Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 57. Bonus Chat with Epic Fantasy Author, Katie Fitzgerald

Transcript

57. Bonus Chat with Epic Fantasy Author, Katie Fitzgerald · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:06
  Welcome to Show, don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction nonfiction that are gonna wow your readers broken down step by step.
• 0:18
  We're gonna explore writing techniques.
• 0:21
  I'm gonna show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers' careers that you wouldn't have access to otherwise.
• 0:27
  And I'm also gonna coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling.
• 0:33
  Whether you're just starting out, you're drafting your first book, you're editing, or you're currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your 10th book, this show's gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn't even know you needed, but you definitely do.
• 0:48
  I'm so looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams, and you're gonna also have some fun doing it.
• 1:02
  Let's dive in.
• 1:06
  Last week on the Show Don't Tell podcast.
• 1:08
  We did a page review with Katie Fitzgerald, and it was amazing.
• 1:13
  And I just love doing these.
• 1:15
  Check it out.
• 1:15
  We'll link to it in the show notes.
• 1:17
  But our conversation actually ran long and turned into a bonus episode for you where Katie and I talked about all kinds of things about piecing her novel together and technique.
• 1:29
  I just think that you're gonna love, love, love listening to it.
• 1:32
  So again, I've got Katie on the podcast and she has pursued art her entire life.
• 1:38
  Starting at the precocious age of 13, she finished her first novel, which remains unpublished in her twenties, which she calls the progenitor of the Ceridian series, but has been lost to the decay of digital media.
• 1:50
  She swears that there's still a printout somewhere in her garage, so the need for an income entailed a 20 year career in technical writing in Silicon Valley, a career in decorative and fine art.
• 2:01
  And finally, back to her first love, now fiction writing, primarily fantasy.
• 2:06
  Her goal is to entertain you and hopefully leave you feeling happier than when you started the story.
• 2:11
  Katie lives in the Santa Cruz mountains of California with her husband, two kids, and the world's happiest dog.
• 2:19
  I have a couple of quickfire questions for you if you're up for it.
• 2:23
  Sure.
• 2:24
  So I wanna ask you, how long did it take you to write the first book that you wrote?
• 2:28
  The first fir book I The novella, or the first book?
• 2:31
  Or if you wrote another book before, how up?
• 2:35
  The first book took 20 years.
• 2:37
  Yeah.
• 2:37
  Where is that book now?
• 2:39
  That's book one in a series.
• 2:41
  Okay.
• 2:41
  Um, yeah, family happened in the middle of that, and I thought as a new mother, oh, I can write when the baby sleeps and then nobody tells you the baby might not ever sleep.
• 2:52
  I had babies who slept, and I'm ashamed to say I did write my first book on maternity leave with my third child because they all mapped at the same.
• 3:01
  No, I don't.
• 3:02
  But I'm not saying that everybody can do that.
• 3:04
  I'm not saying that that was everybody's experience and I didn't finish it.
• 3:07
  How did you need to share that magic with other, I didn't fi, I didn't finish it.
• 3:12
  I did go back to work and it was about four and a half years before that first book was published.
• 3:15
  But yeah, that was my plan.
• 3:16
  So thank you to my babies for sleeping.
• 3:18
  My oldest is 19 now.
• 3:20
  Okay, so once I picked it back up, it took about a year to finish the first draft.
• 3:25
  I write fairly polished first drafts, and then second and third draft went pretty quick.
• 3:30
  Awesome.
• 3:31
  So I'd say maybe a year and a half.
• 3:33
  Yeah.
• 3:33
  Awesome.
• 3:35
  Which is pretty typical, the 20 years.
• 3:37
  The nice thing about it is when I just asked you what that room looked like, it was right there.
• 3:43
  And that's because you've been holding this world in your head for 20 years, and so you could have written the book in a year or six months, or three months, you wouldn't have been able to answer that question.
• 3:54
  You wouldn't have been able to tell me that maybe on the opening scene, but for lots of things I could tell the depth you've been carrying that around.
• 3:59
  So even if you weren't actively working on it, your world is going to be richer because it sat in the back of your mind for 20 years while you raised your children.
• 4:08
  So don't, it all happens for a reason.
• 4:10
  It all happens the way it's going to happen.
• 4:12
  Okay.
• 4:13
  What was the moment where I often ask it in a different way.
• 4:17
  I sometimes say, what was your first big break?
• 4:19
  So what was the moment where you knew this was really gonna happen?
• 4:22
  That you were gonna, you were gonna finish this book and get it out?
• 4:25
  And what was that moment like?
• 4:28
  After I finished the book and it went through beta readers and all of that process.
• 4:33
  I gave myself a year to find an agent and go.
• 4:36
  Traditional publishing, as your listeners may have figured out from the discussion of kids, it's adult kids.
• 4:41
  I'm older, I'm gonna be 60 this year, and so I gave myself a year because I don't have time to fart around.
• 4:48
  I want it done.
• 4:50
  So after knowing, most of us want it done regardless of when.
• 4:54
  Yes, yes.
• 4:55
  That, that is true.
• 4:56
  I just turned 50 this summer, so I feel you.
• 4:59
  Yeah.
• 4:59
  But as soon as I hit that year without a lot of traction, I, okay, I'm gonna go start researching being an indie opera because yeah.
• 5:07
  People do that and are successful these days.
• 5:11
  Absolutely, especially in fancy.
• 5:12
  There's huge.
• 5:13
  The neat thing about being an independent author today is that there's whole groups that are just waiting for your book, and if you can get into those groups and those reader groups, then you're golden, right?
• 5:24
  There's book talk on TikTok and things that you don't need to be there.
• 5:28
  Like I, you are like, ah, I don't wanna do all that stuff.
• 5:31
  I don't know if you're on TikTok or not.
• 5:32
  But there are groups that will pick it up, right?
• 5:35
  And so there's different ways to get into that.
• 5:37
  And if you can get noticed, it doesn't matter how you publish, in fact, independently, you have options.
• 5:43
  You have these options whether you go independent or traditional, but there's KDP, and there's other places where you can actually allow people to experience your books, especially when you have a series.
• 5:54
  So maybe you allow the prequel to be in.
• 5:57
  Available for cheaper or for whatever, or in the subscription.
• 6:01
  Then it will lead people, like I was talking about at the beginning of the show.
• 6:04
  And you've actually got two entry points so you can keep playing with those entry points, the prequel and book one as you write the series and figure out where that traction is.
• 6:14
  Because once people read it is they love it, they're gonna keep going.
• 6:17
  Epic fantasy readers are.
• 6:19
  An amazing crew.
• 6:21
  Thank you to all those listeners out there who read and because they will keep reading, right?
• 6:26
  They want to be immersed in a series and they will read it quickly and just consume it and they will talk about it to their friends.
• 6:33
  So yeah, so it's finding those pathways.
• 6:35
  So congratulations, it sounds like you, you got it right.
• 6:38
  And thank you.
• 6:39
  And the whole, yeah, and the whole querying bits.
• 6:42
  Like a year to find an agent.
• 6:44
  I think that's reasonable.
• 6:46
  I work with a lot of different writers in the year.
• 6:48
  I work on about a hundred books, and what I find is I can tell writers if their book is ready for an agent, I can tell and I can tell you when you're ready to go, the, when the book is ready, and whether you independently.
• 7:01
  Publish or traditionally publish, you just have to get your book as far as you can, right?
• 7:05
  You have to get your book to level.
• 7:07
  At the end of the day, I can never predict which ones are going to sell and which ones aren't, because it's trends and it's trust and it's all the things, right?
• 7:15
  You can't force that.
• 7:16
  So your book might be perfect and amazing and have a readership, and yet.
• 7:23
  Nobody in the traditional space is looking for that particular thing in a particular moment.
• 7:27
  So it's just so they kind of work in parallel those two streams.
• 7:30
  So I'm glad that you didn't wait too long and that you're willing to get it out there.
• 7:34
  It's awesome.
• 7:34
  20 years, 20, right?
• 7:36
  Congratulations.
• 7:37
  Last quick question.
• 7:39
  What's your best advice for writers who are listening today who wanna independently publish?
• 7:46
  What's the best thing that you wanna tell them that you wish that you'd know when you started this journey?
• 7:52
  There are groups out there who have already figured out a lot of the steps to become an independent, published author and title market and so Right.
• 8:04
  But I have researched each individual piece of information on my own.
• 8:08
  Sure.
• 8:08
  And I did for a while until I found a group that clicked with.
• 8:13
  So now I'm working with them and they teach me how to do a release, how to do front matter, how to do backwater, how to do keywords, all that lovely stuff that we hate.
• 8:25
  Yeah.
• 8:25
  All that scary stuff.
• 8:26
  That sounds scary until you're like, oh, it's just that now.
• 8:29
  Yeah, and the thing is, whether you publish independently or however you publish.
• 8:34
  We're so focused on the writing for 20 years, right?
• 8:37
  And then all of a sudden there's all these other pieces to becoming an author, whether independently, especially because you have to learn all of those things.
• 8:46
  But even traditionally published, you still have to pay attention to all of those things and help them.
• 8:51
  They don't do everything for you, right?
• 8:53
  Like even the keywords.
• 8:54
  I know lots of.
• 8:56
  Traditionally published authors who pay attention to that and help their publishers with it, they'd be like, Hey, this is missing and I'm seeing this trend, or whatever.
• 9:03
  Right?
• 9:04
  Like, how do people find your books is such a big part of it.
• 9:07
  Okay, great advice.
• 9:08
  We don't have to go it alone.
• 9:09
  That's what we're all about at the podcast.
• 9:12
  Is, yeah, you don't have to write a loan, you don't have to publish a loan.
• 9:16
  There are smart people out there and at the end of the day who really have started this journey because you want to have a conversation with the world and you want people to read it.
• 9:26
  Whether we tell ourselves that's scary or whether we hope, we probably all secretly hope that people are gonna find our books.
• 9:32
  I love them.
• 9:33
  So yeah, so reach out.
• 9:34
  Don't be afraid to ask all of those questions.
• 9:36
  Great advice.
• 9:38
  Can I ask you a question?
• 9:40
  Absolutely.
• 9:41
  So one thing I struggle with in terms of show don't tell is yeah, the idea has been around for a long time and you've obviously done a lot of work in the area.
• 9:52
  I'm now afraid to name emotions, right?
• 9:55
  Rather than showing how it's affecting my characters in their body or in the responses.
• 10:01
  And sometimes you just need to get on with it.
• 10:05
  So yeah, I wanna balance that.
• 10:07
  Yeah, I get it.
• 10:08
  And this is, I come across this a lot.
• 10:11
  And when I've worked with a writer for a long time, I start telling them, you're showing too much.
• 10:15
  It can happen.
• 10:16
  You can show too much.
• 10:18
  And then they've like graduated into some other realm.
• 10:20
  Now most writers don't have that problem, um, that they show too much and they think that they are showing too much, too early.
• 10:27
  But we can see even from this page, we're not showing, we're not showing too much yet.
• 10:32
  So when you get there, it's a good problem to have.
• 10:35
  You're right.
• 10:35
  Naming emotions is one of the like most.
• 10:39
  It's the first thing that we learn about show no tell.
• 10:41
  It's not the only thing.
• 10:42
  I talk about seven different areas.
• 10:44
  Um, but naming emotions is one of them and I highly recommend the emotions.
• 10:49
  Thesaurus, if you haven't already.
• 10:51
  Got it.
• 10:51
  It's a big help.
• 10:52
  Um, that's how I found you.
• 10:54
  That's right.
• 10:54
  Through writers, helping writers.
• 10:55
  Exactly.
• 10:56
  So they, it, so Angela and Buckeye have done a ton of work on this one aspect of show hotel.
• 11:03
  I think eventually it starts to feel like when you're looking it up and you're like, I've already used that.
• 11:08
  I've already used that.
• 11:09
  I've already, it's, it's really just the, it's the jumping off point, so feel free to go in different directions.
• 11:16
  It's the inspiration, right.
• 11:17
  The most valuable thing that I find from that resource, which I do use, is that.
• 11:23
  Sometimes I will write angry and then I look it up and I realize none of the 10 pages that they got on angry feel anything like it.
• 11:31
  And I realized I was being lazy, right?
• 11:33
  I was being lazy.
• 11:34
  I thought it was angry and I named it.
• 11:35
  And when I actually dug in, it was surprised or something else, right?
• 11:38
  It wasn't angry.
• 11:40
  And so pay attention to those things.
• 11:42
  Can you name emotions?
• 11:44
  You can.
• 11:45
  The difference in your reader's brain is amazing.
• 11:48
  So what it actually works is.
• 11:50
  If we are giving people information or telling them stuff, then it's like they have their hands out and the readers can't see me, but you can see it and they have their hands out and we're giving them a fact.
• 12:01
  So we say, okay.
• 12:01
  She was angry.
• 12:03
  Wait, she was angry, and then your brain goes, check.
• 12:06
  She was angry, but it doesn't really do anything with it.
• 12:08
  It just holds it as a fact.
• 12:10
  If I say her full body shook when tears rolled down her face and her fist for clench, I don't know, maybe that's over the top.
• 12:18
  Depends where it is in the book.
• 12:20
  If we have all of those reactions, then my brain, number one, two things happen in my brain, my reader's brain.
• 12:27
  The first thing is they feel that, right?
• 12:30
  It happens for them.
• 12:32
  They feel anger, which is kind of really awesome thing.
• 12:35
  The second thing that happens is their brain has to line.
• 12:40
  Translate all of those things.
• 12:41
  So rather than just taking that fact, give a fact, give a fact, give a fact.
• 12:45
  It's like writing, reading a textbook, right?
• 12:46
  People get tired, eventually they drop all the facts 'cause they don't make sense, right?
• 12:51
  So what it does instead is it actually will light up their brains and they take that in clench fist, shaking tears, anger.
• 13:00
  They have to take that extra step.
• 13:02
  It keeps them awake while they read.
• 13:03
  It keeps them immersed and engaged.
• 13:05
  So that's why we do it.
• 13:07
  So sometimes when we're like, oh, I feel like I'm over showing.
• 13:11
  I don't know why I am doing it, because there's this stupid rule that says I can't name emotions, right?
• 13:16
  Um, I'm afraid to do it.
• 13:17
  So if you understand how it works in your reader's brain when you're deciding where to do it and where not to do it, decide how important it is that your reader is engaged, right?
• 13:28
  So in moments where it doesn't matter, right?
• 13:32
  You might name a quick emotion, exactly what you just said, get on with it.
• 13:36
  But in the climax of your book.
• 13:40
  Draw us down that path, man, bring me into their body.
• 13:43
  Make me feel the anger, because if you don't, you're missing it.
• 13:47
  Does that make sense?
• 13:48
  It does, yeah.
• 13:50
  And there are times when clenched fists shaking in tears might not be enough because I might think that's fear or something else that they might have to see.
• 14:01
  Frans fish or hands clenched in anger.
• 14:04
  I might name it and show it at the same time.
• 14:07
  So pay attention to that.
• 14:08
  'cause sometimes we're doing that so you could give us a little show and also need it because otherwise it doesn't make sense.
• 14:14
  So you might combine them, but just saying angry is it's not gonna invoke what you think it will in the reader.
• 14:22
  Did that answer your question?
• 14:24
  Yes.
• 14:25
  Yes.
• 14:26
  So don't be afraid.
• 14:27
  You can, but just know that it is, it's not a lazy version, but it's a part.
• 14:32
  There are definitely parts that you could tell in a book, um, and especially when you just wanna get on with it, like you said.
• 14:38
  And if you're feeling like you just get on with it, maybe, maybe you cut it.
• 14:41
  If, if it's something that you're trying to glaze over or get past, um, I'm more thinking about action scenes where you don't want it dragging down what's happening.
• 14:53
  Yeah.
• 14:53
  So think about what we worked on this page and see if you can do it without a ton.
• 14:59
  Right.
• 14:59
  Like even saying her body shook instead of she was angry is the same amount of words.
• 15:05
  Right.
• 15:06
  And it doesn't bog us down.
• 15:07
  Yeah.
• 15:07
  Or her body shook in.
• 15:08
  Anger is stronger than she was angry.
• 15:11
  So give us something.
• 15:13
  Would be my advice.
• 15:14
  Compact.
• 15:15
  Yeah, compact it.
• 15:17
  Exactly.
• 15:17
  And I like to think about it as.
• 15:20
  Being judicial with your words or being, making sure that every single thing that you include, number one, points the reader in the same direction and has a purpose.
• 15:28
  But number two, just does double, triple, quadruple the work so that it's those connections and all of that sort of cohesion that makes a book pop and feel amazing to a reader.
• 15:41
  Great advice.
• 15:42
  Thank you so much.
• 15:44
  You're so welcome.
• 15:44
  This has been super fun.
• 15:46
  I wish you all the luck.
• 15:47
  Please, please, please keep us informed.
• 15:50
  Come back on the podcast in September when your book is out and we will talk about that then.
• 15:55
  So if people are interested in the free call, they can download it for free on my website and that's katie fitzgerald author.com.
• 16:05
  Sid, we will put on all the links in the show notes.
• 16:07
  Thanks for coming on the show today, tuned.
• 16:09
  Fabulous.
• 16:09
  Thanks so much, Susie.
• 16:10
  I All right, bye.
• 16:19
  Thanks for tuning in to show.
• 16:20
  No.
• 16:20
  Tell Writing with me, Susie Vadori.
• 16:23
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• 16:27
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• 16:35
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• 16:49
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• 16:59
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• 17:11
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• 17:14
  See you again next week.