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Pacific Islands Marine Monument Rollback and Court Reversal Explained · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
On today's
0:00
episode we're
0:01
gonna be finding
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out what the hell
0:02
is going on with
0:03
the Pacific
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Islands Heritage
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Marine National
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Monument
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in the US
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In the Pacific
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Islands. This is
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something that
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has been
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unprecedented
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It's been
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protected for
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over 10 years and
0:12
all of a sudden
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on day one of his
0:14
presidency
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Donald Trump
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opened it up for
0:16
fishing because
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he wanted the
0:17
United States to
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be number one in
0:18
fishing in
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the Pacific
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What is that
0:20
going to do to
0:21
the protected
0:22
area to all the
0:23
stuff that
0:24
happened in the
0:24
particular area
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when it was
0:25
shut down?
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Do we even know
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if fish grew in
0:28
numbers in size
0:29
during that
0:30
protection?
0:31
We need more
0:32
science to do
0:32
this and Angela
0:33
Villa Gomez for
0:34
the Center of
0:34
American Progress
0:35
is here to
0:35
talk about
0:36
Why we need more
0:37
science and
0:38
monitoring during
0:38
this time and
0:39
we're gonna talk
0:40
about the core
0:40
case that
0:41
actually shut
0:41
down the
0:42
opening of this
0:43
Marine National
0:43
Monument and
0:44
we're gonna talk
0:45
about it on
0:45
today's episode
0:45
of the how to
0:46
protect the ocean
0:46
podcast. Let's
0:48
start the show
0:50
Hey everybody,
0:51
welcome back to
0:51
another exciting
0:52
episode of the
0:52
how to protect
0:53
the ocean podcast
0:53
I'm your host
0:54
Andrew Lewin and
0:55
this is the
0:55
podcast where you
0:55
find out what's
0:56
happening with
0:56
the ocean how you
0:57
can speak up for
0:58
The ocean what
0:58
you can do to
0:59
live for a better
1:00
ocean by taking
1:01
action on
1:02
today's episode
1:03
We are going to
1:04
be talking about
1:04
the Pacific
1:05
Islands Heritage
1:05
Marine National
1:07
Monument
1:07
in the US
1:08
This has been
1:09
something that
1:09
has been around
1:10
the news since
1:11
day one of the
1:12
Donald Trump's presidency
1:13
Where he erased
1:14
the US commitment
1:15
to 30 by 30 the
1:17
global goal to
1:18
protecting?
1:19
30% of land and
1:21
sea by 2030 not
1:22
long after his
1:23
administration
1:23
Turned his
1:24
attention to the
1:25
Pacific Islands
1:25
Heritage Marine
1:26
National Monument
1:27
one of the
1:28
largest fully
1:28
protected marine
1:29
areas in the
1:30
world
1:30
spanning over
1:31
1.3 square miles
1:33
of protected area
1:34
for a decade
1:35
These waters had
1:35
been off-limits
1:36
to commercial
1:37
fishing serving
1:38
as a sanctuary
1:38
for corals
1:39
pelagic fish and
1:40
countless
1:41
migratory species
1:42
But on April 17
1:43
2025 Trump issued
1:45
a proclamation
1:46
109
1:47
108 declaring
1:48
that commercial
1:49
fishing in the
1:50
monuments
1:50
expansion area
1:51
posed no risk to
1:52
scientific or
1:53
historical objects
1:54
This opened the
1:55
door for fishing
1:56
between 50 and
1:57
200 nautical
1:58
miles
1:58
around Wacotl
1:59
Johnson atoll and
2:00
Jarvis Island
2:01
waters that had
2:02
once been
2:02
completely
2:03
protected the
2:04
proclamation
2:05
Directed Noah and
2:06
the Western
2:07
Pacific fishery
2:08
management
2:08
council to
2:09
rewrite the rules
2:10
weighing options
2:11
from keeping
2:12
Protections in
2:12
place to removing
2:13
them entirely
2:14
It was the first
2:15
day and only
2:17
rollback of
2:17
marine protection
2:18
under Trump and
2:19
it sparked
2:20
immediate
2:20
lawsuits from
2:21
conservation
2:22
groups
2:23
Then just two
2:23
weeks ago the
2:24
court struck down
2:25
Trump's
2:25
proclamation on a
2:26
technicality
2:27
Reclosing the
2:28
monument to
2:29
fishing at least
2:30
for now the case
2:31
highlights
2:32
How fragile these
2:33
protections can
2:33
be when created
2:34
by presidential
2:35
proclamation
2:35
instead of
2:36
legislation and
2:37
it raises larger
2:38
concerns
2:39
What does this
2:39
mean for the US
2:40
commitment
2:40
to 30 by 30?
2:42
How much power
2:43
should presidents
2:44
have to undo
2:45
decades of
2:46
conservation
2:46
progress and what
2:47
happens to the
2:48
fish corals and
2:49
communities that
2:50
depend on
2:51
these waters?
2:52
Today we are
2:52
going to explore
2:53
the politics
2:54
science and the
2:55
future of marine
2:56
protection in the
2:57
Pacific Islands
2:57
Heritage Marine
2:58
National Monument
2:59
by speaking to
2:59
Angela Villa
3:00
Gomez a good
3:00
Friend of the
3:01
podcast and
3:01
myself who's from
3:03
the Center of
3:03
American Progress
3:04
in Washington DC
3:05
He's gonna be
3:06
talking about the
3:07
US monument
3:08
He's gonna be
3:08
talking about how
3:09
important it is
3:09
and why we need
3:10
to find out more
3:11
about just
3:12
getting science
3:13
data and
3:14
understanding
3:14
What has happened
3:15
over the last 10
3:16
years with the
3:17
expansion of the
3:18
monument and how
3:19
that's helped or
3:20
maybe not helped
3:21
fish in general
3:22
for growing in
3:23
number and size
3:24
and we're
3:24
gonna just
3:25
discuss a lot of
3:25
the things that
3:26
are happening in
3:27
the US and how
3:27
that could be a
3:28
distraction
3:28
because there's
3:29
so much
3:29
going on and
3:30
How it could be a
3:30
distraction to
3:31
making sure that
3:32
this marine
3:32
protected area
3:33
stays closed
3:33
So we're gonna
3:34
talk all that in
3:35
this episode.
3:36
Here's the
3:36
interview with
3:37
Angelo Villa
3:37
Gomez enjoy and I
3:38
will talk to you
3:39
after hey Angelo
3:40
Welcome back to
3:41
the how to
3:42
protect the ocean
3:42
podcast. Are you
3:43
ready to talk
3:44
about marine
3:45
sanctuaries? I am
3:46
It's been a hot
3:47
minute since I
3:48
saw you. I think
3:48
the last time we
3:49
talked we were
3:50
both in France
3:50
together
3:51
Yes, the UN ocean
3:53
conference.
3:53
That's right, and
3:54
we were actually
3:55
jumping
3:55
into the water
3:57
That's right. We
3:58
did not win. No
3:59
because we were
4:01
we were
4:01
participating
4:02
in the
4:04
the manu the
4:05
international
4:05
manu competition
4:06
which is
4:07
manu is a
4:09
Polynesian word
4:09
of jumping into
4:11
the ocean means
4:11
bird, but it's a
4:12
style of jumping
4:13
in the ocean and
4:15
New Zealand and
4:16
you and I are not
4:18
from New Zealand
4:19
No, and we you
4:21
were the Canadian
4:22
purchase was I
4:22
was I was the
4:23
American
4:24
participant
4:25
And we did not
4:26
win. It was a
4:27
good time. We've been
4:27
times had life
4:28
It was it I mean
4:29
you're you were
4:29
jumping off like
4:31
it wasn't
4:31
too high
4:32
You were much
4:33
braver than than
4:34
the rest of us
4:34
were by just
4:35
jumping off that
4:36
first cliff
4:36
wasn't that high
4:38
Beautiful water
4:39
nice and
4:39
refreshing
4:40
It was nice to do
4:40
it at a
4:41
conference where
4:42
we get to have
4:42
some fun as well
4:43
and it was
4:43
great people
4:44
So that was that
4:45
was a lot of fun.
4:45
But like
4:46
let's talk
4:47
Before we start
4:48
this the way you
4:49
jump in you got
4:50
to go like butt
4:51
first like first
4:52
Yeah, that's the
4:53
the biggest
4:54
splash. Yeah, so
4:55
when I was
4:56
growing
4:56
up as a kid
4:56
I thought a
4:57
cannonball right
4:58
was the been
4:59
slow, right?
4:59
So you sort of
4:59
like you tuck in
5:00
with hands and
5:01
then boom you hit
5:02
the water
5:03
and splash
5:04
We've done it
5:05
wrong our
5:05
entire lives
5:06
But foods the
5:07
best splash is
5:10
achieved by
5:11
putting your
5:12
derriere into the
5:13
water first
5:14
Which is not that
5:16
easy, right?
5:16
Like you got to
5:17
get a jump
5:17
in the air
5:18
So like there's
5:18
you know, you
5:19
gotta get some
5:19
lift and some
5:20
distance and then
5:21
flip your legs
5:22
out in front of
5:23
you and land
5:24
Yeah
5:25
But first and not
5:26
on your back
5:27
because that
5:27
would hurt even
5:28
more, you know,
5:29
but so you got to
5:30
like be
5:30
pretty good
5:31
It takes some
5:32
practice. I did
5:33
not practice. I
5:34
was not good. I
5:34
did one thing and
5:35
I'm like, I'm out
5:36
I gotta go but
5:37
that was that was
5:38
a lot of fun, but
5:38
we're not here to
5:39
talk about that
5:40
Although that was
5:41
very fun. We
5:41
should probably
5:42
we could probably
5:42
do an entire
5:43
episode on that
5:44
We are here to
5:45
talk about a
5:46
marine protected
5:46
areas in
5:47
particular a
5:48
marine sanctuary
5:49
called the
5:49
Pacific Island
5:50
Heritage Marine
5:51
National Monument
5:52
Quite quite a
5:54
title, but also
5:55
it represents a
5:56
lot. So Angela
5:57
before we get
5:58
started with that
5:59
Can you just tell
6:00
me just remind
6:02
the audience who
6:02
you are and
6:03
what you do?
6:04
My name is
6:05
Angelo. I live in
6:07
Washington DC
6:08
work for an
6:08
organization
6:09
called Center for
6:10
Marine Center for
6:11
American Progress
6:12
And I'm an ocean
6:13
advocate and I
6:15
was actually at
6:15
the designation
6:16
at the very
6:17
beginning of the
6:18
Pacific Islands
6:19
Heritage Marine
6:19
National Monument
6:21
I went to the
6:22
White House and I
6:24
was an advocate
6:24
for Mariana
6:25
Trench Marine
6:25
National Monument
6:27
Right the
6:28
president George
6:28
W Bush in his
6:30
last two
6:30
weeks office
6:32
designated three
6:33
large protected
6:34
areas out in the
6:35
Pacific Ocean
6:36
In US waters and
6:38
I got to watch
6:39
him sign the
6:40
piece of paper
6:41
that actually
6:42
created this big
6:44
protected area
6:44
and it is the US
6:47
has a number of
6:48
different islands
6:49
out in
6:49
the Pacific
6:50
Everyone's heard
6:51
of Hawaii
6:52
We also have Guam
6:53
the Northern
6:53
Mariana Islands
6:54
American Samoa,
6:55
but there's also
6:56
this series of
6:57
seven
6:58
uninhabited islands
7:00
And they're they're
7:01
collectively
7:01
called the
7:01
Pacific remote
7:02
islands area
7:04
and it's like
7:05
wake at
7:06
all Jarvis
7:08
Palmyra Kingman
7:09
at all and
7:11
President Bush
7:12
created a marine
7:14
protected air
7:14
very large marine
7:15
protected area
7:16
around all seven
7:17
of these islands
7:18
that they're not
7:18
contiguous
7:19
And so it was
7:20
like five
7:20
different big
7:21
squares out in
7:22
the middle of the
7:22
ocean, right?
7:23
And then a few
7:25
years later we
7:25
had a new
7:26
president. Barack
7:27
Obama was
7:27
president and he
7:29
made three of
7:30
those five
7:31
big squares into
7:33
giant circles
7:34
They initially
7:35
went out from
7:36
shore to 50 miles
7:37
and he extended
7:38
them out to 200
7:39
miles.
7:40
Okay, and then
7:42
President Trump
7:45
Donald Donald J.
7:46
Trump came into
7:47
the White
7:47
House and
7:49
He's threatened
7:50
all of America's
7:51
public lands and
7:52
waters. He said
7:53
we're going to
7:54
drill baby drill
7:56
We're gonna mine
7:57
the deep sea
7:58
and the first
8:01
Action that he
8:01
took against
8:02
public lands and
8:03
waters was to
8:04
open up a big
8:06
chunk of this
8:07
protected
8:07
area to fishing
8:09
when Obama
8:11
Expanded it he
8:12
expanded it to
8:12
1.3 million
8:14
square kilometers
8:16
And Trump opened
8:17
up about a
8:18
million of that
8:19
to fishing. So
8:20
more than half
8:21
this is
8:21
this is yeah
8:22
One million out
8:30
of 1.3. So 1.3.
8:31
Sorry those
8:31
talking about
8:32
1.8. Yeah,
8:32
yeah, yeah
8:34
7080% yeah, so
8:35
that was back in
8:36
April and
8:38
the
8:40
Government office
8:41
in Hawaii, not
8:43
Noah they issued
8:44
a letter to all
8:45
the fishermen
8:45
Permit holders
8:46
and said you can
8:47
now fish in this
8:48
protected area
8:49
And almost
8:50
immediately a
8:51
whole bunch of
8:51
boats like 10 or
8:53
20 went into the
8:54
protected area
8:55
and you can go to
8:56
global
8:56
fishing watch
8:57
Dot-com and you
8:59
can you know put
9:00
in the right
9:00
parameters
9:00
zoom in
9:02
Find the right
9:02
dates and you can
9:04
see those fishing
9:04
vessels. Yeah,
9:05
they're in there
9:06
and they're
9:07
catching tuna
9:08
They're based in
9:09
Hawaii going down
9:11
to the
9:11
protected area
9:12
Which is a couple
9:12
thought like
9:13
maybe a thousand
9:13
miles away and
9:14
then going back
9:15
up to Hawaii and
9:16
offloading
9:16
their fish
9:18
The conservation
9:19
community was not
9:19
happy about
9:20
this, right?
9:21
And the Trump
9:22
administration
9:22
was sued by
9:23
several groups in
9:24
Hawaii. The
9:26
lawsuit was filed
9:26
by Earth Justice
9:27
Which is a great
9:29
organization
9:30
and
9:32
about two
9:32
weeks ago
9:34
Earth the courts
9:36
decided that the
9:37
Trump
9:37
administration
9:37
had
9:38
broken the law
9:39
When they used
9:40
that letter to
9:41
open this area up
9:42
to fishing
9:43
Because America
9:43
is still a
9:44
country of laws
9:45
and we have a
9:46
fisheries law
9:47
called
9:47
Magnuson Stevens
9:48
And the the Trump
9:49
administration
9:50
had not followed
9:51
the letter
9:52
of the law
9:53
So the judge
9:54
closed the area
9:55
to fishing again.
9:56
So it was opened
9:58
up in April shut
10:00
down a couple of
10:00
weeks ago
10:02
and
10:03
now
10:06
There the fishing
10:08
interests are
10:09
Trying to get
10:10
that process
10:11
going that you
10:12
know that legal
10:13
government
10:13
process that
10:14
could open this
10:15
area to fishing
10:16
and we're seeing
10:16
that happening
10:17
in real time
10:19
That's a lot that
10:20
happened in such
10:21
a short time, you
10:22
know, like you
10:23
know where
10:24
you know Donald
10:25
Trump President
10:26
Donald Trump
10:26
takes away the
10:29
Or opens it up
10:30
for fishing
10:32
So what's the
10:33
reasoning that he
10:35
used behind
10:35
opening it up? Is
10:36
it more of like
10:37
the drill
10:37
baby bill?
10:38
We're gonna fish
10:38
everything. We
10:39
want to be the
10:39
biggest fisheries
10:40
in a country
10:41
Yeah, that's that's ultimate.
10:43
That's ultimately
10:44
what it comes
10:44
down to. Yeah, is
10:45
that we're going
10:46
to we're gonna
10:47
have energy
10:48
dominance
10:49
We're gonna have
10:49
fisheries
10:49
dominance. We're
10:51
gonna fish
10:51
everywhere
10:52
We're gonna have
10:53
the
10:53
greatest economy
10:55
What it's just
10:56
it's very
10:56
short-sighted
10:57
the United
10:58
States has had
11:00
Protected lands
11:02
and waters for
11:03
the last hundred
11:04
and fifty years
11:04
when our first
11:05
national parks
11:06
were protected
11:07
And we this
11:08
country can
11:09
absolutely have
11:11
the best managed
11:12
fisheries in the
11:13
world and
11:14
the best network
11:15
of
11:16
protected areas
11:17
And and the goals
11:18
of sustainable
11:19
fishing and of
11:21
habitat
11:21
management or
11:22
hand habitat
11:22
protection
11:23
Are not the same,
11:24
you know that
11:25
when you are
11:27
advocating for
11:28
sustainable
11:28
fishing
11:29
What your
11:29
ultimate goal is
11:31
to do, you know,
11:31
I mean it's much
11:32
more complicated
11:33
than this
11:33
Yeah, you want
11:34
you want to get
11:35
to a place where
11:35
you have?
11:36
Sustainable
11:37
fishing. Yeah,
11:37
where the the
11:39
number of fish
11:39
being taken out
11:40
are being
11:41
replaced
11:41
every year
11:42
So that you're
11:43
you have a steady
11:44
catch in
11:45
fishermen can
11:45
have jobs and
11:46
there's fish on
11:47
people's plates
11:49
But the goals of
11:50
conservation are
11:51
often not the
11:52
same, you
11:53
know, they're
11:54
sustainable
11:56
fishing is not a
11:58
net zero or
12:00
it's not a
12:03
Environmentally
12:03
neutral activity
12:04
on there still
12:05
are outcomes to
12:06
it. There's
12:07
bycatch. Yep
12:08
The fish do die
12:10
So, you know,
12:11
there's changes
12:12
in the fisheries
12:12
assemblage. Usually
12:13
you'll see
12:15
Maybe the
12:16
sometimes the
12:16
fish populations
12:17
will go down. But
12:18
sometimes the
12:18
fishes of the
12:18
sizes
12:19
smaller and again
12:21
You know, this is
12:22
different
12:22
depending on the
12:23
stock. So of
12:23
course, yeah, I
12:25
just paint with a
12:25
broad brush for
12:26
everything,
12:26
right?
12:28
But we can have
12:29
fisheries and
12:31
protected areas
12:31
and for the last
12:33
20 years
12:34
it's worked
12:35
The way the
12:36
United States
12:36
manages its tuna
12:38
fisheries in
12:38
the Pacific
12:40
For the boats in
12:41
Hawaii is
12:42
with a quota
12:43
And that quota
12:44
was I think three
12:45
thousand five
12:45
hundred tons. It
12:47
was recently
12:48
increased to
12:48
seven
12:49
thousand tons
12:50
Just this year. I
12:52
Think last year
12:53
before it was
12:54
increased
12:55
doubled. Okay
12:57
They've never had
12:58
an issue reaching
12:59
the quota, right?
13:00
You know this
13:01
they've it's not
13:03
like there's fish
13:04
that are being
13:04
left
13:05
uncaught, right?
13:06
It's the the the
13:08
fleet has
13:09
operated and is
13:10
very successful
13:11
Yeah, and we've
13:12
had these
13:12
protected areas
13:13
at the same
13:14
time, right?
13:15
So with it the
13:15
idea is saying
13:16
hey look we the
13:17
cash per unit
13:18
effort hasn't
13:18
really changed
13:19
They're able to
13:20
meet their quota
13:20
They're able to
13:21
even to double it
13:22
and there and the
13:23
fisheries
13:23
population so far
13:24
the tuna
13:25
population
13:25
is fine
13:26
Because it's well
13:27
managed because
13:27
there's marine
13:28
protected areas
13:28
because of this
13:29
we're looking at
13:30
what how many
13:31
years when was it
13:31
designated?
13:33
2000 Expanded in 15 so
13:38
it's been
13:39
The area that's
13:42
open has been
13:42
closed for like a
13:43
decade. Yeah
13:45
And you know, I'm
13:46
glad you asked
13:46
that question
13:47
because you know,
13:48
one of the
13:48
reasons I wanted
13:48
to talk to you
13:50
Is because this
13:51
area had been
13:52
closed to fishing
13:53
for 10 years.
13:54
Yeah, and then it
13:55
was opened from
13:56
April to
13:57
August and
13:58
Fish were caught
13:59
and I want to see
14:00
that data. Yeah
14:01
for sure because
14:03
It doesn't have
14:04
to be me but I
14:05
want like
14:06
scientists who I
14:07
trust to
14:08
see that data
14:09
Yeah, I'm gonna
14:09
and I could
14:10
actually this
14:10
could be a great
14:10
collaboration
14:11
between MPA
14:12
scientists and
14:13
fishery
14:13
scientists
14:15
Because what the
14:16
fisheries
14:16
scientist what
14:17
the fisheries
14:17
folks are saying
14:18
is that these
14:19
protected areas
14:20
have had no
14:20
benefit to
14:21
the fishery
14:22
You know, they've
14:23
they've been a
14:23
complete waste of
14:24
time. They've
14:24
harmed the
14:25
fishermen
14:26
But what the MPA
14:27
scientists say is
14:28
that they've
14:29
actually
14:30
Led to spillover
14:31
effects that you
14:33
know in the way
14:34
that's been
14:34
measured
14:35
With studies in
14:36
the past
14:37
is has been
14:39
Fishermen are
14:39
fishing the line.
14:40
Yeah right on
14:41
there saying
14:43
By fishing the
14:44
line that's
14:45
evidence that the
14:46
fishermen know
14:47
that there's more
14:48
fish inside the
14:49
protected area
14:49
and fishermen are
14:50
brilliant
14:50
smart people
14:51
Yeah, dedicate
14:52
their entire
14:52
lives to catching
14:53
fish. They know
14:54
how to catch
14:54
fish. They know
14:55
the best ways to
14:56
catch fish
14:56
They know how to
14:57
catch it as fast
14:57
as possible
14:58
So that they can
14:59
make as much
15:00
money as possible
15:00
So I like it when
15:01
fishermen are
15:02
going to the
15:02
borders of marine
15:03
protected areas.
15:04
It's because they
15:05
know something
15:05
Yeah, like it's
15:06
not it's not
15:07
random. Yeah
15:08
But with this
15:09
fisheries data
15:09
that we have for
15:10
these
15:10
couple of months
15:12
Can we look at
15:13
the catch per
15:13
unit effort?
15:14
You know, how
15:15
many hooks were
15:16
dropped in the
15:17
water and how
15:18
many fish were on
15:19
the line?
15:19
And how long did
15:21
they soak those
15:22
hooks in the
15:22
water to catch
15:23
those fish?
15:24
I think that's
15:25
actually pretty
15:26
easy to capture
15:28
and the NOAA used
15:29
to put all that
15:30
data on
15:30
their website
15:31
But the last
15:32
couple years it
15:32
hasn't been there
15:34
I'd also be
15:34
interested in
15:35
looking at the
15:36
sizes of the fish
15:37
that may be a
15:38
little bit more
15:39
difficult
15:40
But when those
15:41
fish are
15:42
offloaded in
15:42
Hawaii and you
15:43
can actually go
15:44
to this port
15:45
It's like the
15:45
coolest thing in
15:46
the world
15:46
It's one of the
15:47
the oldest
15:48
biggest ports for
15:49
fish in the
15:49
United States and
15:50
as the fish come
15:52
off the boat
15:53
Every single one
15:54
of them
15:54
gets a barcode
15:55
So they have some
15:56
of the like this
15:57
amazing data on
15:58
like literally
15:59
individual fish
16:00
for going
16:01
back to it
16:02
Like and with
16:02
that they'll get
16:03
like size and
16:04
length. Yeah.
16:05
Yeah all this
16:05
where it was
16:06
caught. Yeah
16:07
Incredible data
16:08
and then each one
16:09
of those fish
16:10
gets
16:11
auctioned off
16:12
And then you know
16:13
gets into Japan
16:13
it gets into the
16:14
mainland it gets
16:15
eaten in Hawaii.
16:15
Yeah, whatnot
16:18
You know one
16:19
reason that each
16:19
of those fish get
16:20
a barcode by the
16:20
way is because
16:21
they're each fish
16:22
is but as
16:23
valuable as a
16:24
iPhone yeah,
16:25
yeah, they're
16:25
like thousands.
16:26
Yes big tuna that
16:28
go for a
16:29
thousand bucks
16:30
That most high
16:31
quality fish are
16:32
going for real
16:33
high the bycatch
16:34
is going for
16:34
really for
16:35
a lot less
16:36
And then like
16:37
this could
16:37
actually be a
16:38
really
16:38
important moment
16:39
for understanding
16:41
Marine protected
16:42
areas with a
16:44
highly migratory
16:44
species,
16:45
right? Yeah
16:46
um, and you know,
16:48
there's the UN
16:49
General Assembly
16:50
is happening in
16:51
September and
16:53
There's hope that
16:54
enough countries
16:54
will ratify this
16:55
high seas
16:56
agreement
16:56
And there's gonna
16:57
be this push for
16:58
marine protected
16:59
areas on on the
17:01
high seas
17:02
And this is
17:04
fisheries data.
17:05
This is not
17:05
modeling. This is
17:07
not actually
17:08
This is I have
17:10
the number of
17:11
fish that were
17:12
caught. I know
17:12
where it was
17:13
caught. I know
17:13
how big they are
17:17
Will this prove
17:18
that this MPA has
17:19
worked it's been
17:20
10 years. Yeah
17:22
And you know,
17:23
I'll give you
17:24
this like on the
17:24
flip side. What
17:26
if we're wrong?
17:27
Mm-hmm, you know
17:27
that that's also
17:28
important
17:29
If if there's
17:30
been no change in
17:31
the catch per
17:32
unit effort if
17:32
there's been no
17:33
change in the
17:33
size of the fish
17:34
Has this marine
17:35
protected area
17:36
actually been
17:37
effective? I
17:38
mean, that's it.
17:38
That's the big
17:39
that's the big
17:39
question
17:40
And that's what
17:40
science is for
17:41
right? It's so
17:42
it's you prove
17:43
that whether it
17:44
is or not
17:45
Has it been
17:45
effective
17:45
basically if this
17:47
fish have grown
17:48
on average, you
17:49
know,
17:49
they're bigger
17:50
They're they're
17:51
they're longer.
17:51
They're they
17:52
weigh more
17:53
Ideally because
17:54
they haven't been
17:55
touched in 10
17:55
years. So
17:56
they've had a
17:57
Population growth
17:58
and that's the
17:58
beauty about fish
17:59
is that you can
18:00
see that that
18:01
difference pretty
18:02
quickly and we've
18:03
seen that
18:03
in other
18:04
MPAs this one
18:05
that would be
18:06
probably the
18:06
first in the
18:07
Pacific where we
18:07
have this kind of
18:08
long-term study
18:09
Did they have
18:09
information on
18:10
that like because
18:11
Noah has always
18:12
been good with
18:12
information and
18:13
sharing
18:13
information
18:14
Do they have
18:15
information on
18:15
those
18:16
fish before?
18:18
This MPa went in
18:19
before fishing.
18:19
There is yeah,
18:20
there it used to
18:22
all be online. I
18:22
don't know if it
18:23
still is right
18:24
But the data is
18:25
there somewhere
18:27
Yeah, this part
18:27
of the Pacific is
18:28
called the
18:29
Pacific remote
18:29
islands area.
18:31
Yeah, and then
18:31
the long
18:32
line data
18:33
That was online.
18:34
It used to be
18:35
broken up.
18:35
There's the main
18:36
Hawaiian Islands.
18:37
There's the
18:38
Northwest
18:38
Hawaiian Islands
18:39
There's the
18:39
Pacific remote
18:40
islands area and
18:41
then there's the
18:41
high seas
18:42
and so it's
18:43
actually it's
18:44
really
18:44
interesting to go
18:44
into that data
18:45
and you know and
18:46
see the ebb
18:46
and flow of
18:48
You know, what
18:49
are they
18:49
catching? How
18:49
many sharks are
18:50
they catching?
18:50
What's your bike
18:51
edge? Yeah, and
18:52
I'd like I'm
18:54
pretty
18:54
sure there's
18:55
20 30 years of
18:57
that data
18:58
That that one
18:59
could look at so
19:00
yeah, it's really
19:00
incredible. You
19:01
can look at the
19:01
fisheries
19:02
data before
19:03
You know, there's
19:04
no fisheries data
19:05
while it's
19:05
protected right
19:06
then we've got
19:07
these couple of
19:07
months. Yeah
19:09
You know and
19:09
again, you know,
19:10
it's a small
19:11
small chunk.
19:11
Yeah.
19:12
Yeah for sure
19:12
You know, there's
19:13
these fish may be
19:14
seasonal,
19:15
you know
19:16
What was the
19:16
water temperature
19:17
or is it an El
19:18
Nino year? Like,
19:18
you know, there's
19:19
a lot of there's
19:19
a lot of
19:20
variables there
19:20
But there's
19:22
something yeah
19:24
There's also
19:27
Some social
19:27
science that
19:28
could be done,
19:28
you know before
19:30
the opening
19:32
There were a lot
19:32
of claims that
19:33
there would be
19:34
social and health
19:34
benefits for
19:35
American Samoa
19:37
There there's a
19:38
cannery there
19:39
and
19:41
You know one of
19:42
the arguments for
19:43
opening it is
19:43
that you know
19:44
opening up these
19:45
areas to fishing
19:46
would support the
19:48
American Samoan
19:51
Economy and the
19:52
community
19:53
And I'm not a
19:54
social scientist
19:55
right but there
19:56
are social
19:56
scientists who
19:57
may have ideas on
19:59
How do we how do
20:00
we study this? I
20:00
mean, can we do
20:01
interviews? Can
20:02
we look at some
20:02
of the
20:03
economic data?
20:04
When it was
20:05
opened was more
20:07
fish delivered to
20:08
the cannery?
20:10
And again, you know
20:12
complicated yeah
20:13
There's there's
20:15
these tariffs
20:16
You may have
20:17
heard of in the I
20:17
haven't heard
20:18
yeah, not much
20:18
about it.
20:19
Yeah, yeah
20:20
It's possible
20:21
that these
20:22
tariffs are more
20:23
influential than
20:24
like the
20:25
actual fishing
20:26
And again, I'm
20:27
not an economist,
20:27
but you know,
20:28
there are people
20:29
who can
20:29
study this
20:31
But I recently
20:32
had a short piece
20:33
appear in nature
20:36
The Journal of
20:37
Nature by the
20:37
way, okay guys,
20:38
that's huge. Like
20:39
that's a big
20:40
that's a big
20:40
that's a
20:41
big paper
20:42
I
20:43
collaborated with
20:45
two of the MPa
20:46
guide scientists,
20:48
dr. Kirsten and
20:48
dr. Jenna
20:49
and then
20:51
Dr. Steven who's
20:53
one of my
20:53
collaborators
20:54
collaborators on
20:55
many projects.
20:56
He's from Saipan
20:58
Yeah, he's native
20:59
Hawaiian and he's
21:00
now a professor
21:00
at Cornell
21:01
And that was
21:03
basically just
21:04
our claim is like
21:04
hey, you know,
21:05
we're scientists.
21:06
Let's go science
21:07
Yeah now now with
21:08
this like who do
21:10
you like?
21:11
normally
21:12
It'd be Noah that
21:13
would gather this
21:14
data right and
21:15
they would put
21:15
out technical
21:16
reports and so
21:17
forth and then
21:17
they would
21:18
look at that
21:19
So I guess the
21:20
first question is
21:21
how has
21:22
there been?
21:23
Has has have
21:24
researchers been
21:25
allowed in there
21:25
to look at the
21:27
stock while it
21:28
was closed down?
21:29
Because sometimes
21:29
they're allowed
21:30
and sometimes
21:30
they're not.
21:31
Yeah, no
21:31
there was um
21:34
There has been
21:34
some research
21:35
fish fishing
21:36
And I like even
21:38
this year there
21:38
was a permit that
21:39
was submitted to
21:40
do some research
21:41
fishing inside
21:43
The protected
21:43
area. So there is
21:45
some stuff
21:46
out there
21:46
Yeah
21:47
Just to look at
21:47
that size as it's
21:48
kind of grown
21:49
over the 10 years
21:50
or if they've
21:50
grown over that
21:51
over that
21:51
10 years
21:52
The other
21:52
question is like
21:53
since no one
21:53
normally
21:54
does this
21:55
Is there a worry
21:57
that like like
21:58
has the
21:58
government ever
21:58
said that they're
21:59
gonna look at
22:00
this data like
22:01
like the
22:01
government now?
22:02
Like that's in
22:02
that's in
22:03
power. So
22:04
the short
22:05
answer is
22:06
Like we're
22:07
in trouble
22:09
Something like
22:09
one in four Noah
22:11
employees who
22:12
work there in
22:13
January no longer
22:14
work for the
22:15
agency, right?
22:16
And then with the
22:17
doge cuts
22:19
There have just
22:20
been cuts all
22:21
across the agency
22:22
and I have
22:23
Numerous friends
22:25
and colleagues
22:25
who are out of
22:26
work. We're not
22:27
who no longer
22:28
serve in our
22:28
government. So
22:29
You know, I think
22:32
this is
22:32
important. I
22:33
think this is a
22:34
global. I think
22:34
this is globally
22:35
important
22:35
So trying to call
22:36
attention to it
22:38
The government
22:39
has so much
22:40
money, you know,
22:41
the US government
22:42
budget last year
22:43
was like six
22:44
billion dollars
22:45
In philanthropy
22:46
just sorry six
22:47
trillion
22:48
Six trillion
22:57
dollars in Noah
22:58
Had the
22:59
government has
23:00
more money than
23:01
philanthropy. So
23:02
philanthropy
23:03
cannot
23:04
back end
23:04
all of this
23:06
but I I
23:07
think that
23:09
There there
23:10
could be some
23:11
discrete pieces
23:12
that we could
23:13
look at and one
23:14
of those discrete
23:15
pieces that I
23:15
would want to say
23:16
is how does
23:19
that
23:19
fisheries data
23:21
compare to
23:23
Now because like
23:26
Science is
23:26
happening in real
23:27
time. It's
23:28
closed again
23:29
It's probably
23:30
gonna be opened
23:31
again, right?
23:32
Yeah, we'll talk
23:32
about that in
23:33
just a second
23:33
Even if we get
23:34
the you know, get
23:35
the plant in
23:36
place like we
23:36
still need to
23:37
study the future
23:38
And then I also
23:39
think this the
23:40
socioeconomic
23:41
stuff needs to be
23:42
better
23:42
understood because
23:46
There this is
23:47
still a very
23:48
controversial
23:49
protected area
23:49
You know, there
23:51
are some folks
23:51
who would like to
23:52
see it enlarged
23:53
There are some
23:54
people who are
23:54
kind of happy
23:55
with what it is
23:55
and want to see
23:56
the management be
23:56
put in place
23:58
So people have
23:59
very strong
24:00
feelings about
24:00
this and
24:02
there's been
24:03
Some social
24:04
science work
24:05
around the
24:06
Mariana trench
24:06
monument. Yeah,
24:07
there's been a
24:07
lot around the
24:09
papahana mukuakea
24:10
monument
24:10
up in Hawaii
24:11
But but I think
24:13
there's
24:13
opportunities for
24:14
social scientists
24:15
to study this
24:17
And it's
24:17
complicated
24:18
because you know,
24:19
this is it kind
24:20
of appears
24:21
between Hawaii
24:22
Mariana's
24:23
Micronesia
24:24
American Samoa
24:24
and it's it's a
24:26
public trust
24:27
It's not owned by
24:28
any one group of
24:30
Americans. It's
24:31
owned by all of
24:32
the Americans
24:34
in the
24:34
entire country
24:36
And I just think
24:37
there could be
24:38
some greater
24:38
understanding
24:38
that scientists
24:39
could bring to
24:40
what's going on
24:42
To make
24:42
recommendations
24:43
on how we move
24:44
into the future.
24:44
Yeah, I agree
24:46
I think it I mean
24:47
it'd be a study
24:48
of a lifetime
24:49
really looking at
24:50
that size of an
24:51
area closed down
24:52
for ten years
24:53
Being able to
24:54
study it whether
24:54
it be a
24:55
collaboration of
24:56
academics
24:57
philanthropists
24:58
government
24:59
Even for the
24:59
government I
25:00
would I would
25:01
imagine they
25:01
would like to see
25:02
if this thing
25:03
works or not
25:05
You know just
25:06
from a from a
25:07
point of view of
25:08
you know
25:09
Where is the best
25:10
way forward if
25:10
you want to be
25:11
the top fishing
25:12
nation in the
25:13
Pacific?
25:13
Wouldn't it be
25:14
good to have
25:15
great fish that's
25:16
available
25:17
Year after year
25:18
after year
25:18
instead of having
25:19
trouble later on
25:20
after your catch
25:21
per unit effort
25:22
goes down
25:23
You know trying
25:23
to catch these
25:24
fish. So
25:25
obviously that's
25:26
a that's
25:26
a big deal
25:27
Let's talk about
25:28
I'd like to talk
25:29
a little bit
25:29
about and we've
25:30
talked about this
25:30
before when
25:31
you've been on
25:32
the podcast
25:32
But I want to
25:33
reiterate this
25:34
There's been a
25:35
when we go into
25:36
the designation
25:36
of these marine
25:37
sanctuaries,
25:38
especially in the
25:39
Pacific area
25:41
Pacific
25:41
Ocean for the US
25:43
It's it seems to
25:45
always be
25:45
designated by a
25:47
president. So
25:47
George W Bush.
25:48
Yeah,
25:49
Barack Obama
25:49
even the changes
25:50
to it has
25:51
been done by
25:52
You know by by
25:53
Donald Trump and
25:55
and it seems like
25:56
you can just
25:56
change on
25:57
the whim
25:57
You know, it
25:58
doesn't seem like
25:59
it's a good
26:00
long-term plan
26:01
You would think
26:02
normally
26:02
presidents would
26:03
really like, you
26:04
know at the end
26:05
of the George
26:06
Bush area
26:06
He wasn't a very
26:07
environmentally
26:07
focused
26:08
But my
26:08
understanding is
26:09
that his wife
26:10
really enjoyed
26:11
the ocean really
26:12
enjoyed
26:13
protection of
26:14
environment
26:14
So that was the
26:15
the influence
26:15
there and that
26:16
was sort of like
26:16
his legacy at the
26:18
end of that of
26:19
his second term
26:20
To be able
26:20
to do that
26:22
Barack Obama did
26:23
he do in his
26:24
first term or
26:25
second term?
26:27
Second
26:28
second second
26:29
So again, like it
26:30
seems like more
26:30
of a I'm gonna
26:31
leave this legacy
26:32
of environmental
26:33
protection
26:34
And and see and
26:35
see where that
26:36
goes. It seems
26:36
like now it's
26:37
just more
26:37
of a I want
26:38
We want the US to
26:39
be the best at
26:40
everything and
26:41
fisheries is
26:41
gonna be
26:42
another thing
26:43
But presidents
26:44
can kind of go
26:44
back and forth
26:45
and whether they
26:46
want to either
26:46
expand it can
26:47
keep it the same
26:48
or take away
26:49
Some protections
26:50
that leaves these
26:52
marine
26:52
sanctuaries plus
26:53
the people that
26:54
benefit from
26:55
these marine
26:55
sanctuaries,
26:56
you know
26:57
vulnerable
26:57
to changes
27:00
Is it like is
27:01
there a way that
27:02
that the laws can
27:03
be more stringent
27:06
of of being
27:07
actually being
27:08
changed?
27:10
So I wish I could
27:11
say it was
27:12
unprecedented
27:12
that a president
27:14
would roll back
27:15
and other
27:15
presidents
27:16
protected areas
27:17
But this happened
27:18
before under the
27:19
first Trump
27:20
administration,
27:21
right?
27:21
But in the United
27:22
States is and I
27:24
was trying to say
27:25
this as
27:25
nice as I can
27:25
The United States
27:27
is in a
27:27
transition moment
27:29
where the future
27:31
of the
27:31
United States
27:32
Stands on a
27:33
precipice of like
27:34
we're going to
27:35
kind of a
27:36
dark place
27:37
And this this
27:38
relates to our
27:39
public lands and
27:39
waters. So for
27:41
the last
27:41
hundred years
27:42
And the law that
27:43
you're talking
27:44
about that the
27:44
president uses to
27:45
protect lands and
27:47
waters
27:48
and you know
27:48
The Grand Canyon
27:49
was protected
27:49
with this law
27:51
And many other
27:53
national
27:54
monuments and
27:55
national parks
27:55
began with this
27:57
Antiquities Act
27:58
designation and
28:00
for most
28:01
of history
28:02
Presidents did
28:03
not overturn
28:04
things that other
28:04
presidents had
28:05
recognized and
28:06
these these lands
28:08
You know
28:09
initially some of
28:09
them were just
28:10
protected as
28:10
scenic landscapes
28:11
So that you know,
28:13
Ansel Adams could
28:14
go and take a
28:14
picture of the of
28:15
the Grand Canyon
28:16
of these
28:16
beautiful places
28:17
But in the last
28:19
century the
28:20
reason for
28:21
protecting lands
28:22
and waters
28:22
evolved so it
28:24
like some
28:24
of our lands
28:26
Protect people or
28:28
remember people.
28:29
Yeah, some of
28:30
them Caesar
28:31
Shavett is right
28:31
Caesar Caesar
28:32
Shavett
28:33
so that the
28:34
farm workers
28:35
movement
28:37
Civil rights
28:38
monuments
28:38
protect, you
28:39
know, they
28:39
remember these
28:40
are public lands
28:41
that remember the
28:43
civil rights
28:44
movement
28:45
and out in
28:46
the Pacific
28:47
Indigenous
28:47
culture has been
28:49
a big part of
28:50
these these
28:50
monument
28:51
designations
28:52
so
28:54
Presidents kind
28:55
of accepted that
28:55
we were
28:56
protecting for
28:57
scenic
28:58
landscapes. We
28:59
were protecting
28:59
for biodiversity
29:00
conservation
29:01
We were
29:01
protecting to
29:02
remember
29:03
important people
29:03
important ideas
29:05
important places
29:06
and important
29:07
moments in our
29:08
history and Trump
29:10
is kind of the
29:10
first person to
29:11
come along and
29:12
Say now we're not
29:14
gonna
29:14
remember that
29:15
And he's so he's
29:18
doing it on
29:18
public
29:18
lands and waters
29:19
But he's also
29:20
doing it at the
29:20
Smithsonian and
29:22
he's doing it on
29:22
government
29:23
websites
29:24
Like one of the
29:24
first thing the
29:25
New York Times
29:26
has this
29:27
incredible
29:27
article where
29:28
they identify
29:29
200 words that
29:30
the Trump
29:31
administration is
29:31
scrubbing from
29:32
websites and it's
29:33
things like
29:34
innocuous words
29:35
like woman
29:36
Mm-hmm
29:37
Black, you know,
29:39
like completely
29:40
erasing the
29:41
history gay. Yeah
29:42
erasing these
29:44
concepts from
29:45
like the
29:47
The world right?
29:48
Yeah, and so it's
29:49
it's playing out
29:50
in our museums.
29:51
It's playing out
29:51
in our government
29:52
websites
29:52
It's playing out
29:53
in the way
29:53
government
29:54
manages itself,
29:54
but it's also
29:55
playing out
29:57
in our public
29:58
lands and
29:59
waters and
30:01
We thought that
30:05
our norms would
30:05
protect us we
30:06
thought because
30:07
it was always
30:08
done that way
30:09
It'll it won't
30:10
have it won't
30:11
ever happen in
30:12
the future and
30:13
you know, Bill
30:13
Maher has this
30:14
great bit that
30:15
he's done a
30:15
couple of times
30:16
About that movie
30:17
about the donkey
30:18
that kicks field
30:19
goals, right?
30:20
And you know
30:20
because there's
30:21
no rule that you
30:22
can't have a
30:24
donkey on your
30:25
football team
30:26
The team went on having you know the donkey on the football team
30:28
You know air by
30:31
the air by the
30:32
same thing. Yeah,
30:33
there's no rule
30:34
that the dog
30:34
can't play
30:35
basketball
30:35
And that's kind
30:37
of where we are
30:37
with Trump is
30:38
like he is just
30:39
rolling back
30:39
these things
30:40
You know, there's
30:40
no rule that you
30:41
can't have the
30:42
National Guard
30:43
overthrow
30:43
Washington,
30:44
DC. Yeah
30:45
Yet on my
30:46
commute home
30:48
Every metro
30:49
station is full
30:50
of National Guard
30:51
troops.
30:51
Yeah. Yeah
30:53
Because even though there's no rule say that you can or cannot he's just doing it
30:54
Because that's so
30:59
same by
30:59
protected area
31:01
So like what we
31:03
can we can fight
31:04
back we can
31:05
ridicule them
31:05
And this is shown
31:07
to actually to
31:09
work a little bit
31:10
a couple weeks
31:11
ago the
31:11
Smithsonian
31:12
announced
31:13
a change
31:14
at one of their
31:16
exhibits about
31:17
impeachment
31:18
And you know
31:21
public uproar
31:21
ridicule and
31:23
within 48 hours that they can't be able to get back to the city
31:23
So within 48
31:24
hours that thing
31:24
was back
31:26
And it was the
31:26
same thing.
31:27
They erased
31:28
Some stuff about
31:29
Jackie Robinson
31:30
the great
31:30
baseball player
31:31
who was the first
31:32
black guy to play
31:33
Major League
31:33
Baseball
31:34
There is
31:35
they erased
31:36
Some of the stuff
31:37
about his
31:38
military service
31:38
on one of the
31:39
Pentagon websites
31:40
or
31:40
something like that
31:42
Ridicule and 24
31:43
hours it was back
31:45
so
31:46
Even though he's
31:47
doing this stuff
31:48
and you know, we
31:48
think he's taking
31:49
his cues from
31:50
industry. He
31:51
still wants
31:52
to be popular
31:53
And you know,
31:54
he's there is
31:55
still right and
31:55
wrong. Yeah
31:56
Yeah
31:58
So we we fight in
31:59
the courts and
32:01
that's how this
32:01
first battle was
32:02
fought in
32:02
the courts
32:03
Yeah, Earth
32:04
Justice was able
32:05
to get that judge
32:05
to agree with
32:06
them and they
32:07
were close
32:07
to the fishing
32:08
But we also will
32:10
fight in the the
32:11
court of public
32:12
opinion. Yeah,
32:12
and eventually
32:14
we'll fight at
32:14
the ballot box
32:16
because
32:16
You know, we need
32:17
if we want to
32:18
have ocean
32:18
conservation. We
32:20
need to elect
32:20
people who
32:21
support ocean
32:22
conservation
32:22
Yeah, no, no
32:23
doubt now. I want
32:25
to talk about the
32:26
reasoning why
32:27
The judge the
32:29
court shut this
32:30
down like the
32:30
opening of this
32:31
National Marine
32:32
Sanctuary
32:33
So it's open for
32:34
a few months
32:35
people are
32:35
fishing, you know
32:36
having a great
32:36
time fishing all
32:37
that kind
32:38
of stuff
32:38
Seems like it's
32:39
really great
32:40
You know a lot of
32:41
people that were
32:42
not in ocean
32:43
conservation saw
32:43
the announcement
32:44
that it was
32:44
opened up
32:45
You know, they'd
32:46
have an uproar
32:46
some people
32:47
forgot to talk
32:47
You know not
32:48
talking about it
32:49
as much because
32:49
there's so much
32:50
going on and then
32:51
all of a sudden
32:51
we get this court
32:52
ruling saying
32:53
hey, we're
32:53
actually this is
32:54
actually doesn't
32:54
follow the
32:55
Magnuson-Stevens
32:56
Act. We're just
32:57
going to
32:58
Shut it like shut
32:59
it back down
33:00
because you know
33:01
There's certain
33:01
things that that
33:02
the council says
33:02
like they have or
33:03
that the council
33:04
hasn't met. It's
33:05
like can you talk
33:06
about what?
33:08
What was the
33:09
reasoning behind
33:10
the shutting it
33:11
down again? Like
33:12
why it wasn't
33:14
To protect it
33:16
again. Yeah to
33:17
protect again.
33:17
Yeah,
33:17
shut it down
33:19
Yeah, yeah, um
33:20
because they're
33:21
incompetent
33:21
And they they
33:22
honestly they
33:24
lost on a
33:24
technicality
33:26
And they thought
33:27
that they could
33:27
take a shortcut.
33:28
They thought that
33:29
they could
33:30
ignore the law
33:32
This is the
33:33
government
33:36
There's a if you
33:37
watch that TV
33:38
show parks and
33:38
recreation there
33:39
was an episode
33:40
where Ron Swanson
33:41
wanted to have a
33:42
barbecue in
33:42
A park. Yeah, and
33:43
he said I've got
33:44
a permit right
33:45
here and it said
33:46
I'm the parks
33:47
director
33:48
I can do
33:48
what I want
33:49
And that's kind
33:50
of what they
33:50
thought they
33:50
thought no, we're
33:51
in charge. We can
33:52
do
33:52
whatever we want
33:52
Yeah, but we're a
33:54
nation of laws.
33:54
Yeah, so they
33:55
they have to
33:56
follow the
33:57
law, right?
33:58
And so they kind
33:58
of lost on a
33:59
technicality,
34:00
which means this
34:01
is not a
34:01
permanent win
34:02
This is that this
34:03
is a temporary
34:04
win where they
34:06
now they have to
34:07
follow the law
34:08
Which means
34:08
there's gonna be
34:08
a public
34:09
comment period
34:10
Which means so
34:11
the next battle
34:12
is we flood the
34:13
government with
34:14
comments, right?
34:15
And this is
34:16
unpopular people
34:17
support the
34:18
protected areas
34:19
like national
34:19
parks national
34:21
Everybody it's
34:23
called, you know,
34:23
it's the best
34:24
idea America ever
34:25
had people love
34:26
our public areas
34:28
So this stuff is
34:29
incredibly
34:29
unpopular and
34:31
it's really just
34:32
he's selling
34:33
stuff off to the
34:33
highest bidder,
34:34
which in
34:34
this case is
34:36
Fishing
34:37
interests, but
34:38
he's doing the
34:38
same thing all
34:39
across the
34:39
country to for
34:40
oil companies and
34:41
for mining
34:41
companies
34:42
Um
34:43
I think it's
34:46
interesting that
34:48
Like is there is
34:49
there not a law?
34:50
Is there is there
34:50
a marine
34:50
protected
34:51
area law?
34:52
Like is there a
34:52
law that congress
34:53
or the
34:54
senate can put in?
34:56
Yeah, the you
34:57
know the
34:59
NASA, sorry nasa
35:00
noah is you know,
35:02
this amazing
35:02
amazing agency
35:03
that has uh
35:06
Uh satellites and
35:07
you know billions
35:08
of dollars and
35:09
they can predict
35:09
hurricanes
35:10
and what?
35:13
collect data for
35:13
climate change
35:15
but noah is
35:16
within the
35:16
department of
35:17
commerce,
35:18
right and
35:19
uh
35:20
The which is
35:21
which is bizarre
35:22
in itself. Yeah,
35:23
uh, you know
35:24
part of that
35:24
It's been for a
35:25
while a vestige
35:26
of how the united
35:27
states has been
35:27
around and been
35:28
managed
35:29
over the years
35:30
um
35:31
but sustainable
35:32
fishing uh
35:33
with the the
35:34
Net with noa
35:35
fisheries is sort
35:36
of the the
35:37
driving world
35:38
view of why our
35:39
oceans exist
35:40
Uh, and there's
35:41
kind of there's
35:42
basically
35:43
There's a couple
35:43
other
35:44
tools out there
35:45
um, but monuments
35:46
and sanctuaries
35:49
marine national
35:50
monuments
35:50
designated with
35:51
the antiquities
35:51
act and the
35:52
national marine
35:53
sanctuaries
35:53
designated with
35:54
the
35:54
sanctuaries act
35:55
Uh make up most
35:57
of the acreage of
35:58
our protected
35:58
areas. Uh, we
36:00
also have uh,
36:01
the national the
36:02
estuarian
36:04
cardboard to say
36:05
uh, the estuarian
36:06
reserves, uh,
36:07
there's also a
36:08
number of
36:09
National wildlife
36:10
refuges that
36:11
protect the
36:11
ocean. Um, like
36:13
buck island
36:13
national wildlife
36:14
refuge in the
36:15
virgin islands
36:16
So there's a
36:17
couple of
36:17
different tools
36:18
out there
36:20
um, but all of
36:20
these different
36:21
tools were
36:22
created by
36:22
different laws
36:23
and they
36:24
they have
36:25
uh, honestly like
36:26
somewhat
36:26
different
36:26
personalities
36:27
uh, and different
36:29
goals and
36:29
different
36:29
reasons for
36:31
existing or how
36:32
they
36:32
manage the ocean
36:33
um
36:35
And these are
36:36
relatively new
36:37
Uh, you know, so
36:37
where are our
36:38
national parks?
36:40
Uh, yellowstone?
36:41
uh
36:42
I've been around
36:43
since you know,
36:44
the late 1800s
36:45
early 1900s is
36:46
when a lot of our
36:47
our lands were
36:48
protected
36:49
uh, some of our
36:50
big marine
36:51
protected areas,
36:51
uh, were only
36:53
designated since
36:54
like the 1960s or
36:55
some of the
36:56
oldest ones
36:57
and in fact the
36:58
the
36:58
sanctuaries act
37:00
Was designated in
37:02
response to
37:02
oil spills
37:04
so the the uh in
37:05
california
37:06
so the threat
37:07
that that act
37:08
tends to
37:09
focus on is uh
37:12
oil
37:12
Drilling, uh, so
37:14
like the the
37:14
seafloor
37:15
Uh, and that's
37:16
why you know the
37:16
the chumash
37:17
national marine
37:18
heritage the
37:18
chumash heritage
37:19
national marine
37:20
sanctuary that
37:21
was designated
37:22
Last year by
37:23
biden actually
37:24
doesn't address
37:25
fishing right?
37:26
Um, it it's it
37:27
mainly
37:27
deals with uh
37:30
The chumash
37:30
culture and
37:31
involving
37:32
indigenous
37:32
peoples in the
37:33
protected area
37:34
Uh, but it also
37:35
has restrictions
37:36
on oil oil
37:37
exploration
37:38
Uh, which which
37:39
is which is an
37:40
important threat.
37:40
Absolutely. Yeah
37:42
but uh, there is
37:45
this
37:45
long-standing
37:46
conflict between
37:48
Uh, the
37:48
antiquities act
37:49
fishing rules and
37:50
the magnus and
37:51
stevens act
37:51
fishing rules
37:52
because they have
37:53
different
37:53
purposes
37:54
Uh, and I we
37:55
talked about this
37:56
at the beginning
37:56
of our chat here
37:57
is you know
37:57
So that this the
37:58
monta marine
37:58
monuments are
37:59
designated
38:00
to protect
38:01
Um artifacts.
38:03
Yeah, and in this
38:04
case the artifact
38:05
is the ecosystem.
38:06
Yes. Um, that's
38:07
what it's it's
38:07
meant to
38:08
protect habitat
38:09
fully
38:11
In perpetuity, so
38:12
it says there's
38:13
for the most
38:13
part.
38:13
There's no fishing
38:14
Um in reality,
38:15
there is a
38:17
recreational
38:17
fishing. There is
38:18
um, some cultural
38:20
fishing and
38:21
there's also what
38:21
is called
38:22
non-commercial
38:22
fishing
38:24
um
38:26
Uh, so yeah,
38:27
like the the
38:28
The bigger
38:29
problem is is
38:30
that the united
38:30
states doesn't
38:31
necessarily have
38:32
the tools
38:34
To create what
38:35
other countries
38:36
Call marine
38:37
protected areas.
38:38
We have we have
38:39
monuments and
38:40
sanctuaries
38:40
Yeah, uh, and
38:41
there's even like
38:42
to be a nerd like
38:43
there are some
38:44
people who might
38:44
argue that these
38:45
national marine
38:45
sanctuaries
38:46
aren't marine
38:47
protected areas
38:48
Because they they
38:48
don't do enough
38:49
right because
38:51
they're you know
38:51
one specific
38:52
thing or yeah
38:53
I don't want to
38:54
dive into like I
38:55
I think um
38:57
You know this you
38:58
you've heard me
38:58
talk about the
38:59
strengths and
39:00
weaknesses
39:00
of 30 by 30
39:02
and
39:03
The effort to
39:04
protect 30
39:04
of the ocean
39:05
Um, and this is
39:07
some of the
39:07
reality like what
39:08
does 30 by 30
39:09
mean on the
39:10
ocean, you
39:11
know, there's
39:12
Uh on land it's
39:14
two-dimensional
39:14
but on in the
39:15
ocean it's
39:16
three-dimensional
39:17
right and how do
39:17
we how do we
39:18
manage that?
39:19
um also fish swim
39:21
Uh, so how do we
39:22
how do we manage
39:23
that and not only
39:24
make one
39:25
boundary?
39:26
Yeah, how do we
39:27
measure
39:27
that? Yeah
39:28
um, and and so I
39:29
I think uh, some
39:32
of these borders
39:33
that we draw uh
39:35
You know, it's
39:37
We're doing what
39:37
we can managing
39:38
it with the tools
39:39
that we have
39:39
available
39:40
um
39:41
But managing the
39:42
ocean is is much
39:43
more complicated
39:44
than just saying
39:46
30 of the ocean
39:48
is a marine
39:48
protecting
39:49
area. It's
39:50
um, and even
39:51
getting to that
39:51
30 percent you
39:52
also have to ask
39:53
the question of
39:54
How did we get
39:55
there? What was
39:55
the process that
39:56
we went through?
39:57
And then who were
39:58
the people that
39:58
were involved? Um
39:59
and going through
40:00
that process
40:01
I think there's
40:01
also something to
40:02
say too like, uh,
40:03
you know you and
40:03
I have been
40:04
watching
40:05
You've been
40:05
involved in in in
40:07
the designation
40:07
of marine
40:07
protected areas
40:08
of all sorts from
40:09
all over
40:10
the world
40:10
I've been
40:11
watching and I
40:12
studied it in
40:12
university and so
40:14
forth and there's
40:14
something to be
40:14
said about even
40:16
A marine
40:16
protected area
40:17
first being
40:17
designated may
40:18
not have all the
40:19
protections
40:19
It needs to fully
40:21
protect that area
40:22
But then you can
40:22
build on it as it
40:24
grows and
40:24
as you know
40:25
The first the
40:26
first step is to
40:27
get it designated
40:27
obviously not you
40:28
don't want a
40:29
paper park where
40:30
Nothing is
40:30
enforced and
40:31
nothing is
40:31
managed. But even
40:32
if you get one
40:33
thing managed
40:34
Hopefully later
40:35
on you can
40:35
increase the size
40:36
like like this
40:37
one was done
40:38
Or you can
40:39
increase the
40:40
amount of
40:40
protections or
40:41
you can designate
40:42
certain areas
40:43
like a bit like
40:44
the the
40:44
multi-management
40:45
style that the
40:46
grapeberry reef
40:48
Marine park has
40:49
And maybe you
40:50
know install that
40:51
and have like
40:51
certain
40:51
protections in
40:52
certain areas as
40:53
you discover more
40:54
of that area and
40:55
you research
40:55
More of that area
40:56
and how
40:56
beneficial it is
40:57
and where to
40:59
pinpoint?
41:00
Um, you know
41:00
spawning areas or
41:01
nursery areas and
41:02
so forth of
41:03
specific
41:04
fish stocks
41:05
um
41:06
There's there's
41:06
something to be
41:07
said about
41:07
establishing and
41:08
building upon
41:09
that it may not
41:10
be perfect
41:11
But we know in
41:12
this world
41:12
nothing's going
41:12
to be perfect
41:13
when you first
41:13
start it off and
41:14
it takes a
41:14
long time
41:16
And a lot of
41:16
effort to
41:17
designate
41:17
uh an mpa
41:19
Not you know
41:20
notwithstanding
41:20
any kind of
41:21
difficulty in
41:23
getting certain
41:23
things protected
41:24
and certain
41:24
things not it's
41:25
it's a it's a
41:26
long-term goal
41:27
to be able
41:27
to do this
41:29
for uh,
41:30
you know you
41:31
You have a good
41:33
pulse on
41:34
What these mpa's?
41:37
You know that
41:37
you've been
41:37
involved and have
41:38
to do with
41:39
You know people
41:40
who live around
41:41
these areas live
41:42
on these islands
41:43
and and you know
41:44
benefit from the the
41:46
benefits of these
41:48
uh spill effects
41:49
notwithstanding
41:49
not like fully
41:51
understanding
41:51
what
41:53
You know this the
41:54
the mpa for the
41:54
last 10 years or
41:55
the the expansion
41:56
has done for fish
41:57
and size and
41:58
things like that
42:00
and I know we
42:00
talked a little
42:00
bit about the
42:01
social um the
42:02
social
42:03
implications, but
42:03
how
42:04
important is it to
42:06
uh a lot of
42:07
people who live
42:08
out in those
42:08
islands are
42:08
indigenous how
42:09
important
42:09
is it for
42:11
the indigenous
42:11
people for these
42:12
protections
42:13
to happen
42:15
And and to be
42:15
designated you
42:16
mentioned how a
42:17
lot of times uh,
42:18
it was to protect
42:19
also
42:20
indigenous culture
42:21
Uh and important
42:22
for indigenous
42:22
people how
42:23
important
42:23
is it for
42:24
This uh area to
42:26
be closed and
42:26
then what are the
42:27
effects of that
42:27
when it's open?
42:29
There's no no
42:30
community as a
42:31
monolith. Um, and
42:32
the the opinions
42:33
that people on
42:34
islands have
42:35
whether they're
42:36
indigenous or
42:36
non-indigenous,
42:38
uh are as
42:38
variable as the
42:40
opinions
42:40
that we have
42:41
uh
42:42
in toronto or in
42:44
washington d.c.
42:44
So it's it's uh,
42:47
you can't speak
42:47
to what what
42:49
Do people what do
42:51
all people think?
42:52
Um, but when we
42:53
talk about
42:54
What is success?
42:55
Uh, what is
42:56
conservation
42:57
success and are
42:58
these protected
42:59
areas successful?
43:00
Yeah, um, I I
43:02
think from the
43:03
NGO perspective
43:04
and protect, you
43:05
know from the
43:05
science
43:06
perspective
43:07
The definition of
43:08
success for a
43:09
very long time
43:10
has been the area
43:11
that is protected
43:12
the square
43:13
kilometers
43:14
That get
43:15
protected and so
43:15
the united states
43:16
adds up the
43:17
number of square
43:17
kilometers, but
43:18
actually miles
43:19
because we don't
43:19
use kilometers
43:20
down here
43:20
Um, and they say,
43:22
you know where
43:22
this is our
43:23
percentage and
43:23
and that's what
43:24
the success is
43:25
um, but it can be
43:27
different when
43:27
you're living on
43:28
the island,
43:28
right, so uh
43:30
For for most
43:31
people it's are
43:32
there fish on my
43:33
a healthy ocean
43:34
means there's a
43:34
fish on my
43:35
plate, right?
43:36
And that's that's
43:37
the outcome that
43:38
they want
43:39
uh, but some of
43:39
the stuff that I
43:41
would like to see
43:42
redefine success
43:43
and marine
43:43
conservation
43:44
Is who has those
43:46
jobs? So there
43:47
there are so many
43:48
jobs for the
43:49
ocean for this
43:50
this conservation
43:50
world, right?
43:51
So there's the
43:51
scientist. Yep
43:53
There's the
43:54
administrator
43:55
There's the
43:55
person who
43:56
washes, uh, or
43:57
you know who
43:57
sweeps the floors
43:58
at university
44:00
And are those
44:01
jobs in
44:02
washington state
44:03
or are they on
44:04
guam? Right? Uh,
44:05
we where did that
44:06
money go?
44:08
Um, so there's
44:08
the science
44:09
there's the
44:09
conservation
44:11
There's the
44:11
advocate world.
44:12
So are people
44:13
living in
44:14
washington d.c?
44:15
And then flying
44:16
to the islands to
44:17
to make these
44:18
conservation
44:19
decisions
44:19
And how much are
44:21
they getting paid
44:21
or are the people
44:23
on the islands
44:24
having those
44:25
jobs? Yeah
44:26
um for the
44:27
management, um
44:28
are the are the
44:29
managers
44:31
from the islands
44:32
or are they um
44:35
And this is the
44:36
united states,
44:37
right? So within
44:38
the context of
44:39
the united states
44:40
Um, are they or
44:42
are they staffers
44:42
from say
44:43
new york?
44:44
And I don't like
44:45
I don't think
44:45
anybody that's
44:46
from new york
44:46
with working on
44:47
the islands
44:48
Who come to the
44:49
islands? Um
44:51
To work and some
44:52
of this can be
44:52
complicated
44:53
Uh, because those
44:54
job descriptions
44:55
get written in
44:56
hawaii or they
44:57
get written in
44:57
washington, dc
44:59
Um, and you know
45:00
you ask the
45:00
question
45:00
is it better
45:02
To find a local
45:02
person in that
45:03
job even if they
45:05
haven't taken
45:05
zoology yet
45:06
Uh, right because
45:08
because that job
45:08
description says
45:09
like you have to
45:09
have taken
45:10
zoology. Yeah
45:11
Um, and do they
45:12
even still teach
45:12
zoology or is it
45:14
called something
45:14
else in
45:15
these days?
45:16
um
45:19
And then there's
45:19
you know the
45:20
fisheries
45:20
benefits
45:21
There's the
45:22
tourism benefits.
45:22
So it's actually
45:24
much larger
45:25
Um, and whether
45:26
if you're
45:27
a tourist
45:28
Operator or
45:29
you're an ngo or
45:30
you're a
45:31
government or
45:31
you're a
45:32
scientist
45:33
There's different
45:33
ways that you
45:34
even even within
45:35
those different
45:35
silos that you
45:36
that you would
45:36
define success.
45:37
Um, but those
45:39
We need social
45:40
scientists to
45:41
help us
45:41
understand
45:41
that. Yeah
45:42
Um, and that
45:43
doesn't get
45:44
communicated and
45:45
that doesn't get
45:45
to be part of
45:47
How we define
45:48
conservation
45:48
success?
45:50
Um
45:50
We also don't
45:51
have the the
45:52
processes that
45:53
were gone through
45:54
right? So yes,
45:55
there was a
45:55
public
45:56
comment period
45:57
Um, but were the
45:58
borders drawn
45:59
with local input
45:59
or word or or did
46:01
somebody in dc
46:02
draw the borders?
46:04
Send it to the
46:05
island and say
46:06
comment on this.
46:07
Yeah, um, even
46:08
things like
46:09
To make the
46:09
decision for a
46:10
public
46:10
comment period
46:12
Uh, was that
46:13
decision based on
46:14
the island or was
46:15
that decision
46:15
based in
46:16
washington dc?
46:17
Yeah, um, and I
46:18
don't see
46:22
Okay
46:23
My no, my wife is
46:24
uh, her phone is
46:25
ringing. I
46:26
didn't hear it
46:27
So so that's just
46:29
one of the joys
46:29
of live
46:30
interviews. So
46:31
you don't need to
46:32
cut that. I did.
46:33
I did not
46:33
have a stroke
46:35
It was just my
46:36
wife's phone
46:36
started ringing
46:38
And I didn't want
46:40
to I didn't know
46:40
if you could hear
46:41
it. Yeah. Yeah. I
46:42
heard a
46:42
little bit
46:42
Buff of a hide
46:43
looked like a
46:43
song you didn't
46:44
but like from
46:45
where i'm sitting
46:46
It was really
46:47
loud and my
46:48
assumption was
46:49
that nobody
46:49
could hear it
46:50
Um, that's what
46:51
happened. It got
46:52
you distracted
46:54
Yeah, uh, yeah,
46:55
but you know to
46:56
bring it back to
46:56
your to your
46:57
question of
46:58
You know, are
46:59
people supportive
46:59
of these kind of
47:00
things is like
47:01
the answer is
47:01
complicated. Yeah
47:02
Um, because it
47:03
depends on what
47:04
the success rate
47:05
is like what
47:05
there's the same
47:07
kinds of interest
47:08
It's our society
47:10
is just as
47:11
complicated
47:12
Um, but then like
47:13
the other thing
47:13
to understand
47:14
about these
47:14
island societies
47:15
is that there's
47:16
an intimacy
47:17
When you live
47:18
there, um, and
47:20
you know you
47:21
People come from
47:22
the outside. You
47:23
don't get that
47:24
you don't get to
47:24
understand that
47:25
intimacy
47:26
Of i've lived
47:27
here my entire
47:28
life the people
47:29
who were in this
47:29
society were my
47:32
Classmates when I
47:33
was a kid. Um, we
47:34
are we are
47:34
tight knit
47:35
Um, even if I
47:37
just even if we
47:37
have a fight
47:38
right now
47:39
That fight has to
47:40
happen in a way
47:41
so that next week
47:43
We can talk about
47:43
something
47:43
else. Yeah
47:45
Um, yeah, or or
47:46
it's my in-law
47:47
And uh a lot of
47:50
sometimes the
47:51
timelines that
47:52
are on islands
47:53
Uh, do not go
47:54
they're not on
47:55
the same
47:56
timelines as
47:56
ngo's.
47:57
Yeah, uh, okay
47:58
Right, so you're
47:59
the ngo their
48:01
their fiscal year
48:01
ends in june. So
48:03
they got to spend
48:03
this
48:03
money by june
48:05
But maybe it's
48:06
election season
48:07
um and
48:09
Elections are
48:09
incredibly
48:10
important because
48:11
it's actually
48:12
pretty easy to
48:13
make decisions
48:13
and like, you
48:14
know, ram things
48:14
through on
48:15
an island
48:16
Uh, but are they
48:17
going to be?
48:18
there for the
48:19
long term,
48:19
right, um, and
48:21
so
48:23
This takes time.
48:24
Yeah, um, i i've
48:25
been I live in
48:26
washington d.c
48:27
But I I still
48:28
talk to people
48:29
back at home. I'm
48:30
still plugged
48:30
into the
48:31
community
48:32
There's other
48:32
members. You
48:33
know, we're an
48:34
ecosystem of of
48:35
advocates. We've
48:36
got dz people.
48:37
We've got
48:37
diaspora
48:38
We've got people
48:38
at home, but i've
48:40
been doing it for
48:40
20 years
48:41
Uh, and that's
48:43
that's what this
48:43
conservation
48:43
takes place. And
48:44
so yeah, uh to
48:46
bring it back to
48:47
the initial
48:47
discussion
48:48
This moment where
48:50
this yo-yo
48:51
conservation that
48:51
we're
48:52
experiencing this
48:52
back and forth of
48:53
it's open
48:54
to fishing
48:55
It's closed
48:55
to fishing
48:56
In a couple of
48:57
months it's going
48:57
to be open
48:58
to fishing
48:58
Um, and then
48:59
there's gonna be
48:59
another lawsuit
49:00
and it's going to
49:00
be closed to
49:01
fishing. Um
49:03
Real people are
49:04
dealing with this
49:05
right and it's
49:06
and also it's
49:06
very
49:07
emotional too
49:07
Like a lot of our
49:08
identities are
49:09
tied into this
49:10
Um and to have
49:11
that, you know
49:12
back and forth
49:13
There's money
49:14
involved like
49:15
there's we talked
49:16
about the fish
49:16
being worth a
49:17
thousand dollars
49:18
Uh, you know
49:19
those those boats
49:20
they want to
49:21
catch the fish.
49:21
They want to go
49:22
Yeah, they want
49:23
to go get those
49:23
eye those those
49:25
iphones out. Uh,
49:26
and then and then
49:27
sell them and
49:28
make money
49:28
Yeah, um
49:30
So, you know,
49:31
this is this is
49:32
why we need
49:34
long-term
49:34
committed people
49:36
living in these
49:37
islands,
49:37
uh who can
49:39
participate
49:41
in these actions
49:41
over the long
49:42
term and
49:43
You know back to
49:44
the the idea of
49:45
who gets the
49:46
benefits a lot of
49:47
times those jobs
49:48
just aren't with
49:49
the people
49:49
in the islands
49:50
Yeah, um, they're
49:52
for people in
49:53
The mainland.
49:54
Yeah. Yeah, which
49:55
is like you said,
49:57
it's very it's
49:58
very complicated
49:59
When we think
49:59
about it and it
50:00
almost requires
50:01
its own own study
50:03
to to to be able
50:04
to kind of
50:05
you know
50:07
Like untie all
50:08
the all the
50:09
different lines
50:09
that that of the
50:10
benefits and the
50:11
successes
50:11
Um, so like, you
50:13
know finishing up
50:14
this this
50:14
conversation
50:15
Uh to wrap it up
50:17
the big idea here
50:18
now that is
50:19
closed might open
50:20
up again
50:22
There's a there's
50:22
definitely a need
50:24
to
50:25
uh to to get
50:27
more data to
50:28
increase
50:28
We have to study
50:30
the shit out of
50:31
this. We have to
50:32
come from we have
50:32
to we have to
50:33
science the shit
50:33
out of this
50:34
And yeah, we need
50:34
fishery science
50:36
We need npa
50:36
science and we
50:37
need social
50:38
science and where
50:39
do you want that
50:40
to come from?
50:42
um
50:42
I think the
50:44
fishery
50:44
scientists can
50:45
come out of
50:45
hawaii. Um, but
50:47
but i'd love a
50:48
lot of this comes
50:49
down to resources
50:50
Um, but I think
50:51
there are people
50:52
in american semoa
50:53
and in the
50:54
territories who
50:55
could help lead
50:56
this
50:56
social science
50:57
To help us ask
50:58
the right
50:58
questions and
50:59
understand what's
51:00
going on. How is
51:01
this affecting
51:01
the
51:01
community? Yeah
51:03
um and uh
51:05
Often, you know,
51:06
we're indigenous
51:06
communities and
51:07
oftentimes
51:08
indigenous
51:08
communities
51:09
get studied
51:10
And then the
51:10
studies don't
51:11
have the context
51:12
or deep
51:13
understanding.
51:13
Yes of that that
51:14
intimacy of our
51:16
societies
51:17
I like i've read
51:19
lots of books
51:19
about my own
51:20
community from
51:21
outsiders or
51:21
studies from
51:22
outsiders and it
51:23
just feels off
51:24
Yeah, you know
51:25
like somebody
51:25
says the wrong
51:26
thing. Yeah, like
51:27
when like when an
51:27
american pretends
51:28
to be canadian
51:31
It's just like
51:31
it's just it's
51:32
just off. Yeah,
51:33
um, because you
51:34
just you just
51:34
don't have that
51:35
that cultural
51:36
experience
51:37
for sure of
51:38
That deep
51:38
knowledge and
51:39
understanding of
51:40
living in that
51:40
island
51:41
society is like
51:42
Um, and we've got
51:43
experts now we've
51:44
got we've got
51:45
kids with phds
51:46
kids when
51:46
I say kids
51:47
I mean like
51:47
people in their
51:48
30s and 40s. Yes,
51:49
uh, but we we
51:50
have our own
51:50
experts. Um, who
51:52
can help
51:53
Guide this work
51:53
who can do it in
51:54
a way that our
51:56
people will
51:56
respond to it
51:57
Yeah, and does
51:58
this require
51:58
funding for
52:00
people to be able
52:00
to do that and
52:01
where so so is
52:02
this like
52:03
It's a call on
52:04
like foundations
52:05
who want this
52:06
data. Yeah
52:07
Are it's it's a
52:08
little bit of
52:10
some of it's like
52:11
We see what we
52:12
see what the
52:13
government is
52:13
doing and it's in
52:14
a couple years.
52:15
We're going to
52:15
get the
52:15
government
52:16
to go back
52:17
Hopefully the
52:17
data survives
52:18
Um, but
52:19
philanthropy
52:20
doesn't have
52:20
enough money to
52:21
replace the
52:21
government
52:22
Um, but so we we
52:24
need to offer
52:24
them some nuggets
52:25
of ideas of of
52:27
things that they
52:28
can study
52:28
Things that they
52:29
can fund that
52:30
will deliver
52:32
Some
52:33
understanding of
52:34
what's happening.
52:35
Yeah, but but
52:36
again, like I do
52:37
think
52:37
that this has
52:38
global
52:38
significance
52:39
because it's it's
52:40
very rare that an
52:42
area of a million
52:43
square kilometers
52:44
That was close to
52:45
fishing suddenly
52:46
gets fished.
52:47
Yeah, like
52:48
this. It's
52:49
We need that
52:50
data. We need
52:51
that. Yeah, it
52:52
could either it
52:53
could confirm
52:53
everything that
52:54
we've been saying
52:54
for 20 years
52:55
Or it could throw
52:56
it out the
52:56
window. This
52:57
could fund
52:57
probably about
52:58
17 phds
53:02
Not and then
53:03
that's not even
53:03
including
53:04
master's students
53:04
like it's
53:05
it's uh,
53:06
uh, there's
53:07
definitely an
53:07
opportunity right
53:08
now given given
53:09
the circumstances
53:10
to be able to
53:11
um
53:12
You know bring
53:13
this together and
53:14
and and you know
53:15
at least
53:16
learn from it
53:17
Uh and see what
53:18
the ramifications
53:19
are going to be
53:20
in the future and
53:20
what the
53:20
ramifications
53:21
have been
53:22
in the past with
53:23
this 10 years of
53:24
of closing off
53:26
like a 50 to 200
53:27
nautical
53:27
mile area
53:29
around these
53:30
these wonderful
53:30
islands and I
53:31
think that's
53:31
that's a really
53:33
important
53:33
a really
53:34
important thing
53:34
to do um what's
53:36
the you've
53:37
mentioned it a
53:38
couple times you
53:38
think that
53:39
it's probably
53:39
going to open up
53:40
again like why
53:41
would it why
53:42
would it
53:42
open up again?
53:44
I I think the
53:44
Trump
53:44
administration
53:45
wants to I think
53:46
they want to give
53:47
industry a
53:47
green light
53:48
and they they
53:49
tried to break
53:50
the law um but we
53:51
called them on
53:52
that and we still
53:53
have judges who
53:54
will stand up to
53:55
lawbreakers.
53:56
Yeah, um, so uh
53:58
now they're
53:59
they're gonna try
53:59
to do it the
54:00
legal way. Yeah,
54:01
uh, which which
54:02
is going
54:02
to require
54:03
a public notice a
54:05
public
54:05
comment period
54:07
Uh, they'll
54:07
probably get
54:07
buried in
54:08
comments. Yeah,
54:09
so that'll take
54:09
them weeks and
54:10
months years
54:12
uh to go through
54:13
Um, and then
54:14
they'll put
54:14
something out.
54:15
Um, and you know,
54:16
if they if
54:17
there's a misstep
54:18
Somebody will sue
54:18
them. Yeah, uh,
54:19
they're gonna
54:20
have to be very
54:20
careful because
54:21
people are
54:21
watching
54:22
People are
54:22
watching people
54:23
are fighting.
54:23
This is
54:24
unpopular. This
54:24
is deeply
54:25
unpopular. Yeah
54:26
Um, Americans
54:27
love our public
54:28
lands and waters.
54:29
Yeah, and we we
54:30
understand why we
54:31
have
54:31
protected areas
54:32
Do you think
54:33
there's a
54:33
possibility to
54:34
delay this
54:35
process with the
54:36
comments and
54:37
everything like
54:37
that and burying
54:38
them under those
54:38
comments where
54:38
they have to
54:39
address them?
54:40
To the point
54:40
where it gets
54:41
close to the end
54:42
of of this
54:42
administration's
54:43
time
54:44
That's the
54:45
hope. Yeah
54:46
um, and it's uh
54:49
You know the
54:50
trump
54:50
administration
54:50
was talking about
54:51
flooding the
54:52
zone. Uh, steve
54:53
bannon is like
54:53
they're just
54:54
throwing
54:54
everything
54:55
all at once
54:56
Yeah, see what
54:58
sticks so
55:00
See what
55:00
sticks? Um
55:02
And uh, you know,
55:03
we're fighting
55:03
this we're
55:04
fighting deep sea
55:05
mining in america
55:06
and samoa
55:07
Um, we might be
55:08
fighting openings
55:09
up of other
55:10
protected areas
55:11
on land
55:12
and on waters
55:13
um all while the
55:14
national guard,
55:15
um is
55:16
patrolling our
55:17
metro stops, um,
55:19
and while ice is
55:21
picking up
55:22
immigrants, uh
55:24
It's uh, it's a
55:26
lot. It's a lot
55:27
going on a lot to
55:27
be distracted
55:28
like it's easy to
55:29
be distracted by
55:30
different
55:31
priorities
55:31
depending on
55:33
Where you're from
55:33
how you how you
55:34
know what your
55:35
family's like and
55:36
and relatives and
55:37
everything like
55:38
that,
55:38
right? It's uh,
55:40
It's a we live in
55:40
interesting times
55:41
very interesting
55:42
times. Yeah.
55:42
Yeah, so well
55:44
angel. I I
55:44
appreciate you
55:45
coming on
55:46
I know this was
55:47
me go it's it's
55:48
important for uh,
55:50
for the both of
55:50
us to get this
55:50
out there
55:51
I definitely
55:51
agree with you
55:52
that we need to
55:53
science the shit
55:53
out of this and
55:54
hopefully get um,
55:56
You know get some
55:56
answers and to
55:57
see you know,
55:58
what's what's
55:58
coming and and
55:59
for everybody?
56:01
Uh, you know,
56:02
we'll follow this
56:02
story and for all
56:04
everybody's
56:04
listening to the
56:05
audience
56:05
We'll make sure
56:06
that we'll tell
56:07
you when the
56:07
public comment is
56:08
open. Uh, and
56:09
then do you do
56:10
your thing?
56:10
You know if you
56:11
want this
56:11
mpa to be
56:12
uh to be an mpa
56:14
and stay an mpa,
56:15
you know, give us
56:16
your give us the
56:16
reasons and and
56:17
give it to them
56:18
and just
56:19
Do what we can do
56:20
what we can do
56:21
and and uh follow
56:22
the law and
56:22
that's what
56:23
that's what we're
56:23
going to do
56:23
So angel, I
56:24
appreciate you
56:24
coming on the
56:25
podcast and um
56:26
and letting us
56:27
know about this
56:28
Thank you. Angelo
56:29
for joining us on
56:29
today's episode
56:30
of the how to
56:31
protect the
56:31
ocean podcast
56:32
It was great to
56:32
have you on such
56:33
an important
56:33
issue that we
56:34
need to
56:34
talk about
56:35
The fact is like
56:36
no matter what we
56:37
think of policies
56:37
that are put in
56:38
place by
56:39
governments in
56:39
power or the
56:40
parties that are
56:41
in power
56:41
Of these
56:41
governments
56:42
science needs to
56:43
happen. This is
56:44
an opportunity to
56:44
find out one
56:46
How this monument
56:47
has actually
56:47
benefited if it
56:48
has benefited the
56:50
fish that were
56:50
protected from
56:51
fishing over the
56:52
last 10
56:52
years and two
56:54
What has this
56:54
done for the
56:55
fishery that's
56:55
now open and how
56:56
has it benefited?
56:57
socioeconomically
56:58
to the people who
56:59
depend on these
57:00
fish to sell
57:01
As angel said
57:02
during the
57:02
interview the
57:03
people in the
57:03
island
57:04
communities look
57:04
at it is like if
57:05
there's fish out
57:06
there if
57:06
the ocean
57:06
Is healthy then I
57:07
have a fish
57:07
on my plate
57:08
That's how they
57:09
look at the
57:10
health of the
57:10
ocean and so
57:11
that's something
57:12
that could be
57:12
measured
57:12
That's something
57:13
that could look
57:13
at if they're
57:14
able to sell
57:15
fish. They're
57:15
able to benefit
57:16
economically and
57:17
socially
57:17
There's a lot of
57:18
things that can
57:19
go in. There's a
57:19
lot of
57:20
collaborations
57:20
that can happen
57:21
You know
57:22
We need money and
57:23
funding to do
57:24
that kind of
57:24
stuff in a
57:25
position where we
57:26
have an
57:26
opportunity to
57:27
look at the
57:28
science of
57:28
these big
57:29
Pictures and when
57:29
you take away a
57:30
million square
57:31
miles from 1.3
57:33
million square
57:34
miles of
57:34
protection
57:35
You know, you're
57:35
looking at a big
57:36
area and this is
57:37
something that
57:38
has been
57:38
unprecedented as
57:39
angela has
57:39
mentioned
57:40
So being able to
57:41
monitor this
57:42
being able to see
57:42
the effects the
57:43
benefits that
57:44
potentially this
57:44
marine protector
57:45
has provided
57:46
And seeing how
57:47
that would do
57:47
opening it up to
57:49
the fishery or
57:49
even if it's over
57:50
the last three or
57:51
four months
57:52
And maybe even
57:53
later on that's
57:54
something that we
57:54
need to measure
57:55
That's something
57:55
that we need to
57:56
find out what the
57:56
benefits are so
57:57
that we can show
57:58
the benefits of
57:59
that if there are
57:59
benefits
58:00
So we're going to
58:00
find out
58:01
hopefully
58:01
through science
58:02
But when the
58:03
public comment
58:04
period comes out
58:05
for opening up
58:06
the marine
58:07
sanctuary again
58:08
We'll definitely
58:08
let you know
58:09
We'll be
58:09
following this
58:10
story because we
58:11
are going to need
58:11
everybody to
58:12
mention why it's
58:14
so important to
58:14
keep this close
58:15
So that's going
58:16
to be something
58:16
that's very
58:16
important
58:17
And I hope that
58:18
you can help us
58:19
with that if you
58:19
have any
58:19
questions or
58:20
comments on this
58:21
episode or
58:21
this topic
58:22
Please put them
58:22
in the comments
58:23
below if you're
58:24
watching
58:24
this on youtube
58:25
Or you can get a
58:25
hold of me by
58:26
going to
58:26
instagram dmme
58:28
Go to act how to
58:29
protect the ocean
58:29
or you can go to
58:30
speak up for
58:31
blue.com forward
58:32
slash contact and
58:33
you can
58:33
contact me
58:34
It goes right to
58:34
my personal email
58:35
I'd love to hear
58:35
from you about
58:36
this subject and
58:37
what you think of
58:38
it all
58:38
politics aside
58:39
Like I get that
58:40
it's a tough time
58:41
in the us
58:42
Let's look at the
58:42
fact that science
58:43
can help
58:44
understand what's
58:45
happened in the
58:46
benefits or
58:46
non-benefits of a
58:48
marine protected
58:48
area in this area
58:49
And especially
58:50
opening up to the
58:51
fisheries. Will
58:52
it benefit? How
58:52
long will it
58:53
benefit?
58:54
What could be the
58:55
consequences of
58:56
opening this up
58:57
too quickly or
58:57
opening
58:58
up at all?
58:58
So that's what I
58:59
want to really
59:00
focus on
59:01
I want to kind of
59:01
keep the politics
59:02
aside to be
59:03
honest because I
59:04
just think people
59:04
are just going to
59:05
get distracted
59:05
You know, it's a
59:06
tough time in the
59:07
us. It's a tough
59:08
time worldwide
59:09
But this is
59:09
something that we
59:10
need to do as
59:10
scientists
59:11
We need to
59:11
science the hell
59:12
out of this and
59:13
that's something
59:13
that's really
59:13
important
59:14
So I want to
59:15
thank you for
59:15
listening to this
59:16
episode of how to
59:17
protect the
59:17
ocean podcast
59:18
I want to thank
59:18
angela for coming
59:19
on and bringing
59:20
this to our
59:20
attention and
59:21
thank you for
59:22
listening
59:22
This is something
59:23
that is really
59:23
important to me
59:24
to get you know
59:25
ocean literacy
59:26
out there and to
59:27
make sure that we
59:28
understand
59:28
What's happening
59:29
in the ocean and
59:30
understanding the
59:30
complexities that
59:31
happen as angela
59:32
highlighted
59:33
But I want to
59:33
thank you again
59:34
for listening
59:34
This has been
59:35
another exciting
59:36
episode of the
59:36
how to protect
59:37
the ocean podcast
59:38
I'm your host
59:38
angela and from
59:39
the true north
59:39
strong and free.
59:40
Have a great day
59:41
We'll talk to you
59:41
next time and
59:42
happy
59:42
conservation