Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 755: How to Write for CSI Vegas, NCSI & Law & Order SVU with Jennifer Dornbush

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IFH 755: How to Write for CSI Vegas, NCSI & Law & Order SVU with Jennifer Dornbush · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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Podcast, Episode number seven fifty five. Everybody wants to be great until it's
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The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If
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That's film bizbook dot com. Now today on the show, we have
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author Jennifer Dornbush and she has written the book Forensic Speak, How to Write
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Realistic crime Dramas. This book really unlocks the secrets of forensic science for screenwriters
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and she is an expert in all things forensics and her story on how she
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was raised by a dad who was a corodner and she was kind of playing
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with body parts when she was a kid and all sorts of incredible things.
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But she has written the definitive book on forensics dialogue and talk and terms,
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and she has consulted on major movies and TV shows, helping them bring realistic
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dialogue and realistic situations to crime scene investigators and anything having to do with a
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dead body or murder or things like that. Let's just put it that way.
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But it's something that really I've never really heard of before, and I
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think it's something that a lot of screenwriters who are writing crime features or television
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shows, or procedural cop shows or things like that, detective stories, all
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those kind of stories really could benefit from it. So that's why I invited
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her on the show, so Canrie could really talk forensic speak. So,
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without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Jennifer dorn Bush. I
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like to welcome to the show, Jennifer dorn Bush. How are you doing,
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Jennifer very well today, How are you good? Good? Thank you
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so much. You are the first author I've had. We're gonna talk all
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things forensics, and it is. It is a niche of a niche of
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a niche, and it's actually really important considering the popularity of crime dramas and
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crime feature films and TV shows. GEZ TV shows. Can you read TV
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shows? There's so many, and I mean just on Law and Order alone,
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Like I think there's three lifetimes. We would have to live to watch
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all of the Law and Orders, every episode of every series. Don't even
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get me stared. And the NCIS n CIS CSIS. I mean for like
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like multiple lifetimes. We'll have to get reincarnated many times to come back to
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watch all of those shows. So I want to have you in the show
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because I think it's something that nobody really does talk about very often. I
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guess that's one of the reasons why you wrote your book, And it is
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something that I've seen in scripts that I've read and TV shows I've seen.
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They're like, oh, that doesn't it doesn't sound good, even even someone
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as you know, someone like myself who's not an expert, but I've watched
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a lot of those shows over the years that you start to pick up certain
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rhythms in the dialogue and certain rhythms in well, that doesn't make any sense.
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That DNA situation's not working. They're like, you can't get DNA from
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that, can you? Like, So we're going to get into all of
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that. But before we get started. How did you get into the business
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in the first place, the business of both I would love to know.
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I like to like to know forensics and film and television. And then how
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do did you bring the two together? Yes, they do have e merging
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story. So I was I will start with forensics. I was born into
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it. I was born into the world of forensics, so I had no
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choice. So you were born in amy, got it? Got it exactly,
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exactly? That would make a good story. Uh. My father was
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a medical examiner for three counties in northern Michigan and the office was in our
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house. So yes, literally, now the autopsies were done at the hospital,
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but everything else came to our house. Tissue samples, blood samples,
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files, detectives, victims, families, morticians always knocking on our door.
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Video you know, there were always like a set of like there's always like
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a death certificate on the kitchen table next to the you know, cast roll
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or whatever, or pictures from the latest you know investigation. And my mom
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would be like, can you move those? Can you get those off the
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table? It's dinner time now. So I did my first case when I
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was eight, my first death investigation, investigation, and I just I grew
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up around it, so I didn't really I didn't think it was weird until
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I became a teenager, and then you get kind of self conscious and you're
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like, wait, nobody else's dad does this. Like you guys don't have
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like livers in your freezer. I don't get it any human livers. Yes,
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it sounds very like Hannibal Lecter, but it was. It was very
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interesting because my father's very scientific and he's also very much a teacher, and
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so everything was a lesson. Everything was a lesson in anatomy biology life.
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And my mother, she worked the business. She was sort of the bookkeeper,
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the office manager, kept track of all the records. When people came
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to the house looking for a certificate, she would talk to them and give
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them what they needed. So it was just it was just how I lived.
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So when I grew up and went off to college and tried to figure
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out what am I going to do with my life? I always knew kind
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of running away from the dead bodies. I always knew that I wanted to
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be a writer, and it took me a while to kind of figure out
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the path. I did journalism, I did public relations, I did a
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lot of different things with my writing until I finally was like, the thing
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I really want to do is write for the masses. And so I started
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to take screenwriting classes, started to learn film and television writing. And as
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you know, when you when you start to become a creative person, especially
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a writer, a content creator, whatever that is, director, producer,
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You're like, what is it I have to bring to the world, Like,
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what do I want to talk about? What do I know about?
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What makes me different in my storytelling? Excuse me? That is going to
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kind of make me stand out, because as you know, Hollywood is ultra
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competitive, and it's not enough to be a good writer. You have to
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have that thing that makes you stand out. And I really did not put
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this together my background and my writing for a very long time, and so
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other people were kind of starting to point it out and they're like, Jennifer,
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you kind of had this proclivity for writing about mystery and crime, and
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like, you know, you seem to know a lot about this forensic world.
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Why is that? And I literally had it was other people who said
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and who said this to me? And I'm like, oh, oh,
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I've kind of taken for granted that I have this whole wealth of knowledge about
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death investigation and forensics and how things work in police investigations that that most people
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don't know. But I really did not put it together for a very long
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time. And then I decided to go back to school to get some more
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forensic training because I realized that I kind of liked it a lot. I
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kind of missed it. I kind of I love science. I love that
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world, and so much changes in forensics all the time. There's always new
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things developing. I mean, DNA science alone isn't ever merging emerging science.
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So I went back to school got some training in forensic science so that I
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could actually build from the platform that I had, And that's kind of how
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it all landed. So it all came together. Yeah, we're always the
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We're always the last to realize what we're good at. Isn't isn't it the
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truth? I literally sat when I was eighteen in my room, going what
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am I going to do with my life? And I looked around. I
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had three thousand vhss of movies from my video store walking around. I looked
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around. I'm like, I guess I like movies. Maybe I should have
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a director. And that was pretty much the route the road I was,
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we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
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the show. I Ah, it's funny, you know, because we just
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live it. We don't think about it, you know, right exactly.
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But that's a very unique story, like you literally were born into it.
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Other than being born at a murder scene, you're the next best thing is
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literally being around at the entire time. It's pretty amazing. Now you've also
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consulted in a bunch of shows, haven't you. What kind of shows have
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you consulted and what have you consulted with them on? If you could talk
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about yeah, yeah, it's yeah of course. So out of that experience
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of going back to school, I wrote this book, Forensic Speak, which
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is basically like a forensic boot camp in a book, because I couldn't find
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anything that really kind of compiled all that forensic knowledge into a really easy,
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fast, understandable, authentic, comprehensive other than a textbook. Who's going to
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read a textbook? And because of this book, I started to get speaking
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engagements and then people started to find me, and I guess it was really
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just word of mouth because I really didn't advertise it. And then I would
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get calls or emails from like assistance on shows like the Wi fi've oh or
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Rectify, Leverage, Conviction bull just along the way, just these kinds of
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social and they would just have kind of random questions about mostly about like if
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a person died this way, is that plausible? Or if we do this,
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what kind of evidence can we get off that body? So yeah,
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and that must have been That must have been exciting starting to get those kind
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of calls. Yeah, yeah, it's I love it because I love to
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research. And so if I didn't know the answer, I got a chance
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to learn something new. So if you give a definition of what is forensic
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speak, yes, so forensic speak is basically how do you speak forensics?
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There is often enticity to the language of DNA, crime scene investigation, death
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investigation, what happens in a courtroom, fingerprint investigation. There's a whole language
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to that, and so not just the science behind it. The book is
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about the science behind it, but it's also like what does it mean?
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So I break it down into sections chapters that breaks all the like fingerprint science,
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DNA science, how do you investigate a crime scene? What is a
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bugle swab? What you know, what is mitochondrial DNA and how do can
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you use it in your writing or in your content creating. It's funny because
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I actually remember very vividly when I first got to LA almost over a decade
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ago. I went to the California Science Museum and they had a CSI exhibit
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Cool, like an from the show from the show Cool. And I got
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to walk in and we go through three murder scenes and its like and literally
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you go in and start playing the game of like what's the blacklood splatter?
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How is blood splatter actually done? Like how is it really how do you
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buy the blood splatter? You can tell if how the body was hit or
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how the injury happened or can you probably can explain blood splatter is much better
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than I can, but it was. But it was kind of so fascinating
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to go in through all of that and there was an autopsy table. It
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was like insane stuff. So it was I know, you're like, what,
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I want to go one too? I did? You literally didn't have
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an autopsy table, so what so what? Like? So just for a
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perfect example, like blood splatter, you know, something as simple as blood
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splatter, how can blood splatter really determine how somebody might have died or or
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it got or the kind of injury or things like what can you get from
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that? So yeah, that's yeah. Okay, so I actually have a
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whole section on and I'm going to have to correct you. It's not splatter.
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It's spatter. There you go, you see, that's why you're on
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the show now. So right, so the spatter is the thing. Okay,
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So the splatter is how do I is it semantics? It's really semantics.
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So the splatter is kind of what happened, but the spatter is the
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image that it makes or the pattern that it makes. So it is really
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fascinating because things like the spatter. You know, when a blood drops,
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it drops at a certain velocity. So if it's a low velocity, you
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can tell from the way they have tails. They have bodies and tails,
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and so from the tail points you in the direction of where the person was
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going when the hit happened or when the injury happened. And then whether it's
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low, medium, or high velocity impact. So like a low velocity is
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going to be somebody bludgeoning you with a hammer or a crowbat. A high
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velocity is going to be gunshot, wound, and so the spatter is going
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to look different. It's going to it's just going to look different depending on
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what kind of velocity. And so that alone can tell you a lot about
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how an incident happened, where an incident happened. Uh, there's this thing
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called arterial a wave pattern in blood spatter. So if a person is still
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living and they're moving like they're trips, say they get hit, they get
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injured, they get shot, and it's in an artery, but they're still
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trying to get away or move because the heart is beating, the blood is
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coming out in that rhythm, and so you can and it creates this wave
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pattern. So like you can some I've seen pictures where you can see it,
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like on the wall, a wave of blood, and so you know
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that person was living while they were trying to travel. Does that make sense?
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It makes absolute sense. I'm fascinating. It's crazy, right, It's
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insane, Like just thinking about it's insane to think about, like how the
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blood is pumping and then as they're walking away you see the That going to
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determine how long they live for how it get determines so many things. And
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this is just simply off a blood spatter, which is remarkable, and these
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are the kind of thing. Well, let me ask you, like,
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what is the biggest mistakes you see in crime traumas. Listen, I have
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a whole lecture on this, and I want to preface this by saying,
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there are reasons why mistakes or I call them fabrications are created, obviously,
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and a lot of them have to do with just the condensing of time.
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So we were talking about DNA, like you were mentioning DNA one of the
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biggest things content creators have to do because we only get maybe forty four minutes
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to tell a story or an hour and a half to tell a story,
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so we can't in real life, it's going to take six to twelve weeks
16:52
for a DNA result to come back to the lab if it's not backed up.
16:56
Rape kits are backed up years, so we don't have six to eight
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or twelve weeks on a TV show to wait for that to happen. So
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that's one of the things that happens a lot. It's just the condensing of
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time where where you put a DNA sample into the lab and like you know,
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a half an hour later, you have a result. Okay, probably
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not going to happen, unless maybe you bribe the technician. I don't know.
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But I think it also gives us opportunity to create things in the story
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like that. Like say you have an investigator who's like, I need to
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know this by today, by the end of the day. So they go
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and they talk to the technician, and what does that conflict look like?
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So it gives us an opportunity to raise some conflict in the story. I
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think these are things we can use. So and so are there other mistakes
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specifically, not just like condensings of times, like mistakes like when you like
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something you should avoid, should avoid? There are some many, there are
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so many. I always like to start from the position of try to speak
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it well, like try learn forensics enough that you can speak it well that
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you don't because you don't have to make these mistakes I'm trying to think of
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when there's very much shades of gray, a lot of them. Some of
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them it has to do within the process of how do I say, the
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protocol of processing a crime scene or the protocol of getting evidence. So sometimes
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you'll see maybe people go, investigators go back to the scene and they'll find
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a piece of evidence or see something in that scene that they didn't notice before
18:48
that then they use to try to solve the crime. Hey, great,
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you can do that, But that piece of evidence you find after the crime
18:55
scene is shut down is totally not going to be admissible in court. That
19:00
crime scene is done and over, it's been trampled on by one hundred people.
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There's no way anything you find there is How do you can't use that
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evidence that you find after you open up the crime scene? So I see
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that happen a lot, and I'm like, you know, where they maybe
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go back to the location where the person dies, Well, what happens all
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the time they find a braceletter? I don't know. Sure, well,
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I get what you're doing for the story, Sure, but that would never
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even be considered good evidence. So let me ask you though, And because
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I think I think the audience is for the films that are made today and
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TV shows are made today. We are so savvy, we are so educated
19:45
in the sense of way things are done, where things you can get away
19:48
with. In the seventies or the eighties you couldn't even begin to try to
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get away with. Now, it's just we're just too we're too sophisticated as
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an audience. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
20:07
now back to the show, because we've just consumed so much of specifically of
20:12
this kind of content, but a lot of different things, even bad visual
20:17
effects. You could like, I have my wife who's not even in the
20:19
business, Like she's like, oh, that's a bad green screen. I'm
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like, what, how do you know that? She's like, look at
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it. The comp is really bad. I'm like, oh, Jesus,
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you've been listening to me too much. So there's so many so there's so
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many things that that's so difficult for us to get to get past. As
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writers. Now you have to really know your stuff. There's somebody out there
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listening right now saying, well, you know what, why do I need
20:41
to know about forensic speak? Like it really it's all about the story.
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It's really all about these are detailed. This is minutia that really isn't as
20:49
important as the character development or this or that that. So how would you
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like argue to the sense and I know my answer to that, but why
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would you argue that to like, well, look, you know this is
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why this is kind of important, and it doesn't have to be exact because
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we're this is we're telling a story. But I want to hear what you
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say, and then if it's the same as I say, I'll just say
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agree. If not, I'll have I want to hear what you have to
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say to you. That's a great question. And I yes, I believe.
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I'm a writer. I write film, I write TV, I write
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novels. I believe first and foremost we are here to tell a great story
21:29
and to entertain, and that is primarily done through character, not necessarily plotting.
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Plotting is important, of course, structure plotting very important. But what
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I think some of the best, some of my favorite crime shows, excuse
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me, are the ones where the character is completely informed. The character's motivations
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and all that are completely informed by the investigation that they're doing. So not
22:03
only are they just uncovering, you know, a crime scene and investigating and
22:07
finding justice. That's wonderful, that's a good structure, but it's how is
22:11
it informing their motivations, their wounds, their strengths. How is it playing
22:18
to their strengths, How is it really digging at their wounds? How is
22:22
it changing them as a person? So I think that that's like, first
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you have to get the base level right. You have to get I always
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say I love writing crime drama because it's very left brain and right brain.
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You have to get the trails of evidence absolutely lock tight. You have to
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get the plotting lock tight. You have to get that structure. But then
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on top of that, you have to get this. You have to work
22:47
in this amazing story about a character who really goes from A to Z right,
22:52
who makes this one ady arc. And the thing that's doing that for
22:56
that character is the crime that they're investigating. The people that they're meeting,
23:03
the victim, the victims, families, the suspects, those are all working
23:07
to change them, to transform them, to test them, to provide obstacles.
23:11
So that's that's my answer to it. I guess, so you need
23:15
to know you need to be authentic in your crime plotting, and crime plotting
23:22
has to do with trails of evidence, and trails of evidence have to do
23:26
with forensic evidence. My answer to this is a little bit different, but
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I think it's agreed that if anyone even cares, but my point of view
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of forensics or that kind of details, you look at a film like Titanic,
23:37
which you know, Jimmy Jimmy camer went a little crazy on that film
23:41
as far as authenticity is concerned, but there is an underlining feeling that the
23:48
audience can feel when things are authentic, And with forensics it's even more so,
23:53
Like I literally know that he used Like the napkins that were on the
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tabe were manufactured by the company that did the napkins seventy five years you know,
24:04
one hundred years ago when they first did it. Like would you notice
24:08
that No? Would I notice that? No? But everybody else on this
24:12
crew did notice that. Everyone and the crew felt that the actors felt it,
24:17
and that came right off the screen because you can't and I feel the
24:19
same thing work with forensics. Like if you're just if I write a scene
24:23
that's forensic based and all I'm going to use is my pre knowledge of all
24:29
the shows I've written, I could probably write something that's somewhat acceptable but will
24:34
not will not pass the smell test. It just it won't pass the smell
24:38
test, you know, as opposed to something that you might write or someone
24:41
who's been who has you as or read this book, or have you as
24:45
a consultant where like perfect splatter, like I thought I was splatter and not
24:48
spatter like these kind of details, but you do feel it. And I
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think that's why it's so important to understand the language in whatever genre you're talking.
24:57
Does that make sense absolutely? I love that analogy. Yeah, yeah,
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right, you're right. I love that. That's really cool because it's
25:04
recular. Yeah, it's like infused then, you know, and when the
25:07
actors everybody on set, it's infused in it. And yeah, like like
25:15
er I mean, like or any of these medical shows, Like there's stuff
25:18
that they get spirit out there that nobody knows what it means. But it's
25:22
authentic. And I think we're now as an audience expecting that we expect that
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you guys have gotten your stuff together enough to like really confuse us with this
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technical top but it makes us feel like we're actually there. Does that make
25:37
sense as well? Yeah, Yeah, it's funny because I've actually had it
25:41
work against me a few times where I'll get feedback from I think it happened
25:47
more with my novels rather than my scripts. Where I got feedback from the
25:49
editor was like, yeah, I don't really think this is how it happens.
25:55
And I'm like, no, it's exactly how it happens. But because
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we're so used to seeing things that aren't correct, right, it's the CSI
26:03
effect, you know. They're like, was CSI the first show that actually
26:07
really took it seriously? Like the forensics. That's the first time forensics like
26:14
became a thing for me. Like CSI was the first thing. I mean,
26:18
you know, there was like homicide life on the street, there were
26:19
cop shows. I mean, cops will have been a staple since the fifties,
26:22
but forensics, because that's the first time, Yeah, people were actually
26:26
like, oh, what, there's a science. How do they do that?
26:30
How do you figure that out? Because I know when when I even
26:36
growing up, I was kind of embarrassed about what my father did because when
26:38
I would tell them, oh, he's a medical examiner, I would get
26:41
these looks like I don't know what that is. And I'd be like,
26:45
well, you know he does autopsys's and but he investigates death. And I
26:48
would get these looks, I don't know what that is. But he would
26:52
but he would have been on the crime scene. He would have been on
26:53
the crimes. You would know he would absolutely, So he would he be
26:56
a crime scene investigator like as well, or would he be a medical examiner
27:00
or is there a difference. There is a difference. So in our county
27:06
there's a corner medical examiner system. So and it's a smaller county. So
27:10
he whenever something happened, you know, a death, and not all of
27:14
them were criminal obviously, but he would go out and he would take his
27:17
own sete of pictures, he would do his own investigation. Nobody could touch
27:21
the body until he was done doing his examination first, which we see,
27:26
which we see a lot on these CSI kind of scenarios. You always see
27:30
a guy there or a girl there taking pictures. Can't touch the body.
27:33
Touch he's done, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he because there
27:36
was nobody else to do it. You know, the detectives did their thing
27:40
as well, but he had to do his investigation because there, you know,
27:45
he was the corner the medical examiner, the death investigator, he was
27:48
everybody. He was everything. So he would do everything and then once his
27:55
he was satisfied, then they would finish up their investigation and examine the scene,
28:00
and then they would bring the body to the morgue and then he could
28:03
do the examination of the body. Now, in Los Angeles, for instance,
28:07
we have a corner medical examiner system, So the medical examiners stay at
28:12
the County morgue. They never leave the basement. They never leave the morgue.
28:18
All they do. They're just like churning out autopsies boom boom boom.
28:21
Sad. But yes, but true, they head but true, So they
28:26
don't they only examine the body. But then we have corners in LA who
28:30
go out and corner investigators who go to the scene and they do their own
28:34
pictures and then you know, take temperature the body and investigations. So it
28:40
really depends where you're at. What system. Now, in your opinion,
28:44
what are what is the best show and the best film ever that has this
28:48
kind of like forensic authenticity. Hmm, gosh, there's so many. Let's
28:55
see show wise. Wow. And I mean I imagine CSI is pretty hard.
29:06
I mean yeah, I mean they do a really good job. They
29:07
cover I mean, obviously, they go beyond what is possible, and their
29:15
labs look amazing, and I don't think any lab in the United States really
29:18
looks like that, even in New York or LA. It just happens.
29:22
But but they, you know, I do think they have done a great
29:26
job of exposing the science of what and the and the and the depth and
29:33
intricacy of the science and and how it's changing and evolving and we're getting better
29:40
at it. How about movies. There any movies that you just saw,
29:47
you know, forensically. Gosh, you know, I have to say one
29:52
of my favorite movies investigatively is Prisoners Will be right back after a word from
30:00
our sponsor and now back to the show. Oh god, yeah, yeah,
30:10
I remember that movie. Yeah, because the truth of the matter and
30:14
the thing is when I've I've broken down that movie extensively, and in terms
30:19
of evidence trails, and when you follow the evidence trails, I think there
30:26
are only I think there is only one piece of physical evidence in one or
30:32
two in that entire case, because I look at it also as cases the
30:37
rest is all circumstantial or direct evidence. And I think that is I love
30:42
this movie so much because that is actually how it usually happens. Most cases
30:49
are tried off of sorry, most cases are tried off of circumstantial evidence or
30:56
maybe direct evidence. It's actually a lot more challenging to find admissible physical evidence
31:03
than what we see on television. Mmm. So forensically, I think that
31:10
that's a pretty accurate depiction of how cases are more typically investigated through kind of
31:18
detective you know, detective work and talking to people and putting together inferences.
31:26
Okay, now with characters. I think this is a great, a great
31:30
thing we could talk about too, just and to help the writing. If
31:33
you create a crime, and you create that crime, that evidence trail,
31:40
that's kind of like plotting and you're kind of outlining the story. So if
31:45
you know a lot about this process, just doing the normal forensics, you
31:51
know, situation kind of helps you write the story. Is that correct?
31:55
Does that Is that fair? One hundred percent? I always when I start
31:57
a new project, I always pretend like I'm the detective or I'm the investigator,
32:02
and I create a case file and I start laying out like, okay,
32:06
this is what I wan't think is going to happen with the murder.
32:07
And I start laying out what are the trails of evidence to get there?
32:13
Even if I never use all of them or I don't use everything. I
32:16
pretend like I build the entire case first, and that becomes my structure,
32:21
that becomes my foundation. That makes it makes writing a little bit easier almost
32:27
if you're going down this road. One of my favorite shows, and it's
32:30
not specifically forensics, but there was a lot of forensics in it was Bones.
32:34
Oh yeah, I loved Bones, and my wife and I just we
32:37
just found it like a year ago and we just ate through the entire twelve
32:40
seasons, just binged it over six months. We just anytime we didn't and
32:45
it was just and you're sitting there going, how is she finding out like
32:49
this information from the bone, Like you can actually see where the hatchet hit
32:53
and what kind of blunt instrument it and that's all that I'm assuming it's true.
32:58
That's that's like a sub field within this in this world, right,
33:02
Yeah, Forensic anthropology is a completely different subfield where you're really just you have
33:07
no tissue, Yeah, you just have bones. So it's very fascinating and
33:13
ways to figure out the ages of the bones and the sex and gender and
33:15
heighten Yeah, yeah, all based all based on just bones. It was
33:21
such a good show, such a good show. Yeah, that was Now.
33:23
I'm sure you've been asked this question a bunch of times because you're in
33:27
forensics, OJ, what happened? Do you know? We actually studied that
33:36
case. I'm sure you would been the others. Yes, in the forensics
33:40
academy, and we had guest women who had worked that case. Okay,
33:45
that's actually such a pivotal And it was just the anniversary of this yeah,
33:52
yeah, because has twenty five years or something. Yes, And I just
33:55
found out that OJ has a Twitter account and I just was like, I
34:00
mean, he was like, hey, guys, you know I got some
34:02
payback to do, so I'll get ready to hear what I have to say.
34:06
And You're like, you don't want OJ to say he's got payback.
34:08
That's just not so brutal. Ugh, So what happened with that case because
34:15
we all know he did it, So it's such a failure of the complete
34:22
justice system. But anyway, you know what, it's a failure of forensics
34:25
first, and that case actually was pivotal and was like a turning point,
34:34
and they teach it for this reason in the way that we handle and process
34:40
evidence. Because I know, this is hard to believe because we think we're
34:45
so advanced and things are advancing so fast, But twenty five years ago,
34:47
it was very common and not unusual for a detective to just slide a violet
34:53
blood in his pocket. It's three in the morning. I'm going to run
34:57
home, get three hours of sleep, and then I'll bring it to the
35:00
office. That was common, that was normal, And I mean I remember
35:07
times even like where my dad would be investigating a crime, or not even
35:13
a crime, a death, you know, late into the night. It's
35:15
four am. He's tired, there's snow all over the roads, it's snowing.
35:19
He's it's another ten miles to the morgue. He's just gonna pull the
35:22
car into the garage, sleep for a couple hours, and then in the
35:25
morning, two three hours later, he'll bring it to the mark, leave
35:29
it in the car, leave it in the car, lock the door,
35:30
locks the garage. It's just us. But you can't do that anymore.
35:34
I mean, that's but that's kind that's kind of how things were done back
35:37
then. So that's basically what happened with the OJ case. They weren't trying
35:40
to be you know, trying they wanted to prosecute this, obviously, they
35:45
wanted to do the best they could. But that was just a normal procedure,
35:52
and it just and the and the other side's attorney's OJ's attorneys just just
35:57
rip them apart. Yeah, just tor exactly. Then you have a huge
36:00
hole, you have this huge break in the chain of evidence, and boom,
36:06
you're done. It's not admissible anymore. So and they just, I
36:08
mean, it's a it's a master class. I mean, Crockery was It's
36:13
a master class to watch how you can literally just destroy he but there was
36:16
so much he was the chef, but there was so much meat out there.
36:22
I'm not sure if that's a good analogy or not in this situation,
36:25
but he just, I mean, he cooked them. I mean, and
36:30
I was one of the guys and I was I don't know how how old
36:32
was what year was that. It was twenty five years ago? Four?
36:37
Yeah, so I was. I was just out of it was just like
36:39
just out of high school. And we all watched it, like every we
36:44
did. You know, it was the best reality show on television. You
36:46
just turn it on and like, oh, there it is again, and
36:49
no, there it is again, or you hear the updates of what happened.
36:51
It was insane time, I know. Don't they say that it's kind
36:53
of the start of reality television too. It kind of I mean, the
36:58
arguably the start of reality were the real World, which was on MTV.
37:02
That was the first that kind of reality show. But this was like our
37:07
obsession of like what a reality show. It's cinema verite, It's what it
37:12
is. It's cinema verite watching that Core case. But yeah, and I
37:19
became and so many people started becoming like forensic experts by watching that because there
37:23
was so much speak. When did CSI come out? That must have come
37:28
out really soon after, late nineties, yeah, ninety nine. Yeah,
37:32
that came out after because it was such a because forensics played such a part
37:37
in that case. Oh my god, it's such a things. Yeah,
37:39
things, I mean really, policies and procedures really changed, first of all
37:45
in LA and then just yes, read throughout the county or the country.
37:50
Yeah, Now, what what types of evidence are there? Because you kind
37:53
of mentioned a few of them, like there are specific kinds of evidence,
37:58
and you know, I always thought it was like, you know, so
38:00
circumstantial and physical those are the two that I know of from watching shows.
38:04
What other kind of evidence is there? Sure? So? Sure? So?
38:07
I mean you have physical evidence and you can break that into trace evidence,
38:09
biological evidence, impression evidence. You know what's impression? Impression? It's
38:15
like you you walk through stand footprint, yeah, or somebody you know hits
38:20
a hammer through your drywall. That's an impression. Sure. And then you
38:24
have direct evidence, which is really your video, feeds, your your photos,
38:30
anything witnessed, eyewitness testimony, anything that directly shows that thing going on,
38:37
which we have so much of that now. I mean, well,
38:40
it's big brother, it's nineteen eighty four, everybody's watching everything. But so
38:45
so in the Rodney King core case, that video that the guy took of
38:50
the beating would be considered what kind of evidence direct evidence, that's direct evidence,
38:57
which which meant which meant nothing at the time. That's a whole other
39:01
It's it's not your job. It's not your job. It's not it's not
39:06
your job to judge the evidence. You just have to present the evidence.
39:10
Forensics is science applied to the law. All we have to do is apply
39:15
the science and then the legal system hopefully takes care of the roads. Oh
39:19
so, what other kind of evidences are there? We did we did direct,
39:22
we did physical, and then there's then circumstantial, which is really the
39:30
gray area of evidence and actually where I think story can live very nicely because
39:39
and it hasn't have you seen seven Seconds? It's a show on Netflix.
39:45
It's a limited series on Netflix. It's a crime, a crime series set
39:52
in New York City. So much circumstantial evidence. So it's all about you
39:57
look at what happened and you try to piece together like a dotted line.
40:02
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
40:09
the show. So it's like if somebody broke into your studio, you weren't
40:15
there, and let's say, you know, let's say you leave your studio.
40:17
Everything's perfect the way it is. You get your nice stools and your
40:22
pilloda and my yoda yodas. Everything's perfect, right, your pictures. You
40:25
leave for two hours, go to the Trader Joe's. You come back,
40:30
your stools are tossed across the room, Your pictures are off the wall and
40:32
broken. Your yodas are all smashed up or maybe missing. Maybe your yodas
40:37
are missing, and your equipment's missing. What can you assume happened while you
40:43
were gone, that someone broken, and generally speaking, someone broken and was
40:47
searching for something or actually there was some theft involved. That's one case scenario.
40:52
Another case scenario is an ex girl friend from thirty years ago has found
40:55
me and just wants to ruin my life. I don't have one of those,
41:01
but just you know, for this case, for the state, for
41:04
the state of the of the podcast three, Uh, my uncle came home
41:08
and he was drunk, Like there's a I mean, I don't have a
41:12
drunk uncle, but that's another. So there's many scenarios. But the first
41:15
place you go to was foul play or someone tried to break in and steal
41:20
right right. I mean another option is you got drugged, you came home
41:23
and you did it yourself and then you woke up, And I mean there's
41:25
so many, There's thousands of great story options. But the point is you
41:30
look at what happened and you say, what are the circumstances that are possible
41:36
in here? And then you start to talk to people like, okay,
41:40
so did you have an ex girlfriend, did you have a drunk uncle?
41:44
You know, did somebody drug your drink while you were in the Trader Joe's
41:46
I mean always my little coffee, the little coffee, that free coffee.
41:51
You get a Trader joke that really wasn't creamer, brutal, brtle. I'll
41:57
never drink trader Joe's coffee again, what is in the agave syrup? We're
42:05
writing shows right here as we speak. We're literally writing shows. The Trader
42:08
shows shows. It's a murder, ye, So yeah, So circumstantial is
42:16
where you're looking at the things that happen and trying to piece together a dotted
42:21
line that leads to the truth. And that's but that's basically why there's so
42:23
much of that in cinema and in television because of and also in novels and
42:30
things like that, because that's where it's a gray area. So you really
42:35
like, literally, we just you threw a scenario. I threw out three
42:37
possible scenarios, and you could have started and we could literally had twenty or
42:42
thirty Oh it's the ex girlfriend. Oh was the daughter, Oh it was
42:45
the butler that did it in the with the candlestick and the stick exactly.
42:51
So there's so many. But then forensics would come into that scenario and then
42:54
like, okay, let's see what evidence has been left behind, So maybe
42:59
there's some blood leftover, or some sweat or you know, things like that
43:04
from and then you and then like who has access to this place? Oh?
43:07
Okay, what is this and that I'm speaking purely from watching shows for
43:12
the last twenty odd years. That's how I'm even able to even have this
43:15
conversation with you. It's purely from watching so many of these shows, just
43:21
like, well, there's this, and there's this option, and then this
43:22
could happen in this It's funny, but seriously, like you're like a forensic
43:27
specialist and I'm literally having a conversation and I'm not, by any far,
43:30
by any stretch, am I an expert, But at least I could have
43:34
a conversation with you, like, oh, well, DNA. It could
43:37
have been blood, it could have been sweat, it could have been spit,
43:39
a hair follicle, could have been left behind, Soil from the shoe.
43:44
Maybe somebody's shoe left a piece of shit. Yeah, and where is
43:46
that soil? Well, it's it's it's it's drends. What is it from?
43:51
I see Beverly Hills cop too, Like, oh, the shoes they
43:53
have mud on it. Where's the mud from the oil fields? Well,
43:57
he used to jog over at the oil fields. That's where he's at.
43:59
And all these things and this is like literally decades of information that gets flown
44:02
into your head as a writer of all these shows and all these experiences that
44:07
you start throwing in there, it is fascinating and it's really fun fascinating.
44:12
It is fun to write this stuff, right, And what you just did
44:15
with the I mean, that's okay, that's how we do it. We're
44:17
storytellers. And so what you just did with the shoe to the jogging to
44:22
the oil, that's physical evidence, physical trace evidence. And you made a
44:28
circumstantial jump to the oil fields. That's perfect. That's now you're building a
44:32
trail of evidence. That's awesome. Right. That was literally the plot of
44:37
Beverly Hills Cop too. I never always, never forgot that, like at
44:39
the bottom of the shoe, there's this kind of sand. Well, where
44:43
have I seen that sand before? Oh, it's over down like a block
44:45
or two where the oil fields are, because there's oil in it. Because
44:49
it's he jogs at the oil and this is jogging shoes, and it must
44:52
be that's where he is and that's where the bad guys were. So but
44:57
that's how that's how you construct the story like this. It's really really fascinating.
45:01
And see how Beverly Hills cop right, Yeah, that's a comedy,
45:08
but it's a crime, it's a detective story. Yeah, so people think
45:14
that detective stories are just this one thing, but there's actually, like I
45:17
have a whole lecture on there's like eleven types of crime stories and one of
45:21
them is comedic community. So what can you give us a few examples of
45:24
those kind of crime stories because everyone thinks of c s I everyone thinks of
45:29
homicide or law and order and that kind of stuff, which is obvious.
45:32
Absolutely. Okay, there's the first one, Beverly Hills Cup two, but
45:37
then another one. I loved this show and it was on Pushing Daisies.
45:42
It was a great show. Yeah, it's said it went away. You
45:45
have Monk. Monk was so good good comedic, Oh goodness. Of course,
45:52
now that you ask, I'm like totally blanking on all these bones.
45:57
Bones has some humor, psych has a lot of humor. There. There
46:00
even Brooklyn nine nine, which is like one of my favorite shows right now.
46:04
For brook nine nine is a forensic comedy. It's a it's a detective
46:07
cop comedy and they solve cases every episode right in a funny, ridiculous way.
46:15
Yes, and so when but with these obviously the forensics doesn't have to
46:19
be as lock tight, because that's not the point you're watching it for the
46:22
you know, how did they get the killer? But there still has to
46:24
be some but there still has to be some basic understanding of forensics, because
46:30
the audience is so well, so well educated, and so sophisticated that if
46:35
they even in the comedy, there's some basic things like DNA. You can
46:39
only do so much with DNA and you can't go too far off the off
46:44
the reservation makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, And if you were to just
46:49
break down an episode of Brooklyn nine nine purely just for plot and for the
46:53
detective elements, the trails of evidence, it would work. It would totally,
46:58
it would totally work every single So there, you know, it's like
47:01
the character, the plot, the characters plot, brain right, rain,
47:05
And that's great. I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of people
47:07
again only think of like CSI think of those kind of shows for this kind
47:10
of stuff. But it is everywhere, and it's anytime there's a detective story,
47:15
anytime there's a cop story, there's always forensic even if like Beverly Hill's
47:20
Cop for a perfect example, or even just fun stupid comedies, there's still
47:24
always some sort of forensics involved or evidence based stuff involved. Now let's talk
47:30
DNA because DNA is a very broad term, and what is the truth about
47:39
DNA? What can we really truly get out of DNA in today's world?
47:44
And how long has DNA been around? Has it been like thirty years,
47:46
forty years, fifty years? Okay? So yeah, I love starting DNA.
47:52
I mean the first sort of inklings of genomes and all that, we're
47:58
back in the fifties. But truthfully, the first case that was used,
48:04
sorry, the first case that used DNA legitimately in a court to solve the
48:08
case was in England and it was nineteen eighty eight, and so really you
48:15
did not see DNA really start to become widespread wides you have widespread use in
48:23
a court room until probably the mid to late nineties. So that's kind of
48:28
like exactly when OJ happened. So it was in its infancy. Basically DNA
48:31
was in its infancy. Yeah, and at that time too, it was
48:35
difficult to test it because you needed larger quantities of it. There were limited
48:38
testing. Yep, it's evolving so much. I just wrote two news letter
48:45
articles in my newsletter about DNA and different. The last one is all about
48:51
kind of the different things that are evolving in DNA right now, DNA research,
48:54
like they're starting to do research and develop tests where you could actually get
49:00
Yet it's not really DNA, it's it's considered more of like a chemical compound
49:04
that can determine your if your male or female, because DNA doesn't determine that.
49:09
It can't determine male or female. You can do why DNA tests which
49:15
determine male, but you have to know first that it wasn't a male,
49:19
So it's a little tricky. So it's constantly evolving, it's constantly getting better.
49:25
But for instance, this is a fascinating statistic I learned recently and sad
49:32
actually, so there are over four hundred thousand rape kits sitting in land country.
49:39
Yeah, what's his name? Last week tonight John Oliver did like a
49:43
oh I love that twenty five minute just rant on rape kits. It's insane
49:50
that that's total no. And he did one before that on death investigation,
49:53
which was hilarious and also very true. By the way, Yes, will
49:59
be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
50:07
Anyways, I think something like, only point two percent of those kids.
50:15
Let's just say right now, whatever's getting tested, only point two percent
50:20
of those cases of those kids are actually solved based on DNA. Wow,
50:25
that's that, and you would and you would think that that has the best
50:30
option of actually using the DNA to solve the case. This just illustrates the
50:36
point that most times either DNA isn't available at the scene, or it's partial
50:44
DNA they can't get a full reading, or it's degraded. It's just not
50:50
what we think it is based on television. It's good, it's wonderful,
50:53
it's getting better, but also it's expensive. And so another thing people don't
51:00
realize is that when an investigator investigates a scene, DNA is not necessarily the
51:06
first thing that they go test, like if they have certain things that they're
51:09
testing, because it's expensive, so they'll try other tests first. A lot
51:15
of times tests on I don't know, fibers and shoe prints and things like
51:21
that. They'll send those off to the lab first because they're cheaper, they're
51:25
easier to get, and then the DNA tests again. It takes six to
51:30
twelve weeks to get those back. It's sometimes it's backlogged. They're expensive,
51:36
and you got it, and you were talking about police budgets and investigative budgets
51:42
across the country that are constantly being challenged and there's not enough money to do
51:46
things that really need to be done. And I mean that's and there's not
51:50
enough technicians to be to be tested. That's another big problem. There's not
51:53
enough labs and not enough technicians trained to test all of this, on top
51:58
of funding resources being a bit scarce too. So yeah, we need some
52:05
reform in that area. It's I mean, just just talking to you in
52:09
this episode, I mean, there's being being a storyteller and a writer myself.
52:15
It just seems that there is endless amounts of just ripe story ideas in
52:22
forensics, you know, just to create you know, I mean literally just
52:28
having conversations to you right now, I've had five or six different story ideas
52:31
like just like, well we could do this, and we could do this
52:34
detective story here and they could and that's basically what TV shows are like,
52:37
they just there's just this one every week. There's just that's why you could
52:39
do three thousand, five thousand episodes of CSI in multiple states, in multiple
52:46
different you know, there's just so much, so much to be mined,
52:52
so much to be mine. So as a beginning writer, if any writers
52:55
are out there who are beginning, uh, you know, this isn't possibly
53:00
a really nice niche to walk into without question. And if you know your
53:04
stuff and you can actually write really well in this niche, chances of you
53:07
getting hired at a at a show or streaming service becomes a lot a lot
53:14
better. Would you would you agree? I would, I would agree.
53:16
I would hope that would be true well in the in the magical world of
53:22
course. Now, also, I wanted to ask you really quickly any advice
53:27
on how to make a courtroom scene a bit more realistic because I've I've loved
53:30
courtroom dramas. I love a good courtroom drama like a few a few good
53:37
Men, like the Verdict. You know, these all these amazing courtroom dramas.
53:44
What can we do to make those a little bit more realistic? Okay?
53:47
Well, I do have a section in forensic speak on courtroom talk,
53:52
because you should be able to understand, because I know I wasn't even completely
53:55
when I started diving into this. I knew a lot about death investigation,
54:00
but I was like, Yeah, what does happen in the courtroom? So
54:01
I started to really talk to judges, talk to attorneys. I've sat in
54:07
on murder trials before and I love it. I love doing this, So
54:12
I think that's a really good way for a writer, just spend a couple
54:15
of days sitting in on a trial, on a criminal trial or civil.
54:21
I mean, I think criminal ones are a little more interesting now. They're
54:23
not the most exciting things in the world, but you get to understand how
54:27
the process works and who asks what and what they can ask or can't ask.
54:31
And that's probably the best advice I have is just to experience it,
54:38
and then if you know people who are criminal trial attorneys or judges or whatever,
54:45
talk to them. I sat down and talked with the judge and asked,
54:46
and she was just so gracious asking me as I asked a bunch of
54:50
questions about what does this really mean? And can you why isn't this thing
54:54
admissible? And how does the process work? Yeah, I mean it's you'd
55:00
be surprised that attorneys and judges they're not often asked to be interviewed. So
55:04
if you ask them, like, hey, I'm a writer, I'd love
55:07
to talk to you and kind of pick your brain about your process. That's
55:12
a very high likelihood that they're going to say yes, especially the retired ones,
55:15
because they just they want to talk and share and exactly exactly. Now,
55:22
tell me about your book. I mean, we've been talking about your
55:23
book a lot in this episode. But tell me a little bit more about
55:28
your book and where can people find it? And then where can people find
55:30
you and your other work as well? True, Sue, Sure, Okay,
55:34
So it's forensic Speak. It's over three hundred terms on forensics. It
55:38
is a forensic boot camp in a book, in a book, and you
55:44
can find everything super easy on my website Jenniferdornbush dot com. You can find
55:49
links there to purchase it and that you can find my blog all kinds of
55:54
information. There's some free videos on crime writing there as well. Okay,
56:00
and yeah, so Jenniferdormbush dot com will be the I also have Twitter and
56:06
Facebook and you'll find those links too, And so I like to just talk
56:09
a lot about forensics on my Forensics Speak Facebook page. So I'll put a
56:15
lot of just fun facts and you know, things that I run across.
56:19
And then you don't you have a book coming out to the sequel to at
56:21
the Corner. Oh yeah, so this is a novel that came out last
56:24
year and the sequel comes out January twenty twenty. Nice. So yeah,
56:30
and we're actually pitching this as a TV series, so as you should,
56:34
as you should listen. There's so many screaming services out there. There's so
56:38
many shows out there. I mean, come on, someone could finance this
56:43
and get it out on the sshoee someone. Yeah, we'll see fingers crossed.
56:50
Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions to ask all of
56:52
my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the
56:55
business today. Yeah, my goodness, that's such a great question because the
57:00
business is so different than when we try to break in. I think it's
57:05
so much friendlier. Honestly, there's all more opportunity now than there was.
57:09
But there's also a lot more competition. There's a lot of competition. There
57:13
will always be competition because what we do is unique and special and people want
57:17
to be a part of it. So that's amazing. My path has been
57:22
so odd in trying to break into so get born into a forensic family.
57:30
Yeah, so if you could just you know, get born into a forensic
57:34
family. That's the first step. I have no magic beings on this.
57:38
It's been so much hard work and perseverance and honestly just never quitting, just
57:45
never quitting. Find that circle of support because you need it. You need
57:51
that support along the way. Just keep challenging yourself in your craft. Can
58:00
I'm not a natural networker, but I had to learn, and so now
58:04
I actually love meeting new people like you. I love going out to meet
58:07
new people, and just keep adding to your contact list and keep in touch
58:12
with people. I think the biggest thing. And I think this is a
58:15
little challenging, and I don't mean to pick on millennials or gen zs,
58:19
but I think one of the things that has gained me the most progression is
58:25
that I stay in touch with people like I've I met people twelve years ago
58:30
that I just put them in my contact and you stay in touch, you
58:34
let them know what you're working on. Because it's a marathon, right as
58:37
we know, it's a marathon. It's like five marathons, maybe even twenty,
58:40
I don't know, it's only yet ran like five thousand miles already,
58:47
So everybody knows that, and they're in it for the long run, and
58:52
so just develop friendships and relationships and keep developing those. And I think they
58:59
work best they're on a personal level, not on social media. Fair Yeah,
59:04
a phone call and personal in face. That's always, it's always in
59:07
person, it is always. Yeah, I just have a coffee fund,
59:10
because that's what you're going to do. You're gonna go out for coffee a
59:13
lot, like fair enough, take people out for coffee, go for just
59:16
honestly, I really think it's about building relationships and persevering. Fair enough.
59:22
Now, can you tell me the book that had the biggest impact on your
59:24
life or career? Goodness, yes, I can. I mean, I
59:30
love to read, so I have a bazillion books on my love book list.
59:36
But I honestly, I'm going to tell you this is maybe a little
59:38
shocking, but the biggest I actually this actually came to me this year.
59:45
The book that has had the most impact and influence on my life and my
59:50
career is the Bible. Okay, fair enough, that's actually that's that's happened
59:53
in this show before. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
1:00:02
and now back to the show. It's fantastic stories. Fantastic stories,
1:00:12
sometimes brutal, sometimes brutal. There are x rated stories in the Bible,
1:00:16
people. I like the second part more than the first part. It's a
1:00:20
little little nature, not too much, but a little bit, a little
1:00:22
less wrath, but anyway, more about more about grace and mercy. Yeah,
1:00:30
less blood, a little less blood, not by much, but little
1:00:31
less. The Crucifixion is pretty bad, but like I said, little less,
1:00:35
little less less wars. I don't know, okay, I honestly yeah,
1:00:42
because uh and and the story that I keep going back to, because
1:00:46
you know how they say you always continue to write about the same story model
1:00:51
for me is the prodigal son. I find out my work right like story
1:00:58
just I write about that in so many different ways, even if I'm not
1:01:01
trying, I find I come back to that those themes. So okay,
1:01:06
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether
1:01:09
in the film industry or in life. I'm still learning it. Patience?
1:01:15
Yeah, that's mine. That's my patience. Ye, patience is mine too.
1:01:19
Yeah. And the universe has a way of forcing you to learn that,
1:01:23
forcing you to learn that lesson, whether you like it or not.
1:01:27
It's because no matter how much you're angry about things not happening the way you
1:01:31
want to do at the time frame you want to, no one cares.
1:01:36
No, one cares, No, one cares. No. What did you
1:01:39
learn from your biggest failure? Oh man, that's a good questions. Failure
1:01:50
there's been so many that means you've learned a lot. Then that's a good
1:01:53
thing. I always say fail and fail often. Oh man, you know,
1:01:59
I most recently in the last say two years, my biggest failure is
1:02:06
has been and it's you know, failure is a great thing, right,
1:02:08
because you learn has been learning focus because I was split in so many directions,
1:02:15
scattering the energies. Yeah, oh awful. And I thought I could
1:02:20
do it all, and society tells us we can do it all, especially
1:02:22
as women. They're like, you can have it all, you can do
1:02:24
it all. I'm like, well maybe, but I don't think you do
1:02:30
it all well when you try to have it all. So focus. I
1:02:36
suffer from that, believe and a lot of people listening to like Alex suffers
1:02:38
from focus. I'm like, I focus, but I focus on a lot
1:02:42
of things, and I do a lot, but I wish I could just
1:02:46
focus on one thing at a time. And when I do those small times
1:02:50
that I do actually focus one thing, I get so much more done.
1:02:52
I know. It's called deep work. Have you ever read that book Deep
1:02:55
Work? No, I would love to. It's a great book. It's
1:02:59
just all about athletes and entrepreneurs and scientists and all these kind of people that
1:03:04
kind of just what they do when you go into deep work. It's a
1:03:07
great book. It's just called deep work. And because we're all distracted with
1:03:12
so many things in life that when you can actually just turn everything off and
1:03:17
an hour of deep work is much more valuable than five hours of scattered work.
1:03:22
Very true, It's very true. Now, what is the biggest fear
1:03:28
you had to overcome for writing your first book, novel, screenplay. I
1:03:37
wrote my first screenplay in two thousand and two. We were living in Phoenix
1:03:42
and I was teaching high school at the time. So I would come home
1:03:46
after being exhausted from teaching high school all day, I know, and because
1:03:52
I didn't really have time in the morning to write, and I was like,
1:03:54
no, I'm going to write from three to five. And my biggest
1:03:57
fear was just that I wouldn't be able to to do it, to get
1:04:00
in the habit and really make it happen. Because I came to that kind
1:04:04
of writing later in my life. I really ran from my calling for a
1:04:08
long time. As we do, as one does, as one does,
1:04:12
as one does. But there's a great book called The Late Bloomers that I'm
1:04:15
wanting to read. Maybe you've heard about this. I haven't heard that one,
1:04:16
though. I'm embracing that. But yes, I was just so fearful
1:04:20
that I wouldn't be able to be disciplined enough to actually do what I knew
1:04:27
I was supposed to do. I trust me. I know a lot of
1:04:30
people listening right now are in the exact same boat. It's like, can
1:04:34
I actually do this? And if you just what I always found was like,
1:04:39
just set yourself a goal every day and if it's one page a day,
1:04:43
write one page a day. It could take you five minutes, it
1:04:46
can take you an hour, but just write there one page a day,
1:04:49
and in ninety days you'll have a screenplay exactly. And if you're feeling froggy,
1:04:54
two pages a day and you'll have it in forty five days, and
1:04:57
so on and so forth, and not to rewrite, don't rewrite, don't
1:05:01
rewrite, just keep it going and then go back later. And then now,
1:05:06
this is the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all
1:05:11
time. Oh my goodness, I hate these questions because I have so many.
1:05:20
All right, Definitely Gone with the Wind just been on the show many
1:05:25
times. Yeah, I mean I saw it at fifteen and I fell in
1:05:29
love with Scarlet, and I saw it around sixteen or seventeen. I was
1:05:31
just like, this is good, like even then when John Claudwundon was the
1:05:35
greatest actor of all time. For me, that was that it's still cut
1:05:42
through. Anytime a movie can cut through in your teens and still hit you,
1:05:45
that means it's really good, really good. It's funny because a lot
1:05:49
of these are not crime related at all, because people will say, oh,
1:05:53
you must watch a lot of crime, and like, yeah, I
1:05:55
do for research, But what I love to watch is is comedy or lighter
1:05:59
things. So Ama, it's definitely another one. I just turn it on
1:06:02
so just it's just so sweet and beautiful and yeah, Emily got it.
1:06:10
Oh no, I have to pick another one from what Okay, all right,
1:06:15
here's another one, and this is actually this is actually a crime a
1:06:17
comedy crime movie gross point plank. Oh so good, John, I wish
1:06:27
I could have written that. That film so good. So yeah, it's
1:06:31
just good. Jennifer has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.
1:06:36
It is a very this is a morbid conversation topic, if you will,
1:06:42
without questions, but it is the realities of life and also a wonderful,
1:06:46
uh and very fertile ground for writers to dive into. And it has been
1:06:51
diving into them since the since the late nineties, basically since CSI kind of
1:06:56
showed up. People have taken this entire sub genre of writing into a whole
1:07:00
other place. And it really can't help every genre. Yeah, you know,
1:07:04
completely in every genre, So it does help a lot. So thank
1:07:08
you for shedding some light into the dark places. As you like to say,
1:07:12
that's what I do. Thank you, Jennifer, thank you, thank
1:07:15
you. I want to thank Jennifer for coming on and shedding some light on
1:07:21
a very dark subject matter and making it so fun and playful and wonderful.
1:07:27
But something that is really needed, especially in the screenwriting community, to be
1:07:30
as accurate as humanly possible, because audiences today are extremely savvy and they've just
1:07:36
seen too much for you not to be accurate on these kind of things.
1:07:41
So again, thank you Jennifer so much. If you want to get links
1:07:44
to her book or anything we discussed in this episode, please head over to
1:07:47
any film also dot com forward slash seven fifty five, and if you have
1:07:50
it already, please head over to Filmmaking Podcast dot com, subscribe and leave
1:07:57
a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot.
1:08:00
Thank you again so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
1:08:02
hustle going, keep that dream alive, stay safe out there, and I'll
1:08:05
talk to you. Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie
1:08:10
Film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E F I L M
1:08:14
h U S T l E dot com.