Latest / Destination Unlimited with Victor Fuhrman / Mark Nepo – The Power of Friendship

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Mark Nepo – The Power of Friendship · Destination Unlimited with Victor Fuhrman

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Speaker 1: My name is Victor Furman. Some call me the Voice.
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Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated with human nature, spirituality, science and
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Speaker 1: the crossroads at which they meet. Join me now and
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Speaker 1: we will explore these topics and so much more with
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Speaker 1: fascinating guests, authors and experts who will guide us to
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Speaker 1: Destination Unlimited. Carol King's nineteen seventy one Grammy Award winning
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Speaker 1: album of the Year, Tapestry, featured the heartwarming song You've
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Speaker 1: Got a Friend? What are the secrets to true friendship?
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Speaker 1: And may we find power in friendship? I'm honored to
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Speaker 1: have as my guests this week on Destination Unlimited. Best
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Speaker 1: selling author Mark Nepo with more than a million copies sold,
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Speaker 1: Mark Nepo has moved and inspired hired readers and seekers
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Speaker 1: all over the world with his number one New York
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Speaker 1: Times bestseller, The Book of Awakening Be loved. As a poet, teacher,
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Speaker 1: and storyteller, Mark has been called one of the finest
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Speaker 1: spiritual guides of our time, a consummate storyteller, and an
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Speaker 1: eloquent spiritual teacher. His website is Marknepo dot com, and
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Speaker 1: he joins me this week to share his amazing path
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Speaker 1: and new book you don't have to do it alone
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Speaker 1: the power of friendship. Please join me in welcoming to
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Speaker 1: Destination Unlimited, Mark Nepa. Welcome, Mark.
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Speaker 2: Oh, it's wonderful to be with you. Thanks for having me.
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Speaker 1: And thank you so much for joining us today. You know,
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Speaker 1: it turns out, Mark, that we're a couple of young
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Speaker 1: men who were born in Brooklyn, New York, about two
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Speaker 1: years apart. So I feel almost like we're fably, we're
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Speaker 1: kid here, we're Brooklyn boys. Please share with us your
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Speaker 1: early path and how it planted the seeds for your
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Speaker 1: work and wisdom.
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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think when even as a boy,
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Speaker 2: before I had any language for it, the world always
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Speaker 2: spoke to me in metaphor, and even when I didn't
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Speaker 2: know what that was. But you know, even as a boy,
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Speaker 2: and interestingly in Brooklyn, my first alone time was in
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Speaker 2: the alley between brownstones, right outside my grandmother's kitchen window.
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Speaker 2: But you know, if the wind went through a tree,
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Speaker 2: you know, it was like speaking to me saying, Okay,
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Speaker 2: what is this like? What is this like? And later
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Speaker 2: I understood the word metaphor, So that's been like a
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Speaker 2: native language. But I think relationally, you know, when I
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Speaker 2: was in high school and the first fall in love,
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Speaker 2: and she was a year older, and when she went
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Speaker 2: to college, first our paths parted, and of course my
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Speaker 2: heart was broken. And in dealing with those feelings, I
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Speaker 2: started to write. And I realized after a while that
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Speaker 2: I wasn't just writing talking to myself. I had begun
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Speaker 2: a conversation with life and the universe. And at that
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Speaker 2: early age, you know that the authenticity of our feelings
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Speaker 2: is kind of the threshold into that conversation. And then,
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Speaker 2: you know, fast forward to I'm seventy two and I'll
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Speaker 2: be seventy three next week. And when I met people
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Speaker 2: our age when I was younger, I thought they were ancient.
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Speaker 2: It doesn't seem so old now. But you know, in
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Speaker 2: my thirties, as you probably know from my work, I
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Speaker 2: almost died from a rare form of lymphoma, and that
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Speaker 2: really changed everything. Of course, it threw me without any
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Speaker 2: wisdom on my part. It threw me into my heart.
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Speaker 2: And ever since then my mind has served my heart
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Speaker 2: and not the other way around. And from that I
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Speaker 2: also became a student of all paths. I was raised Jewish.
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Speaker 2: I have a deep tie to the Jewish heritage, but
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Speaker 2: you know, after all, I was blessed to have people
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Speaker 2: from all traditions, formal and informal, offer me some kind
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Speaker 2: of help along the way, and so spit back into
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Speaker 2: the out of the mouth of the whale of cancer,
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Speaker 2: back into life. I was not And all these years later,
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Speaker 2: I'm still not wise enough to know what worked and
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Speaker 2: what didn't. And so I feel I was challenged to
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Speaker 2: believe in everything, And ever since then, all my work,
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Speaker 2: my teaching is I'm a student committed to the gifts
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Speaker 2: of the common center of all paths and the unique
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Speaker 2: gifts of each.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, poetry was integral to my family growing up and
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Speaker 1: inspired me. I remember in my early teens thinking that
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Speaker 1: I might have been a reincarnation of Edgar Allan Poe
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Speaker 1: as my early poetry, as my early poetry reflected this,
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Speaker 1: what birth your poetic journey? And do you think that
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Speaker 1: poets are born or evolve through life and circumstance.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And as I mentioned, I think that first that
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Speaker 2: first heartbreak opened me to the world of poetry in
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Speaker 2: high school. But I do believe that poetry, to me
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Speaker 2: is not the way words are arranged on a page.
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Speaker 2: Poetry is the unexpected utterance of the soul. And so
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Speaker 2: everyone has a poet in their heart and I just
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Speaker 2: happen to write it down. We don't even have to
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Speaker 2: write it down. I think poetry is the authentic moment
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Speaker 2: of being and seeing and feeling and embodying this mystery
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Speaker 2: we call life. In fact, one of my books, Drinking
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Speaker 2: from the River of Light, is devoted to this entire
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Speaker 2: this entire opening, the life of expression. And I have
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Speaker 2: found through the years that the creative process and the
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Speaker 2: introspective process are very much the same thing. It's, you know,
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Speaker 2: we're just not caring for it or turning it into
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Speaker 2: an artifact that we call a poem or a book
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Speaker 2: or you know. So I think that and this also affects,
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Speaker 2: you know, the way that I write. Like if I
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Speaker 2: share a poem or whatever I might be writing and
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Speaker 2: it ends with an image or an insight, it's not
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Speaker 2: that I plan, oh, that would be a good place
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Speaker 2: to wind up. They're more like, if I follow a feeling,
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Speaker 2: a thought, a confusion, a fear, an image, an idea,
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Speaker 2: a story, if I'm authentic in it, in following it,
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Speaker 2: then I'm rewarded with an insight, much like introspection. And
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Speaker 2: so I feel like I retrieve these poems and then
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Speaker 2: they become my teachers because I'm not that smart to
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Speaker 2: plan it all out.
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Speaker 1: Poetry is inspired, isn't it?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it is, And especially when we think
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Speaker 2: of inspire and spare a it comes from spirit, which
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Speaker 2: is breath, So you know it is inspired. It is
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Speaker 2: how life moves through us from into out and what
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Speaker 2: that does to us both ways, and the recording or
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Speaker 2: that conversation helps us live life to the fullest. It
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Speaker 2: helps us in habit our compassion, It helps us expand
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Speaker 2: and deepen our understanding.
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Speaker 1: What would you offer to any of our listeners or
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Speaker 1: your readers who are fledgling poets and would like to
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Speaker 1: express the way we do well?
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Speaker 2: The first thing I would offer is, you know, we
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Speaker 2: live in a world that overemphasizes accomplishment and excellent and
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Speaker 2: trying to be great. I would say I would encourage
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Speaker 2: folks to hold nothing back, open their heart and aspire
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Speaker 2: to be true not great. Yeah, true, not great. You know,
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Speaker 2: when we meditate, we meditate to become clear vessels. We
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Speaker 2: don't meditate to become great breathers. And likewise, in any
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Speaker 2: art form, when we express, when we write, in writing
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Speaker 2: and poetry, for instance. We don't write to become great poets,
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Speaker 2: but to become true vessels. And if we're true, then
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Speaker 2: excellence will follow, much the way a flame will always
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Speaker 2: give off heat, you know. I remember this is my father,
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Speaker 2: who was not my father was a very creative force.
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Speaker 2: But he was a master woodworker, and I just absorb
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Speaker 2: so much from him, and I remember, and so you know,
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Speaker 2: I work with different material, but I learned a lot
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Speaker 2: about creativity from just watching him. And a very big
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Speaker 2: moment for me was I was maybe eight or nine,
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Speaker 2: and he also loved the sea, and he built a
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Speaker 2: thirty foot wooden sailboat in our backyard when we were
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Speaker 2: kids that I spent a lot of my youth on.
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Speaker 2: And he also was involved in making what are called
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Speaker 2: half models. He would get plans blueprints for sailing ships
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Speaker 2: from the eighteen hundreds and build them identically to scale.
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Speaker 2: Maybe they'd only be four feet five feet long, and
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Speaker 2: they were in half because you would hang them on
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Speaker 2: the wall when they were finished. And I remember watching him.
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Speaker 2: He didn't know I was watching through the sea through
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Speaker 2: stairs of our basement home on Long Island, and I
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Speaker 2: watched him Victor he was using a tweezer to throw
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Speaker 2: rigging into these very small you know, through this masts
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Speaker 2: and these halliards and all very tiny and and I
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Speaker 2: was just captivated by his immense immersion. And later I
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Speaker 2: realized that he was showing me the secret life of detail.
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Speaker 2: How every small you know this, this the personal carries
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Speaker 2: the universal, the particular carries the whole of life, and
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Speaker 2: if we devote and open our heart to it. And
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Speaker 2: so it wasn't And of course he did excellent work,
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Speaker 2: but it was more about immersion, and excellence was the byproduct.
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Speaker 2: And and I think that immersion is part of our
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Speaker 2: the requirement to experience oneness.
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Speaker 1: I hate to ask you this question because it's like
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Speaker 1: asking a father, which is your favorite child? With your
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Speaker 1: numerous poetry books, is there one that particularly stands out
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Speaker 1: for you? And if so, why, well.
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Speaker 2: I would have to say too one early on was
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Speaker 2: a real vision that taught me so much. When I
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Speaker 2: was in my late twenties, mid twenties, actually, I wrote
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Speaker 2: an epic poem it took ten years to write, called
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Speaker 2: Fire without Witness, and it was a vision of Michaelangelo
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Speaker 2: painting the Sistine ceiling. And there are twenty five panels
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Speaker 2: on the ceiling and as he paints them. The structure
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Speaker 2: of the epic poem is the characters come alive and
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Speaker 2: tell their stories, and I and only you as the reader,
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Speaker 2: know that. And you go back and forth from hearing
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Speaker 2: their stories as he paints them and brings them to
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Speaker 2: life and his story. And you know, that was such
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Speaker 2: a an incredible, you know vision, which I was so
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Speaker 2: excited in my twenties, and I wrote steadily for six
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Speaker 2: months and then like running driving a car to the
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Speaker 2: edge of a cliff, I ran out of all I
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Speaker 2: knew and I had to stop and do research for
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Speaker 2: six and seven years, and both into biblical narrative and
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Speaker 2: into the Renaissance and into Michelangelo. And then when I returned,
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Speaker 2: I then finished the epic poem, and I back in
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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, I had a month residency at an
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Speaker 2: artist colony in Saratoga Spring called Yado well known. I
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Speaker 2: was blessed to get that at such a young age
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Speaker 2: and finished the book there. So that taught me so
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Speaker 2: so much. And the other book that I'm just you
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Speaker 2: know again, it is hard, like choosing favorites. But the
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Speaker 2: other one that recently is the this this past year
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Speaker 2: I published a book called The Half Life of Angels,
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Speaker 2: which has three books of poems in one volume, and
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Speaker 2: it gathers poems from my fifties and sixties, and that
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Speaker 2: just feels very humbling, and I'm so grateful to have
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Speaker 2: that out. And I'd say one thing that I learned interesting,
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Speaker 2: you know, and going over all of this, one thing
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Speaker 2: I learned that I would affirm for all all poets
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Speaker 2: is in order to revise your work, just wait thirty years.
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Speaker 2: It becomes very clear. Absolutely, it becomes very clear, and
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Speaker 2: things that were, you know, precious or hard to let
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Speaker 2: go of, it's very obvious what belongs and what doesn't.
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Speaker 2: But the interesting shift, and this is not for better
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Speaker 2: or worse. But I in going over all of that
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Speaker 2: material and looking back even further to earlier books of poems,
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Speaker 2: I reckon ny is that when I was younger, it
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Speaker 2: was like I was diving into the deep and bringing
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Speaker 2: something up to share with you. And somewhere in the
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Speaker 2: last twenty years, I can't pinpoint where I live in
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Speaker 2: the deep. And now I invite you to come down
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Speaker 2: and visit with me. And so the stance of being
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Speaker 2: of the poems has shifted.
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Speaker 1: Would you please share with us one of the poems
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Speaker 1: from that book.
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Speaker 2: Oh sure, I'd love to. And this is also a
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Speaker 2: poem that I could not have written when I was younger,
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Speaker 2: just because of the view. Yeah, this is called praying
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Speaker 2: I will find. I used to have so many plans,
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Speaker 2: good plans, grand plans. In the beginning, I would be
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Speaker 2: annoyed by the calamities i'd meet along the way way
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Speaker 2: that would keep me from my plans. I used to
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Speaker 2: pride myself on how I could get back on track
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Speaker 2: so quickly. But the more I loved and the more
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Speaker 2: I suffered, the more my plans were interrupted by those
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Speaker 2: in need. Eventually, the call of life, unexpected and unrehearsed,
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Speaker 2: made Swiss cheese of my plans. Now, like an emperor
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Speaker 2: undressed by time, I wander the days naked of plans,
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Speaker 2: praying I will find love to give and suffering to
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Speaker 2: heal before the sun goes down.
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Speaker 1: Beautiful, Thank you so much. I love that the thank
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Speaker 1: you the emperor stript of his clothes. What does that
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Speaker 1: mean to you?
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Speaker 2: Well, it means that you know all the rolls, masks, inspirations, narratives, uh,
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Speaker 2: our achievements, our failures, our wounds, all all of that eventually,
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Speaker 2: if we're blessed, is stripped away and we're just here.
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Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, one of the the
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Speaker 2: insights from almost dying from cancer all those years ago
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Speaker 2: was that I think erosion, what the way, what erosion
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Speaker 2: is to nature, suffering is to humans. And mysteriously paradoxically,
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Speaker 2: our journey is one where everything that can break will
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Speaker 2: till all that's left is what's unbreakable, and we're nakedive plans.
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Speaker 2: We're fully here.
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Speaker 1: Your combined written works have sold more than one million copies,
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Speaker 1: and perhaps it's the most well known to our audience
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Speaker 1: is your New York Times number one bestseller from two thousand,
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Speaker 1: the Book of Awakening, Having the life you want by
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Speaker 1: being present to the life you have. What inspired this
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Speaker 1: work and what do you share with readers?
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Speaker 2: Well, that book came, you know, after my cancer journey.
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Speaker 2: I was looking for what what could I write that
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Speaker 2: would be that would have small doses of what matter,
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Speaker 2: that could be like you know, inner medicine, giving back
17:32
Speaker 2: of some way. And I had many people I still
17:35
Speaker 2: do in my life who are either in recovery from
17:40
Speaker 2: addiction or are you know, like adult children of alcoholics
17:46
Speaker 2: and and so of course, as I you know, I
17:49
Speaker 2: noticed very quickly back then that there were day books
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Speaker 2: in those worlds that were really used. I mean, you know,
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Speaker 2: you saw them beat up in cars and bathrooms and
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Speaker 2: you know, on the subway, they even back pockets. And
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Speaker 2: so I started to see that that daybook form was
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Speaker 2: like a modern spiritual sonnet, if you will, and that
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Speaker 2: was a form that I thought, gee, if I could
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Speaker 2: fill that, that might be a good form for this.
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Speaker 2: So of course, you know, initially, like anyone, I think, oh, well,
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Speaker 2: you know, they're daily entries. They're short, but there's three
18:25
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty five of them. So all of a sudden,
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Speaker 2: it was a mammoth project, and it took three years
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Speaker 2: to really retrieve them. And then and you know, and
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Speaker 2: it was also a place where I could gather and
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Speaker 2: use quotes from many other teachers and other poets and
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Speaker 2: bring other voices into it. And then, you know, because
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Speaker 2: I was very interested in offering people a way to
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Speaker 2: bring whatever is in these entries into their life, it
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Speaker 2: took me a whole ten months to create and try
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Speaker 2: out a meditation for each one and then put it
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Speaker 2: on and you know, all of my books, as you
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Speaker 2: can see in the latest one. You know, I offer
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Speaker 2: at the end of every chapter questions to walk with,
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Speaker 2: both journal questions and dialogue conversation questions. All is a
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Speaker 2: way to invite readers to see, where does this live
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Speaker 2: in your life? If it speaks to you, how where
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Speaker 2: is that? And so yeah, so what I offer in there,
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Speaker 2: which you know, I think it's interesting that you know,
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Speaker 2: we we live forward, but we map backwards. And so
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Speaker 2: you know, all of my books, I had no idea
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Speaker 2: what one would lead to the next throughout my life,
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Speaker 2: but looking back, there's a clear path of learning, you know,
19:55
Speaker 2: the first and that subtitle having the life you want
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Speaker 2: by being present of a life you have. I had
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Speaker 2: no idea that that would be kind of a foundational
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Speaker 2: theme and inquiry of my entire life and all my
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Speaker 2: work that Heaven is right here if we open our
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Speaker 2: hearts to being here fully. And so you know that
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Speaker 2: book was the Book of Awakening, and the next book
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Speaker 2: after that was The Exquisite Risk. Well, once you're awake,
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Speaker 2: you got to take risks. And the next book after
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Speaker 2: that was Finding Inner Courage. And Okay, if you're awake
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Speaker 2: and you take risk, well, then you need to know
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Speaker 2: about courage, and then after that it was seven thousand
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Speaker 2: ways to listen. Well, if you're here and you're taking risks,
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Speaker 2: now it's time to be quiet and listen. So, you know,
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Speaker 2: they just evolved when I look back, in perfect organic sense,
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Speaker 2: but going forward, they were the thresholds of what I
20:53
Speaker 2: needed to learn to be more alive.
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Speaker 1: And before we get into your just published book, you
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Speaker 1: don't have to do it alone, the power of friendship.
21:03
Speaker 1: Please tell us about last year's falling down and getting up,
21:07
Speaker 1: discovering your inner strength and resilience. What inspired that work
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Speaker 1: and what do you share with readers.
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Speaker 2: Well that that book. Interestingly, you know, I have a
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Speaker 2: wonderful creative relationship with Joel Fotinos, my publisher and editor
21:24
Speaker 2: at Saint Martin's Essentials, And in our conversations, Joel was
21:29
Speaker 2: noticing that, you know. He said, you know you, you
21:32
Speaker 2: kind of you teach more. You have a more active
21:35
Speaker 2: teaching schedule than many of my other authors. And he
21:39
Speaker 2: started asking me about my teaching and we talked a
21:43
Speaker 2: lot about that, and it's very sacred space for me.
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Speaker 2: I love it. It's so good for me, and it's
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Speaker 2: such a journey. And and so then he asked me
21:52
Speaker 2: this question. He said, well, if if someone couldn't be
21:57
Speaker 2: in one of your teaching circles, what book would come
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Speaker 2: closest to that experience? Well, my god, what an invitation.
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Speaker 2: And that was the birth of falling down and Getting Up.
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Speaker 2: And I looked across the many different sessions and themes
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Speaker 2: and ways that I explore things, and I started to
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Speaker 2: shape it into this book, which really looks at you know.
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Speaker 2: And what triggered the title is in medieval times in Europe,
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Speaker 2: medieval monks, when asked how they practiced their faith, said
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Speaker 2: by falling down and getting up. And I love that,
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Speaker 2: and you know, it triggered me immediately to when I
22:41
Speaker 2: awoke all those years ago. I had a rib removed
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Speaker 2: from my back in one of my surgeries, and I
22:47
Speaker 2: just was coming to in the hospital room when this
22:50
Speaker 2: kind but kind of gruff nurse was hovering over me, saying,
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Speaker 2: get up, we're going to walk, and I said, who's
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Speaker 2: going to walk? You know? And then she got closer
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Speaker 2: and said two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward,
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Speaker 2: one step back, falling down and getting up. And then
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Speaker 2: I learned later that in the Hindu Apanishads, the great
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Speaker 2: Anonymous Hindu Holy Hindu text, which is filled with metaphors.
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Speaker 2: In one of them, there's a metaphor about how they
23:24
Speaker 2: describe how a caterpillar moves and it bunches up, and
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Speaker 2: when it bunches up, it actually goes back a step,
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Speaker 2: and then when it extends it moves forward, two steps forward,
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Speaker 2: one step back. And in the Upanishads they use this
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Speaker 2: metaphor to say, this is the rhythm of spiritual growth.
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Speaker 2: So actually, when nobody signs up to fall down, I'll
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Speaker 2: take two. But we will fall down because we live
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Speaker 2: with gravity. We're on this journey and it's not of failure.
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Speaker 2: It's part of the developmental, evolving process of being a
24:07
Speaker 2: spirit in a body in time on earth. So if
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Speaker 2: we look at it and learn there's an art to it,
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Speaker 2: and the question is what is our It's actually a
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Speaker 2: dance over a lifetime, the way the way waves crest
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Speaker 2: and you go in the belly of a wave and
24:24
Speaker 2: then it crests, and then it crashes and then it
24:26
Speaker 2: swells again. And so what is the art and how
24:30
Speaker 2: do we live it? And when we resist falling, then
24:37
Speaker 2: we add to our suffering because and in the modern world,
24:41
Speaker 2: I think this is very true. There is a suffering
24:45
Speaker 2: that comes from resisting legitimate suffering, so the book explores.
24:51
Speaker 2: In the center of the book is also a section
24:53
Speaker 2: devoted to what I call the deeper teachers, fear, pain
24:57
Speaker 2: and grief.
25:00
Speaker 1: This is the wonderful work of my guest, Mark Nepo.
25:03
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about his new book. You
25:05
Speaker 1: don't have to do it alone the power of friendship. Mark,
25:09
Speaker 1: please share with our listeners where they can get all
25:11
Speaker 1: of your wonderful work and find out more about you.
25:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. So. At Marknepo dot com, which is
25:17
Speaker 2: my website, you can find about where I'm teaching, and
25:21
Speaker 2: I'm doing everything from a year long courses where a
25:24
Speaker 2: small group of people come together for four weekends over
25:29
Speaker 2: a year, so we go through a year together, and
25:31
Speaker 2: that's in Michigan where I live, to doing mastery weeks
25:37
Speaker 2: in Mexico for the Modern Elder Academy, to in May,
25:41
Speaker 2: I'll be leading a river cruise for a week in France.
25:44
Speaker 2: So there's a whole range of things and that can
25:46
Speaker 2: all be found as well as my books at Marknepo
25:49
Speaker 2: dot com.
25:51
Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more of Mark after these
25:53
Speaker 1: words on the own Times Radio Network.
25:56
Speaker 3: The cutting edge of conscious radio. Home Times Radio I own.
26:00
Speaker 3: Ome Times Magazine is one of the leading online content
26:04
Speaker 3: providers of positivity, wellness and personal empowerment. A philanthropic organization,
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Speaker 3: their net proceeds are finnaled to support worldwide charity initiatives
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26:36
Speaker 1: Back on Destination Unlimited. My guest this week the amazing,
26:40
Speaker 1: wonderful and wise Bark Napa Mark. Growing up in the
26:44
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, I remember songs like Buzzy Linhart's Friends,
26:49
Speaker 1: which was a hit for Bette Midler, and Carol King's
26:52
Speaker 1: You've Got a Friend that was also a hit for
26:54
Speaker 1: James Taylor. Your new book, You Don't Have to Do
26:57
Speaker 1: It Alone, The Power of Friendship. Is this as an
27:00
Speaker 1: exploration and celebration of friendship and community. What inspired this
27:05
Speaker 1: book and what are you exploring it?
27:08
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, you know, I've always wanted to write a
27:11
Speaker 2: book about spirit and friendship, you know, I you know. Famously,
27:15
Speaker 2: the Dalai Lama has said that kindness is his religion,
27:19
Speaker 2: and you know, reflecting on that, I think friendship is mine,
27:23
Speaker 2: and it's just been so important. I think one of
27:27
Speaker 2: the central paradoxes of life, and maybe the most central,
27:31
Speaker 2: is that no one can live your life for you.
27:34
Speaker 2: No one has ever been here who is you, And
27:38
Speaker 2: no one can do it alone. In fact, I think
27:41
Speaker 2: a modern disease, psychological disease, is that we think we
27:45
Speaker 2: can do it alone. And so, you know, all the
27:49
Speaker 2: ways I wouldn't be here if not for the love
27:53
Speaker 2: and care of so many friends and people, and my
27:57
Speaker 2: friends have become my family. And it's also you know
28:03
Speaker 2: and well, and so one of the things I wanted
28:05
Speaker 2: to explore is to bear witness to that journey of
28:11
Speaker 2: what does it really mean to be a friend? How
28:13
Speaker 2: do we how do we initiated the challenges of friendship,
28:19
Speaker 2: the limitations, the you know, how it opens us together
28:26
Speaker 2: to the larger resources of life. So all of that
28:31
Speaker 2: and paying tribute to the friendships that I've had and
28:35
Speaker 2: and encouraging people you know that too. We we we
28:42
Speaker 2: discover friends, and I think so much of it is
28:46
Speaker 2: not like going out looking for a friend, but you know,
28:50
Speaker 2: by being who we are we're open to true connection. Well,
28:56
Speaker 2: just there's a direct link between opening ourselves and connecting
29:04
Speaker 2: with others.
29:06
Speaker 1: When did you first become aware of the power of friendship?
29:11
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I think it was in college. You know,
29:19
Speaker 2: in high school, I would say, I mean, I wasn't
29:22
Speaker 2: a loner, but I had what you guess you'd call acquaintances.
29:27
Speaker 2: And it wasn't til college that I really had my
29:30
Speaker 2: first deep friendships where you know, we could be broken
29:37
Speaker 2: with each other, we could be in pain and fear,
29:41
Speaker 2: and it wasn't just all about having a good time
29:45
Speaker 2: or showing up with our best face. And so discovering
29:50
Speaker 2: that people would actually be there for me and me
29:57
Speaker 2: for them opened up a whole nother way of being
30:01
Speaker 2: that I never knew before.
30:03
Speaker 1: Then, what are the different manifestations of friendship?
30:08
Speaker 2: Well, let's let's start with what the word. The word
30:11
Speaker 2: friendship goes back to a German into a German root
30:15
Speaker 2: word into European that means place of high safety. And
30:22
Speaker 2: you know, Cicero had said that two quotes, and then
30:26
Speaker 2: we'll kind of look at that all together. I mean,
30:28
Speaker 2: Cicero said a friend is a second self and uh,
30:34
Speaker 2: you know, meaning I think of course I didn't talk
30:37
Speaker 2: to Cicero, so I don't know what he meant. But
30:38
Speaker 2: what to me is that we can be completely who
30:45
Speaker 2: we are. You know that that a friend is someone
30:49
Speaker 2: that you can bring all of who you are too.
30:51
Speaker 2: You don't have to pose or hold back or hide.
30:54
Speaker 2: And then, you know, I use as the epigraph for
30:57
Speaker 2: the book. You know, Ralph Walder Emerson said a friend
31:01
Speaker 2: may be, or friendship may be the masterpiece of nature.
31:05
Speaker 2: So I think a friend the manifestations of friendship. And
31:11
Speaker 2: in the early part of the book, I think it's
31:13
Speaker 2: a unity of souls. I think it is a way
31:18
Speaker 2: that we seek truth together. I think it's a way
31:25
Speaker 2: that we travel. Uh. You know, there's a great I
31:30
Speaker 2: actually use this in another book of mine called Inside
31:33
Speaker 2: the Miracle. But there's a print by Hokusai, the Great,
31:39
Speaker 2: you know, the great Japanese Woodblock. Uh. Here's Shigi and Hokusai.
31:46
Speaker 2: It's I've often been said that together they are the
31:48
Speaker 2: Shakespeare of woodblock in Japan. And and and here Shigi
31:54
Speaker 2: had this beautiful print of a suspension bridge. And it's
31:59
Speaker 2: it's not a it's a bridge that's made out of
32:03
Speaker 2: planks and rope, very narrow, and so as you're stepping
32:08
Speaker 2: on it, it dips, you know, I mean you see
32:11
Speaker 2: the way. So there's these two people in the middle
32:14
Speaker 2: of this suspension bridge crossing between two cliffs, and where
32:19
Speaker 2: they're standing is you know, it holds, but it dips.
32:23
Speaker 2: And to me, that is a great image of real
32:28
Speaker 2: life friendship and that very foundational, both sturdy and precarious
32:39
Speaker 2: walk through life along the corridor of a liveness. And
32:44
Speaker 2: how do we help each other? How do we hold
32:46
Speaker 2: each other when the view makes us dizzy? How do
32:50
Speaker 2: we hold each other up when we feel like we
32:52
Speaker 2: can't go on? And again in that paradox, everybody needs someone,
33:01
Speaker 2: you know, Helen Luke, who I also in the book
33:04
Speaker 2: she was a Jungian analyst, was an unexpected mentor for
33:07
Speaker 2: me in the late nineties, and you know she talks
33:11
Speaker 2: about I quoted her in the book that you know
33:13
Speaker 2: she said, no one, no one can journey through the
33:18
Speaker 2: inner world without a trusted, loved one who believes in
33:25
Speaker 2: their journey. And so that's very Again, that's very because
33:29
Speaker 2: it doesn't say they rescue, or they cheer, or they
33:33
Speaker 2: do it for you know, each of us has to
33:37
Speaker 2: do that journey alone, and yet no one can do
33:42
Speaker 2: it without a trusted loved one believing in each of us.
33:49
Speaker 1: Can you say more about the nature of spiritual friendship?
33:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think spiritual friendship, So I think that,
33:59
Speaker 2: you know, let's back up and talk for a second
34:02
Speaker 2: about the spiritual journey. So I have come to feel
34:06
Speaker 2: and believe that everyone whoever lives, will be given the
34:10
Speaker 2: opportunity to be dropped into the depth of life. Now, often,
34:15
Speaker 2: like me, it was cancer. It's often it can be
34:18
Speaker 2: something that's very difficult or life threatening, but it also
34:23
Speaker 2: can be beauty and wonder and surprise and grace. So
34:28
Speaker 2: it's not just suffering. But when when we're dropped into
34:33
Speaker 2: that depth, then our journey turns completely relational. We and
34:40
Speaker 2: and our and our quest is about what kind of
34:43
Speaker 2: part of my and what kind of universe? How do
34:45
Speaker 2: I relate to everything larger than me? How do I
34:50
Speaker 2: uh be as fully alive as possible while I'm here?
34:54
Speaker 2: How do I you know, as as you were talking, Victor,
34:57
Speaker 2: how do how do I uh all for service and
35:01
Speaker 2: compassion and kindness and help things repair and heal and
35:06
Speaker 2: join and so often, And this is very interesting that
35:10
Speaker 2: in the Buddhist tradition, you know, there is what's called
35:15
Speaker 2: Hinayana Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism. And it's interesting if you
35:21
Speaker 2: look at I mean the emphasis in mah in Hinayana.
35:24
Speaker 2: It's not that we don't still try to help people,
35:28
Speaker 2: but the emphasis is on the solo journey. Like hineyana
35:32
Speaker 2: means small raft, and it's like that emphasizes the part that, Okay,
35:39
Speaker 2: I'm rooting for you, but it's your work. But mahayana
35:45
Speaker 2: means big raft. And while that acknowledges that no one
35:50
Speaker 2: can do it for you, it also says you know,
35:54
Speaker 2: I'm here for you. And actually, in some kind of
35:57
Speaker 2: paradoxical way, when you do your and I do mine,
36:01
Speaker 2: we're more together than alone, which is the name of
36:04
Speaker 2: another book of mine about community. And so the spiritual
36:08
Speaker 2: journey is one where once we're we're seeking the depths
36:14
Speaker 2: of what it is to be here. A spiritual friend
36:19
Speaker 2: explores that together helped support us and we share that
36:26
Speaker 2: deeper inner conversation with life. And I think that's where
36:32
Speaker 2: you know. I'll give you two examples at personal examples,
36:35
Speaker 2: My oldest friend, dearest friend, Robert Mason, who is also
36:40
Speaker 2: a poet. Almost forty years ago. You know, we we
36:45
Speaker 2: were in graduate school together, but he is in recovery
36:48
Speaker 2: now forty years as an alcoholic, and he hit bottom
36:52
Speaker 2: when I found myself in the hospital with a tumor
36:56
Speaker 2: on my brain, and we helped save each other's lives,
37:02
Speaker 2: and you know, we were so in the depth of
37:06
Speaker 2: it together that you know, I had you know, five
37:10
Speaker 2: six years later, when we were both on the other
37:12
Speaker 2: side back in life. We were having lunch in the
37:18
Speaker 2: summer out in the park, and I had neuropathy from
37:24
Speaker 2: the chemo that I had, and he had neuropathy because
37:29
Speaker 2: he almost died from severe alcoholism. So here we are
37:33
Speaker 2: with numb fingers, eating our sandwiches, and in the silence,
37:37
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, Robert says to me, I had cancer.
37:43
Speaker 2: And I knew he was saying that I was so
37:48
Speaker 2: there for you and opened my heart that I experienced
37:52
Speaker 2: it as if I had it, And I welled up
37:56
Speaker 2: and said, and I'm an alcoholic. And the other example
38:02
Speaker 2: is more recently, I had another friend back then who
38:06
Speaker 2: helped save my life, Paul, and we've been friends for
38:11
Speaker 2: forty years, brothers, and about eighteen months ago, his wife
38:16
Speaker 2: of twenty five years suddenly died of a massive heart attack,
38:21
Speaker 2: and he's been devastated, and of course I want to
38:26
Speaker 2: be there for him, and I am there for him,
38:30
Speaker 2: and I'm talking to you from my study and he's,
38:33
Speaker 2: you know, we have upped the you know, we now
38:36
Speaker 2: taught zoom every week. We visit each other four times
38:39
Speaker 2: a year. It just was a call to say, we're
38:43
Speaker 2: fine if we don't see each other. We pick up
38:45
Speaker 2: where we left off, but we need to see each
38:48
Speaker 2: other now more. We need to really pull this back
38:52
Speaker 2: together in close proximity. And so he was here last
38:56
Speaker 2: summer and it's in the book Falling Down and Getting Up.
39:02
Speaker 2: There's a chapter called the Life After Tears, and it
39:06
Speaker 2: could have gone in this book about friendship, but you
39:09
Speaker 2: were sitting here in tears. In this I have a
39:12
Speaker 2: rocker right in front of me. And he said, now
39:16
Speaker 2: that I've lost my dear Linda, I am living in
39:20
Speaker 2: the life after tears. And I think that's so powerful
39:25
Speaker 2: because I think that also speaks to the spiritual friendship
39:29
Speaker 2: and the spiritual journey. Once whether there are tears of
39:32
Speaker 2: joy or tears of humility, or tears of grief. Once
39:38
Speaker 2: we are broken of being conceptual, once that clear glass
39:46
Speaker 2: wall cracks, there is nothing between us and life. There
39:52
Speaker 2: is nothing between us and each other. And we are
39:55
Speaker 2: now in the life after tears, and that's a blessing.
40:00
Speaker 2: And then poignantly, he said, I the only thing that
40:04
Speaker 2: breaks my heart is that now I'm in their life
40:07
Speaker 2: after tears. It's a place I can't share with my
40:11
Speaker 2: dear Linda, who losing her brought me here. So this
40:18
Speaker 2: is all in the realm of spiritual friendship.
40:23
Speaker 1: There are so many ways that we may share in friendship.
40:27
Speaker 1: From my personal experience, one of these ways is truly
40:31
Speaker 1: listening to a friend who needs to be heard without
40:34
Speaker 1: interjection or opining. What would you share with us about listening?
40:39
Speaker 2: Oh, my god, And that's the whole book I wrote
40:42
Speaker 2: on listening called seven Thousand Ways to Listen. And this
40:45
Speaker 2: is a very key part of how I teach, you know,
40:48
Speaker 2: in the circles I teach when we break up into
40:51
Speaker 2: pairs to explore how whatever we're looking at, where it
40:56
Speaker 2: lives in your life. I invite people when in another
40:59
Speaker 2: per is speaking, there is no cross talk. We're not
41:05
Speaker 2: here to fix or give advice. We're here to be
41:07
Speaker 2: present and listen. Because when we listen, you know, Thomas
41:13
Speaker 2: Merton had said, if we truly beheld each other, we
41:16
Speaker 2: would fall down and worship each other. And so if
41:20
Speaker 2: I'm truly listening to you, I don't know what I'm
41:22
Speaker 2: going to say next, you know, so often out of
41:25
Speaker 2: even goodwill, even meaning well, we're preparing what to respond with.
41:31
Speaker 2: And as soon as we do that, we're not present.
41:35
Speaker 2: So listening with the heart. And this is a big
41:39
Speaker 2: distinction too, is that you know, in our modern world,
41:41
Speaker 2: when if I say to you, learn this by heart,
41:46
Speaker 2: well we think that means to memorize it. That's not
41:50
Speaker 2: what learning by heart means. Learning by heart means I
41:55
Speaker 2: am so present with you that I will be changed
42:00
Speaker 2: after being with you. And so the listening, you know,
42:06
Speaker 2: often by listening and by opening up, first off, we
42:11
Speaker 2: are open to we don't know what, we don't know
42:16
Speaker 2: what's coming, we don't know what we're going to feel.
42:18
Speaker 2: We're actually living into the next moment, which is has
42:24
Speaker 2: not yet been written. And I also find that when
42:27
Speaker 2: people truly listen to another, we give them the space
42:33
Speaker 2: to think and feel out loud so that they can
42:37
Speaker 2: discover what they didn't know they know. So I think
42:42
Speaker 2: when we think and feel out loud in the company
42:45
Speaker 2: of a friend, that is for a soul. That kind
42:51
Speaker 2: of talking is what sketching is for an artist. We
42:56
Speaker 2: don't know where it's going, We don't know what's going on. Yeah,
43:00
Speaker 2: So I think listening is is really how the heart breathes.
43:07
Speaker 2: I think it's a crucial threshold to everything.
43:13
Speaker 1: My guest is Mark Nepo. We'll be back with more
43:16
Speaker 1: after these words on the Own Times Radio network.
43:22
Speaker 4: Humanity Healing International is a small nonprofit with a big dream.
43:27
Speaker 4: Since two thousand and seven, HHI has been working tirelessly
43:31
Speaker 4: to bring help to communities with little or no oh.
43:35
Speaker 4: Our projects are not broad mandates, nor are they overnight solutions,
43:40
Speaker 4: but they bring the reassurance then no one is alone
43:43
Speaker 4: and that someone cares. To learn more, please visit Humanityhealing
43:47
Speaker 4: dot org. Humanity Healing is where your Heart is.
43:52
Speaker 1: Back on Destination Unlimited. My guest this week is Mark Nepo.
43:57
Speaker 1: Mark Our healthy boundaries an important part of powerful friendships.
44:05
Speaker 2: Yes, and so let's talk a moment about what healthy
44:09
Speaker 2: boundaries really means. You know, one of the things being
44:13
Speaker 2: human that I've done and we've all done. And it's
44:17
Speaker 2: how we veer one side to the other. You know
44:21
Speaker 2: too much one way too. So you know, if I
44:23
Speaker 2: opened my heart to you, I can become your suffering.
44:28
Speaker 2: I can lose myself, I can become codependent. And then
44:34
Speaker 2: when something like that happens, well, then a lot of
44:38
Speaker 2: times what we do and again I've done this is
44:40
Speaker 2: throughout my life too. I go, well, I had no
44:42
Speaker 2: idea it was going to be like that. That's I'm
44:45
Speaker 2: not going to do that again. And then we build
44:46
Speaker 2: a wall and now we're unreachable. But what I've learned,
44:51
Speaker 2: I think in the second half of my life that
44:53
Speaker 2: healthy boundaries means having porous boundaries where I'm not cut
45:00
Speaker 2: off from everyone and I'm not I don't have a
45:07
Speaker 2: losing myself to everyone. So two things here that I'll
45:11
Speaker 2: give you an example and a metaphor and then a
45:16
Speaker 2: personal example. And so you know, in Dante's Divine Comedy,
45:21
Speaker 2: which we're all asked to read way too young, as
45:27
Speaker 2: Dante is walking through hell and you know he sees
45:31
Speaker 2: all these different there's all these wonderful stories and little
45:34
Speaker 2: parables and metaphors. Well, on one little sighting he has
45:38
Speaker 2: while he's moving through hell as he sees two lovers,
45:42
Speaker 2: Francesco and Pablo, and the line is that they are
45:48
Speaker 2: in Hell circling each other in endless identification with each other. Okay,
45:56
Speaker 2: nothing said, now, one hundred basis later in the Paradiso, Hey,
46:04
Speaker 2: there's Francesco and Paolo. Again. They're still circling each other,
46:08
Speaker 2: but now the line is now each has a center
46:14
Speaker 2: and they are orbiting each other. And so the powerful
46:18
Speaker 2: distinction here offered without a lot of commentary, is Hell
46:25
Speaker 2: is being in relationship without a center. Paradise is being
46:29
Speaker 2: in relationship with a center. So how do we have
46:34
Speaker 2: these porous boundaries? How do we not lose who we
46:37
Speaker 2: are and at the same time not remove ourselves completely?
46:44
Speaker 2: And so the personal example is, you know, I have
46:46
Speaker 2: a friend who suffer You know, we all have our stuff,
46:50
Speaker 2: and my friend suffers from depression and anxiety. Well, I
46:55
Speaker 2: have my stuff, but thankfully that's that's not my stuff.
46:59
Speaker 2: But I'm committed on this journey with my friend, and
47:03
Speaker 2: so I'm there with them. But I have to remember
47:06
Speaker 2: after I visit them that I'm not anxious or depressed.
47:11
Speaker 2: And so what I have to do is I give
47:13
Speaker 2: myself completely to what their struggles are. Where we are listening,
47:19
Speaker 2: being their feeling. But when I leave, I have to
47:23
Speaker 2: do something to restore my direct connection to life. Often
47:28
Speaker 2: that's putting my face in the sun while walking with
47:31
Speaker 2: my dog. So it's not coupling with the friends suffering,
47:39
Speaker 2: and it's not removing ourselves. It's how to I learn
47:44
Speaker 2: and practice staying who I am while keeping the boundaries
47:50
Speaker 2: porous and open that I'm not going to disappear by
47:55
Speaker 2: exposing my heart. I also so, I think this is
48:01
Speaker 2: kind of the realm of mature maturing boundaries.
48:07
Speaker 1: Many businesses offer programs they call friends and family plans.
48:13
Speaker 1: Are there friends who are more like family than our
48:15
Speaker 1: birth family? And does this call for rectification with strained
48:19
Speaker 1: birth family relationships?
48:22
Speaker 2: Well, I think, and and and so I speak from
48:25
Speaker 2: my own experience. You know, So I have an experiential
48:30
Speaker 2: bias because you know, I don't feel I think people
48:34
Speaker 2: who have deep family ties, healthy ones are a miracle
48:39
Speaker 2: there there. I marvel at them. I meet people in
48:42
Speaker 2: my you know, a lot of times I'll have a
48:44
Speaker 2: father and a son, or a mother and a grown
48:47
Speaker 2: mother and a daughter in a retreat, and I just
48:50
Speaker 2: brings me to tears because I didn't have that. I
48:54
Speaker 2: had a very dysfunctional family that was difficult, and I
49:01
Speaker 2: was a strange from my parents for many years. Around
49:03
Speaker 2: my cancer journey and their inability to be there, I
49:07
Speaker 2: reconnected with my father and who lived to be ninety three.
49:11
Speaker 2: In the last five six seven years. We wonderfully connected.
49:15
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful. But you know so, I think that
49:22
Speaker 2: just because their blood family, I don't think that we
49:26
Speaker 2: are required to diminish ourselves to try to reclimate that
49:34
Speaker 2: bond if it's not mutual. And I do think that
49:39
Speaker 2: our friends can be our family because we commit to
49:45
Speaker 2: those relationships, we choose them, and we hold them sacred.
49:50
Speaker 2: So again, it's not that I think that our family
49:52
Speaker 2: can be friends if it's healthy. And I wish I
49:56
Speaker 2: had that, I didn't. I've learned in my life that
50:03
Speaker 2: And again I'll give you a personal example that you
50:08
Speaker 2: know in I think because I couldn't find that kind
50:13
Speaker 2: of relationship at home, unconsciously, I made the world my home,
50:20
Speaker 2: and I think that's served me. I think that's why
50:24
Speaker 2: I've made the teaching spaces I've been blessed to be
50:28
Speaker 2: in my whole life. Sacred inquiries of friendship, and so
50:37
Speaker 2: that brings me you know, this is a wonderful historical
50:40
Speaker 2: foundation of that. You know, it's interesting that we think
50:45
Speaker 2: of academia and things being academic as being entirely intellectual
50:51
Speaker 2: and removed from life. Well, I want to go back
50:53
Speaker 2: to the root of the word academy because it does
50:57
Speaker 2: have to do with spiritual friendship. And this was all
51:00
Speaker 2: the way back to Plato, and Plato's original school was
51:06
Speaker 2: called the academy. Well, he didn't have a formal school,
51:09
Speaker 2: he didn't have a building. He was this guy talking
51:13
Speaker 2: like you and me about the deeper questions of life
51:16
Speaker 2: and what it means to be here. And there was
51:19
Speaker 2: a small group of people who found that meaningful and
51:22
Speaker 2: they would walk around and talk. Well, when Plato was
51:26
Speaker 2: thirty three, he had a rich uncle die who left
51:29
Speaker 2: him an olive grove, and since they didn't have any
51:33
Speaker 2: place to he didn't have any place to go with
51:35
Speaker 2: his students, he said, hey, let's hang out in the
51:38
Speaker 2: olive grove. I got an olive grove now. So they
51:41
Speaker 2: would walk and talk about what it means to be
51:44
Speaker 2: alive in the olive grove. And in ancient Greek language,
51:50
Speaker 2: the word academy means sacred grove, and friendship is that
51:56
Speaker 2: sacred grove where we walked together discussing, comparing notes, supporting
52:03
Speaker 2: each other on what it means to be here and
52:06
Speaker 2: how do we practice being alive and loving and caring.
52:11
Speaker 2: So that's the real route. We each have a sacred
52:16
Speaker 2: grove within us and between us, and it might be family,
52:20
Speaker 2: and our family might be our friends, but they center
52:24
Speaker 2: on that sacred commitment to support each other in the
52:29
Speaker 2: deepest ways of living.
52:32
Speaker 1: And the academy experience be replicated today having dinner at
52:36
Speaker 1: an olive garden.
52:38
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it can happen anywhere that we walk in tenderness
52:45
Speaker 2: and honesty, entertaining together the sacred questions that have no answers,
52:53
Speaker 2: but that help us live.
52:55
Speaker 1: And speaking of help us live, how does friendship come
52:59
Speaker 1: into play in a world that's experiencing great divisiveness, frustration,
53:04
Speaker 1: and anger.
53:06
Speaker 2: Well, I think that, and so let's back up a
53:08
Speaker 2: second here. I think that's all true. But I also
53:11
Speaker 2: think that every age we have different details, but every
53:17
Speaker 2: age has its divisiveness. It's cruelty, and every person and
53:25
Speaker 2: every age is challenged to choose love over fear. To
53:30
Speaker 2: choose listening over shouting, to choose compassion over cruelty. And
53:36
Speaker 2: it's our turn. And I think the perennial challenges for
53:42
Speaker 2: all of us are all the things we've been talking about.
53:44
Speaker 2: How do we see what's there but still open our heart.
53:49
Speaker 2: How do we listen and not enable cruelty? How do
53:54
Speaker 2: we stand and act? You know, I think that if
53:59
Speaker 2: you look at at the world, you know, if you
54:03
Speaker 2: look at humanity as a global body, every soul is
54:08
Speaker 2: a cell in that body. And so in addition to
54:12
Speaker 2: addressing particular problems, every time we have a conversation like this,
54:17
Speaker 2: every time we're true, every time we serve, every time
54:22
Speaker 2: we give, we are, we're helping there be more healthy
54:30
Speaker 2: cells in the global body than toxic.
54:34
Speaker 1: There's a wonderful expression in parts of Africa, different iterations,
54:38
Speaker 1: but the basic word is ubuntu and it translates as
54:42
Speaker 1: I am because we are. It truly is the essence
54:45
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about.
54:46
Speaker 2: Yes, that's beautiful, thank you. Absolutely. And the Jewish, I'm
54:51
Speaker 2: sure you know the Jewish ethic of takanolam, which means
54:55
Speaker 2: healing the world, to repair the world. But I believe
55:00
Speaker 2: like we can't repair the world if we don't repair ourselves.
55:05
Speaker 2: So the first step to repairing the world. And you know,
55:07
Speaker 2: and there's just one more quote I'll offer, which is
55:11
Speaker 2: from Ramana Maharshi, the great Hindu sage, who said, and
55:14
Speaker 2: this shows the inextricable link between inner work and service.
55:19
Speaker 2: He said, to try to save the world without liberating
55:24
Speaker 2: yourself first is like carpeting the earth rather than we
55:29
Speaker 2: hearing sandals.
55:31
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, I have to say that my new
55:34
Speaker 1: definition of heaven would be sitting on a cloud somewhere
55:37
Speaker 1: having a NonStop conversation with mister Mark Nepo. This has
55:41
Speaker 1: been absolutely wonderful. Thank you. That's been a joy. Mark,
55:47
Speaker 1: please hear with our listeners again where they can get
55:49
Speaker 1: all of your wonderful books and works and find out
55:52
Speaker 1: more about you.
55:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. So my website Marknepo dot com has
55:58
Speaker 2: everything about where I'm teaching all my books. You can
56:02
Speaker 2: find my books really anywhere on Amazon or Barnes and
56:04
Speaker 2: Noble or different places. And I and live dot Martnpo
56:09
Speaker 2: dot com is where my uh you can register for
56:12
Speaker 2: my webinars.
56:14
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on Destination Unlimited. I'm
56:17
Speaker 1: a victor the voice Furman have a wonderful week.
56:23
Speaker 2: M m m m