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Writers Roundtable: Expert Tips on Finding Your First Clients (with Lynn Smargis & Leo York) · The Daily Writer

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Writer.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with notable writers, as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning and also prepare for the week ahead.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: One of the topics we often discuss on this podcast is doing client work.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I know that not everybody listening to this is interested in that topic or has a goal to do client work or freelance writing.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: However, there's enough writers who would like to make income from their writing by doing client work that I think this episode will be of interest to a large percentage of you.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've never considered doing freelance writing or you've never really thought about that, I encourage you to check out this episode because it's going to give you some great tips on how to get your first freelance client.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really a critical question that a lot of people have when they get into freelancing is how do you get that very first client?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason that's a critical question is because up until that point, you probably wonder if you're going to be able to do this, or you wonder if you have what it takes to be a freelance writer or something along those lines.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: So getting that first client is really important because once that happens, you have more confidence, you can make a little money, of course, and you also have some momentum in your writing business.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very excited to have two guests on this round table episode who are going to share some expert tips on getting that first freelance client.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: The first guest is Lynn Smargis, who is a freelance writer in the area of health and fitness, gluten-free lifestyle, education, science, travel, and educational technology.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's also the host of the gluten-free travel podcast.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: The second guest is Leo York, who is a copywriter who specializes in commercial screenplays.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Leo is the copywriter who popularized using evolutionary behavior as a baseline for content.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And he's also the co-host of the 13th floor podcast.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: In this conversation, we tackle why you should consider freelance writing, how to choose an area of specialization, how to find your first client, how to sell yourself, and so much more.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So even if you're already doing client work, I think you'll really benefit from this episode.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know I learned a ton, and I've been doing freelance writing and ghostwriting for a number of years.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, Leo and Lynn are just a blast.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I love to hang out with these guys.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: They are so much fun, and not only that, they're just really, really great writers.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, here's my conversation with Lynn Smargis and Leo York.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you both for joining me for this episode.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: We are actually on Lynn's Squadcast.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Lynn, thanks for letting us basically dive bomb your squadcast account for this test run.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anytime.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we are here to talk about how to find your first clients.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And before we dive into any questions, let's take a minute, and if both of you could just share a little bit about what you do in terms of freelance work and um a little bit about yourself.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so my name is Lynn Smargis.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my company is right for you.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I started my business about two years ago.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was a full-time middle school teacher, which was super stressful, and I wanted to do something that was more creative.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh took the leap, saved up enough money for to live off of for a few months and jumped right from um being a full-time uh middle school teacher into writing and um loved it and totally dodged a bullet with COVID.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really glad I started working at home a couple years ago.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh worked out really well on a lot of different aspects.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so my specialties in my area that I write in are social media.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do some ghostwriting, website content, and um like blogs and show notes and other content for other podcasters as well.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: You do a whole host of services.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yeah, those are my those are my main ones.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do some other stuff, but those are the ones I enjoy the most for sure.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thanks, Lynn.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Leo, over to you.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, yeah, I'm uh Leo York of Leo Copywriting, and I was grazed on like uh a cattle farm, and I started writing for like periodicals on the internet, uh, cracked and dirt and things of that sort.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that I really liked writing and just sort of fell into copywriting as a result.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm more of a traditional uh copywriter in the sense that I don't do a lot of digital work.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my favorite thing to write are screenplays for audio-visual format or just audio only format.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the commercials that you see on YouTube or Hulu or you know, back when people watch TV, those sorts of uh commercials, they start out as screenplays, and that's what I like to write, but also do brochures and uh other kinds of of more uh physical copy, uh more commonly than like digital ads.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when you mentioned you wrote for cracked, is that the magazine that's kind of like Mad Magazine?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually owned by the same people.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as a sister magazine for for Mad Magazine or Brother Magazine, whatever you want to call it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I read that all the time when I was a kid.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Mad magazine.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: That was one of my favorites.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was such a that's such a boy magazine.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know any female who ever read that magazine.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's jump into a little bit.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe let's talk about why freelance writing to begin with.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: What was it about freelance writing that drew you into it in the first place?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, Leo, do you want to go first this time?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's it's one of those things that one, I've I've always loved writing.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, when they teach you how to read and write as a kid, for me that was a watershed moment because it's like, oh my God, I can I can just make up all sorts of wonderful things and and and it'll be permanent because it'll be on paper.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the reason why copywriting is so fulfilling is when you realize, and it's taken a long time to really realize this, people have a need for written content.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And for most people, uh, they don't like writing.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's often surprising and jarring when I really, really realize it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how many people don't like writing or uh have difficulty expressing themselves with writing.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and that's really where that need comes from is finding somebody who both has a need and recognizes that they have a need for uh uh quality writing.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's so important.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Really important.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and um picking up on what Leo uh was just said is another thing people have a really hard time with is writing about themselves.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they don't they feel like they're being narcissistic if they try to toot their own horn, which is absolutely not true.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a certain way to write about it, but um I find that a lot of people say, like, oh, I don't want to come off as being, you know, narcissistic or like that I'm tuning my own horn.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, but it's okay to toot your own horn.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's this is your biography, you're showing off your skills, you're showcasing yourself.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway, to get back to your original question, Ken, is the I've got into writing um because I wanted something that was more creative, and I really liked the flexibility because one of the things I love to do is travel.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Both of my podcasts I produce are travel-based.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really love the flexibility that I could really pretty much make my own schedule and travel when I wanted to, because I usually, when there's not a pandemic going on, I'm traveling about three months out of the year between like conferences, festivals, promoting my book and doing other different things and and pleasure.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I really love to travel.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so writing, I thought, well, if I do writing, I can have a really flexible schedule.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can pretty much make my own schedule that I want.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's the downside, of course, is that you have to have buy medical insurance, which is super expensive.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but I love and I love being creative.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love sitting down and going, getting up and knowing that I'm gonna be being creative and also helping another small business owner promote their business with content, um, helping someone else write their book or uh and doing getting that bucket list item checked off for someone, or just helping someone who like isn't tech savvy, doesn't know how to write website content.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: I help them write their website content or help them with podcast production with show notes or doing like podcast production schedule and just helping them take that pain point off their plate and giving them that relief is like is really a good feeling for me.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I really love helping other people get to their whatever goal is that they're trying to reach in their business.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, can both of you talk a little bit about the mindset shift that you need to have to have a writing business, whether it's part-time, whether it's full-time, because Lynn, what what you mentioned was so important, and I I think it's a reason why a lot of us get into this is the freedom aspect that you can make basically make your own schedule.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: You pick the kind of clients you want to work with.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're basically kind of making making your own deal as opposed to working for somebody else who dictates your schedule.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: They dictate everything about what it is that you do.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So can you both share a little bit about the kind of mindset that you need to develop to begin freelance work?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so one of the things you definitely need to do when people say ask me, like, what do I do?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell them I'm a writer, a lot of people are like, oh, that's really cool.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they some people say, Well, I thought about being a writer.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the first question I always ask them is, Are you organized?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're not organized, there's no way you can ever become a successful writer.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And organization is a skill you can learn, but I would definitely not recommend writing for anybody who is completely disorganized because you have to be able to organize your files, find them very easily.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, editing, all that good stuff.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're not organized, you're not gonna have happy clients.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's definitely one thing is you have to be organized.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing is you have to be really, really good at time management.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even though I do have a flexible schedule, I have to block out periods of time to work.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have to block out periods of time for podcast production, I block out periods of time to work out, like my morning routine, all of that stuff.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I block everything out.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'm better at that than others on keeping my blocked out schedule.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times, one of the things I realized is that um when I'm when I was writing, I was letting clients, uh, I have a cloud calendar and I was letting clients come in any time of the day to do a consult.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that was breaking up a lot of my work blocks.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I realized that I have to only do client consults like at the end of the day, after I've had a big work block, I can get the rest of my work done and I can focus on the client consult.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that is one of the other big things that you definitely want to do when you have your own any of your own business, but especially if you're a writer.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Leah, what would I don't know what you have, what else do you think when it's about it's really similar.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it it people are kind of in love with the idea of being their own boss.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the important thing to remember is that doesn't mean you don't have a boss.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the boss is you.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you still have to follow orders and you have to be good at giving orders and you have to have the right orders to follow because now the employee and the employer are both the same person.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's you.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if if you don't flourish in uh a lack of structured environment or you're not good at creating a structured environment, then I would definitely rethink things because you know it doesn't mean there's an absence of order.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It merely means that you're in charge of creating that order.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things um I know a lot of people from COVID were talking about when they started working from home, they weren't used to it.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is actually my fourth business.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things I realized very early on is that you have to have a workspace because once you get there, your brain's like, okay, we're working.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can't work at the dining room table or the kitchen table because there's too much going on, and that's where your brain isn't working.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is you have to put yourself on a feeding schedule, or you'll just be down in the kitchen grazing all day.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was one thing I found out early on.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, I'm eating in the morning at lunch, I eat a three o'clock snack, and then I eat dinner at 6:30.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so once I did that, it's much easier because then I'm like, okay, now I'm taking my break.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going down to have a snack.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so um putting yourself on a schedule is really, really helpful when you have your own business.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and to echo a little bit of that, um, I actually just today uh wrote a medium article called uh something like Defense of Having a Ritual.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about the fact that, you know, you've got all these people now, they're working from home and they're having trouble distinguishing work and home life.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing that really helps with that is a ritual because what people are more accustomed to, you know, they have a ritual, they just didn't realize it before is the commute to work.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they do the same things.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: They wake up, they brush their teeth, they're shower, whatever, they have breakfast, they get in a car, they put it on their favorite radio station or podcast, knock on wood, and then they they commute to work and it creates this uh little liminal space where they go from home life to work life, and now they're serious.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think having a ritual, whether it's you know, some sort of uh like brewing some kind of coffee drink or caffeinated drink uh and listening to maybe the radio thing that you listen to on the way to work, maybe now you're listening to it in your living room, but some sort of way of making like a temporal instead of spatial space between work and home so that you get in that mindset of I'm not home.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know that my kitchen's right there, I know that the TV's right there, but I'm not watching Netflix, I'm at work.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is work.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a key thing if you have other people in your house also, especially if they're home when you are, because uh maybe I should admit this on a public podcast, but but there have been times, especially the last few months with COVID, where it's been the daytime, but other people in my family who shall remain nameless, they don't listen to this podcast anyway, so I'm I'm safe, will be like, Well, why can't you just do the dishes while you're home, or can't you just do this while you're home?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, No, I'm I'm working.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: You what you see is me at my desk.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: What I see is I'm at work, I'm not actually here.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it does help to have those clear boundaries in place.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: But but that is it is hard to do sometimes, you know, when when you work and live in this the exact same place.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's good to have that ritual together.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it can be good, especially if kids have school.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm not in my room.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know the Xbox is there, but I'm in school.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's get to that.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: That oh, I'm sorry, Lynn, I think I interrupted you.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was just I was disagreeing with you what you said about um, oh my gosh, what was it you just said?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Kenna left the candle.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it wasn't any good anyway.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So okay.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was good, but that's okay.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: We can move on.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we can move on.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now let's get down to brass tacks.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you both helping to set a great context for this discussion about getting your first freelance clients because the mindset, the habits, the uh the environment that we work in, all those are really important factors.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, can you both share a little bit about what was the very first paid writing work that you did for a client?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so what was it and how did that come about?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to go first, Leo?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you need to think about it for a second?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my my first paid work um was for a person who had a sign company.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and how I came about it is um there is a business networking group and they're found worldwide.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's called BI Business Networking International.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I know Leo used to be a part of one, and they're really great because you can get a lot of work referred your way, especially if you have people with what's called inside your power network, like complimentary people.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like graphic designer for me, or an advertising agency who free who uh freelances at work, that kind of thing.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we have a web designer in our group, and um and so anyway, to get back to my story, um, one of the members of the BI group needed some website content.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the first gig that I did.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I charged$30 an hour for writing website content for him.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Wrote, I think, three pages of content, something like that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I believe I made$120.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my big spectacular first gig of writing that I got paid for.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I uh I'm I'm torn between two different projects.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I wrote an article for uh a Garden and Gun magazine, but I don't know if that qualifies as copy.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um that totally qualifies as copy.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good deal.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you got paid for it, it's freelance.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other one was I did some um work for an apartment complex in town.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted a brochure, and at the time I, you know, I was just getting started.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't even sure of all the different kinds of copy, and so I thought, well, brochure, that's that counts, absolutely.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that was that was the first one I ever did that uh you know was was under the operating structure of Leo copywriting.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that was that was very fulfilling.
• 17:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll share my first one.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: I guess this is since this is a round table thing, I guess I should be telling these stories too.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my first one was a few years ago when a friend of mine who was doing podcast production at the time, he still is a little bit, he knew that I was a writer and he invited me to write podcast show notes for a client that he was starting to work with.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought, well, hey, if I can get paid to to write some stuff for a podcast, that sounds pretty cool.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'd been doing my own podcast for a while at that time, so I thought, well, I'm already doing the work anyway, so I may as well get paid for it for somebody else.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad that I did because I don't know how how the experience was for both of you, but the the experience of getting paid for the first time for writing was like a drug almost, because you realize somebody values my talent enough to actually pay me for this.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And even you know, it wasn't like it was a lot of money or anything, but but it was a lot to me because I thought, wow, this is so cool.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody's paying me for this, so there's real potential here.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if that was your experience or not.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to to talk over you there.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's all good.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's all good.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But but yeah, that validation, it's huge.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to a point, I I it's such a rush for me that uh if I could live off compliments, uh I wouldn't even need a chat.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, you gotta have money to live, so you also gotta charge in that too.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing that was really great for me is when I wrote my first editorial and I saw my name published in like a magazine that other people read, and I was like, I'm like, I'm really an editorial writer now.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is so amazing.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it almost makes you feel like a movie star.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Although, you know, maybe 20 people read the article, but who cares?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like your name is on that publication when it says by Lynn Smargis, and that tagline is there.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it just makes you feel like you've I don't know, it just it makes you feel like you've broken out into a whole new space and you've like, you know, kind of like Star Trek, you've gone where no one has gone before.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: But exactly.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, for those who are listening who are who are hearing these stories and they probably are familiar with other writers in their life who are getting paid for their work, they're looking at their set of skills and they're thinking, well, copywriting sounds interesting, blogging sound sounds interesting, ghostwriting books sounds great, writing web copy or social media, there's all these ways that you can make money writing.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: For someone who can do a range of things, and I know both of you can do a whole range of things.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: I can there's lots of things I can do as well.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: How does someone nail that down as to what they should be offering as a freelance writer?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you decide what you're gonna be offering to potential clients?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond you want to go first?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, go ahead.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, pigeonholing yourself can be really difficult.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for some people it's it's very easy.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they just want to do uh brochures for Advil and nothing else.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but by and large, it can be very difficult.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my big recommendation for that would be one, find something that you already have some interest in.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't have to be your life's passion or anything, but something that you're you are an authority on, at least among your friends.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then make a lot of content for that so you get really, really good.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that you know the expression with video games, get good.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: You get really good at that so that you have something to show off to people in that particular industry.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and from there, if you branch out to other things and it turns out you you prefer writing like white papers, for example, you know, so be it.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it gives you a platform to stand on where, you know, you can sort of establish yourself as uh, you know, that's your forte, that's what you're an expert at.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And at the very least, it provides some level of stability, both uh in terms of what you can produce and your reputation.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to continue off of what Leo said, if you're not sure what you want to do, I would say try a few samples of like white papers, website writing, things like that, and see what you like the best.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is because people are going to ask you for sample work.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so even if you didn't write it specifically for a client, you'll have that sample work so people can see how you write.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is too, is with any business, but especially if you're a writer, start with like three or four things that you offer.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like, I had somebody come up to me, they're like, Do you write resumes?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Well, I can write a resume.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I did it a few times.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's definitely not my favorite thing to do, and I don't promote.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It because I don't like doing it, but I'll like if somebody asks me I can do it and I'll do it and they pay me and it's pretty easy.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: But um it's not definitely not my favorite thing, so it's not something I really promote.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So just try new things and see like if you like it, because that's really the only way you find out that you don't like it is by trying it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like when you find your career.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things I thought I wanted to be was a state park ranger growing up, and I tried it for three months and absolutely hated it because I couldn't get anything done because it was too bureaucratic.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So just try it and see if you like it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, don't like kick yourself over it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody likes to do something different and just say, okay, I tried it, it didn't like it, move on and try something new, or maybe just stick to the other ones you did.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: But with any new business that you have, always start small with like three or four offerings because your clients are going to basically tell you what they want, and then you're gonna attract the people who are going to need the things that you are gonna be good at.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so it'll just naturally and organically develop over time.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I want to take a second and address the people who are listening who are indecisive, they're perfectionists, maybe they're very anal retentive, they have a hard time making decisions.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I don't know why I said that, and being anal retentive doesn't have anything to do with making decisions, but anyway, I threw that in there because maybe there's somebody who's all those things and they're really struggling with this idea of making a decision.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to people who say, I just I don't know what to pick?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm I'm afraid I'm gonna make the wrong decision and go down the wrong pathway.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is there such a thing as making a wrong decision when you're starting out?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, two things.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: One is that perfectionism is not a reality, and so if you're looking for perfect, you're never gonna find it and you're always gonna be chasing your tail and be unhappy.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I would definitely recommend to people is never ever think in terms of perfect, because perfect is not even in reality.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the second thing is is anytime you have fear that is gonna hold you back from doing something.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say just try it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: The worst that can happen is you might fail and you can try something different, but failure is a part of life.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I write things sometimes and I think they're awesome, and I send them to the client, and the client hates it, and I'm like, oh, this is so not okay.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do I have to do?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: I have to go back and ask the client, okay, like what would you like me to change?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Was it the style?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it this?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't mean that you're a failure if you failed.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that whatever task you did, it didn't fit the client's needs or it didn't fit what the client wanted because we're all different people and we all have different personalities.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and what is in the client's head and what they want expressed isn't always what you're thinking and you're picturing in your head.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you just have to remember that it's just different images and different personalities trying to express the same mission or vision or whatever it is that you're writing about or brand.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say just throw all that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's easy to say throw all that aside, but you really, if you want to be a successful writer, you have to be open and vulnerable to making mistakes and just accepting that you're gonna make mistakes because you're a human being and just learn from those and keep moving on.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's kind of like you know, if if you think about if you're a sculptor and you you're sculpting something and halfway through you mess up, that's that can be tough because you see the failure, you see what's messed up, and you can't really undo it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But with writing, the best thing about writing, especially in the digital age, is you're just using up your time and your creativity.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if you mess up, one, it's a lot easier to fix than something that's made out of marble or steel or something.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And two, worst case scenario, now you have a document on your computer that you're not that happy about.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's like the worst thing that could happen if you write.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the worst thing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So is that really so bad?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Having a a mediocre, maybe cringy document on your your computer.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And even from from clients that you do work for where you discover this was not a good fit, you discover I don't like this type of writing, that has a lot of value in itself because then you discover, oh, I don't like this type of writing after all.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then that will point you to what you should be doing.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: So really that it sounds like it's an important thing to reframe what failure is because there really is no such thing as failure.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you're moving, you're moving forward, you're making progress.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: You may not be going as fast as you want, you might have a few U-turns in there, but you're still moving, which is what that's that's what people who are not making any progress are not doing.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're standing still.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you're always moving forward and doing something that is helping you to get to where you want to be.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's my favorite thing.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, Lynn.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I say on that note of failure, there's a difference between failure and failing.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So failure is like, okay, I messed up, but I'm gonna, like you said, can't pick myself up and move forward.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But failing is like saying, Oh, I didn't do good, so I'm just gonna stop here.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: But and that's not okay.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you just pick yourself up, move forward.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's get down to brass tacks here.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how can someone, if they they want to write, they've identified what kind of writing they want to do for freelancing, or maybe two or three different things, but as they think about starting their business and they look around and go, I have no idea what to do next.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I can write, I want to write for hire, but I don't know what to do next.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: What would be a a next one or two steps that someone could take to start identifying and maybe even securing their first client?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, Leo, do you want to go first or would you uh sure?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I'm I'm trying to like have us alternate, but I can't remember who went first last time.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
• 27:36
  unknown: Okay.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think one of the best ways to get some writing experience and you know, sort of create a circle of of potential clients and just sort of spiral out from there, there's really two approaches.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one is writing for people that you're friends with who might have a need.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't mean, you know, your your roommate who who wants a flyer for his dog, even though that might be useful practice, but chances are you know somebody who knows somebody who needs something written for them and they're actively seeking that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then another thing that's very useful now is if you can put enough material on the internet, uh, if you're really good at blogging or making medium articles or something in in tar that showcases what you're good at writing, uh, then you can also create sort of more like a digital circle of people who could take an interest in that.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think both approaches are good is talk to people that you know personally in your your literal sphere of influence, and then also talk to people that are in your digital sphere of influence.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say the same thing is it always go with who you know first, like even personal friends.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Say, hey, I'm starting this writing business.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is I'm doing these offering these three writing services.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Here's like two samples of my work.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you know of anybody, please email or text introduce me.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I find that people say, like, oh, like say so-and-so says they're gonna connect me with this person, but they don't.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, just tell them, hey, would you mind just text introducing me today?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's super easy, super quick.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that way, as soon as if you can get the conversation started and they're really looking for content and you're a good fit, chances are they're gonna hire you.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, definitely networking groups.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I and I know some I feel more social.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to stay away from the more social ones, even though I'm female, because I love to socialize, but when that's like not my work, when I go to work networking groups, I want to make sure that they're really focused on getting you meeting other business owners because as a writer, you can really work with any business person pretty much, unless it's something that's really technical or out of your vertical.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, that's one of the reasons why I joined BI because I actually had joined that for a previous business that I had, and I got a lot of like a third, it's usually a quarter to a third of my business is directly from BI.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was one of the things I jumped into.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: It is a little bit pricey, but you do get a lot of really good quality referrals.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when I've advertised on other platforms and paid money for it, um I've got referrals, but they weren't as good quality.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um look, finding sources of good quality referrals are really good.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Also, if you know, like I said earlier, complimentary, um, people in fields like web design uh reach out to web designers locally in your town and say, hey, I'm doing content rating.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I offer.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a sample of my work.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can we get together for a call and send them like sending them a calendar or an online calendar link to book a time with you is like the best investment of money you can make because people will book a time with you on a calendar cloud link like super fast.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really easy because then you don't have to take the time to do that as well.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, and just say, like, hey, offer free 15-minute complimentary consult.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my link.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just talk.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so people are open to talking, and you can also find out if that's a good fit for you.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a uh thing I use a lot, um, which I can really get it get to know like a potential client if it's going to be a good fit, and if I really have the skill that they're looking for or do the content that they're looking for.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Something that has also worked for me at times, and it depends on the context as to whether this actually works.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if you're creative, you can slip in the fact that you are a freelance writer or a ghostwriter or whatever you do.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can slip that into conversation without it being weird.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because when you meet somebody, a lot of times you say, What do you do?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: blah, blah, blah.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a way to frame what you do in a way that doesn't make it sound boring or pretentious.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like uh, for example, if somebody asks me, so what do you do?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell them, Well, in my day job, I'm a college teacher, but in my side business, I'm a ghostwriter.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I specifically say ghostwriter instead of freelance writer because uh ghostwriting sounds uh more mysterious than if I say I'm just a freelance writer.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of times we I think the language that we use to describe our services does make a difference, like copywriter or social media marketer, or you know, some of those the titles really do bring in mystique and an importance to our work that saying, well, I'm just a freelancer, you know.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us in the writing field, we tend to kind of poo-poo on what we do a little bit because a lot of writers don't feel confidence in what they do.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if we if we make what we do sound as important as a NASA engineer or as interesting as what an engineer does, then I think that does come across to potential clients a little bit.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because of the gig economy, the word freelance is sort of it's becoming a bit of a dirty word, unfortunately.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and because some people will misunderstand and think you're a copyright lawyer instead of a copywriter.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've noticed some people are using the word wordsmith as sort of a replacement.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't bring myself to use it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It just sounds like too much like a Marvel character, the wordsmith.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it there there's definitely a huge importance on on what language you you make use of uh when you're when you're selling yourself and your skills as a service.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And to know marketing tech, like I know a lot of marketing terms because I used to own a marketing business and what people are looking for and keeping up on all of that, like current, is is really hard, but that's something you definitely need to do if you're a writer.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what was your original question, Kent?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just completely lost.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my original question had nothing to do with where I took the conversation.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you getting for the original question.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, I so yeah, just knowing that you're like a word engineer and being really confident in selling yourself is really important too.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Be like, like you said earlier.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know a lot of people suffer from what's called imposter syndrome, which is like you you say, Hey, this is what I do, but then you don't feel like you're really a quote unquote expert.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's always gonna be someone who knows more than you, and there's always gonna be someone who knows less than you.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just uh being confident in the work that you know you can do is what's really important, and not obviously like exaggerating and saying something you can't do and saying that you can do it, but just being confident in the work that you do and put out and and know that you're gonna be giving the client, like not don't I would don't, I would say never give work out for free, like especially after you started um promoting yourself and you start making money.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it there is a point where like if a client's not happy, going the extra mile is completely appropriate because you want the client to have a good experience.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're a high maintenance person, just fire the client.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've done that twice in the past two years.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: I fired clients.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and you'll know when you need to fire a client, like when you talk to them and you feel yourself cringe, like you know that's not a person you should be working with.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's no amount of money is worth doing that.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: That is such a great point.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and I ignored that advice for a long time.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was working with this client a couple years ago, doing their podcast show notes and some other stuff.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was on the phone with them one time, and they they always were a little bit insulting and condescending on the phone.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I always kind of just explained it away in my own heart, just thinking, well, I'm doing this for my family, we're making extra income, blah, blah, blah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just put up with it.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like super crazy, bad, insulting, but it was enough to where it bothered me a little bit.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I was on the phone with him one time, and my wife overheard this person talking, and she got really upset.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, Why are you working with this jerk?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're this is a crazy person, you know.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think an important clue for me was the fact that whenever I knew I was talking to this person, I would kind of tense up and I would get that feeling in my gut, like, I just I don't really want to talk to them.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, sometimes we got to listen to our body and what it's telling us.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a one client, the last client I had a fire was this year, and it was really hard to fire her too because it was post-uh COVID and uh probably about half of my income had gone away because I do a lot of travel writing.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I gotten this client, was a referral from a good friend.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did my complimentary consult.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: She seemed really great.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: She's a life coach.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, okay, here's the here's the content that I have.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like you to polish it up and write it for me.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I polished it up and wrote it for her.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, well, here's the first draft, because I tell every my clients you get two drafts.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we go over it like together, and then you tell me what you want.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I know your style.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So then I can write, like, you know, continuous content in that fashion.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing she says is, I hate it.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hate it all.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, what is it you don't like about it?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you not like the style?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do you not like the verbiage?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you not like the whatever?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, I just hate it.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just hate it for a half an hour.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is all she said was, I just hate it.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And she's a life coach.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, first of all, yeah, I was like, first of all, I would never hire you as my life coach.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Second of all, you are really rude.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So after that whole conversation, I thought about it for a week and I thought, you know, she is this is just not a person I'm gonna be able to work with because I am pretty laid-back person.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I make make a mistake, I will totally own up to it.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, okay, this is my mistake.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or even if it wasn't a mistake and a client wants something done differently, I'm like, okay, no worries.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to make my client happy.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: But this was a client that I felt like no matter what I did, it would not make her happy.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I sent her an email, I refunded her deposit, and I said, I don't think we're a good fit.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then she re she replies back and says, Oh, I challenge you to take on my job.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I replied back to her and I said, No, thank you.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be challenged to take on work.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm sure you'll find somebody who will be perfect for your content.
• 37:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Man.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was a person I definitely have not regretted firing.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, touching up on what you were talking about earlier, Kent, you know, you you mentioned that your your wife's reaction played a role in sort of realizing you know, that's something I struggle with.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I've somebody's rude to me, a lot of times I won't really notice it.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I won't uh I won't really account for it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll filter it out.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if somebody's rude to someone I know, then I pick up on it immediately.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's important when you're running a business, you know, realize one, it's your business.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is a separate entity.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, when someone is uh, you know, not a good fit for you, evaluate it, frame it from the standpoint of, are they talking to me?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are they talking to my business?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: What would uh how would I feel?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: What would I think if they were talking to somebody that I knew and cared about but wasn't me?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Would I still have the same uh, you know, taking it with stride response?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times by reframing that, I'm like, this person isn't a good fit for me, you know, be simply because I take myself out of the equation.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or another thing to consider too is like, would I say that to someone?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would never say to someone's work, like, I hate it, it's awful.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would not be my first response.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you wouldn't say it and then someone saying that to you, that's probably not a person that's a good fit to work with.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, we mentioned earlier a word processor, you know, it's not like cutting stuff with marble.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, manners are also free.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: They are they're one of the easiest tools and the freest tools you'll ever have at your disposal.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, rude people are not worth uh the time and energy most of the time.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm working with a client right now.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I just started the second draft of their book, and I was telling my wife the other day that it's been so amazing.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and I've worked with with a lot of people that I really have enjoyed.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no, no.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: But but uh no, but this one has he's even topped that because every time that I send him an invoice, um, he'll reply back, and this time he paid like within 30 minutes, which was awesome.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and this is a ghostwriting thing, so this this is not necessarily like a small pitally sum of money.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um he always says, Thank you.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: It is a privilege to work with you.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it just I kind of just want to collapse and go, Oh my gosh, I wish everybody in the world was like you, because it's it's and it's like, oh yeah, this is what it's like to work with an amazing client, you know.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: It makes a big difference.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a huge difference when you have amazing clients.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I will actually go out extra out of my way for those clients because I want to keep them.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're the people I want to keep, is the people who are paying on time, who appreciate your work, who, you know, every once in a while say thank you.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that just it's just it makes it and it's with any job really, but especially when you're writing, because this is your work you poured your heart and soul into creating, it's not just like you're stamping something out of a machine.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's really important to consider too, is that when you have those clients to definitely um like and ask them like, hey, do you know of any friends?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're probably gonna hang out with other people that are just like them and maybe like do a referral fee for them or something like that, too.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always a consideration is is that if you have a good client like that, find people who they're connected with, who they work with to work with as well.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've got a couple more questions I want to throw out here before we start to wind this down in a little bit.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: So my next question is how do you uh how do you help somebody who is an introvert, maybe they don't feel so totally confident with with sales, they don't have a sales background.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: How does somebody like that begin selling themselves?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, really, this is all sales, is really what it is.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: How does somebody get more comfortable with selling themselves as a freelancer?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually have a client right now I'm doing this with, and she's not tech savvy, she doesn't have any social media channels, she doesn't like selling herself, and she's in health and wellness.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the town I live in, Park City, there is a lot of competition for health and wellness.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I would I ask her a lot of questions.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, what do you want to do?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you want to be the top health and wellness person?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, she says yes because she's building her business.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, okay, well, in order to do that, we need to do this, this, and this.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then we need to put these keywords in your title.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I interview you, like I ask them questions like, why do you do this?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's your vision?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's your mission?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is your purpose?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your why?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you do your business?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so by learning their why and learning all those things, I can write about them.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, every time when I do that, my clients always say, Wow, you really made me look like a superstar.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Well, you are a superstar, and what you do is just why you're doing what you do.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so just explaining to them, like, in order to really promote your business in yourself, you need to really extend yourself and do this.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just I kind of like hold their hand and guide them through, and I'll do like one page a copy at a time, especially if I'm doing a website and say, okay, here's your first page.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you think?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and so to kind of like give them little baby steps through the process really helps.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't overload them with a bunch at once.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like give them tiny, tiny little pieces.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then once they get hold of that, then you can give them bigger pieces to like go through the content and and stuff like that.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, definitely giving them little pieces and letting them know this is why you're doing it, because when someone knows why you're doing something and you don't just do it, it puts a purpose behind it, and then people can really get behind it and get on the bandwagon.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's great advice.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think you hit the nail on the head with the word purpose, too.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, if if you're in a business, if you're promoting a business, uh, it's about value.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're trying to bring value to somebody and you're trying to showcase that your purpose is to uh have a good or service that is valued, that that has a monetary set value that you can make money off of and live off of.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's not, you know, just this is hypothetical, furniture stores.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's not one furniture store in this country called mostly okay couches for a room.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: So and it's the same thing.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you want to be a writer, don't be a mostly okay writer.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be a mostly okay graphic designer, be a great one and then let people know how great your content is.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Leo, I'm a lot this interview.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm totally having the visual of like this the mom and pop store that says mostly Okay furniture.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: It has three working legs.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: The fourth, maybe not so much.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: And don't you think that there's an aspect to this where sometimes you take on a new type of writing or you take on a client or you take on some work?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're not really sure how you're going to get it done, but you have confidence in yourself that you can figure it out.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you don't you don't grow by always doing the same kind of thing all the time that you're totally comfortable with.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to sometimes take a leap of faith and have, you know, this confidence is the idea of believing that your future self is going to be able to do this.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know how, maybe right now, but you trust that you're smart enough to figure it out.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's almost a little bit of arrogance that you have to have with this.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: That yeah, I can figure this out.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it's not arrogance, just confidence.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if anything, if if you're if you're comfortable writing something, like 100%, like, oh, I got this, this isn't a challenge, like it's probably not the best job.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: You you should want to be a little uncomfortable.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: You should want to uh to feel a little bit challenged, like, oh, how am I gonna get this done?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, that's how you're gonna make good content, anyways, being a little bit out of your comfort zone, a little bit challenged.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and also, too, um, when like I started writing like nine out of 10 times, I was like, people are like, Do you do this?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I have no idea how in the heck to do that, but I'm gonna figure it out.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: So just kind of like jumping in, like when it's almost like cliff jumping, right?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you've ever done cliff jumping and like you're looking over that edge and you're 50 feet in the air, and you know it's safe to jump in the water because you've seen other people doing it, but like everything in your head is like, you're gonna die if you do this, but you're like, no, I'm gonna do it anyway, and you just jump off that cliff.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's kind of like the cliff jumping thing.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you've done it four or five times, you're like, okay, now I know the process, now I know this, I know that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can do this with confidence.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just like it's like the 10,000 hour thing, right?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've done something enough, then you become a professional at it.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And professionals make things look easy.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like if somebody saw me write, they're probably like, oh, writing is so easy.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, writing isn't easy, but because I do it all day, like 10 hours a day, five days a week, it's easier for me because I know how to do it.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a skill like everything else that you learn.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And a great way to find out how far you've come, which I realized completely by accident, is just um if like I keep a journal, but I don't write in it consistently.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my work journal I do, but my personal journal, I just write in like whatever I feel like I need to.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll go back and see what I used to do.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my gosh, I am so far ahead of that.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's crazy.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a great way to just see like where you were and what your like what your goals are, what you've achieved.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um I every new year I put a new goal list up on my vision board to be like, okay, this is what I want to do this year.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I yeah, check off the stuff I do.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was checking off the stuff for this year until COVID hit.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: But anywho, yeah, so COVID kind of threw uh I'm gonna have to reformulate my 2020 for 2021 vision board list.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: And let's be honest, isn't there some element to this with writers?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, none of us have ever done this, uh, particularly me.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: But that being said, there is an element sometimes to this whole writing life where we perceive ourselves as kind of this tortured artist thing, like, oh, I'm just like bleeding because writing is so hard and it's so difficult.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we have like this mentality of like the work we're doing is like somebody going out on a battlefield.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, like giving childbirth, that seems to be pretty hard.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like digging ditches.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Leo and Leo and I have not had this personal experience, but uh, but Lynn, you have.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, digging ditches seems hard.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Being a police officer seems hard, being in the military that that seems like being a public school teacher, that's challenging work.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, writing is mentally taxing, but literally, like we're sitting on a keyboard and typing and talking with people.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like at the end of the day, there is an element where you kind of go, you know, this is actually, I'm I'm pretty privileged to be able to do this and get paid for it.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe maybe I should change my mindset about the difficulty of what I'm actually doing.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why I I actually remind myself of that exact thing, Kent, that when I think of like, man, I just I need more clients, I need to make more money.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think of, wow, I could be back in the middle school classroom having 15 minutes to scarf my lunch down before I talk to a kid or like email a horribly bad parent, you know, planning one of my three classes I need to plan for and being totally stressed out with the kid who I know is coming in next period, who is a total fill in the blank.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: Just a clean podcast.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I said fill in the blank.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, yeah, and and one of the things I will have to admit, I never get writer's block, which is like I hear people say, Oh, writer's block, like that's something I never had.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's only because like I have, I like I don't know where I got this gift from, but like I can come up with ideas in a heartbeat.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just a skill that I have, like I it's just a gift, and so I think because I have that gift, I don't get writer's block.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: The only time I can I have to stop writing is like nine o'clock at night.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, my creative brain's like, you're done.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny for me, it's the opposite.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's when my my brain switches on is after 9 p.m.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're a third shift writer, Leo.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am, and and yeah, uh it it, you know, there's so many more difficult things that that people could be doing.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it makes me think of that uh guide the cliche guidance counselor question, you know, what would you do if you had a million dollars?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can I can take it to another level.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: If the world ended and it was just me on a mountaintop and nobody around to read anything that I write, I would still write.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love writing.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: So to do that for a living, it's such a blessing to do something that I would do in the absence of anything for a living.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this has been a ton of fun.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've got one more question here to throw out.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you were going to give yourself one piece of advice when you were starting out as a freelancer, what would that piece of advice be?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'll give you both a minute to think here.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'll share what my piece of advice would be.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I would think I would tell myself to stop overthinking things is just to take more chances, go for it, stop doubting yourself.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Just do it because I would tell myself it's in the process of doing things and having the experiences that you learn.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: You don't learn things by sitting and stressing out and analyzing everything to death and then taking action.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: You don't actually learn anything until you take action.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would tell myself because that's a lesson I still struggle with at times.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's just a hundred percent what I was gonna say, just phrased slightly differently and slightly.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Leo, do you have a wife?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I meant what you said.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was just kidding.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't catch the joke.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bad joke.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just threw it in there.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if there's any lovely ladies out there, Leo is available.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um, for so to answer that question that you just said, Ken, um, I would totally have told myself to like, because you have so many things to do, right?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when you're starting a business, is to like not get so overwhelmed by the list of things that I have, but to like, and I'm really good at prioritizing, but to just really focus on, okay, what can I get done today that's on my list and not get so overwhelmed by all the things I A want to do or B need to do, because and and to know the difference between need to do and want to do is really important.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, like one of the things I'm starting up is to do like some uh specifically travel industry stuff to set that up so that when travel comes back, I have that to pitch to people in the travel industry.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, okay, what do I need to do today?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not like okay, I need to build the course today, but like, what do I need to do, like email list-wise?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: So just like reminding myself to start at point A and not at point Z.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Man, that is great advice.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this has been a blast.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have uh really had a good time doing this.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you both making time to do the show.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this will come out in a few weeks.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, of course, whenever people hear that, I don't know, Evan, I don't even know why I said that.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna edit that part out.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: That didn't make any sense.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I haven't had enough yet today.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: So well, thank you both for doing this.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a blast.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I appreciate all your great advice.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, could you tell listeners where they can find out more about you and your work?
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if you want to get in contact with me, you can get in contact with me at lyn l-y-n-n at writeforyu.me.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's w-r-i-t-e-f-o-r-y-o-u.me.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you can uh see me on the web at rightforyoupark city.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go on social media, you can look up the the handle at rightforyoupark city, or you can look up the hashtag right-foryoupark city, and you'll find all my social media, my website.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks for having me.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh yeah, you can find me at leocywriting.com, Leo at LeoCopywriting.com.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: So used to Gmail these days.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and lastly, I uh just look for Leo York on LinkedIn.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure I'm the only one.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be alarmed by the lack of a beard in this instance.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's probably my favorite platform to sort of interact with people with is uh LinkedIn.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you both so much.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a blast.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lynn and Leo.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: My main takeaway from this conversation is to keep moving forward in your journey of client work, no matter what kind of client work it is that you do.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you already have clients, what's the next step?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is it raising your rates?
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is it taking on a bigger project that might feel intimidating?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you don't yet have clients, but you'd like to do that, follow some of these tips here and put them into practice.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I guarantee that before you know it, you will have that first client.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the key is that you can't sit around and just overanalyze everything and think about it to death.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to take action.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: So right now I'm talking to those of you who are analytical people, maybe you're introverts who are a little intimidated by the networking or the relational aspect of doing client work or freelancing.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I just want to tell you the absolute key to this is taking what you know and putting it into practice.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: And don't be shy about telling people that you are building a freelance business or a ghostwriting business or whatever kind of business it is that you're going to be doing surrounding your writing.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that is my number one suggestion is just take action.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be shy, and you will learn as you go.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to give a massive thank you to my very special guests, Lynn Smargus and Leo York.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: You can connect with Lynn at writeforyou.me and also LinkedIn, and you can connect with Leo at Leocopywriting.com or on LinkedIn as well.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll have links for both of those in the show notes.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thank you so much for listening to this episode.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that your writing has the power to change lives.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll see you in the next episode.