Latest / Identity at the Center / #224 - Exploring the Latest Trends and Developments in IAM with David Lee, The Identity Jedi

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#224 - Exploring the Latest Trends and Developments in IAM with David Lee, The Identity Jedi · Identity at the Center

• 0:05
  This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
• 0:11
  am, This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
• 0:17
  Jeff Steadman. Welcome to the Identity at the
• 0:21
  Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
• 0:23
  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
• 0:26
  Oh, not so bad yourself. Good, good.
• 0:28
  Earlier today I I joined a like an annual or quarterly meeting
• 0:34
  for the 1414 venture group, some of the folks that we had on the
• 0:38
  podcast in the back in the past Jackie Shobak and Howard Hall
• 0:42
  and kind of got into you know my perspective on this is the
• 0:46
  expanding, expanding scope of the identity.
• 0:52
  Industry, right. We're going from kind of the
• 0:54
  traditional towers of authentication, authorization,
• 1:01
  access management, identity, governance, even customer.
• 1:05
  I am I would say more fits into that.
• 1:07
  It's been around for so long and now we've got all these new
• 1:10
  areas popping up like I TDR, identity proofing, decentralized
• 1:17
  identity and machine accounts. And so I just kind of expanded
• 1:20
  on those I I said look there's. A lot of activity going on in
• 1:24
  these spaces and a lot of companies in stealth and you
• 1:29
  know, kind of how do you find those companies.
• 1:31
  And you know that I don't always have the answer to, But if there
• 1:35
  are folks out there who are kind of in the stealth mode and want
• 1:39
  to connect back to them and be able to pitch where they're at,
• 1:43
  you know, reach out to me and Jeff and you know, we'd be more
• 1:46
  than happy to make those connections.
• 1:49
  Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of good
• 1:50
  ideas out there and some, I'm sure stuff we've never heard of
• 1:54
  them was like, yeah, that's like a no brainer.
• 1:55
  I was thinking about that before.
• 1:57
  And yeah, it's a good group over there too.
• 2:00
  I mean, just good people. We've had them on the show like
• 2:02
  said before and hopefully we can connect dots if that's something
• 2:06
  that you're working on and you want to do an introduction, you
• 2:09
  know, reach out to Jim myself. We're happy to to make that
• 2:11
  happen. But I don't know, I mean, I feel
• 2:14
  like. There's so many untapped
• 2:16
  potential. Still.
• 2:17
  Did AI come up at all as part of that conversation?
• 2:20
  No, I avoided it because, you know, I did.
• 2:23
  I wasn't there. Yeah.
• 2:24
  Because. You weren't there.
• 2:26
  But from an AI perspective, I did have my AI enhanced
• 2:31
  headshot. And So what I said was like,
• 2:33
  there is value in AI, even if you're an AI hater, AI headshots
• 2:38
  look a lot better. Yeah, the one you texted me was.
• 2:42
  I got to tell you, man, it was good.
• 2:43
  It was real good. But I know, really you You
• 2:47
  square off your jaw and, like, you know, you chisel your chin.
• 2:51
  I mean, heck, you know what's wrong with that?
• 2:53
  I mean, yeah, square off my jaw, the rest of my body, everything.
• 2:58
  Could use some some more definition, but it was it was a
• 3:02
  good looking picture. I I'll give you that.
• 3:04
  My concern is that okay, this is what you look like in the
• 3:07
  picture and then you end up disappointing someone.
• 3:10
  In real life you don't like anything like that.
• 3:14
  You're welcome to my world. Yeah, well, OK.
• 3:18
  Speaking of not hopefully not disappointing people as a very
• 3:22
  awkward transition to, let's talk about the Authenticate
• 3:25
  conference coming up in October. You and I are going to be there
• 3:30
  October 16th through the 18th in Carlsbad, CA on a golf course.
• 3:35
  I think it's the Omni resort, something like that there.
• 3:38
  I don't have the the full name in front of me, probably should
• 3:40
  have done that, but if you're listening to this, you can get a
• 3:43
  discount. I D AC15 podcast gets you 15%
• 3:46
  off your in person registration. We had a planning meeting
• 3:50
  earlier today, Jim, about what we're going to be doing.
• 3:53
  We're on the main stage. At some point.
• 3:56
  I think midday we might be the lunch blocker, which is always a
• 3:58
  great spot to be in. We're part of the keynote, man.
• 4:02
  Yeah, like, but we're going to run for lunch.
• 4:05
  We're thinking about like doing like a live podcast style
• 4:10
  presentation type thing, right? It's.
• 4:13
  And we'll have some people on the stage with us, I think kind
• 4:15
  of thinking about, you know what topics make the most sense.
• 4:18
  Maybe this is a call out for people who are listening.
• 4:20
  Are there things that you would like us to talk about on stage
• 4:23
  at the Authenticate conference? You know, obviously needs to be
• 4:25
  probably somewhat appropriate to authentication, fight alliance
• 4:28
  pass keys, password less right things like that.
• 4:30
  But we love to hear ideas. Obviously, you know, if you're
• 4:33
  if you're looking to attend, whether you're in person or if
• 4:38
  you're doing something remote because it's, I think it's gonna
• 4:39
  be live streamed as well. Always rather answer questions
• 4:43
  rather than just kind of try to figure out what people want.
• 4:46
  But it's going to be exciting. I think we're going to, we're
• 4:48
  going to have a cool live show. It's going to be streamed to, I
• 4:50
  don't know, millions, billions of people and yeah.
• 4:55
  To 9 billion people, right? Yeah.
• 4:59
  And all that. Real people and all the fake
• 5:01
  people. Yeah, well, I think it's The
• 5:04
  Last of Us we put out, we were like, oh, there's no way, no
• 5:06
  second last episode was like. There was no way we could talk
• 5:09
  for 90 minutes, right? That's how we started off the
• 5:11
  show. And then what did we do?
• 5:13
  We recorded for 90 minutes, by far the longest episode we've
• 5:16
  done, I think by like a good 10 minutes.
• 5:18
  So I'm sure we can fill time if needed, but we'll give about an
• 5:21
  hour's worth of a presentation. On the last thing that I'm
• 5:24
  really excited about, so if you use our discount code, you
• 5:27
  automatically get entered into a raffle and the the kind folks
• 5:31
  who are putting on the conference are going to put
• 5:34
  together some kind of goodie bag.
• 5:36
  And it's going to be the prize for the person who selected
• 5:39
  that. Now it could be a bag full of
• 5:41
  trinkets, Halloween candy. I have no idea.
• 5:45
  But it's going to be something. So you know, make sure you use
• 5:48
  that code, You get 15% off and and maybe get a prize.
• 5:52
  Yeah, that'd be kind of cool. I don't know.
• 5:54
  I'm not sure yet how that's going to work.
• 5:55
  Don't have a lot of details, but use the code, support the Show
• 5:58
  ID AC15 podcast. I'll have it in our show notes
• 6:01
  too, so people can use it there. But yeah, there'll be something.
• 6:06
  For a Lucky ID AC15 podcast code user of some sort.
• 6:14
  So we got that. I'm going to be at Identity Week
• 6:17
  America. A couple weeks before that in
• 6:20
  DC, I'm hosting a panel there talking about passkeys and
• 6:23
  things like that. So if you're going to be out
• 6:25
  there and we're working on a discount code for that one as
• 6:28
  well. So good news is we have discount
• 6:30
  codes and they're and they're for two conferences.
• 6:32
  Couldn't be further apart from each other in the US, the ones
• 6:35
  in DC on the East Coast, the other ones in California and the
• 6:38
  West Coast. The the the dates and times
• 6:41
  don't overlap. So there won't be any conflict
• 6:42
  or anything like that. But we'll have that in the
• 6:45
  future show. So keep an eye out for that okay
• 6:48
  enough promotion. Why don't we get to our topic
• 6:51
  today? Because I think this is a
• 6:52
  conversation with an individual that's probably a long time
• 6:55
  coming and I feel like I want to say that this is his second
• 7:01
  appearance on the show. And the only way that you would
• 7:04
  know that is if you listen to one of the identifier shows
• 7:06
  where I won't say it was harassment or physical, you
• 7:13
  know, accostment of one of our accosting one of our our guests
• 7:17
  as we were recording in the hallway there.
• 7:19
  But this is someone we're excited to have on the show.
• 7:21
  His name is David Lee. He's an author, a speaker, a
• 7:25
  finance guy. He is an aspiring mogul and most
• 7:29
  importantly for us, he is the identity Jedi.
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  So welcome to the show, David. Thanks.
• 7:34
  That's a great introduction. And no, it was not Assault.
• 7:40
  It was a nice, it's a nice shoulder massage.
• 7:42
  I was trying to make sure Ian was nice and prepped for his
• 7:45
  interview. Yeah, well, Ian's good people
• 7:47
  and we took him in stride, but. Yeah, great to have you on here.
• 7:51
  I think for for people who don't know who you are and you've,
• 7:55
  you've put out a lot of content. You've got, you know, YouTube
• 7:58
  channel and you've got a whole bunch of stuff you work on.
• 8:01
  But hey, this is, I guess we'll call it officially the first
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  time. We've actually got to sit and
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  talk with you. We want to find out identity
• 8:07
  origin stories, you know, how did you get into the world of
• 8:10
  identity? Is it something that you chose
• 8:12
  or did it choose you? Yeah, so.
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  Great question because I, I love to ask those to people as well.
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  So it shows me and how it started was I came out of
• 8:24
  college, wanted to be like it's the best software engineer ever.
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  And so I started working for federal contracting for the
• 8:31
  government. And so my first contract, it
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  was, you know, pretty cool. I was doing some J2 EE stuff.
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  That's how old I am. And then I got onto another and
• 8:41
  it's another project and it was like, hey, like we're going to
• 8:43
  build this. System where people are going to
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  like you have to manage access and you have to create a way for
• 8:49
  people to request the access and it just it sounded like so super
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  cool and indepth and I'm thinking oh man I'm going to get
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  a chance to build like something really cool.
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  So I come in there day one and I'm just I'm all ready to go
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  right. I'm I'm fresh stuff on you know
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  Java and how we can do this and the latest things that we can
• 9:04
  do. We got like these swing applets
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  and all the stuff that we can build like I am super geek and
• 9:08
  like the architecture's looking at me he's like huh.
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  It's pretty cool. I came in, check this out, like,
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  you know, because the first week back then it took forever to get
• 9:15
  your access. So I'm building prototypes, all
• 9:17
  this stuff or whatever. And he's like, that's great.
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  So he comes in and he takes like these two big books, the Sun,
• 9:23
  IDM training books, drops them on my desk and goes read through
• 9:27
  there. I'll teach you how to install
• 9:28
  it. That's the product we're working
• 9:30
  on. We got to get this up and
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  deployed in the next 60 days. Oh, by the way, I'm going on
• 9:34
  vacation for two weeks. I expect you to have this
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  figured out by the time I get back.
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  Welcome to the project, kid. And walked out And I'm like,
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  huh? And that's literally how I came
• 9:43
  into Identity. I had no clue what it was.
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  So I started installing some Identity manager, going through
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  and figuring out the more I'm playing with this thing, I'm
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  like, I don't need to code anything, like it's kind of all
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  there. And so I'm digging into this
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  language, figuring out what it is.
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  And I'm the type of person that once I'm working with something,
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  I need to understand everything about it to really understand
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  where it works. And the analogy I like to use is
• 10:02
  like, you know, if you give me a hammer, I want to go look at the
• 10:04
  tool set because I want to understand, like, what does this
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  hammer relate to? Everything else that's send me
• 10:08
  okay. Well, This is why I use this
• 10:09
  instead of a screwdriver. And so that just put me down a
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  rabbit hole. I got really good at some idea
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  understanding roles, provisioning, what Ldaps were,
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  what access was, what access management, what certificate
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  authorities were, and just yadda yadda yadda on and on and on.
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  I've been doing it ever since, so it shows me, and I'm kind of
• 10:25
  glad I did. I kind of like the idea of.
• 10:29
  Make this trial by fire that you got right.
• 10:31
  This guy shows up. He's got books drops on your
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  desk like I'm. I'm out of here.
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  Peace. See him like sick.
• 10:36
  You know in a couple weeks. You know welcome to the jungle
• 10:39
  plays in the background and you're like, all right, well, I
• 10:41
  guess I got to get to this right.
• 10:42
  I feel like this is like a movie scene that can like come
• 10:45
  together and now you've got this thing called the I am Jedi.
• 10:50
  Tell me about the identity Jedi. Like, what is this?
• 10:54
  Yeah, there's a newsletter. I'm signed up.
• 10:56
  I'm getting stuff from you like it seems like every day.
• 10:59
  Like, tell me about this. Yeah, so this all originated.
• 11:03
  I did a talk at Identifiers, I don't know, maybe two or three
• 11:06
  years ago. Now I have to go look it up.
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  But it's called how to How to Become an identity, right?
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  News slash. I'm a huge Star Wars man.
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  But at the time I was just thinking there was, we started
• 11:16
  to see this wave of people coming into identity, right.
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  And what I would say like the second generation of.
• 11:22
  Where there was a lot more information out there now like
• 11:24
  so back like when I started probably I would, I would assume
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  when you guys started like you learn this by just doing it and
• 11:29
  whatever vendor product you had and then you learned other stuff
• 11:31
  like they just there wasn't any place to go.
• 11:33
  We didn't have forms. We didn't have anything.
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  It was just there you go. And so as I was talking to
• 11:38
  customers, I started noticing like a lot of them were just
• 11:40
  struggling understanding these concepts and basics and a lot of
• 11:43
  people that have been leading these organizations, you know
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  knew nothing about identity. They were just giving A-Team go
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  run this, you now have to do this and so.
• 11:51
  I wanted to create this presentation.
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  We're just like, okay, This is, this is what it is.
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  Here's how you can be successful.
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  There's busiest side, there's technical side.
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  So I was like, okay, here's how you become an identity Jedi.
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  And then I just kind of stuck with it.
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  People loved that talk. They kept going.
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  And then I was like, well, I'll just keep going with this
• 12:07
  moniker. And so from there, it turned
• 12:09
  into a newsletter, which is the identityjedi.com.
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  And so I send a newsletter out every week, usually on
• 12:14
  Wednesdays, which there's not going to be 1 today, setting a
• 12:16
  chance to write it. So it'll be coming tomorrow,
• 12:18
  but. But yeah, just kind of following
• 12:22
  following the the industry, right, the news and and what's
• 12:24
  going on and different takes that I have on things and
• 12:27
  explaining what these things are as is coming out because from
• 12:30
  from that time that I gave that talk to now, you know I feel
• 12:34
  like the the market has accelerated in the type of
• 12:36
  things that we're doing. Identity is so much more front
• 12:38
  and center now and so again we're getting more and more
• 12:40
  people coming into it. But we still don't do a very
• 12:43
  good job of just kind of explaining what all this stuff
• 12:44
  is. It's kind of one of these things
• 12:45
  like you're already in the clubhouse, so you know.
• 12:47
  So when you get somebody brand new coming in, they're like,
• 12:49
  well, what's this and what's that?
• 12:51
  What's the final like, what's Samuel?
• 12:53
  And, And we just talk about this stuff and throw it around like
• 12:56
  this is just what we know. And so I want to have a place
• 12:58
  where people could come if they knew identity that should learn
• 13:00
  if they're just, they love identity like like I do, like
• 13:03
  you guys do. Like here's actually things that
• 13:04
  I've found and I'd like to rent and write stuff and people like
• 13:07
  to read it. So I'm like, oh, here we go.
• 13:10
  Somebody brought that up because we were talking before we hit
• 13:12
  record about barbers and when I go to the Barber.
• 13:17
  You know, take one first of all, it takes a while to find a good
• 13:19
  one, and then once you have them, you don't let them go.
• 13:22
  Right. Ever.
• 13:23
  Yeah. And it's like, OK, one of the
• 13:25
  first questions that, you know, typically asks is what do you
• 13:28
  do? Oh, I work in consulting.
• 13:31
  OK Well, what kind of consultant?
• 13:32
  Oh, security. Well, you mean like for doors?
• 13:35
  No, for information security. I was like, oh, OK, well, what
• 13:38
  do you mean? It's like, OK, well, you know,
• 13:39
  like ID's and passwords and things like that.
• 13:41
  That's sort of the field that I'm in.
• 13:43
  Oh, OK. And then I feel like it's a
• 13:45
  courteous, oh, OK, like, I don't know what you just said, but
• 13:48
  sure, I'm just going to keep cutting your hair.
• 13:50
  How do you like, how do you tell people what you do?
• 13:53
  I don't man of mystery, I just. You just.
• 13:58
  Put your cloak over your head and then you just turn away and
• 14:00
  you just wave your fingers. This is not the Jedi you're
• 14:02
  looking for. Honestly like, so if I'm talking
• 14:06
  to somebody like outside of the energy, I just tell I was like,
• 14:08
  yeah, I work in the cyber screening space and I just
• 14:10
  because it just doesn't. Depending on their level of
• 14:13
  interest, right. If they really want to get into
• 14:15
  it, then, you know, I'll explain it and get into it.
• 14:18
  But most of the time I just say I'm in the cybersecurity space.
• 14:21
  Or if I get to deep into that, I was like, yeah, especially like
• 14:23
  getting access management. I was like, so, you know, like
• 14:25
  all the things that you do at work when you go and access your
• 14:28
  computer, these applications, stuff like that.
• 14:29
  I was like, yeah, well, behind the scenes there's a bunch of
• 14:32
  the needs that happen to make sure that you get that.
• 14:33
  I was like, I help people build systems that do that and people
• 14:36
  usually kind of get that and go okay cool.
• 14:38
  So. And we were talking a little bit
• 14:41
  about identifiers earlier and the the not harassment that took
• 14:44
  place of Ian, but you gave one of the best, like keynote things
• 14:51
  that I've seen on the stage in a long time.
• 14:54
  And my understanding is it was your first time doing that and I
• 14:57
  thought you killed it. What was it like being up there
• 15:00
  and for people who weren't there?
• 15:02
  Can you just kind of just a real brief synopsis of what your talk
• 15:05
  was about and then take me behind the scenes like?
• 15:08
  What was going? Through your head.
• 15:09
  Like, were you, like, ready? Were you, like, did you black
• 15:12
  out like Will Ferrell in old school answering the question,
• 15:15
  how did that go? Yeah.
• 15:17
  Well, first of all, thank you for that, man.
• 15:19
  That means a lot. I appreciate it.
• 15:21
  I was telling Ian I was like, it's the athletes that I've
• 15:25
  gotten from people. It means the most of me, from my
• 15:27
  peers, right, People who are actually in this industry.
• 15:29
  And that means a lot. It was my first keynote, but I
• 15:32
  mean, it wasn't my first time speaking.
• 15:34
  So I want to make sure these people are listening right.
• 15:36
  And I didn't just like, I'm going to come to speaker, let's
• 15:39
  go on the exact thing and go kill it.
• 15:41
  But it was my first keynote and you know, coming up to it, it
• 15:45
  was it was pretty nervous and I was more nervous than I than I
• 15:49
  usually in for speaking. The talk actually came together
• 15:52
  10:00 o'clock the night before. Like not like I had the slides
• 15:55
  and everything done like that. All that's was submitted, but
• 15:57
  like. You know, I'm not a big person.
• 15:59
  I don't, I don't practice a lot. Like, I'm not one of these
• 16:02
  people who'll tell you, oh, practice and do all this stuff,
• 16:03
  whatever. That's not my style.
• 16:05
  I'm much more of a conversational style.
• 16:07
  I'm much more of a storyteller. So I had this story of what I
• 16:10
  wanted to tell and how I wanted to set it up.
• 16:12
  It just wasn't flowing right. They didn't come together.
• 16:13
  Like I said, about 10:00, o'clock the night before.
• 16:16
  And I I had the 8:00 o'clock freaking teen outside the
• 16:19
  hungover slot. And I had the hangover slot
• 16:20
  because we're in Vegas at a conference, right?
• 16:22
  And of course, everybody's texting me, oh, come out, come
• 16:24
  out. And I'm like, Nope, I had to
• 16:25
  turn my phone off, fuck myself. And I was like, no.
• 16:27
  I was like, dude, mic check is like at 7.
• 16:29
  Like no, I'm not, I'm not going anywhere.
• 16:31
  So I get up that morning, go to mic check.
• 16:36
  And yeah, like once I kind of submitted to the final like
• 16:41
  notes the night before, I felt better about it.
• 16:44
  I was kind of walking through it on my phone back in the green
• 16:46
  room and just kind of taking everything in.
• 16:49
  And then it's funny like a week before I was talking to Ian
• 16:52
  about like, when I do give talk it, I I do black out it, it
• 16:55
  doesn't. Like, I don't.
• 16:56
  I couldn't tell you what happened on stage.
• 16:59
  I can tell you what I talked about because another talk.
• 17:00
  But I couldn't tell you like what happened on stage.
• 17:02
  Like as soon as I, as soon as Andy said it and like, they kind
• 17:06
  of raised up the lights and I walked out like that.
• 17:08
  That's it. That's all for mayor.
• 17:09
  It was just the next thing I remember is walking on stage and
• 17:11
  there's Ian giving me this huge big hug and telling me how much
• 17:15
  I killed it. And I was like, cool.
• 17:16
  I was like, I'm glad people liked it because I couldn't tell
• 17:19
  you what that guy just. Said.
• 17:21
  It was a lot of fun. It was really good.
• 17:23
  So when you went behind stage, it's Vegas where they're like.
• 17:26
  I don't know, like drinks flowing.
• 17:29
  We had like Sammy, you know, Sammy Davis.
• 17:32
  We had a whole bunch of different impersonators there.
• 17:35
  Like, what was, what was it like behind the scenes?
• 17:38
  Yeah, so I'd love to say that it was like big huge party back
• 17:42
  there. It wasn't, It was pretty again,
• 17:44
  early hangover slot like. So if I probably had like a
• 17:46
  later slot, you know, maybe the Rat Pack would have came by.
• 17:48
  But no, like backstage before me and the Green Room and my media
• 17:52
  team that I bought and then walking back off stage.
• 17:54
  It was literally was Ian in the next panel that was behind me.
• 17:56
  And then that was it, right? You know, just kind of walked
• 17:58
  off and took my headset and was like, yeah, great job and move.
• 18:01
  We got to get to the next thing. So it was very much kind of
• 18:04
  like, you know, kind of moving on to the next thing.
• 18:06
  But it was very, I knew it was special from the reaction that I
• 18:10
  got from everybody afterwards, like the rest of the day, just
• 18:12
  kind of coming up to me telling me how much they enjoyed it.
• 18:15
  And it's your earlier question of what it was about.
• 18:17
  The main premise was just looking at the future of
• 18:20
  Identity and Web Three and the promise that.
• 18:23
  Web three kind of brings to us and and the questions we have to
• 18:26
  kind of start asking and looking at what this means is we start
• 18:29
  to kind of develop this technology and that it's, you
• 18:32
  know, I believe it's a pivotal technology.
• 18:33
  And the fact that it's one of those things that really forces
• 18:36
  us to to look back at things that question the decisions
• 18:39
  we've made maybe 20 years ago And is this still the case if we
• 18:42
  build this new identity, if it's truly decentralized and
• 18:45
  connected, like how do we rethink some of these use cases
• 18:47
  that we've just known. This is how you do it for, for
• 18:49
  years now and some of the implications that it has right I
• 18:52
  touched on. You know what this means is we
• 18:54
  look at this technology, we're already starting to see some of
• 18:56
  it roll out a digital driver's license and then how it affects
• 19:00
  it. We've kind of created this
• 19:01
  technology term and access to it is kind of risen with it like we
• 19:05
  do. A lot of the technology that's
• 19:06
  talking about especially around these centralized identity is
• 19:09
  built around, you know, like Apple iPhones and Samsung phones
• 19:12
  and these things, these things are expensive.
• 19:14
  These are $1000, you know phones, right.
• 19:16
  And and we count ourselves very privileged in the fact that
• 19:18
  yeah, we can afford these, but the average person can.
• 19:20
  And so if we're, if we're looking to build.
• 19:23
  A new kind of wave of this quickly identity and and make
• 19:25
  this stuff more accessible. We also have to think about what
• 19:28
  kind of barriers of entry are we creating there right.
• 19:31
  Yes. It's it's not like I love my
• 19:32
  iPhone. I will never leave.
• 19:34
  I I can live through this thing. Right.
• 19:35
  I I love it. Right.
• 19:37
  And so but that's me, right. That's not like the average
• 19:40
  person. So we just need to we need to be
• 19:42
  aware of those things and make sure that you know this this is
• 19:44
  a chance for us to build a technology that truly is
• 19:47
  revolutionary and we just need to make sure that we're thinking
• 19:48
  about all of. It.
• 19:49
  Yeah, I think it's, you know, just in what you're talking
• 19:52
  about with doing the keynote, I would have been nervous as hell.
• 19:57
  There's no way I could have gotten through that.
• 19:59
  But you did a fantastic job. You also did EIC this year,
• 20:05
  right? You got up and did a speech
• 20:07
  there. Not this year, but I've done EIC
• 20:10
  in in years before, but not this past year.
• 20:13
  What was that like? Was that pretty cool?
• 20:15
  That was. It was fantastic and and the
• 20:19
  reason. So for two reasons.
• 20:20
  Number one, I mean I love talking about identity and at
• 20:22
  the time I was I was still at some point So me and Mike Kaiser
• 20:27
  who was the ivory to my Ebony, we used to always just be
• 20:32
  running to do an example. So we actually gave a talk
• 20:33
  together at EIC. But it was in Munich.
• 20:37
  It was a great time connected with people out there.
• 20:40
  I love the European identity community but it was special for
• 20:43
  me because I got to just take my mom.
• 20:45
  And that was the first time she had ever left the left the
• 20:47
  country. So took her to Germany.
• 20:50
  We went, got a chance to see some of the sites.
• 20:52
  Did a train ride out to Prague, like all this kind of stuff.
• 20:56
  And then she, I don't think she would want to come to the
• 20:58
  conference. So then she comes to the
• 21:00
  conference and she's like walking around and like learning
• 21:02
  different stuff about identity that she would have talked to
• 21:04
  like Pam and like hanging out with the women in identity.
• 21:06
  And it was just hilarious like, and my mom's like olding up to
• 21:09
  where like this. A lot of this stuff for her is
• 21:11
  just like this is. This is the sci-fi stuff, right,
• 21:14
  that they used to talk about. She's just saying, but she had a
• 21:16
  blast and it was great. And that she fell in love with
• 21:18
  European coffee to the point now where like I have to import like
• 21:21
  German coffee for her because, you know, apparently American
• 21:24
  coffee is horrible. I don't.
• 21:26
  I'm not a coffee drinker so I y'all taste like dirt to me, so
• 21:28
  oh. Man, that's that's rough.
• 21:32
  I know Jeff's in the same camp I'm from the camp of.
• 21:36
  By the way, I love this is one of the things I wanted to talk
• 21:38
  about in the like my prediction for the future is that Coke 0 or
• 21:43
  any kind of 0 soft drink goes off the charts because I think
• 21:47
  Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi. Anything with aspartame in it?
• 21:51
  Just, I feel like it kind of already has, though.
• 21:53
  I mean, you couldn't get Coke 0 during the pandemic.
• 21:56
  I mean, everyone has had it like it was.
• 21:58
  Yeah, but like from a restaurant, you're right.
• 22:00
  Like you go into a supermarket or grocery store, it's zero.
• 22:04
  But if you go into a restaurant, you order a Jack and Coke,
• 22:07
  they're like, well, are you say, do you have Coke?
• 22:09
  Zero. We have Diet Coke.
• 22:11
  It's like, that's not. Yeah, and then you put like the
• 22:13
  crossing. Get that away from me.
• 22:15
  Yeah. No, no, no.
• 22:16
  McDonald's has Coke Zero I discovered recently, so.
• 22:20
  Progress is being made in the soda industry, so thank you for
• 22:23
  that over. In humanity.
• 22:24
  In humanity. In humanity.
• 22:27
  So. David, any more conferences for
• 22:29
  you this year? No, that's it.
• 22:33
  I am. I'm tapped out this year.
• 22:35
  I thought about going to Octane, but you know what?
• 22:38
  It's a lot different going to these conferences.
• 22:40
  When you gotta, you gotta pick the budget for it.
• 22:43
  So I'm like, I'm good. Yeah, especially when they're
• 22:46
  like downtown San Fran and the hotel rooms are like 400 a
• 22:50
  night. Yeah.
• 22:52
  For pretty basic so, but man, you've got so much going on.
• 22:57
  We saw that you wrote a book recently.
• 23:00
  Want to know, you know, what's it called, what's it about, and
• 23:04
  then what made you write it? Because that's a lot of work.
• 23:09
  So the name of the book is the only one in the room.
• 23:12
  The unwritten rules of being black and tech and.
• 23:15
  What made me write it? I'll give you.
• 23:17
  I'll do the the short story of it because it is.
• 23:20
  It's a pretty long story. But I decided to write it right
• 23:24
  after I left Amazon. So I was at Amazon.
• 23:27
  I served 10 months at Amazon institution, I mean.
• 23:31
  I was served. Thank you for your service.
• 23:35
  I was. I was let out for good behavior
• 23:38
  and coming out of there I, you know there was a lot of things
• 23:42
  that. I I kind of saw both at Amazon
• 23:45
  and just in general that I was like you know what this is
• 23:49
  there's a there's a kind of dark underside detective and I don't
• 23:51
  think we talk about enough. And yeah there have been we've
• 23:56
  been having debates and discussions about diversity
• 23:58
  equity, inclusion and things of that nature and that's been
• 24:01
  okay. It's been progress I guess 0 to
• 24:04
  one is progress like to see more but it just kind of hate me
• 24:07
  coming after that that I was like hey this is.
• 24:10
  I think this is something that I that I really want to talk
• 24:12
  about. And I looked at like my
• 24:13
  experience and what my career had been like and the things
• 24:15
  that I have learned. And, you know, for me is the
• 24:18
  journey that I've been on. You know, I grew up in Los
• 24:21
  Angeles, just outside of Los Angeles, and then I kind of went
• 24:24
  to school in the inland, imperative suburbs.
• 24:25
  But at the time that I grew up, you know, statistics, you know,
• 24:29
  for, you know, people of, of my age group, like as a black male,
• 24:33
  I was supposed to be dead or in jail by the age of 17.
• 24:36
  That was that was a statistic I was like 67% likely like this is
• 24:40
  going to happen. Like it was very low statistics
• 24:41
  that anybody actually made it on did anything.
• 24:43
  And so that's something that just kind of stuck with me When
• 24:47
  I remember hearing that when I was younger and you know to kind
• 24:50
  of go from that to things that I've been able to accomplish.
• 24:52
  The stages I've spoken on countries I've been able to
• 24:55
  visit friends I've been able to do, the lifestyle I've been able
• 24:57
  to live looks like there's. It's been pretty cool and and
• 25:00
  there's I want to see more people you know like that to
• 25:04
  come into this this field but there's a lot of things that
• 25:06
  kind of people just don't tell you about that I I said okay if
• 25:09
  I could do it all over again. I went back in time and I
• 25:12
  grabbed my 19 year old self like what would I tell him and what I
• 25:15
  tell him to look out for. And that's kind of what led me
• 25:16
  to started writing some of this stuff down and it was it was a
• 25:20
  very interesting journey. I will say you know for me I I
• 25:23
  love to write. I love to write and read.
• 25:25
  Sorry Jim so. Writing the actual book wasn't
• 25:30
  wasn't the hard part. Like that actually kind of took
• 25:33
  maybe about three or four months.
• 25:35
  The whole process took me about three years.
• 25:37
  And a lot of that was just mental.
• 25:39
  Like, I'm gonna write a book like, what are people gonna
• 25:41
  think? Like, man, I'm not some super
• 25:42
  famous guy like this guy writing the book.
• 25:44
  And then like the title and the subject.
• 25:46
  I'm like, man, people are gonna get all crazy.
• 25:48
  I'm like, but I'm the type of person I'm very like.
• 25:50
  I'm always in front about everything.
• 25:51
  Let's let's if there's a problem, let's go tackle it
• 25:53
  together. And I think part of the problem
• 25:55
  why this thing still exists and we deal with all these issues
• 25:58
  because we don't want to talk about it and we want to kind of,
• 26:00
  you know, tiptoe around it and like, yeah, we want to be
• 26:03
  cognizant of everybody's feelings.
• 26:04
  But like, you've got to talk about things that put on the
• 26:05
  open, otherwise they'll never change.
• 26:07
  And so it was fighting a lot of that just kind of like, man, I
• 26:10
  don't know. And and and I I've got a lot.
• 26:13
  I've got all kinds of things multicultural all over the
• 26:15
  place. And so I knew that this book.
• 26:17
  Could kind of One could inspire a lot of people, which it has
• 26:19
  done, and I've loved the support of them from that.
• 26:21
  But I also wanted to be very clear that I didn't want to
• 26:24
  write it in like to make anybody else feel bad or or or hurt
• 26:27
  anybody's feelings or pissing anybody off.
• 26:28
  But I had to get to the point where I was like, well, that's
• 26:30
  okay because I'm talking to a specific person.
• 26:32
  And so just in how I crafted the writing and the stories that I
• 26:35
  was telling to make sure the story was come across, that
• 26:37
  really kind of took a while. A lot of the editing process and
• 26:39
  they're just kind of getting through, you know, imposter
• 26:41
  syndrome and like do I really want to do this?
• 26:43
  Finally just said, you know what?
• 26:44
  I've. Than everything else.
• 26:45
  Why not? We'll see what happens.
• 26:47
  Yeah, I mean, it seems like you you've wrote something about
• 26:50
  your lived experience. I think it's one of those things
• 26:53
  probably you're probably the most qualified person in the
• 26:57
  world when you're writing about your own lived experience,
• 27:00
  right? Yeah.
• 27:02
  Question for you who should read the book.
• 27:06
  Come on, I'm an author. Whatever, everybody should read.
• 27:09
  The book is for everyone. But OK, but specifically, right?
• 27:14
  The marketing term coming up right The avatar that I created
• 27:18
  this book for all my marketing out there will will love that.
• 27:22
  The ICP if you will. But I I literally wrote this for
• 27:26
  as a love letter and all sense of the word to a young you know
• 27:31
  you know black professional looking to get into the
• 27:33
  technical space. Like somebody who's just now
• 27:35
  coming out of college and maybe get into college and saying hey,
• 27:37
  I kind of wanted them in tech but I don't know because I don't
• 27:40
  really see a lot of people that look like me which.
• 27:43
  That is a very real thing. And then that applies to
• 27:45
  anybody. Like if anybody looks at
• 27:46
  something and you don't see anything that you can relate to,
• 27:49
  it makes it even harder for you to think that you can do that.
• 27:51
  And so specifically, that's who I aimed it at.
• 27:53
  Like, hey, like this is, this is what I've learned and this is
• 27:56
  what I've seen in news and things, right.
• 27:58
  So that specifically is what I wrote it for.
• 28:00
  But in that case, a lot of the things that I talk about, the
• 28:03
  stories that I tell, like, I got a lot of feedback and people was
• 28:06
  like, yeah, this can apply to anything.
• 28:07
  I was like, yeah, I know. Right.
• 28:09
  It there's the secret to a lot of this stuff is hey, when you
• 28:12
  really look at it, we're all the same and we kind of want the
• 28:15
  same things. It's like we just have to get
• 28:17
  outside of ourselves for just enough to realize that hey, when
• 28:20
  we get past everything else and we just connect on a human human
• 28:23
  basis, wow, Like a lot of the stuff applies to all of us.
• 28:26
  But there's a lot of things that just unspoken there.
• 28:28
  So short story is I would say young, black, professional
• 28:31
  looking at good new tactics. It's really it's for them.
• 28:33
  But outside of that anybody could take something from that
• 28:36
  and read it and. I wouldn't.
• 28:37
  I would encourage like either managers or executives who are
• 28:40
  looking at it and say hey, we're struggling with diversity here
• 28:42
  to read it and understand like again this is 1 person's
• 28:45
  viewpoint, but it kind of gives you some kind of purview into
• 28:49
  like okay. Maybe This is why.
• 28:51
  Maybe some some of my black employees, maybe they feel this
• 28:53
  way okay. Maybe we can start working with
• 28:55
  our DII to start addressing some of these things and see if we
• 28:58
  can make this easier. So in that case, that's what I'm
• 29:00
  saying. I would say anybody read it.
• 29:01
  If you've just been curious, someone understand.
• 29:03
  I think it's a great one, but. We're going to pick your brain.
• 29:05
  We have David Lee, Identity, Jedi, and heck, we all love Star
• 29:10
  Trek. So make sense.
• 29:13
  That's that's our subscriber should.
• 29:16
  I. Cancel subscription I mean.
• 29:19
  Don't disconnect them. I might hang out myself and I'm
• 29:22
  the host. I'm trying to be funny.
• 29:25
  All right. Anyway, so I TDR we knew.
• 29:28
  You're hot on that. Explain what is ITDR and what
• 29:32
  excites you about it? All right.
• 29:34
  So Star Wars, first of all because that come on now we got
• 29:38
  to make sure we track that here come the track keys anyway.
• 29:42
  But I TDR, identity, threat detection and response, I am
• 29:48
  hugely high and excited about this.
• 29:49
  And and there's the main reason why is that when you break down
• 29:54
  what that means, right. So identity threat detection and
• 29:56
  response okay. So it's this growing kind of
• 29:59
  market space of looking at. Threats that that apply to
• 30:02
  identities and how do we detect those threats and respond to it.
• 30:06
  And it's still kind of early on in its quote UN quote market
• 30:09
  phases. We've got a couple of different
• 30:11
  companies out there that are looking at this area optimized
• 30:14
  or we just get recently acquired that are all looking at this.
• 30:18
  And the the concept behind it which gets me excited is that we
• 30:21
  we finally started taking a step in identity where if you have to
• 30:24
  if you take a step back and say when identity quote UN quote
• 30:27
  kind of first started, we looked at it and said it was a huge
• 30:29
  administration problem, right. The administrators were
• 30:32
  screaming, listen, I can't tell you how many accounts I create.
• 30:35
  I just don't create the accounts.
• 30:36
  I don't know where they are. I don't know who has access.
• 30:37
  What are you talking about? I don't know.
• 30:40
  And so when we started this, we just said, okay, we just need to
• 30:43
  get a handle around this. Let's let's create and automate
• 30:47
  things around this administrative burden of
• 30:48
  understanding where all my identities are.
• 30:50
  What do they have access to? What are things that are driving
• 30:53
  that access? And how do we manage this
• 30:55
  process of making sure we understand how we're giving
• 30:57
  access to everybody and what that does.
• 31:00
  That's been the last. But seniors, great, We've done
• 31:01
  that. Cool.
• 31:03
  But we also wanted to start saying, hey, I'm going to use
• 31:05
  part of security and that we've given talks.
• 31:07
  Like if we look at the kill chain, if Identity Access
• 31:09
  Management Control was involved, then a lot of the security
• 31:13
  preachers would have been stopped.
• 31:15
  We could have prevented them, but this whole time, identities
• 31:17
  just kind of been on the background.
• 31:18
  It's like, hey, we're just a submission of the thing.
• 31:20
  We're we're not actively in the fight.
• 31:22
  We're just like, hey, well, we did everything we're supposed to
• 31:25
  do and set it up the right way. And after that we're out of it.
• 31:29
  I TDR kind of moves identity more towards that security
• 31:32
  operations standpoint. It's like Okay, great.
• 31:34
  Well, here are these threats that are coming in and So what
• 31:37
  do we do with that? We can see that Okay out of your
• 31:40
  100 users, 67 of them don't have MFA configured and we know how
• 31:43
  important MFA is. So what do we do about that Or
• 31:46
  we're detecting things that are like maybe misconfiguration in
• 31:48
  your a WS environments, Okay, these persons shouldn't have
• 31:51
  this much access. What do we do without that And
• 31:53
  more specifically what I would like to see is this as this kind
• 31:57
  of continues to go is. What are we seeing around the
• 32:00
  threatening identity like just like security thinks about okay.
• 32:04
  I'm going to pretend like whatever I did nothing worked.
• 32:06
  How do I stop you from getting it?
• 32:08
  How do I prevent that zero day when you get into, when you
• 32:11
  break into an application from spreading, how do I protect
• 32:13
  that? The same thing we have to do
• 32:15
  with identity Okay. So day one it starts.
• 32:17
  We we put everything in place but let's say something didn't
• 32:20
  work the right way. Some guy did get in and now they
• 32:22
  want to go and get access to you know the admin accounts are
• 32:25
  creating things. What do we do to make sure that
• 32:27
  doesn't happen? And that to me is a much more
• 32:31
  active conversation and involvement.
• 32:33
  We've got all this great data in context within Identity Systems
• 32:36
  and we have all these controls that we can now start to
• 32:39
  automate and make sure they're a part of it.
• 32:40
  Because if you look at it just simply as simple as taking your
• 32:43
  IM system, right. So let's, I'll be very close.
• 32:46
  Let's look at your SSO system. So you've got everything set up
• 32:48
  for SSO, let's connect that to your IGA system and say okay, we
• 32:52
  know how we're going to provision things and what they
• 32:54
  need to be and. We had a separation of duties
• 32:56
  and policies. Great.
• 32:57
  And that matches my SSO. Now tie that with your IGM
• 33:00
  system and then sorry your Pam system for when somebody wants
• 33:03
  to go get access to a privilege access account.
• 33:05
  All three of those are talking and connected.
• 33:07
  Then at any given time if anything gets out of whack, the
• 33:10
  three of those are kind of working in in conjunction to
• 33:12
  make sure that doesn't happen. That's really just if you look
• 33:15
  at the core, but that's ITDR right okay like here's how we're
• 33:18
  going to apply these things to make sure responded to the
• 33:21
  threat so. That to me, and I've always
• 33:23
  wanted identity to have a much more active say in security
• 33:26
  conversations. And so that's what excites me
• 33:28
  about it. It's the type of conversations
• 33:30
  and what you're bringing to identity teams.
• 33:32
  And as they're now talking to security teams and saying, hey,
• 33:34
  we're sending you not only telemetry data, but there's
• 33:36
  things that we're seeing that we can start doing.
• 33:38
  How can we work with you as you guys are tracking down incidents
• 33:42
  and you're stopping things from coming in.
• 33:44
  Let's make sure we're sharing with you how that's connected to
• 33:45
  any identity, right? So if somebody gets breaching,
• 33:47
  gets to the server, hey, we can tell you, here's everybody that
• 33:50
  has access to the server, how they have access to these groups
• 33:53
  and here's how the provisions ain't no problem, we can do
• 33:55
  responses on our side to make sure that, hey, even though we
• 33:58
  didn't stop them getting known and they got to the database
• 34:00
  server, like we can really quickly mitigate like how far
• 34:03
  they can get. So I feel like and tell me if
• 34:05
  this is fair, but I've said this before in previous episodes that
• 34:08
  I feel like I TDR is sort of UBA.
• 34:12
  UEBA, the user behavior analysis, User and entity
• 34:15
  behavior analysis of like a decade ago and is that one, is
• 34:21
  that fair And two why do you think that is?
• 34:23
  Is it because we have more maturity when it comes to
• 34:27
  identity within enterprises where thou that data is actually
• 34:30
  available and now we can actually do stuff?
• 34:31
  With it. So I would say it's the.
• 34:34
  The only thing that would different with you sort of say,
• 34:36
  I would say it's the concept of what we wanted to do with UEVA
• 34:38
  from a decade ago, right. The whole reason why we wanted
• 34:41
  to understand activity of the user so we could know and have a
• 34:44
  better understanding of okay, here's this access.
• 34:46
  But like what are you really doing with it, right?
• 34:49
  Because with Identity so far, we knew how to model the access and
• 34:51
  say here you go, okay, great, you're going to have these
• 34:53
  things. What does that mean?
• 34:54
  What do you do with it? Like how how much do you access
• 34:57
  this? And when you log into it, how
• 34:58
  long are you logging in? And so that was what we're
• 35:00
  trying to do with UVA and I. The, the second part of the
• 35:05
  answer is like why, why now and why didn't it work then?
• 35:08
  I don't think it's the data that we have now is the same amount
• 35:11
  of data we had back then. I think connectivity is a little
• 35:13
  better, right. More standards is coming in and
• 35:15
  so we can connect, it's easier to connect to these different
• 35:18
  applications and kind of send data across.
• 35:19
  I think that has improved. But I also think honestly think
• 35:22
  it's a mindset from a maturity standpoint, a customer has
• 35:24
  gotten a little bit more advanced and smarter and
• 35:27
  understanding without it's right for identity for the longest
• 35:30
  time. We were dragging the customer to
• 35:32
  understand what the value was and kind of getting them there
• 35:35
  and all they wanted to do was pass their audits and make sure
• 35:38
  people could single song like I'm done, right.
• 35:40
  They just they didn't really want to dig in and see the value
• 35:43
  of all the other things. I think we we passed that mark.
• 35:46
  We're only dragging the customer.
• 35:47
  The customer gets it, the got it.
• 35:48
  And we understand yes my audits, but like also there's other
• 35:52
  things that I can be doing here Okay and now that they're ready
• 35:55
  to kind of have those conversations and customers are
• 35:57
  leading those conversations. Now I think that's why it's,
• 35:59
  it's starting to hit it home a little bit more, right, because
• 36:03
  we can kind of use this and say like we can actually start
• 36:05
  putting this into action and doing some things.
• 36:07
  And so yeah, I I think it's going to be interesting to see
• 36:10
  how those, some of those, you know UEBA kind of vendors from
• 36:13
  the past like I'm really surprised they haven't jumped
• 36:16
  all over this, right, because they they kind of already have
• 36:18
  set up the interesting things to do.
• 36:21
  So we'll it'll be interesting to see if we start to hear them
• 36:23
  talk about this in the next, you know coming months.
• 36:26
  You know, I can't. I've said this before on past
• 36:28
  episodes, and I think this is the next major thing in
• 36:33
  identity, because we always thought of identity as who has
• 36:37
  access to what. But I think it's then and what
• 36:40
  are they doing with it? And you see this in the Kim
• 36:43
  space, right, where it's like we're trying to remove any
• 36:47
  unnecessary privileges, so we get to at least privilege.
• 36:50
  So give an account these roles. Have they used those roles?
• 36:54
  If not? Remove those roles.
• 36:57
  I think it's, if you can apply that to your entire identity
• 37:01
  infrastructure that takes a ton of data and a ton of ability to
• 37:05
  process data. I don't think we're there yet.
• 37:09
  But to me, like that was the promise of the UBA.
• 37:12
  I just think that it was based on a reality that isn't reality,
• 37:18
  right. We don't have all those logs
• 37:20
  available. We can't process big data in
• 37:22
  that way with the tools we have. So let's pivot, because I want
• 37:25
  to talk about what's happening in this, this old piece of
• 37:29
  technology called Azure Active Directory.
• 37:32
  We've got this new thing called Microsoft Entra.
• 37:35
  I mean, for, you know, for veterans of the industry who
• 37:37
  have been around since Azure Active Directory was around,
• 37:40
  we've now got this thing called Microsoft Entra.
• 37:42
  What is Microsoft doing with Entra?
• 37:47
  So what I hope they're doing is. Finally figuring out that, hey,
• 37:55
  we're Microsoft and we've got every single connection point to
• 38:01
  kind of create this nice comprehensive solution for truly
• 38:07
  managing access within the environment, like from something
• 38:09
  else, like we can kind of do it all.
• 38:12
  I think they're trying to lean into that.
• 38:16
  The reason I'm hesitant is because it's this isn't the
• 38:19
  first time that they've done that.
• 38:21
  Like, this is like the fifth or sixth time we've seen them kind
• 38:24
  of, like get something rebranded, hey, and we're like,
• 38:26
  oh wait, Microsoft's finally getting it.
• 38:28
  And then we're like, no, right, No.
• 38:29
  Someone is like a template. Right.
• 38:31
  Find and replace old name, put new name.
• 38:33
  There's like no new functionality.
• 38:34
  So for people who aren't aware, like Microsoft just recently
• 38:37
  announced as of time recording that now there's this thing
• 38:40
  called Microsoft Entra and the idea is that it's basically just
• 38:43
  a name change. For Azure Active Directory,
• 38:46
  which OK, fine, you know, whatever.
• 38:49
  I can understand the confusion. When you say AD, the next
• 38:52
  question is, well, what do you mean is it you're on Prime AD or
• 38:54
  Azure AD, OK, that'll help, but AD is AD and now you've got
• 38:59
  Microsoft Entra. So is that me?
• 39:02
  And now I think of is that Windows me the not well.
• 39:04
  Received. Windows that was out there.
• 39:07
  So yeah, I mean, right now it seems to me as I kind of, you
• 39:10
  know, I don't have any inside information, but.
• 39:12
  I read articles just like everyone else does and it just
• 39:16
  seems like a name change and that's it.
• 39:18
  So it's a name change, but also it is unfolding the work that
• 39:24
  they've been doing with their verifiable credential work that
• 39:29
  they've been doing, a lot of things they've been doing around
• 39:31
  like their activity protection services that has always kind of
• 39:34
  been there, but they're trying to highlight that a little bit
• 39:36
  more. So and that's why I'm hesitating
• 39:39
  cuz, yeah. They, they made this big press
• 39:40
  release and it's like, oh, it's now this and it's a name chain.
• 39:42
  It's like, all right, but you didn't.
• 39:43
  And now we're including all these things like.
• 39:45
  So the stuff that you already had that's kind of been there,
• 39:48
  you're not including. It's all intra great what I'm
• 39:51
  waiting to see next and it could be out there.
• 39:53
  So if this is out there, who are Microsoft lovers out there?
• 39:56
  And it's like there's this blog right now, we'll talk about, I'm
• 39:58
  sorry, I haven't already yet, but there could be data out
• 40:01
  there. What I wanted to see from there
• 40:02
  was like okay, This is what we see within the Microsoft Intra,
• 40:06
  you know, network, whatever they're going to call it.
• 40:08
  Like, here's how you connect all these dots and make this happen.
• 40:10
  But they've had it for such a long time, right?
• 40:13
  So I'm cautiously optimistic that maybe we'll see some of
• 40:16
  that coming out. I do know that it's done enough,
• 40:19
  right, that I've talked to a couple of friends of mine who
• 40:22
  are also consultants and kind of talking to customers where it's
• 40:25
  causing customers to do a pause and say, hey, well, let's maybe
• 40:28
  in this side box, let's see what Microsoft has to do there.
• 40:31
  Because I mean. They've always had the most
• 40:33
  compelling use case to make it to anybody, right?
• 40:35
  It's like okay. Well, why go buy anything when I
• 40:38
  can? I got outlook, I use the, I got
• 40:40
  a DI got all this stuff. I'm just going to stay right
• 40:42
  here. And if you tell me that I can
• 40:43
  package all that into an E5 or E6 or whatever license, I mean
• 40:47
  procurement just got easier like manual just got easier like
• 40:50
  everything just right there. And I know a couple of
• 40:52
  organizations that are that are just there die, they're going to
• 40:54
  do that. But it's just Microsoft was
• 40:57
  never delivered on the rest of the features, right.
• 40:59
  They just they've never really either.
• 41:02
  I don't wanna say they didn't care about identity, but it
• 41:04
  didn't seem like it. They just they don't seem to dig
• 41:07
  to dive deep into identity. They just say hey e-mail will do
• 41:10
  protection will do. This will be great cool like.
• 41:13
  They. Tried governance for 10 years
• 41:15
  and just can't get right. They have good solutions and
• 41:18
  it's like most things, right? Once you follow the sweet spot
• 41:19
  of Microsoft, typically that's where the cracks start to show
• 41:22
  through and it's a very captive audience.
• 41:25
  It's the same question that I always get as well.
• 41:27
  Why would you buy something else if you're looking at
• 41:29
  authentication and you're already a 365 customer?
• 41:32
  You're already paying for it. Probably quick side note,
• 41:35
  because I know we're going to talk about AI a little bit
• 41:37
  later, but I don't know if you saw recently the pricing that
• 41:39
  they've announced for Microsoft Copilot.
• 41:41
  They want to basically double the price of licensing.
• 41:44
  It's another $30 per user per month to use all the AI features
• 41:48
  they've been developing. So this is quickly going to
• 41:51
  become a very expensive space and I'm sure you know they'll
• 41:53
  make money off it just like anything else.
• 41:55
  But yeah, it is not cheap to operate in the cloud.
• 41:59
  Interesting. Yeah.
• 42:01
  I was just wondering like if Microsoft can deliver on the
• 42:05
  governance. I I agree with everything David
• 42:07
  said, everything you said, Jeff, if they do deliver, do they run
• 42:11
  the table? I think the answer is probably
• 42:13
  no, they don't probably run the table.
• 42:15
  But I think would be great though is if the features that
• 42:18
  make up governance now become available to the lower middle
• 42:22
  market small businesses that basically can't afford identity
• 42:27
  governance at this point. And I wonder if it's like air
• 42:29
  conditioning, right? Used to be a luxury item and
• 42:31
  then it got cheaper and cheaper and came down like, you know, I,
• 42:35
  my first car had roll windows, You know, now when you say I'm
• 42:38
  going to roll my window down and was like, you're really just
• 42:40
  pushing a button. But hey, we're old school.
• 42:42
  We know what we're talking about, right?
• 42:43
  So maybe at some point, yeah, there is that kind of trickle
• 42:46
  down. Let's move on because I want to
• 42:48
  talk about Thanos, I mean, to my Bravo and all of the identity
• 42:54
  companies that they are collecting into their Infinity
• 42:57
  Gauntlet. What?
• 42:59
  What do you think? Like what's going on with Tomo
• 43:01
  Bravo? Is it truly an Infinity Gauntlet
• 43:03
  situation or do you see it more of a Pokémon situation where
• 43:07
  they have a bunch? Of you guys talking about, I
• 43:09
  don't even know what these things are.
• 43:11
  Nerds talking, Jim, just just go back on you what?
• 43:14
  Podcast Am I on? What do you think, David?
• 43:19
  So I'm going with my I'm going with my, my, my initial gut
• 43:24
  instinct, which I think it's much more.
• 43:26
  Of a Danos Infinity Gauntlet thing.
• 43:29
  Although I've I've made the case that it could be just a Pokémon
• 43:34
  of a I just want to catch. I just wanted I'm just going to
• 43:36
  grab up all of these and get as as much get them as efficient
• 43:40
  and as profitable as possible and I'll see which one wins,
• 43:43
  right? And guess what?
• 43:44
  Like I've got all of them and the time they bought them I
• 43:47
  bought them at a discount. So either way I kind of win.
• 43:50
  But I really think though and and the reason why I think it's
• 43:53
  more than the Infinity Gauntlet is because.
• 43:56
  Of an interview that they put out on a podcast was it was I'm
• 44:01
  going to it was one of the main partners and I I don't remember
• 44:03
  saying well I must say wrong and he talked about their whole
• 44:07
  process with sell Point and why they came back and bought sell
• 44:08
  point again and how much they learned about the identity
• 44:13
  security market from working with sell Point.
• 44:14
  Sell Point was their first venture into that market.
• 44:17
  It was super successful. Then they took him out IPO.
• 44:20
  And so they wanted, they saw like growth again, they want to
• 44:23
  come back in. And so listen, investors don't
• 44:27
  make money by not being greedy like you know what I mean?
• 44:30
  So it's like they're looking at this and going, OK, well, how we
• 44:33
  did it, oh boy, man, rest of these are kind of on sale right
• 44:36
  now. Let's go gobble them up and do
• 44:38
  something again. And and now they're much more
• 44:40
  attuned to where the market is going.
• 44:41
  So the shortage of the way I think they're doing is I do
• 44:44
  think they're going to look at this and and have this different
• 44:46
  technology and pay attention to over the next five years where's
• 44:49
  this market going to go. And I've got enough IP that A,
• 44:52
  if I need to put together my quote, UN quote Infinity dollar
• 44:55
  and create an identity security platform, I've got all the
• 44:58
  pieces to do it right. It'll be ugly like.
• 45:02
  And I mean ugly from like how they're going to have to do it
• 45:03
  like okay, we're going to chop this and have chop this and have
• 45:06
  you go over here like it's not going to be pretty what what
• 45:09
  comes out of that thing from what they're going to have to
• 45:11
  cut to go do it. But they have the assets, they
• 45:13
  actually go do it. And so I just think that when we
• 45:17
  look at these PE firms, right, you're talking.
• 45:20
  At minimum, 7 to 10X is what they're looking for.
• 45:22
  Like that's the only return that I can see for them doing that.
• 45:26
  I don't see them taking these companies and holding them and
• 45:29
  go, we're just going to turn in the cash cows or just hold them
• 45:32
  okay. But that's not what you do like
• 45:34
  you look for big returns, right. So I do think at some point
• 45:37
  we're going to start seeing everybody to the opinion sell
• 45:41
  point that kind of makes the most sense because their
• 45:43
  customer bases are similar. But I think what they're waiting
• 45:46
  to see is how this next kind of technology term of what happens
• 45:49
  over the next two years and where they need to augment that
• 45:52
  with, right. I don't know, I haven't.
• 45:53
  I stopped following for a while. I know there's some things with
• 45:55
  Ford Rock that I haven't quite closed yet, but at some point
• 45:58
  that'll close what they're missing from there.
• 46:01
  And and and this is what I would say you, you definitely know
• 46:04
  they're going towards Infinity outlet, look at their next
• 46:07
  purchase, right, if they purchase something either in.
• 46:12
  Let's say cuz they get orchestration with with Ping and
• 46:14
  Da Vinci and they get some Ford like if they look at something
• 46:17
  more towards the security space, something like a a Kim
• 46:20
  management or even like they go by one of these like smaller
• 46:23
  IGDR companies. If you see a purchase of their
• 46:26
  that, that's typically and that's exactly where they're
• 46:28
  going, right? Like so it's their next kind of
• 46:30
  one or two purchases for me that are going to like really tip the
• 46:33
  head of where they're going. Because they've made this
• 46:35
  person, they've kind of done silent, which I mean, look, they
• 46:37
  just spent what, what was it like, $14 billion?
• 46:39
  I'm like, all right, look, there's a lot of money.
• 46:41
  You bought a lot of things. Go play with your toys.
• 46:44
  But there is they're building something.
• 46:47
  I just, it just doesn't. I can't see them.
• 46:49
  Not like what? Why do you get into P/E?
• 46:52
  How do you get it to nuts off all of it if you don't comply
• 46:54
  with something and say, I can take this and then put it out
• 46:56
  and tell it is that much more? That's the only possible path I
• 46:59
  see. Interesting conversation.
• 47:01
  I I didn't know what an Infinity Gauntlet was or Athano's, but I
• 47:06
  kind of figured out what you guys are talking about.
• 47:08
  It's like. We'll get off your don't worry
• 47:10
  about it. That's right.
• 47:11
  They're going to get, they're going to get their money because
• 47:14
  that my analogy was they bought 3 super cars and they could kind
• 47:19
  of like take the best of each car and like build one really
• 47:22
  super, super car or. They could just keep the three
• 47:26
  cars, wait a little while and sell them for more money than
• 47:29
  they paid. Either way, they probably win.
• 47:34
  So I don't think nobody's going to get on on a podcast and say,
• 47:39
  like, hey, I'm from home row and this is what we're doing.
• 47:42
  So we're all just sitting here like, you know, thinking about
• 47:44
  like, okay, what might we do if we were playing with billions of
• 47:47
  dollars of identity companies? I'd probably challenge another
• 47:51
  billionaire to a wrestling match or page matches.
• 47:53
  That's just me. Hey, that's just me.
• 47:55
  I don't know, you know? So, so David, do you have a
• 47:58
  winner in that in that UFC fight between Zuck and Elon?
• 48:04
  Look, man, I I do. And it and it and it changed
• 48:08
  just recently. And I'm gonna tell you what
• 48:09
  changed. What did you saw that picture?
• 48:11
  Yeah buddy, cuz like Israel, I can never pronounce his last
• 48:15
  name like. That dude's no joke, right?
• 48:17
  Like, so if you were, and it could have just been a promotion
• 48:21
  picture. But like, dude, I'm looking at
• 48:23
  like, dude shredding. Like, if you did any kind of
• 48:26
  training at all with these guys, like, just kept up with them for
• 48:29
  a practice round. I'm like, dude, that's.
• 48:33
  And Elon, I'm with you, man. His workout routine is reaching
• 48:37
  for the next, so I. I think that exactly right.
• 48:41
  You see, like the stats of Elon's taller, he's kind of got
• 48:44
  a little bit of attitude, but Zack just looks like a fighter.
• 48:48
  I I didn't think that. Like when you see him with his
• 48:50
  clothes on, he just looks like Joe Average.
• 48:53
  But man, that guy's ready to fight.
• 48:57
  Next question. So you know, thinking of the IGA
• 49:01
  space seems pretty clear. Yeah, sailplane and savient,
• 49:06
  they're wanting to. Who in your mind is #3?
• 49:10
  And obviously we had the whole Microsoft conversation, so don't
• 49:14
  we sure answer by using them. But who do you think might shake
• 49:17
  it up? So I I don't think there's a
• 49:20
  clear number three. I think once, once after you
• 49:22
  leave those two, it comes down to like you know, customer size,
• 49:26
  profits and things like that and there's a number of them that
• 49:28
  you can look at. What I will say is like who I
• 49:30
  think has the potential to really shake it up to be honest
• 49:32
  is is Octa and I don't know if they will or not.
• 49:37
  But they but they have a chance. Their IGA product has been, it's
• 49:40
  been interesting and also like almost two years ago now and I
• 49:43
  still haven't really seen much from it.
• 49:46
  But their ability of what they're going to be able to do
• 49:49
  from a perspective of not only from with their IGA, their
• 49:54
  access certifications. They'll they'll automatically
• 49:55
  have like activity and usage data.
• 49:57
  Like they'll be able to give you a much deeper understanding of
• 50:00
  not only what Access is, but how it's being used and kind of more
• 50:03
  closer real time. And I think it's going to be a
• 50:05
  game changer for a lot of people.
• 50:08
  I I like some kind of up and comers.
• 50:11
  Visa is a company that assembled across a couple of weeks ago.
• 50:14
  I kind of really like what they're doing and how they're
• 50:16
  going after it. Zilla security what's the I can
• 50:24
  I can see the other company actually it's going to kill me
• 50:27
  because we talk about it all the time.
• 50:28
  There's another one you would test there we go and you would
• 50:31
  test is another one like there's these nice little kind of small.
• 50:35
  Smaller companies that are that are a lot more focused and
• 50:37
  they're focusing on making sure that from an IGA perspective
• 50:41
  kind of have me focus on access search.
• 50:43
  So I'm like okay, there's more to it than that.
• 50:44
  But that's that's the hairiest part.
• 50:47
  With an IGA product like if you ever implemented it like those
• 50:50
  are things that just take forever.
• 50:52
  They're fact, they're really focused on automating that and
• 50:54
  making that easier. So I think you've got a handful
• 50:55
  of players there once you pass like save it that you can tend
• 50:58
  to choose from, you kind of pull together.
• 51:00
  But I if I had to put my money on something, I was like I just
• 51:03
  got the biggest chance to really kind of shake up that market
• 51:06
  because they can quickly give you kind of like what you know a
• 51:10
  Gardner kind of calls a converged I AM right.
• 51:13
  They've got enough pieces to quickly put that together and
• 51:15
  get you a good offering for that.
• 51:18
  And they don't like, it's like they don't have to do much to
• 51:21
  get it there right, like their IGA product doesn't have to be
• 51:24
  stellar, it just has to be functional.
• 51:28
  And they've got everything else they're going to make it happen.
• 51:30
  So it's so it's surprising me to see that that just hasn't taken
• 51:33
  off. So I'm, I'm watching that one.
• 51:37
  We're kind of made it graph to see how they come out.
• 51:39
  That's what's, yeah, that's a really cool answer and it's
• 51:42
  interesting. I was bouncing back to the
• 51:45
  Cooper Coal IGA, what they call it, the market Compass from last
• 51:50
  year and they didn't even list doctor, which I thought, you
• 51:53
  know, if there was a gap in their list, that's it because.
• 51:57
  I agree with you. They've been at the the IGA
• 52:01
  project for a while and they could really shake up the game.
• 52:05
  So yeah, I'd like that answer. Last thing, which of these
• 52:09
  technologies are you the hottest on Kim, which we talked about is
• 52:14
  like Pam 2.0 around here, Identity verification or
• 52:18
  decentralized identity? Decentralized identity by far
• 52:22
  like I think it's it's got the potential to completely reshape.
• 52:26
  How we look at identity and then how we look at identity, how we
• 52:30
  use it from a daytoday basis, from workforce like all the way
• 52:33
  down to like everyday person like it's just got a huge range
• 52:39
  of impact that it can have. And so to me it's it's the one
• 52:43
  thing that I, I follow and check up on the most because it's
• 52:46
  it's, it's interesting to me it's it's really that cool kind
• 52:51
  of scifi thing that you know I won't say everybody but like me
• 52:54
  when I would look at some knowledge and stuff like that
• 52:55
  when we see these. You know look at Minority
• 52:58
  Report, right. The people used to trip out
• 53:00
  about that and the things you can do and like these kind of
• 53:03
  advertising that you would see that would target people and
• 53:05
  things of that nature and we kind of saw them American.
• 53:07
  But like I used to always think about Minority Minority Report
• 53:10
  like how how far it seemed from a technical logical advancement.
• 53:14
  I look at these centralized, I did it in some of the use cases
• 53:16
  we were talking about like and the fact that we basically walk
• 53:19
  around with supercomputers in our pocket now like it's.
• 53:23
  It really it has the chance to make like the biggest impact,
• 53:26
  right? All the way down to like how we,
• 53:29
  how we purchase food, how we, you know, get transit.
• 53:32
  Like you can do all of this stuff in carrier identity with
• 53:34
  you and really protect it like that.
• 53:36
  I don't know that that's game changing, right?
• 53:38
  And if we can get it down to where it's, we could get it to a
• 53:42
  device that anybody can get access to and carry, right?
• 53:46
  Now what does that look like, right?
• 53:47
  Like, what are those interactions look like?
• 53:49
  So it's it's both interesting and scary at the same time,
• 53:52
  right? Like I do see a world where that
• 53:54
  kind of gets away from us, but by far to me, that's that's the
• 53:57
  most one that I'm interested. In whenever I think about the
• 54:00
  decentralized identity, my mind goes to the mobile driver's
• 54:03
  licenses and I think to myself if 10 years from now we're still
• 54:08
  carrying around plastic cards. Or paper passports or whatever
• 54:12
  like that. It's going to be really
• 54:14
  disappointing. I'm not saying that in 10 years
• 54:16
  will be fully realized where every credential is completely
• 54:20
  electronic 20 years from now. I think so.
• 54:23
  But you know I it is kind of hard to see the vision of going
• 54:28
  from where we are today to that 10 year vision.
• 54:32
  But I feel like it's got, it's just got to happen.
• 54:35
  I'm with you. I think it does too.
• 54:38
  It's how do we do it responsibly?
• 54:40
  Right. Like we I'm going to be, I'm
• 54:42
  going to be very careful because like this topic gets into so
• 54:47
  many different things, right. Like I'll just say this, the US
• 54:50
  doesn't have a great history when it comes to the tracking of
• 54:54
  individuals, right? Like you start going down that
• 54:58
  history path, they're like, oh this is that's not good and and
• 55:01
  so that's the question. It's like yes, we want to be
• 55:04
  able to have that from the convenience but to really do
• 55:06
  that that means. We've got to get a device that
• 55:08
  we can, something that we can now get to anybody and everybody
• 55:11
  that can have some kind of credential on it, right?
• 55:14
  And we've got to do that responsibly so everybody can
• 55:16
  have it and then give them the ability to share what data they
• 55:19
  want. But as we've seen, it's the
• 55:22
  question what happens on the other side of that, How much
• 55:24
  then is other people able to track and use that data?
• 55:27
  And that's where we got to be really careful because we've
• 55:29
  already seen with, you know, the whole Facebook, Cambridge
• 55:32
  scandal and everything we've seen over the last, you know,
• 55:34
  decade. When there's a regulation around
• 55:36
  data, like, we will just do stupid things with it because we
• 55:40
  can, right? And so that's the biggest thing
• 55:43
  about it. I think that's going to, that's
• 55:45
  going to, that's going to add to the length of time of what it
• 55:48
  takes to get there is how do we do this responsibly?
• 55:50
  We we want people to have it. And yes, it it makes it not only
• 55:54
  convenient, but it's more efficient and it's sometimes
• 55:56
  like safer, right? And that's awesome.
• 56:00
  But how do we make sure we do that responsibly?
• 56:02
  How do we think about the things?
• 56:03
  Just lessons that we've already learned, right?
• 56:05
  I always go back to the Jurassic Park, you know, right?
• 56:07
  Like we all suffer the same thing.
• 56:09
  We're quick to see whether we can something, but we never
• 56:12
  started to think. Should we do this right and
• 56:15
  that? Is an awesome comment and I
• 56:17
  think, you know, we could sit here and debate because that
• 56:20
  that's a rabbit hole. That is a rabbit hole.
• 56:24
  Well, let's go ahead and and wrap up with a I because it
• 56:27
  wouldn't be an episode without some a I at the center talk.
• 56:30
  Where do you see a I taking? You know the identity space.
• 56:34
  I think it I think it helps transforming to its next kind of
• 56:39
  state. I had this conversations at RSAI
• 56:44
  think with so I I got to back up with this concept when I first
• 56:48
  saw what everything what chat GP Jack's chat GPD was doing and I
• 56:53
  saw these LOAS and generative a I I didn't get excited about oh
• 56:58
  chat GP can write A blog for me say no no what this tells me is
• 57:00
  that. The underlying components of it,
• 57:03
  right? To be able to build the data
• 57:05
  sets, to train models, have gotten to a point where you can
• 57:08
  actually develop applications on top of it quickly.
• 57:11
  I was like, that means we've made a huge progression there.
• 57:14
  That's awesome, because now that means I can take these things
• 57:16
  and start to put them into other things and use them in different
• 57:19
  ways, which we've seen since then.
• 57:20
  Like everything literally has a I in it now.
• 57:22
  Freaking Google Dash. Just roll something out right,
• 57:25
  Like so. Having said that.
• 57:27
  Where I see AI coming in is that we can, we can start to look at
• 57:30
  that and imply that there's a lot of things that we do in
• 57:32
  identity that are just inefficient because they're
• 57:35
  administrative heavy, that can easily be automated, that you
• 57:37
  can give to a training model and say, oh, this is how this works,
• 57:41
  I know how to do this, no problem, take it there.
• 57:43
  So what I see is things like access reviews I see actually
• 57:48
  use being the thing of the past, I think between activity data
• 57:52
  using a. An, A, I model to understand
• 57:55
  access patterns and relationships that you could
• 57:58
  certify in real time, like what Access somebody has, turn around
• 58:02
  with like a digital signature to sign it.
• 58:05
  And you can even pass out to otters and go like, yeah, I
• 58:07
  don't need to run an Access view.
• 58:08
  I can literally tell you here is what the Access that people have
• 58:13
  today, here's what they're approved to have, and here's how
• 58:15
  we're making sure they always kind of have that.
• 58:17
  And so I think there's going to be certain things like that that
• 58:19
  just get completely wiped out, like you no longer need to do
• 58:21
  them. So that's what I look at for AI
• 58:24
  as we start to look at this and learn and understand more about
• 58:26
  the data and what we can do with these data and build these
• 58:28
  models. I see things like that just kind
• 58:31
  of completely transforming those features and making them
• 58:34
  something that is not. It's an afterthought, It's like
• 58:36
  it's just kind of something we do.
• 58:38
  Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, it's exciting to see the
• 58:41
  advances. I'm bullish on it, but we've got
• 58:44
  to make sure that we do it right and.
• 58:47
  We've talked about, like the statement.
• 58:48
  I remember who it was. But it's like, you know, now
• 58:50
  with 50% more a I, right. This identity tool, it's like,
• 58:52
  OK, well, well, you know, great, cool.
• 58:55
  You know, my definition of it changed when we saw things like
• 58:57
  ChatGPT come out, was like, wow. And now I use it a lot.
• 59:02
  I mean, it's a great starting point, but it also lies a lot.
• 59:05
  You know, it hallucinates whatever, you know, whatever
• 59:07
  term you want to use for providing, you know, not factual
• 59:12
  data, right. Those are the things that I
• 59:15
  think we need to keep an eye out for.
• 59:16
  But it'll get better. That's the that's the bright
• 59:18
  side, right? This is the worst that it will
• 59:20
  ever be, and it's pretty darn good.
• 59:23
  But, and here's the also thing about it, right?
• 59:25
  This is, to me, this is the this is brought to life.
• 59:30
  In saying that, we always say garbage in, garbage out.
• 59:33
  You're literally seeing it, right?
• 59:34
  So people complain about, oh does this or whatever it was
• 59:36
  like, it's trained on this like it's only going to come up with
• 59:40
  the data that you give it. So if you want to complain, oh,
• 59:42
  it's biased because data is biased.
• 59:44
  Oh, it's this because it's the data you gave it.
• 59:46
  Like, it's not going to magically make things better.
• 59:49
  It's just when you look at machine learning in general,
• 59:51
  it's like it can consume mass amounts of data faster than the
• 59:56
  human brain. That's the whole purpose.
• 59:57
  Great. All right, cool.
• 59:59
  Do all this for me and then show me the patterns, right.
• 1:00:01
  If you don't like the patterns that it shows you, it's because
• 1:00:03
  you got to go look at the data that you're giving it.
• 1:00:05
  So to your point about that, it will get better because as we
• 1:00:07
  start to, we want to use and do more, we're going to have to
• 1:00:09
  learn okay. How do we?
• 1:00:11
  We need to make sure that we're getting the data that we want
• 1:00:14
  and we're getting more about asking our questions about the
• 1:00:16
  data, doing better, about making sure that our our systems are
• 1:00:19
  actually creating the data that we want, right?
• 1:00:21
  Another rabbit that we can get into.
• 1:00:22
  But I'll just say with this, like something as specific as
• 1:00:25
  like looking at your identity system, like what are the audit
• 1:00:27
  records that you're writing? Most of the sounds are very
• 1:00:30
  customizable and nobody touches them, right?
• 1:00:32
  So like, you could literally say okay.
• 1:00:34
  Well, if I can customize my audit records and say here's the
• 1:00:36
  things I want to audit every single time.
• 1:00:38
  Now I'm giving it much more data that guess what?
• 1:00:40
  Then I can start building patterns off of and doing
• 1:00:42
  models. So it's things like that.
• 1:00:44
  As we start to learn and understand it, that then it will
• 1:00:46
  start to get better. We just have to, you know, dig
• 1:00:48
  it and do what? All right, well, we've got David
• 1:00:51
  Lee, the identity in Jedi, so we're gonna end on a lightsaber
• 1:00:53
  note. So what I wanna understand from
• 1:00:57
  you, David, is what color is your identity, Jedi lightsaber.
• 1:01:03
  OK, so. And I hope it's not the same as
• 1:01:05
  mine. We'll find out.
• 1:01:08
  Mine is white and I got to get the story of why it's right.
• 1:01:13
  This is for all the Star Wars in there.
• 1:01:14
  So Jim, you're not going to like this.
• 1:01:15
  I'm sorry. Before it, it was purple, right?
• 1:01:18
  Because I loved Ms. Swindoo. He was like one of my favorite
• 1:01:22
  characters. I was like, yes, that is that is
• 1:01:24
  the color that I will go for it. And then I finally got into
• 1:01:28
  Rebels and like I watched all of that in.
• 1:01:33
  When I saw kind of a soca's timeline, I agreed so much with
• 1:01:36
  the soca that I was like, Nope, that is kind of where I would
• 1:01:39
  go. White lightsaber all the way.
• 1:01:42
  All right, So white is kind of traditionally seen as like
• 1:01:45
  purity, peace, positivity, neutrality, kind of that Gray
• 1:01:50
  Jedi potential, right? I think more on the side of.
• 1:01:55
  You know, not seeking conflict. You're right.
• 1:01:57
  That kind of thing. So I'm surprised that you said
• 1:01:59
  white, because I thought for sure you gonna be seeing me,
• 1:02:01
  because mine is definitely purple.
• 1:02:03
  I I am a Gray Jedi, like through and through.
• 1:02:05
  I will pull from the light side, the dark side.
• 1:02:08
  It doesn't matter. I'm going at it.
• 1:02:11
  Whatever I need to do to get the job done.
• 1:02:12
  Not seeking it out. So I'm not, you know, that that
• 1:02:14
  side of it. But definitely, yeah, Mace
• 1:02:17
  Windu. And then, of course, you know
• 1:02:19
  Samuel Jackson. I mean, come on, man.
• 1:02:21
  That's the way to go. Jim, what's your color of
• 1:02:24
  lightsaber? What color was Yoda?
• 1:02:28
  Yoda was green, I think. Yeah, is that.
• 1:02:31
  Yeah, it's a it's a growth safety harmony.
• 1:02:34
  I've got a little with CHEAT SHEET, I mean.
• 1:02:35
  I like Yoda. So here's the question I had
• 1:02:38
  because I saw someone wearing a tshirt and there's that, I don't
• 1:02:43
  know animal or person that looks like a baby Yoda.
• 1:02:46
  Yeah. Is that baby Yoda?
• 1:02:49
  It's. Groku.
• 1:02:51
  Yeah. Is that the same person?
• 1:02:52
  It's the same what race or creatures or whatever species.
• 1:02:56
  That's what I was looking for, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:57
  Is that a Jedi we? Don't know yet, yeah.
• 1:03:01
  They're definitely force sensitive.
• 1:03:03
  The midichlorians are going crazy on that kid I.
• 1:03:08
  Don't know. Jim doesn't even know what
• 1:03:09
  questions to ask. He's like.
• 1:03:13
  Well, just pick a color. Like what was the card again?
• 1:03:17
  He just makes it so that's all he does.
• 1:03:19
  I'm going to go. I got to go Yoda.
• 1:03:21
  I go green. All right.
• 1:03:22
  Growth. Safety, Harmony.
• 1:03:23
  All right, all right. This has been a fun
• 1:03:25
  conversation. David, thank you so much for
• 1:03:27
  joining us. We're going to have a whole
• 1:03:28
  bunch of links in our show notes, you know, for you, for
• 1:03:31
  people to connect with you on LinkedIn, we'll have a link to
• 1:03:33
  your book, which just came out a month ago, which is very
• 1:03:36
  exciting. Good times.
• 1:03:37
  The only one in the room, the unwritten rules of being black
• 1:03:40
  and tech. So definitely check that out.
• 1:03:42
  And of course, the Identity Jedi website.
• 1:03:45
  Sign up for the newsletter. It's cool.
• 1:03:46
  I dig it. I like the style.
• 1:03:48
  It's totally up my speed. So well done.
• 1:03:49
  Congratulations. Hopefully you'll come back and
• 1:03:52
  join us. Hopefully we will have you come
• 1:03:56
  live on a show when we're next time we're at a conference
• 1:03:58
  together or something like that, and maybe Ian will assault you
• 1:04:03
  while you're on the microphone. Next time, just to make it even.
• 1:04:07
  Make it fair. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:04:09
  Well, you know, that's that's, you know, fair balance to the
• 1:04:12
  force, right? All that kind of good stuff.
• 1:04:14
  All right, enough Star Star Wars stuff.
• 1:04:16
  We're going to leave it there for this week.
• 1:04:17
  Don't forget to check out our discount code for Authenticate
• 1:04:21
  ID AC15 podcast. Get you 15% off.
• 1:04:24
  Hopefully we'll see a lot of people at Authenticate Friendly
• 1:04:27
  Faces hopefully see a lot of people friendly faces at
• 1:04:30
  Identity Week America also coming up And yeah, we're on the
• 1:04:34
  web, identitythecenter.com. On Twitter IDAC Podcast Mastodon
• 1:04:39
  IDAC podcast at infosec dot exchange.
• 1:04:43
  Still hate the names and the way that works, but whatever.
• 1:04:46
  Connect with us on LinkedIn. Looking for ideas, for show
• 1:04:48
  notes, for I mean for for for future shows.
• 1:04:50
  Questions, right? Things like that.
• 1:04:52
  And connect with David. What I saw today was that David
• 1:04:55
  and I have like 180. Contacts in common.
• 1:04:59
  So yeah, you had. Me beat by almost.
• 1:05:00
  No, I think I have like 111 or something like that.
• 1:05:02
  So we know a lot of the same people or we accept every invite
• 1:05:05
  that comes our way and we don't really filter out whatever it
• 1:05:08
  is. One of the two, Yeah, we'll go
• 1:05:11
  in there like subscribe, share with a friend, share with an
• 1:05:14
  enemy, don't care as long as they're listening.
• 1:05:15
  This all matters to us. So thanks, David, so much for
• 1:05:18
  your time, Jim. Thanks for your time.
• 1:05:21
  And we'll talk with everyone in the next one.
• 1:05:24
  You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
• 1:05:28
  We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
• 1:05:32
  review and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
• 1:05:35
  website at identity@thecenter.com and find
• 1:05:39
  us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. See you next time on Identity at
• 1:05:47
  the Center.