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48 - Final Fantasy VII: Grief, Consolation, and Recovery · Mythic Mind Games

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  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Games, an extension of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the Mythic Mind Fellowship where we pursue wisdom in the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: past between primary and secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you're here. Welcome back to Mythic
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  Speaker 1: Mind Games. Today we are continuing are really jumping back
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: into our our ongoing Final Fantasy series, this time with
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  Speaker 1: Final Fantasy seven, which is definitely a favorite of mine,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite games. I think it would be
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: very easy for my opening remarks to just turn to
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  Speaker 1: endless monologue and so I'll just cut myself off at
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  Speaker 1: some point. But well, I have some memories of the
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  Speaker 1: SMS Final Fantasy days, as I've mentioned before. Really the
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  Speaker 1: first one that I remember actually completing was Final Fantasy seven.
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  Speaker 1: I was a little bit young at the time, especially
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  Speaker 1: for the other games that I think, let's see, this
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  Speaker 1: game came out in ninety seven, so I was like
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  Speaker 1: eight years old or something when when this came out,
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  Speaker 1: and so's it hit me at a very just pivotal
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  Speaker 1: point in life, especially given just the heavy themes that
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  Speaker 1: it deals with, the the you know, resilience, the hope,
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  Speaker 1: and the sorrow it's the first time I've had a
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  Speaker 1: major video game character die on me, which you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'll always remember that scene.
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  Speaker 2: It kind of just locked.
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  Speaker 1: Into my head at a young age moving forward, and
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  Speaker 1: so that there's that nostalgia factor built into it like
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  Speaker 1: no other game really holds for me. But you know,
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  Speaker 1: as I returned to it just recently, and this is
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  Speaker 1: the probably the only Final Fantasy that I've returned to
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  Speaker 1: multiple occasions, like every few years or so, but my
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  Speaker 1: most recent playthrough, I'm convinced that it's just not nostalgia
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  Speaker 1: alone that holds its place for me. That this is
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  Speaker 1: an objectively good game that regardless of what Michael might
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  Speaker 1: tell us in a little bit that it's it's a
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  Speaker 1: it's a pretty profound story, and I think that I
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  Speaker 1: even appreciate it on an artistic level more so now
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  Speaker 1: than I did as a kid, simply because I've kind
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  Speaker 1: of developed my understanding of artistry and what fantasy is
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  Speaker 1: supposed to do, and I think this does it really well,
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  Speaker 1: and that it creates that tension between On one hand,
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  Speaker 1: there are these very attractive elements in the story that
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  Speaker 1: the fantastical, the kinds of things that draw you in
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  Speaker 1: and at least on some level make you want to
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  Speaker 1: be part of that world. But there's also enough kind
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  Speaker 1: of dissonance, a sorrow, a longing, the sense from the
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  Speaker 1: very beginning, from i would say, even just the main
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  Speaker 1: theme in the introduction, that there's this sense of longing
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  Speaker 1: that things aren't what they should be, even in this
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  Speaker 1: fantasy world. And I think that that goes beyond simply
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  Speaker 1: the narrative level of of course they're bad guys, but
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  Speaker 1: on just a basic esthetic, kind of ontological way that
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  Speaker 1: the world is set up. It creates that tension between
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  Speaker 1: longing desire, but also sorrow and this sense of like
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  Speaker 1: something isn't just isn't right, you know. I feel like
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  Speaker 1: the soundtrack, the narrative beats, the characters, the backstories, I
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  Speaker 1: feel like all of that religious comes together in a
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  Speaker 1: really powerful way that I think some of the earlier
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  Speaker 1: Final Fantasies really start to hint at like there's there
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  Speaker 1: are a lot of overlapping ideas at play between especially
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  Speaker 1: I would say six and seven, but even five and
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  Speaker 1: some of the others before it. But I think this
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  Speaker 1: is the culmination of a lot of what Final Fantasy
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  Speaker 1: is starting to do up to this point, and just
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  Speaker 1: hits it on a whole new level as far as
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  Speaker 1: I'm concerned, So that those are my opening thoughts. I'm
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  Speaker 1: a big fan of this game. I pretty much always
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  Speaker 1: have been, and I'm sure that I always will be.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna say really much of anything
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  Speaker 1: about the remakes right now, because that's the separate conversation,
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  Speaker 1: but I will say that I've I just I've enjoyed
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  Speaker 1: stuffing back into that world as I've been playing those recently,
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  Speaker 1: and so it's I'm a big fan here, all right,
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  Speaker 1: we'll go clockwise here, Michael, why don't why don't you
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  Speaker 1: tell us something about this game?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And to be sure, contrary to the were shadowing earlier,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not negative on Fabby seven at all. I think
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  Speaker 2: it's a fantastic game. I, however, do not have nostalgia
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  Speaker 2: for this game because I played it very late. I
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: was a Nintendo fanboy growing up, and if you were
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: following things at the time, there was the big Sony
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: split where they took all the third parties in the
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: PlayStation era, while Nintendo did the Nintendo sixty four and
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: suddenly had a hard time getting their berries to developed
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: for it. Fombacy seven was kind of an emotionally volatile
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: thing at that point for the Nintendo fandom, because there's
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: this whole sordid history of how Square was very attached
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: to Nintendo in the superin Es days, and like that
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: was an RPG system and one of the main reasons
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: because Square was there, and so then they left and
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: all right, we're making games for Sony now, and then
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: the fan Facy seven was like the big game there,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: and that was also the game that really launched JRPGs,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I think in the western markets, because they had a
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: really hard time getting traction before that point. So at
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  Speaker 2: the time, I was mostly just annoyed that we was
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: talking about fan Phasy seven back then, I'll be honest,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: because I didn't have a PlayStation, I wasn't playing it,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: and I also was not as much into arbuds as
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  Speaker 2: I am now. Obviously many many years later, that's not
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  Speaker 2: nearly as much of a thing now, but it meant
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: it just took a really long time before I played it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I finally played it when it released on the Switch, like,
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  Speaker 2: which was also a big deal to somebody who grew
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  Speaker 2: up in that era, because oh my goodness, there's a
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  Speaker 2: final Fantasy seven on a Nintendo system.
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  Speaker 3: How insane is this?
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  Speaker 2: You can get it on a cartridge, so anyway, so
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I played it then, and when I played it, I
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: was actually legitimately impressed to how well it aged. In
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: some ways, I don't think it does. Like the graphics
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  Speaker 2: are very crude, Like I think if you compare it
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  Speaker 2: to like fan Phasy nine, where their tech had matured
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  Speaker 2: much more, I think by that point those graphics are
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  Speaker 2: way better than seven does. Like the characters is super blocky.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think pre rendered background in the long term
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  Speaker 2: have held up well, which was kind of the whole
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  Speaker 2: visual design of all the areas in that game. But
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: if you get past that and learn how to deal
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  Speaker 2: with kind of sometimes janky exploration controls, it's very good.
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  Speaker 2: The battle system still holds up extremely well. It's an
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  Speaker 2: addictive game to play. I was kind of surprised when
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  Speaker 2: I played It's just like how much I just kind
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  Speaker 2: of wanted to keep playing because it just it leads
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  Speaker 2: you along very well. It's it's pretty well paced, even
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  Speaker 2: though this was the era where Jare Produce started to
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: slow down a bit, and they're pacing particularly in summons
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: like Nights of the Round which is infamous for how
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: ridiculously long it takes, just like how many minutes of
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: my life did I waste casting Knights of the Round?
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  Speaker 2: But tell you that aside, still a very good game
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  Speaker 2: story wise, So I my hot take is that the
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  Speaker 2: story is not like amazing, but that's kind of shared
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  Speaker 2: across all the Final Fantasies, Like I don't think any
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  Speaker 2: of the Final Pansies have like amazing stories, even like
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: File Phase five is like one of my favorites in
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  Speaker 2: the series. So that's obviously not a huge hit for me,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: because I still think the games are great, But I
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  Speaker 2: think like where Square sometimes overestimates their own storytelling abilities,
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  Speaker 2: they make up for it in extremely good visual and
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  Speaker 2: character design. So like the characters in Famably the Center
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  Speaker 2: are like some of the most iconic in all the
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  Speaker 2: video games, like everybody knows who Cloud Titha, Barrett Erath are,
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  Speaker 2: and as Andrew mentioned, like Ereth's spoilers, Rath's death is
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  Speaker 2: like sparred to the memories of everybody who've ever played
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  Speaker 2: it because it's very well executed and you become so
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  Speaker 2: attached to the character when you lose herd like it
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  Speaker 2: feels like a big deal, and so that makes it
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  Speaker 2: very impactful. So overall, yeah, it's a really good game.
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  Speaker 2: It soundtrack holds up very well, just top to the
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  Speaker 2: bottom of great artistic achievement. So I'm glad I finally
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  Speaker 2: got to go back and play. And it was although
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: we're not talking about Fably Sent remake, it was kind
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  Speaker 2: of while because I finished Fantasy seven the day I
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: started fan Pasey seven remakes, so it's like I just
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: jumped like thirty years or however long it was to
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  Speaker 2: play that. But we'll come back on to that on
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  Speaker 2: a future week.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, great game, Yeah, I can on an objective level, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: of course you're right about the graphics.
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  Speaker 2: I know it's different if you were there at the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't impact me because of that reason, But I
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  Speaker 1: mean on an objective level, yeah, that's definitely a fairy criticism.
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  Speaker 1: I mean it in many ways. You know, File Fantasy
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  Speaker 1: six graphics hold up a lot better than seven, just
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  Speaker 1: because of the style that they are very very blocky people.
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  Speaker 1: All right, David tell us about this game.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and the graphics. It's funny how much better they
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  Speaker 4: got just in eight. For the character models. I think
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  Speaker 4: you know, the development cycles were so much shorter back
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  Speaker 4: than I don't know why they made the esthetic choice
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  Speaker 4: of the small models with the basketballs for hands kind
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  Speaker 4: of a thing. But regardless, this is my favorite Final
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  Speaker 4: Fantasy game and one of my favorite games of all time.
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  Speaker 4: But it's one of those games that's become so famous
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  Speaker 4: that it's kind of popular with people on the internet
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  Speaker 4: sometimes to pretend that it's overrated or that was never
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  Speaker 4: actually any good. But as someone who was twenty two
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  Speaker 4: at the time that it came out, I can tell
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  Speaker 4: you I was so excited for this game. I actually
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: imported a copy of a Japanese PlayStation game called Towball
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  Speaker 4: Number one. It was just a fighting game that had
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  Speaker 4: characters by a Kira Toriyama in it, just because it
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  Speaker 4: had a demo, a playable demo of Final Fantasy seven
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  Speaker 4: that came with it. And I was in college at
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  Speaker 4: the time, and when it came out, there were nights
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  Speaker 4: that I stayed up till like four o'clock in the morning,
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  Speaker 4: you know, when I had class coming up.
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  Speaker 3: You know how it is.
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  Speaker 4: But back when we talked about Final Fantasy four, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I talked about how it was blown away then by
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  Speaker 4: the way it advanced storytelling in games and all I
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: was talking about there were like musical cues and the
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: way the tiny sprites could hint at a little bit
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: of emotion by like turning around or looking down or something.
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  Speaker 4: And that was ninety one and this was just six
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  Speaker 4: years later and Final Fantasy seven. It just felt like
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  Speaker 4: a fully cinematic experience at the time. I'll never forget
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: when shinrob blew the pillar and dropped the plate, you know,
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: the piece of the rotting pizza as Barrett calls it,
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  Speaker 4: and crushes the slum and cloud and everybody just narrowly
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: escapes by swinging on a cable. I remember actually jumping
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: off of my sofa or futon as it was. I
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: was in college when that happened. It was just such
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: a powerful cinematic moment that I'd never really felt in
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  Speaker 4: games before. And the way that you know, you could
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  Speaker 4: play like eight hours before you ever leave Midgar and
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: step out onto the world map for the first time,
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  Speaker 4: and that was a huge moment. It just set the
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  Speaker 4: stage for an expansive story and the huge world that
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: you were about to explore.
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  Speaker 3: So I mean, we can talk more later, but that's
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  Speaker 3: what I have to say.
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  Speaker 4: First, of course, remake takes that eight hours turns it
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  Speaker 4: into an entire game, but again that's for another talk.
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  Speaker 1: All right, Josh, he's with us by audio if you're
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: not going to crash your car while you know, said
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  Speaker 1: something about this game.
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  Speaker 5: To join for last week, so I think the audio
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  Speaker 5: cut out again.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're good, So tell us something about this game.
• 11:56
  Speaker 6: Not repeating anything, and if I am, I said, this
• 11:59
  Speaker 6: is what it is, because that it could offer a bit.
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  Speaker 5: But there's some talk, of course about.
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  Speaker 6: The the sort of visual artistry of it, and I
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: think I think people actually get hung up on that, being.
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  Speaker 5: You know, saying such things as, yeah, I gots the
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  Speaker 5: world map.
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  Speaker 6: But like, you know, the polygon figures on the flat
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  Speaker 6: map or whatever it may be, like just the style
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: of the way the characters, or you know, I just
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: can't do it, or maybe the speed of the game
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: perhaps things like that. And what I always tell those
• 12:36
  Speaker 6: people is that if they're really really hyper fixating on
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: the just the qualities that perhaps in age so well
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: and are in fact like the most obvious negative qualities
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: of the game, and they're just really missing out on
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  Speaker 6: a great literary experience. Because of that, I don't think
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: it's worth sacrificing such a thing at the.
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  Speaker 5: End of the day for that ones are just uh,
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  Speaker 5: I mean the world itself in a sense.
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  Speaker 6: If you can get past some of the uh, the
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: more negative aspects of the aesthetics you do have it
• 13:12
  Speaker 6: was really interesting type of you know, secondary world that
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: it kind of really blends the elements of sci fi
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  Speaker 6: and fantasy, right or somebody mentioned earlier.
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  Speaker 5: I think it was you Andrews.
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  Speaker 6: The enchantment what draws you in being drawn into the
• 13:26
  Speaker 6: sublime things that the fantastical does for us, but similar
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: it's so masterfully and artfully kind of incorporates elements of
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: sci fi and that, like everything with Maco and the
• 13:37
  Speaker 6: make a reactor and all of that. Really, it's just
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: a very brilliant blend, even in contrast to Fantasy Vix,
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: which incorporates you know, steam and engines and some things
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: of that like but not quite to the same degree.
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: And then as well, if you continue to play the
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  Speaker 6: game pass to the point of the beginning and don't
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  Speaker 6: get turned off by the aesthetics or whatever, the original
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: game you also will get to experience in its own
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: proper context. The very master class game score soundtrack that
• 14:14
  Speaker 6: comes with it as well, one that I it's one
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: of those game scores for me that I could still
• 14:20
  Speaker 6: listen to regularly and still sometimes will listen to Stay
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: or where there's this track at Their track takes you
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: back to the world, takes you back to specific scenes
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: things like that. You know, it's almost like it wasn't
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: like a John Williams score, a Han Zimmer scored a movie,
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: whereas like this score takes you back in the same
• 14:39
  Speaker 6: sort of way, giving that sort of cinematic experience as well.
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: And there's another main thing I would talk about.
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: It would definitely be on just the whole cloud insect
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: thing but which blew my mind of course would have happened,
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: but perhaps we'll get there soon.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the soundtrack definitely plays a big role in the aesthetics,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the just the feeling of the game. And that's probably
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: the first game that I, you know, listen to the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: soundtrack of on a regular basis as a kid. You
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: know that that world theme or you know, maybe every
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: once in a while throw it on the soundtrack in
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the background while working on something and then you know,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Arisis theme comes on and like, oh, gotta stop for
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: a minute, got to take a moment. Yeah, you know,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: and even though yeah, we're talking about the graphics a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: little bit that, you know, even that aside, I feel
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: like so much more of the just esthetics of this
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: game kind of overcomes that where you don't really see
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: the blocks anymore and you start to feel it as
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: a real experience. So good, Well, let's see what what's
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the best way to proceed forward here. Obviously there's a
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: lot going on to this game. I mean, maybe do
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: we just talked broad sale, score, story, characters, I don't know,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: what do you think what should go?
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I always like characters, like I mentioned, I think there
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: are some of the best parts of.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: This game, all right, So well, maybe we should start
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: with Cloud. And as we talk about some of these
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: main characters, I mean, we can just kind of jump
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: all around to whatever points we.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Want to hit.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: And I'll say he's a very interesting figure that you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: he comes across the very beginning as this very strong,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you know, masculine, kind of stoic figure where I mean, yeah,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: he's kind of out for himself, you know, he just
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: wants to get paid at the very beginning, but you know,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: as he starts to believe a bit more in his companions,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: believe a bit more in the mission that they're getting into.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: He really has this stoic strength, which is what makes
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: his art so compelling. Later on, you know, when he
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: starts to discover more about himself and comes to recognize that, well,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: that's not really him at all. He's had this borrowed personality.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And so this is when the final fantasy really gets
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: like deeply I say, psychological and existential, and in ways
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: that they've kind of hinted that earlier, especially with some
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: of the characters in Fallo phansy six, but this takes
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it to a whole new level regarding just existential crisis
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: like who am I and what do I do with this?
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: And I think that that fragmented personality just I don't know,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: it creates some really compelling storytelling, but also I think
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: raises some precificate questions about what even is it that
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: you are? And you know, what defines a person. So
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to deal with there. But
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know what do you have to say about Cloud?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So for me, I'm trying to think back to exactly
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: all my thoughts on Cloud, because I go back and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: forth on how I feel about him, but I do
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: distinctly remember when I played it, I was thinking, you know,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I've misunderstood who Cloud was going to be, or like,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: had I had prejudged what kind of character he was
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: going to before I went in, because in the nineties, again,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: remember I had this weird baggage around this game. In
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the nineties, this was kind of an era when video
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: games were trying to get edgy and show that they
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: weren't just for kids, and so it felt like a
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: lot of protagonists were just kind of going weirdly like emo,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: like adolescent teenagers, and I always thought of Cloud is
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: emblematic of that, because he's like this kind of grumpy,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: emotionless guy who's just like better But like when you
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: play it, he's a lot more complex than that. Like
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: he is, like you said, very stoic, and he's kind
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: of a in some ways, he's kind of a strange
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: hybrid of several different things. So one is he's the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: protagonist character, which, as in a lot of RPGs, makes
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: him not quite a cipher, but like feeling like you're
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: supposed to insert yourself into him right and imbue him
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: with yourself, so the game doesn't want to put too
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: much of his personality in that to permit you from
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: doing that. So you've already got that going on. But
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: he's not like a chronotype character from Chrono Trigger where
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: he's just complete cipher like. He actually has a personality
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: and he has his own growth path. But it combines
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: that with this whole thing about him having all these
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: messed up memories, so it's like you learned the Lady,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: you can't really trust his memories of what happened before
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: because there's that weird, complicated thing with Zach which I
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: won't even try to begin to explain because it's really compoluted.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And then you learn about his relationship with zeph Roth,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and then yeah, like you said, he gets into this
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: existential crisis point where it's like, what am I like?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Am I just this hollow puppet that was just supposed
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: to be something else? And I don't get time my
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: identity or can I still have an identity despite my origins?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: And that I think is legitimately very interesting and it
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: does make him, I think, a sympathetic character in the end,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: and for some reason, the thing that always sticks out
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: in my memory is when like in one of the
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: early flashbacks where he's talking to his mom, his mom
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: says that he needs to find a woman who's a
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: learn more mature than him to take care of. Like
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: why is that the thing that always sticks out to me?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, he's got some interesting things going on.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, maybe we should say something about what's
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: going on with Cloud because you know, some people may
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: have forgotten or never really understood, which is very understandable
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: because you know, I admit that even before my recent playthrough,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I could have pieced it together exactly
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: what happened. But you know, to to my understanding, you know, Cloud,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: as you know him for much of the game, you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: it thinks he's an ex soldier soldier, being like the
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: expert class Schindra soldier, a warrior who's been you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: infused with you know, growing up, I always called up Mako,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: but I guess this Maco according to the remake, so
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: so Maco. So he gets you know, there's expert class soldier.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: They get infused with his Maco to just make them
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: like super soldiers. And so he has all these memories
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: of the things that he did pal him around with
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: sephy Roth, who was this great war hero and was
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: kind of his mentor at least you according to his memories.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: But eventually you come to find out that he actually
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: never was a soldier. He was just a Chinra trooper.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And basically, once Sephiroth and I guess we can talk
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: about Stepfroth independently, but but once he goes through his
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: own crisis and basically just goes insane and starts killing everybody.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: And that's when Cloud kills Sepharroth essentially or goes them
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: into the live stream and and and Cloud in that
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: confrontation with Sepharroth, you know, he gets impaled with a
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: sword himself, and so he gets mortally wounded, so it
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: would be a mortal wound except he gets pulled off
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: by Shinra and he gets, you know, infused with all
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: this macho and uh and Zach who was this soldier
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: who was there kind of helps to take care of Cloud,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: you know, in the midst of all this, and say, well,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you know, Cloud is more or less getting resurrected through
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: technology and whatever spirituality is involved with the macho and
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: life stream and all that. You know, he basically absorbs
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Zach's personality and memories, and so that's how he gets
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: this idea that he was this great soldier and has
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: done all these things. And so, you know, once he
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: comes to find that he was just a trooper who
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: got pulled into all of this and that even his
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: very memories weren't actually his own, you know, that's when
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: he really just has his breakdown and you know, on
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: a mechanical level, you know, you have to leave them
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: behind for a while he sourts things out, and so
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: it really does raise a lot of questions about what
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: an identity even is, because I mean, for even much
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: of this game, which is a significant chain of events
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: in the life of this character. You know, he is
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: this ex soldier who has these memories and is acting
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: accordingly and on a certain level, like it is Cloud
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: who's doing these things, Cloud who's saying these things, Cloud
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: who's experiencing these things, even though he's filtering it through
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a borrowed identity. And so the question is to what
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: extent is that identity borrowed and to what extent is
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: it actually his own in that he's been enacting it
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: in his life. And I think that there's just all
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: kinds of very interesting questions to deal with. That is
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: a very convoluted story, but I think that as you
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: start to unwind it a little bit, these psychological questions
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: become even more significant.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: But David, do you have anything to say about Cloud?
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean that was pretty good, yeah, and it's
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: pretty shocking when you find him just a vegetable in
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: a wheelchair who can barely hold his head up on
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: the Tropical Island eventually, and then he has to kind
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: of dive into his memories and sort through all that
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: in order to kind of come back around. And his
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: relationship to t Tifa through all of that, because she
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: sees him saying that he is who he is not,
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: but she doesn't really quite step in. The early hints
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: that you have are sefi Rov telling him he's a
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: puppet and things like that, and the times that he
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: loses control and you're pushing the plus pad but you can't,
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: you know, like he's being forced to raise his sword
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: and stuff. That's but you're right. The way that the narrative,
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: especially in the English the original English translation comes across,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: it's not always really easy to understand exactly what the
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: backstory is there. But I think you you laid it
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: out pretty good.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I should say during part of his recovery, the
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: experience being done on him, you know, that's when he's
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: given these genova cells, which is what allows Sepharroth to
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: control him periodically, which I don't know, I guess when
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: you talk about you know about some point too. But
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: everything's connected in all these very complicated ways, so we've
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: got to focus on one thing at a time. But yeah,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: and so that just adds to it. The fact that
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Sepharath is able to control his mind just adds to
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: this crisis of do I even have my own mind?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And so there's there's a lot to deal with there, Josha,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: if you're there to do anything to add about the
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: character of Cloud, yeah.
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: I think Cornwell on the lines to what Micah was
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: saying as well, where not playing the game when it
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: originally came out, because well, personally, I was a toddler
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: at the time, and so based on the age and
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: the gaming experiences I had growing up as a kid
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: in the two thousands, Cloud is really that kind of edgy, mysterious.
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: Guy from Kingdom.
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: Hearts right to me, which is probably a really interesting
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: perspective to have especially for those who played the original
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: game in the nineties. For me, though, that was totally
• 25:38
  Speaker 6: you know, just totally destroyed in the best way in
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: a sense when I played the game probably ten years
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: after I played Kingdom Hearts right, which now would be
• 25:48
  Speaker 6: like maybe fifteen years ago now, and realizing that, like,
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: you know, not always Cloud, not this this Edgeword character.
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: He's also not this super cool like epics guy, Like
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: he's just in a sense, I remember the perception having
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: of him was that like after that big reveal with
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: Zach and also O those things and with Sephrell and Genova,
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: like he's gotta be this this average guy. He couldn't
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: even make the cut in the sense for her soldier
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: in a way, and all these things were given to him.
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: But actually, in a weird way makes him the interesting
• 26:26
  Speaker 6: character that he actually is, right like he's not and
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: someone makes it more compelling.
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: That he's not this amazing cool guy.
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: That I thought he was with this this this epic soldier,
• 26:39
  Speaker 6: this epic hero of any sort of sense, he's into
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: the you know, the edgy guy. Like he's kind of
• 26:45
  Speaker 6: just this this regular teenage guy who ends up in
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: the specific scenario he ends up with Zex memories, and
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: it's like it's such an original idea and concept I suppose,
• 26:57
  Speaker 6: at least as far as I know, of course to
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: the time, but that's.
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: A big, big thing to me.
• 27:02
  Speaker 7: It's like like anybody who has a sort of negative
• 27:07
  Speaker 7: perception of Cloud, either way, the hero or the sort
• 27:13
  Speaker 7: of you know, pseudo you know, two thousands emo teenager.
• 27:20
  Speaker 7: Either way, I guess the character draws so much and
• 27:22
  Speaker 7: tempt and bite to him in a way that doesn't
• 27:25
  Speaker 7: matchine with either of those perceptions. And I know that
• 27:28
  Speaker 7: was pretty pretty mind blowing in a way when that
• 27:31
  Speaker 7: first happened, Like that realization, when that hit me for
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: the first time.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he you know, when he's first presented as just
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: this ex soldier, cool guy, like I mean that, that's fine.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I appreciate having like strong, cool characters. But when we
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: do get those twist where he has to rebuild himself,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: that's where I think he becomes an important character on
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a that's something like a literary level. He becomes that's
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: when they start doing something important rather than just something cool.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's kind of like in Final
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Fantasy six when you have to start doing when you
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: have the option of doing all these side quests with
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the characters to like get into their backstore, and they
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: all have some kind of crisis they're dealing with. You know,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: I guess this is what really makes us different, is
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: that now it's the main character who's really dealing with
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: this in a unique kind of way. But yeah, so
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: obviously all these characters interact, and so as we bounce around,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: we can always say more things about Cloud as we
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: go along. But I guess, uh, focusing on the starting characters,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe we'll go to Barrett, somebody who I
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: don't think we'll have as much to say about, but
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: someone who's definitely worth saying something about, which I mean
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: that yeah, as a pretty young kid playing this game
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: for the first time, you know, as thrown back by
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: this you know, foul mouth, you know, between bear it
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: and said like, the number of like you know, uh,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: symbols you get thrown into the dialogue boxes are just
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: pretty astounding. But you know, obviously he's he's a cool character.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got a gun for an arm. I mean,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. But even he really he gets something
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: like the Cloud treatment, just not as intense in that
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the story, you know, he is
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: just a really tough guy, something of a soldier himself.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: But as you go on, I mean you see his
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: softer side pretty quickly with his relationship with Marlene, who
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: you know, he's he's taken care of, and obviously he
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: takes his role as a father to her very seriously,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and so that is a very wholesome dynamic in contrast to,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: or maybe in supplement of his rougher side. But also,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: you know, even later on towards the end, I really
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: appreciate the repentance that he has for the way he
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: went about his activity with Avalanche, where you know, at first,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you know, he's all about whatever it takes it safe
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: the planet. Basically it's just be these eco terrorists are
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: blowing stuff up. But then towards the end he recognizes,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: you know, how many innocent lives he did image and
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: you know, he really comes to reckon with his misguided righteousness.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And so I appreciate that the death of They gave
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: to his character on that. But yeah, what else do
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you have to say about Barrett?
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's he's really passionate in the beginning, and then
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: he just is constantly angry at Cloud for Cloud just
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: being completely apathetic about it, you know, just not my problem,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: not interested. That's almost all Cloud says for a long time.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: And it's dying Cloud right.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: The animation of the little the little gun arm.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: Shaking, Yeah, I think that's fun for him to then
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: be bouncing off each other during that whole train sequence
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: near the beginning. I think it does a really good
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: job of establishing their their characters and starting right in
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: the middle of the action.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love Barrett. He he might. I don't think
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I'm trying not to bring Remake into this, but I
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: feel like Remake does Barrett like more of a service
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: than like any other character, Like it executes him so well,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: but he becomes my favorite character with that execution. But
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: like looking back, just in probably seven Original and Isolation,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I still love the guy, like partly because I think
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I just really like the trope of the big tough
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: guy with the heart of gold, which is very much
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Barrett's archetype. Like and like you pointed out Andrew, like
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: he does get to the point where he's reflective on
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: like his radicalism that you see at the beginning, because
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: he he does come across it's like overly simplistic about
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: everything at first, and it's like being from the eco
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: terrorist side, it's hard for me to be sympathetic to him.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: But like, like you said, like he has like these
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: very redeeming qualities like that he a lot of it
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: is just he wants to a better world for his daughter,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: and that's very relatable and I think a very wholesome motive,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: even if he goes to overly extreme lengths and trying
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to achieve that. And yeah, he he feels almost like
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: the straight man to how wild everything gets in the story,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: even though he is kind of ridiculous chacter because he's
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: got the gun for an arm thing going on. But like, yeah,
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: he's like the normy of the group, I feel, and
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: that's part also part of why he's likable, because he's
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: just it's just fun to see how he reacts to everything.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and he's got like just an iron will,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: which is sometimes helpful in the story for keeping the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: characters going. Yeah, I don't know how much more there
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: is to say about it. It's just like he's he's
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: a very likable character to have in the group.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you do see that, you know, as you
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: learn more about his backstory, that he carries a lot
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: of guilt underneath his righteous fervor, and so as much
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: as he hates, shindn't run for good reason. You know,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of the extreme actions that he's
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: willing to take are in part meant to cover up
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: for his own sense of inadequacy, his failings in the past,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: how he's failed those who he loved, his hometown, and so,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: complexity wrapped up in what initially seems like a fairly
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: simplistic character. But Josh, everything that on, Barrett.
• 33:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that last thing you just said hits
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: on what I was gonna say as well. Where there
• 33:30
  Speaker 6: are a lot of simplistic characters per se in this sort,
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: I think this is one of those final fantasy games
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: around that time, did it well in general? Right, where
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: you have the simplistic characters, they seem like they could
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: very easily be introduced and think like, oh yeah, just
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: another one dimensional character, right, kind of like being a
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: tough guy or really simplistic type of thing with you know, thirteen,
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: kind of being like just like this nomadic character. Going
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: back to f F six with characters like like Saya
• 34:03
  Speaker 6: and like the Wise, like Samurai guy and Shatter the
• 34:06
  Speaker 6: Ninja guy. And then you progress into the game and
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: you realize that there's depth, there's Letyers the U in
• 34:14
  Speaker 6: terms of backstories, you see different motives, you see a
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: character arc, you see change that is kind of brought
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: about throughout the events of the story itself. And I
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: think that Barrett is just one of many cases of
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: that work that doesn't match well. And part of what
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: makes these games compelling, right, it's the angles, like you know,
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: is it philosophically compelling?
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: You know, is that a great music? Does it have
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: the depth of characters? Is that we have together well
• 34:38
  Speaker 6: in the plot. And then like for Final Fantasy seven,
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: one of the reasons why it's one of the greatest
• 34:43
  Speaker 6: is because it's like, yes, all of the above is
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: true for all of those things.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: One thing I really appreciate about seven. I think it's
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a development from from six even is that you know
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: in six and it seems like a lot of the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: really of the ones that I've played, the Super Hindo
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: era JRPGs that they make the character backstories and the
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: depth of the characters side quests mostly toward the end
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: entirely skippable by you know, worth deli into but kind
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: of on the sidelines. Whereas the fact that Final Fantasy
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: seven interweaves the main character stories into the main story
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: really makes this a uniquely character driven story. That you know,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: even though six had a lot of good characters, and
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of characters period, that this really
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: interweaves them together to make this a story about the characters,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: and so you know too, perhaps to to MICA's point
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: about the relative weakness of the you know, main story,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: that I think that to some degree, I I would
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: agree with that, But I think that the main story
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: really is a stage for these character stories, which is
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: why I particularly appreciate this game, I think because of
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: that unique existential quality.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Now it's moving on to the the next main characters.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I think that brings us probably to Tifa next, who
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I actually don't have a whole lot to say about her.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think she's a good character, and I
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: think she's a solid character, but I don't see quite
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: as much room for a philosophical reflection on her art.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Although maybe somebody you will come up with something that
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: hasn't quite dawned on me, but I think that she
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: does serve to anchor some of Cloud's past, especially as
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: that past becomes raised in a question mark. You know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: for one thing, lets us know that he actually has
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: a pass like he he had relationships before this incident
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: that continue through to who he is, you know, even
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the story where it picks up.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, such as that memory of you know her saying,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: you know when you when you go off and become
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: a soldier, you know, it promised me that you know,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: you always be there when I need help. You know
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: that that that continues, that idea continues, and so that
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: relationship I think helps to ground some of the pre
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: story Cloud. But that's about all that I have to
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: say about Tifa, So I don't know what else do
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: you have to to say about her.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: They're together there at the end, Now I'm forgetting the
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: exact moment. Does she literally pull him out at the
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: final battle, like I feel like she's there and saves him,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: and then they both manage to get onto the ship
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: because it kind of falls in and they escape together.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: I can't remember. I think that's the way it went,
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: because you Cloud is alone and she kind of pulls
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: him out of it one more time, which I think
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: is a good moment. When you said she's a solid character,
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: I think that that is her characters. Yeah, she's like
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: a steady rock for the characters in the game. She
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: doesn't have a lot of complicated aspects of who she is.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: She used to wear like a cowboy hat, but I
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: don't know much.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: She always amuses me because I always think back in like, oh, yeah,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: she's the hot one, but she actually playing the game
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: like she actually does. She's a legitimately warm character, I think,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and like you were saying, like a lot of what
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: she does very well is she anchors Cloud and in
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: some ways she's like the person kind of helps pick
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: up the pieces with him and kind of comes alongside
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: him and is his helper in getting dealing with all
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the horrible stuff he has to go through, like partly
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: through the story, both with losing Earth and also with
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: learning who he is. H So, yeah, I think you
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: could almost call her like I would say between her
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: and Barrett, like they're kind of like the heart emotion
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: in the emotional sense of the story and that like
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: they're like I don't know, they feel like family, I
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: guess is kind of the way I would describe them
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: as far as that group, which Erith has promise of
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: being that but then does get to deliver on that
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: role in the end, and so that leaves them to
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: kind of manage without her. But yeah, like, just like
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: in terms of just her relationship with the rest of
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the casts, I think she's good. She's an interestingly quiet
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: character for the most part. This does not mean she
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: doesn't talk. It just means she's not a loud character
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: like a Barrett, which is which in some ways makes
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: her more endearing. I think, Josh, anything you say about Tifa.
• 39:27
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I know, I've heard others talk about this in
• 39:28
  Speaker 8: the past is where my memory fails me a bit.
• 39:31
  Speaker 8: But I've heard some people will say it almost be
• 39:35
  Speaker 8: like a sense of apologists for Teeth in a way,
• 39:39
  Speaker 8: saying that she's actually not always like are a more
• 39:42
  Speaker 8: compelling and interesting character, or maybe even just like a
• 39:45
  Speaker 8: better emotional grounding for Cloud and a better impact on
• 39:51
  Speaker 8: the story than Erth actually is. Me more than it's
• 39:53
  Speaker 8: like the fact that Earth doesn't make it well nearly
• 39:57
  Speaker 8: as far as like she could, I suppose if if
• 39:59
  Speaker 8: things were differently and done differently, but.
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: I don't think you had any specific takes on that.
• 40:04
  Speaker 6: Again, this is where my memory is a little bit
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: fuzzy on you know that actually works on and it
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: kind of fails me actually have an opinion either way.
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: But I've definitely even that raised before by others.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I don't think that even had
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: she lived, I don't think that Ris who you know,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I've first knew her as Heiress and so I know,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I know we're supposed to call her Earth now, but
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: when I don't think Ris, even she lived, I don't
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: think she could have had that sort of anchoring role
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: for Cloud, simply because I think Cloud really he needed
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: that connection to who he was before, and so I
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: think that, you know, I don't think that Eris could
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: have gone into the life stream with him and you know,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: had that same sort of impact in bringing.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Him out now.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I don't know what else
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: could be said about, you know, the hypothetical there, but
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: I think that Tifa really does play an important role
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: in providing that grounding element for Cloud, which I think
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: is isn't part why there's not so much we can
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: say about her arc because her arc is that stability.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: As we were saying, that that grounds Cloud and helps
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: him to kind of maintain some sense of being. So yeah,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: so I had to say about that, well, I mean,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: I guess that brings us to ris or Earth, you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: I she's I don't know. She obviously plays a particularly
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: poetic element in this game in that not only because
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: she dies and there's that that sorrow, that deep sorrow
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: that's interwoven into the narrative from that point forward, but
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: you know, there's sorrow and longing and swar of this
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: wistfulness that's just wrapped up in her character from the
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: very beginning. I mean the fact that you, I mean
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: first meet her when she's selling flowers in the slums
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: of Midgar, and so you see from the very getting
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: she stands out as somebody who's too good to be there.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: And really she's I just say, too good to be
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: in this world at all. You know, she's just like
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: overly nice, overly sympathetic. I mean you first time you
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: like meaningfully really encounter her is when you when Cloud
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: comes crashing through the church and you lay on her flowers.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: And so she is this sanctuary, she is this safety
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: she is this vision of beauty that is inhabits a
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: very un beautiful place and so and not to mention,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I mean just her her music, like her theme, really
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: captures this sorrowful beauty in a particularly poignant way where
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: you know, you, if I were playing this game now
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Fresh for the first time, then basically as soon as
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I heard her music, I would feel like she's probably
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: gonna die, uh, just because of that heaviness to it.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: So I think that she really does serve this very
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I think poetic element to the narrative that accomplishes it
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: really well. She is this thing that doesn't really belong
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: there and is taken away too soon. But what else
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: do we have to say about Earth?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my take on her is always she
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: just represents purity as kind of how the story is
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: presenting her, which does make it very amusing, and that
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: she has a somewhat more feisty personality it seems like
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: she should for that type, which does make her kind
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: of fun. But yeah, like her dying, like that's that
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: purity being taken away, and like that reflecting the level
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: of corruption that's going on, not just in terms of
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: how horrible sets Froth is which it does deliver I'm
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: making you hate Seph Frof, But it also I think
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: represents the corruption that's going on with the planet itself
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: because she's like she kind of represents the planet, who's
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: like a major part of the story's themes because it's
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: a very environmentalist theme and personifies the planet almost like
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: in adeafic sense, and she is like the strongest connection
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: to that, And so when she's being killed, it's like
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that's part of the planet itself being attacked and they're
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: finally losing that last person because she's the last of
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: her race who has that strong connection, and they're from
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: that point on the just trying to figure out how
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: do you even go on to that point? Like can
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: the planet be saved now that this most pure representative
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: of the planet is gone. So that's kind of how
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I take her role. She's also interesting that she's kind
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: of a fake out love interest for Cloud as well,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: because it's very clear that he's drawn to her, and
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: it's not really obvious until after she's gone that like
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: that relationship had some things that weren't going to quite work,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: most of it being her attachment to Zach in the past,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: which if you're a played seven rebirth. It goes more
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: into that and at least helped me understand that dynamic
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: of her character a little better, because yeah, like it
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: feels like she can't quite love Cloud in the way
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: that he needs to be loved. And that's where I
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: think this is one of the more interesting love triangles
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: and video games between Cloud and her and Tifa, because
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Tifa is the one that Cloud needs, but that's not
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: really obvious until Earth is removed from the story, because
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: and then you realize, Okay, here's where Tifa is really
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: needed for Cloud that Eric probably couldn't fulfill. So and
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: I realized, like, as I'm talking, like you get into
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: kind of I am not a feminist, but I understand
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: the feminist critique of a lot of stories where a
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: lot of the women are defined in terms of their
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: relationship to a male character. But like, I don't know,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think you can take that. I think I
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: don't think you can look at Tifa and Earth and
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: not look at them in terms of what they mean
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: for Cloud, because they do have very significant meanings that
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: plays into how their role in the story as a whole.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: So it's a bunch of jumble thoughts, but that's my
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: take on and the thing it's true.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, plus Cloud's the main characteristic naturally, you know
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: that they're going to orient around him, and that kind
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: of gets that kind of what I was getting at,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: and that in a certain sense, she doesn't belong there.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, even as a potential love interest for Cloud,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: that you know, she she's this flower girl in the
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: slums like that, that indicates like there's something about her
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: that doesn't really belong there. And I think the same
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: thing happened to the Cloud, that she she represents something
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: that's wistful if it's something that he might even desire,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: but not something that he needs. What he needs that
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: grounding agent. And you know another thing, as you're you're
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: talking about you know her, you know how Sepharroth engages
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: with her. In many ways, Eris is more of the
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: anti Sepharrath than even Cloud is, right in that, you know,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: she is the true ancient, the true cetera, whereas Sephroth
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: sort of claims that identity as an eight, as an ancient,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: or as an inheritor of the rights of the ancient
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: something like that. Because I mean Genova his mother, so
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: to speak. You know, she was framed at least at
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: one point as being an ancient, and so he kind
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: of takes on that that identity, and so he gets
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: the sense that, like, the planet belongs to me, whereas
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: she would say I belong to the planet. You know,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I I exist to serve the planet as my mother
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: of sorts, he claims, you know, a different maternal foundation,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: and out of that desires to consume the planet. He
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: thinks a planet ought to work and to serve his
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: need for you know, deification or whatever. And so you know,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: she is the the symbol of kind of the beauty,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: the real, the life itself, whereas he is the reverse
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: side of that, of the nehilistic everything belongs to me,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: and but also I am nothing. And so I think
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: that that that contrast really does provide a powerful dynamic
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: between the Airtephyroth, which is exactly why Sepharroth feels his
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: need to kill her. You know, there's that that moment
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: when Sepharroth is kind of watching her and you know
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: he just said, You see him say to himself, you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I've got to do something about this one. And then
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, things are not going to go
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: well from there, David, any thoughts on on airs or Earth.
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be labor the point.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: But that's why Barrett's the one you need to take
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: on the Ferris Wheel date to see the fireworks, because
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: that's the funniest, the funniest option for sure, that you
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: don't have to pick between the two of them. You
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: just take your bro He's just sitting there.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: It's funny.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: You should even if you don't play probablysod Rebirth, you
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: should watch the cut seeds of all the dates of
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: the different characters because they are very amusing.
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: But yeah, on that topic though, the church that is
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: a weird outlier in the story that is never dealt with,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: Like what is this religion? This is a very Christian
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: looking church that is buried under the slums. It's an
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: interesting picture when you see the wide shot of this
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: traditional Western church underneath the giant Midgar plate. But there's
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: no other real occurrence of this religion anywhere in the world.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: It's all just I mean, I guess we're talking characters.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's already been an hour we've been discussing.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: But the planet is kind of a character in this
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: and that's that's a weird aspect of it to me,
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: because I've spent a lot of time thinking about that
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: over the years, because you know, when you get to
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: Cosmo Canyon and you talk to boogen Hagen, he lays
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: out in detail, you know, when somebody dies. You know,
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: he's got a whole PowerPoint three D power point that
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: he shows. You know, they're the life energy returns to
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: the life stream and then you know it pops up
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: as a tree over here on the other side of
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: the planet. So when they harvest the Maco energy, it's
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: harvesting the planet's energy. And I get it's an ecological theme,
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: but the weird thing is how how muddy it ends
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: up being, because you know, yeah, we're we're damaging our
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: planet by using so much of the oil that we
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: draw out of the ground so quickly. But in Final
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: Fantasy seven, it's not some pantheistic respect all life theme,
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: like the bad guys are knowingly draining the literal lifeblood
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: of their planet for fuel that's just like made from
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: the souls basically of everything.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: That has dyed and returned to the planet.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: Like it's an it's a next level of of evil,
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: like It's not just hey, we should watch out for
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: how much CO two we're pumping into the atmosphere. It's
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: like you are, you are consuming this living thing that
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: we are are a part of. And so I think
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: the whole aspect of the the planet, creating the weapons,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: the these kaiju basically that are fighting back against Genova
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: and eventually, you know, against Shinrah and just seeing people
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: as the source of its pain, I thought was a
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: fascinating aspect that you have these. You know, first you
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: have the what is it the sapphire weapon that gets
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: shot by the cannon. That was a great scene of
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: it speeding through the ocean towards that. And then you
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: have I don't remember what the white weapon that gets
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: shot by the cannon that they put on Midgar. But yeah,
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: by the way, Trivia, like three of those weapons were
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: added for the US release. They weren't there in the
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: original Japanese release, and then there was an international version
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: that re released the US release in Japan with the
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: improvements they gave us. But I don't know, I just
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: thought that was a really clever, a clever aspect of
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: the planet actually trying to defend itself against the thing
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: is that the inhabitants of the surface and Genova, which
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: I guess was an alien thing that kind of crashed
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: there and is infecting it.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And also, so what I'm hearing is the weapons are inse.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: R yes, yeah, and Meteor.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: So Sephiroth summons meteor, right or that's his plan to
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: destroy the Earth with meteor, And that's kind of a
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: throwback to the Medio, which is actually Meteor, the spell
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: that Tella, the Old Wizard in Final Fantasy for is
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: trying to learn and he ultimately kills himself by casting
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: I just think that's an interesting little tie in. There
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: was this ultimate spell in that game, and it's the
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: ultimate spell that's bringing down a cataclysm on.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: The Earth in this game.
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: I got way far afield when you asked me to
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: say something about Erth there, but I'm worried that I'm
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: not going to find the opportunity to say some of
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: these random thoughts that hit my mind.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Well, Earth does tie into like a lot of the
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: main themes of the story, the ecological themes, which, without
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: diet again tangenting too much, that is where I think
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: my main criticism of the story come from, is like
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like the ecological theme is a little overplayed
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: for how interesting it is in this story. Like, for one,
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like a worship a mother nature thing,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: which I never like those kinds of themes, partly from
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: being a Christian, but also I don't know, it gets
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: weirdly convoluted. It's like, like it is is a story
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: that I feel like bites off a bit more than
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: it can chew in terms of being able to explain
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: anything to you in ways that are relatable and interesting.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Some things, the things that are centered around the character
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: still manage to remain interesting, so like Cloud's exidential crisis
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: may really interesting even though it's almost a possible to
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: understand on a first play through what thing is going
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: on with them. But the things like like like you said,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: all the complexities of the planet, and like why was
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Shinra like like eating itself eating the planet alive when
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: it's like they were all going to die too, that
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: kind of thing. I feel like that could have been
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: explored a little more effectively than it was in the story.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: But that's my main criticism.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a very decentralized story, at
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: least looking at the main arc. You know, it has
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: a very postmodern feel to it. But in the midst
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: of all that, you know, there are these anchors, mostly
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: centered on the characters. I think that keep it from
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: going into too far into the postmodern direction, like there's
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: real meaning and they're these places to stand on solid
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: ground throughout. But you know, I'm actually okay with a
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: lot of what they do with live streaming Maco all
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: that stuff, recognizing that, you know, this is a secondary world,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: and so obviously if I'm reading this in a you know, text,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: and it's meant to clearly be a parable like even
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: though yes, obviously the people who made this game, you
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: know that they have some agenda a play here, that's
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: for sure, But I don't get the impression that they're
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: over selling their hand in that I can appreciate this
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: is a secondary world and it's not meant to be
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: a one to one with our primary world, or at
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: least that's that's how I read it. And so you know,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Maco is obviously not oil. At least it's more than oil.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: It's it's so I don't know, I'm okay with a
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: lot of what they dud kind of suspending some of
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: my primary world understanding of the way that things are.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so I going going back to characters, and
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: I'm totally fine with these divergences. They're all they're all related.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: See who would be the next one to discuss who?
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: I guess read thirteen with the next one that would
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: show up in the narrative. I don't the least interesting character.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: He's uh yeah, there's a weird sort of Native American
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: kind of a theme going through all of that, and
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: his true name and his father and all that stuff.
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: But uh yeah, I always thought it was a cool
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: character to have on the team and stuff, But right,
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: he's not.
• 56:23
  Speaker 9: I think, Uh, you.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: You played.
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: Rebirth, Micah, Yeah, I feel like they do some weird
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: things with him in that, but I haven't played it,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: and again, sorry, save it for later.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that I liked him that much
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: better even in Rebirth. Most of the characters benefit massively
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: from a remake of Rebirth. That's one of the reason
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: why I'm a fan of them, Like, that's why Barret
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: became my favorite character. But yeah, Red thirteen, I'm not
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: sure if I understand him much better as a character. Yeah, yeah,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: I never use him. I'm not really interested in him.
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: He's kind of a picture of the cruelty an experimentation
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: that they Shinrai's doing, I think for the most part.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: But and then there's Kate Sith, which should actually be
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: pronounced ketsch apparently because it's Scottish Gaelic for cat fairy.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: That's like a mythological character. But I'm everybody looks at
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: you funny when you say ketch. So in Japanese it's
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: written out ketoshi, but even Square says no, in English
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: it's Kate Sith, just because they don't want to argue
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: with people about it. But his character is really hard
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: to understand because he's a Shinron employee controlling a robot,
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: and at one point they make a big deal out
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: of him sacrificing himself, but they know it's just like
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: a robot, that's sacrifice.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: He's fine. But and then immediately after he sacrifices himself,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: the next one shows out right like there's no delight,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: he's already there. Yeah, yeah, that is a super strange
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: character stopped to bottom, Like, I don't know, have you
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: gotten to the part and remake where the plate falls.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil it for you. But have
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: you gotten that far? Wait, it's like near the beginning
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: or in remake, because remake only handles the stuff in Yeah, no,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think I'm there yet. Okay,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: so this is not an interesting spot. But when that happens,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: you get a random like cameo of Kate Sith, like
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: the cat walking up and just like holding his head
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: over heads his hands in despair. And if you don't
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: know who that character is, it's the most weird random thing.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: Why is this cartoon cat here at this incredibly dramatic moment? Yeah? Yeah,
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: very strange character. Yeah, it's another character I just don't
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: really care a whole lot about, honestly.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: And then there's Vincent, which a lot of people like
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: because he's really the broody you know.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I feel like he has potential to be a really
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: cool character, but his I feel like his writing is
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: kind of like to be honest.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: And then there's uh is it Ufi?
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Ufi is probably the most meaningful character the ones
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: we haven't talked about, partly because she represents Wu.
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: Tai and she's entirely missible if you don't do the
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: specific thing to get her to show up and steal
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: your material, then you don't even recruit her, so.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Right, you have to hit the right dialogutory options as well,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: or yeah, you lose her, which I still I don't know.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: I don't have a whole lot to say about her either,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Do either of you have something to contribute?
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 59:43
  Speaker 9: Kind of annoying, Yeah, go ahead, David, No, Yeah, she's
• 59:49
  Speaker 9: sort of the Japanese character from japan Land in the world.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but it is very much a japan Land.
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So we've got Native American land and japan Land
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: and then vaguely Eastern European land where where Cloud and
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: was it Nibblelheim is the town there?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: But yeah, well yeah that's Cloud and Tie sometimes.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so they kind of tried to make regional areas.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Around the world.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's obviously Americans, that's right, born.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: And raised in the slums.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 5: And Sid.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: We haven't talked about Sid at all. I do think
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: is it rocket town? They'd really just call it rocket.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Town kids actually, which it does make some sense in
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: the story because it's like this was clearly a town
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: that existed to build in launch rockets, like because this
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: is like the general space program that they just abandoned.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: It's really clever that you just have this kind of
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: leaning tower monument to his worst memory just looming there
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: forever in the town.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: And but you know, you do it right.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: He gets his redemption and I enjoy that.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He Uh, this would be the second fan fantasy
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I think where you get to control a SID character,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: because like this is a recurring thing. You have a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: said he's an airship pilot, like it was just the
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: newest iteration, because I know if I was four, you
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: had a said. But these are two very different sids.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Like this is not a dwarf, this is a dude.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: And the Papa Said remake version makes him kind of
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: kind of a cool guy. I feel like I like him.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: He's okay.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: I just I don't feel like he has much personality
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: to work with.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he's another character with something of a
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: failed past, dealing with regrets, dealing with guilt, you know,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: un fulfilled dreams, and so it's he had something, though
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: I don't consider his arc to be pivotal to the
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: story like some of the others that we've discussed, but
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I usually use him of my party.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: So there's there's something.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a good character to have on the team.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: And again, sort of like Tifa, he's a solid guy
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: that's there when they need him to do it, you know,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: to show up with the airship at the exact right moment,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: right when stubby Armtifa is running down the barrel of
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: the That's another one that's odd is how sometimes they
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: have the weird primitive model in the pre rendered cut scenes,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: but most of the time they don't.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: It's just so strange.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: But I don't know, like I think it just goes
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: to show that the strength of the storytelling doesn't really
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: rely on the graphics holding up. But I say that
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: and then this is one of my son's favorite games
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: as well. But when I first played through it with him,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: he was very young, and when we got to the
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: part where Eric died, I didn't get much of reaction
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: out of him, and I said, I thought, you know,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: I thought that would affect you more, and he was like,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, it was sad, but the graphics were just
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: too bad for me to take it seriously. He doesn't
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: feel that way now, but that was his elementary school
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: reaction to it.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: That's sad.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: He has played through it more times than I have.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: I believe.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I think we covered all the characters.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, is there anything else that we just haven't
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: hit on, anything related to this game that you'd like
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: to bring up?
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: Well, we covered the playable characters. Yes, that's obviously like
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: others like sephar Rufus all the others maybe should go
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: and hit Yeah, he is the centerpiece. I may start
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: this on it downer and then you guys can bring
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: it up. He's probably one of my least favorite fund
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: my CE villains, like coming after Keofka, who I just
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: love because he's so fun and horrible. Is just like
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: I'm evil and I'm cool and I got a big
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: sword and I killed Eric. That's what feels like. I
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: know he's got this drama with his mob thing with Genova,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: but I don't know. It's just his presence is obviously
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: a big part of the story. Just him being there.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: It's like his looming threat. I feel like he's used
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: almost more of like a force of nature than like
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: a meaningful character unto himself, which is not bad, like
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: Kea is kind of like that role too. It's just
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Kepka's more fun than just me. But uh, I don't know.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of people think he's like the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: coolest villain ever.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: So well, I mean, there's there's not a lot of
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: competition in Final Fantasy games. You've got Oldamasia who you
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: never hear of until you got a fighter, and there's
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: ex Death who I don't know.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Chaos, You're right, that's the worst villain. So I mean, at.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: Least he's he's there through the whole game and you
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: and I'm sorry, I guess this was inevitable that we're
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: gonna have to talk about Rebirth remake a bit remake
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: because it bothered me that sefi Roth shows up in
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: remake at all, because you do not see sefi Roth
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: until you've left Midguarb in the actual original game, Like,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: you know, you get to the place where the giant
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: snake is impaled, and they're saying, did sephi Rov do this?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: Like he's just this kind of a boogeyman to you
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: up until that point, and you've seen him in flashbacks
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: a little bit and things like that, but he's not
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: like dogging your heels and antagonizing you as you go along.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: I think I lost my own train of thought there.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: But well, one thing I want to say about sephi
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: Roth is you know, you've got Genova, which is very
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: close to Jehovah. I never have felt like that was
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: an accident, but I couldn't figure out why they would.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: It's always unsettled me a little bit.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and then sephi Roth has got to be from
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: the sefi Roth, the Tree of Life chart of you know,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: the ten divine attributes in Jewish cabolic mysticism.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: It's in.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: It's in full metal Alchemist brotherhood on that door. You know,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: they have the ten connected things. I don't know, maybe
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: they just knew about this mystic thing and thought it
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: sounded cool. But I feel like that's at least the
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 4: source of his name.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, that does come from a very long tradition
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: of jerrapeges and anime taking religious symbols and terminology, but
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: completely unanchored to their actual meeting.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean I mean obviously seven in particular.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: I mean I think it does that on a number
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: of occasions. I mean, even like the you know, mid Guard,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: it's obviously fulling on mid Guard, and you know it's
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: and yeah, there's some connection in that. You know, there
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: are these different levels and something like the gods dwell
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: up on the higher plates, so you can kind of
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: come up with some connections, but in large part they
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: just grab things that they just think sound cool. I
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: don't know a lot of you can't really think too
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: deeply on the religious connections that they put into these
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: games or mythological connections. I don't know, there's often something
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: going on there, but yeah, but I definitely agree with
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: with you, David, that he's such a better character as
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: something of a phantom for the beginning or really for
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: most of the game in the original, that even when
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: you encounter him, he's he's someone who's don't like, you
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: never really know what's going on in his head, but
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: you know the fact that you know, for for so
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: all you don't see him at all, and then you
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: kind of feel like you're on his heels when you
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: find the sword in the back of the Shinder President,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: like that is just such a great scene in the original,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: which also provides another pretty strong Kefka connection. You know,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Kefka who killed the emperor and then try to take over.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: There's something sort of rhyming happening here with step Froth
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: killing the President of Shindra that you know he once
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: worked for and then sort of going off to create
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: his own thing evil mission. And I mean the fact
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: that Keefka is obviously it's unhinged character who goes out
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: to deify himself, and that's exactly what Sephroth is doing.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: They're obviously working with some of the pre existing material there.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: But I don't know.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: I really like Sephyarroth in large part because of who
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: he is to Cloud, that he is really the occasion
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: for Cloud's existential crisis and his ongoing existential crisis, and
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: so I appreciate what he does on that psychological level.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: But I will say that, especially most of my recent
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: playthrough that fighting him at the end is it's a
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: very anti climatic thing in that he is such a
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: strong force throughout the game, and to get to the
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: end and he's a pretty easy boss fight, and then
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of like resolution that happens
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: on the character level.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Just you beat him and then it's over. I don't know.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit appointing to me at least.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: That's funny because I was just about to say that
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: I think that moment is great, and I'm glad, and
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: I'm really glad that it's there. I mean, I can
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: get that it's a little anti climactic, but I do
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: feel like it is closure for Cloud, like because you've
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: already had the giant battle with the one winged angel
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: playing and sefi Roth's move that destroys the entire solar system,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: but the solar system is still there somehow, and then
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: after all of that, in a very Samurai movie style
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 4: Cloud just has to square off against sefie Roth and yeah,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: your limit meter just fills up and you just wipe
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: them out and it's finally it's finally over. But I
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: guess it's not really finally over because the franchise was
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 4: too popular, so you never can get true finality when
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: the franchise is popular.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: I definitely want to revisit this conversation when you finish
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: remaking rebeirth Der. There is actually you're talking about the
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: battle being easy, but we can talk again later.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean at this point, I mean, any loose
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: ends if you want to talk about the Turks or
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: anybody else. Yeah, is there's anything else that you want
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: to mention?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: Uh?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a little bit about Rufus because
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: I I do kind of like Rufus as a villain
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: because at the beginning, like like because he's not a
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: primary villain, but he's like very ambitious, I feel like,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: and he doesn't get a lot of scringtime, but for
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: some reason he sticks with me, like because you don't
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: even hear about him until like the president died, like
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: what they would mentioned like several out swords stinging out
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: of him and then already gone, and so like, up
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: to that point, the Shindrich's President was not that big
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: a deal. He was just kind of there. He's just
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: like your typical evil CEO. And then there everybody's like, ah, crap,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: Rufus is coming. And then you're like, who's Rufus? And
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: he shows up and then you have this one on
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: one fact between him and Cloud. It's almost like he
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: and Cloud like have a rivalry going on, which again
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: they play it more and remake and I can't mention
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: make I need to stop. But but yeah, like he's
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: like again, it's like one of those characters who's like
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: designed to look cool, where he's got the long white
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: trench coat and then he and the Turks just kind
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: of nag you the whole rest of the game, following
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: you around and then later like they feed like Shinra's
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: like the dystopia. Dystopian themes around Shinra, I think actually
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: are kind of interesting how they're used thematically, Like because
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: you get the big parade where he's being announced as
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: the new president, and that's where you have the fun
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: mini game where you are like moving your gun in
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: the right positions and then it looks like he's going
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: to be kind of maybe not a bad guy for
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: a bit and then suddenly all, no, he's going to
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: be bad. Uh. And then later on when after the
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: big initial big event at the crater, when you're haul
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: back as prisoners into s headquarters, it's like there, it's
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: like that's dark. They're like about to put you in
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: like a gas chamber and kill you, and like they
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: have this sham trial and like that that to me
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: actually might have been for me one of the darkest
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: parts of the game, because it's so evocative of like
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: actual like tyrannical totalitarian societies and like the worst horrors
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: we hear about from them, and like Rufus is like
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: at the center of all that, and so by that
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: point he's not very sympathetic. So then when the big
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: white weapon just shoots him and like you see him
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: staring like defiantly at it. Cool to the last it's
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I don't miss you, like you are
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: kind of a crabby person in the end. So I
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: don't know his his arc I find interesting. I find
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: him a more interesting villain than Ce. Yeah, it was
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: kind of funny to me when you're talking about the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: changes he's to make, and you know, he basically says, well,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: my father was greedy, but I'm evil. That's basically what
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: he says.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: So basically, yeah, yeah, any.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: Anything else you want to mention.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, let me just talk about the gameplay
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: for a minute. I love the material system. I thought
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: that was really clever and how the different weapons that
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: you find have different limitations on them, whether or not
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 4: the materials slots are connected to let you have materia
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: that modify them. I really enjoyed that and fiddling with that,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: and it keeps the combat interesting because you're like, Okay,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: I'm going to equip this so I can continue to
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: level up you know, the ice magic or whatever it
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: is that you want to keep leveling up. So it
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: keeps it fresh throughout the game. And I loved Golden Saucer.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: When I first played the game this, it wasn't common
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: for games to have a ton of extra stuff you
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: could do that you didn't have to do when you
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: know before this, Like there's a roller coaster, you can
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: ride around shooting stuff for points. There's a battle arena,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: there's arcade games, which was really just an excuse for
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: the most part, to redo sequences that were otherwise one
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: offs in the game.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: But I just thought that was really clever.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: And the annoying musical loop that plays through the whole
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 4: thing just really feels like a cheap amusement park that
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: you're at. Andrews bob in his head thinking about it. Yeah,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: you can recall it at a moment's notice. It never
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: goes away. But yeah, I just there were so many
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: things that they get right about the pacing and just
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: keeping it interesting in this that even you know, like
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: I enjoyed Final Fantasy eight, but there are places where
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 4: it really really slowed down for me.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: I haven't played it in a long time.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: I love nine, but I've found most every one in
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: it forgettable. As much as the game is great, I
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 4: don't know, I know, micaht Okay, Yeah, vv all right, true, Yeah,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: I need to I need to replay that. Y'all got
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: to give me enough time to replay eight and nine
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: before we talk about those. But I just I think
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: it's kind of a perfect storm in a lot of ways.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: But the music we talked about that a little bit earlier,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: but there there are so many songs in this game
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: that I think are are really really good. And and
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: when you get to the closing the way that I
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: think it was Josh that mentioned like like a John
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: Williams soundtrack, the way that it pulls the themes together,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: and hints of parts of themes like of the high
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: wind or of Tifa in different characters, and and then
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: Eric there at the very end to evoke emotion from
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: all that you've experienced leading up to that. I think
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: it's just it's really well done.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: And of course on Golden Saucer, I mean you got
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: to mention the Mughal Tamagotchi game.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: I hate all the many games so much. That's my
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: least favorite part. Yeah, but I mean they're yeah.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: On the gameplay level, I mean, I think the material
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: system is probably my favorite magic system of the final
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: facing games that I've played. I very much enjoyed that,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: and yeah, gold Saucer. I mean the fact that this
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: is largely a pretty heavy game to have that kind
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: of lightness to it, well you know, until it gets
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: really dark, but it gets happy again.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: Lot of really just cool elements to kind of hit
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: on various dynamics of just the feel of what the
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: games meant to evoke. And so yeah, definitely, Like, can
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: you have anything else to mention just on just kind
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: of general vibes or whatever.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I feel like we've covered a lot
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: of it. Like David said, I think the gameplay is
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: durally fantastic outside of the mini games, which I've already
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: expressed my disdain for. But yeah, one of my favorite series,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: the Foul Trail series, uses a system very similar to
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: Materia where you're slotting things into in that case not weapons,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: but it's like they're collecting gyms that you're just applying
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: to her combinations to give you different abilities.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: I think that's overall a very good system, like gives
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: great customization, and yeah, it's just it's fast and addictive,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: and the fast is very important because a lot of
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: RPGs do not understand the value of speed and like
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: not wasting your time, which I appreciate. The less said
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: about the Choco boats, the better.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 9: Uh.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's it is a really really good game.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: I think is still very much worth playing now.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of speed, recent play throughout the new Steam
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: version where you can do three time speed, which makes
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: battles really exciting. You just kind of move like really
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: fast before you have your party wipe.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's it's fun.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: And you know, I the someone's I thought were really cool,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: especially when when I first and they're still cool. I mean,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: especially like neo Bahamas and there's a lot of really
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: cool visuals wrapped up into that as repetitive as to
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: may get over time.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: But yeah, and I think the main takeaway is if
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: someone really close to you dies, you need to go
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 4: snowboarding and pop some balloons as soon as you can.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: Right after that, if we take one thing away, that
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: should probably be it. Well, I always forget that happens
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: like immediately after. It's so weird. Yep.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: Well, on that note, I guess we'll go ahead and
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: wrap our discussion of the original Final Fantasy seven. Next
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: time I should be ready to discuss Remake and so
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: what we'll go from there, although I know David will
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: be avoiding that one.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: I will be unavailable regardless, so it'll work out right.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: I'll try to be there because I really like Remake cool,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: so we'll talk about hopefully I'll be wanted to buy that,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: but yeah, going wrapped there and the time
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: H