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Leading with Compassion and Empathy (Part II) with Wade Thomas · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Our interview last week was so good that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
• 0:41
  If you missed last week, you'll find the link in the show notes.
• 0:45
  Everyone, it's, Roxanne Derhodge of Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:49
  Thanks for tuning in again today.
• 0:51
  Today, I have, Wade Thomas, and he's an executive coach.
• 0:55
  And he talks about, executive, dealing with executives at the heart level, which is
• 1:00
  something, as most of you know, that I talk about all the time.
• 1:05
  So I'm gonna say that most of us out there are trying to figure out the most effective ways to
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  lead, I would say prior to, 2 years ago, but even more so, in the kind of the pressures of
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  the, present economic times.
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  What if you have leaders that are they don't know the the difference between, or maybe they
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  have experienced it, but they kinda think, you know, when I was an executive for years away,
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  they, you know, I got the message, either implicit or explicit that you leave, Roxanne,
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  the mother, and wife, at the front corporate door, then you get on that corporate elevator.
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  Your performance as an executive.
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  When you get back, you then your executive Roxanne for 12 hours or 10 hours.
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  And then when you jump back on that elevator, then you became Roxanne, the mother, you know,
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  the sister, the wife, all that stuff.
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  Right?
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  So we have a lot of that thinking still there in the separateness, which I know in the last
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  little while, we we haven't had But do you still have leaders that don't know how to gauge
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  that?
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  Like, how is it that I know I'm connecting?
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  But I'm not being too intrusive.
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  So I'm just curious how you might deal with a scenario like that.
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  I wanna connect with you, Wade.
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  You're my employee, but I feel like, I'm I'm getting into business.
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  And but I wanna be empathetic, but I want to be empathetic in a professional way without
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  getting too personal.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, that's that's a big one.
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  Right?
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  And, again, it's something that we've always been taught and has never been real.
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  There's never been a Roxanne as the mother and a Roxanne as the executive.
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  You know?
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  You know, I I never personally made that distinction either.
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  It wasn't like I could turn off what happened, you know, in my personal life and go to work
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  and then turn that off.
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  And now, nowadays, you know, with the advent, the technology, you you can't do it.
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  You know, in fact, companies don't want their employees to do it.
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  Right.
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  I mean, how many emails do you get after 5 o'clock when you've gone out?
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  You know, how many text messages are items or whatever the communication method you're sure
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  is?
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  And so that's that's real.
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  There is no separate person.
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  There's a there's only a whole person.
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  We've always been taught as leaders that we don't get into people's personal lives.
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  And, you know, my question is, why not?
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  It is not a good answer for that.
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  So so how do you handle the, you know, the actual kind of one on one conversation and the
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  the nitty gritty of it is Yeah.
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  You gotta go over that fear.
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  You know, research shows that most people want, you know, their leaders at to have some
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  knowledge or be involved at some level in a personal lives.
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  That level varies, but, you know, most people want that.
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  So you can't be afraid of that.
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  And then you ask the questions, you know, and you can start very broad.
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  You know?
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  How's your day going at 8 in the morning or whatever?
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  You know?
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  So it can bring in a how, you know, how are things going at home?
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  And, you know, if you go too far, you're gonna find out because if you're really, you know, a
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  good leader and you're empathizing, you're listening, and you'll feel those pushbacks.
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  And, you know, it's not the leader's role.
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  To be the psychotherapist, but is leaders role to be supportive of the whole person, not just
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  the work person?
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  The leaders that really are affected and really have the high engagement from their people,
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  they're involved with the whole person.
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  For sure.
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  And, And I think, you know, I would say that most leaders have the abilities to communicate.
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  It's to have gotten to the level, especially where you're talking at the senior leadership
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  level, But now we're trying to have them connect on a deeper level to know enough about
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  what the key drivers to to, impact performance.
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  That's just not, based on numbers, but it's also based on what are the things that drive
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  numbers, which are people, and what motivates people to come to work, be completely present,
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  you know, be productive, not feel like they have to be separate, And then I think most of
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  us want to do I mean, you or I, I know with my job, but, you know, when I was executive, I
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  spent more time there, oftentimes, and and then being at home, And, of course, but I was
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  juggling all the pressures of being a new mom and traveling and, you know, customers and
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  everything that was going on.
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  So it's a you're constantly juggling a lot of things.
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  And, you know, I had a I I would say that I had one of the most authentic, leaders that lead it
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  led me And the one thing that he knew very well is he knew me very, very well, and that he
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  knew, you know, obviously, the stage that I was at and some of my pressures even though I was
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  under a lot of pressures with my portfolio that I was managing, but he was always able to say
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  he would joke around and he'd say, Derhodge, what do you need?
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  And I believe, you know, every time I kinda got close to his office in a joking way, you know,
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  because he he could sometimes it may may have been that I just wanted to touch base because I
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  traveling so much, or I had a real problem with a customer, but it was always the same.
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  So he figured out that we had that kind of synergy weight where he could joke with me.
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  I'd be like, oh, I really need something this time.
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  And then he'd say, well, you know, my door's o all is open, so there was a I I didn't there
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  could be something catastrophic that was going on with an account that I was dealing with to
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  something really, really small, but I felt like I could engage in any way.
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  So, obviously, he he figured out those things, and I'm talking, you know, 20, 25 years ago
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  now.
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  He and he, you know, he engaged me in such a way that I always wanted I loved my what I did,
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  but I always wanted to make sure that he knew how much I valued his direction as well.
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  Yeah.
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  It's it's telling me this now 25 years later is a testimony to how powerful that leadership is.
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  Right?
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  You've never forgotten.
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  And I, you know, and I worked with the chief operating officer, you know, for many years
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  who, you know, is very memorable.
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  He got to know everybody.
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  You know, it didn't matter what level you were.
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  He knew everybody, but here's here here was kind of his secret.
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  He let them know him first.
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  Oh.
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  He was vulnerable.
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  He was open.
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  He talked about what was going on in his life.
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  You know, and and here you have, you know, number 2 guy in the company, basically, you
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  know, talking to the lowest level data entry clerk, you know, about his life.
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  And, you know, and he walked around every morning.
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  He didn't go straight to his office.
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  I had other executives that, you know, went up the back staircase in the office.
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  He walked right through, stopped, and talked to everybody in a cubicle, you know, and, and and
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  I still I mean, he's I have a book out there and he he's, you know, I've used it.
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  Is he in your book?
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  And likewise with my, with my, you know, director as well.
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  He's in mind because I I cite him as being, you know, teaching me.
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  So and I was quite young as well as an executive how impressionable he was on me and
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  how it allowed me to lead that much more effectively with the different environments
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  that I've been in since.
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  Yeah.
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  And he's in the book.
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  He's in the book several times, and here here's the great thing.
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  I not long after I released a book, I had a former manager level employee of mine.
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  I worked in my organization and sent me a picture, a screenshot of the story from the
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  book, put a circle around it and said, This is who it is.
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  And she knew.
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  You know, I didn't use his name.
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  Right.
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  It's not amazing because, you know, I say likewise, and and, you know, I'm you know, I'm
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  sure you see it too.
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  Bad leaders get as much airplay as good leaders.
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  Right?
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  But they what they often do is, you know, they are kind of they can infect an environment so
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  quickly, and the impact can be so far and wide versus, like, really good leaders, you know,
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  they're remembered for years years years.
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  Like, I'm talking about my colleague, you know, his name is Richard Siegel, 25 years ago and
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  and your, you know, COO, which is like in the 7 second, especially, you know, somebody in
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  finance as well.
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  You're like, They shouldn't be a connector.
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  Right?
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  Should they?
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  But, obviously, this this particular man had the those qualities as well.
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  When you work with your leaders, you say you work with the top 20 tier of any organization.
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  And is there certain things that you work with each individual one to kind of figure out how
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  their tunes are doing?
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  Are there so sore core fundamental skills that you're teaching, or do you individually decide
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  what leader what each individual leader within that 20 needs, and do you create a, like, an
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  individualized plan per liter, or is it kind of a broad brush with?
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  No.
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  It's a very individualized, and, you know, I can't teach compassion empathy if I don't start
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  with getting the empathy with my client.
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  You know, and understand where did they're exactly going through?
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  So I don't have this off the shelf program.
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  What I have is a toolkit.
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  I don't know how many they're are, you know, I'm constantly adding to it as I come up with
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  different situations, but, you know, over a 100 different tools that, you know, I'm going to
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  apply to whatever situation is.
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  And, oh, by the way, I might tweak it because maybe, you know, I created a tool 4 years ago
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  before everybody's on Zoom.
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  And and so, you know, and and so I'm constantly changing with the environment, but it really
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  starts with learning who you're working with.
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  Of course.
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  So again, you you're starting with basic connection, which is what's, you know, all of
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  us have to do as coaches to get to know someone versus getting into work, right?
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  Because if if there's no connection, you're not getting, you know, the who, what, when, and why
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  kind of that keeps you alive and keeps you motivated, then you get to know that about the
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  leader, and then you drill down from there.
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  So tell us how, from your work, what kind of returns.
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  The name of my book is r o r return on relationships.
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  So tell us talk about the the money part of things.
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  Right?
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  We always talk about the RO.
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  I.
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  So when you really work with heart based leadership and you, you know, drill down, like
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  you said, you work to the top 20, what kind of returns are some of these companies
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  experiencing quarter by quarter when you're when you're is it quarter by quarter?
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  Does it take a couple of quarters for them to actualize it?
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  You know, how long before they actually start to experience some of the actual fiscal gains.
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  Yeah.
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  It varies.
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  And it depends on what level and really what discipline you're in.
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  Right?
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  So there's certain functional areas in any company that that drive value in a company.
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  Right?
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  Most company sales, right, and there might be some other, you know, functional areas to tie
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  on that.
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  But for instance, sales, And you can see a return within a quarter easily, you know, just
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  by a couple tweaks and it's pretty significant.
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  I generally won't take on my minimum is I wanna get 10 x ROI.
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  Okay.
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  And I'm not gonna take on a project that's not gonna get that, but oftentimes it goes it goes
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  a lot higher.
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  You know, if I'm working with, you know, a top executive, I mean, the return on, you know, a a
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  $10,000 or $20,000 investment is gonna be in a 1,000,000.
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  And, you know, especially for a big company.
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  And so really substantial returns and, you know, a lot of times people don't think about
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  that.
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  When it comes to the relationship stuff and the the employee driven stuff, it's it's not as
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  tangible as maybe buying a new machine.
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  Mhmm.
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  By the manufacturing world or buying a piece of land in real estate, you know, whatever it
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  might be, but it's real.
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  You know, if you can make a vice president of sales, you know, 10% more effective and they're
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  responsible for a $100,000,000 portfolio.
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  Yeah.
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  You just got yourself $10,000,000 there.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  Perhaps.
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  Investment.
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  You know, so it's, you know, it's really, you know, phenomenal, the impact of this kind of
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  things may have.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, the thing is, like, when I was in the employee assistance, world, which is
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  basically psychological wellness, when the more people are engaged, right, you know, and
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  managers or leaders are able to intervene in a way to understand that let's say someone's not
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  achieving and they're having learning to have the proper conversations because they know
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  their employees.
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  They're getting, you know, they're doing the things that you're talking about.
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  And let's say it's something that's a little bit bigger than then the leader can deal with,
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  then they get them the appropriate support elsewhere.
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  Most of those people that were identified early were able to take the steps by getting say, EAP
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  support at state of work, and they would they would fill out, feedback forms that would say
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  had they not gotten the help, that they needed?
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  So maybe it was an issue with a relationship, or maybe it's, you know, parent child conflict,
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  generally a lot not related to the workplace.
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  Most people would say they would miss more than 5 to 7 days on average sometimes, because they
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  got the right intervention, they were able to deal with what they needed in a confidential
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  way and then come back to performance.
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  So the things that you're talking about is very, very it's very important.
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  We all know that because then things like if people are happier, you're you're you're not
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  you're not seeing as much incidental absences.
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  You're not seeing as much short term disability.
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  I mean, long term, we know how you know, horribly expensive.
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  That is we're not seeing arbitration as much arbitrations or conflict in the workplace or
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  conflict due to management and union.
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  Depending on the environment.
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  So, you know, so but the core thing that I'm wondering when you when a new client comes to
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  your new company, are you able to kinda gauge do you do an organizational macro assessment of
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  kind of some of the core things around compassion and empathy before you start to deal
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  with them, or you're actually doing it by more of a verbal assessment with some of the key
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  players.
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  It's generally the latter.
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  You know, it's, it is, you know, getting to know who it is who it is I'm gonna be working
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  with and then trying to understand the business Usually, I'm talking to, you know, kind of
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  people the next step up.
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  Okay.
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  Or if it's a CEO, then I get, you know, I get a much broader feel for it.
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  Right?
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  But the reality is is until I really engage, you know, with the organization in a deep way,
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  I don't know.
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  Even if I'm asking a CEO questions, chances are he or she doesn't know.
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  You know, because they're oftentimes they're too far removed.
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  So it's really, that's usually part of The first page of my coaching process is discovery,
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  and and that's really where that fits.
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  You know, is is discovery.
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  If you're now kinda what is the state, surprisingly, there's not as much variability
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  as I might expect.
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  Yeah.
• 16:19
  Yeah.
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  We often think that in a different sector, in a different types of business, you know, those
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  types of things, but there are definite, trends that you would see after a while.
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  Yeah.
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  So outlier, I mean, the direction, but yeah.
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  Yeah.
• 16:31
  Of course, there's always that.
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  Right?
• 16:33
  So let's say you're a a senior leader up to a CEO listening to this now, and you're saying, I
• 16:43
  think I'm pretty empathetic or compassionate.
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  What kind of things and they're not sure.
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  They think, well, yeah, I'm I think I do okay.
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  I would do the litmus test.
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  I would probably be kinda maybe somewhere in the middle.
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  How would they how what would be some ways that they can start to reflect about their level of
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  compassion empathy to kind of decide if they need coaching, like, what yourself or I do,
• 17:09
  what What kind of things would you suggest?
• 17:11
  You know, so there's there's 2 different, so I I love compassion empathy together, but they're
• 17:16
  2 different things.
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  So start starting with empathy, you know, ask yourself, how much do I really know about
• 17:22
  what's going on in my employee's life?
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  And then I might take it to next step.
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  What about their employees?
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  And you start there.
• 17:33
  Yeah.
• 17:33
  I I remember one of my first experiences as an HR person.
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  I was in a manufacturing environment.
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  New plant manager came in, and, you know, essentially hit his office for a week.
• 17:43
  I'm still not quite sure what all that was about.
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  Basically, the only one I had access was me and the finance person.
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  And, but then after that was up, every leader in the organization had to come in and
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  introduce, bring their whole teams in introduce them to him.
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  But not this is Mary who works in this.
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  No.
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  He wanna know personal stuff.
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  How many kids?
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  What's their marital status?
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  You know, what are their hobbies?
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  Those kind of things.
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  Do you know how much empathy was gained really fast?
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  As he as these leaders, like, rushed around, but but, you know, asking yourself, could you
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  answer that question?
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  If you were in a situation, If you had work for it, his name was Ron Page.
• 18:25
  If you had worked for Ron, would you have been able to stand in there and do that
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  introduction?
• 18:29
  You know what?
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  Now I'm thinking about it.
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  I'm thinking about my team.
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  Like, Do I know, like, you know, what are, you know, and I I do, but I'm just thinking, but I
• 18:37
  have a small team.
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  But again, sometimes these companies can be so huge to your point.
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  Not just do I know the the leader, but do the people that lead under them?
• 18:47
  Yeah.
• 18:47
  You know, so that's that's two levels of tiers of understanding that you really have to
• 18:53
  really, really fumble down and do, you know, that due diligence or homework to really start
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  to ask those questions.
• 19:00
  That's a fan.
• 19:00
  I love that.
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  That,
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  And I would take it a step further a step further, or maybe step in a different direction
• 19:07
  too.
• 19:07
  So I'd also ask myself, You know, do I know what gets in their way at the workplace?
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  Because a lot of times you don't.
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  You know, a lot of times you think you do, but do you do you know that a coffee machine goes
• 19:19
  out every 6 hours?
• 19:20
  You know, or do you know that your chief accounting officer won't approve anything until
• 19:25
  he reads a seventy five page document?
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  Yep.
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  Do you know that before you make any capital investment, there's a 350 page document.
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  Everybody has to fill out, but only 30 pages are being read.
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  Do you know those things?
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  You know, I mean, that's another test to have is, you know, do you know personal stuff and
• 19:42
  the work stuff?
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  So that's empathy.
• 19:45
  So now with compassion, then let's, you know, now that we've parsed those out, how would you
• 19:51
  ask them to gain or garner their sense of compassion or level of compassion.
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  So go through your interactions for the day.
• 19:59
  Were there opportunities that you could have been more compassionate, or were there more
• 20:03
  were there opportunities where you really nailed it?
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  You're really compassionate because you gotta do both because you have to you have to have
• 20:09
  self compassion as well.
• 20:10
  You can't beat yourself up.
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  But do that on a daily basis.
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  What were these interactions?
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  And were there opportunities where I could have been better?
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  Right.
• 20:19
  That really leads to a level of introspection that, you know, is really gonna give yourself a
• 20:24
  a good picture of where you really are because we don't like to do that introspection.
• 20:28
  And I in my book, I talk a lot about awareness.
• 20:31
  Right?
• 20:31
  Like, you know, reflection and, because there's so much, like, you're right.
• 20:36
  You know, if if most of our behavior's unconscious and of course, leaders are very
• 20:41
  busy and they're running the business, and they have all the business units.
• 20:44
  But then, if you're not and you, you, you spoke to that really quickly.
• 20:49
  It is like, how are you caring, or how are you being compassionate of yourself?
• 20:54
  You, none of us are perfect.
• 20:56
  And, what are you learning from those interactions?
• 20:59
  So some of them, you're like, oh, I pin it out of the park.
• 21:02
  And the other ones, you're like, oh, I was rushed or I was stressed or I was short, you
• 21:07
  know, with Wade when I saw him there, but it was because I had three things going in my
• 21:11
  mind.
• 21:12
  So those are the learning, pieces that I know that I I worked through with leaders so that
• 21:18
  they can start to say, oh, I do this when I'm like this.
• 21:22
  I'm better when I might like this.
• 21:23
  So it's taking that time.
• 21:25
  And then just learning, like you said, from that reflective lens on a daily basis.
• 21:31
  Yeah.
• 21:32
  Yep.
• 21:32
  Absolutely.
• 21:33
  And and not to beat yourself up.
• 21:35
  Absolutely.
• 21:36
  Make sure you're focused on learnings.
• 21:38
  So, wait, this has been a an amazing conversation.
• 21:41
  I think you and I probably could talk for a lot longer.
• 21:45
  And, so I know you, have a program that, you're launching or have launched.
• 21:52
  I want you to, share with the listeners where they can, get ahold of you if they want to do a
• 21:58
  discovery.
• 21:59
  Or, to to know a little bit more about your program.
• 22:03
  Okay.
• 22:04
  So, you know, 1st of all, I'd already get a hold of me.
• 22:06
  You can go to my website, which is www.aimtoinnllc.com.
• 22:11
  And, or you can follow me on LinkedIn, which is Wade Thomas Business Impact Coach.
• 22:16
  Those are the best ways.
• 22:18
  But my programs, you know, I've always done kinda high end coaching programs where, you
• 22:24
  know, we we meet for the hour or so every couple weeks and we go for at least a year,
• 22:29
  usually, we keep it going.
• 22:30
  And and those are great.
• 22:32
  One of the things that, I realized is that not everybody could take advantage of them, whether
• 22:37
  it be from a cost standpoint or a time standpoint.
• 22:40
  So I've recently launched what I call laser focus coaching.
• 22:43
  And, basically, for a price point, it's under a $1000.
• 22:47
  You know, it's unlimited 15 minute coaching sessions with me for a year.
• 22:52
  And the idea here is in 15 minutes, what I can do is I can really kinda set you up and put you
• 22:58
  in a place where you're heading in the right direction.
• 23:00
  Then I give you homework, and you take and you do the rest on your own.
• 23:04
  And then, you know, you can schedule another.
• 23:05
  After you've done the rest on your own, you can schedule some more time with me.
• 23:09
  And so so this puts, you know, this puts a lot more learning burden on on you, but you still
• 23:15
  have access to me and all the experiences and things that I've gone through.
• 23:19
  So really excited about this because it allows more people to get involved.
• 23:23
  It allows companies.
• 23:23
  Companies may have an entire team.
• 23:26
  You know, if you wanna put 30 or 40 liters through something, you know, at a full rate,
• 23:31
  that's a lot of money.
• 23:33
  And and so this this kind of provides that ability to to really spread the knowledge down,
• 23:39
  you know, deeper into your organization.
• 23:41
  So I call it laser focus program.
• 23:43
  That is not on my website.
• 23:46
  I'm publicizing it more to through referrals and through, you know, podcast episodes like
• 23:51
  this 1 and make it available, to that group.
• 23:54
  And and so the way to do that is just reach out to me on LinkedIn.
• 23:57
  We can kinda talk to them.
• 23:59
  Awesome.
• 23:59
  It sounds quite, quite interesting.
• 24:01
  I'm sure you're gonna get a lot of business with that.
• 24:04
  So for everyone, thanks so much.
• 24:07
  Connection is key.
• 24:08
  Understand the people around you and, it impacts, you know, compassion and empathy
• 24:14
  impacts everything else.
• 24:16
  So for all our listeners, if you haven't signed up for the podcast, please go on and sign up so
• 24:23
  you can know about all these amazing guests that I have.
• 24:26
  So go to roxanderavodge.com and sign up for the podcast.
• 24:30
  And, again, Wade, thanks so much for your time.
• 24:33
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 24:39
  healthy change.
• 24:40
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 24:46
  rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 24:50
  We'll see you next time.
• 24:52
  On authentic living with Roxanne.