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Mini: What Scared Us As Kids · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do What We Do.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to Why We Do What We Do Mini. I'm
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: your host, Abraham. And I'm your host, Shane.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: that humans and non-human animals are scared of and what
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: they do.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: It's the first time I've said that for any of
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  Speaker 2: the Halloween ones.
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  Speaker 1: In the month of October, we focus primarily our episodes
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  Speaker 1: on discussions of the spooky variety in honor and celebration
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  Speaker 1: of Halloween and the fact that it is our favorite
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  Speaker 1: holiday here.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And I think this is the last Halloween mini ever. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: it is.
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  Speaker 3: It is. I mean, so far, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Last Halloween mini ever so far.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Ever so far.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, great.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And so this one is actually going to be kind
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: of a little bit different from our normal discussions in
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  Speaker 1: a way. Maybe it won't sound that way, but whatever.
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  Speaker 1: We'll get into it. If you're joining us for the
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  Speaker 1: first time, then welcome. I hope you enjoy what you
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  Speaker 1: hear in this discussion. You're catching us here toward the end,
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  Speaker 1: talk more about those things at the end of this discussion.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: But this is a mini, it's a short form type
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: of discussion that we do on Mondays, and then we
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: release our full length on Wednesdays. But this way, we
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  Speaker 1: can just get a quick little appetizer, something to whet
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  Speaker 1: the palate, if you will, or get the noodle working,
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  Speaker 1: get some curiosity going.
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  Speaker 3: I love it.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe just provide some background noise for whatever you're doing. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: All right.
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  Speaker 2: Is there anything that I missed or that you'd like
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  Speaker 2: to add before we jump into it?
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  Speaker 3: No, I think we're ready.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. This is an interesting one.
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  Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about things that scares us
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  Speaker 1: as kids and scares kids maybe more broadly speaking, but
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  Speaker 1: we'll get into that.
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  Speaker 2: I'll start with the personal stories here. So when I
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  Speaker 2: was young....
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  Speaker 1: The things I was afraid of when I was very
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  Speaker 1: young were monsters and ghosts, particularly monsters under the bed
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  Speaker 1: and monsters in the closet and then ghosts in scary,
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  Speaker 1: dark places. That was something that scared me a lot. Obviously,
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  Speaker 1: I was also scared of things that would jump out
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  Speaker 1: at me and stuff that was very loud, stuff like that.
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  Speaker 1: And particularly when I was surprised, I would get scared.
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  Speaker 1: I was definitely frightened of old, dark places that were
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  Speaker 1: in disrepair. And again, mostly thinking of it as ghosts.
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  Speaker 1: containing ghosts, but I don't know, Shane, what were some
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  Speaker 1: things you were afraid of when you were, you were
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  Speaker 1: a wee little one?
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  Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, I think I was, I was mostly afraid
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  Speaker 3: of monsters, but the ones that I remember being most
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: afraid of were like, like movie monsters. So like I
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: was terrified of Freddy Krueger, like really, truly terrified, like
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  Speaker 3: would have like panic attacks about him. And then I
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: would have recurring nightmares about xenomorphs.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: From Alien. So that, like, is one that, like... And again,
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  Speaker 3: those were when I was younger, but, like, I still have, like...
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  Speaker 3: When it comes to xenomorphs, I still have moments where
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  Speaker 3: I'm like, I kind of catch my breath a little
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  Speaker 3: bit because I'm like, oh, this is still a little
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  Speaker 3: bit scary. I'm still having a reaction to this. As
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  Speaker 3: I got older, I think what I am afraid of
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  Speaker 3: now is just eternal damnation, but that's a different conversation
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  Speaker 3: for a different day. That's something I talk to my
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  Speaker 3: therapist about. But for now, my childhood fears were, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: mostly monsters, movie monsters, stuff that was going to be harmful,
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  Speaker 3: that you couldn't stop, that you're helpless to stop, stuff
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  Speaker 3: like that.
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  Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense.
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  Speaker 1: And we'll get into some of the sort of the
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  Speaker 1: things that are generic categories of what scares kids. We're
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  Speaker 1: going to talk about things that scare us as kids,
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  Speaker 1: why we come to fear them and why they don't
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  Speaker 1: scare us anymore as adults, or at least some of us.
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  Speaker 1: And also kind of like what our fears morph into
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  Speaker 1: over time and that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So it might come as a surprise to some, but
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  Speaker 3: the things about which we are afraid are largely tied
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  Speaker 3: into our cultures. We have some natural reactions to things
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  Speaker 3: that elicit fear responses without having to learn them first.
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  Speaker 3: You know, like the little Albert experiment by John Watson
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  Speaker 3: is a really good example of that. You know, like
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  Speaker 3: we made this kid afraid of rabbits and then fuzzy
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  Speaker 3: things and all those things that go along with that.
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  Speaker 3: But beyond that, most of what we come to fear
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  Speaker 3: is given to us through language.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is the cultural things about which we learn
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  Speaker 1: that then start to spark some fear. Now, darkness is
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  Speaker 1: a thing that kids are commonly scared of, and it
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  Speaker 1: can be scary for very practical reasons. Most of us,
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  Speaker 1: there are definitely people who are born in darkness and
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  Speaker 1: they spend their whole lives in darkness, and darkness does
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  Speaker 1: not frighten them because it is not different from anything
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  Speaker 1: they're used to. But for those of us who depend
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: on visual perception to interact with the world, we're We
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  Speaker 1: use it, our visual perception, to do things like identify
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  Speaker 1: and gauge threats that might be around or like other
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  Speaker 1: dangers that might be there. And when that sensory modality
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  Speaker 1: that we rely on so heavily suddenly stops working because,
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  Speaker 1: for example, there is insufficient light, that is, when it
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  Speaker 1: goes dark, and our eyes are not doing the thing
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  Speaker 1: that they normally do, which is provide us information about
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  Speaker 1: our surroundings... We can no longer detect those possible threats,
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  Speaker 1: or at least not as easily, because they can be
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  Speaker 1: so easily hidden by the dark. Right. And so it's
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  Speaker 1: reasonable to believe that you might be afraid of the
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  Speaker 1: dark because the dark can contain things that we no
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  Speaker 1: longer can tell whether or not they're there.
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  Speaker 2: And I think the.
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  Speaker 1: The easy assumption is to lean into, well, if I
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  Speaker 1: can't tell if something's there, the safer assumption is to
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  Speaker 1: assume that something is there. Because if I assume that
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  Speaker 1: something is there and I'm right, then I've protected myself.
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  Speaker 1: And I assume that something is there and I'm wrong,
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  Speaker 1: then nothing happens and I'm fine. But if I assume
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  Speaker 1: there's not something there and it is, then I'm in
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  Speaker 1: serious danger. And if I assume that there's not something
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  Speaker 1: there and it's not, then I'll be fine. But again,
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  Speaker 1: the safer option is to assume that there is, if
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  Speaker 1: you will. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: When you said some people were born in the darkness,
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  Speaker 3: it made me think of that quote from Bane where
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  Speaker 3: he's like, I.
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  Speaker 2: Was born in darkness, molded by it.
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  Speaker 3: So it was just one of those things where it's like,
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  Speaker 3: when you said it, I went, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I know that line. I know that.
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  Speaker 3: I know that voice.
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  Speaker 1: But we were teeing up this idea of like how
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  Speaker 1: cultural practice helps shape the things that we're afraid of.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's why people are afraid of ads.
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  Speaker 2: All right, we're back.
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  Speaker 1: We've been setting up the things that people are afraid of,
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  Speaker 1: what we were afraid of, what kids are afraid of.
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  Speaker 1: But the fact that we have to have some culture,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of those fears are developed from language, which
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  Speaker 1: is fostered by the culture in which we find ourselves. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, for instance, like, when we're afraid of things, like,
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  Speaker 3: I have to have a concept of what a ghost
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  Speaker 3: is to be able to be scared of it, right? To, like,
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  Speaker 3: some degree, because ghosts are pretty high concept and all that.
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  Speaker 3: But since ghosts don't exist, where would I get such
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  Speaker 3: an idea? Well, those cultural practices are going to be
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  Speaker 3: the things that shape that up, the language around that,
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  Speaker 3: how we describe them, how, like, what, it's not even
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  Speaker 3: just what we're describing, it's, like, what they do, how
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  Speaker 3: they interact with the world around us, what they can
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  Speaker 3: do to us, the, all those things that kind of, like,
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  Speaker 3: all the rules that we establish in relation to these, like,
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  Speaker 3: these oogie boogies and boogie men, boogie people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we would never develop a natural fear of ghosts
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  Speaker 1: because we would never encounter a ghost because they don't exist.
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  Speaker 1: Unless we had a culture and language that established that
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  Speaker 1: that was a thing that did exist. And so then
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  Speaker 1: we can be afraid of it. But like, yeah, if
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  Speaker 1: you were to find a culture that didn't have a
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  Speaker 1: concept of ghosts, then they would have no fear of
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  Speaker 1: ghosts because they would never encounter them because it's not
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  Speaker 1: a natural phenomenon.
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  Speaker 2: It's not something you would ever actually encounter in the
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  Speaker 2: real world.
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  Speaker 1: It only exists in perceptions and biases that are cultivated
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  Speaker 1: through like language essentially. So our fears develop out of
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  Speaker 1: a learning history with concepts introduced in our culture. Once
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  Speaker 1: a concept is introduced and its associations are created, that's
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  Speaker 1: when we can start to have thoughts and feelings about
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  Speaker 1: the thing. And the associations are an important part because
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  Speaker 1: if you take something like unicorns don't exist, but we're
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  Speaker 1: not afraid of them because the context in which they
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  Speaker 1: are described, usually... is jubilant and whimsical.
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  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: For a lot of it, right? But like ghosts, witches, demons, etc.
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  Speaker 1: These are created with an association specifically to bad and scary, evil,
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  Speaker 1: dangerous things.
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  Speaker 3: Right. And furthermore, kids are often less afraid of or...
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  Speaker 3: at least don't really think about more abstract concepts that
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: require a higher level of understanding of systems. So for instance,
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  Speaker 3: they are unlikely to be afraid of getting sick, getting cancer.
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  Speaker 3: Although we've met some kids who do have this fear,
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: a fear of crushing debt or losing valuable assets or
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: a fear of many social stigmas. Although these do start
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: to kind of develop fairly early. And fairly quickly.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so as our language develops, so too do our fears,
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  Speaker 1: things about which we used to be afraid, such as ghosts, ghouls,
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  Speaker 1: and monsters. The thing is, like, we learn about them
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  Speaker 1: through their language, through storytelling, but then they never materialize.
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  Speaker 1: We never find any evidence of their existence, so we
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  Speaker 1: eventually start realizing... that they aren't real, and we stop.
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  Speaker 2: Being afraid of them.
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  Speaker 1: And meanwhile, our awareness of real and dangerous things that
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: are out there, it grows. We learn about and we
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  Speaker 1: start to become afraid of things like intruders, car accidents,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: insurance companies, Trump getting elected to office, and we grow
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  Speaker 1: new fears instead. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, kids are often afraid of visceral images depicting bodily harm,
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: particularly humans. And to that point, any bodily distortions can
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  Speaker 3: be frightening to children. Tattoos, body modifications, and injuries such
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: as blood, amputations, missing body parts, or other substantial modifications
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: or differences. I could tell you that one of the
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: movies that freaked me out the most when I was
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  Speaker 3: a kid was a movie called Nothing But Trouble. And
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  Speaker 3: I'd only seen it once, and it's a bad movie.
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  Speaker 3: It's really, really bad. But there's like a little bit
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  Speaker 3: of body horror in it. And it freaked me out
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  Speaker 3: when I was a kid, it made me so uncomfortable.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't understand it. I didn't understand it was practical
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  Speaker 3: makeup and magic and stuff, but it really like made
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  Speaker 3: me uncomfortable.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of the things that I recall being the
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  Speaker 1: most frightened of. And like, cause I remember seeing the
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  Speaker 1: movie poltergeist when I was very, very young, the first one,
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  Speaker 1: the original one. And that scene with the dude's face
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  Speaker 1: melting in the mirror really, really scared me. and like
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  Speaker 1: an alien, the chest bursting thing. Like, yeah, that body
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  Speaker 1: stuff is, is really some of the most frightening to see.
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  Speaker 3: And to that point, like how unfair is it? Like
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  Speaker 3: it is really scary and really frightening. And like the
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: eighties and nineties were like prime real.
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  Speaker 2: Estate for that.
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  Speaker 3: Like, like just like it was every one of those movies,
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  Speaker 3: you always use practical effects and they were always really
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: good at always really horrifying.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, several movies have done that, uh, in modern
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: times too, but definitely, uh, to your point that has been, um,
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  Speaker 1: That I think was something lost by relying too heavily
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  Speaker 1: on things like CGI is the artistry and the incredible
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  Speaker 1: thing that came from practical effects, makeup, like those sorts
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  Speaker 1: of things. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Now, and you think about like, why is it that
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  Speaker 1: those things are so frightening to kids? And it's a
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  Speaker 1: combination of what a monster could do and the tangible
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  Speaker 1: outcome of an injury. And that's like very scary. You
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: take both the hypothetical and mix it with the real,
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  Speaker 1: like that body horror thing. So to be fair, this
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: will often remain unsettling for most of us for the,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: for like the rest of our lives. Like seeing body
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  Speaker 1: horror things is unsettling to me still. Yeah. And I
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  Speaker 1: think it's part of why the trauma of war leaves
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  Speaker 1: so many people with PTSD is seeing the horrible things
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  Speaker 1: that people are capable of doing to each other. Seeing
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  Speaker 1: mutilated bodies is, again, in violation of the kind of
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: instincts that otherwise propel our species forward. Like, our species
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: moves forward because we generally, generally... Although there are many
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: exceptions to this, I want to make sure I point
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  Speaker 1: that out. Generally, we do not want to harm or
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  Speaker 1: kill each other. We don't like seeing other people hurt
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  Speaker 1: because if we did, our species would not make it.
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  Speaker 1: We would have died a long time ago. And so
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  Speaker 1: as difficult as it is to believe sometimes, given that
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  Speaker 1: so many people do so much violence to each other,
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  Speaker 1: that is not how our species actually evolved. We actually
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: evolved through a system of cooperation. See our episode on
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: what would happen in the event of an apocalypse. for
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: a more historical account of examples of that.
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  Speaker 3: Right. And kids are also scared of other practical things
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: such as being separated from their parents or other safe
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: spaces or familiar things. They're therefore also scared of unfamiliar
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: things like a new place and events and things that
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: are familiar but painful, such as medical procedures or loud
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: or chaotic things like severe weather. So like all of
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: those things make sense that kids will be afraid of those.
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  Speaker 1: And then as they get older, of course, social things
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: start to become much scarier. Performing and speaking in front
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: of others, academic failure or performing on a really big test,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: those become more frightening because they're now couched in more
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: elaborate social context with broader, more abstract relations. So anyway,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: it sort of evolves in that way. It starts with
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: like a mix of things that are practical, very practical.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: You start with things like just loud noises primarily and
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: things that move like that are very abrupt and move
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: very fast at them. Those can be things that are
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: very scary. Things that are painful are obviously scary, but
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  Speaker 1: then beyond that, it starts to morph into some hypothetical
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  Speaker 1: and the mix of the hypothetical with the real, and
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: then it moves into further abstracted and very abstracted. But yeah,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: we learned that because we're never going to encounter real
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: ghosts to not be afraid of them. But then we
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: learned that insurance exists and we should be afraid of it. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I think this is different than like we're not
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: talking about like the trauma of a particular event that
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: creates like a phobia.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Like we're not talking.
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  Speaker 3: About the time that you go to a circus and
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: a clown like scares the out of you. And then
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: now you're going to be afraid of clowns forever because
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: of like this particular singular incident.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: Like we're talking about kind of how language shapes some
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: of this stuff up. Like we do understand that like
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: people have traumatic events and they have traumatic stories. You know,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: somebody who is trapped or locked in a closet could
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: develop claustrophobia as a result of that, you know, because
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: of the intense emotions and feelings they.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Have with that.
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  Speaker 3: But we're kind of more talking about like, it makes
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  Speaker 3: sense that like people develop kind of like a natural
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  Speaker 3: fear of things as a result of languaging rather than
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: just experience alone.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, very much so.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we could actually spend some time just talking about
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: various examples of this, but this is supposed to be
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: a mini, so it's supposed to be short. So I
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: think we can actually probably wrap it up there. But
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: if you have anything else you'd like to add or
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that I forgot, Shane?
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: No, I also want to just point out, I'm no
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: longer afraid of Freddy Krueger because I know what happened
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: and I know why I was afraid of him. And
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: now I'm not afraid of him anymore because I've demystified him,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: but I'm still afraid of chestbursters.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Fair enough. You and Freddy are friends. You and Xenomorph. Yeah,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: we're good.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to tell us your thoughts on things
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: that scared you as kids or Freddy Krueger or other
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: things that we mentioned in here, you can email us
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: directly at info at WWD, WWD podcast.com or reach us
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: on the social media platforms. If you'd like to support us,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: you can leave us a rating and a review, like
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: subscribe or tell a friend. You can also support us
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: financially by heading over to patreon.com slash WWD, WWD podcast.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And there you get ad free episodes, early episodes and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: bonus content. And I'll read your name on the list
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: of supporters at the end of our full length discussions,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: which is I think what everyone's really there for. I mean,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: we do really appreciate the help of all the people
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: who have already made that leap. Thank you so much
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: to every team of people. Thank you for recording with
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: me today, Shane.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap up?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Nope.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Not today.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: All right. Boo.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham. And this
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: is Shane. Why We Do What We Do Mini is out.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Bye.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: going to www.wwdpodcast.com.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: Bye.