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Transcript

Where’s The Nervous System Stuck with Ruby Jo Walker, LCSW · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, and one. All right, folks,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have as
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: my guest today, Ruby Jo Walker. Ruby Jo, welcome.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Awesome.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Ruby Jo is an author. trainer trauma therapist and course
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: partner for the polyvagal institute specializing in the neurobiology of
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: trauma and resilience with more than 35 excuse me with
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: more than 35 years of experience in trauma treatment she's
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: certified in somatic experiencing and hakomi mindful somatic psychotherapy ruby
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: joe is the founder of sw trauma training services and
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the developer of post-traumatic growth somatic therapy ruby i'm going
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: to stop for a second for a second and just
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: get some water here. We can cut all that out.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Just redo it. All right, here we go. Okay. So five, four, three, two, one.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Ruby Jo is an author, trainer, trauma therapist, and course
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: partner for the Polyvagal Institute, specializing in the neurobiology of
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: trauma and resilience. With more than 35 years of experience
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in trauma treatment, She's certified in somatic experiencing and a
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Comey mindful somatic psychotherapy. Ruby Jo is a founder of
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: SW Trauma Training Services and developer of Post Traumatic Growth
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Somatic Therapy, which integrates somatic therapy, neurobiology, resilience, trauma healing,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: attachment theory, and polyvagal theory. All right, Ruby Jo, just
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: a little bit about you. Before we get going, share
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: with our listeners where you're from originally and where you
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: are currently.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am from a little town near Beach Grove, Indiana,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: and I'm now living in Durango, Colorado. Okay. Yeah.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: So how does all this start for you?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: It really started with my own life. And so when
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: I was in high school, my freshman year in high school,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: my mom died. and she was a single mom, and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: so there were five kids still at home, and things
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: were not great with death and dying back then. And
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: so I had a very complicated life after that, but
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: her dying process was really challenging. Back then, you couldn't
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: go to the hospital and visit your parents or anybody.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: You would be hospitalized for months at a time. So
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: in her last months of life, I could only see
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: her if I could get a ride to the hospital.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And my little siblings never got to see her, except
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: once in the last nine months of her life. So
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: the thinking was very different in the 1970s. So I
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: got interested right away and really started getting what a
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: gap there was in understanding death. And so when the
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: really cool thing that happened is, by the time I
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: was a sophomore, I met a social worker. And she
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: came to my school every other week, and I got
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: to visit with her. And it made such a big difference.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Because one of the things that was going on culturally
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: back then is people just didn't ask, like, how are
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: you doing? It was just almost like they avoided it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And so I felt like, how is my life so complicated?
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I no longer have a mom. And my dad and
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: stepmother moved out to live with us, but they'd been
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: very abusive. So I did not have a good situation there.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: And so I just felt like I didn't know how
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: to do my life. So my mom, in her dying process,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Ross' first book on death and dying had just
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: come out maybe two years before, and she kept telling
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: me to read it before she died, and I just
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: couldn't read it. I'm sure couldn't face it, actually. And
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: so I finally did read it, and it was so
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: good because it was like, okay, first of all, this
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: is normal, and I should be feeling this, and I
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: actually think people should be talking to me.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I started then just getting, like by the time I
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: was 16 years old, I decided I'm going to be
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: a social worker and I will help with death and dying.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to help families. So it became very personal.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that happened without me knowing it,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: it was actually my first step into post-traumatic growth. Because
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I kept saying to myself as I was going through this,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: this has to mean something. This has to mean something.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Like how can something like this so horrible happen? So
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: that became kind of a thing for me. Like, I
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: just started noticing, like, I realized how important anniversaries were,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Mother's Day, my birthday. So what I started doing is,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: even in my own little world, I would just, like,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: send a card to somebody about Mother's Day if they
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: lost a parent or Father's Day, you know, whatever it
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: would be. I started just getting the importance of meaning.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: And so for me, I started.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Hang on, hang on a second. Sorry to interrupt. What
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: do you mean by... This has to mean something. And
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: now I get the importance of it has to mean something.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for me, I felt like how can
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: you go through something so horrible and not, actually the
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: words were, this has to count for something. And so
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: it has to count for something. I think I felt
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: like I had to do something with it. Like I
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: had to make it mean something that I went through this.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: It became a way to get through it. Like if
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I could just have it mean something. So when I
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: thought maybe I could help people later and I'd have
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: something to offer, and if I could even make people's
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: lives better in my current life as it was as
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a teenager, I felt like I could get through it.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: And so it gave me a way, a path forward.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't have a path forward if I didn't have that.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I felt I still had a tremendous amount of grief.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I wanted a mom.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I wanted a parent. I still had a very tough
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: situation at home in the current home I was in.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: But the thing that kept me going was just feeling
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: like I can make it better for somebody else. And
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: so that, anyway, yeah.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I want to stop there for one second.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And we're going to edit this out. But I'm hearing
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: your microphone rubbing against something.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, I wonder if it's my earring maybe?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: No, it's more of a. Tap your mic. No, your mic.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: You're tapping the cord. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So your microphone
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: is not connected.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, I did this this morning.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. So you're on an iMac?
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, so there are two places. First place is your
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: settings on your computer.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, on the computer.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did that this morning. Go to your settings.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Go to input. First, go to sound.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I'm there.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, go to input and select your headset microphone. Okay.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Does this make a difference?
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Hang on. And then go to output. Okay. And you're
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: also using your headset, correct? Yes. Correct. Okay. Now, double
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: check to make sure that's stuck. Okay. So microphone should
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: be your headset, whatever that is. Yep. Okay. Now you
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: want to check on the dashboard of Riverside. Okay. So
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: on the right side, you should see your name. So, yes,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: it looks like your microphone says iMac Microphone.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, where are you seeing this? I see people, but
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I don't see my name. Okay, now I do.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: And if I hit that, and this just says pin.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. Oh, there we go. So now it looks like
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: you're good.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: So is this good now? Can you hear me now?
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: I can hear you, but I'm hearing... I'm just wondering
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: if it's your breathing against the microphone.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: My breathing?
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe stop breathing.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Stop breathing.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I was joking. I was joking.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: You know, I have a fan on.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: That's probably it. That's probably it.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Let me see.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: That's it. Let me turn it on. That was it.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Was that it?
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: That was it.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it. Okay. No worries.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Sorry about that.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: No, no worries at all. We'll just edit this out. Okay.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: All right. So five, four, three, two, and one. Okay.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So it has to count for something. Yes. Say more.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Well, it just became a way to get through. It
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: became a guiding post for me. I almost felt like
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: something really changed. I felt so powerless before this. Like,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: How do I do this life? And if it could
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: really count for something, I felt there was a path forward.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: So I literally put everything into, like, I was going
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: to go to college. I was going to, you know,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about how I could help people. so
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: that just became it became kind of everything to me
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: because it was just the one thing I suppose I
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: could also control so much was out of control but
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: if I felt like I could make a difference it
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: literally softened the pain it was still horrible but it
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: made it more tolerable.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Um, I want to ask you how things unfolded, but
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I just want to say as an aside here, I really, um, appreciated, uh,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: She wrote a book called, I think it was the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: wheel of, was it the wheel of life and death? Um,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I get that name here.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know this book.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: The Wheel of Life. Yeah, it was called The Wheel
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: of Life. I read that, and I called her up.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I found her phone number.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. I love this.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I was so inspired by her.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I called her up. I found her number. I called
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: her up. And, hello? I said, is this Elizabeth Kubler-Ross? Yes. Yes. Well,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I just want to tell you, I said, my name
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: is Guy McPherson. I just read your book, The Wheel
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: of Life, and I just loved it. Thank you. Okay, bye.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. That is so funny.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Anyway.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: That's a serious inspiration. Yeah. But I really appreciate, I
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: recognize her work and that inspiration for you. So how
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: does this unfold for you, Ruby Jo? What do you do?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Well, now I mostly do training, but I still have
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: a practice.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Well, no, no, no, no, no. How did you get
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: into this? What are you thinking in terms of schooling? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: So really, so my first, well, I went to school,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: got a master's degree in social work. Didn't take a
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: lot of time. Went and got a master's degree in
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: social work. And then my first job clinically, I had
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: a couple other things. I did work in a hospice first.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: So I worked in hospital social work and did hospice work.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: And I did that for a few years. And then
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I went into straight therapy. I kind of got the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: completion of wanting to work in hospice had been a
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: real gulf of mine. And I loved it. And then
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: I started working with adolescents in substance abuse recovery. So
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: what started happening right away is I could just see
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: there was so much trauma. So literally I was taught
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: in school, you know, in graduate school in the early
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: 80s to mid 80s, I was taught that people talk
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: about it and they're going to get better. So once
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I started working with, I started going, wow, like that's
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: not happening. People are talking about it and they're not
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: getting better.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Not happening with me.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: And some of them don't even want to talk about it. Right.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: And so it was being like, wow, like what's going
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: to help? So I started just learning everything I could.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Like the first thing I did was like hypnosis. And
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I worked with that. You know, it was more like
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: containing and resource work. And then the next thing was EMDR,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: which it was very early on. Like I learned from
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Francine Shapiro in 96. And it was, you know, it
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: was not even a thing. Like it was considered woo-woo
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and weird. But I could see it made a difference.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: And then one of my supervisors told me, you need
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: to learn somatics. He said the issues are in the tissues.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: So the first thing I did was Hakomi Mindfulness Training,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: which is a two-year training. And it's all about developmental wounding.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: And that blew my mind because I could see how
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: much further you could get. Because I really was disconnected
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: probably from my own body. So I almost felt like
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I'd never done therapy before, even though I'd done a
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: lot of therapy when it really moved to the body.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So I was sold on body psychotherapy.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Hang on. Let me pause you. Yeah. Be more specific
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: about what struck you with Hakomi, for example.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Just how, so first of all, it's an absolutely beautiful method.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And it really, I would say it's where I learned
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: my therapist seat because you really work with yourself and
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: everything is about cultivating deep presence. And so always being
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: in loving kindness, you know, tracking your own body to
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: see where you were at. And then there was, you know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: working with the child and really learning to understand developmental
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: wounding and how that created beliefs. That was very, very powerful.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And I simply loved that work. It was very nourishing.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: And so I think I also, it's where I learned
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: how nourishing therapy can be and how it can be
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: such a reciprocal thing. Like we grow and, you know,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: expand and feel nourished by the people we work with
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: just being in that role. So it was very powerful.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I felt like I learned so much.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Let me just, one more second here. So as you
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: were moving through your education at this stage, hospice, the
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: addiction context, how were you handling that? I mean, hospice
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: is no joke.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm kind of weird, I think, because I'm
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: 36 years, and I've probably done 33,000 to 34,000 psychotherapy sessions,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: and I'm not burnt out.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm not talking about burnt out.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: But they're connected, because I literally feel nourished. So I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: feel it is a privilege to actually work with people,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: and I feel that nourishment.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Undoubtedly. But was there a time where you were, what,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: impacted by the, can we say death, the process of
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: dying can sometimes be traumatic. The process of facing our
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: existence or demise can be, for some of us, very trying.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: What Did you experience any of that?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't. Maybe it's because it felt like
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: such a missing experience for me. I so wanted support
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: and somebody to help facilitate and somebody to be there.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: And then I got to be in that role. So
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: to me, I felt more honored. And I almost felt
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: like I received that, you know, almost something, a healing
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: experience myself at helping people with what I could never have.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And what didn't happen for me. So I really didn't.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, people used to think I was kind of weird, honestly. Like,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you love this? I'm like, yes, I love this. Because
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I would feel so sort of honored and such a privilege.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So to me, it was just really beautiful. You know,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: death is so poignant. Working with people, it's like, what
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: else is there, right? And so there was something about
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the power of it that I felt almost like an awe,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: you know, of getting to be involved in it.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. So we were talking about Hikomi.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And we were talking about what kind of impact, how
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you were impacted by that. What happens after that?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one of the things I really got that
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: that was great about was the idea of how people
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: get stuck in core beliefs. And so how our core
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: beliefs are often a way we will stop our own
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: expansion or our own growth if we think it's our
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: fault or we're not good enough. Like that will actually
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: stop the healing process. So I really learned all about that.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And I loved it, but the information on the nervous
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: system was coming out more. And so I started getting
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: very interested in that because I could also see that
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: it could be very dysregulating to sort of do some
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: of this work for the clients. And, you know, what
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: did that mean then? So I started doing, I started
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: a somatic experiencing training. And I had gotten exposed to
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: polyvagal theory a little bit before that. But the somatic
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: experiencing training was also pretty amazing. Because really working with
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the idea of shifting the nervous system, I felt like
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that combination, I was really finding a way to help
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: people even more. Because it was all really going through
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: the body. And then I learned about polyvagal theory later.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: And I got tutored by the first book. I literally
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: hired somebody to help me understand it because I didn't
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: understand it. And so I had somebody who we literally
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: would go through the pages and talk about it because
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: most of the stuff was just more about biology. And
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I kept thinking, wow, this is a deal. Like if
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: you look at the idea of physiological state, like that's
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: kind of everything. And if you can change that, then
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: what does that mean for people? So that became then
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: my quest after that was what I've been doing really,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you know, very focused in on polyvagal theory for over,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe close to 20 years. Just like
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: how do you then operationalize and make this useful to people?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Like what gets people better? Because the real goal of
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: therapy is have a good life. Like that's what we want,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: full-hearted living. So to me, I kept my focus on that.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: And that's what really I found inspiring about learning about
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: polyvagal theory and then my own path to kind of
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: operationalize it.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: What is polyvagal theory?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: So polyvagal theory is essentially the science of safety. And
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: what it really talks about more than anything is we're
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: really looking at the idea of that when our clients
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: get stuck, there is underpinnings of physiological factors. state that
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: are based on threat. And that the nervous system has
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: not down-regulated into back to a state of safety. So
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: that became then, okay, how do we do that? But
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I've said enough about polyvagal theory
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: with that or if you want a little bit more.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Well, actually, I think what you said was very clear. Okay.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, you kind of distilled what, for many people,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: many of us feel can be complicated. I think you
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: distilled it. But polyvagal theory is a theory.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's a theory, but I tell you, a
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: lot of flat came out a few months ago. I
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: don't know if you saw a lot of questions.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't worry at all because I'm like, I go, people,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I'm 36 years in. I know, like, you can't unsee
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: threat states in people. Because polyvagal theory, you know, it
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: brings a beauty to human behavior because then it's just,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: this is what people do in threat. So it really
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: depathologizes so many things. You know, addiction. Addiction is simply
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: state management. If we're doing addiction, we aren't actually feeling
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that great, right? And so, you know, it begins to
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: just humanize our behavior. So I am just, you know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: really feel like I have put almost everything I do
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: into through the lens of polyvagal theory because no matter what,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: if you can shift the physiology, people start moving towards
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: better lives.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Give us an example, if you will, of how you
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: might work with a client who comes into your space,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: and how you might utilize polyvagal theory. How do you
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: start out?
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So right away, whatever presenting issue they bring in, whatever
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: it is, I begin to talk to them about threat
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: physiology and its connection to human behavior. So they might
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: be very judgy about how angry they've been or how
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: anxious they've been. And I'm immediately putting it in the
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: context of, yes, and this is your nervous system still
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: in survival. So what that does immediately is they kind
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of soften. There's a depathologizing that comes right out of
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: the gate. And then what I'm doing internally is I've
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: developed what I call the three maps of the nervous system.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: And they have a crossover and they're all a little different.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: But essentially, I'm wanting to understand where is this person stuck?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: So are they stuck in what I call general nervous
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: system functioning? meaning is the anxiety left over because I
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: was in such a bad situation and I couldn't escape?
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Or is the anxiety from co-regulation capacity? Did any, did
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: nobody ever soothe me when I was a child? You know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: did I never have that experience of actually getting really
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: down regulated? So is that where my gap is? Or
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: is it like a limiting belief, like a core belief,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you know, that is keeping the nervous system stuck, like
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: an anxiety. So is it, Did I grow up that
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I had to be so perfect that I'm driving myself
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: so hard? So with that, then what I end up,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you know, beginning to look at is where the nervous
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: system is stuck, you know, creates either an imprint is
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: what Steve Porches is talking about lately and Bessel's talked
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: about that, or gradual conditioning, you know, that actually creates
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: then a set of neural pathways where the system is stuck.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So what I'm looking for is what is the template
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: What is the intervention that's actually going to shift and
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: match where it stuck to begin to shift the physiology?
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking now about a client who actually came
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: in with a lot of pain issues and they would
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: move into such severe anxiety they were not functioning in
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: their life. So as we really work with it, there
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: was real pain, but really the driving issue was how
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: they were never soothed. So a lot of our therapy
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: was actually helping.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Hold on. How did you discover that?
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: By listening for history. Well, I'm using these maps in
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: my mind, but listening for history. So initially it was like,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: you know, the clients that say, oh, everything was great.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: My mom was so great. So I say, tell me
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit more about how that happened. Like, what
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: did that look like? And of course, there's no examples.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And so then it started to really look at the
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: way that the client didn't actually have any comfort. And
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: so then as we talked about that, and, you know,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: that really just unfolded. And I could also see a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: lot of self-reliance in the client. I could also see
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: that they didn't know how to let people.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: In, right?
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Like those two things go together. So as that became
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: kind of clear. So then I even started using our relationship. Like,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: let's just kind of feel I'm here with you now. Like,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: what is that like? And can that go into your body?
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And what does that feel like?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And then.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Just also for this particular client, like there was a
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: lot of an inability to cry because you cry alone.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: And then just having the experience of being in the
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: grief with somebody and having them be there and embodying that,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: that began to then shift the physiology.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Wow. This is what 35 years of experience looks like.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: So you started out by saying, you had this map, right,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: of three different things. I'm imagining that map could have
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: included three different things, five other things. Why those?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: They're really, I think, the determining things in the nervous
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: system for where things get stuck. And so, you know,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: what I'm always looking at is where's the nervous system stuck?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: What's actually holding it back from really our essence like
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: right because when we're in trauma state we're not ourselves
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: so much we're not in our true selves our essence
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: which to me is what we're always trying to restore
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: so those three maps actually feel like the three broad
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: categories of where i see people stuck and so they
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: they kind of fit for.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Me so you talked about somatic experiencing polyvagal theory Go ahead.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: You were going to say something.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, but so those were all influences. Like really
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: general nervous system functioning is almost like pulling in pieces
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: of somatic experiencing. But I do everything a little different,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I suppose. And then Hakomi, where I learned about core beliefs.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: And then co-regulation was just simply the attachment lens. You know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: those are the ways the nervous system gets stuck. So,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you know, you begin to get indicators of people are
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: letting you know and that's what you're listening for through attunement.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Where is the system stuck? What are they telling me about,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I could imagine the importance of being present and all
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: that as the therapist.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I love that you're saying that because it's actually everything.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So I love that you're picking up on that because
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: there's not a training I do that actually isn't focused
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: in on presence. Like it's in every single training. Because
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: we are the vessel. And so Dan Siegel talks about
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the idea that we literally get more information and intuition
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: when we're in our presence. And I think that there's
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: always a parallel process of our presence, meaning when we
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: get caught in our own developmental wounding, which I certainly have,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I'm less present. So if I start thinking, I've got
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: to be a good therapist, I'm no longer with the client, right?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I'm with me. And so we have to learn to
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: manage that stuff to actually stay in true presence. If
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: we're kind of doubting ourselves or going, oh my gosh,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: and I don't know what to do, all of that,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: we move away from the client. So I love that
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you really honed in on that because I actually think
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: that it's the most important thing to start with.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was something that I,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: when I was practicing, I learned the hard way Um,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I had to learn it the hard way and there
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be anything, almost anything more important than
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: being able to create an environment where the, the, the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: client sitting in front of you, if you're, if you're
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: present enough and I would even say authentic enough such
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: that they can feel, uh, authentic themselves alive. I mean, that,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that is, that is in and of itself, the foundation
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: of healing.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I love that you brought in the word authenticity.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Just love that because I do feel that we all
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: just want another real human on the other side of us.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: And so, so I'm always, I, that's when I work
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: with therapists, I talk to them a lot about, I
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: don't want you to do what I do when I'm
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: training them. I want you to feel you like you
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: can use these skills, but you're not trying to be
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: like me. We really want you to be like you
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: because authenticity sends a signal of safety. So people feel
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that if we're not, you know, so it even means
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: sometimes like, Oh, like, you know, some, like I had
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: a sick child for a while, but I'd be like,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I'm have some stuff going on today. You know, just
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: something I might have to say something that you can't
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: even do that with everybody. But, um, because some people
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: it's would take on too much, but, The whole idea
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: is we do have to actually work on cultivating it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: And I think it's an under-talked-about thing, so that's why
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Still? Yes, still. Why?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Because I think that therapists feel they have to be
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: perfect and that they can't be dysregulated. What I'm trying
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: to say, bring in that message of be who you
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: are Let's make this that we're human first. We're going
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to move into threat and more just how do we
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: work with it? What do we do that's going to
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: actually bring us more towards the client? So it's sad
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: to me the kind of pressure people put on themselves essentially.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised but not surprised to hear that. How long
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: did it take you to understand the importance of that?
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: You know, I really got it in my Hikomi training.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: So it was drilled in. And, you know, they had
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: a beautiful presence practice that was essentially about moving into
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: loving kindness and trusting the other's journey, the unfolding. So
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: there was sort of, I really learned it there, and
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I feel deeply grateful for that. Because, you know, this
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: goes back to one other thing you said that I
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: really believe in, is that I don't, I'm very caring,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: but I think the reason I don't take on Like
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: what's happening is I have full belief in somebody else's journey.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Meaning I really don't know what's best for you. I
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: really don't. And so if I don't know what's best
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: for you, who am I to wish something wouldn't have
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: happened to you? Who am I to, because who knows
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: what's going to develop from this? So to me, this
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: belief in their journey and that they have what it
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: takes is so important. And it is part of presence.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Like we're literally wanting to send the signal that we
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: believe in their, you know, organic unfolding.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I love it. Arubjo, as we kind of wind down here,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: let's talk about the work you're doing now.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm doing a lot of writing right now,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: and so I have a new book from Norton. I'm
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: working with the imprint of childhood sexual trauma, so I'm
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: very excited about that. And I just had a book
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: come out in May on polyvagal theory and post-traumatic growth
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: and resilience. I'm doing a training this week on post-traumatic
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: growth in my own hometown, and I work for the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Polyvagal Institute. So I'm doing, I do a course for them.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I think it's polyvagal theory in the therapy room. That'll
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: be starting in February. And I'm also going to go
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: to Spain next week and I'm going to be part
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: of the, yeah, I'm excited about that.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I'm doing one. I think it's on the somatic applications
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: of polyvagal theory as a workshop there in Spain.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So you've got, Applied Polyvagal Theory for Resilience and
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Post-Traumatic Growth, A Clinician's Guide.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: That book is out now, and it just came out
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: in May. And that actually goes into a lot of
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: what I was talking to you about, and actually almost everything.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: I talk so much about presence, the three maps of
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the nervous system, and how to begin to shift the physiology.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: So that's my thing, is... Shift the physiology in every
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: session so that you're literally training the nervous system to
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: begin to have a different template.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And when you say shift the physiology, does that, I mean,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing that can be done in various ways.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: It can, but I'm a little picky about the way
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I think it should be done.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of the things I think is out
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: there is there's a lot of stuff right now in
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: polyvagal theory about teaching state management. So state management might
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: be you do some breathing exercises. What I want to
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: get under is why do you need to do the
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: breathing exercises? So like I just did a demo online
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: last week for a group, and this person immediately started
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: doing breathing exercises. And I said, so state management, I
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: call that faux deactivation. We are shifting the nerve, we're
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: deactivating the nervous system, but we're not getting a permanent,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: enduring change. So I had her kind of stop. I said,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: feel what your breathing's doing. And just notice you're trying
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to take care of yourself, but I wonder if we
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: could set that aside. I want to see what's there.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: So then what happened was both a lot of emotion
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: and wanting to express themselves. And so then we got
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: a true deactivation. They didn't need to keep doing deep breathing.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: So there's nothing wrong with deep breathing. Like I tell
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: my clients, you know, do this, you know, all the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: time on the outside. The deal is it's about something
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: if you need to do constant deep breathing. Your nervous
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: system is in a fixed state. What we want to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: do then is really shift the physiology in the area
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: it's stuck so you don't have to keep doing that.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: And really, by the end of the session, that had happened.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: She didn't have to do her deep breathing to kind
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: of keep managing through. I love it. Yeah, it's fun. Mm-hmm.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: All right, so how do people learn more about you,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: your books, your courses, what you're doing? What's the best way,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Rupert Jo?
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, come to Southwest Trauma Training, my website. You can
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: just look that up. You can check out the Polyvagal Institute.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: They have just started to access my course. I think
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: that's up now. And my book is available through Norton,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com. Local booksellers, wherever you get your books.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: We'll have all of that linked up here at the
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Ruby Jo, loved it.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: So glad to have met you. So glad to have
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: met you. And I really appreciate the work you're doing.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: It's very inspiring.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I'm inspired. So thank you. I appreciate that.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I love it. All right. We'll be in touch. Take care.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you.