Latest / philly has heART / The Intersection of Neuroscience and Art feat. Isabella Bobrow and Dr. Vasiliki Meletaki

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The Intersection of Neuroscience and Art feat. Isabella Bobrow and Dr. Vasiliki Meletaki · philly has heART

0:15
I'm great. We had an amazing weekend. Oh, it
0:18
was so great. I need to throw out a big thank
0:22
you to everyone who attended the Emerging Collectors
0:25
Night at the Print Center. Can I quickly shout
0:29
out those who stood in the Venn diagram of the
0:31
Print Center and Bridget Meyer Gallery? Oh, yes,
0:34
please. All right, here we go. Alexa from Pi
0:36
Gallery, Dominique Samarco, and Brooke Lanier.
0:40
Those last two are independent artists. Check
0:44
them out on the pod. Yeah, all of them, past
0:46
podcast guests. It was so great. It's so good
0:51
to see them in the wild. It was insane. Alexa's
0:54
about to leave for Art Basel the morning after.
0:58
Correct. She still stopped in. be on a plane
1:02
at 6 .30 in the morning. Yes. To look out some
1:05
cool art to your guys next year. Maybe. Maybe.
1:09
We're manifesting it. Yes. My husband and I went
1:12
to the fancy ticketed night at the Prince Center
1:14
and then we got to come back to that. Yes. But
1:18
then we linked up with yourself and John and
1:22
two more of your friends. Yes. Pat and Kristen.
1:25
Pat and Kristen. And then We saw Brian Sanders'
1:31
Junk present Urban Scuba. A showcase. There was
1:36
several segments. One involving a hammock. Yep.
1:42
One involving a window pane. One involving cellophane
1:47
swimming, in quotes. One involving a two -dimension
1:51
pool. One involving a bucket and nearly caused
1:56
me to... Internal anxiety. Oh, my God. One involving
2:01
a coat rack, an ensemble with a bunch of doors,
2:05
one with a ladder, and one with four lights.
2:10
Yeah. What was your favorite? Which one stands
2:13
out to you? I loved... The cellophane swimming.
2:19
That was good. I mean... Even when the cellophane
2:22
wasn't reacting in a way that I think they wanted
2:25
it to, it was still interesting because it's
2:28
reacting to the elements and to conditions. Right,
2:32
but you were brought into a new space with that
2:37
art. I felt that they were swimming in a pool.
2:41
Yeah. And it was just made of junk. It's just
2:46
plastic wrap and air. Yeah. Just a couple of
2:51
fans. Lighting. And they transformed the audience.
2:57
From the stage to the pool deck. Yeah. It felt
3:00
like we were underwater looking up at people
3:03
doing the breaststroke. So cool. So cool. And
3:07
I have to admit, guys, I did not know what I
3:10
was getting myself into. This was your first
3:13
Brian Sanders introduction. Yes. And even farther
3:16
from that, my husband had no idea what I got
3:19
us into. Yes. Yes. I did the same to John. Worth
3:24
it. Yes. Do more of that. I want you to be, I
3:27
want the element of surprise to be part of the
3:29
art that you're experiencing. I think there's
3:31
also room for us to bring on people that are
3:34
less conventional artists. 100%. We just, it's
3:41
tough to find them if you don't know where to
3:44
find them. Oh. Maybe? Yes. Yes. And it's... Hard
3:51
to find people that are consistently doing this
3:55
over and over again while continuing to get backed
3:58
by funders to do it. You know, Brian has been
4:02
in the game for over 30 decades. Yeah. Like he
4:06
mentioned the first show in like 92, 1992 guys.
4:11
And so, you know, he has been around the block
4:15
and has been able to continuously create weird,
4:19
but. immersive art. It's been great just in the
4:24
short time that I've seen him in different iterations,
4:27
his growth and his ability to like kind of recreate.
4:32
How many times have you seen his? This was probably
4:34
the fourth show of his that I've been able to
4:37
see. He mostly did things maybe around, like,
4:40
the holiday time, or he would do something, like,
4:43
spooky scary. Ooh. Yeah, which was really neat.
4:46
Let's go back to the Print Center's fundraiser,
4:49
and let's talk about bidding, Mr. Paddle number
4:52
42. Oh, my gosh. How did you know my 42 number?
4:57
I looked at what I knew you bid on, and it said
5:00
highest bidder, number 42. Yes. I was like, I
5:03
think that's his bid. Talk about an amazing opportunity.
5:07
Amazing. I mean, to take an artist that we've
5:09
spoken with on the pod and then be able to bid
5:14
and buy his art. The money all went to the print
5:20
center. Yes. To benefit them for their hundredth
5:23
and tenth anniversary. And the party, the fancy
5:25
pants party was great. You know how there's the
5:28
monitor when you first walk up to the second
5:30
flight. Yeah. And there was a monitor installed
5:34
on the first floor as well. It ran a slideshow
5:39
of each piece and it let you know where the bidding
5:42
was. Oh, wow. So you could kind of keep tabs.
5:45
And listen. I would have bought anything I bid
5:48
on. Maybe put bids down that I would be okay
5:54
if I didn't get it. Yeah. This is going to make
5:57
it more attractive to somebody else. Yeah. And
6:01
I'm going to put a bid down, and then I'm going
6:03
to walk away. I started bidding on Lot 63, Ron
6:08
Tarver, Dogwood Study No. 1, 2006, which I was
6:13
outbid on. In the last minutes, and I lost track
6:16
of the auction. I won Lot 71, the Christine Walensky
6:23
Untitled 2025. It's like a graphite. On paper?
6:28
Mm -hmm. I won Lot 90, the Fleischer Art Memorial
6:31
gift certificate. Nice. And I was outbid on 93
6:36
Rescue Spa facial gift certificate. I impulsively
6:42
drove up the price on Untitled 2003, the lot
6:46
number 43 from Richard Polsky. And what did you
6:51
buy? I don't think you shared. I did not share.
6:54
I won... The winning bid for John Joyce's piece,
7:01
Ian. The Barber. I told John Joyce several weeks
7:08
ago that you were going to bid on that once I
7:10
saw that it was available. I was like, I'm not
7:13
going to tell him I told you. Let's just wait
7:15
and see. Yes. It was so good. I'm so happy. I
7:21
can't wait to put it on the wall. After we sat
7:23
down for dinner. After the Print Center event
7:27
of ours. Yeah. You literally said, OK, I need
7:31
to register and put a bid in right now. Yes.
7:34
Yeah. Felt so inspired. And even more after he
7:39
speaks about his work. In the palladium process.
7:43
Correct. Yeah. Correct. It's so cool and different.
7:46
And you could put that thing in the sun. Yes.
7:48
And it won't even matter. It'll stay like that
7:51
forever and ever. Forever and ever. Okay, so
7:54
speaking of the Print Center Emerging Collectors
7:56
Night, we're about to be joined in conversation
7:58
by two podcast guests who are also in attendance
8:03
there. So guys, stick around. On to the conversation.
8:19
This is Robert Marsh, and you're listening to
8:21
Philly Has Heart Podcast. In this podcast, we
8:24
sit down with artists, gallerists, educators,
8:27
curators, and other creatives who comprise the
8:29
Philadelphia art world to discuss upcoming performances,
8:33
exhibits, and other events and initiatives that
8:36
are not to be missed. The art scene in Philadelphia
8:39
is so rich that it can seem daunting. Consider
8:42
this your weekend cultural recommendation. With
8:45
me always is my producer, Lucinda Degerland.
8:47
Hello, hello. And today we have Vasiliki and
8:51
Bella. Amazing scientists. I want to start by
8:56
thanking Girls Like Horror. All of us were able
9:00
to go and see the Philadelphia Ballet through
9:03
that partnership. Can you, or one, start by sharing
9:06
what your journey was like? How did you get to
9:09
the science of art, be it dance or architecture?
9:14
The Girls Like Horror thing is so fun because
9:16
I was actually at the first screening because
9:19
I have been friends with JP and Christina for
9:23
years now. and didn't really consider myself
9:27
a girl who liked horror all that much until I
9:30
got more into it, and now it's part of what I
9:33
study and what I'm going to continue to study.
9:35
I love it. My journey has been interdisciplinary,
9:40
like a lot of people in the lab. I studied neuroscience
9:43
and art history and architecture in undergrad.
9:46
Just because I couldn't choose anything. Take
9:50
a wide breath here. I was like, this combination
9:53
of things covers everything I'm interested in.
9:56
And then the pandemic in my senior year of college,
10:01
I was able to... connect with scientists online
10:05
and go to all these Zoom lectures. And I found
10:08
out about the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics.
10:10
So that was my first post -college job. I moved
10:13
out here to Philadelphia from California to work
10:16
with Anjan Chatterjee and all of the other scientists.
10:20
A really perfect, perfect intersection of my
10:24
interests. Yes, definitely. First, very happy
10:29
to be here. I met Girls Like Horror through Bella.
10:33
Basically, she just told me, I'm going to this
10:35
Bella performance with some of my friends, so
10:37
you're going to come. I don't really watch many
10:40
horror movies. I'm a neuroscientist, and I also
10:44
work at the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics.
10:47
I also have a kind of non -linear background,
10:51
like the journey. I'm originally from Greece
10:55
so I studied my undergrad in Greece in sociology
10:58
and then I moved to the UK where I lived for
11:01
five years and I studied psychology for my master's.
11:06
I learned about neuroscience so I started working
11:10
on it, neuroscience creativity and I did my PhD
11:16
in London on dance. I am not a professional dancer
11:21
but i always liked dance and i liked neuroscience
11:25
so i tried to find a way that i can combine both
11:31
into one so i i found my phd advisor who does
11:37
neuroscience and dance so i did my phd with her
11:40
and after that i met our current advisor as in
11:46
saturday through the different collaborations
11:48
and conferences. I moved to Philly to come to
11:52
the lab and I've been working in the lab for
11:55
three years and I have some dance projects on
12:00
the side but my main job here is on architecture
12:04
and the aesthetics of architecture, how we perceive
12:08
the built environment, how our body acts to it
12:12
and potential well -being. Benefits that we might
12:16
have from the built environment and in nature.
12:19
Wow, that's incredible. Amazing. I love that.
12:23
I work in the built environment. And one thing
12:27
to know about this field is that there are not
12:30
very many of us. As you can imagine, the science
12:34
of aesthetics is about 100 years old. And there
12:40
are maybe a dozen. labs in the world that have
12:44
it as their primary focus. Some people are approaching
12:47
the subject tangentially or occasionally but
12:51
in the United States here in Philly is like the
12:55
place to be studying this. That's why it attracts
12:59
scholars from all over the world. Yes, that's
13:01
incredible. And also what a culturally rich city
13:05
for to be located. I mean, can you imagine if
13:09
it were in Omaha? It would be different. But
13:14
you have the architecture and you have the numerous
13:18
dance companies. Yeah, we do our project in so
13:22
many different places. Like normally you do your
13:26
studies in the lab. So people come to the university
13:30
to do their studies. Here we can do studies in
13:34
museums, in the street, because we have all those
13:37
murals. So there are many ways that you can study
13:41
what we study. And especially in Philly, there
13:44
are so many options. And usually people are very
13:47
open to collaborate with scientists, which is
13:51
also great. What is an aesthetic experience and
13:55
how can you study it? A study experience is when
14:00
is your personal encounter with an object just
14:04
for the sake of it in a way. You might appreciate
14:10
the object for its beauty, for the emotions it
14:13
creates to you. It's more than focusing on...
14:17
the utility of an object, but the personal experience
14:21
that you have with it. It can be an object, it
14:25
can be a performance, for some people it's sports,
14:28
it really varies. In the lab we have a cognitive
14:33
model of how we approach the aesthetic experience,
14:37
which has the sensory motor aspects of it, so
14:41
how we move, if it's about a space or a... big
14:46
painting, let's say, how you move around it to
14:49
see the different parts of it, what you see,
14:51
if there is a smell, if there is a tactile sensation,
14:54
the knowledge and meaning that comes with it,
14:58
what you know about the object, your personal
15:02
experiences, and the emotional evaluation, how
15:06
do you feel about it. Right. It's still pretty
15:09
debated in the field whether aesthetic experiences
15:12
really are a class of their own and whether aesthetic
15:16
emotions are really like a real class because
15:21
you have all sorts of other reward experiences
15:24
and maybe the brain is just processing things
15:26
as a reward the defining thing about aesthetics
15:31
is that it's not necessary for survival right
15:35
so why do we care anyways it's like a luxury
15:39
But why do we feel so compelled to make and engage
15:42
with works throughout all of human history? There's
15:45
got to be some special sauce there. 100%. And
15:48
is it that when you're studying this, are you
15:53
monitoring the brainwaves? Are you monitoring
15:57
the space as like... a piece of art are you monitoring
16:02
someone walking into a room and what they're
16:05
doing within that room or is it also based on
16:07
like surveys of an experience by that individual
16:11
afterwards because we are scientists and because
16:14
the field is unconventional perhaps We control
16:20
everything. So all of those things, we administer
16:23
surveys to people. We use physiological trackers
16:28
to measure how people's heart rate is changing,
16:31
how the electrical conductance of their skin
16:34
is changing. And we occasionally do MRI studies
16:37
where we're looking at if we show someone a specific
16:41
picture and we're asking them to be thinking
16:44
about a specific question in relation to it.
16:47
how did blood flow change in the brain? Where
16:50
is blood moving to? And that tells you what systems
16:53
are engaged at a particular moment and how they
16:57
relate to other systems at rest. We actually
17:02
have our MRI data processing right now. The computers
17:08
have been crunching for weeks and we're going
17:12
to have results so soon from that latest study.
17:14
Wow. Wow. What was the latest, if you can talk
17:18
about it? It was in the framework of the model
17:21
Vasiliki mentioned. So how does our brain integrate
17:25
emotional information, conceptual high -level
17:29
information, and basic sensory features? And
17:32
we're hypothesizing that if you tell someone
17:38
to focus on a specific aspect of that, so...
17:43
only focus on the sensory details and the physical
17:46
properties of the piece, that you're going to
17:49
see a smaller subset of the brain engaged than
17:53
if you ask them about what new knowledge have
17:57
you gained from the piece. So we're looking at
18:00
how these different regions and networks connect
18:05
to each other to provide an aesthetic experience.
18:10
The more interesting thing is how can we tease
18:13
them apart and figure out the ingredients. Is
18:16
that a fair representation? Yes, yeah. In a paradigm
18:21
like this, in order to get information from the
18:24
brain, we conduct the study in a really unnatural
18:29
environment. So we cannot do it in a museum,
18:32
but in a loud fMRI scanner. People wear headphones
18:40
and earplugs underground in a hostel facility.
18:45
You cannot collect the same information if you're
18:47
in a museum. So it's always a balance of what
18:50
kind of information we can collect and under
18:54
what environments. So in another study that we're
18:57
conducting right now with Bela, We have a collaboration
19:02
with a substance abuse rehabilitation clinic
19:05
in Maryland, Outpost Wellness. And there, for
19:09
example, our question is more about the built
19:13
environment and how nature -inspired elements
19:17
or so -called biophilic design has the potential
19:22
to improve the well -being of... people using
19:26
the space. So there we have refresh rooms and
19:30
people use the room and we collect their heart
19:35
rate and other physiological measures to see
19:39
how their body reacts to the space while watching
19:43
videos with music and they have blankets and
19:47
things like this that can get cozy. And we ask
19:50
them how they feel before and after. So this
19:53
is another example of one of the many studies
19:58
that we have in the lab, just to give you a different,
20:02
like an idea of a different environment that
20:05
we might be running studies. Yeah, and when we
20:07
have Penn undergrads come into the lab, they'll
20:09
answer surveys for hours. Because they are used
20:13
to that environment. When we work with people
20:17
who are in the first few days of sobriety and
20:20
their nervous systems are really running haywire,
20:24
we have to rely a lot more on the physiology
20:26
because people are not able to sit down and tell
20:30
us in excruciating detail how they feel. They
20:33
might not know. How about the work that you did
20:37
with dance experience? Can you share a little
20:40
bit about that? The main project that I have
20:43
worked on for my PhD was how dancers process
20:50
emotions of other people in their brain and whether
20:55
this is different, not better, or worse, different
20:58
than people with no prior dance experience. And
21:02
we saw that... There were some differences in
21:08
the brain on this. So we had people come in the
21:11
lab, we put the EEG cap with all the gel, and
21:14
people saw faces with different emotions. And
21:18
we were collecting their brain waves. Right.
21:21
And their heart rate as well. And we were able
21:25
to see these differences. They also feel differently
21:27
with their body. They have usually better awareness
21:31
of their body signals. different body parts.
21:36
If they feel pain, they have better understanding
21:40
of the type of pain and where it is. So I think
21:44
this is fascinating how we can use dancers as
21:49
a model of cognition to better understand our
21:52
brains and how now we, with other colleagues
21:58
in dance, we try to show how dance can be used
22:03
as a vehicle to understand cognition so how you
22:07
move in the space well how about testing how
22:10
dancers move into the space for example how do
22:13
you train to move with other people around you
22:15
in your personal space this is just some of the
22:18
examples that we have been working on recently
22:21
also i took a different approach and i worked
22:27
with a choreographer in new york who wanted to
22:32
use the results of my PhD and create a dance
22:36
performance out of it. So this is a different
22:40
collaboration that we can have with artists,
22:43
how you can use neuroscience as inspiration and
22:48
a different way to communicate science, maybe
22:52
in a more loose way to an audience that maybe...
22:58
wouldn't get this information otherwise right
23:00
right i think it's i think it's so fascinating
23:03
to especially to some of the dancers um maybe
23:08
even at the ballet to have a better awareness
23:10
of their bodies but then also their minds and
23:13
how they interact with the environment that they're
23:19
put in right at one point they're in a Studio
23:23
with all of their peers with their boss with
23:29
music free -flowing as well in a big white room
23:33
with mirrors everywhere to then Pushed into a
23:37
stage in which the audience might go dark And
23:42
you can't see all of the faces or how many eyes
23:46
you have on you and how that can totally change
23:50
that dancer's experience from that one environment
23:53
to the next. I mean, even if you go to a dance
23:57
class and they ask you to move the other way,
24:01
not face the mirrors anymore, but face it. Oh,
24:05
it's a disaster. Yeah. The first few tries are...
24:10
complete disaster because you're not used to
24:13
this side of the room. Right, right. You've totally
24:17
changed the environment just by taking away the
24:19
mirrors. Yes. Oh, I love that. I love it. Can
24:24
you tell us about the aesthetics of architecture?
24:28
It's a really hot field right now, really developing.
24:32
One of the ideas our lab is interested in is
24:36
this one that Our dwellings have changed a lot
24:42
in the last few hundred years. We now live in
24:44
cities. We now live in concrete and glass buildings,
24:48
mostly alone. And our brains have not changed
24:53
in the same amount of time from when we used
24:56
to live as hunter -gatherers in villages and
24:59
smaller communities with more permeable dwellings.
25:03
And so that's why we're interested. in the hypothesis
25:08
that biophilic -inspired spaces can perhaps restore
25:14
attention, perhaps improve cognition or reduce
25:19
stress. Those are some of the things that we're
25:22
testing in our current work. And designers have
25:25
this intuition, right? That adding nature -inspired
25:30
elements to a space will make people feel more
25:33
comfortable. The science is far behind that intuition,
25:38
so we're working on those questions to hopefully
25:41
inform design that's more human -oriented. Wow.
25:45
I work in the education field, and you can see
25:51
the behavior in children when there's a classroom
25:55
that is set up or... orderly um and with intention
26:01
um creating a more organized environment for
26:07
the children versus chaos in the environment
26:12
that is created there are student art all over
26:17
the wall there is chaos in the little library
26:21
nook in the corner and how those environments
26:25
can then change the way that children act. and
26:28
learn in one environment from one classroom to
26:32
another because one school could have 10 different
26:35
classrooms of different grades and each one of
26:38
those teachers are bringing their own environment
26:40
to there and so how do you find the best environment
26:44
to then be able to educate kids in and that might
26:47
change from kindergarten classroom to an eighth
26:50
grade classroom and so that's fascinating how
26:54
you can look at architecture and how architecture
26:57
can then change the way that we act and behave
27:00
and and think think yeah think grow develop yeah
27:04
yeah it's uh it's interesting you brought education
27:07
because the past years well a few decades ago
27:13
there was this effort to have everything no destruction
27:17
and i think that's quite depriving at the end
27:21
there's sensory motor deprivation sensory deprivation
27:24
and now they start to bring more color and more
27:29
tactile elements so we have three concepts that
27:33
we kind of work with in the lab for architecture
27:36
coherence fascination and hominess you want the
27:40
place to be coherent when you study if that's
27:44
what works for you but maybe it's too boring,
27:48
or maybe it doesn't feel comfortable for you.
27:51
There is always a trade -off, and no space will
27:55
work for everybody. We often have architects
27:57
asking for cheat codes, and we're like, we're
28:01
sorry, we don't have that. We can't really...
28:05
What is the best building for the brain? That's
28:09
your possible question. It doesn't exist. You
28:12
always have to... to work with the needs of the
28:18
inhabitants so the best way is to ask them and
28:22
it doesn't matter really if you ask them after
28:24
everything is built because then maybe you cannot
28:27
change it anymore so we try to understand how
28:31
people think and move into the space even navigation
28:36
especially navigation like finding the studio
28:40
when you enter the mall it's not always intuitive
28:43
or it's not not all aspects of the human experience
28:47
in the big environment so we're we're trying
28:50
to to figure this out yeah is there an example
28:54
of a space that has done it well well our Refresh
29:00
room in the clinic has worked very well. I mean,
29:03
honestly, we don't want to brag, but it worked
29:07
well. People is the only space for the patients
29:11
in the clinic that can be alone. And they're
29:14
usually in a lot of stress physically and emotionally.
29:19
When they enter the room, many of them will fall
29:23
asleep in seconds. Wow. And we did read... Can
29:28
I join the study? She needs rest. Sorry, go ahead.
29:35
No, yeah, we did some preliminary studies in
29:39
our lab, and we also reviewed the literature
29:41
to find, at least as far as we know, what amount
29:46
of wood should we bring into the space. We wanted...
29:50
dim lighting because that had shown some restorative
29:53
effects versus harsh overhead lighting. Things
29:57
that are totally intuitive to designers but not
30:02
empirically proven necessarily. So we gathered
30:05
this information and one of the things about
30:09
our lab that interesting compared to other neuroscientists
30:14
is we're often filling various roles like we
30:17
will be designing and ordering products from
30:21
West Elm and making sketchup diagrams and I have
30:25
on occasion built furniture for our experiments.
30:30
Perfect. We've also studied, we're still actively
30:35
collecting data for that, the built environment
30:38
in virtual reality, which is a different aspect,
30:43
a different type of research because, you know,
30:46
it's cheaper, easier to test things instead of...
30:51
building and rebuilding. I know there is this
30:55
trend in architecture to use VR maybe to show
30:59
the space in a more immersive way to the clients.
31:03
So we try to incorporate virtual reality as well
31:08
and that allows us to test different populations.
31:11
Right and figure out like when you're translating
31:13
something from real into virtual what gets translated
31:19
over and what perhaps falls off about like your
31:22
spatial perception or your sense of embodiment
31:25
in a space. Like some things might, there might
31:27
be a trade -off. Can you let us know about the
31:30
psychology of public art? Maybe focusing on Philly's
31:35
murals themselves. Philly, as you mentioned,
31:38
is a great city to study art and more particularly
31:42
a great space to study mural arts and public
31:44
arts. We're in touch with mural arts and are
31:48
maybe going to write a grant together. We'll
31:50
see. Some of the research we have so far looks
31:54
at these guided tours of art in West Philly and
31:59
Center City. And we're taking Penn undergrads
32:02
out of their comfort zone. And one of the things
32:06
we wanted to see is if the neighborhood was previously
32:10
unfamiliar to them. how does the public art change
32:14
their perception before and after? And we're
32:17
seeing some results of that, that it's perceived
32:20
as less noisy when they go to Center City after
32:24
looking at the murals. In West Philadelphia,
32:27
west of 52nd, they perceive less crime and less
32:32
litter. We're really interested in pushing that
32:37
forward and probing more deep introspection at
32:40
the murals to see how deep people are willing
32:43
to go and if that relates to how they perceive
32:48
the neighborhood. That's an undergrad we have
32:51
running that study. She's amazing. Wow, that's
32:53
incredible. Yeah, and the way we understand better
32:57
how people feel about the murals and generally
33:00
about... the art that we show them is not only
33:05
if they find it beautiful and if they like it
33:07
this is what most studies have done in aesthetics
33:11
for many years when it started but lately we
33:15
not only our lab but other labs that are currently
33:19
working on neuroaesthetics we try to go deeper
33:22
because it's not only about beauty maybe it makes
33:27
you feel terrible That's perfect. We need to
33:30
know that. And only asking beauty and liking
33:33
is not enough. So in the lab, we have this taxonomy
33:37
of impacts, aesthetic and emotional impacts.
33:39
So we will ask people. And I think that's relevant
33:42
for the murals as well, because the murals often
33:45
have social meaning, especially in some areas.
33:49
They're community oriented. They have something
33:53
more related to the society. It's not just something
33:56
pretty. And we will ask people, is it challenging?
34:01
Do you feel confused? Do you feel edified? Do
34:06
you feel angry, upset? We really try to capture
34:09
both good and negative, let's say, emotions.
34:15
Because sometimes these can provide a richer
34:19
experience aesthetically when you see art that
34:25
challenges you. Why does it challenge you? What
34:29
is the aspect that creates that? Is it personal?
34:33
Is it the art? How do you connect with it? And
34:36
we also ask them to give us free responses, how
34:39
they feel, in case we can get something extra
34:43
out of their experience. That's such an incredible
34:46
question, especially because as murals are popping
34:49
up across the city, I believe even from the muralists
34:53
that... artists that we've spoken to, they're
34:56
trying to find ways to connect that piece of
34:59
art to that community. And sometimes for a viewer
35:03
that isn't from the community, is it too niche
35:07
to the community that it's then not speaking
35:10
to someone outside of the community as much?
35:14
And would that blank space have been better off
35:19
making something that inspired everyone? to come
35:24
into the community versus just lifting up the
35:28
smaller community that's around it well actually
35:30
i have some data on that i love that oh my gosh
35:33
we did this massive online study where we were
35:38
trying to create a more inclusive database of
35:41
artworks for other experimenters to use a lot
35:44
of people in our field will use matisse picasso
35:48
you know a lot of the masters that are in the
35:50
public domain now and we don't feel that's representative
35:54
of aesthetic experiences. So we collected these
35:58
artworks informed by experts in art history,
36:02
African art, Latin American art, religious art.
36:07
I'm missing two categories. Murals was one of
36:10
the categories of the artworks that we collected
36:13
for this diverse database. And when we ran the
36:16
massive online study to see how people felt about
36:20
the pieces and get average ratings across a diverse
36:24
population, murals stood out the most in terms
36:29
of what people liked the most, what they felt
36:33
was the most transformative. These were not people
36:36
from Philadelphia. These were people from all
36:39
over the United States. And I think one of the
36:43
things that a good mural will do well is immediately
36:47
pull you into its story. Because they're meant
36:50
to be engaging. It's a tool. And good mural artists
36:57
know how to leverage that tool to really draw
37:01
the viewer in and make them think critically.
37:04
All artists do that well, but maybe with the
37:06
murals, the narrative is more immediately clear.
37:08
We don't really know. Maybe it's just the ones
37:10
we picked, but the murals were... the top rated
37:15
in that whole study. Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
37:18
Oh, that's so good. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well,
37:22
thank you both for sharing your time with us
37:24
today. Thank you for asking. I mean, we're often
37:27
in our little scientific bubble. Thank you for
37:31
having us. No, thank you for sharing your time
37:34
as well as your work. For both of you, where
37:37
can our audience find you online? If you want
37:40
to find out more about the research we do, our
37:43
website is neuroaesthetics .med .upenn .edu.
37:48
That's a bit of a challenging search. I'll link
37:50
it in the show notes. If you look up brain art
37:54
Philly, I'm 99 % confident you'll find us. We're
37:59
rolling into some rapid fire questions. I'm ready.
38:03
Favorite architect? Bernard Schumi. And that's,
38:05
I feel like I should say, the architect that...
38:08
we know throughout work, but Bernard Schumi.
38:12
American one, I would say Lloyd Wright, Frank
38:15
Lloyd Wright. Also a big fan of Frank Gehry,
38:17
so the news recently. Oh, my gosh. Favorite Philadelphia
38:22
neighborhood? I used to live above Jim Stakes
38:26
on 4th and South, and I loved it there so much.
38:30
I love South Street. I've moved since, but...
38:35
There's just a special energy there. For me,
38:38
it would be Gabor Hood, but below Walnut Street,
38:42
where it's like Queen Street. Yes. Like all the
38:46
little streets there. We have a couple streets.
38:49
I used to walk my dog there a lot, and I love
38:52
this area. Go -to horror movie. I feel like I
38:55
am constantly telling people about Raw, which
38:59
is a really intense body horror movie about...
39:05
a vegetarian who goes to vet school and then
39:08
crazy things happen. Do you know this movie?
39:10
No. We're going to go down Wikipedia wormholes
39:14
tonight. I just know it. It's a cannibal movie.
39:16
On that note. Cheese steaks with whiz or without?
39:19
Without. Bravo. Without. American cheese. Favorite
39:23
Philadelphia mural? It wasn't my favorite initially,
39:26
but... I did this study on challenging art and
39:30
reading people's responses to it was so uplifting.
39:33
I don't know the title of it, but it's a mural
39:36
of a black man and his black daughter sitting
39:39
on his shoulder and they're sharing a kiss and
39:42
there are hibiscus flowers. And in the study,
39:46
people felt so compelled by this mural and the
39:50
positive depiction of black and brown fathers.
39:53
that it was really moving to me. This is my favorite
39:56
now. My favorite so far, I would say, is the
40:01
one in Gabor Hood next to 12th Street. It's above
40:06
a community garden. And the mural itself. is
40:11
a depiction of a community garden, of a garden.
40:14
And it's in our database. It's beautiful because
40:18
you have the community garden and then you have
40:21
the mural that is so colorful, so beautiful.
40:24
And then you have the sky. For me, it's amazing.
40:29
I loved seeing this mural. Favorite ballet. I
40:34
don't know. It's okay. It's a new space. Is Albert
40:38
Ailey considered ballet? Of course. It's a company.
40:41
I like seeing their pieces. So from the Philadelphia
40:45
Ballet, I think my favorite performance would
40:48
be Carmen. Carmen had something... different
40:53
and it was so passionate in a way that I hadn't
40:58
seen ballet before and I loved it so I think
41:01
it would be Carmen and then from other companies
41:05
I think I would agree with Alvin Ailey when I
41:09
saw Alvin Ailey last year in Philly early this
41:13
year I was just amazed by their Their talent.
41:18
Well, thank you again so much, guys. Thank you.
41:21
Let's check out the spaces around you and question
41:24
them a little more now. Wow. Incredible. Incredible
41:37
work. We are in the thick of holiday programming
41:42
for this weekend. We have Philadelphia Ballet's
41:45
The Nutcracker is continuing its run through
41:48
the end of the year at the Academy of Music.
41:50
We will be there. But also, Ballet X is offering
41:54
counter -programming to all of The Nutcracker
41:57
with their programming at Bryn Mawr from December
42:00
12th through the 14th. One night only, on the
42:03
14th, Philadelphia Chamber Music Society presents
42:06
Juilliard Quartet. featuring Marc -Andre Hamlin
42:11
on the piano at the Kimmel Center. Actually,
42:13
that PCMS production is sold out, so good luck
42:17
trying to score tickets on the secondary market.
42:19
But on the 16th, the Philadelphia Chamber Music
42:22
Society presents Matthew Polanzano, tenor, and
42:27
Ken Noda on the piano, also at the Kimmel Center.
42:30
This is your last week to check out Steve Rydell's
42:34
I Want the West. at Larry Becker Contemporary
42:38
Art. It closes on the 20th. Ongoing gallery shows
42:42
throughout December. Colors of the Season, the
42:45
Muse Gallery Annual Members Show. Pie Gallery's
42:49
Patricia Moss Freelands, The Stillness Between
42:52
Us. Third Street Gallery Under $500 Show, an
42:56
annual members show. And into the new year until
42:58
February, Materiality, a group show at Bridget
43:02
Meyer Gallery. Before signing off, Robert, do
43:06
you have any plans for this weekend? I have some
43:08
Christmas brunches, I think Ballet X, and just
43:12
out to see the art. Billy has heart. And art.
43:43
Thanks for tuning in to Philly Has Heart, where
43:45
we get to know the people at the heart of Philadelphia
43:48
culture. Follow us, share the love, and tune
43:52
in on Thursdays for your weekly cultural update.