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Transcript

Gender Roles in the House of God · Heart Religion

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Heart Religion, a conversation with the leadership of Redeemer Bible Church, where we desire to help all people know, love, and follow Jesus better by faith.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here today with Pastor Josh again.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We serve here together as part of the pastoral team at Redeemer Bible Church.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And today, we're going to have a conversation about something we've been preaching through.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, it's one of a more one of the more controversial topics that we preach through in the Word of God.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, Josh, before we kick into the conversation at hand today, I want to ask you a question because here at RBC, we preach through the Bible.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't just pick what we want to talk about.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's a fancy word, we call it sequential exposition.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we, as you know, we want to walk through scripture passage by passage so that really the priorities of the word set our agenda, rather than just us picking our hot button topics or what our pet topics that we want to preach through.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And really we want God to set the agenda of what's important to him.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so by walking through scripture sequentially, it really allows his word to dictate our priorities and and you know the things that are important to God.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why we're preaching now through the pastoral epistles.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: We saw this would be just beneficial, obviously, for just the church and understanding God's design for the church.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why we're in this text.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, really the danger, right?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't do sequential exposition, just preaching through the Bible, then really the church is going to get your biases, my biases, what we want to talk about that week versus just what's the Lord saying?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, what does he want us to learn as we just go through his word, which does present some unique texts.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: We get challenging texts that maybe in our humanity we'd skip over.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: If we didn't just preach through the Bible and just go verse by verse through the scriptures.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and so uh if you're watching this podcast at a later date, we just want to make mention that we're in the summer and fall of 2026.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that matters because what we're preaching through, we're going through the pastoral epistles, as you mentioned, particularly chapters two and three.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you are if you're following this, you know, years down the road, you might want to go back and listen to these sermons, uh, because they maybe will help, right, with what we're gonna talk about in these next few heart religion uh podcast episodes, as we're really trying to just sit in this text and really massage it a little bit, unpack it a little bit.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because sermons are good, but sometimes they raise questions.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And our hope is to work through some of those questions here together.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, Josh, just even before we read it, do you just want to kind of throw out like what are some of the counter-cultural cultural topics raised in First Timothy two alone?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, First Timothy two, Paul goes right after men's and women's roles.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it probably was controversial in his day, but it's definitely controversial in our day, just in light of our culture and how our culture defines men's and women's roles, how we talk about that, and what the Bible says that actually uh goes against some of what our culture says about men's and women's roles in particular.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and even having this conversation.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it some people may watch this and accuse us of being just kind of too chauvinistic, old school, sexist pastors talking about the roles of men and women.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and we hope to carry the conscience of all who listen that we're just trying to humbly, compassionately, clearly open up scripture.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And just say, what does God say for men and women, and that that we all then submit to scripture by faith and then work it out.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because that actually is what results in our good and God's glory.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's even the argument in First Timothy.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, really, the whole purpose of him including this in the book is he wants the church to be healthy, he wants it to be strong.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've mentioned before the key verse in 1 Timothy 3 about the church being a pillar and support of the truth.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh right before he gets into the controversial section on men's and women's roles, he Paul says God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need to keep it in that perspective that healthy churches built on a proper understanding of men's and women's roles and pastors and deacons' roles, uh, and just everyone's roles, really, in the church, is so that the church is healthy, so that people will be saved and the church be this lighthouse, this pillar in support of the truth.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love that, right?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because really, we're getting back into some fundamental uh truths.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like the church belongs to Christ.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like Christ died for the church, Christ is the head of the church, and then Christ dictates the terms for the church.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not us.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we shouldn't look to tradition or a denomination to figure out how do we do this thing, right?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes it's hard because the word of God is is pressing us kind of in these counter-cultural moves, but that's kind of the nature of scripture, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's always renewing our minds.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we're our thoughts are not God's thoughts.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture reveals God's thoughts to us, and then we can either disagree or humbly submit to them and then try to work those those thoughts of God out by faith.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really where we find ourselves in First Timothy chapter two, and uh, we're gonna pick it up in verse nine.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what Pastor Josh and I want to do here is really just work through the text in this episode.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: In the next episode, we're gonna look at some of the questions that it raises.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But this episode really is just gonna try to spend a few minutes kind of talking through the text.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how would we just faithfully read it and then understand it and apply it?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's let's get right into it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: We maybe we could even begin by just reading, uh beginning in verse nine.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says, likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair or and gold or pearls or costly attire, but that which is proper for women who profess godliness with good works.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some people probably just like stopped listening right there, you know, clicked off the clicked off this podcast.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this text clearly has just a lot of complexity.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, uh, you may want to reference the sermons we preached through this just to help uh you process the text a little more as we try to explain it in greater detail.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think, Josh, would it be too simplistic to say, especially verses nine and 10, they're they're really dealing with the heart of modesty and self-control, which is proper for a woman who professes godliness.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right on.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it has external implications and applications, but really God's always after for men or women, this modest, self-controlled heart.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: This idea that I don't have to be the center of attention.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Life isn't always about me.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be at the whims of every desire.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: That would be self-control, right?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can control my desires uh as I walk by the spirit, right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So really this, I mean, that's kind of we could get into the issue of dress that he uh that he clearly speaks of in verse nine and 10.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the heart behind it is really this modest self-control that's displayed in good works, which is uh another fascinating uh uh phrase that happens all over the pastoral epistles, right?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: This idea of just godliness with good works.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which then is gonna flow into roles, yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right as we as we submit our hearts to God's word by faith.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really where the challenge comes up is it this uh cross-counter-cultural message of let a learn woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what would you say?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what makes that so controversial?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shoot.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, I think it it just immediately challenges our cultural preferences and biases.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Even some of the ones are Christian biases, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So like we know that in Christ, male and female were equal.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we know that in Christ, all Christians, male and female, are gifted by the Holy Spirit for for his for uh God's glory and our good.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we know that women are called to uh to speak truth in love, and women are called to um to to pray and to sing.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we can jump to these other things, even as Christians, and just be like, oh, what does this verse mean?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how can this be true?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so the tendency amongst broader evangelicalism in this verse is often to just explain it away or explain what it doesn't mean, right, versus actually say, well, it does mean something, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: You and I like the the uh phrase unique contribution.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like every text has a unique contribution to the whole of scripture, right?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't just read this, and even though it's hard at first, we can't just dismiss it or explain it away.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have to ask the question, what does it mean?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then how do we move forward?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we could go there, uh, Pastor Josh.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how would we rightly understand this scripture where he's giving instructions to men and women, and you already mentioned chapter three, right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is for the house of God, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: In the gathered church.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's the overarching context.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But how do we how do we understand this?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Women, women learning quietly with all submissiveness.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think what's interesting is if you look at verses 11 and 12, really they're saying the same thing twice.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is helpful because they mutually interpret one another.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we read verse 11 and it's kind of hits us in the face, just learn quietly with all submissiveness.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we might think, well, just women should never talk.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But as you said, this is in the context of the gathered church.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then he defines it, you know, negatively by saying, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, rather, she is to remain quiet, which really speaks to the fact that in God's design, in his roles for men and women, women are not the ones called to authoritatively teach and preach the word uh over the body, the assembled congregation.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is really speaking of a specific situation.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now it has application elsewhere, but it's it's not just speaking about just quietness.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason we, you know, in in in church, period, and we know that because just the one-another's in scripture are calling men and women to exhort, encourage one another.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we know that even in Corinthians, Paul talks about everyone coming to with a song, and there was an expectation that the whole body would come and encourage one another and speak the truth in what love to one another.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And those are just expectations for the body.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: But this is in God's design for roles of men and women, talking about this authoritative teaching of the word, uh, that Paul is saying that women should should not have that role, but rather should have an attitude of teachability, uh, of and that's the contrast with even quietness.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just silence, it's not being disruptive, it's not um trying to say, no, that's not right, you know, I'm gonna tell you what's right.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but all of us really, when we come to gather together as a church, we're coming to submit to the word and under the teaching and preaching of it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting, right?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as we want to be uh informed by scripture, um, we have to always be careful to one, not proof text, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that idea of like we have one text that becomes our text for everything.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately in church history, some movements have taken this text and kind of made it everything, right?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just women really being silent, kind of doormats in the house of God.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we would be like, no, that's not one, it's not what this text means.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: But two, that would be an abuse of this text, and it would be maybe using this text as that proof text for something, versus kind of saying, okay, hold on, how do we understand this text in its context?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Which I think 11 and 12 have to well, really, the whole flow goes together, but 11 and 12 for sure.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then really, okay, what do we see in in the New Testament regarding um giftings and roles um and even how that's displayed in a right and beautiful way?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was even helped by the word quiet being referenced in chapter uh chapter two, verse two, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Of as believers pray for kings and those in high positions, they lead a peaceful and quiet life.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: This quietness doesn't mean you never talk.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was the idea of you're not disrupted, right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, interesting.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: The same word is brought back twice in 11 and then in 12.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And really, God getting into I have roles and they're good.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe that would be even something to just for us to consider.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do we believe that God is good?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of is a presupposition for even how we approach God in the Bible.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: If God's not good, then then his ways aren't good.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if God is good, then there's something here that God is revealing for his church, male and female, that's actually going to be good.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And now it may not strike us as good at first.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and that probably reveals more about us than the Lord.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we really have to come or come around with okay, what is the text saying?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then how do we understand it and how do we work it out by faith?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I appreciate what you what you did there with 11, and then showing really in God's design for his people, his house, uh, to use the language of chapter three, of not permitting a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, rather, again, the the phrase, she's remain quiet.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so, really, we're getting into the issue of leadership, and the which primarily is the teaching and preaching of the word.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right, which we believe is a major argument of First Timothy.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: The role of a pastor elder is to lead with the word, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's given to godly men.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: In in chapter two, we have this uh encouragement for godly women with who profess godliness with good works, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: These women who are mature in the Lord, really, is I think where he's getting after, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then that's gonna be when he turns to chapter three and immediately begins to define the character qualifications for an overseer or a pastor, what's he gonna do?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's godliness, yeah, right.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is what it looks like.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he's not just saying across the board, um men are by their gender qualified, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And women aren't.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's hey, here's how godly women operate, here's how godly men operate.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, right.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And really he's cutting both ways.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe you could get into a little bit why why do we think that this isn't just for Paul and his day?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this relevant for us today?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's let's start that discussion.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the text, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: If we just again we want to be faithful to the word and just keep going through it, right?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Where does he go in verse 13?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: For Adam was formed first than Eve.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he's gonna tie this all the way back to creation order.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's gonna get into God's design for uh male and female in the garden was Adam being the head, right, yeah, of his household.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he ties this back to creation here in verse 13, which means it's not culturally specific for Timothy in the city of Ephesus.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's key, understanding that Paul roots and grounds this command for women to uh not teach or exercise authority, but to learn quietly with submissiveness.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: He grounds it in Genesis 2 and 3.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that statement for Adam was formed first, then Eve.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: He's really, I mean, it's just one short little sentence, but I think by that he's referring to all of a Genesis 2.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you go back to read Genesis 2, you see God created Adam, he cre he gave him the command not to eat from the tree.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: He Adam named all the animals, which was uh an act of authority in the ancient Near East.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And all that was done before Eve was even created.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then Eve was created and brought to Adam as a helper suitable to him.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think when Paul just kind of briefly references Adam was created first, it's not just arbitrary.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really helpful for God's people to understand that I think we could think, you know, just what our culture says is that men and women are identical in every way.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly we are equal fully in value and uh worth before God, both made in the image of God, and neither one is better or greater than the other, but we're different.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Paul is going back to Genesis to refer to how God created us differently with those roles created.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can subtly, if we don't root and ground it in creation order, we could think that God's commands for women not to be pastors, we could think of them as arbitrary, right?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: That if if men and women are identical in every way, then it's just an arbitrary command.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to submit to something that is just arbitrary.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make any sense.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's no goodness in it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what you were saying is that God's ways are good.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that he created men and women as different is good.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: He has a plan for it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so Paul is really referencing all of that as for the reason why the church should function as it should.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And really, this is just so counterintuitive to the flesh, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's why we need the word of God.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I I I know this is a little bit off topic, but bear with me.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think for my wife and I, when we, and it's a different context, so it's not this text, but the idea of just even how we relate uh in our home.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: When I am a passive leader, it frustrates the whole household, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or when my wife wants to dominate over my leadership, it frustrates the household.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: God's taught us through his word, and over a few decades of marriage now, that when we actually, when I'm a Christ-like leader in the home, right, who loves and cherishes and values my wife like Christ does the church, and then she embraces her role, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, revealed in scripture, creation order as a helper suitable for her husband, um, we both flourish.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it we didn't get there in the flesh.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like we got there through the word of God.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we got to keep working it out by faith, or it goes off the rails.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's really not that different when it comes to like this passage in the church, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about gifting or ability, even or value in Christ.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's really like God has given roles for how his house, his church should operate, um, rooted in creation, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when it's done right biblically, it causes flourishing both for God's people and then for the gospel.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: In the world, which again sounds crazy.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because in our minds, we're like, yeah, that doesn't work.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna feel like the subjugation of women or some form of oppression, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: But not when it's done according to God's word.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Which is again why God's word is just we've gotta be our minds had to be renewed by the word, right?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or else we're gonna come with our own ideas of how to run God's house.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um Josh, could you talk to us a little bit?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we have this Adam's form first, then Eve, which roots it in creation, but then we have this statement about Adam not being deceived and women being deceived and becoming a transgressor.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: How does that impact how we understand this text?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So once again, verse 11, sorry, verse 12 goes back to Genesis 2.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then verse 13, uh verse 14 goes back to Genesis 3.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he's taking us back to creation once again.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And although I think this text is, this verse is a little bit controversial once again.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Paul is saying here that there's something about the way that God created men and women that's different, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, this is irrelevant, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we don't, he's not just referencing something that happened thousands of years prior.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying the fact that Eve was deceived and Adam was not deceived, and he uses uh an emphatic different word there, he's saying that has relevance today for why men should lead in the church.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so without getting in, he's not unpacking all the details, but I think this once again points to the fact that men and women are different.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we could just generally say we can't spell this out exactly, but women are more compassionate, amen.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are sensitive, nurturing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and we can't, you know, we can't say, you know, make absolute statements about that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And praise God, the world's not just a bunch of men.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and those differences, Paul is saying, have ongoing relevance for how the church should function.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I was trying to say before is that if we just kind of erase all those differences, then this is arbitrary.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yet God has a design and it's good.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And men and women are different and beautifully suited for our different roles.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so Paul is saying the way that God set up the world is Relevant for how the church should function as a healthy family.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think even just your reference to husbands and wives, obviously, there's there's a parallelism and a uh fitness to how men and women function in the home and in the church.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, those are all rooted in how God created the world.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because the example of Adam and Eve and Eve being deceived, Adam not being deceived, it's it's almost an argument from the failure.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning Adam was with his wife, right, in Genesis 3, when she is being deceived by the serpent, when she eats of the fruit, he's with her, and he, in that sense, failed to lead her.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So Eve is deceived, meaning she believed the lie of the serpent.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Adam didn't, but he didn't lead his wife towards obedience to God's revealed will.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then he joins his wife in her sin.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an interesting argument, right?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: That, yeah, and again, highlighting the differences.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's I don't think we could conclude here that women are always more deceivable than men.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the text is going there.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is just saying, like, she was deceived.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Adam wasn't.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's a difference.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And in God's design, he should have led his wife to not being deceived.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then faithful leadership in God's house would do the same.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there's a lot more that we could dive into.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll get into more of the application of it in the next episode.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I I hope that just even walking through the text just helps carry the conscience of God's people, that we can see that these commands are not arbitrary.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're for our good, they're from the text.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and ultimately all of us have to humble ourselves and say, okay, God, what do you what do you say is best?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: What do you say is healthy?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know that's really how churches are going to flourish.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is really, I mean, we again, verse 15 is very complex, but right, being saved through childbearing, she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh I'll uh let people blow up your email with you know complex questions on that one.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's interesting, right?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Still referencing back to Genesis 2 and 3 and God's good instruction, not all of it, but part of it included the bearing of children.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like almost going back to like God's good order revealed in scripture, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like Eve was deceived, went this way, but she should have just stayed faithful to the revealed word of God, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Which included childbearing, and really then these just evidences of walking with God, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Faith and love and holiness and self-control.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of going her own way, right, this is the humble life of walking by faith, right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now I know there's greater complexity there, but it's not, it's it's not less than that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like really that's what God's after for all of us is that we would just humbly submit to his word.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this is a challenge because we've all got experiences.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we've been burned by bad leaders.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our culture's saying this is implicit sexism.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our heart is just what is clearly revealed in the word of God?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: How do we understand it, and how do we work it out by faith?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for listening to this uh edition of Heart Religion, where our desire is just to help all people know, love, and follow Jesus better by faith.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like always, if you have questions, thoughts, comments, please message us, email us, DM us, reach out to the church office.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: We simply want to care better for God's people here at RBC and anywhere in the world where you might be listening.