Latest / The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick / Why Higher Density Housing Matters with Victoria Fitch - TLP164

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Why Higher Density Housing Matters with Victoria Fitch - TLP164 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

0:00
SPEAKER_01: The reality is land prices are high.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: They're going to be high.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: That's not going to change.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Where developers can find a competitive advantage is if they can get smarter with their money and with deferring costs and how they structure their deals.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: And then I think the other piece of it too is like you said, the more dense product.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is just what it's going to have to be because we can't deliver a home on a quarter acre lot anymore.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: It's just not feasible.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the land development podcast.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: If this is your first time joining us, each week when you tune in, you'll hear one of two different types of shows.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Every other Monday, you're going to hear an industry news episode.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: That's where we pull up a few different headlines and we talk about what it means for the land development industry.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Then each week on Tuesday, we have an interview style show where we have on someone associated with the industry and we dig into some topics that are of interest to them.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Now, really quick before I introduce today's guest, I have one quick housekeeping item I want to mention because it's been a minute since I've brought this up on the show.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: So when I look out there at our Spotify and Apple reviews and ratings, um, we are sitting on Spotify at 36 and on Apple we are at 26 and then eight reviews.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: So here's the here's the issue is that we have thousands of people listening in.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: And so we need to get a few more of you out there leaving us a rating and review.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: So if you're on Spotify, it's just a rating.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So if you could go out there and leave a rating, it literally takes like less than a minute.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And then if you're on Apple, you can leave a rating and a review.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be anything elaborate.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh just anything helps.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: It helps get our show in front of more people.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, in addition to the numbers of people listening, ratings and reviews also go a long way.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So if you wouldn't mind pausing right now, really quick and going and doing that and then come back to us.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I would really appreciate that.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: With that said, I'm excited today to have joining me Victoria Fitch, who is the founder of Iron Spur Real Estate.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Victoria, thanks for joining me.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Ryan.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to be here.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we had an opportunity to have a conversation uh a couple months ago and uh and talk.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And your background is really interesting.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: So I've been looking forward to uh digging in today and talking about some of the, you know, some of your experiences and everything.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think for our listeners, a good place to start is can you share with us how you first got started in real estate?
2:48
SPEAKER_01: I got into real estate in 2005.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was actually between my sophomore and junior year of college.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And my boyfriend at the time had a real estate license, and he encouraged me to get my license.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I thought, you know, why not?
3:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I did.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: I actually became a licensed real estate agent before I could even legally drink.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a funny story.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And um, I early in my career, I actually worked as a new home sales counselor.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I did that for about 10 years, um, working in model homes and selling homes directly to consumers.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: It was incredibly rewarding.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: And I learned so much about the home building industry during my time in that role.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I progressed in my leadership opportunities.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: I was an area sales manager, um, and then went into fintech.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and now back in the land scene.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: So it's been a varied path.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things I love the most about real estate is that there are so many directions a career can take.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And there are so many interesting parts that you can work on.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's just such a wonderful industry to be a part of.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm grateful that I found it early, very early in my career.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, one thing you mentioned there that I want to dig into a little bit more is the experience that you had when you were working with end consumers on selling homes.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, in in most industries, the best feedback or the way that we can learn about that industry the best is like hearing from the people who are going to be, in this case, living in the homes.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, sometimes I think there is some market research that happens, but a lot of times it may be based off of old data.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: And so we're out here maybe building homes or building different communities that aren't necessarily based on what people today want or what people tomorrow are going to want.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: What did you learn about that during that experience?
4:47
SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that you learned from those end consumers who are looking for homes?
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um, you know, I think a lot of what I learned is that, you know, a home means a lot of different things to different people.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, for some people, it's about the shelter.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: For some people, it's an investment.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: For some people, it's the peace of mind of knowing um that their families are safe.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I worked with a lot of military.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we had a lot of military families where a parent would deploy.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: And so just knowing that they their family was in a safe, secure home and that they were taken care of while they were gone, that was a big deal.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: So I think what I've learned, you know, builders always like to think, okay, well, we're gonna deliver a 2,400 square foot house and people are gonna pay, you know,$550 for it.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And that's just what it is.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: And they're thinking from that side.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And the reality is, is when consumers are making those decisions of which home they're gonna buy, yes, the value proposition is very important, but there's that human emotional element as well.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: And that can't be forgotten when we're working in corporate, you know, with our pen to paper, trying to make a performa fly.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: We can't forget that at the end of the day, it has to be a home where someone can walk in and they feel that sense of, you know, relief, of peace, of, okay, this is my home, this is my security.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that's one thing that I've really taken away that's very different from the viewpoint of a lot of my colleagues because they haven't had a similar experience.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, they've only had more of the underwriting, the asset experience, um, instead of delivering the dream.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: And really, it's it is one uh one equation for the consumer.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and I feel like for me, this is something that's been coming up more lately, and that's why I'm probably more interested in it now than I was the last, you know, two and a half years of the show since it's been around, is just hearing people talk about the, well, number one, talking about who owns all these three plus bedroom homes that are out there right now in existing inventory, and then talking about what types of homes are builders building right now.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: What is the future, you know, um, the future Gen Z and you know, generation after that?
7:17
SPEAKER_00: What is what are their home uh makeups gonna look like?
7:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, what what you know, what are they gonna have?
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna have, you know, how many children are they gonna have?
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Because we've been seeing that the number of children um per woman in the country has been decreasing, which is uh a big change for us and stuff.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: So I've definitely been taking an interest to this because I'm it's it's definitely a challenge, and I don't think the status quo is gonna work for us as a um development community and everything.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure what you've been seeing.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I know you made a transition into more on the land and development side at some point.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: I do want to get into that.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, but do you have any thoughts on on what you've been seeing or maybe hearing from just different approaches?
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Um the future of new construction is smaller, denser product.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, that is the future.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: And it's not what buyers want.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Buyers still want the suburban dream.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the reality is the cost to deliver housing um compared to you know the affordability of a household.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Um that is what the future of housing looks like.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be smaller, it's gonna be denser, um, and be more affordable.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: That's where it has to go.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, at what point did you make the switch?
8:37
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you still, and maybe you can tell us about with your company and everything, the types of asset classes and stuff you work with, but um at some point it seems like you made a switch to more of the land and land development side of things.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: When did that happen and why do you make that decision?
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I wouldn't say working in land acquisition was a dream of mine, especially for a publicly traded home builder.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: It was a dream of mine in my 20s.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of what led me on the path to get a master's degree, I have my um master's in real estate development from Hopkins.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I always wanted to go into land acquisition, but my career ended up going in a different direction.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of gave up on that dream for a long time.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And then I found myself working as the general manager for Orchard here in Colorado and covering the Seattle market as well.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And in that role, I was um purchasing homes on behalf of Orchard.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: I um invested over$1.3 billion in offers.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was a very high volume, um, really fun, amazing opportunity.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: So I did a ton of underwriting.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: I think I purchased over 3,500 homes in that role.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, so lots and lots and lots of underwriting and just grew very strong in that area.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: And so um the opportunity came up to join with Tay D Home here in Colorado under Andy Tritely.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it um it was, you know, an opportunity I had dreamed about.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: My 20-year-old self would be so impressed.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So um I went into that role and found out that I really loved it.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I really enjoy working in land.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy working early in the process, um, which is what's so fun about the work that I'm doing now with Iron Spur Real Estate.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, we are a brokerage that's heavily focused on raw land to support our developer and home builder clients who are going to develop that into residential communities.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also have strong clients in multifamily.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: So I am very residential focused on multifamily and um production home building.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Those are my two specialty areas.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do have clients that are starting to pull me over to commercial and retail and other areas.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'll hopefully be become an expert in these next few years in those areas as well.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to touch on something really quick here so I don't forget it, because you had mentioned uh a little bit about delaying your dreams or or even not even delaying necessarily, but it it was something that maybe you didn't even expect that you would do someday necessarily.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And we Yeah, no, I I had given up on it as a dream deferred, like, oh, that would have been fun, didn't work out.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh well.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, we yeah, I guess where what I'm curious about that, because we have a lot of people listening in who are aspirational developers.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, they they could be at various stages of their career.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: You have we have aspirational developers that may be relatively um young in age and new to the industry, but we have others who are not necessarily young in age, but they are new to wanting to be a developer.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they work for another organization.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: I think what I'm curious about, since you've gone through this, is there's gotta be value to the experiences that you had with some of these other companies that maybe better prepared you for where you're at today.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And I know that's not necessarily the path for everybody, but for the path that you took, um, do you think you could have made the jump sooner?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Or do you think that journey that you went on really prepared you for where you're at now?
12:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I could have made the jump sooner.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's just be honest, though, about the state of the home building industry during my career.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, I started in 2005 and, you know, six was great, but then it got real bad forever.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And what that meant for the home building community, and if you talk to anyone in the land acquisition side, they will tell you that there is this extreme shortage of talent.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: Because what ended up happening is coming out of the Great Recession, you know, home building really diminished for a solid decade after that, which is why we're experiencing the housing shortage that we have now.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we went from overbuilt to underbuilt.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: But what that meant for the home builders is that they didn't hire any new people into land acquisition.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: They kept it, kept them as like one or two-person teams.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: And so during my career, and I think the reason why I kind of gave up on it is that earlier in my career, um, those opportunities did not exist.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Those analyst opportunities to get your foot in the door didn't exist.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Acquisition manager opportunities didn't exist.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: And so they're really, even though I had interest in it, and even though I was being developed and groomed by the company um where I was at and promoted and advanced in my career, um, those land opportunities just simply were not there.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's important to understand the historical context of my career because that's very different from anybody else, right?
13:52
SPEAKER_01: That that's unique.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I would say, as far as do you need to build up experience before going into the role?
14:02
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think so.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: I think you know, you could just take a direct path if you have the right opportunity.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: What I do think though is when you come from experience, it informs everything you do from the conversations I have with landowners to the conversations I have with division presidents, to conversations I have, negotiating transactions, you know, any of those conversations, experience informs them.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think that the reason why I have experienced the level of success that I have so quickly in my role, I would attribute to my experience because I came into the role with that.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: Um but I don't think that you have to take quite the circuitous route that I have to do this role.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing I would say too is when I think of land folks, people in these roles, there are kind of two ways that you come into it.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Like you're either a specialist and all you've ever done is you were an analyst and then a manager, and that's the only thing you've ever done and all you know.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, I would call that a specialist.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: I think of myself and my career path.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I am a generalist.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm really good at a lot of different things, really good at coordinating.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: I have a wide view of, you know, different situations.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think that is the power of being a generalist.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think what uh from what you said there, I think what they call that is the uh, you're the 20-year overnight success.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like that.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because people don't people don't see the work that you put in over all the years and they see that you started your company, you know, relatively recently and you're having all this success, and and they think uh that you know, it's just like magic and it's not magic.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: You built up so many skills over the years and everything to be good at what you do.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do want to touch on um that you know, jack of all trades versus you know, specializing and everything too, because I've heard that come up before on the show.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And even throughout my own career, I've heard different opinions from different people about, oh, you should, you absolutely need to specialize.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: And then other people are like, well, you need to have an understanding of everything.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you you're referred to as you know, the jack of all trades, master of none.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, if you're a master of none, is that a problem?
16:32
SPEAKER_00: But if you're trying to run a company and you need to have an understanding of a lot of different things, you can't just be really great at this one thing.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it does make sense for entrepreneurs.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of entrepreneurs are generalists, you know, like you said.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, the way I think of it is an individual contributor is a specialist.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: That's an individual contributor.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: A leader, someone who can run a company, a division of market, and find success is a generalist because you have to be.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter when you're a leader, it doesn't matter if you're the best one at that role.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: It's insignificant because you don't do the role anymore.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Now it becomes how do you get your team to to achieve the goal, right?
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, that's kind of how I see it.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Now that being said, specialist roles are absolutely critical.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely critical.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to diminish or take away from that contribution because those people, those true experts, they are absolutely critical.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: And there are so many functions that couldn't happen without them.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: So, um, so they are incredibly important pieces of the puzzle.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: But I do think that um I do think that your influence is different, right?
17:58
SPEAKER_01: And so to your point, if you're an entrepreneur, you have to be a generalist by nature because you're you're wearing all the hats.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Um so that's kind of how I see it.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I didn't want to also diminish uh specialists because I think specialists can have very lucrative careers as well.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're yes, yeah, if you build up your knowledge and skills in a certain thing and you become one of the best in that thing, you'll be highly sought after and you'll have, you know, you'll have work for basically ever, you know.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: It's very important.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: The wealthiest people I know are specialists.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, they've had incredible success.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yes, I I agree with you.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: There, that is really um a great place to be.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: It's just a different kind of role.
18:46
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19:39
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the show.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to uh before we get into some other uh topics in the industry, one thing I did want to ask you about because I noticed it on your LinkedIn profile is that you have a lot of um involvement in different groups over the years.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: I do.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: And so uh I'm just curious what uh why has that been important to you?
19:58
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Um It's important to me.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: The reason why I've done teaching, why I've um volunteered at a lot of boards and nonprofits related to housing, the reason why I'm involved is because, like I said early in the conversation, this industry has given me so much.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: I have an incredible career, and I am so grateful for everything that the industry has given me that I do feel a true sense of duty to give back.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I say that, I'm not only talking about the people who practice in this space, but also to consumers too.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: It's really important to me.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, especially when I'm teaching, I want to make sure that I'm elevating the practice, that I'm elevating the way people are conducting business and that I'm elevating the experiences for their consumers at the end of the day.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, because to me, I believe in a very fair, open, transparent real estate market.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: I believe that real estate is the path to wealth for generational wealth for most families.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And when um, I'm gonna get out my soapbox a little bit, Ryan, because I feel passionately about this.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Hey, all good.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: But when you look at the distribution of wealth in America and you think about practices like redlining and other ways that certain groups were denied access to housing and to home ownership, and you see those um equity gaps, those wealth equity gaps between them.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, to me, that's something that was man-made that we created and something that we can absolutely turn around and change and make equitable.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: But it's going to be the providers, the professionals out there that are helping consumers.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: They're really the ones in the middle that can have the biggest impact and help right some of those wrongs and help create some more equity in, you know, in a country where wealth unfortunately is significant.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Significantly tied to whether you've had legacy homeownership opportunities or not.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: So is that uh in in some of the work that you're doing in those organizations?
22:09
SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like that's that's one of the big drivers for you personally of why you're so interested.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: And is that accurate?
22:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: So one of one of the other um organizations, and I like to I like to bring them up because we're part we're partnered with them.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I know that's not you're not on the show because you're a part of them, but when I see people are involved in Ladies and Land, I do like to pick their brain on, you know, why they got involved in the organization and what your involvement in the organization looks like.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Ladies and Land is a phenomenal organization.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Our um founder, Erica Sinner, is um just an incredible high energy leader.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: And what attracted me to Ladies and Land is that there are so few of us.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Um I, you know, I've had a varied career, and I'm used to seeing more women.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: And when I got into the land, I was actually kind of shocked at how few women there are.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, I will say my boss Andy Tritley, who I can't speak highly enough, is a huge advocate.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And we had two women on our team.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that may not sound like a lot, but it was actually a lot.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: It was great.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: It was really incredible and it was unique and different.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the reason why Ladies and Land, I think, is so important, is because number one, we need to support women in this industry because there are so few.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: And what I worry about is women leading the industry and not staying in it, as well as I worry about younger women not even thinking that it's an option for them because they don't see women in those roles.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so Ladies and Land is this awesome opportunity for some of the smartest women in the city to get together and have deep, meaningful conversations about challenges that we're facing, problems that we're working through, um, you know, anything going on with land and development.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: It's really um, it's just incredible.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And then the speakers who attend our events and present at our events are really top-notch.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: They represent the best engineering firms, legal offices, um, planners, and others who are in the industry.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we've been really fortunate.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: We're getting excited this summer.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: We have a tour of the National Western Stock Show Complex, um, which is a major redevelopment.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: It was a private partner, um, private public partnership.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, it had a brown field, it had all kinds of stuff.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: So, you want to talk about a nice, meaty development project?
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a great one.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: So, we're doing a behind-the-scenes tour and we're meeting with the development team that brought that uh redevelopment out of the ground.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna get to hear all of the um details and all of the backstory.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: So those are the kind of educational opportunities that we have.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: And then again, the real focus is, you know, encouraging women um in their career, educating them, giving them the hard skills that they need to be competitive and to um keep their competitive edge.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then those wonderful learning and networking opportunities.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: So it's a great organization.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I, you know, I had the opportunity to talk to Erica a few different times, but uh, you know, and had her on the show previously as well.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: But I think the thing that I was most interested in, especially having a 10-year-old daughter, is I like the fact that the focus is on the educational side.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: She's not coming in here like trying to, she's not trying to, you know, she's trying to educate women in the industry to get them in a spot where they can, you know, earn positions and everything in the career, you know, in their career and all that.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's definitely like a meritocracy type of approach where it's like we want to educate, we want women to understand this is an option for them.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing I think of with my daughter is that I want her to understand what options are out there and available to her.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Will she be in land development?
26:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: As of right now, she's getting she wants to be, you know, an author and an artist and things like that.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, as she gets older, I I I like her to have those opportunities or understand things are out there.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: And so um, I think the organization has been pretty interesting from that standpoint, especially talking to Erica about it and everything.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: So um definitely really interesting.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: That is the real differentiator because I've been part of other women's groups.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're generally not my cup of tea.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not really the type to go to the empowerment luncheon or the, you know, find yourself and make a Malibead thing.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just not for me.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: But um, that's what I love about Ladies and Land is it is educational.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: It's hard skills.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: There's no fluff.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: It's not a fluffy group.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: We're a hard-driving, incredibly intelligent um group that works together to advance all of us, you know?
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's what's really different to me about Ladies and Land.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, cool.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Let's uh I think at this point we'll we'll shift into uh some other things I was curious about to get get your thoughts on just based on your experiences in land and everything.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Um when you think about some of the deals that you've worked on um over the years, you know, where where do you see most of the like inefficiencies and everything in land deals today?
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Where do you think you see things like just slow down?
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that anyone will tell you the process of going through submittals and reviews is just way too long.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Um too many rounds of comments, too much time.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just think that the systems that are in place, and you know, every county is a little bit different depending on their backlog.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think those systems and the manpower that's dedicated to processing entitlements is just really insufficient.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And I get it from a city perspective.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, how do you allocate that in your budget?
28:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, especially when home building and residential development has been slower, right?
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Coming out of the Great Recession, it has been slower.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Those teams scaled back just like the everyone else.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so coming out of that, I think that, you know, cities and municipalities need to just really take a look at what their growth goals are and how best to facilitate that.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I do see timing sometimes is a factor in my clients' decision about whether they pursue a property or not.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if they know that it's a faster municipality to work with, um, then they might offer more, you know, like it might be a real winner versus the municipalities that they know are closed business.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have some of those where you're you're not gonna get an approval no matter what you do.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, those become no-go zones, um, which just obliterates a growth plan for a community.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when you think about what is the purpose of households, like what is the benefit to society of roofs?
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, the benefit is those property taxes, right?
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Which pay for the schools and the EMS and police and all of the services.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think the hardest blockade in development really is the amount of time that it takes to go through that, as well as, you know, the appetite for growth and development in areas seems misaligned with the needs and the benefit that it would provide.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is interesting seeing how you'll have some areas that are very pro-growth and they'll have really good processes for our industry, then you'll have others that just don't, and they don't necessarily want to work with the developers.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: Do you do you see, you know, I had uh I was talking to Ken Mit Mitchell not that long ago and he was telling me about he was telling me about, well, it was him and Jack Rowe both, and we were talking about land prices, and we're talking about how the um the landowners have a have a view of the value of their land right now that is misaligned with what it's really worth.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: But you get a lot of the big companies swooping in and they'll pay, they'll pay whatever for the land.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, these landowners will continue to look at their neighbor or somebody else, and they'll see these high transaction amounts, and it's causing us to be in a situation where the only way we're gonna be able to make anything, you know, attainable or affordable is by higher density because the land is so expensive.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing the same thing there in Colorado?
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: I would say that land prices are high, and land prices have always been high, though, friends.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's be honest, it's always been 20-ish percent of the budget.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I don't I think it's one of those things where it's always a pain point.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Um I think what what is unique now versus maybe 10 or 20 years ago is that the amount of supply is a lot lower.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when you think about that, why is the supply lower?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not really necessarily that there isn't enough land, but it's just that the land that's still available has issues.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it has oil wells or it has a lot of infrastructure offsites that would need to be constructed in order to deliver it.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, to me, um there is a lack of supply of land, which is gonna keep the prices high.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that is gonna change anytime in the near future.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's where developers have to be smart and find ways to structure their financing to make it work, find ways to leverage um opportunities in Colorado, um, in northern Colorado specifically, we have to dedicate water rights.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, you can work out a negotiation with the municipality and do that at time of permit instead of having to dedicate it, you know, recreation of the plat and save yourself a year of carry, right?
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that I think that the reality is land prices are high, they're gonna be high.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: That's not gonna change.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Where developers can find a competitive advantage is if they can get smarter with their money and with deferring costs and how they structure their deals.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Um and then I think the other piece of it too is uh the like you said, the more dense product.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is just a that's just what it's gonna have to be uh because we can't deliver, you know, a home on a quarter acre lot anymore.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: It's just not feasible.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: What do you uh so on that note, how do you think we meet how do we get the consumer to see that as something that makes sense for them or that they're willing to live in?
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Because I I spend a lot of time just reading comments and things from and consumers.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you don't know if they're bots or they're real people or whatever, but you get a lot of people who they still have this dream, like you talked about, of living on this half acre acre piece of land and they have their home on there and everything.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: But the reality is they can't afford it, and and they probably won't be able to afford it if they want to, you know, have home ownership, and this higher density product is what they would need to move into.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So it feels like with some people, and it's not everybody, because I know people are buying the higher density uh product, but how do we what do we do as an industry?
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any any thoughts on that?
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the million dollar question, Ryan.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: It is because you're absolutely right.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is a mismatch right now between what consumers desire and what the market can serve.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: Um and so how do we get past that?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, what I think is interesting is um I've seen some home builders, there are some of the large builders that are kind of pivoting their buyer segment strategy, like who they're catering to.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: And um instead of catering to the buyers who are more of you know, more constrained, they're just going for the high end.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's been you know, that's a strategy, right?
34:55
SPEAKER_01: Strategy is just say, hey, we're out, we're just gonna build for the top end and they can pay what they, you know, they can get what they want because they'll pay for it.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: So we'll give them the larger lot, the bigger house, the, you know, that dream.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: For, you know, the average everyday American, um, I think what it looks like for them is they're making a choice, Ryan, between do I buy the 30-year-old home on the quarter acre lot or do I buy the new construction home on a 6,000 square foot lot.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think um I think that what developers can do to help get around this is if you're delivering smaller, denser product, really making investments into your amenities, you know, the number one amenity for residential communities, and it's been this way for like 30 years, the number one amenity that people want is walking trails.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: That is the number one amenity that buyers request, walking trails.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: And that is one of the most inexpensive amenities you can do, right?
36:02
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, think get creative with your design and think about how do you amenitize so that you can overcome the objection of the small backyard.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I I hear what you're saying.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: Your yard is small, but guess what?
36:16
SPEAKER_01: We have a two and a half mile trail.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: It covers 200 acres of open space.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: How would, you know, how does that work for you?
36:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: So I think just, and I think, Ryan, that's kind of where, again, my experience actually having to do this work in the field and overcome those kind of objections is really helpful because when I'm land planning, I I already have a sense of where we're going and where we need to be.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: So I would just say get a great land planner, be very thoughtful with your amenities so that folks don't feel like the backyard is the only living space as they're going to a more attainable product, then it becomes actually you're you're buying the community.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: You're buying the whole community and you're not just buying a house here.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: So I this is kind of uh out of left field here, but yeah, you know, I was thinking about there are so many kids on electric scooters and electric bikes and stuff these days, just flying around.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of these bikes that some of these kids ride go 40, 50 miles per hour and they fly around on the sidewalks and everything.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: And uh I wonder what that does for communities.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Like some of these communities that have these massive walking trails, like you know these kids have to be flying around on them.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if that is negatively impacting that amenity at all in some of these communities.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really asked anybody that, and I was just thinking about it as you were talking about walking trails.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: It seems like it could become problematic potentially.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard any, I haven't heard any murmurings of that.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: I definitely haven't heard of any kids wiping out at a subdivision.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's good.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: Because that's where my mind goes.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm like kids on rockets with wheels.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: No, not a good idea.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: We've had a lot, I mean, we've had a lot of problems in the state of Iowa with them where yeah, because a lot of kids, and it's changed a lot now, but when they first were becoming a hot thing just like two or three years ago, yeah, you had kids were flying around, nobody was wearing helmets.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were they were flying around, and it's it's not like you're on a on a bike going four miles per hour or five miles per hour just down the sidewalk or whatever.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: You've got these kids flying, and you had a lot of you've had a lot of head injuries in the world.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: I believe that.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: And so they have passed legislation to um basically put some restrictions on the speeds that some of these can go and everything.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, that's an aside, but it's just it's something that's interesting because it does feel like as certain technology and certain things evolve, it can have an impact.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: And our parks, for instance, have signs that say, no, going faster than a certain speed.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: But do you think kids are gonna actually listen to that?
38:50
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: I do think like on the development side, you know, that's where your HOA planning really comes into effect, right?
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Is you know, if you want to limit access, maybe your trail is non-motorized only.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, you could certainly do things like that to try to address some of those issues.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: But I hear what you're saying.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: If they're, you know, flying around, chances are they don't really care what the HOA rules are either.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: But at least there's some accountability um to enforce them.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's interesting.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would be interested for any of you listening in who have dealt with this in any of your communities, shoot me a note, let me know.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I'm curious on how some of this is being addressed and whether it maybe it's not a problem.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe I don't know, parents are able to wrangle their kids good enough, but I have a feeling that just some kids are gonna do what they're gonna do and um you know may cause problems.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Um I guess one uh one thing I like to ask on the show here is around, you know, a favorite project.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: So over the years, you know, some of the different, you know, communities you worked on or projects or deals you've been a part of.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any that has one that's maybe been a favorite or one that really stands out in your mind you could talk about?
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Um I was a developer rep on a large public-private partnership out in Baltimore.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, Forest City was the master developer on that project.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: And I worked for one of the subs, um, one of the sub-developers underneath them, delivering residential housing.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And that one was really interesting because um it it was on behalf of Johns Hopkins University.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: They were expanding their biotech facilities.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, and as part of that, they ended up doing this redevelopment of this neighborhood adjacent, directly adjacent to Hopkins.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: And the reason why it stands out is because this community, you know, literally was kind of living in the shadow of Johns Hopkins University.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: And um it was a community that struggled with crime and poverty and a lot of the inner city issues that Baltimore struggles with.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And what ended up happening was the development team for City worked with the city of Baltimore and they ended up using eminent domain to take this neighborhood.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: They took like an entire neighborhood.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and it actually worked out beautifully because these folks were given replacement value for their homes, and many of them were able to relocate to thriving neighborhoods.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Whereas, like again, this neighborhood was very run down.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: The housing stock was really bad, it was in poor shape.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so it was this really awesome fresh start for a lot of people.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if the properties had not been taken through eminent domain, they would have gotten market value.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And the market value was half of the amount that they were given for replacement value.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: So the reason why that stands out to me, I mean, number one, it's the only eminent domain development I've ever been a part of.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is wild in and of itself.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: And then I just, you know, it was one that I went into where I was a little bit worried about if I was gonna be the bad guy, you know, walking into as the developer rep.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and it ended up, again, just working out beautifully and really was this incredible boost and opportunity for these families.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was very rewarding to see.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: And then the housing that we delivered, we delivered a senior housing facility.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: We delivered um market rate and affordable units.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: We had a mix.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we were able to take down this very dangerous, honestly, dangerous housing stock, row homes kind of collapsing in on each other.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really was bad.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: So we were able to get rid of all of that, remove all the blight, and restore this neighborhood.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: And the folks, there were folks who wanted to stay.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: And so they got their first pick of homes.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there were other folks who decided to relocate elsewhere.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it was great.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: It was really community building at its finest.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And there is nothing more rewarding than that.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you usually, when you hear eminent domain, a lot of times you you hear the stories of the, you know, the farmer who has part of his land taken to run a highway through it or something like that.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and you hear it from that side of things.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of interesting to hear your uh your experience with it where it worked out on a positive side and the community actually supported it.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, I should say the investors in the neighborhood were not happy.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Only homeowners got replacement value, investors got market value, but hey, they were still made whole.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: So um, but yeah, no, I agree with you.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: I think that's why I enjoy telling this story too, Ryan, is because eminent domain has such a negative connotation, but it's a tool.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think if I get Anything across today to your viewers, I think really what I want to get across is like you need to use every tool in your tool belt, even the ones that sound scary that you're not familiar with, because this industry trying to do land development, it is so highly competitive.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: Your margins are slim, and you really have to focus on where you can find those competitive advantages.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually have a deal that I'm working on right now where I've recommended that we consider eminent domain for a similar situation.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Both parties are in agreement, but we we have a gap.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: And eminent domain could be a way to bridge the gap.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, so be creative, use all your tools, even if you think they might have a negative connotation, you know, take another look and see how you can use it as a tool.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's go ahead and shift into the last segment, which is the lightning round.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: So, five questions for you.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: All right, first one.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: What's one underrated skill in land brokerage?
45:00
SPEAKER_02: Being nice to people.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Kindness goes a long way.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm always surprised people tell me that I'm so nice or so kind, and I'm just baseline, but I really feel like there is kind of a lack of respect and kindness in our industry.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of that is trying to negotiate and like be hard, right?
45:26
SPEAKER_01: I I would like to invite all of us to just soften a little bit and remember we're all colleagues and to treat everybody just with kindness and respect.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: All right.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Second one.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: What's the best way to build trust early on in a deal?
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Besides kindness.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, be honest about what you don't know.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: I think that's another one.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: People are afraid to ask questions because they don't want to appear stupid or like they don't know what they're doing, especially if you're newer in the industry.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Being new or being ignorant about something is a superpower.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: It's a wonderful way to build trust.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: You just go back to them and you say, Hey, this, I haven't plugged and abandoned an oil well before.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: This is new to me.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me more about it?
46:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, a seller or another broker, whoever you're working with, they're gonna love that you're interested and they're gonna enjoy explaining it to you.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's a win-win.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: It builds trust and it helps you understand the areas where you're weak.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: So just be transparent, be honest about it, and use it as that opportunity to build trust.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: All right, third one.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: What's something that developers wish landowners better understood?
46:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say the timing.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: The timing is just always one of those pieces that is so difficult.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: And sellers bless their hearts, you know, they want to be out in 90 days.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, it's like two to three years.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: Um so yes, I I think that is the thing.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: I wish they knew.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: All right, fourth one.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: What's one habit that has helped you as a leader?
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, one habit that has helped me is doing a weekly reflection.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, on Sundays, I like to look back on the past week at what went well and and what could have been better.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: And then I use that to help plan my next week ahead.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: All right, last one.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: If you weren't in real estate or development, what would you be doing instead?
47:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I think I would be doing something in health, probably like kinesiology or um orthopedics or something.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: I always was really interested in that.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, so so maybe I'd be a doctor.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'd be Dr.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: Fitch.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
47:46
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: All right.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, Victoria, I really appreciate you hopping on here and uh and sharing your experiences and everything.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: What's the best way for people listening in to connect with you and to learn more about your company?
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Um find me on LinkedIn.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: That is the best way to reach out.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: You're welcome to message me, jump on my page.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm happy to communicate.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: So find me on LinkedIn.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: All right.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, I will put the link to uh your LinkedIn on the show notes page.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: So, those of you listening in, if you look at the description below, you will see a link there to the show notes page.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: And on the show notes page, you'll see um the LinkedIn link.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: So, well, with that said, again, really appreciate you hopping on here.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: And for those of you listening in, if you're not already subscribed, I'd appreciate it if you'd click that button.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: We'd love to have you back for the next one.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ryan.