Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 177:7-13. Interest: Business Dealings, Investor and Managing Partner; Other Forbidden Forms of Interest, Like Services; Disputes

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Yoreh De’ah 177:7-13. Interest: Business Dealings, Investor and Managing Partner; Other Forbidden Forms of Interest, Like Services; Disputes · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:00
  OK, good morning. We are Helicos Ribis kuf
• 0:03
  einzine. OK, so yesterday we read Kuf
• 0:08
  einzine si EFF Zine inside. I'm just going to recap and
• 0:13
  explain it. OK, so the case was a person.
• 0:19
  A normal case of ISCA starts out a normal case of ISCA.
• 0:22
  A guy gives the money for a business venture and then midway
• 0:28
  or whatever, after a period of time, he just says, you know
• 0:31
  what, I'm think let's let's close this business venture and
• 0:36
  I'm just I'm just going to give you the money as a loan.
• 0:40
  That's the case. He stops and he turns it into a
• 0:42
  loan. So then it basically what it
• 0:47
  says like this, as long as the there he was profiting from,
• 0:53
  he's going to give him a profit from the time that they were
• 0:56
  making a profit or as we already learned the story of Iska and
• 1:00
  they're allowed to share the profits 5050 minus the Scartira.
• 1:04
  So as long as he's making, he's getting paid profits from the
• 1:09
  managing partner from this Iska arrangement.
• 1:13
  As long as it still is an Iska arrangement and not a regular
• 1:17
  alone, then that's 100% much. That's the case we've always had
• 1:20
  until now. There's there's no problem.
• 1:24
  When is there a problem? If the during the time when it
• 1:31
  was supposed to be in ISCA, the guy never did ISCA.
• 1:35
  He didn't use the money for the business.
• 1:38
  He used it for himself and there was no profits to be given.
• 1:42
  And now he wants to give him, he wants to give him money based on
• 1:48
  what they thought he would make. So then that's that's Ribisque
• 1:52
  because there was no isca or if he or in the second-half where
• 1:57
  he he's been paying him. So what is it?
• 2:02
  Let's say all along he's been paying him from the profits of
• 2:06
  5050. That's normal, no problem.
• 2:09
  And even if he paid him whatever amount and then at the end of
• 2:13
  the day, he it just has to be the correct amount regardless
• 2:18
  how he pays them and owes them for the Karen, the principal, as
• 2:21
  long as he gives them the right money at the end that it's the
• 2:24
  correct amount. As long as they were doing the
• 2:26
  ISCA, as long as he was using the money and he paid them
• 2:29
  accordingly, then it's fine. But if he ends up paying him
• 2:33
  extra more money than he actually made during that time
• 2:37
  period of ISCA, so then that extra part is also us, Sir.
• 2:42
  He has to return that part. We can't give him that extra
• 2:44
  part because he's that's on the, the loan time frame because they
• 2:52
  cut it. They switched from ISCA to loan.
• 2:54
  And that's when it becomes us, Sir.
• 2:56
  And whatever the case is, you just have to make sure whatever
• 2:59
  case you're doing that it's, it's a proper ISCA and it's not,
• 3:03
  you're not giving the person money from a loan or from the
• 3:06
  time of a loan. That's the principle.
• 3:09
  OK, let's read Khat inside. Yeah, I mean, everyone points
• 3:20
  out even though it started out, the whole arrangement started
• 3:23
  out mutter. It can change to esser.
• 3:26
  Yeah. OK, fine.
• 3:27
  Let's go on. Khat.
• 3:30
  Hellove mana la caveiro le Cole Hanaso.
• 3:33
  A normal case of a free loan. That's what Khat is talking
• 3:37
  about in this Simon. We're going back and forth a
• 3:40
  little bit with different scenarios, random cases, topics
• 3:44
  of Ribis not completely random, it's in the same Simon.
• 3:48
  But anyways, here we're back to our regular loan, free loan is
• 3:52
  no Ribis OK for whatever he wants to use it for just pay me
• 3:58
  back without Ribis Ella. But this is this is the catch in
• 4:03
  this case she hit the name Moishe is Saleh Kumal, Otto
• 4:09
  Hamana, Masamela ASA. If there is a built in benefit
• 4:16
  when you give the loan, it's not a free loan, actually a normal
• 4:19
  free loan and you get back nothing except for the care the
• 4:22
  principal that's mutter in this case, you told him you want a
• 4:26
  guaranteed benefit. There's going to be tax on all
• 4:30
  the money that he owns on a regular basis or whatever the
• 4:33
  case is. He's going to get taxed on this
• 4:35
  money that he's using or that the owner, the lender on, on his
• 4:43
  money is going to be taxed on it.
• 4:44
  He's going to have to pay a tax. You tell him, or you know,
• 4:48
  whatever your case might be, you tell him because of this loan,
• 4:51
  you're going to pay part of my tax.
• 4:53
  You're going to pay the tax for this money I'm giving you or
• 4:55
  whatever it's, it's his financial benefit.
• 4:58
  It's the lender's responsibility to pay this tax to the king that
• 5:02
  he has. And so he's basically getting
• 5:05
  pure Ribis. I think it's even Ribis suits it
• 5:09
  depending on how it's set up because you're telling him
• 5:13
  again, it depends if it's a for sure tax, a potential tax, we'll
• 5:17
  get to that later. But it certainly might be Ribis
• 5:20
  suits. It certainly is Ribis.
• 5:23
  If you make it on condition that he's going to pay your tax that
• 5:26
  you have to pay, right. So if you look at the tax, for
• 5:30
  example, he says in general and in the case the taz is reading
• 5:35
  from the base Yosef that this comes from, he says it's only
• 5:38
  Darabanam because this case is but Saad Ekhad, Saad Ekhad again
• 5:43
  we learnt is a maybe that's it's as an expression for maybe he
• 5:47
  might have to pay the tax, he might not have to pay the tax.
• 5:51
  It depends if the local tax collector shows up in the door,
• 5:55
  asks for it or never asks for it.
• 5:57
  So since it's a maybe, so in that case, it would only be
• 6:00
  Derabanan. But either way, he's taking upon
• 6:03
  the responsibility, the financial responsibility in lieu
• 6:06
  of the loan. And so it's at least going to be
• 6:09
  isser Derabanan. OK, let's go to Tet.
• 6:13
  You get the principles are all the same.
• 6:15
  Anytime you're gaining from a loan, it's going to be user.
• 6:18
  It just it's, it's have to always work out if it's
• 6:20
  Derabanan der Isa tet lova Shakiba Allah lazun ayatom.
• 6:27
  OK, so this is a little bit of a tricky case.
• 6:30
  Yeah. Chronium, I'm not quite sure
• 6:31
  what's what's going on, but let's let's read.
• 6:34
  So you have a borrower who also takes upon responsibility to to
• 6:45
  be to give sudaka to be mafarnace or to be responsible
• 6:48
  to feed an orphan. OK, so he's taking upon himself,
• 6:53
  whether it's from his money, from someone else's money he's
• 6:55
  responsible to pay. Let's assume maybe it's from his
• 6:57
  money and but at the same time, he's also taking a loan from
• 7:03
  this orphan Natas points out from the Bush it's referring to.
• 7:07
  And it depends how you understand the case, but perhaps
• 7:10
  he's talking about he's taking the loan from the apatropos.
• 7:15
  Either way, it's the atone's, the orphan's money.
• 7:18
  OK, Shabbat hayatomi tavola kovo.
• 7:22
  And then later on the yatome, whether soon it's older,
• 7:26
  whatever the case might be, and it's the principle that matters.
• 7:30
  The yatome comes and says, OK, you took a loan from me, let's
• 7:34
  say through the apitropos. Doesn't matter, pay me back,
• 7:37
  it's my money. So then this borrower, I don't
• 7:43
  know, let's let's assume he has the chutzpah to say whatever the
• 7:46
  case might be TA an linnakot machinatano MI mizonos.
• 7:50
  He says what do you mean I'm going to pay you back minus
• 7:54
  everything I've been paying to feed you the haya tongue toen
• 7:59
  chalo kibel mimenu davar and the the Yasam says the orphan says
• 8:04
  what do you mean? I didn't accept anything from
• 8:06
  you. I never got anything from you.
• 8:08
  So Haya Tom Neman. So we believe the yatom.
• 8:14
  OK, so the exactly what's going on, Everyone's trying to figure
• 8:21
  out the the shock. And the Taz points out an orphan
• 8:25
  has the same power or trustworthiness, the same
• 8:30
  strength in court as a regular person.
• 8:33
  So it's not necessarily you're believing in all cases you don't
• 8:39
  believe, but you tell them more than somebody else.
• 8:43
  That's the this thousand shaft. And if the atom is a ghado, so
• 8:48
  he's like everybody else, they say.
• 8:49
  And if he's like a khatan, so he's also like every khatan, we
• 8:52
  don't trust him in court. So anyways, what's going on?
• 8:56
  A little bit difficult. Let's just say that normally
• 9:01
  they believed equally and the case over here we can assume why
• 9:07
  is it? Why do we trust the atom?
• 9:10
  So there's a few possibilities. One is because the the way the
• 9:17
  the Lovis defending himself, he's basically putting himself
• 9:22
  in a position where he's doing Ribis.
• 9:26
  Perhaps that's one way, one way to understand it's a case of
• 9:30
  he's making himself, he's saying I did ribis with it.
• 9:32
  That's one way to learn, another way, and more from the toss.
• 9:43
  Yeah, but he got the money up front.
• 9:46
  So he, again, I'm not going to disagree with you.
• 9:55
  It's a question how to understand the case, but that's
• 10:00
  that's one possible shot. Another one is everyone knows he
• 10:03
  took a loan and he has to pay and he has no proof that he paid
• 10:09
  and we don't. So we have no reason to believe
• 10:11
  him more than the Yatom. There's a Khazaka that we all
• 10:14
  accept that he borrowed money. So now you want to undo the
• 10:18
  Khazaka, The Yatom has the upper hand and so on.
• 10:28
  On the one hand, we could, we could.
• 10:29
  We're towing for the Yatom that he never even got any money
• 10:34
  second hand. Like we believe that the Atom
• 10:36
  secondly, even if he got money, he can say, well, he accepted
• 10:40
  upon himself to give the Atom money as Sedaka.
• 10:44
  So therefore, even if he paid him, you, you, we all understood
• 10:49
  that he was giving him money as Sedaka and not as a repayment
• 10:54
  for the loan. So now after the fact, you can't
• 10:57
  come and change the you can't come and change the the deal.
• 11:02
  OK, anyways, let's go on. He's already agreed to give it
• 11:13
  to him in addition to the loan paybacks.
• 11:16
  So you the assumption is I think that's the most simple shot.
• 11:19
  And therefore the assumption is there's no how can you now
• 11:23
  afterwards say no, He's taking back his word.
• 11:27
  That's the most simple shot, correct.
• 11:30
  The toss brings a couple, a Shah brings one.
• 11:32
  OK, let's go on to Yadala. If you got it, good, good.
• 11:37
  Amar le haleh Matayan, Zeus miakshaf kadeshiyipo takhtav
• 11:43
  umanut hamela shuk mishlo schmelt.
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  That's us. So what's the case?
• 11:50
  It's another, it's another case of simple ribbus.
• 11:53
  You borrow money from somebody 200 zoos for example, and you
• 11:57
  say pay me back later. And so normally then Ribis that
• 12:03
  we're used to is pay 200 and then a year later give me 300.
• 12:09
  So that's basically the same case over here.
• 12:11
  That's a normal clean case of Ribis kutsa here.
• 12:15
  In this case, he's telling me I owe service to the king or
• 12:20
  whatever. I owe service to any businessman
• 12:22
  or any whatever the contract might be.
• 12:25
  I own a service. You tell the guy I'm lending,
• 12:29
  I'm, you know, whatever I'm lending to you 200 zoo's cash,
• 12:35
  but pay me back and value of $300 in service.
• 12:42
  So that's the thing. There's a, you know, you have an
• 12:44
  obligation to the king to do something of a service worth
• 12:48
  300. So he's benefiting an entire 100
• 12:53
  in service. Whether he hires someone to do
• 12:56
  the service, he does the extra hours himself.
• 12:58
  That's 100% Rivas Allah IMA marle parshini mean umnas
• 13:07
  mutter. If you tell him save me from
• 13:12
  this work I might have to do this job I might have to do for
• 13:15
  the king. That's mutter get me an
• 13:18
  exemption. So the first case is aser
• 13:20
  because there is a there you're putting a dollar amount or a
• 13:25
  there. There is already an obligation
• 13:28
  or you're you're specifying a predetermined.
• 13:33
  You're basically forcing forcing.
• 13:37
  You're basically making a contract.
• 13:39
  It's 200 for 300. Depends how you learn if there's
• 13:43
  an actual obligation there or not from the king.
• 13:46
  It doesn't matter. You specified you know you're
• 13:48
  going to get 300 in return, so that's a problem or it's likely
• 13:53
  to happen. OK.
• 13:55
  When is it much or 100% is when there's no obligation to do this
• 13:59
  service for the king. He might pick on you, he might
• 14:02
  not pick on you. You might be able to get
• 14:04
  exempted from it. And then there's no service
• 14:07
  whatsoever. It's free.
• 14:08
  So if it's just to get out of a service when there's when
• 14:13
  there's no obligation whatsoever at this point and he's not
• 14:16
  paying the obligation for you. So then that's what's as a
• 14:25
  maybe. Yeah, that's one simple way to
• 14:28
  learn. Correct.
• 14:30
  Yudhala. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:33
  OK. The Taj says that.
• 14:35
  OK, go ahead. Yudhala.
• 14:37
  Omar La Calvera Mana Li biadka Meribit Sutza shiga Vitnimeni.
• 14:44
  So. So what happens?
• 14:45
  One guy tells his friend, listen, you have a mana in your
• 14:51
  possession. Hey, Everyone agrees.
• 14:53
  And he says, well, not exactly. I'll take it back.
• 14:56
  Someone's I'll take it back. He says you have this mana in
• 15:00
  your hand and that mana is from ribit khsuza that you took from
• 15:06
  me so you took 100 from me or whatever the case is.
• 15:11
  And he says when that that money that you took from me that was
• 15:15
  from ribis khsuza which is asar da raisa for you to take and you
• 15:19
  have to give it back to me. The hello.
• 15:21
  And the other guy tells him, lo haiu divari maolam, are you
• 15:28
  crazy that that never happened? I never took ribiskusa from you.
• 15:34
  Mashvi in ET anitpa hesit. So in Bayesdon they would make
• 15:38
  you take a shvua of hesit. What's Shvua's hesit?
• 15:44
  So it's a shvua durabanan. Why is it called shvuat hesit?
• 15:48
  Hirosh shahisito Otto Hamim Li shava it's it's a the expression
• 15:56
  shahisito. So they convinced him to make a
• 16:00
  Shiva Lahasito lahodot in order to convince him to pay the
• 16:06
  amount to admit to it. Kimi doraisa a mushbeen aleshvas
• 16:12
  the Shiva said the yani when the basin makes you make a Shiva MI
• 16:15
  doraisa there's only three kinds of shuas, the yani shvuas
• 16:21
  hashimrim VLP ET echad ubaldas miktas ataina.
• 16:26
  When it comes to shvuas of Shomrim, when it comes to
• 16:29
  there's one aide who says you're hayev or a person is modib and
• 16:33
  miktas OK? You're right on half the money,
• 16:35
  but not the other half or part of it, not the rest of it.
• 16:39
  VH hulkin and some some argue that you don't have to make a
• 16:43
  shvua, but the shock says none of the Allah is like the first
• 16:46
  opinion. You do have to make a Shiva.
• 16:49
  OK, let's go a bit more Kabul. I I think that's it for this
• 16:57
  one. Fine, Let's just do a bit more.
• 17:05
  Good bet. I'm a Kabul mouth.
• 17:07
  I'm just trying to think if I wanted to say something.
• 17:10
  I don't think so. I think we covered it right.
• 17:13
  So what has it is when you're called for Bako and that's what
• 17:16
  you're doing in this case, fine you you'd bet Amakabel Maotla,
• 17:25
  Ketzi Reba, a person, a regular iska.
• 17:29
  We're back to a regular iska and you have a note and investor
• 17:33
  gives whatever they give and for a Ketzi Reba that they're going
• 17:39
  to split the profit with the managing partner 5050, right?
• 17:43
  Palga Milva. Palga Picadon.
• 17:45
  OK. Vetoing Shemalva Beribiti.
• 17:50
  Milva Beribiti. Right.
• 17:51
  Shemalva Beribiti. Thank you.
• 17:53
  And the borrower says no, this was just a normal case of of a
• 17:59
  loan and he's trying to get out of paying any profits and he's
• 18:03
  calling it a loan. Eno Neman.
• 18:05
  We do not believe him because we assume no one's going to make
• 18:09
  himself a Russia and therefore he's higher.
• 18:12
  I mean, if if there's no proof for this iska, the guy can tell
• 18:17
  him I never got your money. I paid it back.
• 18:20
  There are ways to get himself out of pain.
• 18:23
  But we there's no migo over here because that's not what he was
• 18:27
  telling. He was telling malva beribit and
• 18:30
  we say en Adam mesim ansimo Russia.
• 18:33
  And he wouldn't do that. So that he did an iska to begin
• 18:37
  with and now we don't trust him. And that's the OK.
• 18:41
  You're Gilmo, Let's do a good mauve maut laba al habait.
• 18:48
  OK, so here's an interesting case.
• 18:50
  This is actually this case we pretty much already had in Kuf
• 18:53
  Samakhvaav. As at the end it says this is a
• 18:59
  case of when this is probably not.
• 19:04
  This is counter intuitive. Who usually lends money to who?
• 19:08
  Is it the rebbi to the balabas or the balabas to the rebbi?
• 19:12
  So this is a case where the rebbi has more money in his
• 19:14
  pocket than the than the the father and hater and the rebbi's
• 19:18
  lending out money to the father. Abala bait, that's the father
• 19:23
  Vigam khoser alakha in Vinosha Bala bait.
• 19:27
  And now he's tutoring the father's son.
• 19:30
  He's reviewing alakhas with him. U Bala Bait and no Tenlo Hotsah.
• 19:35
  And the father is giving him a salary.
• 19:38
  Sorry, the Rebbe is giving, you know, the father pays the salary
• 19:42
  to the Rebbe. So Usser, this is Usser.
• 19:46
  Why is it Usser? Because it looks like Rebus.
• 19:50
  Now what's the case? It's this is very important the
• 19:55
  case. It's not clear when you read it.
• 19:57
  Inside the case is only when it's done.
• 19:59
  At the same time, you can't give a loan to somebody.
• 20:03
  On the condition this is happens at the same time you make the
• 20:06
  agreement when you give the loan, when you give a loan, you
• 20:09
  say this is on the condition that you're going to hire me now
• 20:14
  as a for a job. Anytime you can't give a loan on
• 20:18
  the condition that you get hired, that's called ribis or
• 20:22
  again it's stir abandoned. You would have paid the guy
• 20:25
  anyway. He's doing the job, you're going
• 20:26
  to pay him. You're not paying him a penny
• 20:28
  extra for the loan. You're paying him because he's
• 20:31
  teaching the Rebbe's tutoring the son.
• 20:33
  You hire someone to do a job for you.
• 20:36
  That's that's not Rebus Midorisa.
• 20:39
  But he wouldn't have got the loan if you didn't accept to
• 20:43
  hire him. So if it was done on condition
• 20:46
  or at the same time, once it's at the same time, it looks like
• 20:50
  it's on condition, it looks like it's it's Rebus, even though you
• 20:54
  would have paid him. So that's when it's us, Ella.
• 20:58
  When is it mutter? Ella Inca ninte in loja Karen,
• 21:01
  the Matana Gomorrah. What you could do is you can
• 21:04
  tell him I'm giving the when you give him the money, you tell him
• 21:13
  it's a gift. And then if you want to pay him
• 21:16
  back, he's going to pay him back.
• 21:17
  So you know he's going to pay you back.
• 21:19
  It's a little bit of a harama, but you verbally say you don't
• 21:22
  have to pay me back. And therefore it's it's mutter.
• 21:26
  And why this is the problem? And this is the same Halafa.
• 21:31
  Yeah, Ribis is a problem. This is the same Halafa.
• 21:36
  Well, you are you wouldn't have got the job if you didn't give
• 21:40
  the loan. So you're you're Bennett.
• 21:42
  You're right. You're right.
• 21:43
  Is there a bun on? I don't know.
• 21:57
  OK, good question. I don't know.
• 21:58
  So then he was not always much of well, OK, not everyone.
• 22:05
  OK, It's a good point if that's called a mitzvah, If it's called
• 22:10
  a mitzvah also, it's not for, it's not you're not using the
• 22:15
  money for the mitzvah. You're using the money for
• 22:18
  working. It's a regular job.
• 22:20
  I don't know if I'd call it a mitzvah.
• 22:21
  In fact, now that you've pointed out, probably not, but anyways,
• 22:25
  he's, he's not using the money for him.
• 22:26
  It's fine. Anyway, just to conclude, so the
• 22:29
  so the halakhah is you're allowed to, that's the GRA.
• 22:33
  I mean the Shah, it says, points out that this is the same
• 22:37
  halakhah we had where the Rama Bafairush says it's Mutter and
• 22:41
  Arnisa. Then Asiva Shalom points out
• 22:43
  it's Bafairush Mutter in the Rama.
• 22:45
  Just the GRA doesn't exactly agree with this Kula of Matana
• 22:49
  Gomora. It seems like he argues from the
• 22:52
  Rashba and he says that's the opinion of the Rama.
• 22:55
  Not exactly clear, but anyways, fine, we'll stop here.
• 22:59
  Next topic is penalties. Can you pay penalties?