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The Dr Who Episode: Steve Cole and MG Harris - Part 1 · Mythmakers

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Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding, I run
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the Centre but I'm also an author and I'm getting very excited because shortly in November
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we have the return of David Tennant as Doctor Who for a brief stint as the Doctor again and
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bringing back Catherine Tate who is one of the funnier of the companions in her role of Donna
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and so David Tennant is holding the role until Shutti Gatwa is taking over to be the next Doctor.
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I don't know that much about Doctor Who, other than being just a very keen watcher of the program,
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so I have brought along to the podcast two experts and I'm going to ask them to introduce
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themselves. So starting first with MG, would you like to say a little bit about you and Doctor Who?
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Yep, I'm MG Harris, I'm mostly children's author and I've written a time-traveling
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Adventurous Who's called The Joshua Files which was definitely partly inspired by my love for
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Doctor Who and another action, Adventurous Who's based on a sort of idea by Jerry Anderson,
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which is called Gemini Force One and my first contact with Doctor Who was probably when I
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moved to Manchester when I was a little girl and started watching Doctor Who, not really
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understanding it at first but because I wasn't speaking and didn't know English, but then when I
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did learn English, it was my favourite show from straight away. John Pertwy was probably the
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Doctor at the time and it very quickly became my favourite programme and when I was about eight years
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old, a neighbour who used to write for the Daily Express, she managed to get a letter I wrote
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published in the paper and it was about Doctor Who, I was complaining that Mary White House should
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not be basically telling people that Doctor Who was too scary, I was only eight and I loved it
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even though I had to watch behind the sofa sometimes. And most recently I've written and published
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Doctor Who book called Doomsday Extruction Point and Doomsday is a whole kind of side series
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just to come out over this last summer and we'll talk about that later but I've also
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read that book. And we also joined by Steve Cole. Steve, tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Hello, I'm Steve, children's book author also and editor as well and back in the late 1990s,
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I was the editor in charge of BBC Book's Doctor Who Output and since 2017, I found myself
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as consultant editor to the BBC Book's range of Doomsday Who Output. So I get to work with everyone
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putting out all sorts of titles whether it's the big coffee table books or the target novelisations
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or brand new novels or indeed novels written by stars of Doctor Who as well. My relationship with
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it goes back right to the start of my existence I think. My first memory is of watching Doctor Who
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in 1975 as a little three-year-old and I've watched it ever since for some reason I didn't
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grow out of it. I understood that people were supposed to do that but I stayed with it right to its
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final episodes in 1989 and yes, then helped it through those walls in this years in print
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looking out at video and audio as well. And finally writing novels for Chris Ferguson's Doctor
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when it came back and onwards since. Yeah, that's actually that sort of the break from 1989 until
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it came back. There was a Paul McGahn film wasn't there and then it came back again with Christopher
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Eccleston and I think the timing there for our generation is that it came back when we a lot of
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us had kids. So there was a thing sitting down again with the next generation to watch it together
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which was I certainly remember. But my doctor I think I do remember John Puttwee just
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but I think I really started to understand the program with Tom Baker. Yeah, so he was sort of
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my doctor. I do remember one absolutely terrifying experience as a child that I went to a Christmas
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party. My dad was in the police and there was a police family's Christmas party big thing in
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some London venue and they thought to entertain the kids, they had a Dalek at the bottom of the stairs.
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And I was absolutely terrified. I didn't want to go in the hall. I just the whole party was just
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I thought it's going to come in at the tech because it's three or four whatever I was. The idea
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of the Dalek is like a fun thing that you walk past was just you know, terrifying. So that's one
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of my abiding memories. So it certainly had the power to scare definitely. So it's fascinating
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that the series has spawned a sort of world around it of books and what have you because
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I know that's happened for other outputs like Star Trek and Star Wars and other things
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rather than being an IP that then gets turned into a TV program. So should we just have a quick
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look? Because I know the books follow different doctors, which we have a quick look at all the
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different doctors. I think there are now, if you count David Tennant again, I think there are now
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15 raffliners. And he's a 14th doctor. So you have to count. Yeah. So going back to the past,
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who was the very first for those who are a bit involved? It was the very first doctor who
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went back in 1963. What's interesting about Doctor Who is that we got this reputation as being
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very patrician and very, you know, the prevailing sort of like dominance of what actually started
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off very differently with the very first female producer at the BBC was in charge of it. And the
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first director who I'll translate on to the screen was Anglo-Indian. So it's and very, very young
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because none of the funny daddies at the BBC really wanted to have anything to do with this.
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So it became the brainchild and this old gravitation point for a lot of young energetic
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zeitgeist-busting people. And I think that it infuses Doctor Who in an end you right from the start.
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The Daleks came along in the very second story. So at the end of the fifth episode ever made,
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you've got Dalek's sarcastic straying into shot and they kind of became synonymous ever since,
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probably without the Daleks. It would never have taken off. But the producers didn't want Doctor
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Who to be about bug-eyed monsters and aliens. And so they were desperately against the Daleks
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story where which they thought was everything iffy and, you know, bad about science fiction.
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Whereas in fact, it was the success of the Daleks literary overnight that made the shows
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fortunes and made fortunes for the BBC in terms of merchandise sales. So they left Doctor Who
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to worry to Lambert and her team pretty early on and it kind of placed its own way ever since.
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And William Hartnell played it like a grandfather. He was a grandfather in it, wasn't he? So
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He was, yes. Again, people say, oh, Doctor Who's, you know, is this sexless,
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ageless man, but he's very clearly set up as having a grand daughter right from the start.
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We know that he's from another planet, but we don't know anything else about him or the stuff
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about time and odds and his own planet of Gallifrey didn't come along until the right of the end of
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the 1960s, 1969, with Patrick Trouton's last story, Patrick Trouton being, of course, the second
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Doctor Who, a rejuvenated version of the first with a completely different personality.
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So I've heard him refer to as like a clownish Doctor Who. Is that, would that be fair? Yes, yes.
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Yeah, William Hartnell, who returns later in one of the first joint Doctor Who episodes in the
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early 70s, says the John Perth was the dandy and Patrick Trouton's the clown. So
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Exactly. Yes, he was, and he had a much more, that sort of softer approach when William Hartnell
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could sort of like, you know, stare and bluster and be very gruff, but Trouton's Doctor was much
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more kind of playful and basically lulled his enemies into completely underestimating his powers.
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So he was very comedic, but also very fierce in his mission to defeat the terrors of the universe,
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you know, because the Doctor goes from being, somebody doesn't really want to get involved in
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in the events of things and is very worried about changing history to basically being someone
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who stirs things up and changes status quo all over the universe, which is eventually the time
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laws catch up with him and exile him to earth and turn him into John Perth. We, the dandy, as you
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mentioned. Yeah, and there's a sign of the Mr. Toad about John Perth. We, isn't there? Even down to
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driving a little car. There's a sort of, it's slightly zany aspect to him. MJ, you said he was
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your Doctor, so how would you characterize John Perth? Well, I wouldn't say it was the first one I
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started watching, but I don't think I really understood Doctor who, because I was very young,
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until, until sort of the last season of John Perth, we probably, I remember the one that had
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the green death. Is that the last season? Oh, it's the end of his been ultimate season, but yes,
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it was. So that's when I was starting to pay attention. And if you remember, because he was
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exiled to earth, all of those early adventures took place on earth, so they were just, you know,
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earth-based. Yeah. So when it started to be about sort of, you know, going to outer space and
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stuff, and I mean, that really surprised me, because that, you know, that wasn't the concept that I
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had on the show. Um, that's really interesting, isn't it? They did it to save money on, uh,
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eight-minute sets, yeah. And, uh, when I just thought it was set on earth, and it was, you know,
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I thought he was part of you, you know, I thought it was basically a show about him. Um,
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so I just, I do remember really liking Joe. When I go back from watching those episodes,
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it's not, they're not quite as good as I remember. So I think probably I'm a more
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gotten into Doctor who properly, when I was really understanding, you know, who he was,
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and he was a time traveler who wasn't, you know, who wasn't actually trapped on earth anymore.
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Yeah, although I was quite proud about, you know, when planning to the spiders happened,
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and he regenerated, because again, I didn't know that he regenerated. So I was like, what's
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happening? What's happening, you know, and then this is new guy with a weird scarf, and you know,
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you know, I think it was, you know, when you know Joe, you know, that's happening. No,
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could Sarah Jane was there was ingenuity, wasn't she? Did you like Sarah Jane?
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I love Sarah Jane. It doesn't look Sarah Jane. Well, I said, you know, I think she really must have
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helped a lot of people cope with that trauma of John Paul. Yes, I mean,
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they're quite upset when Joe wasn't in it anymore. You know, so one of these things are not
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something that you expect. They are, and you know, a child, they're a bit of a shock, but
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I think some of the best writing in Doctor Who comes in the, uh, John poet,
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I said season 12, carbon 13 with the Philip Hinchcliffe period, when you've got that,
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so just a certainly brilliant writing. And of course David Malone, who then went on to produce
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Blake seven, he's got a big hand in that. So I kind of like enterination, still writing.
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So, you know, yeah, there's a lot of personnel crossing over from there. There's a lot of,
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yeah, so Blake seven kind of came out of that era of Doctor Who. We need to get going,
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because we've only reached number three and we've got a long way to go. So we've got Tom Baker,
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who in a sense combines an element of the dandism of John Pertwee with his long coat and his,
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his scarf, but with the sort of, in fact, actually, he's like an amalgamation all of them,
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because he's got a sort of clownish, dangerous aini, zany rather than a clown, I think, energy to him.
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But he also has an element of sort of gruff, gruffness to him. I think he's less,
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let's say, as a person than save the John Pertwee. That's a good call. I think Tom Baker kind of
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wanted to emphasize the alien qualities of the Doctor, and that he wouldn't always respond,
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as a human would respond to something. So if someone died being crushed by, you know,
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a robotic Egyptian mummy, well, Sarah Jane is there feeling terribly sorry for the poor chat.
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There's Doctor Zeng, well, I told him it was no good. I told him that, you know, this would have,
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but you know, and she says, oh, sometimes you're not. He says, human, because of course, he's not.
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You know, he's seeing the wider picture that the entire world is going to die, unless the,
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in this case, Soutik is not, is not stopped. So he's always got his eye on the, on the greater picture.
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I mean, although he defends humanity, the collateral damage is, is something that's,
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that perhaps seems to matter less to him, as long as he gets the job done and saves the planet.
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And, you know, he sends himself up a lot and, you know, he's basically this Bohemian
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bit of a tent he running around, having a wonderful time, saving planets and answering to nobody.
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So he was a great anarchic presence and, you know, hugely.
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Yeah, definitely an anarchic is perfect for him.
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13:51
I have the impression. I didn't check before we came on the call, but he did serve quite a long
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time as Doctor Who, didn't he? It's at the record. Is he the longest serving?
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Yeah, so that fits in my impression. And then, of course, he hands over to
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where are you going to? Peter Davidson, of course. Yes, how could we forget?
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Peter Davidson, and that was the shock of choosing a much younger, it was a rejuvenation
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literally of the Doctor Who. And I do remember there being quite a lot of controversy at the time,
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similar to what happens when Max Miff took over from David Tennant, but they went young.
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And when you think of what had come before, it was even a bigger shock because they've come from
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of quite an old grandfather to being a quite dashing young man. In fact, I remember he was
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being very attracted to him, you know, a bit of an idol for us little girls.
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So what kind of qualities? I think of him as young, caring, sort of more softer.
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Yeah, he kind of went around. It felt like events were getting away from him the whole time.
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Tom Baker always felt like he was kind of in charge, but I think David's instructor seemed
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a lot more vulnerable. And I think that was very... I think that period goes through a whole
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kind of onsite, a bit like with them, with 13. Joe, do you think that? Yeah, most of the time he's
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with, you know, quite, you know, a bigger group, he's got three assistants or three companions.
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And so you've got more of a kind of family feel to the show at that point. And I think you
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rely on some of the others. Yeah. And of course, it went twice weekly at that point. It was almost
15:32
in the soap opera slot that was to come. I think they were using Doctor Who to trial drama
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in a twice a week slot because eventually, of course, he's tenders would take over that positioning.
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But it was a big shock to move Doctor Who from a Saturday and sort of like stick it on
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twice a week midweek. I remember the Doctor Who was only on for three months of the year. So
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that was a big loss to someone like me who was like used to having it on once a week for six
15:55
months. That was, I thought I was losing a lot of Doctor Who even though it was, it was about
16:01
as much, it was just, it was so much more quickly, you had to wait, you had to wait in those days
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for these things to come back. Yeah, well, we think now, don't we? Though everything is always
16:10
available at all times. And then we go to the next baker who is Colin Baker, if I'm getting this
16:17
right to correct me if I get this wrong. And I don't think he was Doctor Who for that long.
16:24
Was he a couple of seasons? Yes, it was a difficult time for the show because Michael
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Grade as control of BBC One postponed it, put it on hiatus for 18 months. So and you know,
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cited too much violence and there was rumors of some personal antipathy towards the
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collection team and to Colin Baker as the doctor. Colin had a plan to make his doctor who was,
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you know, quite again, very irassable and alien at first to sort of soften him up over several years,
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which unfortunately didn't come about because, as you say, he only did the two seasons and at the end of
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it was basically told he had to go and make way for a new doctor. So it was not amicable in any way.
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And so best of all, he came along in 1987. And there was no real regeneration scene for the first
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time in the show's history because Colin Baker quite rightly thought, well, I'm not coming back just
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a couple of episodes to be killed off. I need to find new work, you know. So it felt like Doctor
17:28
Who was becoming, you know, a bit wired in too much real world stuff around that time,
17:32
the scene had worn off and it had become, you know, it felt, it seemed like it was less popular or
17:40
not being watched for the right reasons by, you know, I don't know, it just felt like it was
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dwindling a bit. It was a sad time, I felt. I don't think I watch very much of this,
17:49
so that's still less than the court season because I, particularly in the whole trial of a time
17:53
Lloyd season, I just did not like that at all, which was the last Colin Baker. I just thought
17:59
of goodness sake, you know. So after that, I was not, I was only watching it sort of sporadically.
18:04
I really liked days, I have to say, I did like her, but I was, you know, I was kind of checking out
18:08
why then. Yes, it was, I think it's difficult because I remember when Sylvester McCoy came along,
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I think I was 16 and, you know, discovering girls. And for the first time, I, I think,
18:20
is that season, I very nearly forgot to tune in, which I found a very shocking event, which
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rocked me into my philosophically appropriate, my core, you know. It happened to me then,
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and one time later when I'll tell you about it later, if we get to it, but, yeah, that,
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that was the only time I kind of stopped. And she's like, oh, it's time for Doctor Who,
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let's watch it or taping it for something, I was just like, if I see it, I see it, you know.
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Yeah, I think it seemed less essential perhaps, and it was scheduled by that point,
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opposite coronation street, which is kind of the kiss of death because coronation street was,
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you know, the watch coronation street in those days. Well, yeah. So more people did, more people did
18:55
than Doctor Who sadly. So it went like that, that sort of like four, three, five million people
18:59
watching, and it just wasn't enough to just to find a continued production. And by then,
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there was only four stories a year. It was, it was, you know, about 14 episodes a year. So it was
19:10
very much, you know, a shadow of its former self creatively. It was doing new things. It was
19:15
just there wasn't the audience wanting to watch. So it was going to serve mismatch really as
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the Azeates play out. It does, it does go into a pattern, not a creative decline, but certainly
19:27
of popularity loss. And so Vester McCoy, I think we're back with the more clownish doctor again,
19:35
a bit like Patrick Trouton. People probably know Vester McCoy from, when he appeared in the Hobbits,
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oh, no, was it the Hobbit? Yeah, I think he was in the Hobbit films, wasn't he?
19:48
Later on, yes. As Radagast, one of the wizards. And he's very good at physical comedy and
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charming sort of performer. But it was definitely taking the Doctor away from a figure of authority
20:02
to something much more fay. And I think that wasn't, that drifted quite far from the original premise,
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I think. Yes, it did go over early comedic at times. And they tried to, ironically,
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so Vester McCoy's doctor becomes quite dark in his last season in terms of being like an archivist.
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I'm very pessimistic, doesn't I? Yeah, I'm brooding. But I actually heard Colin Baker and
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Vester McCoy recently referred themselves out there because they trusted their performances.
20:35
Two Peter Davison's, I think Colin Baker said, I was a custard tart, and McCoy said, I was
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a custard pie, but that was, he was just quite a, quite a sweet sign up at their different
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approaches. So we're just touch very lightly on, there's a Paul McGahn film, and Paul McGahn.
20:53
I'm some doctor. The handsome doctor. It's a snogging doctor. I mean, that, that caused some
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chipwaves today. You're a romantic doctor, but I run a doctor. Yeah, there's very much. I have never
21:05
seen the film, so I'm not sure what I'm missing. Oh, I think it's fascinating, really. I mean,
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it was made in America. It was a pre-production with the BBC. So it feels, it does feel more
21:17
American, definitely, because all the cast are American. Well, those who want Canadian pretending
21:21
to be American. I'm not sure they break with the set design as well for the TARDIS, isn't it?
21:25
That's where they can have them. And you're like, wow, you're up. It goes a lot more,
21:30
Jules Verne. I mean, it's going to tragic. They didn't get to go to a full series. I know that,
21:35
I mean, I came to Dr. Professionally in the wake of the Paul McGahn movie because, you know,
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in 1997, the year after, it still wasn't certain the doctor who wouldn't come back. So we were
21:47
BBC Books took over the publishing of the original novels at that point, and I became their editor.
21:54
And we were hoping that it would come back and be a huge hit all over again, but as it was,
22:00
there was longer to wait until Dr. Who did come back led by a bus on T Davis and launching in April
22:07
2005. Yeah, so let's pick up there. So this is probably where many of the people listening to this,
22:14
they're probably have seen most of these we're going to talk about now. So I've lost count of
22:19
which number doctor we're on, but number nine. Thank you. Number nine. So the choice of
22:26
Russell T. Davis, I don't know what he had done before. What would he've been writing?
22:33
Yeah, he's done all sorts, yeah. But not known for science fiction.
22:40
He wasn't known for science fiction. This was the amazing thing because people were saying,
22:43
why would you want to go to something like Doctor Who, which was actually in languishing?
22:46
It was a fanboy. He'd been a massive fan when he was a kid. I think he even wrote fiction,
22:50
so he was a fanboy. You're right. One of the original Doctor Who novels for Virgin Publishing as
22:55
well. So he was, yeah, he'd always been, he's been a fan, but I think professionally it was like,
23:01
well, you know, if anyone can bring Doctor Who back as, as a kind of like a way to reinvigorate
23:07
the Saturday night schedules and get all the family watching again, which of course Doctor Who's
23:11
purpose used to be. It was there to bring all the family together ready for the rest of the line
23:16
up in BBC One. You know, when you go into the generation game, all the two Ronnies or the Duchess
23:19
of Duke Street or all these old shows. Oh, right. These are bars for the past. Yeah, but we hadn't
23:24
had anything like that for a time because Doctor Who had dotted around all over the schedule. So
23:27
when it was back on a Saturday and then he would run into the National Lottery or to strictly
23:31
or whatever else was going to come on, it was, it became very quickly a very strong part of that.
23:37
And I think parents rediscovered the joy of being able to sit down and watch something with their
23:41
kids and everyone being glued to the screen, you know, it was, it was a lovely time.
23:46
But the Eccleston Doctor number nine, as I now know, I think he really did take a step away from
23:53
the other doctors in the first modern one. All the others had an element of retro about them.
24:00
Their clothing referring to different periods, longer lines, sort of Victorian,
24:05
frock coat type dresses, you know, Edwardian gentlemen, Victorian. They had this sort of
24:12
air of the past about them. Whereas the night's doctor comes in with his leather jacket and sort of
24:19
modern skinny outlook, Northern accent. And suddenly you feel, oh yeah, well, of course the doctor
24:25
can regenerate as somebody who's a contemporary and not from the southeast. Exactly, which was
24:32
all Scotland, which was the other place. I think that was part of Russell's genius and that was
24:38
to take, it's an absolutely modern take on it. There's no, even though he's using like past
24:46
monsters, he uses the autons who launched John Pertwee's first story, but there's no knowledge
24:50
of that requires. All you find out in that story is that there's this mysterious alien you can
24:55
travel in time and space. He tells it all through the point of view of Billy Piper's rose,
25:00
so it's a very modern character, representing her outlook. And he's drawn into the story just
25:05
like the audience is. So I'm seeing discovers, you know, how dangerous it is and how exciting it is
25:10
and the audience, you know, discover that with her. So by making it so accessible and by absolutely
25:18
positing the doctor as a no frills, northern force of super nature, really powering through
25:26
adventures, you know, just a leather jacket and a t-shirt and jeans, you know, as he doesn't need
25:30
a frock coat, he doesn't need, you know, so many of the trappings that he acquired over the years
25:37
were kind of like cut away and I think that that helped the programme resonate with the brand new
25:42
audience. And we must sort of do a nod here to Billy Piper. I think she was so excellent in the
25:49
the relaunch because she felt like a person who you might know, whereas the other companions had been
25:57
I suppose Sarah Jane was a bit like that as well, but there had been quite a few
26:02
singular choices in, by a concept companions, yes. But she worked in a shop and just seemed like
26:13
an ordinary girl, she had her family, convincing family and a boyfriend. So it felt like
26:21
this could happen to you. Exactly. Going through the wardrobe is a kid, it felt like that,
26:29
you could be the doctor's companion. By seeing the effects on her family and by sticking with
26:36
those human points of view, it made it so much more relatable to a wider cross section of
26:41
the public than ever before. It with Russell's era, it's you'll notice that humans feature in
26:48
pretty much every story. So there's always a point of view and also you don't, very rarely, you cut
26:55
away to shots of monsters talking to each other, explaining the plot to each other, you don't get
27:00
piles of walking latex, hogging the camera is generally told through a human perspective,
27:08
which again just makes it that much more relatable and believable I think.
27:12
I don't know if it was the first series or when she's with David Tennant, but I remember a very
27:17
powerful storyline about her and grief trying to change history because of her father.
27:23
Yes, that was with Augustine called Father's Day written by Paul Cornell.
27:27
It's an amazing story and it's so profound. I just don't often go to, I think this is where
27:36
Doctor who changed for me, I remember it's scaring me before and I think in the 2000s it started
27:42
moving me. There are several episodes I can say, yeah, I found that really moving,
27:49
the tears well up and actually getting that emotional response from the audience is amazing,
27:53
I think. Yeah, but I was upset when the Dalek was to kill itself in the first
27:59
straight episode of the Dalek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
28:03
absolutely beautiful episode and who would think, I remember Eccleston going on Jonathan Ross
28:08
his tea chat show and saying, you know, you will, it is a tear jerker and you know, we're making
28:14
fun of him saying, well, how can Dalek be a tear jerker? If you watch that episode, it's beautifully
28:18
done. Yeah, and it is very sad, the tragedy of this Dalek, it makes you realize that, you know,
28:23
but they're not, but they're not as hot as feelings too. Exactly, villains aren't,
28:28
are often to themselves, they, they have their own purpose and their own mission, but they're,
28:32
you know, they see them say every villain sees themselves as the hero and their own narrative,
28:35
and if you can't do what is a Dalek does, then that's a, you know, that's a tragedy going to feel
28:40
if, if you've been touched by Billy Piper as that poor Dalek was, clearly there are consequences.
28:53
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