Latest / Inspiring Stories / What is Depth Psychology with Dr Lukovich

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What is Depth Psychology with Dr Lukovich · Inspiring Stories

0:04
Thank you for listening to de Pictures Media Radio. You rat you readything to
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me? Oh well, jus well not a bad stop alone. I just
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see you so slash stop along this, it says, am alright, welcome
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back everybody. We all have these struggles between why do we do that?
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Let maybe do that? We'll cause that urge? Why am I thinking about
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that right now? And why did I dream what I distript? There's internal
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conflict in our minds and when we start asking a why of ourselves? Kind
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of interesting, kind of fun. Well, our next guest may may actually
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have a living at answering those questions for you. Our next guest is an
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expert in depth psychology and depth psychology. Well, my first question when I
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first met Deborah was what the heck is depth psychology mean? At first,
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I couldn't even say it right because I didn't know what it would, never
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heard of it before. But what in essence, what it is is the
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research and science of the unconscious, covering both psycho analysis and psychology. It
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is just fined as the psychological theory that explores the relationship between conscious and unconsciousness,
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as well as partners in dynamics in and of the motivated mind. It
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includes, of course, the classics of the theories of Ziegmin, Freud,
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Karl Gustav and Alfred Alder. You know, well there are classics for psychology
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to begin with, right, So I'm gonna let Deborah tell her story about
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why she got into this and what it means for her. I'm not even
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going to attempt to try to try to figure this out because I'm still trying
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to figure out depth psychology. So why don't we bring Deborah on the show?
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And first thing we're gonna do is find out how she found it and
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why I did she go into this? And she has a PhD. And
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she uses that PhD to help others make their own discoveries something. So welcome
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to the show, Deborah. You know what, I just realized that my
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whole introduction, I've never said your last name. So then I realized that
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I don't even know how to pronounce your last name. So I'll tell you
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Lukas look of it. Yeah, looka, it's look Ukovic mm hmm from
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like Poland or something Croatia Croatian. Although I although I don't think it's in
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the original format, I think it was changed. So I heard but and
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it might have been originally Lucavic. So, but I like Lukavic. Yeah,
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I realized I and I and I've been following on Twitter for almost two
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years now, and I finally struck up the courage to connect with you.
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It was like, could you say some pretty awesome stuff on Twitter? And
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for those listening, it's like, if you want to follow Debora on Twitter,
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it's really easy because you just type in her name and it and there
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it is. She searches really well through Twitter and a lot of other social
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media. And anyway, so depth psychology I'm having like my brain's like,
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my brain can understands quantum physics and a lot of Eastern philosophy, but my
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brain is having trouble with depth psychology. And you've made like you do coaching
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and everything around this, and it's like and you have and you have a
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for real PhD in depth psychology, So how did you get there? Well,
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first of all, I want to say that if you enjoy the Eastern
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approach to spirituality and you love the quantum realm, that's very much in alignment
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with depth psychology. In fact, Wolfgang poly So, who I don't know
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exactly what his role is, but he was very important, like a century
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ago and sort of these theories about quantum and he and Carl Jung, one
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of the founders of dep psychology, were pen pals. Yeah, I do.
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When you look at Wikipedia, you see you see these people pop up.
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And because the quanta is this little package of energy. So maybe if
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we apply when we can have little packages of reality, well, well you
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know, I don't know. Dep psychology is a great for those of us
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who I think it's a great bridge actually between spirituality and science, because while
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so many people think they're really two different things, they're really not. They're
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just different lenses right through which to and they ask different questions. And I
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have found psychology to be really a bridge and even a bridge between people who
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have a very definite who are attached to a doctrine, a religious doctrine,
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and the psychological experience of religion. So dep psychology is and the fact that
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you're like, I don't even really know how to wrap my arms around this
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is really a reflection of the fact that depth psychology is the study of the
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unconscious and psychology. The root of the word psychology is soul and its breath.
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So the root of psychology and the feel of psychology has to do with
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soul in meaning, and today you would think it has to do with the
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brain. And you know, all the research on the brain may just confirm,
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you know, these depth psychology theories, but that's not psychology. Psychology
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is about healing and soul and finding meanings. So to answer your question about
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how it found me, because that's what happened, is it was a synchronicity.
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I was having a midlife unraveling. So you could say I had lived
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the first part of my life in a very business plan oriented way, which
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we would say is a masculine approach to life, not meaning man or male,
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but meaning linear, goal setting, achievement oriented forward looking, externally,
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looking that sort of thing, using reason in the mind, in the intellect,
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spirit, spiritual heaven. That's all masculine. And as somebody who came
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of age in the eighties, especially a woman who came of age in the
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eighties, we really had to develop our masculine sense in order to fit into
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the world, the world of business or whatever. And so suddenly I found
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myself having and unraveling and got to the point where I was sort of lost
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and realized I couldn't fix things, and that was really hard for I'm a
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recovering control freak, recovering perfectionists, not controlling of others, but controlling of
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my self and my emotions, and so all that sort of started falling apart.
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And then there was this day that I went on a walk with my
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family and on the way to the walk, it started raining, and I
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was excited. It was a summer rain, it was warm. I was
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like, oh, this is so romantic. And my now ex husband,
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but my former husband was like cranky, and he got the kids cranky.
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And then I'm like, you know what, fine, I'm just walking by
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myself. But I had this like little realization. It was my first little
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insight that snuck out of my unconscious and it was like, oh, this
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is familiar, this feeling of just being exhausted, of having to negotiate im
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mediate the energies between all the members of my family. And we went,
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so we went, they followed me. We went into this old fashioned pharmacy
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and I made a beeline to the magazine rack and I hadn't bought a yoga
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journal in a really long time, and I was like, I don't know,
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I want to buy yoga journal, and that night in the bathroom.
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I don't usually read what I'm going to the bathroom, but I was paging
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through the back page and there it was a logo for pacifica graduate institute with
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a program a master's PhD in depth psychology. And I was like, what
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is that? And it was red and orange and fiery and il chemical,
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and I was like, I don't know what that is, but I have
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to have it. And I went to my computer and I'm like, I've
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heard of Carl Jung, but I don't know. This is so mysterious.
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What is this language? And I knew it was like the first time in
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my life that I listened to interrational desire, and I became fixated on getting
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myself to that program. Now, a lot of stuff happened in between by
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the time I got there. It was really a defining moment in my marriage
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and and all of that, but it really was a synchronicity. So I
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had a moment of surrender. And surrender doesn't mean giving up, but it
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does mean surrendering and being open to extraordinary knowing, to a different source of
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wisdom other than the mind. So I didn't know why what I was going
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to do with it was very expensive, and even when I got there it
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really I still didn't know what I was going to do with it, but
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it was very clear that the purpose was to help me understand and find meaning
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in my own life. And then when I went on for the PhD coursework,
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I was like, or am I going to research? I don't know.
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I love education. Let's talk about an young yeen approach to education.
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And then I was called to study and my research is on women's experience of
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reconciling sexuality and spirituality through this theory that young calls individuation. And I was
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like, no, I don't want to research sex and god what? But
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I was led. So again it was a series of just very mysterious synchronicities
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that because I was so at a loss of what to do and how to
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fix my life, I had to let it go. I had to fall
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apart, and then I had to become comfortable with not knowing. And so
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that's how I got there. And then after I got there, it was
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amazing how every course came in the nick of time, every theory I lived.
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I was like, oh, oh my gosh, I'm living what they're
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talking about I'm in the grip of a complex right now, I'm sweating,
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and it was just interesting. And as I look back, it was clear
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that that was a plan, a hidden unconscious agenda from my unconscious And now,
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of course, all of that eventually turned into a sense of new purpose
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and now I'm on a mission to grow a movement of self reflecting humans and
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I do that in many ways through dep psychology, coaching, books, blog,
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podcast and all of that. So that's kind of a reader's digest version
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of the story. Go to our website and get the longer version too.
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And the juicy stuff that was not needed in my dissertation, which is about
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sex and God, is coming out in the memoir that's coming soon. Oh
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cool, So yeah, we'll have to talk more about the memoir and how
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to get it and how to get the audiobook and all that stuff too.
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Yeah yeah, oh, very cool. Because well, our modern sexuality is
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based on something that happened about fifteen more than fifteen hundred years ago with imper
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Constantine trying to figure out how to fix the Roman Empire so they would it
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would survive for thousands of years later, and he came up with the Catholic
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Church. You think about the Lake of how a lot of a lot of
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the morality that's out there, that sex is bad and if you want to
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have sex, then there's something wrong with you, and that we're finally in
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our modern age trying to figure the unrival that part. It's like, yeah,
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well, I love the topic of sexuality and spirituality and uh, but
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I come at it from with a different lens, a depth psychology lens,
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And unfortunately we're not educated about how to have a framework to really understand the
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deeper meaning of sexuality and sexual attraction and sexual arousal. Because sexuality is it's
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creative intelligence, it's it's creative energy. And so I help people understand that
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instead of, for example, if you have a sexual fantasy and it includes
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for example, oh, during my own midlife reconstruction, I had a fantasy.
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And we think we make fantasies, but no, we don't. We
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receive fantasies. Their images spontaneous that come up from the unconscious, and sometimes
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they can cause embarrassment. Right, So I had a submission fantasy and it
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tortured me all day long. I'd be sitting in the middle of a business
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meeting, and I'm like having this sub sexual submission fantasy. I'm like,
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go away, stop it, go like what do you stop it? What
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are you doing? And not until I drew it. So I literally went
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on Google and said, how do you draw a naked man standing with an
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erect penis? How do you draw a naked woman on her knees like in
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front of this man? And when I drew it, I wrote the words
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receptive. I wrote the word receptive. And so you might have thought that
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my fantasy wanted to be acted out literally, and there was a little bit
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of that going on, but it really the deeper meaning was a need to
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be receptive to myself, my capital s self. So in depth psychology,
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Carl Jung talks about an ordering principle, this higher part of you. I
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don't know, you could call it an intuition, but it knows more about
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you than you do, and it's kind of prompting you towards growth. It
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doesn't make decisions for you. It's not like fate. It's about grow,
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grow, expand, expand and brings you things that mirror back, things that
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want to be expect you, and then you expand your your consciousness. So
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So what I do with people is I have a space for them so we
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can explore sexuality. And sometimes there is a literal component of it. Sometimes
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it must be acted out in order to actually experience what wants to be experienced
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psychologically. But sometimes it doesn't need to be acted out. And so I
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love all of that, and for me, uh, you know, part
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of why there's there's so much dismantling going on, right, dismantling, dismantling
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of conventional forms of relationship and sexuality and gender and you know, I sometimes
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say, you know, l G B, t Q A plus what like,
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there's going to be so many letters at some point that we don't need
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any letters, right, that they're just we just are. Yeah, see
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that, And then waiting for that to happen because well, I don't know
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if I've discussed this with you or not discussed this with you, because I
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do receive criticisms because I wear a lot of pink, and then there's this
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thing out there that says, and it's in the school systems and everything that
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says that if I wear pink, then I am a trans person. Okay,
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So in the eighties it was so cool for men to wear pink.
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I don't understand how we backtracked on that. It's so fascinating. And you
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also you also know that that of course I was a teenager in the eighties.
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Right. It's like, oh, so you're so confused now, right,
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because you're like, I thought women liked it when men were pink.
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And I mean it's kind of crazy, the the the regression of you know,
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tolerance and and and it's like, I don't like if I have to
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go into into the downtown area because I I live out towards the beach.
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If I had to go into the downtown area, I take the bus because
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I don't want to drive in traffic. Right, So I'm stand around waiting
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for the bus, and I had on some sort of strappy three inch heel
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sandal thing, right, and you know, in the sport jacket, pink
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shirt and bell bottom jeans. Right, And this wellman comes up to me
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and she says, how do you identify yourself? That's a really bold question
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to ask a stranger, like you could be like, but I give her
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credit for asking the question. She was curious, Yeah, she was curious,
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So she asked the question, or so I thought she was curious.
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So I answered a question. I said, well, simply put, I
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may and she and Jesus what this that mean? Are a great answer?
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Are you are? Are you into men? Are you? I said no?
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I said, I'm actually married to a woman, and and I just
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like to dress like this. It's just my fashion. And she's like,
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oh, well, then she went into let started leading into a church full
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of gay people where I can be open to be who I am and you
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can come out too, and no one will will harm you. Oh that's
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so fascinating. It was. It was like this was It's like, my
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my brain is like because I have that that that science need to ask questions,
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poke, prade, experiments or so I started telling my language so that
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it would see, well, how far does she can go with this before
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the bus comes? Because now I'm curious. Yeah, I love it,
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but but the thing is is that that language that she was asking me about
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is of course in our school systems now, and and I didn't know how
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far it was going because hey, I don't know about you. My kids
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are grown there, they've they've actually I've actually had one graduate from university.
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So yeah, so I'm like, what do you mean talking to this to
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this person who has children in elementary school and at ten years old, they
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were talking about, Oh well, if you like to play with this,
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then you have to be a trans person. Oh what, I'm like,
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Wait, that doesn't make sense. It's like all kinds of things are going
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off of all of all it is is just new categories, trying to shove
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people in new categories. Well, this is a prot Well there's there's first
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of all, there's so much to this interaction, and there's actually a couple
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depth psychology concepts that come into play. So there's projection. Right, So
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projection, simply put is you know we project our worldview, our world,
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our life experience onto other people's experiences. Right, So that's basically it.
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But we relate through projection. We don't relate unless there's projection. So it
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just is it just happens all the time. So as we interact or as
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she asked you a question, I mean, there's projection going on. I
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mean she didn't. It's she's also an example of how very well meaning people
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can actually can actually continue unintentionally intellerance. Right, it was just a different
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it was just it's just a different kind of It's like I just uh.
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I bought a book about a year ago called nice Racism and the subtitle is
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how white progressive people unintentionally like perpetuate uh subtle racism. Right. So this
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is another example of she's all, She's all like, hey, look at
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me. I go to a welcoming church. You're welcome at my church,
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even if you're this or that. And you're like, what, like,
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why do you want to put me in a box, Like I'm glad you're
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curious. I'm glad, like you go to a very welcoming church, but
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you're still part of this problem that is still just trying to move around the
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categories, even though you're you're tolerant of all the categories, but you still
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want to like categorize people, right, And that was one of those one
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of those things that okay, and another layer for myself as A asked her
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that, I was like, but we can't disappoint our figure and say those
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people m hm, and she in, while the church is opening in a
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lot of a lot of ways, which is very cool, we still have
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to find our way around to stop saying those people. Well, it's condescending
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because you you are me like, she doesn't realize that you're mirroring back her
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something that she needs to explore in herself. She's so curious, right,
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and she fancies herself as a very welcoming person, but her her line of
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questioning really is mirroring back. She has a lot more work to do about
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her own self acceptance because in the end, it's about your comfort with yourself.
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Let me ask you this, because because we're we we both have trails
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back into the nineteen eighties. At what age did you did you finally learn
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to like yourself? And at what age did you learn to love yourself?
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I don't really know how to answer that question when I know some more d
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dep psychology for you, Uh, part of coming into deeper relationship with yourself
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is to find the origins of your patterns, right, your patterns of belief
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and behaving and thinking, and your out you know, your outlook and life
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and your worldview and that sort of thing. And when I came in into
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real relationship with my mother, wounds my parental complex is I realized that my
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role for my mother was to be an example of how she was a better
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mother than her abusive mother. So she wanted to do better. But in
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doing better. How would she know she was doing better except by my behavior.
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So I really existed to mirror back to her that she was doing so,
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in a way, the answer to your question is, I didn't really
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have my own identity. I existed for the purpose of mirroring back something to
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somebody. So it wouldn't be until my midlife and raveling that I sort of
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came to understand that now. I always liked myself. I was debilitatingly shy,
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I had been bullied. I was I'm in infj meaning introverted and intuitive,
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and so I'm like three percent of the entire world's population are people like
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me. So I'm sensitive, I'm in touch. I'm always in touch with
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something bigger, that's going on, something archetypal. So I can also be
28:03
very overwhelmed. And to say I'm self conscious is an understatement. But self
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conscious doesn't necessarily mean that you're insecure. It means yourself you're conscious of every
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single movement, every breath that you're taking, and you're also open to the
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energies that flow in from other people. So it can be a very overwhelming,
28:27
overwhelming experience. But I was very forward looking, and so I didn't
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and I became an activist at a young age. In my twenties, I
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was an activist, so I sort of found my confidence in advocating for others.
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So I didn't really have to think about myself. I knew that I
28:49
wanted, I had goals. I wanted to be a business person, and
28:53
I advocated and I and I found meaning by my desire to make the world
28:57
a better place, so that actually, in a way, is a diversion.
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In fact, when I was forty eight, I was receiving an award
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from a United Way and Milwaukee. It was a Philanthropic five award, and
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I prepared my five minute speech, and part of it was like what you
29:15
would assume somebody getting an award would say, Like I remembered all these women
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who encouraged me and said, yes, of course you can do that,
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dub. So I needed that. But I found those women so I always
29:26
did what terrified me anyway. And then as I read my last sentence up
29:33
at the podium in front of one hundred and fifty people, I said,
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oh, I discovered I make a difference walking around being me. And I
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started sobbing because I hadn't known that I hadn't believed that, and in order
29:52
to actually get that insight, I would have had to shift it. So
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that's kind of an answer to your question, is that in that moment,
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I realized that oh I exist, I am worthy because I exist. Now
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what did that do? Well? Now I had to deal with Oh my
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god. So my hidden agenda for being an activist was validation. Oh crap.
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So everything has a light in a dark side. So being an activist
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was that a good thing? Yes? I did a lot of great work.
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But if you're being an activist out of a need for validation, that's
30:29
not altruism. No, no, you're you No, Nope, not if
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you're doing it out of need. So when I agree with you disagree when
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I discovered, oh, it's very cringey to experience like the shame of like
30:44
your hidden agenda behind things. But that's the unconscious is you want to be
30:48
aware of what is the hidden agenda behind what you're doing. So after that
30:55
I came into better relationship with my new purpose of building a movement of self
31:00
reflecting humans. I don't need to do it. I don't need it to
31:04
feel good about myself. I do it, which means that is altruistic.
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I don't need to be good at it. I don't need to do it.
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And guess what, if I don't need to do it, I can
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fully unleash because I'm not worried about how I'm doing it. I don't need
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the validation anymore. So you know what I'm saying. So that's a really
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long answer to your question about I always liked myself and I always did what
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terrified me, and I dealt with that, and then there was that moment
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where I was like, Oh, I'm just worthy because I'm here. That's
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self love. Yeah, yeah, no, oh, that is That is
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the the the answer I was kind of looking for in the answer that a
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lot of people need to hear, and because there's a lot out there it,
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you know, like our families and everything is like, I don't know
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who you think you are, but you don't need to do that. We
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don't do that. Why do you think that you need to have your own
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business? It's like, why don't you just do what we do and we're
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perfectly fine. You're the abnormal one. And it's like you hear all that
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noise from from the yeah, from people around you in that way, you
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know, it's hard, though, and the person who hears that it's not
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easy to change or it's not easy to be you when people around you don't
32:31
validate that it's okay for you to be you. That requires being able to
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realize that people who are telling you not to be different, you're threatening to
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them. You're shot. By you being different, you're shining a light on
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what needs to be explored in themselves. It's really shining a light on their
32:52
own sense of insecurity. So don't you know, don't do that. You're
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making me feel like I I'm not exploring myself, and I don't want to
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be reminded that I'm not exploring myself. But if you don't become yourself and
33:07
become authentic, you're actually enabling those around you to not explore themselves. So
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you're not helping them by conforming. By you being brave enough to not conform
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and to be authentic, you're disrupting this little codependent pattern where you each affirm
33:29
and confirm what's always been and you're shaking up the energy. And it's none
33:34
of your business how they respond to your authenticity. But if you become authentic,
33:40
you liberate them from your part of the codependent thing or the psychological core,
33:46
the thing that they're expecting you to respond to them in a certain way,
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and when you have the courage to disrupt that, you're giving them a
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gift. So if you look at it that way, because especially for some
33:59
women, they're uncomfortable like claiming their space in the world, But if they
34:04
understand that claiming your purpose in the world actually liberates other people to do the
34:10
same, right, and a lot of people are more comfortable with that knowing
34:16
that, oh like seriously, like if I advocate for myself, I'm actually
34:22
helping them. Yes, you are. You're shining a light, You're disrupting
34:25
the energy. I call it kind of a form of nonviolent resistance because psychologically,
34:30
what that means is you're just disrupting the patterning the pattern enough where there's
34:37
disfuses the other person because they're like, she didn't respond the way that she
34:40
usually does. What's going on there? And in that space they're vulnerable.
34:44
You're vulnerable, and then there is a potential connection that can be made and
34:49
then and then you know, we don't know what, Well, that's not
34:52
of our business, that's true, and you know, but that's the beauty
34:59
part of then not knowing what they'll do, knowing what they'll do with it.
35:05
It's not your responsibility. It is your responsibility to claim your own psychology.
35:12
Hm. Hm, the creed. I like that, So we we
35:20
should we should make that a bumper sticker or something. No, sorry,
35:24
be going back to the eighties singing again. Well, here's here's a good
35:29
bumper sticker. When you understand someone's psychology, their behavior makes perfect sense.
35:37
When you understand your own psychology, everything you've ever done makes perfect sense.
35:43
So you don't have to feel bad about it. Like when you understand your
35:46
psychology, everything you've ever done is like, well, of course I did
35:51
that. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, because there's a lot of self
35:54
judgment. A lot of self judgment is what keeps people from coming into deeper
36:00
relationship with themselves. What was the one thing that you you were curious about
36:07
that you did did besides that psychology we got into we we you already answered
36:14
part of that question. That with that, the whole idea that you are
36:17
who you are is because of because of a curiosity and a drawing. Uh,
36:23
it was an obsession that was a wonderful discovery. With that and that
36:30
did a beautiful picture that you painted. I wish I could turn it into
36:35
a movie for you. Oh well, I do have a vision that my
36:39
memoir will becomes a movie or an online series or something. It is part
36:45
of my vision. Oh boy, we're in trouble. I mean that in
36:52
a very kind and joking way. I know. But what maybe something something
37:02
else about you, a quirky thing that you that you actually do or that
37:07
you always do, that started out as a curiosity and then it just became
37:10
part of you. Uh well, I would say I'm a self proclaimed nerd.
37:20
Oh this is a recent nerdy thing or quirky thing. There's a whole
37:23
field subfield, and psychology is so huge. You're right about that. Uh
37:29
there's a whole field called Youngian film theory. And during a phase, well
37:38
during I call my midlife unraveling reconstruction, and then I don't know what phase
37:45
I'm in right now, But now I'm like unleashing. I guess is what
37:47
it is. But during my unraveling, there were certain films that helped me
37:54
gain insights about myself. And one I suggest that every watch because I think
38:00
the theme is if you're wondering about your parental complexes, the origins of all
38:07
your patterns of thinking and behaving. Of course, they're in your childhood.
38:10
Those are your that's your first experience of relating to other human beings. Watch
38:15
the movie Into the Woods. There's all kinds of stars in it, like
38:19
Crispine and Emma Blunt and Meryl Streep and oh my gosh, like it's filled
38:23
with stars. And it takes five fairy tales because fairy tales, of course
38:30
represent archetypal experiences, right like universal experiences, coming of age, falling in
38:37
love, the hero's journey, things like that, And the similarity of all
38:43
the fairy tales is that there's always the woods, and the woods is the
38:50
place of transformation. The woods is a place of fear. The woods is
38:53
a place of getting lost. You have to get lost and then fall apart,
38:59
and then you have to knew pieces of you. So I was like,
39:02
not only found what I found when I watched this movie is I came
39:06
to understand my former husband's parental complexes more. And so each time that comes
39:12
up in a deep psychology coaching session with a client where I'm like, I
39:15
don't know, I feel like you should watch the film into the woods.
39:19
Oh they come back and they're like, oh my gosh, I saw something
39:22
I couldn't see before. Because the unconscious speaks through images. Image is the
39:28
language of the unconscious. An image isn't just a visual image, it's I
39:32
well, this is my my definition. It's an impression. So an emotion
39:37
is an image. A symbol which is not a sign, that's different.
39:45
A symbol is an image. A temperature can be an image. You wake
39:50
up and all you notice about a dream is that you were in the wind
39:53
or something like that, and there was this sort of that is an image
39:58
that you can that you can explore. So fairy tales are great for images.
40:04
So anyway, that gets me to then one of my papers and my
40:08
master's part of the program was analyzing Fifty Shades of Gray. It wasn't a
40:15
book that I read. I was I'm mostly a nonfiction reader. But my
40:21
sister reading it really intrigued me and she's like, this is a love story.
40:24
That's how I read it. And then the first movie came out and
40:28
I saw the movie and I was like, why I wrote about it was
40:32
the responses were extreme. There was a kind of liberating response. And then
40:42
there was also this judgmental, fearful response, and whenever there's that, that
40:50
movie is meant to hold the tension between what is perceived to be an opposition.
40:57
That's another depth psychology concept that Young called the transcendent third. So any
41:04
time of growth, any kind of growth psychologically, is about, oh,
41:07
there's this and it's in conflict with this. How do I reconcile these two
41:10
ideas. We're witnessing living through the ultimate climaxing of what is perceived to be
41:16
an opposition, and there is the collective unconsciousness begging for a reconciliation of what
41:22
is perceived to be in opposition. So anyway, so that I analyzed that
41:30
movie on different levels, and then I didn't realize that it was speaking to
41:32
me, and that led to sort of that fantasy about submission that had more
41:37
to do with me surrendering and submitting to my own sort of self, which
41:43
is the bridge, which is the bridge to the divine. And for me,
41:46
there wasn't a divine. I'm like, I'm here all by myself.
41:52
So then I went through so as I gained insights from these films, then
41:55
during my reconstruction, it was the fall of twenty nineteen, and there were
42:00
three movies, Gravity, Interstellar and Oh, sorry to make you cough like
42:09
that. I've seen those movies. You've got all excited. Interstellar Gravity,
42:15
and the other one was Matt Damon was it The Martian or Mars or something
42:19
like that. And those movies what I saw in there is they each had
42:22
this nuanced reconciliation of the masculine and feminine. And I could have a whole
42:28
chat about what that was, but it really is like our our collective trying
42:32
to reconcile these masculine and feminine and have them come into not so much as
42:38
balanced, but equal appreciation for each of those movements. Well then, oh
42:45
see, see there was another movie in there. I wonder if you saw
42:47
it with Meryl Street don't look up, oh, because yes, because it
42:54
was a whole comedy that was based on some of the same topic matter that
42:59
was in the other three movies, but they did it in such a funny
43:01
way that you just oh cracked yourself up through the whole movie. Well,
43:07
I mean, I mean you could have a whole conversation about how fantastic and
43:10
how how it's not even fictional, right, Like, don't look up is
43:15
actually happening right now. So and then the last the last series of movies
43:21
were sci fi or superhero movies and one of the most powerful one and I
43:27
would recommend this for people who want to explore themselves is to see how they
43:32
experienced the movie called Alita Battle Angel. It's full of imagery and lots of
43:40
opposites and self discovery. So the I don't even remember why. The reason
43:47
is that I brought this up was that during a part of my experience,
43:53
once I came into deeper relationship with like my own patterns and prontal complexes,
43:59
and I've found my Oh, I have a fear of feeling trapped, and
44:02
that's why I have to sit on an aisle and an airplane and movie theater
44:06
and like why am I doing that? Because I felt suffocated my mother all
44:09
that kind of stuff. Once you understand your personal complex is then the doorway
44:15
opens up for the archetypal energies to come and use you. So once you
44:21
are more solid in yourself, the archetypal energies can use you for the benefit
44:24
of expanding consciousness out there. So those movies like a Lada Battle Angel help
44:30
me see what was going on beneath the surface of the collective, which is
44:36
why I can stay sane given what's going on right now, is that I
44:40
can see the archetypal and the el chemical thing that's going on that the climaxing
44:46
of, for example, the regression of hatred and intolerance, but also counter
44:51
by a movement of more individual self reflection. That the work that I do,
44:55
my clients do is making them different people, and that will eventually coalesce
45:01
into new ideas, into new new expansion of consciousness. And so that's how
45:08
I stay sane. That's all. That's a lot to stay sane with.
45:14
Okay, because oh so now you now you know how I'm a nerd.
45:21
That's my nerd. That's my core case. Sorry, it's it is clearly
45:24
clearly uh uh nerdy there it is. Yeah, okay, But for for
45:32
sake, for sake of argument and getting getting back to getting back to some
45:38
of the format of the show, because we just we just do it all
45:42
to the win there for a while. Uh, what is some of the
45:46
things that you want people people work with you? What do you want them
45:49
to get out of working with you? Well? Uh, I mean,
45:58
bottom line that they come into deeper relationship with their self capital s which then
46:07
and that's good enough right there. So if they many people come to me
46:12
because they feel stuck, stuck in a relationship, stuck in a career.
46:15
Some people come to me because they feel called, but the calling is to
46:21
an unknown place, which is terrifying, and because they don't know the answer
46:24
and how to get there, they find themselves not able to take a step.
46:29
Other people, I mean other people come to me. They're already creative,
46:36
but they know they have some work to do, that there's stuff in
46:37
their shadow. They're unconscious that they know that they need to explore and that
46:44
that will impact their writing or their music or whatever. It is my vision
46:52
for them, and I tell them this is that, oh, you have
46:55
no idea how important you are. You're so important to the world expansion of
47:00
consciousness that once you come into deeper relationship with yourself, you know, the
47:07
next part is to surrender to creative intelligence, and that can be terrifying.
47:12
I have a client right now that we talked about. We talked today about
47:16
how he is diverting himself by urges to go gamble and drink, you know,
47:23
just just normal like partying but he knows it's a diversion. And I
47:30
connected it with Or today we talked about how that is a diversion because we
47:37
can be terrified of our own potential, because our potential isn't just ours,
47:44
right, Creative intelligence partners with us. But that's an unknown that's mysterious,
47:51
and so it's like like an example is I had a colleague asked me to
47:55
write a review of his book. I just wrote my blog post on this.
47:59
I want to check it out. It's a really a blog post that
48:04
I have that I haven't written in a long time, something very bold,
48:07
and it has to do with self reflection in a time of conspiracy theories and
48:12
looking up fundamentalism religion. Like it's a very heavy it's a heavy topic.
48:16
And I was procrastinating and it was because I knew I couldn't just like really
48:22
nearly do this, but I was afraid. There was a fear, and
48:27
I'm like, oh my god. So finally last Sunday, I sat down
48:30
at my favorite place and had a glass of wine. Who what areut?
48:31
Eight hours and I wrote this thing. And I did not do it by
48:37
myself. I had to trust that something was going to come in and use
48:40
me and in partnership. I wrote this blog post and it's like fantastic.
48:47
So that's what I want for my clients is that they get to that point
48:51
and then they're able to see that they might divert themselves from their greatness,
48:59
but the greatness is not in service to the ego. It's in service to
49:04
the collective. So if my clients never go there, that's fine. If
49:08
they're just happier and more accepting of themselves and they feel like they can do
49:14
what they desire to do, that's awesome. Wow, that's one hell of
49:21
a result you just hanted somebody. I know. That's a lot. I
49:24
love it, and believe me, I in my psychology coaching sessions when I
49:30
come to life, I am not alone. I am inviting and surrendering to
49:36
creative intelligence in that session. Well, okay, so they creative intelligence.
49:45
It's it's that that the thing, the energy that just flows through the entire
49:51
universe, isn't you're just kind of some people up in in in or allowing
49:57
it to scoop you up. Yeah, I mean some people call it god
50:01
source, the quantum realm, the field of potentiality. I don't know it
50:07
doesn't really matter like potentiality. Yeah right, yeah, that's very very physics
50:16
too, mm hmm. Simply I call it love, yes, love the
50:22
highest frequency, the highest vibrational frequency. Love. Yeah, So it doesn't
50:28
matter what you call it. What it is is it's a sense that you're
50:30
tapping into something that's not you but part but you're part of it. It's
50:37
that and you know, and when you start to be aware of like when
50:43
it's there, it could be it can be scary to people if they don't
50:47
realize, right, it's a religious Those are religious experiences without without half the
51:00
reference back to the big well. Remember today we think of religion as doctrine
51:10
or dogma. The origin of the root religion and religious had nothing to do
51:15
with writing beliefs systems. That had to do with a you know, the
51:20
religious instinct is an instinct to find meaning, to explore your relationship with source.
51:25
I mean, that's all religious, you know is. But now because
51:31
there is this dismantling also of conventional religious forms because they haven't been able to
51:38
keep up that, then people just because people are non religious, it's offensive
51:46
to say that they're also not spiritual or not religious. They just don't attach
51:52
themselves to a doctrine. So I mean, there are some people who are
51:55
like, yeah, no, I'm not spiritual either, but I would after
52:00
having a conversation with them, I'm usually like, well, but you are
52:04
spiritual, but that's okay that you that that's a bad word for you too.
52:08
Well the well, usually what I do do with a lot of people
52:13
in those situations because I love playing with people. It's so much fun.
52:19
Oh did I just say that, Yeah, I leave spirit, religion,
52:27
all that out and and I just substitute in the word energy and yeah.
52:31
It's because they're willing to accept that. So and then but and then by
52:38
by the end of the conversation they're like, oh, I own spiritual,
52:45
spiritual. Yeah, we're all spiritual. We have because we have the energy.
52:50
Yeah, you're not playing with them, you're just like finding like a
52:54
universal translator. Yeah, you're just speaking in language that that you know that
53:00
that they're okay with. Do you do that? You just did something really
53:06
cool? Do you know that the okay? You know the name of our
53:10
business. And I'm being a little egotistical because I'm going to say the name
53:14
of my business. Depictions of media or in the middle of my podcast.
53:17
I usually don't do that, but anyway, but the media part is going
53:23
back to the ancient views of things. Media is that space in the middle
53:31
that the information has to pass through and and find direction from. That's why
53:39
it's media, not not because it's not the not the modern way of thinking
53:49
of media where weld a medium so like a medium. Oh okay, I
53:54
didn't know that. That's why that's why I picked Oh so what I say.
54:00
And when I called you a translator, the translator, the translator,
54:04
it's like, hey, it is really cool how you did that. That
54:07
was pretty cool. I didn't even know what I did. It was it
54:13
was source. I love it. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, we
54:20
get we we can. We can have fun all the time like like that
54:22
and play play with different words. Because you also used a use the word
54:30
masculine in a very ancient way also mm hm and I and I liked how
54:37
you use it because it was a very way of linear thing. Because feminine
54:40
means like that. I describe feminine as that cauldron the ideas bubble up and
54:50
in oh, the womb, the vessel. The feminine is the unconscious.
54:55
That's why there is a fear of the feminine. It's a fear year of
55:00
the unconscious, and the feminine is meandering. The feminine point shouldn't right,
55:09
And the feminine is looks for patterns and connections, is strategic and sorts and
55:15
is patient and circles back to relating, is relating oriented. The feminine is
55:23
where, yeah, where the something's being created, but the masculine is needed
55:30
to bring form to it, right exactly. Yeah, it's like and that's
55:37
the whole balance of Yeah, the of the of the ancient symbols. Yeah,
55:43
And and I think it's not so much about balance, is about fluidity,
55:49
because there are times for the masculine and there are times for the feminine.
55:54
And sometimes I mean I had like a during the beginning of my PhD
56:00
research, the books that I was called to read, I felt like I
56:05
had to read the whole book. You can't read the whole book of every
56:08
book that ends up being a reference in your dissertation. And it scared me.
56:13
But it was where I started. I started with, you know,
56:16
Youngian ideas and depth psychological perspective about religion is where I started, and it
56:22
was like a bottomless pit for me. I love it. I love the
56:23
topic and I was like, Oh my god, how am I going to
56:29
finish? I just when is this going to stop? And then one day
56:32
my dissertation, my committee chair emailed me and asked, Hey, how's it
56:37
going. And I was like, I snapped out of a trance. It
56:40
was like oh. And then I felt like something had ended, some kind
56:45
of feminine space had ended, where all I was doing was like absorbing,
56:50
absorbing, absorbing, and things were mixing in me and I didn't know.
56:53
I couldn't make any sense of it. And then I think I started writing.
56:58
And then I the next books that I read, I was like,
57:00
oh, okay, all I need is this chapter, all I need is
57:05
this section. But there was something about and I was called to those books.
57:08
I'd go to my bookshelf and I'd be like, yep, this is
57:12
the one. This is the one that's that's the feminine. The feminine is
57:15
mysterious. And then when I had to sit down, and then I even
57:19
said to her, I said, oh, time to bring my masculine,
57:22
Like I got to get going here. I need to take what's been stirring
57:25
in me, and I need to bring form to it, in the form
57:29
of notes or in the form of writing or conclusions or whatever it is.
57:32
So that's kind of how what I think the goal is is this fluidity,
57:39
and it is a partnership. And partnerships are four part Partnerships are hard work.
57:47
They take consciousness. Equality is hard work, Tolerance is hard work.
57:53
Spirituality, there's different levels of spirituality. The lowest level, which is for
58:00
which some people will be on. The level one is tell me how to
58:07
think and how to behave. And there's a really great book. Robin Robertson
58:16
wrote a depth psychology interpretation of the Book of Revelation. So the Old Testament
58:23
is like, Okay, here's what we think our relationship with sources. He's
58:30
out there, he's mean, he's a he all this stuff. New Testament,
58:34
Oh, our sources actually were part of source source comes closer to us.
58:39
Book of Revelation. No theologians know what it means. But if you
58:45
read a depth psychology perspective, you will make so much sense of what's going
58:50
on right now, and you'll you'll even you know the seven churches are in
58:54
his interpretation, these seven levels of spirituality, and you know the level where
59:00
you actually need to hold the tension between the old idea and where we're being
59:06
called and how do you find the transcendent third? The new idea that includes
59:09
expansiousness of consciousness is love? Right, So everybody's playing their role. Yeah,
59:16
they really are. Like, yeah, I'm going to say this as
59:22
the theologian because I have one series of degrees in theology. Oh yeah,
59:28
that's all right, And I also have another series of degrees that are very
59:34
science based in chemistry and stuff like that. Right. I So, anyway,
59:38
my ying and my yang whatever, I would say this that revelations is
59:45
also it's a dream, it's a vision, and it's very unconscious as you
59:52
keep going at So there's the reason why we're trying to put conscious thought to
59:59
it. It will never make sense that way. No, it's so image
1:00:05
oriented. Oh my gosh. Yes, So anyway, I hate to say
1:00:09
this, but we've ran out of time. So you kind of tell people
1:00:12
how to get a hold of you. Oh, okay, you can.
1:00:15
You can find all things Deborah Lukovic at Deborah Lukovic dot com. At the
1:00:22
top is are all my social tags, my YouTube channel, my Dose of
1:00:28
Depth podcast, my following me on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn whatever it is,
1:00:35
uh, And then I have a blog uh. And then I have
1:00:38
my book Your Soul Is Talking? Are you listening? I actually read every
1:00:45
chapter as a separate episode on my dose of podcast, so you can actually
1:00:50
listen to it for free. You can listen to me read it and what
1:00:54
else. Yeah, that's where you can find everything about me. And then
1:00:58
oh and then my homepage. If you want to explore the possibility of dep
1:01:05
psychology coaching, I offer a thirty minute free exploratory chat and there's a button
1:01:12
that will take you to my profile on heal me and you can schedule through
1:01:15
there. So that's me. And then I'm still looking for people to be
1:01:20
on my launch team for my memoir, so I definitely just have to get
1:01:23
it out and launch it before the end of the year. So that's my
1:01:27
goal. So I'm looking for help. We'll have to talk more about that
1:01:30
too. Okay, awesome, So to everybody, go to Deborah Leikovic dot
1:01:36
com and one of one of the things that is going to pop up in
1:01:42
a few seconds after you've been there, and you're gonna type in when the
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thing pops up, type in your email address, type in all the other
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information from Deborah as like I've subscribed to to Deborah's website into a lot of
1:02:02
her thinking a long time ago, and she has never ceased to amaze me.
1:02:08
So anyway, with that being said, thank everybody for listening. Find
1:02:14
that subscribe button wherever it may be, because you're gonna hear more from Deborah
1:02:20
in the future, I'm sure. And you can get a few more updates
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and inspiring stories from everybody we've listened to that we have interviewed and by clicking
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So I was you pron match? So what game this is? Says I
1:03:21
reason to sit up chow shots? We can't try? S wait? So
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