Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / Endometriosis Through My Eyes: A Surgeon and Fertility Specialist Who’s Been There with Dr Mei Cheah

Transcript

Endometriosis Through My Eyes: A Surgeon and Fertility Specialist Who’s Been There with Dr Mei Cheah · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Expert insight about fertility, healing, and creating family.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Liz Watson.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Helen Z.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about it all.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional high at least.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Not just with an extraordinary fertility doctor and surgeon, but also a woman who has experienced endometriosis and what it entails.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to go into the ins and outs of living a life more fully as well through the symptoms and a condition.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are joined by Dr.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: May Chen, who is not your average fertility specialist.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: She is a surgeon and co-founder of Create Fertility and a total powerhouse in women's health.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Based in Melbourne, May blends her science, empathy, and surgical precision to support people through some of the most personalized chapters of their lives: fertility, IVF, and endometriosis.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's incredible is she's also recognized in STEM leadership by the Victorian government.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And May's mission is clear empowering women with knowledge, options, and real unfiltered support.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're in for a treat today.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Dr.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: May, for taking your time out on a Saturday as we are recording this to have a chat.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Alan, for that amazing introduction.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm flawed.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're you really flatter me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also thank you for you know accommodating me on on a weekend, as you know, our work schedule is rather unpredictable sometimes.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: But this is what that you're welcome, and this is the preface.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: When we are working and and and trying to manage and mitigate uh IVF conditions, fertility delays, endometriosis symptoms, they don't have a day off on a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon or at 3 a.m.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: in the morning.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes part of our daily life.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel this is just a beautiful representation of just wanting to show up and share.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because yes, it is not time-bound, is it?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and often, you know, sometimes we question why me?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why am I the one, you know, having to deal with this condition?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: But this is the card that we've been dealt with, and we only have one life, and you know, you gotta live your life to the fullest.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I I often tell my patients that because we don't yet have a cure for it, we just really need to learn how to manage the conditions to the best of our ability.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, build build your village.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not something that we are going through ourselves.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that is where you know disseminating knowledge and empowering people with with all the the options is so important so that they don't feel like it's just me going through this alone.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's it can be so incredibly isolating.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: The the symptoms that we have, some that can maybe be physically seen, but a lot of what endo impacts can't be seen.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: It is not a broken arm, it is it's not a cut that you know, when when people see that, oh you've you've got a broken leg, there is that element of immediate sympathy and wanting to help.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: With endo, a lot of it is internal and yet it affects every single aspect of our lives.
• 5:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for sharing.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: What has it been like living with endometriosis as well as your following your sensational career and surgical skill set as a fertility specialist and a surgeon?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It can be tough, and some some days are harder than others, and I'm, you know, not gonna lie.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are days that you, you know, are in bed in pain, and you're like, oh, I've got an operating list tomorrow.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have to, you know, be ready for this because I have to be giving my 100%.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's just no margin for error because we're dealing with people's lives.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I think over the years, I have, I don't know whether or not it's uh coping, but I've also garnered a lot of like, I guess, um, like you said, coping mechanisms to to deal with those symptoms.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of know what my triggers are, I know, you know, how and when I'm gonna have a bad um cycle and a bad time.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And just I guess learning how to minimize all that and having your village, yeah, I think that's what gets me by.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I tell my patients that it is not like you come to see somebody and you get this magic pill that will fix everything.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to take homework, homework within yourselves every day.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And to have people around you who are understanding and supportive of that journey is so important because it doesn't just affect you.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: It affects your colleagues, it affects your friends, it affects your partner, your relationships, how you can potentially show up for your kids, uh, which days you might need a little bit of extra support, picking up your kids from school or sending them to activities because you you just can't on those days.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it what I'm hearing is it becomes a study of self, like you get to know yourself from the inside out.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what will help is knowing how to use your voice to be able to ask for what you need from that village of support around you.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: That just feels like a big warm hug.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and sometimes I think your your village knows you so well that they don't even need to ask you.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: They kind of already know you're like, I'll do this for you today.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, it's yeah, that's that's that warm hug that, like you said, you don't even need to ask sometimes.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: People, yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned, uh, and I want to come into this a little bit deeper for our listeners and our conversation today.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned a couple of times that endometri endometriosis symptoms can affect many aspects of our lives, uh, intimacy, relationships, and even self-identity.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that we don't talk about this enough?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: What an interesting question.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think it women's health in general is still sort of not of the highest priority.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it is changing, and I have to give credit, you know, for all the additional um funding that we've gotten, all the additional um, you know, knowledge dissemination, educational um information.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: But what is allocated to women's health traditionally for decades have always been put on the backseat.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: When you present to see someone and you feel like, oh, maybe these symptoms are not quite right.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe what I'm experiencing is not normal.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Often you get told that, ah, you'll be fine.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's just period pain.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: You grow out of it, have a baby, it will get better.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think time and time again we we get sort of fed that information that after a while you feel like maybe I shouldn't bring it up anymore.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe maybe it's it's me.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm the only person like feeling this way because everyone else seems to think it's fine.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's maybe you know, a taboo topic.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like people are a little bit embarrassed to talk about the discomfort that they may be experiencing with with sexual intercourse or how they should really be feeling when when they're experiencing, like you said, intimacy and relationship.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they they may not even voice to anyone that actually, no, this is this is not enjoyable, this is rather painful, really.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and when to to, I guess, open up, the being comfortable enough to open up to someone, it takes a lot.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a whole journey to even get to telling someone.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree with you so much, and I'm glad that we are opening this conversation because in the work that I do and with the clients that I see, which I can touch on sexuality and intimacy.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when we have to endure and we think that we need to put up and shut up, that exacerbates our symptoms.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: It exacerbates our condition because we're just saying, well, you know what, I need to function.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I have to do this role, like being sexually intimate.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've been complaining for quite a few months.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've taken up a lot of space.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, those little as those little tiny aspects of ourselves of not good enough or taking up too much space, don't voice so much, go through the grit, you'll be better for it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And all this other, can I say, bullshit that just gets fed and fed and fed becomes undigestible.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes a point where all this then gets turned into internally, and it just hurts.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: It hurts us as women.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And to be able to have something and enjoy your body in a way that it is the body that you're living with, even if you do have some symptoms and conditions, as you said, the card that's being dealt with, there are ways of moving around intimacy that can preface not being so painful.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's ways that we can educate your partner and yourself to do different levels of intimacy and activities which aren't always sexually bound, to be able to enjoy the goodness of experiencing your whole body and also giving yourself the okay that if it's not feeling you're not feeling it, then you're not feeling it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And still being able to have that connection with your loved ones.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, that's my little No, it's it's so true.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think, you know, that's that's why I often I use this word, you know, your village a lot.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: But me too.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: It is actually true because endometriosis is not just one gynecological condition.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: It you you need to have, you know, your uh pelvic floor physiotherapist, you may need a you know relationship counselor, you may need a pain specialist, you may need um like it's it's a a you know fertility specialist.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: You there's there's just so much in there that you kind of just box the condition into one thing.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and that's where we go, yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we like you said, you you often just take it in and take it in, and we live in pain for you know such a long time that we don't even realize it sometimes that our pelvic muscles are so tight.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we may be able to do something to optimize that, to, you know, and like you said, enjoy the relationship, enjoy the intimacy.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: We may be able to be having uh sexual intercourse without that discomfort that we may then not need um help with fertility because to make a baby really we we need to have eggs and sperm to meet.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the most, I guess, natural way for them to meet is by sexual intercourse, yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I absolutely um yeah, I could go into some uh situations where actually I will, as we're saying about egg and sperm meeting and the pain of sexual intimacy.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm recalling a client that I, a couple client that I worked with, where they came to me and said, sex is so painful that we're just gonna look down the lens of IBF, but we want to have the mental mindset to do that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then I, you know, you screened for what do you do, what don't you do, um uh um sexual-wise, etc.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um long story short, we got to work through a and it's it wasn't rigid.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm about to say wasn't rigidity, but it was actually working through the monthly cycle whereby even with the male, him getting to experience lots of skin contact because the male body loves on you know predominantly lots of skin contact.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um working with that, also giving the female client certain exercises to do to relax beforehand, the two of them started to become intimate.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And by month three, they naturally conceived, and this is going from not having any sexual intimacy and feeling like the only pathway was to go through IVF.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I do know, and I'd love to talk about this with you as well, because I know that as a caring, empathetic surgeon and a and a and a woman who is living through the symptoms of endometriosis, what care and what difference do you bring to your patients?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think at the end of the day, you need to make them feel like they're a human, they're a human being, yeah, to feel heard and validated.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes when I share my own um troubles or issues, it it is also an element of them chatting to a friend and opening up, um, but also I'm giving them the the signs, the percentage, and you know, the the medical side of surgically, this is what we do.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: But the things that people then don't talk about is I think when you walk up from the surgeon's office, you think, okay, I'm gonna be prescribed surgery.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: When you walk out from a fertility specialist's office, you think you're gonna be prescribed IVF.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what I'm trying to do is that I am I am also a fellow patient.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think just sharing that and giving them the opportunity to voice uh what is important to them at that period of time in the medium-term period of time and the long term.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we all know that our priorities change throughout our reproductive lifespan.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: We may not think that we want to have a baby at all at the start, or we think, oh yeah, no, I'm gonna travel the world and you know, career women these days, I want to, you know, climb the ladder and then I'll I'll think about maybe having a baby in three years or five years.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think knowing that and being able to then work together with, okay, so now we focus on this, but this is the information that we've got at the moment.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Your endo is at this stage, your egg reserve is such and such.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do we have a person or a sperm source um in the picture or not?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can formulate a plan of optimizing the endo symptoms for the now and also what it could then mean in the longer term.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes just being able to bounce ideas of like, um often they ask me, oh, so what do you eat?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or like, you know, what do you do to be able to be like so functional because you're busy and you go, go, go all the time.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I've tried, you know, try my my own sort of trial and error for decades.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that, you know, if I don't sleep well, if I've been up on call, or if I've you know had something uh stressful, or you know, things that have um impaired my immune system, those sort of things will will make my flares worse.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think just going through the not so scientific, not so medical things is also sometimes very helpful for them.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that because it really is.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's lifestyle factors that can make a difference overall in people's symptoms.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so when surgery is needed, when intervention is needed through fertility treatment as well, maybe it's not going to be as much, maybe it's not gonna be as long.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And because ultimately you've got you might you'll have the condition after having children as well.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing what works in that uh pre-conception healthcare in managing and mitigating your symptoms, it's so much power.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, you're about empowering the woman to have her choices, and that's what I'm hearing in this conversation with you today.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: I guess, yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I guess what I'm trying to point out is that I'm really just a regular person.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: But through also regular and and uh with a bucket load of wisdom and knowledge that you were willing to impart through you also being a surgeon and a women's health specialist.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I guess when you have been a sufferer of the condition and maybe having been a receiver of, you know, some um not so amazing advice, you want to place yourself I I don't know, maybe it's just a passion driven by by your own trauma.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um that I I want to leave this world a better place because of what I can do and what I can give.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, help.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Even if I can help like, you know, five people that's you know, five extra people that that I've made lives better for.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely with you on that one.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about surgery because I know that it's not what what you're saying here, and we'll say this again, it's not a cookie-cutter approach that you have surgery first, or we collect eggs because there's uh endometriosis.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And let's talk about the difference also between endometriosis and adiomyosis.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Adenomyosis?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Adenomyosis.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know that that gets bandied around a lot.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know when people come to see me, that's a conversation that I have with them as well.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: But you're you are the best person to talk about it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: But let's also talk about surgery because I know that there's people that will preface like it works, it doesn't work, it comes back, have surgery before going for treatment, and within two months you're most fertile.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there is lots that's gone out there for people um, you know, searching for information in forums.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about is surgery a cure for endometriosis and what the reality can be for someone.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, cure for endometriosis?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Simple, nothing, zero, no, nothing cures endometriosis.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing what?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing cures endometriosis.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: There is no cure for endometriosis.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So medicine, surgery, they don't, they don't cure endometriosis.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, I think, that's the evilness of it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we still don't know what really, really causes it.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why we don't yet have a cure for it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever methods we've got, be it medical, surgical, they are all just helping us manage the symptoms, and it may give us a window for us to do what we feel is important at that time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: So surgery, um, when it comes to, you know, when to do surgery, it's it's obviously in correlation with her symptoms and what other, you know, are they are they battling infertility or not?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Are they, you know, uh have they been trying?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when it comes to doing surgery, do we do, like you said, do we do surgery before doing IVF or do we go the other way around?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: There is absolutely no real right or wrong answer because endometriosis is so it's so personalized.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: The disease, um, how it affects us in terms of symptoms and what organs it is affecting and to what degree of severity it is affecting is different for everyone.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, there's also a lot of like, I guess, you know, scaremongering out there that if you have endometriosis, you'll be infertile, which is absolutely untrue.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But having said that, there are some patients with endometriosis that in reality really falls into the really hard basket when it comes to fertility treatment, because when we do have endometriosis, depending on again, the degree of severity, it may affect our egg quality.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we tend to have less aches.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: We tend to have poorer quality eggs because our eggs have been living in this pro-inflammatory environment, especially if we've got an endometrioma, which is like endometriosis cyst in the ovary.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and like you said before, endometriosis and adenomyosis can often coexist because they are like, they're kind of like cousins of each other.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Adenomyiosis is kind of like the the presence of endometrial cells, but inside the muscle of the uterus.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Endometriosis is this endometrial-like cells being present anywhere but, so anywhere outside, can be in the ovaries, can be on your bowels, can be on your bladder, can be, it's been found in every organ in our body.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So they can coexist adenomyiosis and endometriosis.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: For a patient, for example, if their endometriosis is so severe that it is affecting the anatomy of their reproductive organs, if their fallopian tubes are scarred and stuck together, if the fallopian tube is blocked, if they've got endometriomas, that already gives us less eggs.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the eggs that we have when we ovulate because it's stuck in that pro-inflammatory environment, the ovulation pain may be really severe and unbearable.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Then we may have difficulty transporting the egg to meet with the sperm because our fallopian tube is stuck and blocked.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And when it comes to implantation, if we do also have adenomyiosis and in the severe sense of adenomyiosis, that will also impair implantation.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So every step of the way, you know, it's it's like it's so unfair for us.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, first of all, it might be really difficult to access the ovary in an IVF cycle to be able to get the eggs.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: We then tend to get less eggs because our AMH is lower.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: The quality of the eggs that we have tends to be poorer because you know they tend to look darker and not as fluffy.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and when we do overcome all those steps to make an embryo, we have to put it back in maybe in an environment that is not as conducive.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, like every step, why do we have to be the one on the losing end?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: But but you know, that is the reality of some of us endo sufferers.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Some patients with endo have a few spots of endo, and they may not even need anything, they may not even know they have endometriosis.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah, do not have any trouble conceiving, do not have any pain.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the spectrum of how it can affect someone is so vast.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's why when we try to just find information from social media or whatnot, um, it is social media is kind of like this double-edged sword.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's amazing for disseminating information, but it's also like a source of a heap of misinformation and disinformation.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like you're in a tennis match blind.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like really, really.
• 27:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Eyes covered.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where is this coming from?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Coming.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to shoot some balls on this side.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm getting some wins on this side.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: But as you said at the beginning of our conversation, just because you go and see a fertility specialist or a surgeon does not mean that you're going to walk away needing surgery and fertility treatment.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So why not go and get properly diagnosed for you as a whole person, whole-centered health approach?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because from this conversation, Dr.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: May, you are just not looking at a woman based under a microscope of her just being a womb, ovaries, and potentially other spots in her organs of her body.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: You are looking and treating her for the whole person that she is.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully for the rest of her reproductive life.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of her reproductive life.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the encouragement is to come, come for, come for a consult, come do the proper diagnostics for yourself.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I do also know that diagnostics are quite difficult for endometriosis.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like doing a cholesterol test and you've got a range and you're within that range.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I also know that the diagnostics for endometriosis can be a little bit of hit and miss as well.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to be able to talk about that as well because I wanted to talk to you about the future hope of um the condition of endometriosis, and part of that is also um uh the diagnostic tools I know I see through my feeds because I'm 55 now, but my feed is all about fertility, endo, women's health.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yeah, it's what I'm interested in.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's your algorithm, yeah.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's my algorithm, right?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also just seeing.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I you can pass on this comment, but also seen recently like endometriosis can be tested through skin cell testing in the near future.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's so much that's out there, and people are like, oh, well, why aren't we doing this now?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I have to go for a laparoscopy?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Why, why, why?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wanting to bring this up because for the listeners that are going through this journey, I'm wanting to make sure that we are giving them the information to informed decisions based on what we know and is trusted now, not something that might be futuristic, that we continue going and be misdiagnosed or suffering through pain when there can be other things that can help someone.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think the diagnosis of endometriosis is not as easy as yes or no.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you have it or you don't.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, you can have it and not even know that you have it because it doesn't affect your life in any way.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, it it or it can be pretty much all life consuming, really.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: It may affect your work, you know, being not not not being able to show up for work, you know, just being in pain, having to spend like time and money and resources to to deal with the symptoms that we've got, you know, having to I I think in some ways, maybe, you know, come to the realization that we may need a little bit of help uh conceiving, or it uh so it's it's not as simple as, like you said, you know, doing a a ideally a non-invasive test, you know, a swab on your tongue or something that will tell me I have endo and I have not.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: But even if you do or you don't, if it doesn't affect your life in any way, does it matter?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do you need to find out?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when it comes to you know diagnosis, that's sometimes what I ask my patients as well.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you need to find out yes or no?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't, and your scan hasn't shown that there's anything significant, because we know that if you order a good quality, uh what we call a KOGU pelvic ultrasound, looking for endometriosis in particular, with highly specialized um um ultrasound specialists.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, these are gynaecologists that have done special training in ultrasound.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if they can't see any endometriosis, most of the time we either don't have endometriosis or we may have what we call superficial disease.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we all know that superficial disease cannot be diagnosed on ultrasound.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but having to be able to have that ultrasound performed is like another journey altogether because they are, like you said, there are people that have such significant pain that we may not be able to tolerate an internal probe to be able to have that ultrasound done.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: That special ultrasound is able to tell us what our mobility of our pelvic organs are like.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's amazing.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: It gives us so much information for surgical planning.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if, let's say, we have had an ultrasound that says, well, we've got we've got endo, very likely we will have endo.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't need that 100% yes or no diagnosis, and you just want to feel better at that particular point in time in terms of pain symptoms, and you're not yet trying for a baby, um, you may not need to have any invasive testing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you may not need to go and have that laparoscopy right now.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you may then want to park the laparoscopy for later in life when you're actually thinking of potentially maybe coming off hormonal management.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, okay, I'm gonna be coming off this treatment now, my pain's probably gonna come back, I need to be able to be having sex comfortably because I want to try for a baby.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then the longer I'm off the pill and I'm not on any treatment, my endo could get worse, and that may be the sweet spot to have the laparoscopy to then have a clean out, normalize your pelvic anatomy and have your tubes flushed at that time.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and that is the golden window.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, but but that journey is different for everyone.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes when women come to to sit in front of me, they've already been through the rings, they've they've been through, you know, seeing three, four, five people, and they're like, I'm done.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: I need to have a diagnosis.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the population where you go, okay, these are the risks of having a laparoscopy, these are the benefits of having the laparoscopy.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then they make that decision because they they're the ones empowered to make that decision to say, you know what, yeah, now is the time that I want to have the laparoscopy because I need that validation.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I am not crazy.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so many women will be in, have been and will continue to be in great hands with you, Dr.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Chica, Dr.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: May.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I I feel like, you know, we we are only trying to, we're only trying to do our part.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and it is, I was sharing with one of the other doctors I was uh did a podcast with only last week, and uh, you know, we're talking about the superpower, and it was like having the ability to heal people.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, but you already have that because it is part of that collective.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is the the skills, the technology, all this information that comes down for our humankind is being met with people like yourselves that are wanting to make that difference.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so these end up being the healing hand healing hands that are called that that finitely with surgical precision precision is able to make that difference.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we just forget that these anaesthetists, the everyone that's involved, the people that do the bloods, the people that are in the surgery, etc., they're part of the healing team.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: You are the healers, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: In the ultimate sense.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is the reminder that I love also saying to my um clients as well.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I get them to do when they're going through fertility treatment is set up a fertility altar.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it needs to be living, breathing, like I've got little altars around my place, and they're just like my little places that it's like, this is what this represents, this is what this represents.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I might put a new candle on there, or I might be walking for my morning walk, and I'm thinking of something, and then there is something that I find that is a very unique leaf shape, and I'm like, that's come right at the time that I've had my thoughts.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna go on my living altar.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I say to my people all the time, if you are going through IVF treatment, I want a representation of your medication on your altar.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, What?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I went, it's not because you're at the center of this.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: You are trying to eat well, you are trying to go to bed well, you are wanting to be in intimacy, to be able to create your body, your baby, and you are also taking medication and going through diagnostics to be able to make this happen.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you're at the center of all of it.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: So why wouldn't we have everything as being so sacred that this is everything that you are doing to bring your child forward?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you separate that part?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's just become so absolutely empowering for people to then embrace the medical side of the journey because, as you said, you've got the choice.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're giving people, even with a laparoscopy, the choice of when they're going to go and do it and potentially the benefits that they're gonna get from it, because now is the time.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I find it interesting when you say, you know, we are healing them, but also in the journey of us being able to do that and them finally bringing, you know, their baby in for a cuddle, and you know, like I think seeing like you know, the the fruit of your labor also in essence heals us because I think and and like you said, you know, when you asked me earlier on what is the difference between you and someone else, you know, um being being an endo patient myself, is that they are things that that I I I won't have as well.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll be open, you know.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have I have my fertility challenges myself, and and I think when they bring in their babies and they they come with with you know their family, and sometimes they bring their moms and and the moms with the baby, so you see all three generations together, that heals me as well.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, so yeah circle of life, right?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it really is, yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: The circle of life, and as you said, my friend, this is the village, and I I can sense it so deeply because it's my what I talk about as well, is having the village building the village around you, and just like this person that's going through fertility challenges or you know, uh endometriosis, they're a village to somebody else's support.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're part of the village to somebody else's support.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just this, it's the mycelium network of life and what we get to experience in this lifetime.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, knowing that we have got a lot more information at our fingertips, knowing that the conversations around women's health, reproductive health, reproductive leave, uh, accepting endometriosis more widely, even in the career space, I feel is on the path of our future hope of our of our humankind.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the the complexity of it remains like twofolds.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like you said, the broader, you know, awareness, information, um, availability, and and you know, organizations recognizing these and all that sort of stuff.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that should not stop women from still seeing a specialist for their own personalized journey.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because those information that you will get, like you said, you know, there's so many things online.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do I do surgery?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do I not surgery?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this medication is evil, or that doesn't work, that one has lots of side effects.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And but that's not you.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: These are all noises that I mean, there are some very valuable information, but you need to know what is the right thing for you.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that that is where you still have to unpack that with the specialist, you know, for for your own journey.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I agree.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely agree.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, Doctor.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: I is there anything else you want to share before I want to ask you about if you had a superpower right now, what would that be?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: But is there anything else that you would like to add to this conversation?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I it's our Saturday and it's like we're having a cup of tea, and I could talk to you about this for quite a while.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be nice to be outdoor in the sunshine now that you know daylight savings has started.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I think my main piece of information is always if you feel like something is not right and you're not feeling like you're heard by the person that that you are speaking to, never be afraid to advocate for yourself.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Never be afraid to actually, you know, seek a second opinion, see someone.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Find yourself a a good JP that that is you know going to be the center, the the management person of of all of this.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, find yourself um a specialist that will that will listen and validate you.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and I think time and time again, I just try to drill that into everyone, that you don't always have to just put up with it because you've been told that it'll get better when you grow up a little.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, toughen up.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Toughen up.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, let's just smash that one.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about the tennis match before, so I reckon we we get that ball and we just smash that tennis ball way over the fence.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: We do not want that being played in our court at all, like put up, shut up, and all this kind of rubbish.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: No way, no, not on our watch.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, Dr.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: May, if you did have a superpower right now, um, something that you could uh uh yield your magic with, what would that be?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know, maybe clone myself so I can like, you know, see and and treat more people at one time.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if I can't, maybe I want to have the ability to like teleport so I can be somewhere nice, relaxing in Japan, you know, having a cultural holiday, drinking my matcha, but also like the next moment I can come back and do surgery.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: The next moment I can be like, you know, doing an embryo transfer and making a baby, and and I'll be back, like I don't know, in the Bahamas, like on the beach.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Multi, multi-dimensional.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wouldn't that be nice?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't that be nice?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: That also then I think makes you, I don't know, take things for granted.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I don't know.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe on the flip side I wouldn't change a thing.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I like that too.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I like that too.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because we are we are who we are because of our experiences that shapes us, I think.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all got we've all got our stories of how we got to where we get, yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: So many times we ask, how did you do this?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you doing this?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: How?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we've all got a backstory, and it was because of that and the backbone that we have established.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, we're able to help other people through the sharing of the wisdom of the village, which on that note, we are going to be doing in the next few weeks.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um prefacing also that this podcast is going to be out on for people to listen for a very, very long time.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: But at the moment, we are gearing up for the Melbourne Fertility Expo where you are going to delight our audience with um your presence as well.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you are so personable, and I really am looking forward to people coming to get to know you and you know, the know-like trust, which is very easily established even through this conversation today.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to thank you for being part of that village because we have created a postcode for a day where so many incredible people like yourself are coming to that village to be open and accessible for people of our community to come and be heard, to come and be seen, to kind of get pathways forward uh for themselves.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for saying yes.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, like I like you said, it's it's like talking to a friend, but with the knowledge really surgical stuff or really medical stuff.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think yeah, come chat to us as a person.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's enjoy this beautiful day ahead of us.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, if it's matcha on the on the whatever it is for us.
• 47:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Soak in some beautiful vitamin D, good for your general health and well-being, good for your fertility.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, I love that.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Last minute message trying to get that.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Last minute message, get the vitamin D under your skin.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Minimum of 10 minutes exposure of whole arms and legs on a daily basis.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Helen.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: If this podcast resonated, please share it.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Leave a review or subscribe.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: This helps us support more people that are on this path.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, the missing piece might be waiting in a story, your body's wisdom, or something new just made for you.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Take care, and we'll see you next time.