Latest / Giant Ideas / "Mothers Can Do it All. They Just Shouldn't Do it On Their Own" - Former NZ Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's Life Lessons

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"Mothers Can Do it All. They Just Shouldn't Do it On Their Own" - Former NZ Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's Life Lessons · Giant Ideas

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't mind him asking me.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did not agree with the idea that every woman should face that.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's be honest, if an employer is asking a prospective employer if they intend to have children, it's not so they can prepare the gift basket.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Jacinda, welcome back to giant ideas.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Last week you shared your giant ideas.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: This week we're going to ask about the person behind the ideas.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we ask all our guests if you could choose three photographs that defined your life and what you've learnt in your life, what would those three photographs be?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oof.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I spent like, you know, like 140,000 words trying to answer this question in a book.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first would be from my childhood, um, you know, in the frame my um, my parents, my sister, and probably in the really early years, I grew up in two places, most of my time spent in a really um wonderful small town called Morensville, but a few years in an even smaller town called Murupada.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you can never quite pinpoint if you're a political person or, you know, someone who uh, you know, wants to commit their lives to lofty ambitions like changing the world, where exactly that comes from.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: But in part, you know, those those few years in Murupada, I think uh showed me how strongly I felt about just making sure that you're just doing what you can around inequality, uh fairness, and particularly for kids.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and child poverty has been something I've cared about since as long as I can remember, carried it with me all the way through my time in politics.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think that's its origin.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, the reason it would be a photo in Murupada, but with my parents, is because the values, that idea that you should go and do something uh that is of service to other people.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was very much from my parents.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: What would be your second photograph?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Probably probably one from my time in office because it was, you know, the it the greatest, it will be the greatest privilege of my life.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are a few photos from March 15 that will always stay, stay with me.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: You often get asked that question when you finish in a job like that, you know, whether or not you're a different person.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I find it quite hard to explain.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't fundamentally think I am, but I do now carry extra things with me.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one is just the sadness that I know I'll, you know, I'll never shake from that from that period.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what those images represent for me, the deep privilege uh of office, but sometimes the sadness that can come with it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and your third?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Third would just be my my husband and my daughter.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh, you know, we've got lots of you know, snaps together now of us experiencing the world together.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they just bring me such joy.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the great things about the last couple of years, while we've been away from our home, is that you know, I can come to realise actually I can be I can be pretty happy anywhere when I'm with my when I'm with my family.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: You became the youngest ever female head of government at 37.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about you that enabled you to see this kind of success so early in your life?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nope, could not visualize that for a moment, you know.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it and I think it's one of the things I struggle with a little bit is that I want so much, you know, those who might have a little bit of a confidence gap to put themselves into the position where they, you know, they are putting themselves forward for leadership.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I I didn't.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so I'm also almost- You're a reluctant leader.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was, and it was a really bizarre set of circumstances.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, seven weeks out for an election, we're in the early 20s, percentage-wise, which was not enough to win.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my boss, you know, realizes that maybe he might not be able to pull it off and and suggests I take over.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell him, absolutely not.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to stick with it.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what a terrifying prospect.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Who takes over the leadership seven weeks out from an election?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then a week later, there was no choice.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: He came to work and he quit.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so I think, you know, what in part I feel this now, this obligation to say, well, I I may not have chosen it, but I'd like to think I tried to prove something once I was there.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so now I want to encourage other people that you don't have to be in those very particular circumstances.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, um, just push through that hesitancy, that reluctance.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's that truism about the best leaders being those who don't don't seek power.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And at the moment, we could use a bit more of that, I think.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: In your resignation remarks, you you said that I know what this job takes, and candidly, I I no longer have in the tank what's what's required.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: What was going on for you at that moment in time?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I really um try and differentiate between between the idea of burnout because you know, burnout in my mind, I kind of think of you're in the fetal position in the corner, and that and that wasn't me.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I could have kept going.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just didn't think I could keep going to the standard that I thought was, you know, that was necessary.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I also had to make a long-term decision because it was like a, you know, we were a year out from an election.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and for that I needed to commit to another three years.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the contract.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like the idea of running and then saying, well, after a year I'm off.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That didn't feel right to me.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, a year out I had to make that call.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was just as I said, I just thought actually, five years felt like 10.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'd been in politics for 15 altogether.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it felt like the right thing to do was for someone else to take over.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: For the for the parents amongst our listeners, particularly the mums, you you had a baby while you were prime minister.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Reflecting on that now, what what did you learn about yourself?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: What did you learn about what's possible, what's not possible?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us about a bit about that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: The great thing is, I I didn't know what it was to be a prime minister without being pregnant and having a child.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you, you know, you just, you know, as my husband always used to say, there's only one way to eat an elephant, you know, one one bite at a time.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's literally how it felt.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: You just took every, I think you can really easily feel overwhelmed if you think it in the round.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, life was just a set of logistics each day.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And just breaking it down, taking each day as it come as it came.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one thing I had to get past was the idea that I could control everything, you know, and I think that's, you know, one of an unfortunate, one of my toxic traits.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when you've got a baby, I mean, they're just not going to run to whatever schedule you have in mind.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had to let go.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had to accept help.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I had to let a village in.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Those were all good things uh in the end.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but what I would say is yes, women and mothers can do it all, they just shouldn't do it on their own.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that that for me was really important to model.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hated the idea of someone thinking, well, whew, you know, I'm failing because look at everything she's doing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I never did it by myself.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen some fantastic clips of you fighting back against some pretty shocking misogyny on local radio stations with an ex-cricketer on the radio.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I saw one where you were like, you do not ask questions like that.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Women should not be forced to talk about whether they're gonna have a baby or not when they're taking a job and so on.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: What you you face some pretty shocking stuff.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, tell us about that.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: How did you deal with it?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think I I grappled with this because there's always this, you know, I felt at least.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like on some occasions where I experienced, you know, a cartoon that would portray me and, you know, like a bikini in a set of stilitos as a tokenistic politician, which is one of the ones that I had.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I got asked for comment, and I remember thinking, if I get stuck in, I'm gonna be portrayed as humorless.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I thought it was often those were all lose-lose situations.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So often I I would ignore it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And to be fair, it was not my overwhelming experience of politics, was not fighting every single day sexism.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: It just wasn't, and so I I, you know, in part, sometimes ignoring it felt like the better option.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then there were these times where I thought, but for anyone watching, I think sometimes it is right to push back.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and so on that particular example you raised, I didn't mind him asking me because I'd chosen to put those discussions out into the open.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've been asked before and I'd answer the question.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I did not agree with the idea that every woman should face that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's be honest, if an employer is asking a prospective employer if they intend to have children, it's not so they can prepare the gift basket.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so that I thought was worthy of pushback.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was my first day, my first full day as leader of the Labour Party that happened.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember my press secretary, he just looked ashy, you know, because he he had no idea how it would go, and nor did I.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought I've just, I've gotta, I've got to still be true to who I am.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Last question from me.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: You had this extraordinary moment where, as you say, seven weeks out from an election, you're not expecting to be the leader, let alone be the prime minister.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Then just in the mania takes over across the world, you become this global figure, and people are, you know, looking up to you as a role model, been on this very, very wild ride as a person.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you then leave office in your 40s.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And in a way, perhaps it's similar to, I always always think this with sports stars, where you have this incredible career in your kind of 20s, early 30s, and then you retire from sports and you've got to move on to the next thing and the rest of your life is in front of you.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the challenge of kind of recreating that buzz, because it must have been incredibly fun as well as challenging and the bright lights and and all of it.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: How are you thinking about kind of re-energizing for the next chapter?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is the next chapter?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear that.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel like I'm in the next chapter.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I I spend some quite a bit of time learning how to write in order to write a book.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: That was an exciting challenge.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still the patron for the Christchurch Call to Action, which is a um piece of work around violent extremism and terrorism online.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I work on issues like radicalization and and how to uh how we address those issues, working alongside civil society and technology companies.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm the uh uh special envoy for Oceania for COP.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I work on climate issues and I'm on the board of the Earthshop Prize.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm doing a piece of work with Oxford uh through the World Leaders Circle on Empathetic Leadership.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I still finding, you know, if there's an existential crisis somewhere, you'll find me there.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you miss the buzz of being prime minister?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I miss I miss the people I worked with, and I miss the fact that you can see a problem and then you've got the ability to fix it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's such a I mean, how many jobs can do that?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I do not regret the decision.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those two two things can be true.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: No regrets can be true, no regrets.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the one thing I will say is that it doesn't the step change for me.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the stress is far different, the pace of life is far different.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I never felt the mania that you describe.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um New Zealand is a a place that values humility, expects humility, is very egalitarian, does not expect anyone to, you know, lose sight of who they are and why they're there.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, um, so I love that about my home.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it has meant that the journey from Prime Minister back into civilian life was a very easy one for me because I I'd like to think I never forgot who I was or why I was there.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's an incredible note to end on.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jacinda, thank you so much for joining us on Joy Ideas.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.