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Hamster Book Club - Ruby Red (featuring Andrew Batty, Jon Arnold & Luke Sims-Jenkins) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:02
  It was the coldest winter she had ever known.
• 0:06
  Ranavir suppressed a shiver, her breath misting out ahead of her
• 0:10
  like smoke from some great fire breathing beast.
• 0:13
  Even the fur cloaks and padded tunics of a novgor.
• 0:18
  It was the coldest winter she had ever known.
• 0:22
  Ranavir suppressed a shiver, her breath misting out ahead of her
• 0:26
  like smoke from some great fire breathing beast.
• 0:29
  Even the fur cloaks and padded tunics of the Novgorodian army
• 0:32
  only did so much to keep out the chill and away from the fires of
• 0:36
  the camp. The cold was biting out here.
• 0:40
  The pine forest went on forever. Snow fell in clumps, coating the
• 0:44
  world in unblemished white, swallowing the sun and making
• 0:48
  visibility all but impossible. Added to the shadows of darkness
• 0:52
  of the forest, walking in any direction became an exercise in
• 0:56
  daring. Ranavir had snuck away from the
• 0:59
  camp just before dawn, hurrying into the woods before anyone
• 1:02
  could spot and question her. Prince Alexander was too
• 1:06
  preoccupied with repelling the Estonian forces to worry about 1
• 1:10
  lone mercenary, and the sentries were looking for people coming
• 1:13
  in, not out. Ranavir burrowed deeper into her
• 1:17
  furs, suppressing a groan. What was she doing here?
• 1:21
  What had made her think she was ever going to find where she
• 1:24
  buried the spheres out here in all this?
• 1:28
  No time to draw a map, No time to construct a marker.
• 1:32
  She had to find it. And now she was lost.
• 1:36
  She had no idea how far she was from camp.
• 1:39
  She'd been walking almost the entire morning.
• 1:42
  Beyond the fringe of pine needles, the trees ahead opened
• 1:45
  onto a tiny clearing. Something about the clearing
• 1:48
  struck Ranovir as familiar hope stirred in her chest.
• 1:53
  There, in the corner of the clearing, something glinted Ruby
• 1:56
  red beneath the snow. There, covered by a fresh layer
• 2:00
  of snowfall, a ball of metal the size of a helmet lay concealed
• 2:04
  in the snow, clumsily forged from a hodgepodge of metal parts
• 2:08
  welded in place and thick with frost.
• 2:11
  Embedded in the middle of the ball, a bright red light flashed
• 2:14
  on and off. Renovia let out a desperate
• 2:17
  little laugh. Someone had found her.
• 2:20
  Someone had answered the signal. She clapped her hand over her
• 2:24
  mouth to muffle the laugh. Too late, a new sound had begun
• 2:29
  far off between the trees. A low, throbbing, rushing sound
• 2:33
  like wind sweeping down the mountainside.
• 2:36
  She knew that sound, knew it all too well.
• 2:42
  Then 2 heavy armoured figures barreled into the clearing.
• 2:46
  Both stood as tall as war charges, their faces hidden
• 2:49
  behind angular metal helmets. The swords in their hand pulsed
• 2:53
  with a yellow glow. Ranovir turned and ran,
• 2:57
  stumbling through the unyielding snow, hardly caring which
• 3:00
  direction she picked now, as long as it was far, far away
• 3:04
  from here. Behind her, the thundering
• 3:06
  footsteps were in pursuit. Far off between the trees,
• 3:11
  something glistened. An open space, blinding white,
• 3:14
  shining like a floor of diamond. She was almost there, with all
• 3:19
  the strength she had in her fuelled by terror and
• 3:22
  desperation. She ran Hamster Book Club, the
• 3:32
  Doctor Who Novel Review Podcast with Joe Ford, Luke Sims
• 3:36
  Jenkins, Andrew Batty and John Arnold.
• 3:53
  Ruby Red by Georgia Cook. Welcome back to the Hamster Book
• 4:02
  Club after an unusually long period of time.
• 4:06
  Only three weeks in reality, but we're usually one of these a
• 4:08
  week. I have returned with the Dream
• 4:12
  Team, plus a new addition I've got in in order, Luke Sims
• 4:18
  Jenkins. Hello, Luke.
• 4:19
  Hey, hello. How's it going?
• 4:22
  How early is it there? 5:39 AM.
• 4:26
  That I'm impressed at how excited you sound.
• 4:28
  And we've also got Mr. Andrew Batty.
• 4:31
  Hello, Andrew. Hello.
• 4:33
  You all right today? I'm good, Thanks.
• 4:35
  Yeah, it's not 539 here. What time is it here 20 to 9
• 4:40
  that's that's far more sociable. And joining us to make up this
• 4:44
  fabulous foursome where you have got Mr. John Arnold fresh from
• 4:49
  his trauma in the Stranger episode.
• 4:52
  Hello, John. Hello, it's good to be in the
• 4:55
  book orgy this time. I mean, I've, I've delivered out
• 5:00
  some assignments this time, haven't I?
• 5:02
  Like, there's actually been some serious homework to do for this
• 5:05
  episode. We've got quite a lot to get
• 5:07
  through today. I'll be honest with all of you,
• 5:09
  though, I have given us quite a substantial topic to talk about
• 5:13
  at the beginning and the end of this book.
• 5:15
  Because the book itself was so slight.
• 5:17
  I don't know what on earth we're going to talk about, but then
• 5:20
  let's give it a go. Andrew, can you please tell
• 5:23
  everybody what book we're here to talk about today?
• 5:26
  OK, we are here to talk about Ruby Red, which is one of the
• 5:31
  new 15th Doctor books came out earlier this year.
• 5:36
  And yeah, you asked us which ones we wanted to do.
• 5:40
  I think this was my pick of the two, and I chose it because it
• 5:43
  has Ruby's name in the title and I thought, let's do that one,
• 5:46
  it'll be all about Ruby. Did I choose The Doctor Trap for
• 5:51
  us to read? Yes.
• 5:54
  Then I shall consider this your revenge.
• 5:58
  And John, as the new newbie to this foursome, can you please
• 6:02
  then I'm just going to hand this over to you now, Please hit
• 6:05
  everybody and the listeners with our opening icebreaker question
• 6:09
  tonight. So this is one that Joe came up
• 6:12
  with. Joe, I was like, I actually have
• 6:13
  to do some thinking here. It's not like this or anything.
• 6:17
  It is what should the books be doing in conjunction with the
• 6:21
  new series? And since you are the newbie
• 6:25
  here, what is your answer? I think it's at the risk of
• 6:30
  getting into something we might be discussing later.
• 6:34
  I think it's what they they're aiming towards, what they should
• 6:36
  be doing with Ruby Red. I think the book should be
• 6:40
  aiming towards that young adult audience.
• 6:43
  So they should be looking for that, those young protagonists,
• 6:46
  that kind of fancy genre, because it's the biggest sound
• 6:50
  genre right there right now. So you go for that, you you look
• 6:54
  to tie in that audience that you're looking for with the TV
• 6:57
  show is reading these kinds of books.
• 6:59
  So that's what you need to tie in with the series.
• 7:02
  You don't need to make it for, you know, the likes of us who've
• 7:04
  been with it for years and will probably buy just about anything
• 7:08
  with Doctor Who on the front as we go for that new audience.
• 7:11
  Let it continue, make it keep going.
• 7:15
  I've recently read God Engine for We're all stories in the
• 7:19
  end, right? And that's exactly the sort of
• 7:21
  book that gets churned out when you're trying to please our
• 7:24
  geeks like us. But well, let's skip across to
• 7:31
  Luke then. Luke, what you do?
• 7:34
  Force the shadow. Here's here's what I do These
• 7:39
  giant sized hard covers. No, because I didn't see anyone
• 7:46
  who reads young adult books spending fucking $40 on a Doctor
• 7:51
  Who hardcover book. $40 is that how much you paid for this?
• 7:55
  I was like 36, but close enough. I'm rounding up God damn it.
• 7:59
  But and I I was like, well, what do you do?
• 8:04
  I mean, I saw like the perfect size for these books for the
• 8:09
  target size. They you can make great covers
• 8:13
  for them. You can make them smaller also.
• 8:16
  And it do something that maybe the telly show wouldn't have the
• 8:20
  budget for. That's just another thing as
• 8:22
  well. Maybe.
• 8:23
  Yeah, because if I feel like my my my first note for you is
• 8:27
  like, Oh yeah, this could have been made into ATV story.
• 8:29
  No problem. I didn't like a book.
• 8:33
  Are you suggesting that the new series could, you know, scrape
• 8:36
  together the budget to have a lake and a forest in it?
• 8:39
  Look, they don't need to go too broad or too deep, they can just
• 8:41
  pick one. There's a few of them in Wales.
• 8:44
  We could do that and. What would you do with them
• 8:48
  then? Come on, what if it's not this?
• 8:50
  If this is like your typical not what not to do, well then give
• 8:55
  me an example of your what to do apart from the size.
• 9:00
  All right, well, we've got Ruby red in the title.
• 9:04
  Do something more with it. Let's let's see some stuff more
• 9:07
  from her point of view, be for character up a little bit so we
• 9:10
  get to know her in a way that we couldn't do on the TV because
• 9:14
  it's a book. So something like that.
• 9:16
  Like I just need something a little more instead of just
• 9:23
  like, say, if the price was half the amount that this cost could
• 9:28
  kind of like what a target book would cost.
• 9:30
  My thoughts in this book would be maybe a little different, a
• 9:33
  little skewed. So you got to you got to make
• 9:36
  these, no matter what the content they choose large
• 9:41
  hardcovers, people like us, we're buying those.
• 9:44
  We're buying them because they're big, beautiful
• 9:46
  hardcovers with Doctor Who in them and they look awesome on
• 9:48
  the shelf. I don't know how much young
• 9:51
  people are reading these, but I'd say like Target book would
• 9:58
  be that kind of price as well. I can get them from like between
• 10:01
  15 and $25 depending on like, you know, how big it is and when
• 10:06
  it came out and stuff like that. I mean the newer ones, I don't
• 10:09
  mean like the, the really old ones.
• 10:10
  So what about the and are the the new targets about the same
• 10:15
  size like the ones for from a season 15?
• 10:18
  The. Space Babies Ones I've Got is
• 10:21
  like a pamphlet. It's like the old Underworld
• 10:23
  target. Make it fit in your your jacket,
• 10:28
  at a rack, whatever, you know, like you can take it anywhere,
• 10:32
  all that kind of stuff. I don't want to take the
• 10:34
  hardcover out anywhere because I don't want to get it damaged.
• 10:37
  Yeah and yeah or FY. I, I hate dust jackets as well.
• 10:40
  I'll I can't hate them. I'll just RIP them off straight
• 10:43
  away and read the book without them if I know.
• 10:45
  The picture on this is is gorgeous.
• 10:48
  Well, Andrew's the man who turned the six part 8th Doctor
• 10:52
  series into a television event on one of our earlier episodes,
• 10:56
  so I'd love to know what he would like to do with the new
• 10:59
  series adventures right now. Andrew.
• 11:03
  Well, I think, yeah, I kind of concur with a lot of what the
• 11:07
  what the other guys said. But yeah, I think going for that
• 11:12
  YA market is a really smart idea.
• 11:15
  But I don't think that this this particular book really hits that
• 11:20
  spot because it's like I, I feel like YA is actually a lot more
• 11:25
  sophisticated than this. Like YA books are usually a lot
• 11:28
  longer than this. Like the right, the writing
• 11:31
  style is definitely that kind of wheelhouse.
• 11:35
  But yeah, I think those sort of teen readers are actually like
• 11:39
  looking for something a bit more complicated than this, a bit
• 11:43
  lengthier and a bit kind of with more thematic kind of meat to
• 11:47
  it. So I think they just need to be
• 11:50
  more ambitious with these books. And I agree with Luke that, you
• 11:54
  know, using a character like Ruby, who's the age of the
• 11:59
  audience that you're targeting, maybe a little bit older would
• 12:02
  be a really smart move. I'd go for something like a sort
• 12:04
  of telling that season from her perspective or, you know, the,
• 12:09
  the this diary of, of, of Ruby Sunday, that kind of thing where
• 12:13
  she's struggling with those questions of her identity and
• 12:16
  her mother, which you could do really well in a book like this.
• 12:19
  And I feel like Ruby's the kind of character who would be
• 12:21
  writing a journal. It feels like it's kind of
• 12:24
  tailor made for that sort of story.
• 12:26
  Or if you couldn't do that because of restrictions due to
• 12:30
  storytelling from from Cardiff, taking that sort of approach
• 12:34
  with the supporting character and, you know, having the doctor
• 12:38
  and Ruby intersect with a kind of team character and but
• 12:42
  playing playing out over a longer, longer narrative.
• 12:47
  And I was thinking about, you know, the the cap full of Ruby's
• 12:50
  friends in that in the Ruby Rd. episode, who they've never they
• 12:55
  haven't done anything else with on TV.
• 12:57
  And there's like her trans friend who she's in the band
• 13:00
  when it's like give us a novel from her perspective.
• 13:03
  That's, you know, her, her meeting Ruby and the Doctor
• 13:07
  going on some sort of adventure or telling us her, her story and
• 13:11
  her journey. So I just feel like, you know,
• 13:13
  you just need something a bit immediate for these stories in
• 13:15
  this audience. Jack Rayner did that with Rose,
• 13:18
  didn't she? And Winner Takes All, which was
• 13:20
  like one of the very early new series adventures.
• 13:22
  And we met Rose's mates and it was a very simple, it was a very
• 13:25
  childish book, funny, but very childish.
• 13:28
  But exactly what you just said there, you had all that added
• 13:31
  interest of, you know, going back to where Rose lives,
• 13:35
  grounding her even more and meeting people in her life.
• 13:38
  Yeah, well, we'll get on for the book, but there's none of that
• 13:41
  in here. And also, these aren't in the YA
• 13:43
  section. These are in the adult science
• 13:46
  fiction section. They're £15, but they're only
• 13:48
  200 pages. And it just feels like, you
• 13:51
  know, what audience are these aimed at?
• 13:53
  They're not in the right section.
• 13:55
  They're not at the right price point.
• 13:56
  They should be paperbacks. But also I just want I know I've
• 14:01
  got on on a little bit also like stop doing the targets as
• 14:05
  targets. Stop aiming them at a retro
• 14:09
  audience. Stop making them look like a
• 14:11
  retro niche pastiche product. Those targets should look like
• 14:15
  this. They should have what they did
• 14:18
  with the with the church on Ruby Rd. the first one.
• 14:21
  And I was like, oh, great, they're taking a new approach
• 14:22
  for this. The novelisations, they're tying
• 14:24
  them in these books. They're all going to look the
• 14:26
  same. They're going to have them on
• 14:27
  the shelf. There's not going to be that
• 14:29
  distinction of sort of like nerdy fan thing versus more
• 14:32
  mainstream thing. Great.
• 14:34
  And then no. Oh, the second batch were all as
• 14:37
  targets and I just think it's it's the wrong approach.
• 14:40
  They are rulers, targets, but they're not doing that sort of
• 14:42
  Achilleos art anymore, are they? They've done no.
• 14:45
  No, I really, I do really like those covers.
• 14:47
  I think they're beautiful, but they're kind of out of kilter
• 14:51
  with the marketplace. Because what they do with what
• 14:56
  they do with the authors is good.
• 14:58
  It it's, you know, they gain other people in.
• 15:00
  They're getting up and coming science fiction authors to come
• 15:02
  and do these things. So they're kind of halfway there
• 15:06
  then, but they're not quite there.
• 15:09
  You know, the telling point will be how often these come out.
• 15:12
  What did it used to be with the new series?
• 15:13
  Adventures at the start? Three sets a year, wasn't it?
• 15:16
  It was quite a lot. Was it 3 or 4?
• 15:18
  Was it? Yeah, there was quite.
• 15:20
  Quite a lot coming out. Recently and selling by the
• 15:23
  bucket loads. So I suppose depending on the
• 15:25
  sales of these will be what we're going to get three per
• 15:28
  season. Yeah.
• 15:30
  Yeah, it feels like that YA market has really exploded in
• 15:33
  recent years, which wasn't really a thing back in like
• 15:36
  2005. Those those books at that time
• 15:39
  were very much sort of like those Spider Wick or Series of
• 15:43
  Unfortunate Events style books. Whereas now it's like all that
• 15:48
  exciting stuff in in young people's publishing is the YA
• 15:51
  market and they should be really engaging with that, which I feel
• 15:55
  like this isn't. It's like you said.
• 15:57
  Do you remember that breeze block of a book Harry Potter and
• 16:00
  the Deathly Hallows Part 2? I do because I worked in a book
• 16:03
  distributors at. The time.
• 16:05
  Hacked millions of the bloody things away.
• 16:08
  Kids can handle big books now. As.
• 16:11
  Well, you can sustain their interest.
• 16:14
  Like, my suggestion for the new series of adventures books now
• 16:18
  would be to, if you're going to bring out three, have a
• 16:22
  sustained narrative with three. Yeah, link them together, tell
• 16:27
  one massive story. So there's a reward from going
• 16:29
  from the first to the second to the third now.
• 16:32
  I mean, you know how well Arcs have worked in previous
• 16:36
  iterations of Doctor Who books for better.
• 16:38
  Colin Brake writes any of these, but it's like.
• 16:42
  I would never normally. Say this, but take the Big
• 16:44
  Finish model when they were doing the the three releases
• 16:47
  coming out, because they would often do it around a theme or an
• 16:50
  idea or a location or something like that.
• 16:54
  And then you you've got it's sort of a 200 page book.
• 16:56
  You've got a 600 page story that has just got some substance to
• 17:02
  it. Like we'll get onto Ruby red.
• 17:05
  But it was so if I sneeze, this thing would fly down the road
• 17:09
  there. It was so, so sort of thin on
• 17:11
  incident. I think they've kind of done
• 17:13
  arcs recently, and they could, but it's been multimedia arcs.
• 17:17
  And who's got the time or money to actually pursue all of those?
• 17:20
  You know, those things are a terrible, they're great for
• 17:24
  anyone who lives in the UK, But it's like, yeah, I can get get
• 17:28
  the books. Yeah, sure, I could get those.
• 17:30
  The audios. That's no trouble at all.
• 17:32
  Doctor Who Magazine issue or two there.
• 17:34
  Yeah. Great.
• 17:34
  Now come and say our interactive exhibit.
• 17:36
  Where is it? Are you bringing it down here?
• 17:39
  No. Well, I can't get the full
• 17:42
  fucking thing then. What is the collective cost of
• 17:46
  all three of these for you if you had to get all of them?
• 17:50
  It'd be close to $100. Yeah, that's just absurd for
• 17:53
  three books, isn't it? So my last question is going to
• 17:56
  be to all of you then before we move on to the book is what do
• 17:59
  you think is a reasonable price for these books for for the
• 18:02
  market that they are aiming for Andrew?
• 18:06
  I think sort of eight, 99999 still under that temp.
• 18:10
  I mean books have gone up in price kind of across across the
• 18:13
  board since, you know, the the kind of 699 days of when these
• 18:19
  were originally coming out. So yeah, I think that's
• 18:22
  reasonable, but not taking the piss, like especially,
• 18:27
  especially if these are meant to be for young people.
• 18:29
  John. Yeah, I think it's similar to
• 18:33
  the targets get get them in that payback format or even if you
• 18:37
  want that slightly bigger hard or small hardback format that
• 18:40
  the original books were out in. So they look as if they're a
• 18:43
  little more special maybe because I think part of the idea
• 18:46
  is these books are bigger. They've got bigger, you know,
• 18:49
  bigger, more colourful covers. They look as if they've had more
• 18:53
  money spent on them than the Target covers, which are nice.
• 18:56
  But you know, that these kind of marketers almost a luxury thing,
• 19:00
  I think. But it's it's 200 pages.
• 19:03
  It's not. It's shorter than the Rogue
• 19:04
  Target now, for instance. So, yeah.
• 19:08
  So somewhere somewhere between say 799 and 999 would be ideal.
• 19:14
  I got so confused with those new series targets because Planet of
• 19:17
  the Huge is like 1099 for some reason.
• 19:20
  Some of them are 899. I'm like, what is the pricing
• 19:24
  structure for these? Books and they're so flimsy,
• 19:26
  those target ones like I was, I picked up one of the new ones
• 19:28
  the other day and the paper, like you can tell it's going to
• 19:31
  go yellow in like a year and go brickle.
• 19:35
  They're just so cheaply made now.
• 19:37
  Why is that that one planet OU D 1099?
• 19:41
  Was Keith Temple just that expensive?
• 19:44
  Luke coming in? What's your acceptable price
• 19:47
  range with the conversion? Well, there's two books I paid
• 19:51
  for that are fairly new that we're almost $15 cheaper than
• 19:54
  that. One was even a hardcover.
• 19:56
  I'm talking about Imaginary Friends and In Wonderland.
• 20:02
  Both relatively new, both not huge.
• 20:06
  Like it's a bigger paperback in Wonderland, but.
• 20:09
  It feels like it feels manageable.
• 20:12
  I actually also like those covers a little little more than
• 20:15
  the one we got on for Ruby Red. But like, I don't know, 20 bucks
• 20:21
  or give or take it, but a couple bucks either way.
• 20:24
  That seems reasonable when you're getting closer to 30
• 20:27
  dollars, $34, something like that.
• 20:31
  Then I mean, I can go to the movies, I can get like 3
• 20:35
  different streaming services like it.
• 20:37
  I can. I can get my bang for my buck in
• 20:41
  like other places and stuff and that's kind of what I want.
• 20:45
  Tell me you can Netflix, Paramount Plus and Disney Plus
• 20:50
  for the price of this book. Well, maybe for a month, but you
• 20:54
  know, and I have to get the ad versions, of course, like,
• 20:57
  because they want me to watch ads and pay them for the
• 20:59
  privilege. But you know, that's that's
• 21:00
  fine. We're really getting the grumpy
• 21:03
  version today. You don't know this John, but
• 21:09
  he's normally very positive on these episodes.
• 21:11
  But I get the. Feeling a rant is coming?
• 21:14
  Well, look, OK, let's turn our attention to the book in hand
• 21:18
  then that you all have in hand and I don't because it's
• 21:20
  downstairs. John, sorry.
• 21:23
  I'm so sorry to put you to work like this.
• 21:25
  That's the. 1st episode. With us.
• 21:27
  But will you either give us a potted synopsis of what on earth
• 21:31
  this book is about, or if you fancy, you can just read the
• 21:34
  blurb? It's entirely up.
• 21:35
  To you. OK, you've got a better reader
• 21:39
  than I. I am on this.
• 21:41
  OK. April 1242 The doctor Ruby
• 21:45
  answered distress calls sent from medieval Russia.
• 21:48
  The signal sender, Ranovir, an alien girl forced to take part
• 21:52
  in a barbaric conflict between the armies of Estonia and
• 21:55
  Novgorod on the frozen surface of Lake Pipers.
• 21:59
  I think it's Pipers. I'm not 100%.
• 22:01
  You did. You did really well there.
• 22:02
  Yeah. No, it's all good.
• 22:05
  Ranovir wants to escape, but a distress call has summoned her
• 22:07
  warmongering sisters, intent on preserving family traditions,
• 22:11
  whatever the cost. And as human battle begins, the
• 22:15
  Doctor and Ruby must face a more devastating threat, a monstrous
• 22:20
  entity with plans of conquest growing stronger beneath the icy
• 22:25
  lake. I don't think we do have a
• 22:27
  better reader, you know? That was fabulous.
• 22:29
  Do you? Know what?
• 22:30
  I don't think you actually need to read the book.
• 22:32
  It's all there, the whole. Yeah, I didn't read the blurb
• 22:36
  before we started. I thought there's no point
• 22:38
  because I'm doing the book club for it anyway.
• 22:40
  I'm reading it. There's there's no way around.
• 22:43
  I'm reading this book. So I didn't read the blurb.
• 22:45
  If I don't read the blurb first, it might have annoyed me.
• 22:48
  Even more, even though I did tear the cover off and discard
• 22:50
  it, I, I did think like for once, I judged the book on its
• 22:54
  cover and I was like, my God, shoot, Cat was a beautiful man.
• 22:57
  That is a beautiful cover. This is going to be an
• 23:00
  incredible read. And you know, I know some of
• 23:02
  Jordan Cook's work from Big Finish, so I know she can
• 23:04
  deliver the goods. Let's do a quick round Robin
• 23:07
  then of our initial force before we go into characters and plots
• 23:11
  and blah, blah, blah. And let's randomly just choose
• 23:14
  Luke. I didn't like it.
• 23:17
  I know you. Didn't.
• 23:22
  Now why is? It all right, you set up
• 23:26
  something that I'm like Oh my God, you'd never do that on the
• 23:29
  TV but OK, this is going to be really cool the battle on the
• 23:35
  ice between Estonia and Novgorod.
• 23:38
  Oh my God, And then you got Ruby and the Doctor may be trying to
• 23:41
  defuse things, help people or run to the freaking TARDIS as
• 23:46
  but it's on the ice. So like all this crazy shit's
• 23:49
  happening. I'm like, Oh my God, this is
• 23:50
  going to be awesome. And the books over two days
• 23:53
  before the war even happened. So I'm like, are you serious?
• 23:56
  Madness, isn't it? Why would you build that up and
• 23:59
  not even have it in your book? Because they wanted to wrap copy
• 24:05
  of the episode Thin Ice instead, that's why.
• 24:08
  I was. Just like this, it was right
• 24:12
  there. So sort of not for you is how we
• 24:15
  can sum up that. Yes, sorry, yes.
• 24:20
  John, what did you think? I think we've got some varied
• 24:23
  opinions here. I I think my thoughts of it were
• 24:27
  what's it actually for? You know, why, why is the
• 24:31
  booking here? It's, it's, you know, you can
• 24:33
  ask yourself for when you read any book.
• 24:36
  And I'm just going, yeah, it's fine.
• 24:39
  It's going along. It's doing really, not really
• 24:43
  decent dog two things, you know, the cover that the kind the
• 24:45
  walls with red eyes. That's a cracking image.
• 24:48
  You know, it's easy for the reader, spooky.
• 24:50
  They're in the imagination. I think in certain ways in
• 24:53
  imagery and stuff. I think Georgia does deliver the
• 24:56
  goods on this front. I agree with that.
• 24:59
  But then I'll go and it's, it's a very traditional book.
• 25:03
  It's, it's, it's like you can see, you know, we've all read
• 25:07
  God knows how much doctor and I'll talk.
• 25:08
  We watch God knows how much doctor in our time and it's a
• 25:12
  very generic plot. So you know, the interesting
• 25:16
  thing comes in the imagery and the setting, but the story it
• 25:22
  it's not quite there for me. It's gesturing towards the young
• 25:26
  adult thing with that, the young ran over here, but it's not
• 25:32
  quite got the meat there. True I.
• 25:39
  I think the main thing is, is sort of, I wanted more from it.
• 25:43
  I wanted it to be more ambitious and I think it was very, it was
• 25:49
  a sort of a very competent Doctor Who story.
• 25:51
  It kind of fitted together the bits of a Doctor Who plot.
• 25:55
  And actually the prose is a very, very good.
• 25:59
  I think she writes concisely, but creates imagery really well
• 26:06
  and for, you know, for a hundred 200 page book, like writing
• 26:09
  concisely and and doing that that stuff economically, I think
• 26:14
  it's very impressive from that point of view.
• 26:16
  But the plot and the characters were a bit lacking and just
• 26:20
  yeah, that lack of scale to it. It felt very constrained in a
• 26:25
  way that it didn't need to be because it was a book like you
• 26:28
  can do anything. And I think sometimes there's
• 26:30
  that you want it to feel like a Doctor Who story.
• 26:34
  There's like a very fine balance between like making it feel like
• 26:38
  a Doctor Who story and doing those things that the TV show
• 26:41
  couldn't do. Because if you do too much of
• 26:43
  what the TV show couldn't do, it then doesn't feel like a Doctor
• 26:46
  Who story. So you've got to kind of pay it,
• 26:48
  play it a little bit safe, but I think it plays it too safe.
• 26:51
  And we could have had more of that.
• 26:53
  Like Luke was saying the battle on the ice, we could have more
• 26:56
  of like going into the city meeting.
• 26:58
  But the Prince in this story, he's on one page.
• 27:02
  And I was waiting for that bit of like, they're going going to
• 27:04
  go into the court of the king. We're going to get all this
• 27:07
  historical detail and meet more characters.
• 27:09
  There's literally like 4 characters in the whole book.
• 27:12
  And it's like we could have more, we could have more.
• 27:15
  I just want more. I completely agree with you
• 27:20
  about the pros. I thought there was real
• 27:22
  artistry in the pros, and I've got a couple of pros actually
• 27:25
  because I don't just want to rat on this, but I do think it was
• 27:28
  stylishly written, but it was style hanging on kind of
• 27:33
  nothing. I was really excited.
• 27:36
  I tore through the 1st 30 pages and I was like, Oh my God, what
• 27:39
  a great setting, a battle on the ice.
• 27:41
  This is going to be so exciting. And that was the last point.
• 27:44
  I was surprised. And for the rest of the book, I
• 27:47
  was just sort of going, OK, at some point there's going to be a
• 27:50
  reversal or A twist or something that isn't just this creature
• 27:54
  under the ice and these this girl and her sisters.
• 27:58
  And that is exactly what it was until they all went under the
• 28:02
  water and then sorted out the creature at the end I was like.
• 28:05
  I don't understand the point of this, I don't understand the
• 28:08
  point of this plot and I think my biggest sticking point were
• 28:11
  the characters because I thought the doctor Ruby was so thin in
• 28:17
  this and there was a barely anything to make this shooty GAT
• 28:21
  whilst Dr. apart from a few babes and other lines that
• 28:25
  annoyed Andrew but I'm sure he'll talk.
• 28:27
  About that later. And, and Ruby was just a total
• 28:32
  blank slate in this. And I thought, you've got Ruby
• 28:35
  and you got this girl. That could be a great
• 28:39
  relationship. That could be Gwyneth and Rose,
• 28:41
  you know, that could be, you know, something really
• 28:43
  interesting with a lot of them, they don't really do anything
• 28:46
  with it because all of a sudden we're running around the camp
• 28:49
  and then we're running over the ice and then we're diving under
• 28:51
  the sea, and then everyone's taken over.
• 28:53
  So nobody's themselves. I mean, possession, please.
• 28:56
  Have we ever done that in Doctor Who before?
• 29:00
  Yeah. So it's it's kind of running on
• 29:03
  empty throughout. And yet I kept going.
• 29:07
  My God, that's a lovely bit of rice in.
• 29:09
  That's a really. And I thought to myself, was she
• 29:12
  handed this story to write? Did they say, did they say to
• 29:16
  her, this is a story we want don't go too crazy.
• 29:20
  And she sort of poured all of her love into the prose because
• 29:24
  I felt that's where really all the skill was here.
• 29:28
  Yeah, those there was the bits where she describes the
• 29:31
  possession happening. There's that character called on
• 29:34
  film who's one of the few other characters in it where he kind
• 29:37
  of he's he's out on guard duty and he feels like this sort of
• 29:40
  creeping cold at the back of his neck.
• 29:43
  And it's sort of just the the prose where she describes that
• 29:45
  bit and it's all from his perspective of that something
• 29:49
  slowly taking him over. It was so effective.
• 29:51
  And I was like, we just need more.
• 29:54
  We just need more of this and more incident and yeah, just
• 29:59
  take that skill and kind of build a better story.
• 30:03
  There's clearly skill here, isn't there?
• 30:05
  Definitely. There's a she's a really
• 30:07
  promising author and this is her first book, so I don't want to
• 30:09
  just be like, you know, this is terrible.
• 30:12
  It's not. There's a lot of promise in this
• 30:13
  book and I'd I'd be really excited to see what she does
• 30:16
  next with more confidence and more ambition and.
• 30:20
  The other thing is, as Jim said, she's written for Big Finish,
• 30:23
  but I think she may be still kind of half and that might take
• 30:26
  where she's writing a little bit like it's for audio because it
• 30:29
  can be tough to switch between your media.
• 30:32
  And that kind of explained to me why the doctor and Ruby were,
• 30:36
  they weren't quite generic, but it felt like, you know, there
• 30:39
  was room for a performer to do something with them.
• 30:41
  And that's what I was feeling with the characters all the way
• 30:43
  through that it's, you know, there's a role here for an
• 30:46
  actor. So maybe was it something she
• 30:49
  pitched a big finish or she got in mind the big finish on the
• 30:52
  back burner And then, you know, when an off duty right novel
• 30:56
  came up, she had the pitch and they accepted it.
• 30:59
  But I can't see why you'd you know why you commissioned this
• 31:02
  because the settings imagine, say the imagery is good, the
• 31:04
  prose is good. And you know, I would like to
• 31:09
  see another book from her because I think, you know, she's
• 31:13
  got our first book out the way. The nerves will be gone.
• 31:15
  Any first time nerves because I think she there's something
• 31:19
  really, really good, a really good Doctor Who story here,
• 31:21
  particularly if they let her off the leash a little.
• 31:23
  But we've all read like a ton of Doctor Who fiction, right?
• 31:28
  Think of those new adventures and EDA's from first time
• 31:31
  writers. It's the prose where you can
• 31:34
  usually see the nerves. And yet that's not here at all,
• 31:38
  which is really, really strange. Yeah, what there was for the
• 31:41
  first time was was made. I think with the ending I'm
• 31:44
  going. Was she bumping up against the
• 31:46
  word count here? Yeah, it's somewhere something
• 31:49
  like the highest signs. Where you going really quick?
• 31:51
  Yeah, yeah. Run to the word count, finish.
• 31:53
  Done. So it it it ends rather than
• 31:57
  concluding, if that makes any sense.
• 31:59
  You know, the trouble is, is if she's writing dialogue, waiting
• 32:04
  for a performer. Well, unfortunately in this
• 32:06
  situation, the performer is the four of us reading the book.
• 32:09
  And I don't know how your acting is, but mine's terrible.
• 32:12
  So I. Wouldn't bring any character to
• 32:13
  it at all. Well actually that's a good
• 32:16
  segue into talking about the characters of this book.
• 32:19
  So what's the main character called?
• 32:21
  Ranavir. Is that her name?
• 32:23
  Ranavir. And and her sisters, whose names
• 32:26
  I have completely forgotten. Someone help me out?
• 32:29
  They were completely impronounceable.
• 32:31
  I kept on really stumbling over the city, you know?
• 32:35
  They weren't doing that no adventure thing of of names you
• 32:38
  just cannot say. Aloud.
• 32:39
  There's nice sister and there's mean sister.
• 32:42
  Celisemir is it or Celisemir And Helgiri is one of them.
• 32:48
  So, Luke, I'm going to throw this to you first.
• 32:50
  It's the bread, Helgiriene. What did you think of this
• 32:52
  dysfunctional family? I just want to echo what you got
• 32:57
  because I've been the grumpiest. I just want to say I have
• 33:00
  mentioned this in the chat as well.
• 33:01
  The writing is really good. That's why I was probably even
• 33:04
  more excited for that battle at the end.
• 33:07
  Like man, if she's good at this this good at setting the scene,
• 33:10
  the rest is going to be amazing. Well, just to piggyback of what
• 33:17
  John said about this being an audio the six main characters,
• 33:21
  the rest could have been played by members of the cast.
• 33:25
  Not insult, that's how many characters there are.
• 33:27
  There's the Jenna Tricks, the two sisters, Renavir, the
• 33:32
  Doctor, Ruby, and. On film.
• 33:35
  Well, you know, members of the cast, you know, the person doing
• 33:40
  the Jenna tricks could probably have done done that.
• 33:43
  I just listen. It's not enough characters for a
• 33:47
  novel. None of the characters are from
• 33:49
  the time period in which the book set.
• 33:52
  I think that's a big one for me. If we just swapped one of the
• 33:56
  characters out, if we're going to keep the car small, that's
• 33:59
  fine. Easy to keep track of.
• 34:00
  That's great. I would have swapped one of them
• 34:03
  and made it on from the main character.
• 34:05
  Or this being Doctor Who and the Doctor being the Doctor, the
• 34:08
  bloody Prince, I think this handsome Doctor Mann would be
• 34:14
  able to ingratiate himself with the Prince.
• 34:16
  No problem. Let's see what happens there.
• 34:18
  Let's and that would have also allowed us to get more on the
• 34:21
  setting in the year from someone who actually lives in the time
• 34:26
  period rather than someone who's just visiting.
• 34:29
  So that's that's probably one of the changes that make.
• 34:32
  And I guess with the character of Renevir.
• 34:34
  No, I didn't read the blurb, but as soon as I kind of got the
• 34:37
  gist of, oh, she doesn't want to be a warrior, but her sisters
• 34:41
  wanted to be one. OK, her sisters are going to be
• 34:44
  like, you should be a warrior. Oh, but we see you've got other
• 34:47
  skills, different ways to fight. Oh, we respect you now.
• 34:50
  And I'm like you're going to do. Very deep.
• 34:54
  And they did that and yeah. So not impressing.
• 35:01
  No, sorry, that was long winded again, no, that's.
• 35:03
  Fine, you could be as long winded as you like.
• 35:07
  John, what did you think of the characters?
• 35:09
  In this book. Yeah, but again, I think I was
• 35:13
  covering it when I said about the audio stuff.
• 35:15
  It is that they're they're almost waiting to be filled and
• 35:19
  and Luke is absolutely right. I think, you know, somewhere the
• 35:22
  closest set I can think of something this is Bunker
• 35:25
  Soldiers and that's got characters on time.
• 35:27
  That puts you right in the time. It's much more evocative.
• 35:32
  And it shows you the battle as well.
• 35:34
  Yes, exactly that it, it gives you a reason to be there.
• 35:37
  This it's it's kind of like this, that setting is just a
• 35:41
  backdrop. And yeah, yeah.
• 35:46
  And I mean, the problem for me is, again, we touched it, the
• 35:50
  character journeys, but absolutely no surprise in there
• 35:53
  whatsoever. Yeah, we know.
• 35:55
  We know the Doctor Ruby, you're going to basically end up the
• 35:57
  same as they were at the end of the book because you can't
• 35:59
  change the characters in a book. AIDS against BBC charter beat
• 36:03
  never going to happen because Russell G Davies is going to Nix
• 36:05
  that. But the guest characters, you
• 36:09
  know where it's going from the start.
• 36:11
  So I couldn't quite get interested in them because you
• 36:16
  know exactly what's going to happen.
• 36:18
  It's it's that skill. It's a family.
• 36:22
  Is the family going to reconcile?
• 36:23
  Of course it is. It's a Doctor Who story.
• 36:27
  Aimed at kids. Aimed at kids, yeah.
• 36:29
  Well, I can't think. It's never going to go one or
• 36:30
  two ways. She's either going to say, all
• 36:32
  right, I'll be a warrior, or, oh, no, I'd rather not, thank
• 36:35
  you very much. I want to pursue a different
• 36:37
  career. Thank you.
• 36:39
  That's what we got. Andrew Ranovir.
• 36:43
  I agree with everything that Luke and John have just said.
• 36:48
  And I was kind. I was hoping there was going to
• 36:49
  be some sort of twist in that. I was hoping that Ranavir was
• 36:52
  going to be a bad heat. There was going to be some sort
• 36:55
  of twist when it was a trap. She wasn't just this naive
• 36:59
  runaway. She was trying to lure the
• 37:00
  doctor and Ruby in or something like that.
• 37:02
  But no, it goes. It goes where you expect it's
• 37:05
  going to go. And I found I did find the kind
• 37:08
  of you've got to stay and you've got to work this out with your
• 37:11
  family sort of storyline. Just a bit.
• 37:16
  Like why, Why does she have to do that?
• 37:18
  There's a bit where the doctor says running away is just a
• 37:21
  plaster on the real problem, not the cure.
• 37:23
  It's like, why? Like, why can't she run away if
• 37:26
  she doesn't want to be with her family?
• 37:27
  She doesn't want to be a warrior.
• 37:29
  Help her like. That's what he's in his.
• 37:31
  Entire life doing running away from.
• 37:33
  Things, yeah, exactly like, and then show up and try and like
• 37:37
  firing guns at her. It's like get her out of this
• 37:40
  toxic family, jump in the TARDIS, take her to another
• 37:43
  planet where she can be a technician there, done.
• 37:45
  Like why does she have to reconcile with these sisters who
• 37:48
  want her to be something that she's not?
• 37:50
  I mean, you know, I won't go into my family history, but I'm
• 37:54
  entirely with you there. Yes.
• 37:57
  Did you not? Find as well they were like no
• 37:59
  you will be a warrior you know we'll.
• 38:01
  Take you back to the mother, ashamed and all this.
• 38:04
  The mother, I thought much made that up.
• 38:07
  And then at the end I just had a total reversal of like, oh,
• 38:09
  right. You know, that's don't worry
• 38:11
  about it. It's fine.
• 38:13
  Yeah. Like, well, why were you so
• 38:14
  fucking insistent for the last 150 pages that she'd be a
• 38:17
  warrior? And I don't really get like,
• 38:20
  what? So it's like, are they like sort
• 38:22
  of Valkyrie warriors? Is that the idea?
• 38:24
  Yeah. Yeah, I've seen some like give
• 38:27
  me a name like Helgadate is kind of a nod to that Norse
• 38:30
  extraction that's around that area.
• 38:32
  Yes, and big holes coming at the Reds and things.
• 38:35
  That's it. The the old time meddler kind of
• 38:37
  helmet. I'm.
• 38:40
  Too scared to ask you all about the plot now.
• 38:42
  I mean, we have sort of delicately touched upon it, but
• 38:45
  OK. Was there any part of the plot
• 38:48
  that pleased you? Maybe that's a nicer way of
• 38:52
  approaching it. Because I will say, and I'm
• 38:55
  going to read the line because I think it's fabulous.
• 38:58
  The weight of so many bodies at once was too much for the
• 39:01
  already weakened ice. The cracks made over the last
• 39:04
  few days grew wider. They sharpened into deep ravines
• 39:08
  and spread like icy black veins, cutting entire landscapes into
• 39:12
  floating islands. Now, when they went under the
• 39:15
  water, for a second I was like, I was like, OK, that's a good
• 39:20
  cliffhanger. Sorry, Chapter 8.
• 39:23
  That's what you say. So that so that was probably my
• 39:26
  favorite part of the whole book was when when they finally went
• 39:28
  underwater. But when I, you know, going
• 39:32
  underwater, that's hardly revolutionary.
• 39:34
  So over to you. I suppose I, I did like, I liked
• 39:45
  the bit I've already spoken about, like the sort of
• 39:47
  possession aspect, because I think the way that she wrote
• 39:49
  that was really good. And we get the kind of possessed
• 39:53
  soldiers and the mystery of what's going on with them and
• 39:56
  also all the animals. I thought there would be more of
• 39:59
  that and more of this kind of cross species, this Ruby red
• 40:04
  taking over people. But again, it was quite slight.
• 40:08
  You maybe get like a few wolves looking at them through the
• 40:10
  forest, but you don't really get much of.
• 40:14
  Much of that, I liked the bit where they started interacting
• 40:18
  with the history when they went into the camp and they met the
• 40:21
  Prince and the doctor was having to sort of negotiate his way to
• 40:25
  try and get to see the possessed men and, you know, get in
• 40:30
  inveigle himself into the camp and to see these these bodies
• 40:34
  and then meet the Prince. So once we got to that point, I
• 40:36
  was OK, this is it. This is where the history is
• 40:38
  going to start opening up and maybe the characters are going
• 40:41
  to get separated and into the different factions.
• 40:45
  But no, that didn't really happen either.
• 40:49
  And then, you know, as Luke said, we were, I felt like we
• 40:51
  were building up to this battle. There was so much tension around
• 40:54
  this battle coming and what it meant for Ranvir to be drawn
• 40:58
  into this battle she doesn't want to be part of.
• 41:00
  And then they leave before the battle starts.
• 41:04
  So yeah. Though again, just like lot,
• 41:07
  lots of promise in the plot. And maybe it is that thing of
• 41:10
  the 200 page counts that they couldn't go and explore and the
• 41:14
  story needed to be quite pared back in order to hit this page,
• 41:18
  to fit this page count. But yeah, and I don't, I feel
• 41:23
  like some of the older Nsas were longer than this.
• 41:28
  I feel like they were more. Yeah.
• 41:30
  Like the Doctor that was. So I'm not really sure why
• 41:35
  they've been contracted like this, because those were aimed
• 41:39
  at a younger audience than I think this is, but I've read
• 41:41
  like. They were sick building the
• 41:43
  pirate loop and a few others recently that are way more
• 41:46
  sophisticated than this in the themes that they're exploring
• 41:49
  and the characterisation they're delivering.
• 41:51
  And although, and that said, actually the last one we read,
• 41:54
  not the last one, but recently we read Imaginary Friends, which
• 41:57
  is shorter than this, but packs in much more of a narrative arc
• 42:02
  and goes to so many more places emotionally and kind of
• 42:06
  literally. So yeah, that was a very
• 42:10
  rambling approach to what the parts of the plot that I enjoyed
• 42:14
  by telling you about parts of the plot that I didn't.
• 42:18
  Well, come on, Luke, if you didn't like this, was there any
• 42:21
  moment in this book where you raised an eyebrow?
• 42:26
  Millie Gibson in the freezing cold water ice.
• 42:28
  Yeah, no, this. Is Luke's revenge on us now,
• 42:34
  Andrew? Now I I like the Doctor having
• 42:41
  the telepathic communication with the Genetrix.
• 42:44
  I like the the visuals under the eyes are quite wonderfully
• 42:47
  written and quite terrifying as well.
• 42:51
  Or or mentions of like the possession interesting as well.
• 42:55
  I would have done some weird shit with that possession.
• 42:57
  I would have had a possessed horse riding a man.
• 43:01
  Oh, nice, or you don't know what you've just said there, do you?
• 43:08
  All right, I I know how that sounds or I'd have like like on
• 43:12
  top of this red eyed horsey is. We do not recommend bestiality
• 43:19
  on this podcast, OK? It's 6:00 in the morning.
• 43:24
  I'm sorry. To be fair, that would have
• 43:27
  raised an eyebrow. Oh dear.
• 43:32
  John, please salvage the. Situation.
• 43:36
  Yeah, I'd like the idea. I really like the idea of the
• 43:40
  genetrics because you could, but I don't think George Hammy has
• 43:46
  experienced the probe to quite expand it as you need to as you
• 43:50
  because it's a great horror concept.
• 43:55
  I think the I love all the set. I'd love the setter.
• 43:59
  I'd love the setter. I love almost everything in the
• 44:01
  book is set up to do. It's just the way it happens is
• 44:05
  just not it's you mentioned that going in the ice.
• 44:09
  If it was ATV store, you know Russell tears would have gone
• 44:13
  right. There's a metaphor here that go
• 44:14
  into the water. You know, it's it's the old
• 44:16
  thing. They're cladding themselves.
• 44:17
  They're changing themselves. This is going to be the
• 44:18
  experience that changed their life.
• 44:20
  You know what? It'll be John, it'll be Cursor.
• 44:23
  Frederick, I always love you. Always love you.
• 44:27
  Come up with like Sophie Aldred. Yeah.
• 44:29
  So you're right. Oh.
• 44:31
  No, you said that, not me. I might listen to a few
• 44:35
  hamstraps, I know what you mean. It's ghastly.
• 44:38
  I'm sorry. Please continue.
• 44:39
  That's all right. We've got something lined up, so
• 44:41
  we'll talk about it then. But yeah, it's, but it's just
• 44:51
  everything's there is a frustrating thing.
• 44:53
  I'd like the setup, but there's just nothing interesting to it.
• 45:00
  It's just this is everything, every idea you want there,
• 45:04
  you're going. The possession is interesting,
• 45:07
  the settings interesting. And it's just, it's just almost
• 45:11
  like a backdrop. It's like a sort of painted
• 45:13
  backdrops used to have in the 60s.
• 45:15
  It's that kind of thing. It's almost like they're acting
• 45:17
  in front of a picture in a stage, cursing.
• 45:21
  But that, yeah, it's just that plot.
• 45:23
  It's there, right What you said about all the all the plot
• 45:26
  elements. I was like I was waiting for the
• 45:28
  the sort of the twist. Of it.
• 45:30
  Because it's all such familiar tropes.
• 45:32
  I was like, OK, so the possession.
• 45:34
  So what's going to be different about it?
• 45:35
  Oh, nothing. Something beneath the grounds
• 45:38
  that's menacing. Doctor Who has done that a
• 45:40
  million times. What's new about it?
• 45:42
  Nothing, you know, Oh my God, a massive battle in history,
• 45:46
  though, that didn't even happen. Like we didn't even see it.
• 45:48
  That was just A and that wouldn't be so annoying if they
• 45:52
  didn't mention it in every chapter.
• 45:54
  The battles come in, the battles come in.
• 45:56
  I was like, yes, the battles come in.
• 45:58
  And then when they went off at the end, I was like, what?
• 46:02
  It goes from, almost goes from A to B, but it never quite reaches
• 46:05
  B Are we going to get to the fireworks factory?
• 46:09
  The old, Yeah. I mean, there's two parts of the
• 46:14
  climax of the book I'd like to discuss with you both.
• 46:16
  Both. Sorry.
• 46:17
  There's three of you there. All three of you.
• 46:18
  Oh, God, I'll start that again. No, I won't.
• 46:21
  And that is, one is the doctor very casually wiping away the
• 46:27
  fact that a few 100 people are about to be murdered.
• 46:30
  I don't know, 1000 people. Sorry.
• 46:32
  He goes, oh, in the grand scheme of history, nothing happens here
• 46:36
  at all. Like he seems to have forgotten
• 46:38
  that whole little people person he went through when he was Time
• 46:40
  Lord Victorious, you know, But also as well, am I right in
• 46:44
  thinking that he just put the genetics to sleep?
• 46:50
  Yeah, the best of both worlds ending put the ball to sleep and
• 46:55
  then they took them away but left the sisters to guard it,
• 47:00
  forcing them to sort out their family issues but actually waste
• 47:04
  the rest of their lives guarding this thing that isn't even
• 47:08
  there. Did I get that right?
• 47:10
  I don't think they have to wait the rest of their lives.
• 47:12
  I think they're, I think he was like, if it's going to wake up
• 47:15
  it or wake up when it thaws, so they've got to wait till the
• 47:17
  thaw. Oh.
• 47:18
  Sort the spring. Yeah, and then they can go back
• 47:21
  to being warrior ladies. But yeah, it was a very, it just
• 47:26
  took all the kind of drama out of their story because they're
• 47:31
  just hanging around for nothing. And yeah, it just felt a bit, I
• 47:37
  don't know why. I don't know why you would do
• 47:38
  that. I mean, I guess maybe it was
• 47:40
  that sort of like, let's treat the Genetrix kindly and not just
• 47:48
  kill it or leave these people here to kill it.
• 47:50
  But I mean, the Genetrix was pretty evil, right?
• 47:54
  Yeah. Have any of you read the other
• 47:57
  two books of the three? The last one's not out yet.
• 48:02
  I think it comes out November. It's weirdly far away.
• 48:05
  That's that sounds very once in future, doesn't it?
• 48:09
  Because I just want to know if the other two are as tidy and as
• 48:13
  gentle as this at the end. Like are we not taking risks
• 48:16
  with these books anymore? I'm not saying I want the
• 48:18
  revolution man, you know, the doctor picking up a gun and
• 48:19
  shooting people or things like that.
• 48:21
  But I don't know, you looked apoplectic when Andrew was
• 48:26
  talking about the climax there. Would you care to explain your
• 48:29
  feelings with us? It's a safe space.
• 48:32
  When Yeah, just when are we going to get to the fireworks
• 48:35
  factory? That is the battle.
• 48:36
  That's like, that's what I'm strapped in here for us.
• 48:39
  Let's go. Then the ending happens really
• 48:42
  quickly and we've left. OK.
• 48:45
  I've also taken the alien away and already dropped them off.
• 48:50
  Oh, and that's the I don't even remember the race.
• 48:54
  The Valkyrie ladies are staying behind to do some bonding, which
• 48:59
  they could do away from this terrible battle home.
• 49:04
  Like take your argument at home. You don't take it with you on a
• 49:07
  holiday, you know, but so much like it needed another 50 pages
• 49:15
  maybe or something, or maybe what see all the all the school
• 49:20
  went into the pros and painting a beautiful picture and Georgia
• 49:25
  Cook succeeds. And maybe just make it a
• 49:29
  historical or just make it something set something, I don't
• 49:32
  know. Maybe there's too many different
• 49:36
  things. Everything's kind of there, but
• 49:39
  nothing's been fully cooked all the way.
• 49:41
  You know, it's everything's like just maybe a minute off in the
• 49:45
  microwave being like perfectly melted cheese or something.
• 49:48
  It's. On the table, but just sort of,
• 49:50
  you know, one of those ten piece ones that no one's put it
• 49:52
  together. It's like when you when you
• 49:55
  think about the series that this has come out of and a story like
• 49:59
  dot and Bubble, which has a really brutal ending and isn't
• 50:04
  sort of nicely tied up in the way that this is a kind of neat
• 50:11
  and and ordered and everyone's learned their lesson.
• 50:14
  It feels. Yeah.
• 50:16
  Like it's a just a bit of a sort of pale cousin of the of the TV
• 50:20
  show. Like it feels like it should be
• 50:22
  on the level with the storytelling of the series
• 50:25
  that's kind of inspired it. And it feels a little bit new to
• 50:29
  it maybe. And I guess these books will
• 50:31
  always be a bit like that because they have to play within
• 50:34
  certain rules, but I just wish they could push a little bit
• 50:39
  beyond that. We had 73 yards target novel
• 50:43
  just come out as well alongside this and look at the look at
• 50:47
  what that's exploring. Look at what's his name?
• 50:50
  Roger. William.
• 50:51
  Yeah, and the the inference is there and that's in that book.
• 50:56
  So they're they're prepared in the targets to do it, but not
• 51:01
  who knows, John, the climax, were you fulfilled?
• 51:06
  No. Is that it was like edging,
• 51:08
  wasn't it? That could be very satisfying,
• 51:14
  John. You've been reading too much of
• 51:16
  that, stranger. But it looks like you never
• 51:20
  quite got to that fireworks factory.
• 51:22
  The big explosion was missing. There was no explosions missing
• 51:27
  in the Stranger was. There none whatsoever.
• 51:30
  I'm glad you 2. You 2 will spare that one.
• 51:34
  Oh come on, they've got to be reading it after our podcast,
• 51:36
  surely. But top of the list.
• 51:40
  Yeah. As I said, Doctor Who on the TV,
• 51:44
  if it prompt takes you to a historical event, it generally
• 51:47
  shows it. It.
• 51:49
  It will not dodge the battles. No matter.
• 51:52
  You know what the era is. You know how you see the Reign
• 51:54
  of Terror, the massacre. I know it doesn't work, Kurtz,
• 51:57
  you see the massacre, Rosa, you see that?
• 52:00
  The big instant they want. You see the bus even you go back
• 52:05
  to say, ask Christie. You see her losing her memory.
• 52:09
  It explains that. Even when they don't advertise
• 52:12
  the the historical setting, you see the great far of London at
• 52:16
  the end as a little surprise. Exactly.
• 52:19
  It's but you can't go back and go this is the big event without
• 52:25
  giving it a very good reason not to show it, and it doesn't quite
• 52:29
  do that. Again, the problem of trouble
• 52:32
  with books is you. The consequences that you have
• 52:35
  at the end can only be for those guest characters.
• 52:39
  And I don't know, they end up in any kind of particularly
• 52:42
  satisfying places. As we've said, there's no, you
• 52:46
  know, they reconcile, but what does that mean?
• 52:49
  You know, are they going to go and overthrow that family?
• 52:51
  Are they going to change that traditional way of life or
• 52:53
  something? I I do like that kind of idea of
• 52:56
  being kind to the monsters because that's baked into the
• 53:00
  season a little. I think that we've just had
• 53:02
  you're right from space babies onwards.
• 53:05
  But does the generics generics close?
• 53:10
  Does it even? But yes, so does it even have
• 53:16
  that kind of it never earns that kind of moment of remorse.
• 53:20
  You know, if it's if it's motivated just by survival,
• 53:23
  fine, But could it move beyond that?
• 53:28
  You don't get a sign on it, I don't think.
• 53:31
  No, I think you're. Well, look, guys, yeah.
• 53:35
  How are your notes, if you have them and if you have Eddie?
• 53:38
  Because I don't I think our our general feeling is this book is
• 53:41
  not there, but the author does show potential in certain parts.
• 53:46
  Of writing. Anything we haven't mentioned?
• 53:51
  Maverty, Andrew. I mean, the Maverty had to be
• 53:57
  there, didn't didn't it to like I don't hate the fact that
• 54:00
  Maverty was in this book. I just hate Maverty.
• 54:02
  I think it's stupid and it's not funny.
• 54:05
  I would if it was funny. Great weave it through the
• 54:08
  series, really funny. It's not fucking funny.
• 54:11
  It's just annoying. And I feel like Russell T
• 54:13
  Dovey's knows it's annoying and he keeps doing it to annoy
• 54:17
  people like. Me.
• 54:19
  We've got one line. And it's also, it's also
• 54:22
  annoying that you've got Mavity but you don't have a Suitek that
• 54:29
  I think there's maybe like a little thing of a grumbling
• 54:31
  TARDIS. There's a line that the TARDIS
• 54:33
  has seemed a bit upset lately. You don't have, what's her name?
• 54:38
  Sue Sue. You haven't got Sue Susan.
• 54:41
  What's her name? So there's there's not even a
• 54:43
  character who could be her in this.
• 54:46
  So it feels like, you know, and I feel like they were putting
• 54:49
  Bad Wolf stuff into that original batch.
• 54:52
  This just feels a little bit disconnected from the ongoing
• 54:56
  stuff, I think in a way that would have been quite easy to
• 54:58
  do. Do you imagine this was written
• 55:02
  quite early? You write a book in a hurry and
• 55:05
  it came out parallel with the series coming out.
• 55:08
  So I'm wondering if this is like those early Nsas where they
• 55:12
  basically had a couple of scripts.
• 55:14
  Yeah, I think maybe they had the scripts for Ruby Road and that
• 55:17
  was it. I was thinking about this
• 55:19
  because season twos or you know, I'm saying that it's 15, it's
• 55:25
  already been filmed, like it's finished, it's ready to go.
• 55:30
  So would they have had the extra advantage then of maybe having a
• 55:36
  sneak peek of a couple of first season episodes?
• 55:39
  I don't think it's likely because I'm particularly with
• 55:42
  the 60th anniversary thing. James Goss was talking back to
• 55:45
  the target date last year. He said they were really
• 55:49
  paranoid about it. It's like Gary, they had all
• 55:51
  three of them in the room for three episodes.
• 55:53
  So James Goss got to your 3. Gary Russell got kicked out
• 55:56
  after one. Mark Morris got kicked out after
• 55:58
  2. So they are very paroled.
• 56:01
  So I would think, yeah, I only read to me that she hadn't seen
• 56:05
  the performances yet, but I'd love to see now she's seen it, I
• 56:08
  think she could write them properly.
• 56:12
  Gary Russell. I'll be well pierced.
• 56:13
  I'm like you, trust. Me.
• 56:15
  Why can't I watch all three? I'm not going home.
• 56:18
  I used to be the fucking script editor.
• 56:20
  Yeah, I've signed ND as I know I'm fine.
• 56:22
  He's been working at the BBC for what, 20 years off and on, like
• 56:26
  something like that, Ryan. I wrote some greatest Don't you
• 56:28
  know who I am? That's why they kicked him out.
• 56:35
  Anything else from your notes, John?
• 56:39
  I I can't see anything too much. It's just kind of like, it was
• 56:41
  quite brief on this, like the book.
• 56:45
  I've only have just realized though that Genetrix does sound
• 56:49
  a lot like generic, which kind of sums up.
• 56:54
  Generics that. That's bravery on the author's
• 56:57
  part. They don't mind.
• 56:58
  They know you might go there, but they're going to go faster
• 57:01
  anyway. Have copped to their own
• 57:03
  ability. I mean, I've got another lie I'd
• 57:05
  like to say, because I thought it was gorgeous.
• 57:08
  It was like a kind of octopus, small and pale in the half
• 57:11
  light, but no larger than a bumblebee.
• 57:13
  A small clump of tiny black eyes protruded from the top of its
• 57:17
  head, glinting like black ink. She, that last detail at the end
• 57:22
  there, it just makes the centres.
• 57:23
  And she kept doing that. I kept going.
• 57:26
  Oh, that's lovely. There are twists and senses,
• 57:29
  aren't they? Yeah, they're twists and senses,
• 57:31
  but not quite on the big level. Luke, anything else to say about
• 57:36
  Ruby Red? No.
• 57:43
  I'm very pleased we've finally seen, you know, Grumpy.
• 57:46
  What's your name on Twitter again, Grumpy?
• 57:48
  Grumpy 2 EB It's the letter E and the B electric boogaloo.
• 57:55
  That's what it means, yeah. But can we?
• 57:57
  Can we at least all agree? And I think we will.
• 58:01
  But Georgia Cook has got it. She can write a book.
• 58:05
  Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of Doctor
• 58:08
  Who books that you read and you think, I never want to read
• 58:11
  anything by this person ever again?
• 58:13
  Stop. Having a go.
• 58:14
  At Simon Messingham please. I've just spent £30 on another
• 58:19
  Simon Messingham book so it better be good after your
• 58:21
  recommendations. After you picked 2 in your book.
• 58:24
  I. Saw that message and I was sort
• 58:26
  of shaking my echo. What's he doing?
• 58:28
  He's setting himself up to be annoyed.
• 58:32
  Yeah. But I would I would definitely
• 58:33
  actually read another book by Georgia Cook because I think
• 58:35
  there's so much promise in in this book and I think she can
• 58:42
  she can do better than this. And I want I want to read it.
• 58:46
  John. Yeah, I, I mean, the thing to me
• 58:48
  is she can write. That's first.
• 58:50
  She's got the prose. Can't really learn that one, you
• 58:54
  know, because that's a personal voice that comes from yourself.
• 58:57
  But plotting is the mechanics. You can learn that no problem.
• 59:00
  I, I think, you know, you give her a chance to come up with
• 59:04
  something, give her how much time she needs, she will come up
• 59:06
  with something good. And this joke said her big
• 59:08
  finish work can be brilliant at times, I think, and that's
• 59:14
  sometimes it can be easy to stand out a big finish.
• 59:16
  But yeah, she's been one of the the best writers of the new
• 59:19
  younger bachelor's come through so.
• 59:21
  You bitch. That's him.
• 59:23
  Hey, you haven't had me on do any big finish yet.
• 59:26
  You won't. Oh right, the invite's coming.
• 59:31
  Give, give me a title. I'll be there.
• 59:34
  It's a great. I know we covered that.
• 59:35
  One neck Necron to me. Necromancer, yeah.
• 59:40
  The. Cackling witches.
• 59:42
  Oh dear God, Luke, would you think David's favorite story?
• 59:45
  Georgia Cook Georgia Cook, back in the schedules.
• 59:50
  Yeah, yeah, I would. It's it's not one of those, it's
• 59:55
  not escape velocity. It's not any number of like type
• 1:00:00
  of menagerie or any number of first time Doctor Who books that
• 1:00:03
  someone has written. It's a lot better than those
• 1:00:06
  examples I just gave. Just maybe don't introduce
• 1:00:12
  something cool and not do it. That's my that's my one note.
• 1:00:16
  Just do the cool thing you build up to just do that.
• 1:00:19
  Do it because you've the writing was great.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah, maybe a bit more. Maybe if you're going to do a
• 1:00:25
  historical, have one of your main characters, at least one of
• 1:00:28
  them be from the time period in which it's set, like.
• 1:00:31
  But yeah, the price is great. I felt chilly reading it.
• 1:00:36
  So yes, you can definitely write.
• 1:00:39
  It's just melt that cheese in the microwave a little longer.
• 1:00:43
  Yeah. I don't know why.
• 1:00:45
  That's how good I am at cooking everyone.
• 1:00:47
  It's like put in the microwave. Yeah.
• 1:00:49
  You know, the last book we read was 10 Little Aliens, OK.
• 1:00:53
  And I think that's got a better plot.
• 1:00:55
  I think it's got better characters.
• 1:00:57
  I think it has better suspense and it had better twists.
• 1:01:01
  And that's from Steve Cole, who is a long standing writer who's
• 1:01:04
  written a ton of books. But I think this was better
• 1:01:08
  written than 10 Little Aliens. And that's by Georgia Cook, who
• 1:01:14
  is a first time writer. So I do think that's really
• 1:01:16
  impressive. But yeah, please, God, ditch all
• 1:01:21
  of these traditional Doctor Who elements and, you know, throw a
• 1:01:24
  few surprises our way. I'm wondering if this is her
• 1:01:27
  first novel. And in your first novel, you
• 1:01:29
  say, yes, Sir. No, Sir.
• 1:01:31
  Yes, I'll write everything you want me to write.
• 1:01:34
  And I think she was given a very strict set of guidelines and she
• 1:01:37
  wrote the book that she was asked to write, and she did it
• 1:01:41
  extremely well. But I'm wondering if she could
• 1:01:43
  be let off the leash next time. After watching.
• 1:01:47
  The series that's come out in its entirety, so really sort of
• 1:01:51
  breathing in the characters. I think we could see something
• 1:01:54
  fabulous from her. It's an audition piece almost,
• 1:01:57
  didn't it? I think much more work to
• 1:01:59
  follow. And I think, yeah, you'd hire
• 1:02:01
  her because you can see there's so much potential here.
• 1:02:05
  That's right. I'd almost, I'd almost put her
• 1:02:07
  like, all right, I almost kind of want to see her do a target
• 1:02:11
  now and yeah, Oh yeah. And then just give an extra
• 1:02:15
  50-60 pages for a second book, even something I don't know.
• 1:02:19
  I think, yeah. Imagine how she would have
• 1:02:22
  described it's not monster in space babies.
• 1:02:25
  Oh, she's got tank. I wouldn't think it's not
• 1:02:29
  monster. Where's Trout?
• 1:02:30
  And Trout would have blown blown him away and anyone of the kind
• 1:02:35
  of body horror ones. I think she can get into that is
• 1:02:37
  that and she said that description of the possession
• 1:02:41
  that which gets into the characters heads at that point
• 1:02:42
  that could work real and bring that monstrosities monstrosity
• 1:02:47
  of egg and. There are like established
• 1:02:49
  Doctor Who writers where I just can't see what they're trying to
• 1:02:51
  do visually, whereas I knew exactly what she was trying to
• 1:02:54
  explain to me. It's like Andrew said, very
• 1:02:57
  economically. Yeah, it doesn't get in the way
• 1:03:01
  of telling a story what a story there is.
• 1:03:02
  Obviously I. Think we've been fairly
• 1:03:04
  positive, despite the fact that we've all found this a bit
• 1:03:07
  underwhelming, which is quite nice.
• 1:03:09
  Oh, I've thought of one more thing to say.
• 1:03:10
  Oh, go on, Andrew. Yeah, just the to add to the
• 1:03:15
  kind of disappointment of the of the reading.
• 1:03:18
  And the reason that I chose it was Ruby Red being the title.
• 1:03:23
  And I thought, you know, this is going to be the one that focuses
• 1:03:25
  on this new companion character because I think these books were
• 1:03:28
  announced or we'd really seen anything of the new series.
• 1:03:32
  So I thought that's why I'm going to pick this one.
• 1:03:34
  You know, you've got the stone rose, you've got the story of
• 1:03:37
  Martha previous previous books which had the Campanians and the
• 1:03:41
  title where they're very central to the story and she's not.
• 1:03:44
  And I feel like I've been mis sold.
• 1:03:46
  Like the Ruby red of the title is nothing to do with Ruby.
• 1:03:50
  So which just feels like why call it that if you're not going
• 1:03:53
  to really explore this new character in prose, which is
• 1:03:56
  what I thought this was going to be from the title.
• 1:03:59
  So yeah, maybe books. More honestly, BBC Books.
• 1:04:05
  Andrew But I was very flattering that day because the day those
• 1:04:08
  books were announced, it was like a Sprint between you and
• 1:04:11
  Michael Mills to message and say, I want to do this one.
• 1:04:16
  I was like, oh, they really do like doing this wrong.
• 1:04:21
  Well. OK, let's move on to our last
• 1:04:24
  section, which is normally our recommends, but bloody hell,
• 1:04:28
  we've recommended so many books now.
• 1:04:29
  I mean, I don't think there's a stone.
• 1:04:31
  We haven't uncovered what it is. But instead I've posed a new
• 1:04:38
  section called book ranks or hamster ranks.
• 1:04:42
  Hamster book ranks? Who knows?
• 1:04:44
  Is that rhyming slang? I mean, if that's how you'll end
• 1:04:50
  the call. And so basically we're going to
• 1:04:55
  be doing a series of top threes and of all types of subjects.
• 1:05:01
  I've got some, I've been writing down some today, but if you guys
• 1:05:04
  have got any ideas, then hit me. All right, because, you know, no
• 1:05:09
  ideas. Daft.
• 1:05:10
  Today we're doing our top three favorite book companions, and
• 1:05:17
  that can be original book companions or established TV
• 1:05:21
  companions that you think are translated particularly well in
• 1:05:26
  prose form. And you are our newbie, John.
• 1:05:30
  I want to hear what your top three are and why and why
• 1:05:34
  they're Saint James. I'm, I'm not going to disappoint
• 1:05:39
  Andrew with this. I'm like, all right, well, first
• 1:05:43
  of all, and I think it's, it's going to be an obvious choice
• 1:05:45
  because you know, sometimes you, you meet someone when you're 18,
• 1:05:49
  you fall in love with them and they're there for the rest of
• 1:05:51
  your life. I just got to go for
• 1:05:54
  Christopher. Quedge Oh no.
• 1:05:56
  Sorry, I'm not into furries. Can I ask you, are you, are you
• 1:06:01
  literally ranking 1-2 and three? Yeah, because.
• 1:06:03
  That's what, yeah, I've got go, I'll say that.
• 1:06:06
  So Benny's at the top anyway, because it's kind of at the
• 1:06:10
  point where then you eventually were expanding beyond just being
• 1:06:14
  these kind of tie insurance. It was, she's the first
• 1:06:17
  companion who's designed as a literary companion because ACE,
• 1:06:21
  God bless her, she's that character on the TV and really
• 1:06:25
  what you're doing with her, you can only repeat the beats of
• 1:06:28
  Fenrick, you know. So it's a good idea to get rid
• 1:06:33
  of her. And you know, it was unpromising
• 1:06:35
  of us because the authors who followed Love and War didn't
• 1:06:40
  know, basically they hadn't read Love More so they didn't know
• 1:06:43
  what Benny was like. So you know her, the novel,
• 1:06:45
  she's possessed and then she's high on, well, cracking a tin,
• 1:06:50
  but whatever, whatever that stuff was.
• 1:06:54
  And then she kind of started developing her own personality.
• 1:06:59
  It's the white actually. You've got the visual image,
• 1:07:01
  which was at a time Emma Thompson.
• 1:07:03
  I don't think Lisa Bowman's 1,000,000 miles away from that,
• 1:07:08
  but it gives her that kind of that kind of character that you
• 1:07:12
  can engage with. She's, you know, she's smart
• 1:07:15
  without being quippy. She's she's realistic.
• 1:07:19
  She's not too far, you know, that interest in 20th century,
• 1:07:24
  which is less makes it a little control, but it gives the the
• 1:07:28
  right to something to hang on to that won't maybe kind of take
• 1:07:33
  them that they can. They can write, you know,
• 1:07:35
  someone, someone like Angie maybe doesn't quite work because
• 1:07:38
  they can't write her perspective.
• 1:07:41
  Whereas Ben, you know, Benny's almost you can write the person
• 1:07:44
  you want to be. Just that quip, that sly kind of
• 1:07:47
  grin. She's always got an answer, and
• 1:07:50
  you can put her through anything in Chuck and she'll bounce back.
• 1:07:52
  And you can see why she still travels with the Doctor.
• 1:07:54
  And she challenges the Doctor, which is always a big thing with
• 1:07:57
  companions for me. It's why I think, you know,
• 1:08:00
  Donna is maybe the best companion for the tennis Doctor.
• 1:08:02
  She challenges him, whereas I don't think Rose and Martha
• 1:08:06
  quite get that far, at least until maybe Martha's last
• 1:08:09
  episode. So, yeah, it has to be Benny,
• 1:08:13
  you know? Yeah, She, she woke up and
• 1:08:16
  laughed her head off, I think is a paraphrase of her first light.
• 1:08:18
  Yeah. You, you want to get to know
• 1:08:20
  her, you know, you want to sit around to think with her and get
• 1:08:24
  drunk. That's what I want in a book
• 1:08:25
  character. So yeah, Benny is top.
• 1:08:29
  She's almost riot proof, isn't she?
• 1:08:32
  Yes, exactly that the. Pit does exist.
• 1:08:35
  Was he she in that one? Yeah, she danced around with
• 1:08:38
  William Blake. Oh, that's right, Yeah.
• 1:08:40
  Oh, who's your #2? I will go with Fitz because
• 1:08:46
  again. Look at, look at Luke.
• 1:08:47
  Oh. No, he's stoned me faced.
• 1:08:49
  It's fine, but Fitz is again, he's a he's not far off the age
• 1:08:56
  you are then, but again, he's a character the audience book
• 1:08:59
  might just want to be so I could always kind of hang.
• 1:09:04
  I you always might be want to hang around with him and you
• 1:09:08
  know, he's a he's got the long leather jacket, he's got the the
• 1:09:14
  the cigarette and and he's just he's kind.
• 1:09:17
  You can have again, it's like Benny, you can have fun with
• 1:09:20
  him. He's being a little light today.
• 1:09:22
  I know there's, you know, the the background isn't
• 1:09:24
  particularly say read that that German post war thing, but that
• 1:09:29
  kind of gets dropped. And despite what happens to him,
• 1:09:32
  interference where, you know, is he the same guy?
• 1:09:36
  He is again? He again, he's always that kind
• 1:09:39
  of right proof companion, which is really, really fun.
• 1:09:44
  So yeah, it it again, it's because it's sort of time and
• 1:09:48
  place and it's it's kind of time.
• 1:09:50
  I was hanging. Yeah, I first got online.
• 1:09:53
  I was hanging around the Jeep or go to mailing list.
• 1:09:55
  My God, how, how many hours are we wasted talking those books on
• 1:10:01
  emails? Oh dear God, you you.
• 1:10:03
  You woke up in the morning, have a look at your emails and there
• 1:10:06
  were 60 odd overnight. I think it was your John Blum
• 1:10:09
  was arguing with someone. It's like, Oh my God, the
• 1:10:12
  ancestor sale came out and there was 5 million emails I did.
• 1:10:17
  Yes, 5 million and maybe 1/2 positive one.
• 1:10:21
  I remember Pete Angolidis came out the list words and they left
• 1:10:25
  him like 10 minutes flat. You are.
• 1:10:31
  Do you know your top 2 are the two companions that had the most
• 1:10:34
  sex in all the books? You know, I've noticed.
• 1:10:37
  I wonder if your third one follows theme.
• 1:10:39
  Oh, let's see, third one. I keep thinking those those that
• 1:10:43
  top 2 is so far ahead of animals and they thought I want to go.
• 1:10:48
  Which companions from the TV were written?
• 1:10:50
  Well, I don't know if many of them were, but I still I think
• 1:10:55
  go because I think the new series book kind of peaked late
• 1:11:00
  tenant Matt and early Matt Smith.
• 1:11:03
  So I so I think part of that is that though that those two kind
• 1:11:09
  kind of Amy and Donna are both so well written and I think part
• 1:11:15
  of it is in the performances. So I'll I'll probably because
• 1:11:19
  I'd say Donna is probably is probably my favorite new super
• 1:11:22
  fan. I'll go for Amy because again,
• 1:11:24
  Karen Gillan, brilliant actress, because she doesn't care about
• 1:11:27
  being liked. She will make interesting
• 1:11:29
  choices all the way, whether you like the character or not.
• 1:11:32
  She achieves it. Yeah, totally so but she but she
• 1:11:37
  actually does come to life on the page for me.
• 1:11:39
  And again, it's something I've I've said to Joe, maybe you can,
• 1:11:42
  which is borrowed Time, which is by mildly my favorite of the new
• 1:11:47
  series books because it is meaty is doing things.
• 1:11:51
  It yeah, it has slightly more space than Ruby red, but not
• 1:11:54
  much. And it just manages to cover it.
• 1:11:58
  It's it's literally it a story you can imagine being written
• 1:12:03
  for TV, but not quite, but having a bigger scale.
• 1:12:07
  So I think Amy and that you meet Amy's family, you see a
• 1:12:10
  relations, it deepens that and I think all appear on that book.
• 1:12:14
  I put Amy in 3rd place there. So fabulous.
• 1:12:17
  So Benny. Fitz, Amy.
• 1:12:21
  Yeah. Right.
• 1:12:23
  Let's switch across to Andrew. What's your 3?
• 1:12:31
  And I can't wait. OK, so my my top, I think is
• 1:12:42
  Angie in something that probably won't a move that probably won't
• 1:12:45
  surprise Joe, Joe and Luke. I'm always talking about how
• 1:12:48
  much I love Angie, but I think that I prefer I I latched onto
• 1:12:56
  her when when I was reading the books because she was a
• 1:12:59
  contemporary character. And she brought that kind of
• 1:13:02
  more down to earth lens on the stories than I think any of the
• 1:13:07
  other book characters had. Because they were all quite out
• 1:13:11
  there, maybe with the exception of Sam, but they were all kind
• 1:13:15
  of space people or they were from the past or they were aced.
• 1:13:20
  So Angie, she kind of felt like the first time you had just like
• 1:13:24
  a real person in those books. And you got then the kind of
• 1:13:29
  layer of contemporary references that she would bring to things,
• 1:13:32
  which made it feel like it was more of that like of its time,
• 1:13:37
  those stories. And she's just a really good
• 1:13:38
  character. And, you know, like Benny, she
• 1:13:41
  will challenge the doctor. And I think the me Benny, she's,
• 1:13:48
  I don't dislike her. She's always, I think maybe
• 1:13:50
  because there's so much of her, she's never really felt special
• 1:13:54
  in the way that some of the other companions do to me.
• 1:13:58
  And she, she's always feels a little bit contrived to me in
• 1:14:03
  the way that, you know, she's this future lady.
• 1:14:05
  But she speaks like someone from the 90s and she's very quippy.
• 1:14:10
  She's always like got the perfect quick for things, which
• 1:14:13
  sometimes takes me out of the drama of things because she's so
• 1:14:16
  kind of always got a smart, smart mouth response to
• 1:14:22
  something, which I think is why some people love her.
• 1:14:25
  But for me, Angie was a character who was just a bit
• 1:14:28
  more grounded and a bit more real and kind of there felt like
• 1:14:32
  there was more danger with that character because you didn't
• 1:14:34
  really know where the books were going to go.
• 1:14:36
  So she didn't always feel safe. And yeah, I just really like her
• 1:14:40
  as a character when she's written well.
• 1:14:45
  Number two fits again, I'm going for that late EDA run.
• 1:14:52
  And again, I like him when he's written well.
• 1:14:56
  I don't really like him when he's just the sort of blokey
• 1:14:59
  shagger. And I think that's what some
• 1:15:02
  writers bring to it. But actually, when you've got a
• 1:15:04
  better writer. He.
• 1:15:07
  Fits as a companion. You can kind of bring a
• 1:15:09
  different perspective to things with because I think because
• 1:15:12
  he's a a male companion that's immediately different from most
• 1:15:16
  of the other companions that that you get.
• 1:15:18
  So it's a kind of different perspective on the stories.
• 1:15:21
  And he's just a different sort of companion to people in that
• 1:15:23
  he's kind of this sort of slacker, but he's also got, he's
• 1:15:28
  also like super adventurous and wants to be there with the
• 1:15:31
  Doctor. And it's just that interesting
• 1:15:33
  dynamic between him and the Doctor as well that it's, it's
• 1:15:36
  just an unusual Dr. companion relationship that you don't
• 1:15:39
  really see, I think in many other ones.
• 1:15:41
  And the other male companions that we've got are usually quite
• 1:15:44
  underwritten and they're sort of the secondary companion, whereas
• 1:15:48
  Fitz is very much kind of the primary companion.
• 1:15:50
  And you we explore so many different avenues with him and,
• 1:15:55
  you know, he's just really likeable.
• 1:15:56
  So yeah, Fitz is my number 2. And your last one.
• 1:16:01
  My last one, I don't know if I'm cheating here because I don't
• 1:16:05
  know if she really counts as a companion, but, you know, we
• 1:16:09
  make the rules. So my third choice is Iris.
• 1:16:14
  Iris. Yeah.
• 1:16:17
  And I just I much prefer her as a book character than an audio
• 1:16:23
  character. Brilliant as Katie Manning is, I
• 1:16:26
  think she she just becomes a bit of a cartoon character when
• 1:16:30
  she's in audio and she's just like she's very heightened.
• 1:16:34
  Although I mean, they do give her stories like the worm Marie
• 1:16:36
  where, you know, it does explore those that emotional side of
• 1:16:39
  things. But because it's kind of a put
• 1:16:41
  on accent and it's a very kind of it's pitched at a certain
• 1:16:46
  level that audio Iris to me, the Iris that I that I love is the
• 1:16:51
  book Iris, where there's just a bit more to the character.
• 1:16:54
  There's more depth and there's more kind of nuance there.
• 1:16:57
  And you kind of you can pitch the performance at the level
• 1:17:02
  that you want it to be at when you're the one who's creating
• 1:17:05
  the story in your head. So I mean, there's definitely
• 1:17:08
  those larger than life moments, but you know, she, I think, you
• 1:17:13
  know, you could explore that character more and she's less
• 1:17:16
  just this sort of parody of the doctor on the page.
• 1:17:19
  She's got her own kind of stuff going on.
• 1:17:24
  And yeah, I think even also in those, those solo Iris books
• 1:17:29
  that that Paul Mars has done, which Katie Manning's done the
• 1:17:31
  audio books for, for Big Finish. I've been listening to those and
• 1:17:34
  I I love those as well. And I think it's just, you know,
• 1:17:38
  getting that prose version where you can kind of explore the
• 1:17:42
  character in more depth than you can and maybe like a, a shorter
• 1:17:46
  audio drama. You know mad dogs and Englishmen
• 1:17:49
  must be like peak Doctor Who for you then, because you've got
• 1:17:52
  Fitz, Angie and. Iris in that and it's read.
• 1:17:55
  By Paul Mars, who you love. You do know that one, right?
• 1:18:00
  I do like that one. Yeah.
• 1:18:02
  It's probably not my favorite of the.
• 1:18:04
  Maybe it's too much of a good thing, but I.
• 1:18:07
  Kind of suspected 1:00 and 2:00, but I had no clue Iris was
• 1:18:10
  coming up. Now, Luke, I didn't know.
• 1:18:13
  I only know one of yours. Sam Jones.
• 1:18:16
  Sam Jones. I thought you were going to do a
• 1:18:20
  Valiant. Defence of Sam Jones, Andrew.
• 1:18:24
  I mean, she's not that good, is she?
• 1:18:32
  That's fair. I don't hate, but she's she's
• 1:18:35
  not a top three, is she? That's as close to defence as
• 1:18:39
  you need, isn't it? Luke, come on then, dazzles my.
• 1:18:46
  First choice #2 what are you guys talking about?
• 1:18:50
  It's fits. Fits is my number one.
• 1:18:53
  I think for me is I like space Bros like Jamie and the Doctor
• 1:18:58
  to an extent. See, Stephen and the Doctor,
• 1:19:00
  Like, I didn't get that much that much in Doctor Who in any
• 1:19:05
  of its various mediums that often at all.
• 1:19:09
  It's like the Doctor just wants to travel with ladies.
• 1:19:11
  I'm like, well, like, OK, I can see why you might want to do
• 1:19:15
  that, but I like space Bros. Like, I like that Jamie is the
• 1:19:20
  Doctor's best loyal friend and stuff.
• 1:19:23
  And I like that aspect of Fitz as well.
• 1:19:25
  Yeah, the, the, the, the hero works.
• 1:19:27
  There's the Doctor and all that kind of stuff, but he's got his
• 1:19:28
  back, his best friend when he got Doctor loses his memories
• 1:19:32
  and doesn't know who he is. Fitz is like there for him.
• 1:19:36
  All this kind of stuff. He's, oh, he's a doggy
• 1:19:40
  companion, isn't he? Like, you know, and I like those
• 1:19:44
  aspects about him, I guess more than the guy gets laid all the
• 1:19:48
  time, even though, you know, that's nice too, I guess.
• 1:19:52
  But for me it was more just that friendship between him and the
• 1:19:56
  8th Doctor that I kind of don't get that often in in Doctor Who.
• 1:20:04
  You know, between like just two dudes being friends and stuff
• 1:20:08
  and travelling together. I don't mind if there's a 3rd or
• 1:20:10
  4th or 5th companion, anything like that.
• 1:20:12
  But you know, when you think of the 2nd Doctor's era, you think
• 1:20:16
  like results the Doctor and Jamie Victoria's there, there's
• 1:20:20
  always amazing. So you know, she adds to it as
• 1:20:22
  well. But it's it's that duo for the
• 1:20:25
  era is what like you kind of think about.
• 1:20:26
  And that's a big part of the 8th Doctor novels for me is also
• 1:20:31
  like, he's also a kind of bloke I'd go to a pub with, we'd have
• 1:20:34
  a few beers and a couple Smugs, play some good tunes.
• 1:20:38
  Or he would, I'd be there as he plays something.
• 1:20:41
  But I think it'd be fun for a karaoke night or something like
• 1:20:44
  that. It'd be a blast.
• 1:20:46
  So yeah, if it's that's for me, if it's his number one, number
• 1:20:50
  two, it's beneath really. She's the other person I'd want
• 1:20:54
  to have a drink with, except I'd probably want to.
• 1:20:57
  Yeah. Bernice as well.
• 1:20:58
  Yeah. You know.
• 1:21:01
  You'd be fighting off Ian Martin all right.
• 1:21:05
  You can tell the New Avengers fanboys, can't you?
• 1:21:07
  We've all got the poster on the wall.
• 1:21:09
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:21:11
  Is that, is that also that one of Bernice under a tree looking
• 1:21:14
  in the distance and it's like, oh, the Lee Sullivan thing?
• 1:21:18
  Yeah, yeah. She's a fictional character,
• 1:21:21
  right? No real.
• 1:21:28
  Is she like the Lara Croft of Doctor?
• 1:21:30
  Yeah. She might be, yeah.
• 1:21:32
  Predates Lara Croft. I think so they they stole the
• 1:21:35
  idea. Of course.
• 1:21:36
  I like the future archaeology kind of aspect to a character.
• 1:21:41
  She's a bit of a piss head. She's what I used to be.
• 1:21:45
  And I just, I just like that she's kind of the smarmy, sexy
• 1:21:51
  Indiana Jones in space. She was always a little bit
• 1:21:53
  Indiana Jones is to me that being like all the way there.
• 1:21:57
  But I could always imagine Benny just kind of like pulling out
• 1:22:01
  the gun and shooting someone, you know, instead of doing the
• 1:22:03
  whole sword fight. That kind of vibe with Benny I
• 1:22:06
  like as well. Like, I don't know, she's just
• 1:22:09
  always been a fun time. I think she's also like you
• 1:22:12
  think of like who would be in the most successful companions
• 1:22:15
  in Doctor Who's history. Well, In the Conversation is the
• 1:22:19
  one that's never even appeared on the TV, and that's I liked
• 1:22:24
  her solo books as well, and in fact I was enjoying her run of
• 1:22:28
  new adventures more than most of the opening salvo of the 8th
• 1:22:33
  Doctor adventures. I don't think you're the only.
• 1:22:35
  Person there. Serious.
• 1:22:37
  Yeah, that's serious is incredible.
• 1:22:41
  Really good early one by Matthew Jones.
• 1:22:43
  You got walking to Babylon. Dave Stone suddenly becomes
• 1:22:47
  palatable to me. Like I love with these Benny
• 1:22:49
  books for some reason. The doctors in it.
• 1:22:52
  It's a mess, but if it's beneath I really like it.
• 1:22:55
  Suddenly you're not right in Doctor Who anymore.
• 1:22:58
  Yeah, he can be a bit off the off the lease, I guess.
• 1:23:02
  Yeah. So for some reason we should do
• 1:23:03
  a Benny book. Yeah.
• 1:23:06
  Choose a good one for us then. Dead Romance by Lawrence.
• 1:23:09
  Miles, which isn't even. I don't think Penny's even in
• 1:23:13
  that. She's not in Christine.
• 1:23:15
  You want to stick with Lawrence Miles?
• 1:23:17
  He's did one called down. Oh, there we go.
• 1:23:19
  Which is? Yes, Yeah.
• 1:23:21
  And then if you want to win the big picture ones, if it's
• 1:23:23
  available, glass prison. Oh, I've recommended.
• 1:23:26
  That many a time on this thing. So I guess third would be, oh,
• 1:23:32
  it's Angie Poor. Not like a lot of people.
• 1:23:37
  I don't usually like modern day companions.
• 1:23:40
  I'm so sick of them. Go away.
• 1:23:44
  In fact, Joe, if you would have ever asked me what my least
• 1:23:47
  favorite planet in Doctor Who is, it's modern day Earth.
• 1:23:51
  Go away. Great choice.
• 1:23:55
  Well, don't worry, the shuttles leaving Earth so you'll be all
• 1:23:57
  right. That's right, just don't turn
• 1:24:00
  it. Go around the sun, turn around
• 1:24:01
  and come back. Unless we can like go to 984 or
• 1:24:05
  something like that. That'd be nice.
• 1:24:06
  But so I don't usually go for, in my mind, modern day Earth
• 1:24:13
  companions because I just think that they're so easy to do and
• 1:24:16
  I'm just, I'm tired of them. Like it fits from 63 and that's
• 1:24:21
  when the show started. All right, That's that's cool.
• 1:24:23
  We got beneath from the 24th century, 20, something like
• 1:24:28
  that, 25th or 6th or something. Yeah.
• 1:24:30
  Somewhere in that 300. Years, Yeah, close enough.
• 1:24:33
  You know, not much happened to 300 years and you know, so it's
• 1:24:37
  fine. But but Angie did feel
• 1:24:40
  different. Usually if you don't have too
• 1:24:44
  many companions that have this super analytical side to them, I
• 1:24:47
  know you've got Mel with the photographic memory, and I think
• 1:24:50
  there's always got that too, but the TV show is not always a good
• 1:24:55
  way of showing the really good skills that the female
• 1:24:59
  companions have. So also, she's really out of my
• 1:25:04
  wheelhouse. So I feel like every time she's
• 1:25:05
  talking about stocks and trades and things like that, I'm
• 1:25:08
  learning a little bit because I don't know that term.
• 1:25:10
  What is she talking about? Oh, OK, right.
• 1:25:13
  So I guess I'm learning a little bit with Angie.
• 1:25:16
  She's not backwards in coming forwards as well.
• 1:25:18
  She doesn't just challenge the doctor, she challenges fits.
• 1:25:21
  They have a beautiful friendship as well.
• 1:25:23
  Like they both at some stages catch themselves going.
• 1:25:26
  Should we? And then they're like, Nah,
• 1:25:28
  never work. And they're right, it never
• 1:25:30
  would work. But a few times they went there,
• 1:25:32
  I was like, don't you dare. Yeah.
• 1:25:35
  That's right, Did. Chris and Ross have a moment.
• 1:25:39
  I think they did in one book. Didn't.
• 1:25:41
  They he fell, he fell in love with her, I think something like
• 1:25:46
  that. I'm a bit hazy on it now, but
• 1:25:50
  yeah. So Angie has this kind of left
• 1:25:55
  side analytical brain that OK, I just don't have.
• 1:25:58
  So seeing things from her perspective, especially when the
• 1:26:00
  writing was good, really made her kind of stand out and pop
• 1:26:05
  out to me. And I know it's not.
• 1:26:10
  I know maybe it's close. She's a modern companion that
• 1:26:13
  this works. And I'm going back on what I
• 1:26:15
  just said. But she does feel real.
• 1:26:18
  She does seem like she's one of the few companions.
• 1:26:21
  I can imagine waking up for a nine to five, going to the gym
• 1:26:24
  before work, you know, I can imagine her doing boring,
• 1:26:29
  mundane shit. I know that's weird to say about
• 1:26:33
  a Doctor Who companion. Make it a positive.
• 1:26:35
  But I can just imagine all of that.
• 1:26:38
  And I can also imagine her screaming her freaking ass off
• 1:26:41
  as she's on this B man's back in either of Wasps just freaking
• 1:26:45
  the hell out. Oh, yeah.
• 1:26:47
  And This is why. So like hope works as well.
• 1:26:50
  It wouldn't work with like, that kind of her real.
• 1:26:53
  Isn't that groundedness? She's reacting like a real
• 1:26:56
  person would. Yeah.
• 1:26:58
  So it's a bit EDA heavier. I do love you, Chris, so don't
• 1:27:02
  worry. But yeah, fits Benny Angie.
• 1:27:08
  Well, why people are going to think we're mad?
• 1:27:12
  Because my number one, you always remember your first love,
• 1:27:16
  don't you? And I think Benny was your first
• 1:27:18
  love, John, wasn't it? Yes, He, she even.
• 1:27:22
  Yeah. My first love was Angie Kapoor
• 1:27:27
  because I came in with Eaters of Wasps and I just fell in love
• 1:27:31
  with her mostly because she was such a cunt, like she was
• 1:27:36
  horrible to everybody. And I was like, oh, I really
• 1:27:40
  want to get to know her more. And actually, as I read those
• 1:27:43
  books, and I do think that's a very strong run of books from
• 1:27:47
  The Burning through to Time 0. But especially once she comes in
• 1:27:51
  Earthworld, that sort of 20 book run, there's a couple of duds,
• 1:27:55
  but it's mostly sort of bangers. It was Angie's stuff.
• 1:27:59
  I remember reading the books going, I don't care about these
• 1:28:01
  guest characters. Where's Angie?
• 1:28:03
  I want to get to her, probably mostly because I thought of her
• 1:28:06
  as Connie Huck from Blue Peter, although most people think of
• 1:28:09
  her as Millie Wasserface from This life.
• 1:28:13
  But I'm sure we've all got some, you know, traditional Indian in
• 1:28:17
  our heads, some so Angie Kapoor. But no, I think she wasn't
• 1:28:22
  consistently written because I don't think some writers were
• 1:28:25
  smart enough to truly sort of show her tackling a problem, you
• 1:28:30
  know? But the books where she's
• 1:28:32
  written best and macrophobia trading futures time 0 itself,
• 1:28:39
  there's Year of Intelligent Tigers where she made that stand
• 1:28:43
  against the doctor and says no, no, no, you do not go off of
• 1:28:46
  those tigers. You've got a duty to these
• 1:28:48
  people. It's proper drama.
• 1:28:50
  It's really great. But you also see her like
• 1:28:53
  hanging out in Vegas in Mad Dogs and Englishmen, having a great,
• 1:28:57
  well, a terrible time in the crooked world as the Washington
• 1:29:00
  McCall. It's chased around the console.
• 1:29:02
  And so she can be really fun as well.
• 1:29:04
  And I guess she's not to everybody's taste.
• 1:29:06
  And I kind of think she's sort of Tegan done well.
• 1:29:11
  Yeah, I love Tegan, so that might be another reason why I
• 1:29:13
  joled with her so much. So I've got is a controversial
• 1:29:16
  choice, but that is my first love.
• 1:29:18
  So there we are. And MR2 and three are so
• 1:29:20
  predictable because and I don't there's like a hair's breath in
• 1:29:24
  it because I think they're both practically riot proof.
• 1:29:28
  It's Benny and Fitz and I don't, I don't really know who I could
• 1:29:33
  put second and who I could put third.
• 1:29:35
  Benny I actually prefer a big finish because I think Lisa
• 1:29:39
  Baumann just is dazzling. It's.
• 1:29:40
  Amazing and. She's played it for 20 years and
• 1:29:43
  she's never disappointed me once.
• 1:29:44
  I always have her in my head now when I read like a new adventure
• 1:29:48
  or with Benny, Benny in it. That's how good Lisa Baumann is.
• 1:29:51
  Like, yeah, every time I read something, I can't even gretch
• 1:29:56
  her for even coming in later either.
• 1:29:58
  Because, you know, if someone overwrites what you've got in
• 1:30:01
  your head, that can be junk. But it's like, no fine they
• 1:30:05
  took. That brilliant book companion.
• 1:30:07
  And then they gave her a whole new continuity with the
• 1:30:10
  collection, didn't they? On Big Finish and and a whole
• 1:30:13
  set of regulars. And it was like a whole new
• 1:30:16
  thing. They really.
• 1:30:17
  Yeah. They did something truly unique
• 1:30:18
  with that. And the only thing I don't like
• 1:30:21
  about her in the books is they just torture her so much.
• 1:30:24
  There's a run of books in the middle where you've got like
• 1:30:28
  Falls of Shadow Parasite and it's just pages and pages of
• 1:30:33
  Bernice being forced to drink blood and die and and you just
• 1:30:38
  say, why are you still going on these adventures?
• 1:30:41
  This is miserable. It's a.
• 1:30:43
  Slog of her own, isn't it? It's horrible.
• 1:30:45
  But she always bounces back, you know, And I like the fact that
• 1:30:49
  you said she does challenge the doctor quite a lot.
• 1:30:55
  She loves him, so she sticks with him all the way through.
• 1:30:58
  And it's kind of what I wish they'd done with Ace instead of
• 1:31:01
  turning her into new Ace. And that space bitch that hates
• 1:31:03
  everybody and is a total sadist is you've got Benny, who knows
• 1:31:07
  he's does terrible things for the right reasons, but terrible
• 1:31:11
  things, but she just adores him. So she keeps going along with
• 1:31:14
  him until she meets that loser in deaf and diplomacy.
• 1:31:17
  But nevermind. And Fitz, Jesus Christ.
• 1:31:21
  I mean, I don't know how many men, how many men I've got to
• 1:31:24
  stop doing this, how many women that man has slept with in his
• 1:31:27
  time. But the funniest one ever was
• 1:31:30
  when he tried to get Penelope pit stop in the.
• 1:31:32
  Crooked Wells I. Realized that she was like a
• 1:31:36
  Barbie doll and it was very embarrassing.
• 1:31:38
  No, he goes through hair as well in his room, but he sort of
• 1:31:43
  takes it all with a very sort of relaxed attitude and a siggy
• 1:31:46
  hanging out of his mouth. And yeah, I just, he's the
• 1:31:51
  Doctor's bestest friend. I can't imagine a time where
• 1:31:57
  character has stuck with the Doctor through thick and thin in
• 1:32:01
  the way that Fitz does. And I love the ending that he
• 1:32:04
  gets. Sorry.
• 1:32:06
  Turn your microphone off now, Luke, because you've.
• 1:32:08
  Not read the He gets the girl. And he has a massive falling out
• 1:32:13
  with the doctor and calls him out on his hypocrisy with all
• 1:32:16
  that amnesia bullshit, you know. Oh, you know, yeah.
• 1:32:19
  You don't remember anything until you do.
• 1:32:21
  It's I think the line. It's wonderful.
• 1:32:25
  But still, at the end of the day, the Doctor brings him back
• 1:32:29
  from the dead, doesn't he? Just like the TV movie, the
• 1:32:31
  Doctor gets to be the hero. His best friend is there.
• 1:32:34
  God, he's wonderful. He's just wonderful.
• 1:32:36
  And those Fits and Angie books, That's my favorite run of it.
• 1:32:42
  Might be one of my favourite runs of Doctor Whoever because I
• 1:32:46
  just love those two characters so much.
• 1:32:48
  And that's not a popular opinion either, but it's mine so I don't
• 1:32:52
  care. Well, my God.
• 1:32:54
  So we've got all votes for Fitz, 3 votes for Benny, three votes
• 1:32:59
  for Angie. Can I change mine?
• 1:33:05
  Oh, you've got an extract 1. I know I was with Angie, a lot
• 1:33:10
  of the debate around around the time was that they weren't quite
• 1:33:14
  getting back into a cultural background that you know,
• 1:33:17
  because doctor writers, they, they knew nothing about stocks
• 1:33:20
  and shares. They knew nothing about Indian
• 1:33:21
  culture. So the one criticism I would
• 1:33:23
  have about is that it you don't want to overplay because that
• 1:33:27
  would overpower the books maybe, but it never quite kind of
• 1:33:30
  differentiated to her between a kind of a standard companion,
• 1:33:34
  modern companion and a companion who's been written to have a
• 1:33:38
  more interesting background. Plus she could be a total cow.
• 1:33:42
  Oh yeah. But that's, that's the appeal,
• 1:33:44
  as you said, isn't it? Which?
• 1:33:45
  Is why we loved it. I mean we we did fear itself,
• 1:33:48
  which we all absolutely adored. But obviously that was written
• 1:33:51
  way after the 8th. Oh yes.
• 1:33:53
  Ended. And it's.
• 1:33:56
  What's all the things we haven't done with Angie?
• 1:33:57
  We're going to put them all in this book, right?
• 1:33:59
  Back story, family, you know, cultural heritage.
• 1:34:02
  Yeah. Unfortunately, it's just one
• 1:34:04
  book. Yeah, there was a spin off
• 1:34:06
  called Who Inc from Jade Pagoda, which is where people were, you
• 1:34:09
  know, worked out the novels they were going to pitch.
• 1:34:11
  And Johnny Morris was on it and Nick, Nick was on it as well.
• 1:34:15
  And you, you got to see that some of those developing and it
• 1:34:18
  was like, wow. Please tell him to write another
• 1:34:21
  that was. Absolutely Fabulous.
• 1:34:23
  Oh, I do know him. I'm, I'm on mailing lists with
• 1:34:27
  him. So yeah, I can do that.
• 1:34:29
  Well. Justin Richards, Steve Cole, if
• 1:34:32
  you still got your number. In the next episode, we will be
• 1:34:36
  covering a much more controversial ranking.
• 1:34:39
  List our bottom free. I wonder if Sam Jones will be on
• 1:34:45
  all of our list. Who?
• 1:34:48
  Knows, but until then guys, thank you so much for for
• 1:34:53
  reading Ruby Red John, welcome to the party.
• 1:34:56
  Thank you very much, it has been a pleasure.
• 1:34:58
  I'm left satisfied as ever. I'm just a quick round Robin.
• 1:35:03
  Where you at online? Where can people find you, Luke?
• 1:35:09
  They're on here doing books with these gentlemen.
• 1:35:13
  Well, you're on here now, for God's sake.
• 1:35:14
  That's. It I'm right here, there I am
• 1:35:18
  Grumpy 2 EB I'm there on the Tweety.
• 1:35:22
  And if for some reason you're into very weird fandoms like I
• 1:35:26
  have like Doctor Who and I guess the other weird phantom I have
• 1:35:29
  is New Japan Pro Wrestling. I have a podcast there.
• 1:35:32
  I've got a I've been over 260 episodes of that apparently.
• 1:35:36
  I don't know how that's possible.
• 1:35:37
  But yeah, never open podcasts. That's that's what that is.
• 1:35:41
  But otherwise, if it's more the Doctor Who stuff, yeah, 20 or.
• 1:35:45
  You know, but I must listen to one of those.
• 1:35:47
  I just want to know what on earth you talk about.
• 1:35:51
  People talk about that. And they we like the pageantry
• 1:35:56
  of, of wrestling too. It's not just the, the, the,
• 1:35:59
  the, the fighting and stuff. It's just like, what's their
• 1:36:01
  entrance? Like, what are they wearing?
• 1:36:02
  Like, Oh yeah. We like the package.
• 1:36:05
  Oh, no, moving on, Andrew is it find you online.
• 1:36:11
  Is it like Drag Race for straight people?
• 1:36:13
  Oh. I'm sold.
• 1:36:20
  Yes, you can find me at Doctor Who cover story on Twitter.
• 1:36:24
  That's at DW cover story for me, retweeting lots of lovely pretty
• 1:36:29
  pictures of Doctor Who related stuff.
• 1:36:32
  How many black sheeps are in there?
• 1:36:35
  Oh, I think I did all of them. If you scroll back far enough,
• 1:36:38
  you'll find all the black sheeps and John.
• 1:36:42
  Oh God, you want to listen? Yeah, I'm on the Strangers in
• 1:36:46
  Space podcast talking about Doctor Who and movies and
• 1:36:49
  whatever takes for fancy. I did football with busting
• 1:36:53
  balls, frankly, who were both big New Japan fans actually as
• 1:36:57
  well, but I have no idea what they're on about.
• 1:37:01
  Bursting balls. Busting OH.
• 1:37:03
  Busting balls, Sorry. I must be.
• 1:37:08
  I've popped up on We're All Stories in the End as well.
• 1:37:12
  Just done Frontier World actually, which was surprisingly
• 1:37:15
  fun. John, I listened to.
• 1:37:18
  One of your were all stories in the end today.
• 1:37:21
  Oh wow, which one? Which?
• 1:37:22
  Book was it? Oh, I can't even remember.
• 1:37:24
  Now which one did listen? To about four.
• 1:37:27
  So I've conundrum did oh, eternity weeps and frontier
• 1:37:31
  worlds. I can't, I don't, I don't.
• 1:37:33
  Might do another one, another one I know I'm trying to think
• 1:37:36
  of. Oh, how embarrassing.
• 1:37:38
  And I already listened to it today.
• 1:37:39
  Is that right? It was fabulous though.
• 1:37:42
  That's all. Thank you.
• 1:37:43
  Let's face it. I'll Scroll down later and let
• 1:37:45
  you know. There you go.
• 1:37:47
  Yeah, at the under score on Twitter or John Arnold on Blue
• 1:37:50
  Sky. All one word.
• 1:37:53
  I think that's about it. And please, in unison, were the
• 1:37:58
  two people that were so desperate to do this book, the
• 1:38:00
  one we're covering. Next time, please say the name
• 1:38:03
  of that book in 321. Monagra.
• 1:38:10
  Yay. That was well timed.
• 1:38:11
  Actually. We did it.
• 1:38:12
  Yeah. Oh my God, I'm so fucking
• 1:38:14
  excited to talk about that book. That was as well timed as that
• 1:38:18
  fella doing and that saluting. That's all me.
• 1:38:22
  I was also really excited to listen to the episode of
• 1:38:24
  whenever. I just kept bugging Joe for it.
• 1:38:26
  Where is it? I want to hear people talk about
• 1:38:30
  it if I can't talk about it myself, but so.
• 1:38:32
  After all this build up, it better be good, all right?
• 1:38:36
  I can't wait to hear what you make of it.
• 1:38:38
  Well, guys, Oh. I never know how to wear these
• 1:38:41
  things. Please someone do it for me.
• 1:38:43
  Bye. Keep reading.