Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E18 - prohibition & fun
Transcript
- Oliver Joseph: That in many corners of our life and many corners of the Jewish experience and the global experience, there are lots and lots of reasons to be very sad and depressed and to feel downtrodden and to feel like the world isn't for you as individuals, as people, as community. And there's something here about the struggle towards smiling, the struggle towards an experience of joy. Yair Eldan: So you have the Hasidim who actually puts pleasure as a central part of religious life. But I mean, all in all, I have to insist that for me, religion is, for and foremost, all about prohibitions, not about pleasure. Oliver Joseph: That in some way or another we are regularized and regulated to have joyful moments in our day to day and we can easily forget that if we're not careful to like bring those moments of gratitude and smiling and togetherness into our tradition into our day-to-day. welcome to Really Jewish. Welcome to our conversation about what it is to be really Jewish with Yahir El Dan and Oliver Joseph. I'm the religious one, apparently. Yaeir is the secular guy. I'm from the UK. He's from Israel. welcome back, Ya'eer. It is really great to be this. You know, we're doing this podcast about what it is to be really Jewish, and then we're meeting a little bit less together at the moment. But then I think when we come back, then we have a lot more to talk about because it's a pretty substantive topic, what it is to be really Jewish. And today, it's a Sunday, it's a fast day in the Jewish calendar. It's the 17th day of Tammuz, and we're talking about pleasure and prohibition. That has two pretty enormous topics in the Jewish tradition. So welcome back, welcome to our visitors. who are coming for the first time, Brukhima Ba'im, if you're listening for the first time, and welcome back if you're here for another lesson. And welcome to Yair Al Dan. Yair Eldan: Hey Oliver, it's good to be here. It's good to be back. Oliver Joseph: Okay, so you're Tell me a little bit about we've been running for a couple of months now the podcast, and it's one of the topics that we've put to the front to prioritise, talk about. Why is the aspect of pleasure and prohibition kind of featuring heavily in your version of what is really Jewish? and let's start with pleasure. Why is pleasure important in the Jewish tradition? Yair Eldan: First of all, I like that you actually separated pleasure from prohibitions because, you know, the Western culture and also, I think, Paul itself said that there is a deep dependency between pleasure and prohibitions and fun and prohibitions. But to your question, I will be happy to say something about it. think to your question, as a kid growing up in a religious home, I felt always that... There is something about religion that is opposing pleasure. mean, that pleasure could come in a very small, small dishes, small amounts, but the main thing is the prohibitions. The main thing is the difficulty. The main thing is the discipline, the confinement of... what you feel inside you. And I think something about this very basic, simple feeling as a kid, it became a very, very central aspect. of religion in my mind. It's not true. I mean, when you talk about Jewish culture and religion as a whole, that there is an opposition to pleasure. I mean, I can't see that. But if you're talking about my existential feeling, I grew up in a home that, and I think there are a lot of Jewish religious homes like that, that sees fun, that sees pleasure as a problem. And as a secular, I have a totally different view about the subject. And it took me years to actually enjoy life as it is. I have a feeling that you don't relate to what I said as a religious rabbi, but, and I'm really happy to hear you because I'm curious about it. Do you have a different, you know... it's a feeling. I'm talking about sense, a sense of fun and pleasure in your religious life. And I have a feeling that you have, you have a different view about it, but I think you can see, I mean, alongside the Jewish culture, history, that pleasure is part of life. You're supposed to be happy, literally. That's amazing when you think about it. Be happy in the festival, in your holidays. And you have to be happy and to have pleasure in wine and meat. I mean, and obviously you have the whole 18th century Hasidim who were opposed to all the, you know, the... vector of prohibitions and seeing religion as a kind of, as I sensed it as a kid. So you have the Hasidim who actually puts pleasure as a central part of religious life. But I mean, all in all, I have to insist that for me, religion is, for and foremost, all about prohibitions, not about pleasure. Oliver Joseph: Right. So it's interesting to kind of c carve our way through through that distinction. if we're talking about pleasure, the exactly as you said, we're commanded in the Torah, for example around Sukot to be Aksa Akh Sam to be to set to have a aspect of festival which is solely joyful or solely happy. And I I often think about when we describe the festivals that the festivals are just kind of agents or elements of the year, that it's on Sukkot that we learn what it is to truly celebrate. And then that aspect of Sukot is then translated somehow into the rest of the year. It's not that the festivals each individually that we mark moments in that one festival which are exclusive to that moment in the year, but rather we learn archetypes of human behaviour inside each of the festivals each year and then hopefully carry some of those architects and aspects into the rest of the year. So Sukhot is Ach Sam and Purim is this aspect of like wildness and frivolity as an another example of where you might find aspects of joy. I mean it's a real the mitzvah of One of the Minagim of Purim is that we won't know the difference between the Russia Haman and the good guy Mordechai, the wicked Haman and the good guy Mordechai. that's a real trunken state, but it's hi associated and connected with frivolity and joy. the I guess also to draw a line in the sand, exactly as you said, that there's something quite like mitnagdic. in the way that you describe your relationship with joy and prohibition because there is an aspect of this eighteenth century kind of hangover where these chasidim, these ecstatic Eastern European Jews who were reinventing what it meant to live a life of happiness and joy were significantly severely opposed by probably a good chunk of the other population, the other the remaining population in that part of Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Russia And so like one of the dividing lines, one of the lines of turf, one of the lines in the sand between those communities was how you experience joy. And I think what you describe I feel like is like some like leftover of that debate that in some parts of our Jewish community, specifically like the quality of being like dour and downtrodden and cheredi like trembling and almost you know verging in a negative context fills your life to such a great extent that the aspect of joy is significantly limited. And I find that sad. I find that sad because it feels somewhat out of balance but I don't think your experiences alone I think my experience of pleasure in the Jewish tradition is that there's lots of it. I didn't grow up in a house like that, partly because my house that I grew up in was somewhat not observant, so there wasn't that sense of awe inside the mitzvah. and I think particularly my late mum of Blessed Memory whose Yachtsite was a few weeks ago was last week. she really approached Judaism from a place of opting in. So as a place of positive kind of connection rather than any sense of shit, I have to do this. and that's joyful. So the Shabbat and Friday dinners with like you know, the full table of people as we often did in our family home growing up and the festivals and even changing over at Pesach kind of felt somewhat joyful, even though it was a lot of work and a big commitment to take on. I think joy is and in my life now I think there is something of of obligation to the mitzvah and how weighty that can feel and you know Today I slept for two hours 'cause one of our kids was up and up early and it's now a fast day. And that doesn't feel great. That feels somewhat oppressive. It's gonna be a hot day, gonna get on the train here to go to work. there are parts where prohibition comes in in strength, but we'll get to the prohibition in this conversation. I think the prohibition does have a role, but the aspect of happiness and of joy is at the front of what it means to celebrate. That in some way or another we are regularized and regulated to have joyful moments in our day to day and we can easily forget that if we're not careful to like bring those moments of gratitude and smiling and togetherness into our tradition into our day-to-day. what's your thought? What's joyful in your life, Yaeer, and how does that work in a kind of secular context in terms of making sure those moments happen and making sure that pleasure is solidly part of your life, even if you're not keeping the mitzvah in the traditional way? Yair Eldan: I think the main word that you used actually in what you said now is balance. And I think there is something about religious life that is not... Balanced in a way there is something about religious life that is the equilibrium between fun and prohibitions Fun and discipline is being in a way like Damaged I Think when I think about my pleasures in life and there are a lot As a secular, I understand today, I in my age, that before I knock myself out, you know... I'm going to drink with friends. I understand already as a secular that I'm going to pay a price tomorrow. And I have to actually make sure that the price is not being, I'm not going to harm myself or my loved ones. I have always this, I have to make an account of of what I'm doing because I'm into all sorts of calculations. And in a very, I think, paradoxical way, Oliver, I think that makes me feel pure pleasure. After I do the calculations and I understand that I'm going to enjoy a very beautiful art. you know painting or I'm going to read a wonderful story by Philip Roth but I'm reading now American Pastoralia by Philip Roth. It's a beautiful, beautiful book and I enjoy it a lot and also just enjoy, you know, sex, enjoy just to touch another person. Because of the calculations, because I have to make sure that the pleasure is not going to harm myself or others, I actually can sense pure pleasure. And what I feel, and that's what I told you about the festivals, and you actually said something else. You said something that is very, it's beautiful, but I don't think I disagree. You said that... The joy in festivals, the command to be happy in the festival is actually an archetype. It shows you how to be happy in your life, everyday life. I disagree. think religion is kind of, you know, it takes from your hands the calculations that I actually spoke about and the religion gives you outlets during the year. You're right, pooling is the outlet because you can do everything and actually that is the archetype in my view of what religion actually relates how religion relates to fun and pleasure because you know when prohibitions control your life your everyday life you have to let go couple of times a year and when you let go you actually you don't care about your loved ones or to harm yourself it's an outburst of something about it that's what's so amazing about my age something about this outlet I mean because you didn't actually you're not there The pleasure is not pure. In Hebrew, there's an idiom, I love it. To be is pure pleasure. It's clear, pure. How do you say, distilled in a way. There is something about it that is very, very powerful. Oliver Joseph: But I actually disagree on these terms because if we take Sukkot and Purim as two of the paradigms that we're describing, Sukkot feels more in relationship. Sukkot is about sukkah, about temporary dwelling. Sukkot is about the Arba Minim, the unity of different parts of the self. it's about feasting, it's about celebration of the harvest. It feels much more in relationship with the world. And so it is a calculated joy. Whereas the aspect of purim I think is actually more dangerous. and we were actually talking about this in a little bit of the preparation backwards and forwards. Purim is the aspect of jumping off a bridge. I mean God forbid, but it's the aspect of I've been repressed for all of this time and now suddenly I'm gonna let go. I'm gonna get so hammered, I'm gonna get so drunk and I don't even know my own name. that's the modern day of given. the idea that we should not know the difference between how ma the wicked guy and the good guy is I'm gonna get drunk till I don't know my own name. And it that's not in relationship. It might be that it's important in the tradition, in the different festivals of the year of which we have a many, that you need to have a purim where that kind of letting go is permitted. Because we need that letting go. I can think of lots of moments in my year where I need moments letting go when I go for a run. Like that is that's my small way of just letting go. I've often have no phone. If I've my phone's with me, it's off. I don't listen to anything, I don't talk to anybody. That's my letting go. That's my jumping out of reality into something else. But it there's also a danger there of of needing happiness or that kind of joy that joyful release to such extreme tones. so Cott feels more imbalance. And I think I'm more in favour of the The Ach Samer, the the Simcha or the pleasure of sukkot, which is also in relationship with the world that we live in, versus the Purim, which feels like more of an out of body experience, which listen, we have both. We have lots of people who, you know, for example, use drugs quite regularly and and really have a regular out of body experience in that respect. And may You could make the argument that kind of escapism is really important for the human soul. But as a rabbi, as a spiritual leader, I feel like the related and relatable regular pleasure on Ek Shabbat of like being with family and friends and creating community on Shabbat and experiencing pleasure is a more healthy way of doing it than like the extremist version, which is to at head for the hills. what's your take on that? Yair Eldan: Obviously, I think there's something about Jewish life, Jewish religion, as all religions, that, you know, it tries to give you a good way of living. balanced living of a healthy living and obviously in Shabbat you can see it there is a pleasure of that you all sit together on Shabbat and it's there in the biblical text itself. it's just there And obviously that the prohibitions are there as well I mean there is something in a way when I read the Bible there is something more balanced in the religion at its origins In the origin there is something more balanced. As you go forward I feel that the prohibitions became more prominent and as a result, that's what I said, there is kind of an addiction to pleasure with religious people. I mean, because they don't have the responsibility of doing this equilibrium, doing this calculation themselves. They actually when you look at a lot of about religious life in Israel I can actually say I look at religious people and to my disappointment I can see that there is something Addictive about their the way they live and it's actually counterintuitive They're supposed to be religious. So they're supposed to be more balanced but when you look at how they treat food eating and how they walk in the world, I feel that there's something not healthy about the way they live their lives. And I think the basic balance between pleasure and discipline and prohibition is one of the, you know, the basic, basic learnings, something that a person, a grown up person should actually... You know, learn about himself. But I remember, you know, as a religious young person, Oliver, I came to Haifa, I remember. And first time in my life, I was after the army. The army is something else. It's kind of a microcosmos. But I learned to actually live with secular people. I was still religious and to my astonishment I saw that there is something about them that is more even conservative from my religious... counterparts they actually lived their lives in a very, the balance between prohibition and fun, actually the scale was more towards prohibitions with the secular. I was amazed and I asked myself, how could that be? Oliver Joseph: I'm interested. What's an example? Yair Eldan: I mean they were not so keen to go out at night, you know, if there is studies tomorrow, you know, they have their limits while the religious guys, you know, they party like there's no tomorrow. So that's interesting when you think about it. And I think, I mean, I'm not for that. I think that's also not balanced. But when the responsibility... is from in you, it's on you. I think there's something else and when the responsibility is not on you, there's something that disconnects you from life, from the world. I can see it in Israel today, I can see it all around me with religious people, something that is, you know, they don't have to take responsibility about... about this balance and so everything that is actually allowed you should do. mean because it's allowed, it's not prohibited. Oliver Joseph: Right. but it's interesting 'cause what we're getting to is that the prohibition and pleasure aspect that's inside the Jewish tradition is in many ways a reflection of who we are as human beings. of a human temptation, of a human stance, of what it is to live. so in many ways we balance you know, in the secular or in the religious context what we are doing is balancing core parts of ourselves. Yair Eldan: Sorry. Sorry. Oliver Joseph: I wanted to get onto the text that we spoke about. It's Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlav, who was also you know, a chasid and from the eighteenth century and one of our more popular popularised teachers of this spiritualist Hasidic tradition. and very famously he says mitzvah gudalali ad basimcha tamid it's a great mitzvah to always be in happiness or in joy. for this is the important part, the less quoted part, the second clause and the continuation of the teaching. That way to be happy always and make every effort to in this translation to determinedly keep depression and gloom at bay. the reason why It's interesting to have a teaching. In all of the we said about how Judaism is a tendency to be Tao and a tendency to encourage solemnity and seriousness. It's interesting to have an aspect of the tradition which so wholeheartedly calls towards joy and pleasure and this is An example of that is not a soul teaching, it's a key teaching that people often allude to. but in this tradition, one of the parts is ecstatic experience and to drink and be joyful, particularly around Shabbat festivals, to a certain point where you know take off and find yourself at one with God and at one with your spiritual sense and your spiritual self. but there's another part here, which is kind of alm the second part of the teaching, which is I think it's pretty well known of Rabin Ahmad that he was struggled with his own mental health. And there's something here about what it means mitzvah Liot Basim Khatamid to be always happy, I think in some way or another, is a description of the personal struggle. That in many corners of our life and many corners of the Jewish experience and the global experience, there are lots and lots of reasons to be very sad and depressed and to feel downtrodden and to feel like the world isn't for you as individuals, as people, as community. And there's something here about the struggle towards smiling, the struggle towards an experience of joy. this constant strife which it is to remain on even keel. And that bit I'm really interested in as a rabbi and as a religious experience and as that, you know, constant striving towards balance. what's your take on the Kutaimoran, the Rabbi Nachman teaching? Yair Eldan: Listen, I mean, you're so right to deal with depression and anxieties. I mean, in Israel, in the last three years, it's a lot of people around me, me myself, I had a... long time I wasn't depressed but I was down for months. A lot of people around me have anxieties, you know people are taking medication to treat and therapy to treat it and And I'm saying that because there is something about what Rab Nachman said, you know, the two parts of a sentence that are actually contradicting. I mean, they can't live together. The command or the religious demand to be in simcha. And the... You know, saying that you should have an optimistic feeling not to dwell into your sadness. I think they're too contradicting. Why? Because what I said before, because there is something... How do you deal with anxieties and depression? You have to actually, it's a very, very long, difficult process. There are no shortcuts here, no shortcuts. You have to speak about your difficulties. It's not enough to have an optimistic way because it's just a cover up of what's going on inside you. You have to make a big effort and people who do that, and I can see it in my work. People who actually commit themselves to this, they go back to life. People who are just covered up with... Actually, that's how I see the Rab Nachman, the people in Israel, the Breslavim. Oliver, they have this car, this van, you know, and they stop in the street and they start dancing. And I always feel they're so sad. I can see them. They're sad. They're outcast of society. They have a lot of, you see, a lot of suffering inside them. And I feel sorry for them. So there is something about it that It's not connected to what it means to be really human, if I can take what you said before, because it's universal, you know. tension between prohibition and fun. there is something about the way religion treats depression and anxieties, I think. That is not... I don't see it in the biblical text, but I can actually see it in the more rabbinical... There is something... They mean well, I think, but... Oliver Joseph: Right. Yair Eldan: Result is not with connection with human needs. Oliver Joseph: what you're describing there is interesting because it's something about the essentialism, the essential nature of what it is to the description of the Rabbi Nachman teaching is about holding balance. and To be in relationship with both. He goes on to talk about like happiness as a cure for ill health. And there's something there about like somewhere in us is always this possibility for sadness and for deep malaise in some way or another, like a darkness. and the aspect of grasping towards joy is really important because that is in part the cure. Like it will never there will never be a moment in our lives. in many people's lives, let's say, let's not don't have to universalise everything. There for a lot of people in this world, there will always be reasons to be sad. The loss of a loved one, the your debt, your addictions, your you know, you name it. We're between us we have a hundred. But the the possibility is also Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: to reach for that place of joy and to strive towards that. I often think of it's a slightly different archetype, but the image of Joseph in the caves of of Egypt, of the dungeons of Egypt and Ketsium in Pashat Miketsa in the middle of Hanukkah we talk about Joseph waiting for two years to get out and think it might also be Rabbi Nachman says that we have to have Ma Bat le ola ma'ba like there's something about like that spiritual gaze which also comes from this which also comes from the Kabbalistic and Hasidic tradition where we're constantly like with an eye on that human need, on the possibility of some kind of spiritual redemption. That doesn't mean that we don't come from prison, we don't come from a dark place, but the resilience is that gaze towards what's possible. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the prohibition. Does the prohibition have any role? This is the bit that you least like to talk about, but like you know, I my appreciation of your Jewish life is that you've Yair Eldan: think it's a wonderful example, yeah. There we go. Listen. Oliver Joseph: perhaps it's a too simplistic version, but you shed some of the tough stuff, the prohibition parts, and you get to enjoy some of the good bits. Maybe that's an oversimplification of your experience of Jewish life. But tell me about the your understanding of prohibition in your own life and in what's really Jewish. Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Listen, I understand what you said about Rab Nachman, I like his Seifa. The end of his saying is actually wonderful. I don't like the mitzvah G-dol, that there is a command to be in simcha. think it's superficial. And I think it's not surprising that religion connects in a very deep way between prohibition and pleasure. You know, it's not surprising that Paul says, as I said, in letters to the Romans, he said... that for a part from the law, sin is dead. I mean, there is a connection because for Paul, actually, the sin comes out of the law. It comes out of the prohibition. The pleasure is actually dependent on the fact that there is a prohibition. And actually, Freud also said this. I mean, that there is something about the prohibition that actually produces the... sin or produces the pleasure. But in my secular life, it's not like that. It's not like that for me. As I said, it's more like an equilibrium. It's not that they're producing each other. They have to be in a connection with each other. They have to they have life of their own. I mean, prohibitions for me are not prohibitions in a way. I don't feel them as prohibitions. I feel them as You know, treating other human beings as I treat myself. mean, you know, the categorical, Kantian saying that you should do everything and treat the other person as you treat yourself. Your interests are not better than the interests of others. And I think I don't feel that it prohibits me. I have to be with reciprocity with other people. I have to connect with them in a way that not harms them. So there's no dependency in my... consciousness between pleasures and prohibitions. There's a kind of flowing, there's kind of understanding that I have to be in the world, I can actually enjoy myself, but I have to make sure that I don't harm myself or others. I the metaphor is more fluid, I think. Oliver Joseph: Hm. Right. No, I dunno. I think it's actually very complicated. you know, on one level the prohibition is God ordained. Like I do relate that to that part of the tradition that there's something divine about this body of commandments, but you know, I came the uniqueness, but it's not unique. the distinction of my journey is that came to religion from probably quite a tough place. You know, My mum had just passed away and I and I came towards this tradition, you know, like a train hurtling towards the hurtling towards the station. it was something it's a dramatic image, but like I came towards it, I guess from a place of need. But, you know, it's been, you know, more than twenty years on that journey, as a religious person. And, you know, when I have this conversation with you, I have like kind of pangs of You know, is this the right this is an interesting take that your has about, you know, the role of prohibition. Is this what I want from my for me and for my family? As somebody you know, looking opposite me as somebody who grew up in this tradition. I wonder in my own life about what the choices are I make and the significance of them, but the aspect of prohibition also guides and aspects of prohibition also gives structure to my life which I enjoy. I enjoy the parameters, the clear parameters of the way that I live and the the ebb and flow. So it's hard to frame I don't want to live a life where I'm terrified of the repercussions of not doing stuff. I don't think that's a healthy way to live, and I think it has to be a balance between the two. But I also want to wave the flag in a world where in many parts of the secular world anything goes, that there is a role to being guided. on this journey by ways of law and restriction. Yair Eldan: I mean, there is a very common view on secular world, that it's a world with no limitations. And obviously there is part of the secular world that is true, know, kind of hedonism, nihilism, that, you know. Controls this the secular world. That's not my existential being in the world I always have to make sure that I balance and but I think you're right there is kind of a part of the secular world that won't be damaged if they would take on themselves a few prohibitions from the religious world. Oliver Joseph: Right. Listen, it's an interesting conversation which will carry on between us because it's really at the core of some of this divide between secular and religious. just interesting to zoom out and a part of the the interesting part is how we emotionally relate to what it is to live both of us in many ways inside this tradition, but in inside this tradition in in different ways. we're it's early morning here on the fast day of Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: 17th of Tamuz. we're gonna wrap up here as kids are wake up in our house. thanks for listening to Really Jewish. We hope you got something from being here. thank you to Oivavoy for our musical intro and outro. Listen to their single Back to My Roots on streaming platforms. We are really happy to be here. like our posts and share this podcast wherever you listen to. your podcast and if you interested in supporting this project click on Patreon and donate monthly to support Really Jewish with Yahir Al Dan and Oliver Joseph look forward to having you back next week. Thank you. Thanks Yair. Yair Eldan: Thank