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Issue 330: Dooku Dilemma · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

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Hello, then, welcome to the nerd Polity. Hi, this is Nick
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Nastasu, story editor on Star Wars, the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad
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Batch. And you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations. That's right, You're now
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part of Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars podcast that explores all of the uncharted
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territory of the Star Wars galaxy. I am one of your hosts, Jedi
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Master John Mills, and joining me as my dear friend, Jedi philosopher,
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Jedi Master Matthew Rushing, Master Rushing. Let's get off with a little pre
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question before today's topic, wherein I ask you whether Banta Burger's or Gungan fish
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dogs are better. Oh see, this is a great question because Gungan fish
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dogs basically just sound like fish tacos. To me, I love fish tacos.
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There you go, and so as much as I love a good burger,
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I feel like the Gungan fish dogs are probably pretty amazing. Go.
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There you go. That is the authoritative answer from a Jedi master, Folks,
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and you have to listen to it, and you have to reach out
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to us, and you go out by doing that and going to x Twitter,
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Twitter, x Twitter, ten ten Twitter, whatever, whatever it is.
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Now find us at the Jedi Masters, find this great network that we
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are on at joint Nerd Party, and look forward the Nerd Party on Facebook
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and Instagram, whose names are eternal and unchanging as the sun in the sky.
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So, Jedi Master, Matthew Rushing, I have an interesting, I
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think it's interesting question inspired by Tales of the Jedi, which is that delightful
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animated series that we got that we will be getting a second season of.
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I believe, I believe you're right. And so I was thinking as I
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went back and I rewatched some stuff, because it truly is some of the
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best Star Wars storytelling period. And one of the arcs deals with Doku and
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his fall, and one of the points of contention is that Mace Windu gets
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elevated to the Jedi Council at the end of one particular episode and Doku has
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passed over, and we can see this really does not sit well with him.
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We all know that Palpatine made a move for Dooku. Would Palpatine still
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have made a move for Doku had he been elevated to the Council, or
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would he have changed tactics and gone for Window, who we both agree was
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at times skirting the line with the dark side to begin with. I think
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this is a really inspired question because when I think about Dooku, and one
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of the things here that I think allows Palpatine to get his hooks in him
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is that his pride is hurt, and so with that hurt pride, he's
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a lot he but he also channels that pride, I think through his frustrations
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about the Republic and you know the things that he's seen. You know that
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that where you know senators taking advantage of their entire planets and it seems like
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nobody really cares about them if the Jedi weren't there, and so there's there's
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all of these mixed motivations I feel like for Doku in everything, and I
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do think that there is a very good chance though that if Doku had had
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his pride assuaged by being on the Council, that you know, he would
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have felt as though then he had the opportunity to make his voice more readily
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known to the Council, to be able to sway maybe other members to his
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points of view, which would have, I think made him feel better and
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would have made it I think more difficult for Palpatine to get his hooks in
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him, because I think it's the culmination of all of those frustrations that Doku
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has that really allows, you know, Palpatine to kind of sink his teeth
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in and pull him away from the Jedi by promising him, you know,
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we're going to make the galaxy better, and the only way to really do
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that is the Jedi or the problem and the Sith or the answer. And
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so yeah, I mean, I think you could absolutely see a way for
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Dooku to not go the way that he does if he's sitting on council.
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Now, I guess I'm wondering, do you also think that would be the
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case? Like, can you see that as being a world where you know,
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Doku feels like he's doing enough and therefore, you know the promise of
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what Palpatine is kind of offering doesn't hold as much water for him. No,
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I think, and I'm not saying that just to be a contrarian.
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You hit on a word that I think is key pride. I think that
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Duku's pride will never be assuaged, never truly assuaged. And we know that
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Jedi Masters Psyphodius is going to be a ranking member of the Council around the
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same time, and we know that that little scamp got into all sorts of
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trouble between the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I think that Palpatine
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winds up having two people that he can bend their ear. Does he go
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so far as to convert Dooku? No, I don't think so. But
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I don't think he lets go of him per se in this context, because
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obviously Palpatine finds a way to influence things so that even Psyphodius, who so
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far as we know did not turn Sith, still played into his hands.
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I think Palpatine would have been wise enough to know how to manipulate Dooku.
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The flip side of that being, I honestly don't think he then goes for
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Window, because while Window is especially in that key moment in Revenge of the
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Sith, just on that line could go to darkness. I think Window is
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the type that has to drive himself to darkness because going the way of the
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if for somebody like Windw at a minimum, is breaking the rules. And
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one of Window's big things is following the rules. And so somebody coming to
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him and asking him to break the rules would not work. You can't break
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him that way. Whereas Douku had a problem with the rules to begin with
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as something he passed along to his own student Quai gon Jin, and it
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is something that I think that's why he couldn't manage to get Window. Now,
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I mean, Palpatine is a master manipulator. He Maybe I'm off base,
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but I think that Windo is untouchable for him. But I also don't
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think Doku lasts on the council. I think he cycles out pretty quick.
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I think he gets frustrated anyway and leaves anyway, especially if Qui gon winds
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up dying. I think, no matter what, Douku splits because he just
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can't take it anymore. That would be what I would offer as my answer.
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And long winded, I admit, but ah, yes, long window.
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But so the thing that I was thinking is as you were talking,
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because you hit on exactly the answer that I kind of had for Window,
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which is that he's such a rule follower that and that's his way of keeping
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himself in line that I don't think that he could be sufficiently tempted to join
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the dark side. You know, he's not going to be tempted by the
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fruit of another. And what's so interesting about that is I think that one
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of the things that in the beauties of the Clone Wars. And then of
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course what we've seen, you know, with Tales of the Jedi, is
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that the Jedi themselves had become such rule followers. And it's not even until
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really you get Yo going on his big journey where he has spiritual enlightenment that
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I think he actually truly becomes somebody who is free of the letter of the
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law. And it's too late by that point, you know, because the
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Jedi have become such sticklers for quote unquote the law. You know, basically,
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I mean that in kind of like a biblical sense, right, you
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know, the law as it is written. We do not deviate. There's
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no grace. We just follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit
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of the law. And you know, that's I think the kind of the
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big switch that comes of course through trilogies. Then you know, you get
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to the original trilogy, and Luke in many ways is following the spirit of
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the law right. In fact, he's actually living out the what his father,
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you know it puts as he's trying to Woo padmey, which is that
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it's about unconditioned love, right, and so you would say that a Jedi
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is maybe encouraged to love. Well, that's true, but the problem is
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is that the Jedi had made it such a rule about that they had actually
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lost the spirit of what that meant. And so no, I I I
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say all that to say, I think when we come to Windu is that
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he is a person who who just can't see any other way. And part
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of that is because you know, we do know that, you know,
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Dooku is a person who you know, had his own struggles with the dark
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side, and of course one of his ways of keeping himself on the straight
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and narrow was following the rules to the letter of the law. And you
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know, for some people that's exactly what they need, but that doesn't mean
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that needs for everyone. And so yeah, I think it creates a really
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interesting question. I think I'm a little bit more on the side of there's
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a possibility with Dooku that being on the Council may have given him what he
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needed long enough for it to be difficult for Palpatine to really ever use him.
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But I think the beauty of the Clone Wars is that we see that
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there are other Jedi that would be willing. I mean pown Krell right is
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ready to jump ship, and so I think there were other Jedi out there
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that you could have used. The beauty of Dooku is that he had this
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air of regality to him, this air of trustworthiness. You know, he
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was also a count, not just a Jedi, which he you know,
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really had retained. I think that air about him throughout even his time as
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a Jedi. So that's one of the things that really helped in him being
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able to get other systems to follow him, Whereas you know, you have
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like a pown Krell, like, is he really going to be somebody that
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people are going to listen to in a big meeting and like because he doesn't
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have any other cards to play other than hey, i'm aa turns Jedi.
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Well yeah, I mean, you know, I mean it's a I mean,
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honestly, it's like sort of like the Darth Maul conundrum, where it's
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like Darth Maul walking into a conference room. You're not you're not going to
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listen to his ideas, You're just gonna be terrified of him. Whereas even
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Vader even even if you're we've seen on the Death Star, Vader can walk
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in and like he at least fits in enough to be hanging out in the
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conference room and talking with people, whereas if Maul talks, you're like,
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oh, I'm sorry, sure, whatever you said, whatever you said,
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you know, that sort of thing. I like the fact that you touch
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on the fact that, like, I mean, Wind, One of the
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reasons I love Wind Do so much as a character is he is the embodiment
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of the person who needs the rules and the discipline to keep him from being
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who he would be without them. You know, It's sort of like the
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guy who joins the military and if he doesn't join the military, he's going
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to wind up being in prison for murder after one bad night at a bar
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sort of thing. So you want rules around that person, right, So,
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if anything, Window is sort of almost like a walking advertisement for keeping
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the rules of the Jedi Order, because you know, Heaven help the galaxy
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if Window doesn't have those strictures put around him, because he will lay waste
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to planets if he if he goes outside of those rules. He needs those
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clear, bold lines drawn for him. And he's an intelligent enough guy where
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it's going to be He's going to ask those nitpicky questions so that the Jedi
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are like, really, we have to write a rule for that too.
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Yeah, well, if we don't do that, Window is going to just
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be like you didn't write a rule about that. It's like, all right,
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fine, we'll write a rule about that, and then all the other
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Jedi are like, why do we need a rule for this? And it's
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because of people like Window, So you know, then conversely, we could
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go on and have like a whole psychoanalysis of Mace Window. You know,
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we all know I adore the character. Sorry for going off on the tangent
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like that, but I think that I think that Dooku still winds up no
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matter what. I just think the guy cannot resist. And again going back
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to the tales of the Jedi story, that beautiful story of him with young
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Qui Gon where it looks and feels like an old Hammer horror film, and
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Quai Gon is the one who stops Dooku from fully committing to what he wants
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to do in those moments, and it's maybe Dooku's heart isn't as pure as
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it should be, like Doku. What I think is interesting is I would
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love to find out, in just in the context of this discussion, what
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type of retreat process did they have for Jedi. Did they have set up
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a process by which a Jedi could take a sabbatical for a certain amount of
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time so that the pressures of being in the galaxy could be released and they
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could just commune with the Force, go go live somewhere in touch with the
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true Force, the living Force, be away from the galaxy and everything,
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because I think that might be something worth exploring in some sort of thing where
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we find out that they did have that. But then as problems kept cropping
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up in the galaxy, they had less and less time to do it,
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and that's what led to so many Jedi breaking as they went. You know
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all that To say, Dooku and Psyphodius on the council at the same time,
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I was, you know what, I'll throw this out there to you.
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I think it's possible that if Dooku is on the Jedi Council, Kawaign
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never gets sent back to Naboo because the first trip to Naboo, which leads
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to them bringing Anakin Skywalker back, I'll throw out there. I want to
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find out if you would agree with this. It's sort of like a final
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question for this discussion. Two questions. One does Doku go differently than Window
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in terms of the opinion about Anakin? But two, does Doku become a
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dissenting voice about sending Obi Wan and Qui Gon back to Nabu or is he
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the one with the wisdom to say, no, we can't get involved with
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this. I'm sorry that the Queen's going through this, but no, this
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is the wrong play. It's interesting you ask that question, especially in light
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of this episode of Tales of the Jedi, because I think that the answer
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is is that Dooku is actually all for this, because I think Dooku wants
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to be more interventionist, because he wants to be able to impose his will
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right. You know, he wants to impose what he views as being right,
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and so therefore I could absolutely see him actually being being the one who's
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like, I'll go, you know, I'll handle this matter because of the
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way in which he views that the idea of the Jedi basically is to enforce
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these type of things. So well going the first time, yes, but
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does his affection for Qui Gon keep him from sending them back, is what
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I'm saying, right like, yeah, yeah, you know, because he's
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in a position to protect Qui Gon at that point. Yeah, does his
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affection for Qui Gon. But even even to your point, if he says,
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you know what, I'll go instead of Qui Gon, I think that's
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an interesting thing to supposed there to begin with. Yeah, I think what
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I see happening is that in both instances, you know, Qui Gon would
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want to be there and that he would want to be the one that's involved.
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And you know, especially again like this that that episode, you know,
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I totally see him thinking to himself and even disobeying the council, you
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know, even though he's on it, but disobeying the council and being the
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one who goes if they they were the ones to decide, hey, we
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don't want to get involved. But Doukh's like, I'm going with the queen,
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just because if you know, I would say that if Doku went with
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the Queen and wins, that winds up with gets him kicked off the council
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because he's, oh yeah, if if he does what we're saying where it's
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like, oh fine, I'll go take care of it, and he goes
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and he kills it. It's like, well, okay, you're not behaving
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like a council member at all. You get you got a chill out,
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bro, and think about this. But you know, let's let's get to
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the real the thing I'm dying to think. Does he vote for Anakin to
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train? That's a that's a tricky one because I think that Douku has enough
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of a disregard for the rules to be like, yeah, let's do it.
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But at the same time, I could also see him being the person
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of being like, yeah, we don't need a savior, you know,
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or that, or or being somebody who doesn't put their hope in in prophecies.
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Right, So let me flip it on its head. What if he
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votes for Anakin to be trained, but instead of Qui Gon saying I'll take
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him as my potawan learner, Duku says I'll do this, and Douku takes
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Anakin on as his He says, I'll step down from the council and train
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him. That becomes the wedge by which Palpatine winds up exerting more influence.
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So I mean, you know, this is a one no no, no,
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I I think I appreciate where you're going with that, though, because
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I do. I do think that it kind of shows in many anyways where
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we can kind we can keep coming down to ways in which Dooku would find
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himself being kicked off the council right for being disobedient in more ways than Quigan
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could. And you know, I think the interesting thing about this whole question
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really becomes to me is just you know, there is a spirit in Qui
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Gon that he got from his master that gives him a disregard for the rules
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in a way that is a little bit reckless, right. And I think
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the problem though, is that it's the pendulum swing from where the council is,
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you know, and so somewhere in the middle is where you needed to
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be, which is kind of the middle is where you get like a Yoda
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and an obi Wan a little bit further down on the road right where they're
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able to kind of take I think the best of both of those massive swings
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and kind of meet somewhere in the middle, and that's where the Jedi should
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have been the whole time. But it's too little, too late, you
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know, and Quie gone, and I think even Dooku maybe are you know,
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reactions to this place of where the Council has has come and where the
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Jedi, you know, the not just the Jedi, but the Republic have
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come and so they're they're swinging so wildly in the other direction that it's it's
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what gets us into trouble, which you know, I think as we look
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at that, you know, that's a perfect representation of how our world works,
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right, the danger of the way our world kind of like wildly swings
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from one side to the next, and it's like, you know, like
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neither extreme is really right here. It's it's it's usually when we meet somewhere
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in the middle between the two, which is temperance, which is usually where
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wisdom comes in that things are better. And so I like that we kind
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of got to that place here at the end because I think the question that
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you ask at the very beginning, we've been able to kind of come to
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this place where it's like, you know, most likely Dooku, even if
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he had been on the council, would have found a way to get himself
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kicked off the same way that you know, Quigan never gets invited the Council,
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just like Dooku never, did you know, and so I think it's
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just a really fascinating thing. And you know, in the end, Quigan
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himself is not wrong, but the way he goes about things is wrong.
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And I think this will never be the title of the episode, but I
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think this discussion to speak to your point that you just hit on. I
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think the perfect title for this episode would simply be Dooku's a. But that
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being said, Master Rushing, If anybody wants to debate, to find a
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point to this conversation with you, where can they find you? Online?
23:03
All over social media. I'm under the name at Rushing Show two. Of
23:07
course, you're in the network. You can find me in a completed show
23:08
called owl Post, all about the Harry Potter series, one chapter at a
23:11
time. I'm on the TFM network with a bunch of shows. You'll find
23:15
me in the six o two Club, where we talk all about fantoms.
23:18
We love, not just one fantom, but as many as we can cram
23:22
in. John's a frequent guest over there. You can also find me doing
23:26
literary treks, the orb Warp five, the Artificial Tango and saddle up over
23:30
there. But John, you know, when you're not trying to find the
23:33
best place in Coruscant to get some fish dogs. Where can people find you?
23:40
You can find me prowling about wild space, and you can find me
23:44
right here on the network. Co hosting a show called house Lights where we
23:47
look at the work of directors through all sorts of zad combinations. I co
23:51
host that with Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser and we have a grand old time
23:55
there. But I'll tell you what, Master Rushing, I think it's time
23:59
that we have a blind taste test where fine, I'll concede that Gungan fish
24:06
dogs win. But let's go ahead. Let's have a blind taste test with
24:10
the true true delicacy, which would be Corssant chicken patties. So let's go
24:17
ahead and close these negotiations. These negotiations are closed. Join the Revolution,
24:27
Join the Nerd Party.