that kind of matches my personality.
13:10
And he also gave me like really great friends in that Graduate
13:14
School that helped me to feel like stable again, you know,
13:22
because I was like all over the place mentally, all over the
13:25
place, emotionally, all over the place.
13:27
And, and they really helped me to get stabilized and then even
13:33
excited about my future eventually, but it took a while
13:36
to get there. I mean, I could imagine divorce
13:41
for anybody is traumatic. A devastating.
13:44
Experience, but for a Christian pastor.
13:48
Yeah, you know, that can. There's not many stories where
13:53
this Hamolinem, you know, is the one that's having the affair
13:56
with someone at your church, right.
13:58
Like. Oh.
13:59
My goodness. You know, if you think about
14:01
like sometimes the, the gossip that goes around and they say,
14:04
Oh my gosh, I can't believe this Hamolinem, you know, did this,
14:07
that kind of thing. And I was like, it's not just
14:09
anyone's story. It's like, I can't believe it's
14:11
my story, you know? So yeah, it is.
14:17
It was devastating. And I had so many
14:19
disappointments with with the the head mukhsani and some of
14:28
the elders. It just, this is one of the my
14:32
motivations to be a broker because many pastors and elders
14:36
need guidance. They don't know what to do.
14:41
You know, they're just, they're just so filled with awkwardness
14:46
and shame. So they just kind of, they're
14:50
it's just how do you say just just, yeah, you know, for sure?
14:57
Yeah. And then so they, they don't
14:59
know what to do. And so that makes it worse.
15:01
They don't know what to say. Well, like what do?
15:03
What do I do with this little potato?
15:05
Right? Exactly.
15:06
Right. Oh wow.
15:07
Oh wow. My head pastor, even though he
15:11
found out what happened, he didn't reach out to me not even
15:15
one time. Yeah.
15:18
So I was thinking, oh, am I? Do I have that kind of
15:23
relationship with you, that when I'm going through this kind of
15:26
tragedy that you don't even reach out to me, you know?
15:28
So it was very, very disappointing and left a very
15:34
bad taste in my mouth. Yeah.
15:37
I mean, why? Why is that, you think?
15:43
And I wonder whether he's alone. I bet you there are quite a few
15:46
other pastors who have the same kind of behavior.
15:49
They. Just.
15:50
You know, because my theory is that if if he.
15:57
I think most pastors, they want to help and they want to make
16:02
sure that what they're in their attempt to help that it actually
16:05
is helping, right? Because if if you if you attempt
16:09
it and then the person rejects it or makes you look bad, then
16:13
you feel bad about yourself. So I feel like because he
16:16
doesn't know what to do rather than try to help and me tell
16:21
him, you know, no more signing. I don't, I don't want that kind
16:23
of help that he doesn't want to face that kind of embarrassment,
16:27
you know, so better safe to just kind of, you know, not try in
16:32
the 1st place. That's that's one of my
16:33
theories. Yeah, well, I guess it's from
16:38
selfishness of some sort. I think so.
16:42
I, I think it is selfish because, you know, no matter
16:45
what, like it's not about performance, it's about love,
16:49
you know, like how do you actually attempt to love
16:53
somebody rather than wondering, Oh no, is this, is this going to
16:59
go badly, you know? Yeah.
17:02
And I, I feel like parents these days are getting better with
17:05
more education, Korean parents. But but back in the day, you
17:09
know, no one was educating our parents about how to empathize
17:12
and how to, you know, be very emotionally present with the
17:17
kids because they were too busy and that kind of thing.
17:20
So I don't really blame them. But I think what that this does
17:23
is it made our generation feel kind of like guide guideless,
17:37
you know, like we'd we don't we don't have a role model for how
17:41
to deal with people's pain and things like that.
17:44
We have to kind of learn it by ourselves.
17:46
And then when now that we are in these church spaces or, you
17:51
know, even with, you know, our own friends, if we don't really,
17:55
no, we've never really learned except maybe watching TV, you
17:59
know, how these white people on TV are, you know, doing these
18:03
things, then then we don't know what to do, right?
18:05
You know, So I feel like the reason why some, some, maybe
18:09
some white people are better at the, the empathy is maybe
18:14
because their parents already learned a little bit and they
18:17
know how to model that for them when they were children, you
18:21
know? Good point.
18:23
Yeah. I mean, you watch the white
18:24
people on the TV and, you know, the parents saying, oh
18:28
sweetheart, are you kidding? And and we look at our parents
18:33
going what it's. Like what, sweetheart?
18:37
There, one of my guests mentioned that because the kids
18:40
don't have any question when they come home to release this
18:44
tension and stress that they experience during the day and
18:49
they come home and there's no question we experience, we grew
18:52
up like that, like pushing things aside, just kind of
18:57
self-sufficiency. You know, you got to be strong.
19:01
You got to, you know, don't be weak.
19:03
So a lot of these things, even if I was experiencing infidelity
19:12
or addiction, addiction of any kind, I would not know what to
19:18
do. I would not be seeking therapy
19:21
because that's just not what we do.
19:24
I would not be talking to my pastor because you just don't
19:27
know what's going to get around. I would not be talking to my
19:30
friend, definitely, you know, in the church.
19:34
So we're all kind. I feel like we're all kind of
19:37
fragmented in the church. Yes.
19:40
On our own alone. Yeah, I think that's, that's,
19:44
that's the sad reality for I think most Korean Americans,
19:49
Christians or Asian American Christians, we have a lot of
19:53
work to do. You know, I think, I think this
19:55
kind of a podcast forum is one way to kind of chip away at that
20:01
problem. You know, more Asian American
20:07
Christian therapists need to write and they need to do, you
20:13
know, videos that churches can can watch and learn at least.
20:19
Maybe if we don't completely transform this generation, then
20:22
we do it for the sake of the next generation.
20:25
You know that that way we we have maybe about 30 years of
20:30
development and and and progress so that the next generation can
20:36
be even more capable of dealing with this kind of stuff than we
20:41
are. You know, So yeah, we have a lot
20:44
of work to do. Yeah, You know, yes, we do, We
20:48
do. I was a speaker at a youth
20:50
conference many years ago and then there was time when some
20:55
Korean pastor, youth pastor was having inappropriate sexual
21:00
relationship with the youth member, right.
21:03
It was a big news. And then because at the
21:07
conference, we're collecting like we're doing Q&A sessions
21:10
and one teenager with this question, what do you think
21:14
about this? And one of the pastors, and he
21:18
was, he's a Great American pastor therapist.
21:22
He said, oh, we should not talk about this.
21:24
Oh. My goodness, why?
21:27
What's his reason? His reason was, well, not
21:30
everybody knows about this issue, so let's not bring it up.
21:35
And I was the only woman in that group.
21:38
And I said, no, no, no, no, we need to talk about this.
21:41
He was more senior pastor and so he people decided not to mention
21:47
that. But guess what?
21:49
We had a live Q&A session and she asked that same exact
21:53
question. Good, good.
21:54
That pastor his his response is part of the systemic problem
22:07
that maybe because of his discomfort or he wants to
22:11
protect other people from discomfort.
22:16
Again, it, it sounds very Korean to me, you know, but at the same
22:20
time, we shouldn't just keep everything the same just because
22:25
it's Korean, you know, if there's something that is
22:28
causing damage, we should address it.
22:31
And even if it's not a Korean way of doing things, and I think
22:37
I'm thinking primarily about the victims, the more that we shine
22:42
a light on this and talk about it in a very uncomfortable way,
22:46
the more the closer that we get to doing something that actually
22:52
helps the victims. We spend way too much time
22:54
focusing on the perpetrator. That's not just in Korean
22:59
circles, but even just like, you know what Epstein and all that
23:02
kind of stuff. We focus way too much energy on
23:05
the perpetrator and we have to provide more and more resources
23:10
for the victim because they they deserve to have a full life
23:17
again. But if if no one is attending to
23:21
them and helping them to heal in the proper way, then what's
23:28
their future did that the perpetrators can go ahead and
23:31
continue to live their, you know, their, their sinful life.
23:36
But the perpetrator, but the victims don't, they don't have
23:38
that luxury, you know. So yes, I think it's right that
23:42
that woman repeated her question in the Q&A.
23:48
And I, I think more, hopefully more people follow that example
23:52
because every church needs to talk about this and have
23:55
procedures, the elders and the pastors, they should be
23:59
accountable for their own sexual sins and they should be able to
24:03
talk about it in a way that reduces this kind of damage in
24:10
the church. It's, it's a, it's a really,
24:12
really big problem and we can't solve it by being silent about
24:15
it. Right, Right.
24:17
Do you think you know the way we were taught in the church about
24:22
sexuality, homosexuality, lust, What else is there?
24:27
All these things, Yeah, really impact on how we see ourselves
24:34
as a human being. Yes, yes.
24:38
We're humans, right, with these feelings and desires and yeah,
24:42
yeah. What do you what do you say to
24:45
that? Well, I mean, one example
24:47
immediately comes to my mind is I grew up, you know, I remember
24:54
in the 90s there was the purity culture and, you know, people
25:02
made promises, things I will never do any sort of sexual sin.
25:06
I will stay away from all these things.
25:07
And so I, I think maybe the, I know, I understand the intent,
25:12
you know, because it felt like, oh, you know, if people are not
25:15
vigilant, then they're just going to be promiscuous and that
25:18
kind of thing. I understand that, but I think
25:21
the IT was very short sighted because I think most Christian
25:29
leaders didn't realize that if they give this kind of direction
25:35
and really not monitor how the students were receiving that
25:40
teaching, what they ended up doing was they felt like when
25:45
they had like natural desires, you know, natural sexual desires
25:50
for other people, even as a teenagers, they would just shut
25:56
it down. You know, they would just really
25:59
hate the fact that they were feeling sexual desires for other
26:03
people. And then all of a sudden, you
26:06
know, when you get used to hating not just your sexual
26:10
desire, but you start to hate yourself for having the sexual
26:12
desires, They continue that in college, like no, like yes, I
26:17
should be dating for marriage. You know, that was the big catch
26:21
phrase back then, dating for marriage.
26:23
And then, you know, not just dating for fun.
26:25
Oh, if I date for fun, I'm a horrible human being.
26:28
And then if I'm dating, then, you know, oh, we can't hold
26:32
hands and we can't kiss and anything like that.
26:34
And if we, if we cross the line, oh, I'm such a horrible human
26:37
being. And then when they get married,
26:41
all of a sudden they're expected to flip the switch and now
26:45
become sexual beings again. You know.
26:48
It's just a really weird way of thinking about our sexuality
26:55
that that I understand why they tried to do it, but I don't
27:02
think that's necessarily the solution.
27:05
There needs to be some other way other than just purity of
27:11
thought, purity, purity, purity and an abstaining from
27:14
everything. And then and then comes the the
27:18
unreasonable expectation of becoming very sexually healthy
27:22
when you become married. When I, when I counsel some
27:24
people and they were telling me like I had a lot of sexual
27:30
problems in marriage because psychologically their brain just
27:36
kind of shut off for many, many years.
27:39
And then how am I expected to turn that part on again just
27:43
because I'm married now? I said that makes sense to me.
27:46
Like it's, it doesn't work like that, you know, so not that I
27:53
have like a definite answer to this problem, but I think we
27:58
should talk about it. I think we should be more
28:02
nuanced in the way that we talk about it so that it's not just
28:07
avoid sin, avoid sex, you know, don't talk about it, you know,
28:10
that kind of stuff that it's not very helpful.
28:12
So yes, it has definitely the church, a message about
28:18
sexuality has definitely impacted our, our view of
28:24
ourselves. It has and then it has impacted
28:28
marriages today. And it's these are things that I
28:33
think we should probably address early, like in middle school and
28:36
high school even. You know, I have certifications
28:42
from many, many years ago on teaching purity and sexuality,
28:46
right? Because I was required by my
28:48
work at the time. And like, I was not, I don't
28:53
know, I was not really completely sold on the idea, but
28:56
I had to do it. After that.
28:58
Some churches have asked me to come and talk to their youth
29:02
group about sexuality and purity, and I did it a few
29:06
times. But while I was doing it, I was
29:10
like, I really hate myself for saying these things.
29:14
Like what am I talking about? Why am I saying these things so?
29:19
It's like a, it's like a betrayal of yourself.
29:23
You know, does does it really make sense?
29:25
Do these kids look like they're receiving this message?
29:28
No, they're like, Oh my God, what is she talking about?
29:31
The Ajima? So I stopped doing it.
29:35
I said even if the invitation comes, I said I don't know.
29:37
I don't, I don't I don't do that anymore, right?
29:40
Because I just didn't like the message and well, then, but then
29:44
what? What do I say?
29:45
Like, you know, explore your sexuality though.
29:47
But so I didn't know what to say.
29:49
So I stopped doing it. And still some people ask me,
29:54
can you talk to my teenager about like, no, you need to find
29:58
another counselor. But what my daughter said to me,
30:05
she was a teenager at the time. She said, you know, all the sex
30:09
educations, even at school, they talk about the function, the
30:12
things, the behaviors. But they never mentioned
30:16
anything about the emotions. The Yeah, she's.
30:19
Right, so. Yeah, I said, wow, that's really
30:23
amazing that you mentioned that. So that really made me think
30:27
twice about what was preached or presented right at schools and
30:31
churches. Yes, I agree.
30:34
But the other thing that really spoke to me in one of your
30:38
articles that you was internalized racism, how you
30:42
view as an Asian American teenager boy particularly paved
30:48
your way of unhealthy sexual identity or self identity even,
30:54
right? Right, Right.
30:56
Yeah, I grew up in the Bay Area during a time these days, of
31:01
course, the Bay Bay Area is full of Asian American people.
31:06
But when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s in the Bay Area, it
31:11
was very, very white. My, my elementary school was
31:17
white. High school was white.
31:22
So, and everything that I watched on TV was white.
31:27
All the magazines were, everything is white, right?
31:30
So I wanted to be white when I saw even like teen romance on
31:42
TV. These were a white boy and a
31:44
white girl and, and I was very attracted to, you know, white
31:51
girls 'cause that's all there was.
31:57
So as I gradually developed the internalized racism, which
32:03
basically means I was, I was hating my own race, I started to
32:12
dislike the language. I started to dislike my name.
32:16
You know, my last name is Kim. It's like people said, oh, your
32:21
last name is a girl's name. I said, oh, man, you know, like,
32:25
why do I need to have this Kim last name, right?
32:28
And then, you know, my, my, my food that my mom lovingly
32:33
prepared for me. I started to reject it because
32:38
it was different than everyone else's food, so I wanted her to
32:41
give me sandwiches instead. You know, that kind of thing.
32:44
Like it's just So what this. We all went through that, right?
32:51
And then, you know, as I started to like girls, you know, hitting
32:56
puberty and everything, well, the girls didn't like me back,
33:02
you know, so the girls liked white boys, the white girls like
33:09
the white boys, even the Asian girls like the white boys.
33:14
So I was just thinking, there's really nothing that I can do
33:23
other than to hate myself and to ask God why, Like, why was I
33:27
Korean? You know, why is my family
33:29
Korean? And for a lot of people who will
33:36
grow, grow up with that kind of powerlessness and the
33:39
frustration that that level of self hatred starts to go towards
33:52
a path of fantasy. So for me, OK, sometimes the
34:00
fantasy was more like, you know, playing with my toys and video
34:05
games, that kind of thing. But the other fantasy especially
34:08
started as I started to develop, you know, even sexually was to
34:13
fantasize about girls, whether it's through R rated movies,
34:18
whether it was pornographic magazines, you know, things like
34:22
that. And so I would in my, and I
34:29
didn't even know that I was doing it at the time, but it was
34:31
looking back, it was my form of self comfort that that I was
34:39
consoling myself for being unlovable, unattracted,
34:49
unattractive to the to the girls that I knew.
34:53
And also even like, you know, I knew that I had no chance with
34:56
like celebrities or anything like that.
34:58
So fantasy was the only place that I can feel that I was
35:03
sexually attractive and wanted by someone, even just in my own
35:07
head. And this is actually the
35:10
experience of a lot of people that I'm working with
35:13
professionally is that they go into these fantasies, whether
35:18
it's because of internalized racism, whether it's because of
35:21
domestic violence, whether it's because of a feeling that their
35:25
parents didn't give them any attention, rejected by girls or
35:30
guys at school. They would just enter into
35:32
fantasy. And then when you do that, you
35:36
know, it becomes kind of like an emotional survival strategy, but
35:40
then it stays secret. And then it becomes a habit
35:46
because you do it so often. And then the problem is we then
35:49
take that child adolescent fantasy into adulthood.
35:55
And then that's when we get into real trouble because we don't
35:58
know how to get out of that fantasy.
36:01
And we keep the secrets. And now our partner feels so
36:04
betrayed by us, You know, So that's, that's how my
36:09
internalized racism turned into like sexual fantasizing for me.
36:14
Yeah, and I'm sure it's not rare.
36:16
I mean, it's not just you. So many boys, so many men,
36:19
right? Especially, I mean, I don't
36:21
know, maybe things a little bit better these days because the
36:24
Asian culture or Korean culture particularly is so well received
36:29
and popular. But I see so many, especially
36:35
the boys, teenage boys, when they're going through all these
36:41
very complex and confusing times, you know, on top of that,
36:46
they exactly, like you said, are not attractive.
36:50
You know, the, the girls go for the white boys or the athletes
36:54
or, you know, not especially the nurse or whatever, right?
36:57
That we are categorized, right. So and, and, and people that I
37:05
know who have lifelong addictions, sexual addictions,
37:11
particularly with pornography, shared very similar stories.
37:17
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
37:19
Yeah. The you know, and the statistics
37:22
also show, you know, there's actually statistics for things
37:25
like eHarmony and. Tinder.
37:32
Hinge and Tinder, things like that, they, they compile all the
37:37
data when it comes to the, the ethnic, ethnic percentages and
37:43
you know who is seeking whom and Asian men are the least sought
37:51
after. You know, you can do the check
37:53
the boxes, you know, who are you open to dating?
37:56
Caucasian, black, Hispanic, you know, Native American, you know,
38:01
Middle Eastern. And then Asian men, Asian men
38:05
are the least, whereas Asian women are pretty high up there,
38:11
you know, because, you know, white men like Asian women,
38:15
black men like Asian women, Hispanic men like, you know, but
38:18
then white women don't choose Asian men.
38:24
Hispanic women don't choose Asian men, so on and so forth.
38:28
So when the the statistics actually support what the Asian
38:33
men are already feeling that they are the least desired and
38:36
the only, you know, clinical chance is another Asian woman
38:41
wanting them. But there's a lot of competition
38:44
because every all the other races they like the Asian women
38:48
too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:50
I'm not surprised. Yeah.
38:52
So let's talk about as a pastor, as an ordained pastor, as a
38:57
therapist and as a male, right? These things are very much
39:03
reality of our community. So instead of saying, oh,
39:09
they'll grow out of it or it gets better or, you know, work
39:14
itself out, Yes. What can church do?
39:18
How can we help? OK, as soon as you ask the
39:27
question, I have an immediate answer.
39:34
The leadership needs to share their sexual struggle.
39:41
That is the number one answer. Is because.
39:46
Is because the congregation will follow the culture that the
39:55
leadership establishes. It's asking too much for the lay
40:01
person to be the first person that opens up.
40:05
It's asking too much. They are at the bottom of the
40:08
the hierarchy, you know, Yeah, it's the leadership that needs
40:13
to take their own step of faith and they need to.
40:19
Maybe trust in the the gospel culture that they are trying to
40:24
establish in the church and say the Lord is with me as well.
40:29
The Lord loves me and the Lord wants me to solve my problem as
40:33
well. And I need to take a stand.
40:36
And I need to say that this issue is not just for you people
40:40
over there, but this issue is for me too.
40:42
You know, it's a big challenge that I'm verbalizing here, but
40:51
it's the most logical answer I can come up with.
40:54
It's the most practical answer. And I know that many pastors
40:58
feel like this will be career suicide for them if they are to
41:06
say, yes, I have a problem with porn too, you know, I have a
41:10
problem with objectifying people and, and, and lusting after, you
41:17
know, whatever. But I tell you, there will be a
41:23
revolution in our churches if that percentage increases, the
41:31
percentage of pastors and elders, people who are in
41:34
leadership who can say, I need help with this too.
41:42
It will make so many people feel safe to say, Oh my gosh, like
41:48
Moksa name, thank you for saying that.
41:50
You know, like I, I, I thought I was the only one.
41:55
But now that you said it, and maybe even like the, the pastor,
41:59
the, the moksa name is going to be involved in like a maybe a 12
42:03
step group, you know, at church or something like that.
42:07
Or, or the, they, they hire, they hire a consultant or
42:13
workshop trainer to come to their church and the book sign
42:15
names there in the front row and the book sign names asking
42:18
questions too. Can you imagine what kind of
42:21
effect that will have on the people, right?
42:23
It's like it, it will be, it will be, it will be
42:29
revolutionary. Now, maybe in some first
42:33
generation churches, the congregation will say we have to
42:39
kick him out. We have to kick out this pastor
42:42
because they they put too much emphasis on the holiness of the
42:48
pastor that that's his professional job is to be holy.
42:54
And if he if he doesn't do a good job with being
42:57
professionally holy, then they got to kick him out and bring in
43:00
a new person. Maybe first generation is is
43:03
that kind of way, but it but in more kind of a westernized
43:08
people who understand a little bit more about live in Western
43:10
culture more. I think they can actually
43:13
respect the humility of a of a pastor or a leader who also says
43:19
this is my issue too and I think we need to tackle this together.
43:24
So that's that's my immediate answer.
43:26
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, but I don't know if I'll.
43:31
Ever see? That.
43:32
I'm kind of doubtful too. I'm kind of doubtful too.
43:35
But but I but they need to hear it that that's what's most
43:38
effective. You did say that the the sex
43:42
addiction recovery may be the most urgent ministry in the
43:45
church. What did you mean by that?
43:47
What I mean by that is if we go back to the statistics that
43:52
roughly 60% of men, around 25% of women and 5055% of pastors
43:58
are engaging in this habitually, it's becoming a problem for
44:02
them. This is the kind of issue that
44:06
will eventually come to the surface.
44:10
Think about that percentage that I mentioned.
44:14
Those folks are in those ministries.
44:16
So the porn issue and the payment for sex, all that kind
44:20
of stuff. They are in within the missions
44:22
ministries, they are within the marriage ministries, they are
44:24
within the homeless ministries. And eventually it's going to
44:31
come to the surface. This issue is so urgent because
44:36
people are trying to do these other ministries while telling
44:39
secrets, while keeping secrets and doing these things that are
44:44
destroying like the, the, the the very framework of those
44:51
ministry structures. Can you imagine if the marriage
44:55
ministry leader is also has their own like prostitution
45:00
problem or massage parlor problem, and now they have to
45:05
explain to their all the marriage ministry participants
45:11
why they're having a divorce is because of their sexual
45:15
addiction. And yet they're the ones who are
45:20
trying to teach these people, the participants about a healthy
45:24
marriage while they're keeping secrets in their own marriage.
45:27
It's, it's a hypocrisy, right? And so I'd, I'd much rather
45:32
people focus on treating the sexual addiction problem so that
45:40
they actually bring their authentic self to the marriage
45:44
ministry and the missions ministry and the homeless
45:47
ministry. I think that's a, that's a
45:48
better priority because otherwise we're just pretending,
45:54
you know, we're doing the good works of those things, but our
45:57
soul and our mind is distracted by these lustful things and, and
46:04
the conflict between the husband and the wife and all that kind
46:07
of stuff. And it's I feel like the the
46:12
priorities are backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:16
Because we are sexual beings. Yes, yes, yeah.
46:20
And we should, we should be honest about this stuff.
46:22
You. Know it's heartbreaking, yeah.
46:28
Because it affects so many people and the church at large,
46:34
right? Because when our leaders are not
46:37
healthy, they hear affected. And of course, you know the
46:42
other way around as well. And the witness is that when
46:47
when people on the outside of the church, they hear about all
46:51
another scandal, you know, another sexual scandal in the
46:54
church. They're like, you know, you
46:57
church people, you, you, you speak such high language, you
47:02
know, and you, you, you judge homosexuals and you judge other
47:07
people, but you don't even know how to have your like your own
47:09
heterosexual healthy marriage, you know, like you're a bunch of
47:12
hypocrites. And that's why our witness is so
47:15
poor is because we, we, we, we pretend like we have all this,
47:23
you know, goodness about us. And we are so judgmental to
47:27
people on the outside. And then everybody's watching
47:31
and they're waiting to see what happens.
47:33
And when inevitably the scandal comes because no one is
47:36
addressing the sexual addiction, yeah, then the the witness of
47:41
the church gets worse and worse. Yeah, yeah.
47:44
And it's sad because even for me, when I hear about some sort
47:48
of a big Christian leader falling because of sexual
47:53
addiction or the habits, I'm not even surprised.
47:56
I'm not surprised too. Yeah, yeah, because we one,
48:00
we're people. We're human beings and we had
48:03
desires. And also there are cause I've
48:05
seen so many in my lifetime of these things really playing out
48:09
in in the crucial community. So I think what you're saying is
48:14
that rather than hiding it, let's bring it out to the light.
48:18
Yeah, right. And I'm so honored and grateful
48:22
that we are able to have a very honest conversation about this
48:26
topic. There are so many more.
48:28
I have so many more questions but.
48:31
Maybe we could save for another time.
48:32
Yes, yes, yes, for sure I hope that we might get in trouble by
48:38
some people in the community, but I hope that at least we this
48:44
episode will help people start thinking about hey, what is the
48:47
language that I want to use to talk about this issue?
48:51
How can we stop pretending like it doesn't exist and help one
48:56
another right? Encourage one another, build up
48:58
one another? Isn't that what God wants?
49:01
Yeah, I, I think so. And you know, my, my expectation
49:05
is not that everybody would think like me, but I hope that
49:09
anyone who's listening realizes that there are different
49:12
opinions out there. Yeah.
49:14
You know, I'm, I'm one of those people that may be very
49:17
different opinion than another Korean American person.
49:20
And that even though we are kind of A, and we are known to be
49:24
kind of a homogeneous society, but still it's OK for Korean and
49:31
Korean American people to have different opinions about things
49:34
and we are different unique individuals, Yes.
49:37
How scary that is to have a different opinion.
49:42
Yes, I know, I know. So tell us about your private
49:47
practice. How can people reach out to you?
49:50
So I have a private practice that's mostly online therapy
49:55
within the state of California. It's called New Legacy Family
50:01
Counseling and the website is New legacycounseling.com.
50:08
And I'm also doing some corporate coaching and like
50:18
nonprofit and educational coaching that involves of all
50:23
things, Legos. Trainings using the Legos are
50:26
very, very interactive and fun and stimulating.
50:30
So that's, that's why that that training model was developed by
50:35
Lego Corporation for, to help businesses learn different ways
50:39
of training. So I, I do that as well.
50:41
And so that website is called Serious Playground dot org if
50:47
you want to check that out too. I will check it out.
50:49
Yeah, I hope we have another chance to talk about other
50:53
rebellious topics. Yeah, I'd be very open to talk
50:56
about the more rebellious the topic, the better.