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FBI TEARS APART Idaho 'Murder House,' Victim's Mom Defends Daughter · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greasee.
0:14
Speaker 2: Why is the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation tearing
0:20
Speaker 2: apart the crime scene of the Idaho for sleigh.
0:26
Speaker 3: Why is that happening? Why is the.
0:28
Speaker 2: FBI out in Idaho tearing up carpet, looking at the walls,
0:35
Speaker 2: looking at the windows, taking pieces of board.
0:38
Speaker 3: What are they doing this?
0:41
Speaker 2: As Brian Coberger, the doctoral student charged in the sleighing
0:46
Speaker 2: of four beautiful University of Idaho students in their sleep
0:51
Speaker 2: or half sleep in the middle of the night the wee.
0:54
Speaker 3: Early morning around four a m.
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Speaker 2: While he sits in his cell get a special vegan diet,
1:01
Speaker 2: watching whatever he wants. He has control of his remote
1:05
Speaker 2: on TV and gathering female admirers on the Internet. What's happening?
1:13
Speaker 2: When is Brian Coberger going to trial? And is the
1:17
Speaker 2: death penalty still on the table? I mean to see, Grace.
1:20
Speaker 3: This is Crime Stories.
1:22
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
1:24
Speaker 2: and on Serious XM one eleven.
1:27
Speaker 3: First of all, let's kick it off.
1:28
Speaker 2: We've got an all star panel to make sense of
1:30
Speaker 2: what we're learning right now. But listen first to victim
1:36
Speaker 2: Xanna Kernodle's mother.
1:38
Speaker 4: There are things like in the investigation that I would
1:41
Speaker 4: live like to see go differently. I would have liked
1:43
Speaker 4: to see. I would like to see more coming from
1:48
Speaker 4: the kids that attended school there, the people that were
1:50
Speaker 4: at the Sprat party, the fraternity members, what were they
1:57
Speaker 4: all doing, What was happening at the party before where
2:01
Speaker 4: they came home. I really just want and anybody who
2:08
Speaker 4: was at the drub truck with Kaylee and Maddie or
2:11
Speaker 4: at the bar with Kaylee and Mattie, I would like
2:15
Speaker 4: to see. I would like to see answers coming from
2:18
Speaker 4: from those people. It just it kind of bewilders me
2:24
Speaker 4: that we haven't heard anything from any of them, because
2:26
Speaker 4: they were the last people to see these kids alive.
2:29
Speaker 2: And I've got such an incredible panel joining us right now,
2:33
Speaker 2: but I want to go first to Jane Fisher, former
2:37
Speaker 2: chief Deputy prosecutor.
2:39
Speaker 3: And boys the Idaho.
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Speaker 1: Idaho is this.
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Speaker 2: Jurisdiction where the sleighs, the four murders went down. She
2:46
Speaker 2: specialized in murder and you can find her today at
2:50
Speaker 2: Building Hope Today dot Org.
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Speaker 3: Jane, you're hearing Xana.
2:55
Speaker 2: Cernoll's mother who has lived through complete hell. Jane, I
3:00
Speaker 2: thought I knew it all about grief and suffering when
3:03
Speaker 2: my fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding, But now
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Speaker 2: that I have the twins, John, David and Lucy, I
3:08
Speaker 2: didn't know anything because the worst possible thing that could
3:12
Speaker 2: happen is to lose your child. I'm sure about that, Jane.
3:19
Speaker 2: You hear the mom. You hear Xana Cronole's mom talking
3:23
Speaker 2: about things that she would like to have seen done
3:25
Speaker 2: differently in this investigation. This is Carrie Northington, and she's
3:30
Speaker 2: focusing on the parties leading up to the murders that night,
3:35
Speaker 2: the fraternity sorority parties.
3:37
Speaker 3: We know that.
3:39
Speaker 2: Several of the four were at a food truck really
3:42
Speaker 2: really late at night, like after one am. They stopped
3:46
Speaker 2: to get food at a food truck before they went home.
3:49
Speaker 2: Have you in your practice, Jane, talked to victims parents
3:55
Speaker 2: and you listen to what they're saying and it may
3:57
Speaker 2: or may not be relevant to the case. Like the
4:00
Speaker 2: DNA shows that Brian Coburger handled the murder weapon and
4:07
Speaker 2: the sheath because the she that's his DNA on it,
4:11
Speaker 2: and it's practically under one of the dead victims. So
4:15
Speaker 2: maybe what Xenna's mother is saying is irrelevant. Maybe it
4:21
Speaker 2: doesn't matter who was at the party five hours before,
4:25
Speaker 2: who was at the food truck three hours before. On
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Speaker 2: the other hand, Jean, maybe it does matter because Xenna's
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Speaker 2: mother thinks two people are involved.
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Speaker 3: I don't she does, but I find the significance.
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Speaker 2: Gene, What if Coburger was lurking around either of those
4:45
Speaker 2: two places, wouldn't that solidify the case for the state?
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Speaker 5: Yeah?
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Speaker 6: I mean I really feel for her, for the parents,
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Speaker 6: for the survivors in this and the common it's so
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Speaker 6: common and to have parents victims asking some of these
5:05
Speaker 6: other questions and wanting to know exactly what she's asking,
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Speaker 6: Who was at the party, who was at the food truck,
5:11
Speaker 6: those sorts of things, because because what's happened is unimaginable
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Speaker 6: and you just want all the answers and everything that
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Speaker 6: you possibly can to understand how this could have happened.
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Speaker 7: Now, as you said, some of that stuff is irrelevant,
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Speaker 7: It isn't as though it's certainly not here and not nationwide.
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Speaker 7: Have just seen there hasn't been substantial amount of reporting
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Speaker 7: on this of law enforcement in the Moscow community. You know,
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Speaker 7: the photos of the girls at the food truck trying
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Speaker 7: to find everybody and anybody who talked to them, and
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Speaker 7: they did do some follow up, as you recall. You know,
5:55
Speaker 7: they did have a well law. Yeah, and they thought
5:58
Speaker 7: that they had you know, the I think it was
6:00
Speaker 7: the uber driver, Yep, that that was a suspect, And
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Speaker 7: I mean they did do a lot of that.
6:06
Speaker 2: You're right, And how do you deal with victims' families?
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Speaker 2: I mean, for you and I, we think that is
6:14
Speaker 2: irrelevant because we believe we know who the killer is
6:17
Speaker 2: and it's not the guy at the food truck, and
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Speaker 2: it's not some drunk frat boy at the whatever house,
6:23
Speaker 2: the Sigma Kai house or whatever house it was. But
6:27
Speaker 2: she's right, we have to exhaust as prosecutors every single avenue.
6:33
Speaker 2: What if someone at that part of your food truck
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Speaker 2: saw Coburger? What if they were connected to Coburger somehow?
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Speaker 2: So I understand where the mother is coming from. I
6:44
Speaker 2: completely understand as a layperson, especially that it's not in
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Speaker 2: the investigation every single day.
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Speaker 3: She thinks, hey is irrelevance, and maybe there is as
6:53
Speaker 3: of right now, there's not.
6:54
Speaker 2: But you hear Xenna's mother speaking at and later I'm
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Speaker 2: going to let you in on her statements regard she
7:00
Speaker 2: thinks that there is another person involved. A lot's happening
7:07
Speaker 2: in the case against Brian Coberger right now.
7:10
Speaker 3: First of all, there has been a.
7:13
Speaker 2: Very powerful motion to dismiss the indictment, in other words,
7:18
Speaker 2: throw out the charges. And the judge, whose name coincidentally
7:24
Speaker 2: is Judge, is John Judge, so he's judge Judge.
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Speaker 3: That's it.
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Speaker 2: I want you to hear what the judge says about
7:33
Speaker 2: the defense's slew of arguments to.
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Speaker 3: Have these charges thrown out. Listen, the Idahole.
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Speaker 8: Criminal Rules, specifically Rules six point five A expressly states
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Speaker 8: that probable cause is the standard not beyond a reasonable
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Speaker 8: doubt for a grand jury's indictment.
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Speaker 9: And I think I have three or four research because
8:00
Speaker 9: this argument has been circulating in the state. I think
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Speaker 9: I've had three or four district judge decisions denying the
8:11
Speaker 9: motion any here. So I am going to deny the argument.
8:19
Speaker 2: Who Okay, Look, we may think that there was no
8:23
Speaker 2: grounds for the charges to be thrown out, but you
8:27
Speaker 2: get one crackpot judge up on.
8:30
Speaker 3: The bench, you don't know what they're going to do.
8:33
Speaker 2: I have had judges well, one of the times I
8:36
Speaker 2: was held in contempt the judge was completely ruling against
8:40
Speaker 2: all the black and white letter of the law. And
8:43
Speaker 2: I said, and his name was Judge Presley.
8:46
Speaker 3: May he rest in peace.
8:47
Speaker 2: So Judge Presley, just turn around and right behind you
8:52
Speaker 2: is a bookshelf, and all that bookshelf is the OCGA,
8:56
Speaker 2: the Official Code of Georgia annotated the code. But the
9:01
Speaker 2: annotation is all the case law supporting the law and
9:04
Speaker 2: the interpretation law. If you would just swivel your chair
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Speaker 2: around and grab OCGA thirty blaw desk blaw and local page.
9:12
Speaker 3: Three fifty six, you will see that.
9:14
Speaker 2: You're really it's completely contradictory to the law. I was
9:18
Speaker 2: held in contempt, but I was right. It didn't feel
9:21
Speaker 2: very good saying I'm right when I was getting fingerprinted.
9:24
Speaker 2: But you never know what a judge is going to do.
9:28
Speaker 2: This judge did the right thing. What were the claims?
9:31
Speaker 2: The defense was mounting and they had a lot of claims.
9:35
Speaker 10: Listen hours of arguments between Coburger's lawyers, the prosecution, and
9:39
Speaker 10: the judge have occurred in private, behind closed doors without cameras,
9:44
Speaker 10: but in court papers, Brian Coberger's defense team claims the
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Speaker 10: grand jury was biased there was insufficient evidence to charge
9:52
Speaker 10: Coburger in the first place, and that prosecutors withheld evidence
9:56
Speaker 10: that would exonerate Coburger. Well, the defense has made these
10:00
Speaker 10: serious allegations, they have yet to show any of the
10:03
Speaker 10: evidence to back up their claims.
10:17
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Greece.
10:21
Speaker 2: Joining me right now, an expert who has been at
10:25
Speaker 2: the scene of the crime along with me. In fact,
10:28
Speaker 2: he showed me, he directed me to a lot of
10:31
Speaker 2: points of interest. And I don't mean like I'm looking
10:35
Speaker 2: at Niagara Falls that kind of point of interest. I mean,
10:40
Speaker 2: look at this. This proves X. Look at that, that
10:43
Speaker 2: proves why drive this route? Not that route? Look over here,
10:50
Speaker 2: not over there. That's what I'm talking about. Chris mcdonnah
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Speaker 2: is with me, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former
10:57
Speaker 2: homicide detective, at least three hundred sides under his belt,
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Speaker 2: host of a YouTube channel where I found him the
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Speaker 2: interview room. Chris McDonough how upsetting you know? It never
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Speaker 2: failed to upset me when the defense would claim, oh,
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Speaker 2: she's withholding evidence. But I had handed over my whole
11:15
Speaker 2: file except for my own work product, my notes, my questions,
11:19
Speaker 2: my own theories. But yet that argument would still be made.
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Speaker 2: And it's a black eye for you, the homicide investigator
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Speaker 2: and the prosecutor, because it looks like you're playing dirty
11:32
Speaker 2: pool that you're going to win through nefarious means, and
11:36
Speaker 2: that's no win at all because it'll be reversed on appeal.
11:40
Speaker 2: We really take the punches in the gut.
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Speaker 5: Don't we, Nancy. And one of the worst things that
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Speaker 5: could ever happen, to your point, is a rogue judge
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Speaker 5: taking all of these all of these points of the
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Speaker 5: law into consideration and even giving them of that you'd wait,
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Speaker 5: I mean, it's every family's nightmare, it's every prosecutor's nightmare,
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Speaker 5: the investigator, public safety's nightmare that the defense is able
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Speaker 5: to say, hey, they still are not giving us evidence
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Speaker 5: when in fact, you know, they've turned over all the
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Speaker 5: evidence under Brady to.
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Speaker 11: The defense and they know what they have.
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Speaker 5: It's right in front of them. And you know, I
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Speaker 5: think this is the big push that's taking place right now,
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Speaker 5: and we're just going to, you know, like always, just
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Speaker 5: see how this kind of plays out here.
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Speaker 2: Well, bottom line, you don't sign up to be a
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Speaker 2: homicide investigator or a prosecutor to win miscongeniality. Chris McDonough,
12:45
Speaker 2: nobody's going to go home, Crown mis sweet with Tita.
12:48
Speaker 2: That's not happening. We are going to take the hits
12:52
Speaker 2: and keep ongoing. I mean, listen, if I paid attention
12:56
Speaker 2: to everything that said about me or our program on
12:59
Speaker 2: to enter and Facebook and instant, wherever I'd be hiding
13:03
Speaker 2: under the bed right now. Just if you don't have
13:07
Speaker 2: a thick skin, you better develop one and quickly.
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Speaker 3: Guys.
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Speaker 2: Not only in the last days has the judge denied
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Speaker 2: the defense motion to throw out the charges. The FBI
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Speaker 2: has been back at the murder scene. Some call it
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Speaker 2: the murder house, it's the crime scene. The FBI has
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Speaker 2: been back sniffing around and tearing apart sections of the home,
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Speaker 2: including yanking up carpet and more.
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Speaker 3: Take a listen to our friends at crime Online.
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Speaker 10: FBI agents have entered the King Rode home in Moscow, Idaho,
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Speaker 10: hoping to gain more information as the prosecution prepares for trial.
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Speaker 10: According to NBC News, the University of Idaho says investigators
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Speaker 10: ask to go back into the home and gather documentation
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Speaker 10: as they construct visual and audio exhibits, as well as
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Speaker 10: a physical model of the home. Experts say this will
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Speaker 10: help as the prosecution explains where evidence was found and
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Speaker 10: why the placement has said evidence is important. Families of
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Speaker 10: the victims have worked hard to prevent the King Road
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Speaker 10: structure from being torn down as was originally planned. The
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Speaker 10: family of Kaali Gonzavez and the father of Xanikernodle said
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Speaker 10: they were grateful the university is waiting until after the
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Speaker 10: trial to demolish the home because it remains the biggest
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Speaker 10: piece of evidence.
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Speaker 2: I want to circle back to doctor Angela arnold A
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Speaker 2: renounced psychiatrists joining us about that why the victims' families may.
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Speaker 3: Not want this home torn down.
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Speaker 2: But first I want to talk about something that I understand,
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Speaker 2: and that is the probit of value of this home.
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Speaker 3: Do we still need the home? Why do we need
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Speaker 3: the home?
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Speaker 12: What?
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Speaker 2: If anything can it proves been combed over with a
14:42
Speaker 2: fine tooth comb, So why do I care that it's
14:46
Speaker 2: not torn down? Well, for one reason, correct me if
14:48
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, Joining me. Dave Matt Crime online dot Com
14:51
Speaker 2: investigative reporter. The house was to be demolished, but that's
14:55
Speaker 2: been delayed, especially since Coburger waived his right to his
15:00
Speaker 2: speed trial. Now this delay, I believe has allowed prosecutors
15:06
Speaker 2: and investigators to create a very detailed three D model
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Speaker 2: of the home, and that could potentially spared your rs
15:16
Speaker 2: a visit to the crime scene that was left literally
15:19
Speaker 2: quote dripping in blood. You know what, I would want
15:23
Speaker 2: them at the crime scene, but that's just me. I
15:25
Speaker 2: would want them to see the real thing. But I
15:28
Speaker 2: would also like, Dave Mac that three D visual in
15:32
Speaker 2: court for me to use those demonstrative purposes.
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Speaker 3: That's in the law.
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Speaker 2: You've got demonstrative evidence and you've got, as I call it,
15:40
Speaker 2: real evidence. Real evidence is like fingerprints, DNA things taken
15:44
Speaker 2: from the scene. Demonstrative evidence is evidence you create to
15:48
Speaker 2: demonstrate something to the jury. Dave Mac, tell me about
15:53
Speaker 2: why is the FBI sniffing around the King Road address.
15:58
Speaker 10: Well, Nancy, they're building, as you mentioned, the models, Okay,
16:02
Speaker 10: the three D model, and the real issue here is
16:05
Speaker 10: it's a three story house on King Rhad and for
16:09
Speaker 10: some people, including Vanikernodo's mom, they just don't see how
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Speaker 10: one person can accomplish all that happened, stabbing to death
16:18
Speaker 10: four people in that building in a very brief period
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Speaker 10: of time. What the FBI is doing by building this model,
16:24
Speaker 10: they're going to be able to walk the prosecution be
16:26
Speaker 10: able to walk the jurors through it one by one
16:29
Speaker 10: and show them how it could be done and was
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Speaker 10: done by one person they believe, Brian Koberger. They'll be
16:35
Speaker 10: able to show them with that model exactly where he
16:38
Speaker 10: came in, where he went, the timetable they built inside
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Speaker 10: the house, and how he exited.
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Speaker 6: They'll be able to do.
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Speaker 11: All that with this three D model.
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Speaker 10: That's why they're there.
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Speaker 2: That's going to be some three D model because you
16:51
Speaker 2: know what the defense is probably going to do.
16:53
Speaker 3: The defense is probably.
16:54
Speaker 2: Going to turn around and ask to take the jarrs
16:57
Speaker 2: to the crime scene and so help me. I would
17:00
Speaker 2: not be trumped by the defense. If anybody was going
17:03
Speaker 2: to demand a visit to the crime scene, it would
17:06
Speaker 2: be me, the prosecutor. And you know why, because I
17:09
Speaker 2: will want the defense to be able to argue in
17:12
Speaker 2: closing arguments. They didn't want you to see the crime scene.
17:15
Speaker 3: We did. What were they hiding? No? No, no, and no?
17:21
Speaker 3: Who's that jumping in? It was Jean Jeane Fisher, Yeah,
17:25
Speaker 3: jump in.
17:25
Speaker 6: Well you have to remember too, I don't I really
17:29
Speaker 6: don't believe that this case is going to take place
17:32
Speaker 6: in Letah County, in the small community in Moscow, Idaho.
17:35
Speaker 6: Boise is three hundred miles south and six hours on
17:39
Speaker 6: the mountain road. Idaho Falls, which is maybe the next biggest,
17:46
Speaker 6: is ten hours north of quarterly north of Moscow's Quartelaine
17:52
Speaker 6: Coutney County. It's quite small, So I mean there are
17:56
Speaker 6: there are some of those issues as well, quite frankly,
17:58
Speaker 6: as well as far as the crime and getting back
18:01
Speaker 6: up there and what that actually would entail.
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Speaker 3: Okay, let me ask you a lightning round.
18:06
Speaker 2: Has the venue been changed yet, Jeane Fisher?
18:10
Speaker 6: No, because they still haven't set the keys for trial.
18:13
Speaker 3: Is there a motion to change venue? There won't be.
18:16
Speaker 2: One until the case get set the trial, so no,
18:19
Speaker 2: so let's burn that bridge when we get there. But
18:22
Speaker 2: you're right, if the trial is moved, say five hours away,
18:26
Speaker 2: it would not be expedient to take the jury five
18:30
Speaker 2: hours away to see the crime scene.
18:31
Speaker 3: That is why I predict if they do get.
18:34
Speaker 2: Emotion to change venue, it will be moved maybe three
18:38
Speaker 2: hours or less the way so the jury can go
18:40
Speaker 2: see it in one day and return. Now, of course,
18:44
Speaker 2: we learned that visiting a crime scene is fraught with
18:48
Speaker 2: danger and reversible error because when you see the crime
18:53
Speaker 2: scene it's not the same as it was the day
18:55
Speaker 2: of the crimes. Number one that can be argued on appeal.
18:59
Speaker 2: You don't know if somebody will be standing outside. How
19:03
Speaker 2: easy would it be for some jackass to yell.
19:07
Speaker 13: Out Coburger did it, or Coburger's innocent or something, and
19:11
Speaker 13: that could ruin the whole case and be grounds for
19:14
Speaker 13: emotion to dismiss the case and get a.
19:18
Speaker 3: Whole new jury.
19:19
Speaker 2: So when you take people to a crime scene, you
19:22
Speaker 2: never know what's going to happen. And dare I remind
19:25
Speaker 2: everybody on the panel. When my colleague Johnny Cochran May
19:30
Speaker 2: he Rest in Peace, took the OJ Simpson jury to
19:35
Speaker 2: the OJ Simpson home and they had completely done it over.
19:40
Speaker 2: No more pictures of OJ with busty models around. There
19:44
Speaker 2: were pictures instead of a Norman Rockwell painting and him
19:47
Speaker 2: with his mother, and I think a giant cross was
19:50
Speaker 2: put up on the wall. You don't know how that
19:52
Speaker 2: scene is going to be altered by the time the
19:54
Speaker 2: jury gets there. So doctor Angela Arnold joining me as
19:57
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, a renowned psychiatristy and find her at
20:00
Speaker 2: angel Arnold MB dot com. Doctor Angie, there may be
20:04
Speaker 2: more at play with the victims' families not wanting the
20:09
Speaker 2: home to be torn down. Now, as I've told you before,
20:14
Speaker 2: I have never once sought out the spot where my
20:17
Speaker 2: fiance was murdered. I don't want to go there. Whenever
20:20
Speaker 2: I think about it, sometimes it still gives me a horrible,
20:23
Speaker 2: horrible you like a migraine headache, and I don't want
20:29
Speaker 2: to go there. I don't want that in my head.
20:31
Speaker 2: With everything else, but the significance of this home, I
20:37
Speaker 2: don't know what it means to the four victims families.
20:39
Speaker 14: Well, Nancy, right now it stands as a sort of
20:44
Speaker 14: a shrine to what happened, and this is this isn't over.
20:49
Speaker 14: I mean, the trial hasn't even started yet, and I
20:52
Speaker 14: imagine what it signifies to the family. Is this, If
20:56
Speaker 14: the house is torn down and demolished, it's over where
21:01
Speaker 14: this happened, is over, like it never happened exactly, and
21:05
Speaker 14: the man hasn't even been brought to trial. I mean,
21:08
Speaker 14: I find it very disturbing that they want to tear
21:10
Speaker 14: the house down, but you don't. There also doesn't need
21:14
Speaker 14: to be a jump that goes from let's not tear
21:17
Speaker 14: the house down to oh, we're going to bring the
21:19
Speaker 14: jury there, but I think the house needs to stand
21:23
Speaker 14: as the place where this happened.
21:26
Speaker 2: Chris, Chris mcdonna, you're saying you agree, and doctor Angie,
21:30
Speaker 2: I can't explain to you why I don't want the
21:33
Speaker 2: house torn down yet maybe something along the lines of
21:37
Speaker 2: it make it as if it never happened or plus
21:42
Speaker 2: I mean to you, Chris mcdona, Director Call Case Foundation.
21:46
Speaker 2: I'm going to circle back to doctor Monty Miller and
21:47
Speaker 2: doctor Michelle dupre joining us.
21:50
Speaker 3: Chris.
21:51
Speaker 2: It ain't over until it's over, and I don't want
21:55
Speaker 2: any destruction of evidence until this thing is over.
21:59
Speaker 5: Yes, I think what's happening right now, Nancy, there is
22:02
Speaker 5: why the FBI went back. Let's just talk about a
22:05
Speaker 5: couple of things real fast. Is one, you know they're
22:08
Speaker 5: doing a laser recreation right to create these three D
22:11
Speaker 5: model and that's called a firo Faro. That's the device
22:15
Speaker 5: that they use.
22:16
Speaker 2: Well, you just like, all right, explain that place. I'll
22:19
Speaker 2: just throw something out and drop it on as like
22:22
Speaker 2: a bomb and not explain it.
22:23
Speaker 11: That's sorry about that.
22:24
Speaker 5: Well, what this device does is it spins in a
22:27
Speaker 5: room and it can literally go down to an exact
22:32
Speaker 5: you know, dimension, within an eighth of an inch, and
22:36
Speaker 5: so it'll basically mirror everything withinside of that room. But
22:41
Speaker 5: the other test that they're running in there, I would
22:43
Speaker 5: assume is an acoustics test, and they're going to correlate
22:48
Speaker 5: that back to any video that may have been in
22:51
Speaker 5: the neighborhood, if there is sound on that video, and
22:54
Speaker 5: they're going to correlate that to the exact spot of
22:57
Speaker 5: where that sound would have originated of that house. So
23:01
Speaker 5: to tear that house down right now. To Doctor's point,
23:05
Speaker 5: and I know you talked about this early on, I
23:08
Speaker 5: think that would be a very huge mistake ultimately until
23:13
Speaker 5: the trial is completed, and at that point, you know,
23:16
Speaker 5: let it be what it needs to be.
23:18
Speaker 2: I know the state thinks they've gotten everything that they need,
23:21
Speaker 2: and the defense has had the same opportunity.
23:23
Speaker 3: As the state to inspect the home.
23:27
Speaker 2: But I would rather them wait till it's all over.
23:31
Speaker 2: Doctor Monty Miller joining me, director Forensic DNA Expert. You
23:36
Speaker 2: can find doctor Monty at Forensic DNA Experts dot com.
23:41
Speaker 2: Doctor Monty Miller, I believe they've gotten all the DNA
23:45
Speaker 2: evidence that they're going to get. Once you let a
23:48
Speaker 2: lot of people in the home. Evidence is ruined. They've
23:51
Speaker 2: gone through the home and the fine tooth comb. But
23:54
Speaker 2: what is your take on whether they should demolish the home?
23:56
Speaker 11: Well, I mean, just from a crime scene DNA perspective,
24:01
Speaker 11: you wouldn't want to destroy it because you don't know
24:03
Speaker 11: if you're going to need that house again. You know,
24:06
Speaker 11: the defense could raise issues, the prosecution could raise issues,
24:09
Speaker 11: and at this point, you can always go back and
24:11
Speaker 11: look at it once you demolish it. You know you can't,
24:14
Speaker 11: and there's no real benefit to having it destroyed at
24:18
Speaker 11: this point, So why not just keep it till the
24:21
Speaker 11: trial's over.
24:22
Speaker 2: Guys, A lot happening in the case right now, but
24:25
Speaker 2: I want you to hear more. We've had the motion
24:28
Speaker 2: to dismiss by the defense has been denied. We have
24:32
Speaker 2: the FBI swarming the crime scene again. Now listen to this.
24:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I don't want them to not until after
24:41
Speaker 4: the trial. I mean for obvious reasons. I mean obviously
24:45
Speaker 4: the jurors would maybe want to do a walk through,
24:48
Speaker 4: or you know, maybe there's something they missed. I mean obviously. Yeah,
24:54
Speaker 4: I definitely do not want them to tear it down,
24:57
Speaker 4: not yet. Eventually, Yes, but but not until this is
25:01
Speaker 4: all this is all blown over.
25:03
Speaker 2: You're hearing Xana Kernoble's mother, Karen Northington, agreeing with us,
25:07
Speaker 2: don't tear that house down now.
25:10
Speaker 3: Her feelings, I.
25:11
Speaker 2: Don't know if they're based in the evidence of they're
25:13
Speaker 2: based in emotions, but she wants the house standing.
25:17
Speaker 3: Let's move forward. Listen.
25:19
Speaker 10: Brian Coberger's defense team now wants to know exactly how
25:22
Speaker 10: DNA was collected at the crime scene that prosecutors say
25:25
Speaker 10: places Coburger at the scene of the crime. The term
25:28
Speaker 10: IgG stands for investigative genetic genealogy, and it was this
25:32
Speaker 10: process that was used to collect DNA from another source
25:35
Speaker 10: and then match it to the DNA found on the
25:37
Speaker 10: knife sheath that was found on the bed next to
25:40
Speaker 10: the bodies of Kayale Gonzavz and Madison Mogen. The sheath
25:43
Speaker 10: was found face down, partially under Madison Mogan's body and
25:46
Speaker 10: partially under a comforter on the bed. The DNA found
25:49
Speaker 10: on the sheath was initially compared to DNA from trash
25:53
Speaker 10: recovered outside the Coburger family home in Pennsylvania last year.
25:56
Speaker 10: Using IgG allowed investigators to build a family tree of
26:00
Speaker 10: potential relatives of the suspect. Once a cheek swab from
26:03
Speaker 10: Brian Kober was obtained, investigators used a more drag DNA comparison,
26:07
Speaker 10: using technology similar to that employed by services like ancestry,
26:10
Speaker 10: dot com or twenty three and meters.
26:12
Speaker 2: Okay, doctor Manty Miller with us famed DNA expert, Doctor
26:16
Speaker 2: Manti explain and also, if you could give us a
26:19
Speaker 2: dummy down for me, I'm just a trial lawyer, you're
26:23
Speaker 2: the scientist, explain IgG, what are they talking about.
26:28
Speaker 11: So what happens is in criminal investigations and with criminal
26:32
Speaker 11: DNA that's typically used in court, they use one kind
26:36
Speaker 11: of technology to read the DNA, A completely different kind
26:39
Speaker 11: of you know technology is used for the Ancestry, the
26:45
Speaker 11: IgG top type DNA. And so what they did was
26:49
Speaker 11: they took the DNA and they ran it for Ancestry
26:53
Speaker 11: in order to you know, develop the suspects, and they
26:58
Speaker 11: use that to identify Coburger as one of the suspects.
27:03
Speaker 11: Then they collected trash from the house to connect it
27:06
Speaker 11: to Coburger's father and they could tell from that that
27:09
Speaker 11: the DNA. At that point when they identified that it
27:14
Speaker 11: was probably a son of the father, they were able
27:17
Speaker 11: to get DNA from Coburger himself, compare it to the
27:21
Speaker 11: DNA by traditional genetic forensic means, and they were able
27:28
Speaker 11: to identify him that way. So the genetic genealogy, the
27:33
Speaker 11: IgG stuff was used to find him. That's not what
27:36
Speaker 11: was used to identify him as the person in the house.
27:40
Speaker 11: But the same DNA was used, but it was used
27:43
Speaker 11: first for genetic genealogy to find him, and then it
27:46
Speaker 11: was run a separate way, a different time, by different
27:50
Speaker 11: technology to identify him as the source of that DNA.
27:53
Speaker 2: At this juncture, the state is claiming they're not going
27:57
Speaker 2: to use IgG that type of d in a process
28:00
Speaker 2: at trial, but the reality is if the questions are
28:05
Speaker 2: asked on cross it will come into play. To doctor
28:08
Speaker 2: Michelle Dupree joining us a forensic pathologists, medical examiner, former
28:13
Speaker 2: detective and Lexington County author of Money, Mischief and Murder,
28:18
Speaker 2: The murderog Saga the rest of the story, and she
28:22
Speaker 2: literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Dupree.
28:27
Speaker 12: Way in Nancy, you know, I think I understand it
28:31
Speaker 12: sort of from both sides. But keeping the house, especially
28:34
Speaker 12: right now, is so important because things could have been missed,
28:38
Speaker 12: and I think that they need to go back and
28:40
Speaker 12: be able to I would want the jury there. I'm
28:42
Speaker 12: totally with you. I would want the jury to see this.
28:45
Speaker 12: But if you're the defensitory, I guess you wouldn't.
28:47
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think the defense may be able
28:49
Speaker 2: to argue all sorts of things once the jury gets
28:53
Speaker 2: in that home. Big question is a jury going to
28:56
Speaker 2: see the home. A lot of rulings that are going
28:59
Speaker 2: to impact this case are happening right now.
29:01
Speaker 3: Listen.
29:01
Speaker 10: The DNA matching Brian Coberger to the knife sheath could
29:04
Speaker 10: be the prosecution's strongest piece of evidence tying Coburger to
29:07
Speaker 10: the murders. KTVB reports Coburger's lawyers claim they need the
29:12
Speaker 10: information about the DNA collection to help prepare their defense,
29:16
Speaker 10: but the prosecution says they did not use IgG to
29:19
Speaker 10: obtain any warrants and they're concerned about innocent relatives' identities
29:23
Speaker 10: being made public. Judge John Judge said he will consider
29:27
Speaker 10: the interests of the defense and the prosecution as he
29:29
Speaker 10: reviews all of the IgG information the state and the
29:33
Speaker 10: FBI have, and then he will decide what can be disclosed.
29:36
Speaker 2: This is what's happening. The state has used IgG science
29:45
Speaker 2: to narrow down potential suspects. A well established a buckle
29:52
Speaker 2: or buckleschool swab was used to positively identify Brian Coburger.
29:59
Speaker 2: Coburger was all r already identified by his car. Isn't
30:04
Speaker 2: that correct, Dave Matt? So the state could have gone
30:07
Speaker 2: forward without the IgG test at all, based on the
30:13
Speaker 2: car being probable cause right.
30:15
Speaker 10: They were able to track Yes, then you're absolutely right, Nancy.
30:19
Speaker 10: They had other means of going about this, which is
30:22
Speaker 10: what they're pointing out now. They're saying that this IgG
30:25
Speaker 10: stuff is irrelevant. It's not part of our case. It
30:28
Speaker 10: was just a tool, but they had other ways by
30:30
Speaker 10: identifying it. As you mentioned, the car, it is the
30:34
Speaker 10: perfect you know, it actually puts him where he needed
30:37
Speaker 10: to be in terms of what prosecution is looking at.
30:39
Speaker 10: So you're dead on right. They had other ways of
30:42
Speaker 10: going after Coburg or besides the IgG they're using all
30:45
Speaker 10: the tools in the toolbox.
31:00
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
31:04
Speaker 2: Guys, the case is culminating, The case is rapidly moving
31:09
Speaker 2: toward trial.
31:10
Speaker 3: When will the trial date be? We all know.
31:14
Speaker 2: That once the death penalty is announced then the delay
31:19
Speaker 2: will be even longer. Take a listen to our friends
31:23
Speaker 2: at crime Online.
31:24
Speaker 10: The parents of Kaylee Gonzave has recently spoken about the
31:27
Speaker 10: death penalty for the murderer of their daughter and three others.
31:30
Speaker 10: Steve Gonzavez said they wanted the death penalty rather than
31:33
Speaker 10: a life sentence, and he mentioned how BTK Dennist Raider
31:37
Speaker 10: gets special treatment in prison because he's smart he writes
31:40
Speaker 10: papers for other inmates, But a death penalty sentence would
31:44
Speaker 10: put the killer in a cell twenty three hours a
31:47
Speaker 10: day waiting, regardless of how long it takes before there
31:51
Speaker 10: is an execution.
31:52
Speaker 2: In the midst of all of this, one of the victims'
31:55
Speaker 2: mother has been forced into the position of defending her
32:00
Speaker 2: daughter's reputation. How is a beautiful young girl who was
32:05
Speaker 2: murdered half asleep or fully asleep somehow become the target
32:11
Speaker 2: of derision at false rumors? Listen to Kara Northington defending
32:18
Speaker 2: her daughter.
32:19
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of rumors going around that
32:22
Speaker 4: she was a drug dealer or this was somehow like
32:26
Speaker 4: a cartel hit because she owed the cartel money. That's
32:32
Speaker 4: just not true. She wasn't a drug dealer, was going
32:36
Speaker 4: to school, she had a job, she was working, she
32:40
Speaker 4: was doing all the right things. You know, she wasn't
32:43
Speaker 4: She wasn't on drugs or dealing drugs. She did like
32:48
Speaker 4: to party, she was in college. She drank with her
32:51
Speaker 4: friends and party, but it wasn't anything like drug dealing
32:57
Speaker 4: or anything like that. So I think I think those
33:00
Speaker 4: rumors just really those have been Those are what I
33:05
Speaker 4: would say have wronged her.
33:07
Speaker 2: I don't understand it why crime victims as young and
33:11
Speaker 2: innocent as these four are are being dragged through the mud,
33:18
Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold. To top it all off, here you
33:22
Speaker 2: hear the parents of these victims having to defend the
33:27
Speaker 2: reputations of their children. Who are these trolls attacking the victims.
33:32
Speaker 14: I believe that people start rumors for a lot of
33:34
Speaker 14: different reasons, and one of the reasons is so that
33:38
Speaker 14: they can feel like, well, if I have never done that,
33:40
Speaker 14: if I have never participated in that kind of activity,
33:43
Speaker 14: or if my children don't do that, then they're less
33:45
Speaker 14: likely to be murdered. So there's a reason why she
33:49
Speaker 14: was murdered, and that it's just it's the most hideous
33:53
Speaker 14: thing in the world to all of a sudden create
33:56
Speaker 14: a story about a victim.
33:58
Speaker 2: As if this girl is being was murdered because she's
34:03
Speaker 2: part of the cartel of Courssianna had just turned twenty,
34:07
Speaker 2: and she's what connected to a Columbian drug lord.
34:09
Speaker 3: It's insane, And so.
34:11
Speaker 14: What if she parties? Kids are supposed to party when
34:14
Speaker 14: they're in college, and you're supposed to have a good time.
34:17
Speaker 14: And so this girl gets ordered and now people are
34:21
Speaker 14: going to say ugly things about her. Why weren't they
34:23
Speaker 14: saying ugly things about her previous to them if she
34:26
Speaker 14: was such a hideous person.
34:27
Speaker 2: I mean, Chris mcdonnah, you have investigated so many homicide cases.
34:31
Speaker 2: This is straight out of the defense playbook. Attack the victim.
34:34
Speaker 2: Don't look at my client, look at the victim. They're
34:37
Speaker 2: horrible and you could not find any more beautiful and
34:42
Speaker 2: precious college students than these four. So what if she
34:45
Speaker 2: had a couple of drinks. Nobody cares? She was slaughtered
34:50
Speaker 2: in her sleep. Where's this coming from? And isn't it true?
34:54
Speaker 2: You see it in practically every homicide case.
34:57
Speaker 11: Yeah, but I.
34:58
Speaker 5: Think we're at a a different point here, Nancy. I mean,
35:02
Speaker 5: the stability of what's taking place here in our society.
35:09
Speaker 5: This is just an example of it. This poor mother
35:11
Speaker 5: when we hear her heartfelt pleased about defending the reputation
35:16
Speaker 5: of her daughter. What's her crime?
35:19
Speaker 11: Her crime?
35:20
Speaker 5: As she went to bed that night and she was.
35:23
Speaker 11: In her bedroom.
35:25
Speaker 5: And yet this poor mother, and I know that feeling,
35:29
Speaker 5: I know the depth of that feeling, and it's just horrible.
35:33
Speaker 2: Jane Fisher, a veteran trial lawyer. That always happens, is
35:39
Speaker 2: it right now? It's horribly wrong, And it always happens
35:45
Speaker 2: blaming the victim somehow.
35:47
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it happens all the time, but I
35:49
Speaker 6: think in this case it has really I mean it's
35:54
Speaker 6: really bad. I mean, some of the things that have
35:57
Speaker 6: been written in sad about the victims in this case,
36:02
Speaker 6: you know, idea, even the surviving victims. I mean, it's
36:05
Speaker 6: not it's wondering that they're they're they're attacking the victims,
36:08
Speaker 6: but they're also really attacking the surviving victims and coming
36:11
Speaker 6: up with these wild, wild stories. And I think the
36:15
Speaker 6: comment about the lack of stivility really does show a sad,
36:21
Speaker 6: really sad state of where we are right now in
36:24
Speaker 6: our in our in our nation, and quite frankly, I
36:28
Speaker 6: think there's a real lack of stability.
36:29
Speaker 2: As long as I can remember uh, as far back
36:33
Speaker 2: as I can recall trying cases, the victims are always attacked.
36:36
Speaker 2: I don't think it's anything new. It's always happened, and
36:38
Speaker 2: it's always been horrible. Listen to more of Xanna's mother
36:42
Speaker 2: now in the position of having to defend her murdered's daughter.
36:45
Speaker 3: Listen, Oh, Jannah.
36:48
Speaker 4: Jannah was an amazing girl. She was just she was
36:50
Speaker 4: really funny. She was fun to be around. You always
36:54
Speaker 4: made sure everybody around her was having fun. She was
37:00
Speaker 4: just very happy, very happy, go lucky person. She loved
37:05
Speaker 4: her friends, loved her family very much. She's very dedicated
37:10
Speaker 4: to everything she did. She was just an amazing person.
37:13
Speaker 4: She's full of life.
37:14
Speaker 2: I hate that the mother is in this position where
37:17
Speaker 2: she feels like she has to defend her murdered daughter's reputation.
37:21
Speaker 2: Some world class a whole is spreading false rumors about
37:27
Speaker 2: Xana and the other victims and the survivors. But Zanna's
37:31
Speaker 2: mother has.
37:32
Speaker 3: Come up with a very unique theory.
37:34
Speaker 4: Listen to me, it seems like more than one person
37:38
Speaker 4: did this in such a short amount of time, the
37:42
Speaker 4: timeframe that they're getting. There's just no way that one
37:44
Speaker 4: person could have done it. So I think that if
37:48
Speaker 4: he is responsible, if he is, that he had help.
37:52
Speaker 2: So trying to figure out who would that other person be.
37:57
Speaker 2: To doctor Monte Miller, this is why the DNA is
38:00
Speaker 2: so important. No other identifiable persons DNA is at the
38:05
Speaker 2: same other van co workers.
38:07
Speaker 11: Well, I did find some DNA from some other people,
38:10
Speaker 11: but they weren't able to identify it. You know, that
38:13
Speaker 11: was a house that other people were in. It wasn't
38:15
Speaker 11: isolated with just the residents in there, so it's natural
38:19
Speaker 11: that you would find DNA from other people that were
38:22
Speaker 11: in that house, but they weren't able to identify it,
38:26
Speaker 11: so they wouldn't be able to know whether or not
38:32
Speaker 11: some of the other DNA was attached to the crime
38:36
Speaker 11: or whether it was just attached to somebody visiting. That's
38:39
Speaker 11: different with the knife sheath, where that was clearly something
38:42
Speaker 11: that was probably a part of the crime and had
38:47
Speaker 11: the DNA from whoever brought that knife there. The other
38:50
Speaker 11: thing is that I wanted to bring up about the
38:53
Speaker 11: DNA is you know, with the defense wanting the you know,
38:59
Speaker 11: DNA from the ancestry testing. Part of what they may
39:04
Speaker 11: be looking for too, is did they develop any other
39:07
Speaker 11: suspects other than Brian Coberger. So they want to know,
39:11
Speaker 11: you know, do we have any value in that information
39:14
Speaker 11: for us to find somebody else rather than our clients.
39:18
Speaker 11: So there's a lot going on with the DNA here,
39:22
Speaker 11: more than you would think. And they certainly are going
39:25
Speaker 11: to try to identify any of the DNA that they
39:27
Speaker 11: found in that house, but they don't necessarily have a
39:30
Speaker 11: connection to the crime with any of the other DNA.
39:33
Speaker 2: Exactly where the other DNA was found, I believe is
39:37
Speaker 2: nowhere near the dead bodies, but we'll see. And doctor
39:42
Speaker 2: Michelle Dupree forensic pathologists and expert, isn't it true that
39:47
Speaker 2: the wounds on the victims' bodies indicate one type of weapon?
39:53
Speaker 12: Yes, fancy that is true, and we can often tell that,
39:56
Speaker 12: of course by the wounds themselves.
39:58
Speaker 3: How do you do that with knife ones?
40:00
Speaker 2: This is very critical because it's right to question the evidence.
40:04
Speaker 2: Xanna's mother's correct. You've got to test every piece of evidence,
40:09
Speaker 2: see what it proves or disproves. And she should wonder
40:13
Speaker 2: was there more than one person? As far as I
40:15
Speaker 2: can evaluate the evidence and analyze it, it seems like
40:18
Speaker 2: there's one person. Yeah, But you have to test the evidence.
40:22
Speaker 3: So what do the wounds prove.
40:24
Speaker 12: If anything, Well, we measure them. We measure the wounds,
40:27
Speaker 12: and then we can actually make a cast or a
40:30
Speaker 12: mold of the wounds many times, and then we can
40:32
Speaker 12: compare that to a cast made from the actual weapon itself,
40:35
Speaker 12: and they are very similar or similar enough that we
40:38
Speaker 12: can say that that is the same weapon.
40:40
Speaker 2: Justice moves forward as we wait for the trial of
40:44
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger.
40:47
Speaker 3: Goodbye friends,