Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 34 - Are Stars Angels?

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Ep. 34 - Are Stars Angels? · Martyr's Row

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This week on martyrs row is the Milky Way the
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road to heaven was Mufasa an ancient star god
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or just Simba's dead dad was Stephen the martyr
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blibbity blabbu Was Stephen the martyr an astronomer
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it's Amos time three two one Saint Blandina.
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Saint Blandina, a slave in the Church of Lions,
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was in the persecution under Marcus Aurelius,
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subjected to cruel torments beyond the strength
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of nature. Frail in body, yet mighty in spirit.
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She was stretched upon the rack, scouraged, exposed
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to fire and to beasts. And in all confessed but
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this, I am a Christian and nothing wicked is
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done among us. Hung upon a stake in the amphitheater,
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she seemed as one crucified, so that the brethren,
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beholding her, were strengthened in their conflict.
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At the last, she was enclosed in a net and cast
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before a wild bull, whose horns tossed her till
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her spirit departed. Thus, this lowly handmaiden
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triumphed over cruelty, confounding the proud
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by her steadfastness. and leaving to the church
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a witness that the grace of Christ is perfected
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in weakness. And because she was the last to
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suffer, her death was a crown set upon the rest,
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sealing the testimony of the martyrs of lions.
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Anno Domini, 177. Hey, Paul. What's up? Hey,
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have you ever heard of the Via Martyrum? I don't
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think so. The Via Martyrum. Can you guess what
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language it is? It sounds like a DMV. It might
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be how I'm pronouncing it. Martyrum is M -A -R
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-T -Y -R -U -M. Okay. So maybe like a Martyrum?
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Martyrum? Like a martini rum? Wrong podcast.
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And then Via for life. The life martini rum?
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Yeah. No, the via martyrum. Okay. So it's the
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life of a martyr. It's Latin for sure. Well,
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you'll see. How about how about I read something
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for you? Okay. Okay. That will explain what it
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is. I'm just jumping into like, hold on, let
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me pull it out. Okay. Put on your, um, your reading
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like cloak. I don't know. It's a cloak. Yeah,
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I guess. Like a snuggie. Let's, let's walk. Do
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people still have snuggies? Oh, I'm sure. I'm
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sure that there are people that treat Snuggies
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like they did their blanket when they were a
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kid. Actually, I kind of did that. I thought
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they were the most ridiculous things on planet
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Earth. Yeah, and now you can't sleep without
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it? Yeah, one of my relatives... Well, I don't
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have it anymore. One of my relatives, she bought
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one for everyone in my family. Okay. And I was
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addicted to the thing. I was like, this is the
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most comfortable. And then someone burned it?
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Probably. Okay, so... Put on your snuggies. Put
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on your snuggies and your warm coats and your
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blanket over your head. Let's take a step down
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into the basement, into the cool, calm space.
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Not the creepy basement, the cozy basement. The
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fireplace? Yeah, there you go, okay. Go into
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the den, into the fireplace. Okay, yeah, no creepy.
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And join us for story time. The Via Martyrum.
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On a clear night in the high Alps, when the air
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was sharp and the valleys lay dark, the heavens
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opened in a white river of light. The peasants
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and pilgrims who tilted their faces upward did
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not see scattered stars only. They saw a road
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of souls. It was said that the Milky Way was
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the Via Martyrum. the road of the martyrs, the
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path blazed in heaven by those who had shed their
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blood for Christ. Each gleam was a witness, each
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flicker a voice that once cried out under the
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sword of the flame. Together they formed not
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chaos, but a procession, a glittering column
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across the sky, guiding the faithful as surely
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as the smoke of sacrifice once rose from the
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altars. To the storytellers of the Rhine and
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the pilgrims of the mountains, this radiant road
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belonged especially to the legions of martyrs,
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the countless hosts of Saint Maurice and his
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companions, slain where earth meets snow and
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stone. Their spirits, it was believed, marched
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still, arrayed in heavenly ranks, and so, when
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the weary traveler looked up, He did not see
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a cold galaxy, but a celestial pilgrimage route.
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Proof that death was not an end, but a journey.
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The Milky Way itself became a sermon in the sky.
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Follow, endure, and you too shall walk the shining
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road of martyrs into eternal light. Via martyrum.
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I like that. Isn't that cool? I like that a lot,
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yeah. So I was looking at this idea of like...
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And I was laughing myself, in my head I heard
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Vita. Okay. That's why I was like, life? Well
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I may have been like just blending all these
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words together. Then I heard I was like, no,
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V is road. I was like, what am I? Well, I think
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all of it together. You said life. Via is life.
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Yeah. In like, like Viva la Vita. Is that what
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you're thinking? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Viva.
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Viva. Yeah, or Vita. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.
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But yeah, so I was like, ah, oops, ah, can't
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win them all. So via martyrum is the road of
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martyrs. And one of the things I was thinking
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about is basically this. I was thinking about
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the fact that I came across this the other day
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and I was like, oh, we haven't talked about this
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specifically. We've alluded to it. But on martyrs
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row, one of the things that we haven't talked
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about is where does the word martyr come from?
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Oh, I guess. No, I think we did talk about that.
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Did we talk about it explicitly? It might have
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been like an episode one. Okay. So it's a good
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refresh for us as well. Okay. Well, what did
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we talk about? What do you know about where the
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word martyr comes from? I'm trying to pull it
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all into my head. Don't worry. They don't know
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anything, so we're not spoiling it. I remember
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talking about it, but I can't remember any of
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the information. I feel like we alluded to some
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of it, but we didn't specifically say this. Which
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is possible. Okay, so, martyr... I don't even
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know what it is. The word martyr actually comes
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from the Greek word, martereo, or martyria, or
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martereon. So these three uses of the word in
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Greek. And those words in Greek... translate
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to English in like the biblical translation as
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witness. So the Greek word for our English word
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witness is martyrian or martyrio or martyria
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which then evolved to martyr. That's really interesting.
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As a transliteration. Yeah. We've talked about
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that a little bit before. So the word for witness
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is actually also the word, the Greek word where
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we get the word martyr. That's cool. Because
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a martyr is a witness, right? Yes. Which is cool.
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So I wanted to pull that up. So Acts 1, 8. So
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when they had come together, they asked, Lord,
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will you at this time restore the kingdom of
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Israel? He said to them, it is not for you to
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know times. or seasons that the Father has fixed
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by his own authority. Watch the last few episodes
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for that. But you will receive power when the
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Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be
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my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and
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Samaria and to the end of the earth. That's martyress.
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He's saying you will be my martyrs in Jerusalem
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and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of
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the earth. That's so interesting. Yeah, and then
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jump to And where you see this parallel where
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it almost comes out directly is Revelation 2
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.13, which we've read from this before. You know
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where you dwell, where Satan's throne is, yet
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you hold fast my name and you did not deny my
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faith, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful
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witness. Witness is martyr there, my faithful
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martyr who was killed among you where Satan dwells.
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So it's this parallel meaning where it's not
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that it doesn't mean witness, that it's not a
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mistranslation. It's that extra connotation.
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Yes. That literally the Greek word is where we
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get the word martyr from. And it looks like it's
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martyring. It looks like it says martyr. So it's
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kind of cool. Did it carry that same context
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then, or did it just mean witness as we would
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think of the word? Oh, I think it... It was witness.
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Okay, so it didn't carry about, like, death for...
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No, because even in the Revelation passage, it
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says he was killed. Yeah. Yeah. So it kind of
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carries both. It'd be redundant if it... For
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sure. Yeah, it's a translation. So, witness.
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And the usage in the New Testament refers to
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someone who bears testimony, whether in a legal
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sense, like giving evidence in court, or in a
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broader spiritual sense, bearing witness to Christ.
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Over time it also came to mean someone who testifies
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to the faith by dying for it, hence our English
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word martyr. So witness. So kind of evolved over
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time. Which is pretty cool. That is cool. But
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one of the things I think I was thinking about
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in that is the relationship between, is there
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a relationship between martyrs and the stars?
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when I was looking at that, it brought me to
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Daniel 12 .3 and it says, Daniel 12 .3, those
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who are wise shall shine like the brightness
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of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness
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like the stars forever and ever. And early Christians
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applied this to martyrs, believing their souls
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became eternal stars, lighting the sky of heaven
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with their witness. That's cool. The imagery
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became common in the sermons and martyrologies.
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Martyrs equaling stars in the firmament of the
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church. That's fascinating. Yeah. So looking
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up, it was almost like the saints were adding
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to the firmament or the second heaven as a witness
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to Christ along with other spiritual beings.
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That's fascinating. So it's almost like I wonder
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if some of that came from the Stevens martyrdom
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as well. It does. OK. Yeah. That's the first
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thing I thought of was like his face was literally
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shining. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He there is reference
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to Stephen as you look this up. But yeah, because
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the one who is is shining. But yeah. But that
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idea of like you go back to Genesis one, which
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we talked about, that he set the stars in the
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place as a sign. Yes. That God did that. And
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so the. there's this idea that the martyrs then,
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when they die, they are set in the sky as a witness,
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based on the Daniel 12 passage. That's cool.
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That it's almost like they get stuck up in the
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firmament as a witness to Christ and a sign to
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the church. Yeah. And so I thought that was cool.
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Like the Via Martyrum is like, it's mainly in
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the Rhine or in like, Swedish or Sweden, Switzerland,
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like in that area is mainly where that comes
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from. But they looked at the Milky Way and they
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called it the Via Martyrum. Which is pretty sweet.
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That's pretty sick. It says, in parts of medieval
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Europe, especially along the Rhine and in alpine
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regions, the Milky Way was nicknamed the Road
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of the Martyrs. It was believed to be the shining
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trail of the countless martyrs who had shed their
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blood, especially soldiers of Christ like the
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Thebans, making their way into heaven. Pilgrims
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sometimes connected it to their earthly pilgrimage
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roots. Looking up at the Milky Way was like seeing
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the heavenly highway of saints. That's so cool.
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It's cool, right? That's cool. It's one of those
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that makes me think on a fun side. Yeah? totally
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just me making something up. Okay, do it. Which
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is, it's cool. It's like when you look at, so
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it says in Genesis that the Lord, that God created
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the stars as a sign, as for signs. Yeah. Things
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that testify to who He is and what He's done.
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Right. And we talked about it on a previous episode
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about, we have like the zodiac lining up with
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the birth of Christ. Yeah. Which is a fascinating
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thing. Yeah. And it's like, oh, it's in one of
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those where, because of the The curse that was
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given to the serpent that he was cast down to
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earth, right? It's like, oh like his his star
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was removed like his testament was removed. Oh,
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that's fun He was no longer giving testimony
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to the Lord. Yeah, and then in a way it's like
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oh and the martyrs were placed back up there
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It's like they took the place of the angels that
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had fallen. That's kind of cool. It's like that's
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actually a really cool idea Yeah, so the third
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of heaven that fell no longer bear witness in
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the skies. Yeah but instead that hole is filled
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by the saints of the church. That's kind of cool.
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It's a cool idea. We're creating new church tradition.
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New church legend. I'm sure someone will be happy
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to pick it up and adapt it. Let's go. I just
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thought that was cool. So the Via Martyrum, the
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road of the martyrs being the Milky Way in the
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night sky. I thought that was pretty cool. I
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feel like we need to start calling it that again.
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So martyr is the evolution of the word witness,
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or sorry, it's the Greek word where we get witness
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from. So those two things tie together. So when
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we talk about the martyrs, we're talking about
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those who witness of Christ even in their death.
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It's pretty cool. And the stars are where they
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reside. Not the same as Mufasa. Three, two, one.
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Countless fires across the sky Whisper promises
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burned and bright Every spark is a holy sign
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And you're come and it shines Stars shine with
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stories of hope And ancient flames that never
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grow cold And they were told to bed last night
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They showed me you They showed me Some are angels
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at the post Heaven's armies are radiant hosts
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Some have fallen, but some remain Glory still
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lackers his Stars shine with stories of hope
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And ancient flames that never grew cold And there
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was hope to bathe the hymns tonight They show
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me you They show me you They show me you The
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light. The light. Well, how about we just jump
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right into it instead of doing what we always
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do? Okay. All right, I have a question for you.
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You're doing it. Wait, hold on. Let me slow down,
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though. This isn't how we do it. I don't want
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to say it so fast that, you know what I mean?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I say it too quickly, no
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one can understand. Or they could just read the
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title of the episode. Nah. I mean, whoops. Oopsie
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doopsies. Paul, I'm just gonna go right into
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the question tonight. Okay. Because... if anyone
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is paying attention, they've already heard this
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word many, many times up until this point in
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this episode. Is everything linked together before
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we go in to record an episode? Sometimes. We'll
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see. Sometimes it's just a happy little accident.
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Okay, so we've talked about a bunch of different
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spiritual beings and things that exist outside
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of just humanity, but then also like, kind of
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in the ecosphere of Martyrs Row, we have all
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these layers of talking about, or at least mentioning
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that like, not everything is an angel, or not
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everything is a demon, or not everything is the
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devil, right? And so it's like, all right, there's
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all these layers to it. But what is interesting,
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I feel like is, Sometimes there are things described
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in the Bible using poetic language, using descriptive
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language that parallels or it represents something
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else. So the question that I have for you tonight
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is, Paul, are angels stars? Nope, see you guys.
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That's a great question. Say it one more time.
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Are angels stars? That's so good. Or our star's
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angels. Oh. I don't know that it matters if we
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reverse it. No, I think it kind of means like
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juju equal. Well, actually. Juju equal. Actually,
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I feel like asking it, yeah, our star's angels
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might make more sense because then it's like,
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wait. Was Mary just staring at a giant star?
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Well, I guess, hold on, maybe. But there was
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a star in the sky. Let's go. Right? That's true.
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And the star shined bright above them. That's
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true. Was that star that shone bright above them,
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was that just a collision of planets? Or was
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that representative language of an actual being?
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Yeah. that was in some ways protecting or shining
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in that instance as a beacon to say something's
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happening right here. You know what I mean? So
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like is the star of Bethlehem, is that a being
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that shows up in that moment? That's not the
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question, so you don't have to answer that one.
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And what I love about it is like already within
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asking the question, there's like five more questions.
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100%. Which is what we love. Yes. And some of
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them we'll get to tonight. Sweet. Yeah. But I
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was like thinking about that because we've talked
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a little bit about mountains. Yes. But we haven't
21:21
talked a ton about stars. And they're associated
21:24
together often. They are. Yeah. Yeah, so. Maybe
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the mountains are the suns of the stars. Because
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the stars are celestial, and then the mountains
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are dust. Are earthly. Yeah. Well, so I think
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it's important to say this at the forefront,
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because we've talked about this, we've said this
21:45
many times, and I think it bears repeating. Over
21:48
and over which is like people in the ancient
21:50
world didn't just make stuff up one day, right?
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They weren't just like hmm. You know be kind
21:54
of cool if those stars up there were things yeah
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and even like when I when I look it up or maybe
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if you look it up or anyone else looks it up,
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it's like, well, people in the ancient Near East,
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they viewed anything that moved as alive. And
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so when they looked at the stars like, oh, they
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move, they must be living things. And it's like,
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no one did that. Right. Like maybe like two people
22:16
did. And I think that's the other thing that's
22:18
important as well as we can't create this huge
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distinction between how we think and operate
22:24
to how they thought and operated. Right. And
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what I mean by that is like their worldview was
22:29
different than ours Yeah, there are cultural
22:31
and just perceptive differences. Yes, but for
22:35
the most part It's like people still today argue
22:37
if the earth is flat for sure and other people
22:39
like no, it's round and it's like yeah They had
22:41
debates like that about stuff, too Yeah, and
22:43
I'm sure there are people and looked at the stars.
22:45
There were people that went. Yeah. No, so they're
22:48
They're actually just like beings up there. No,
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I think they're just like things. Yeah And then
22:54
there's probably some like, hey guys, there's
22:55
nuance here, which is us. True. Yeah. But also
22:59
sometimes the stars talk to you and that can
23:04
get tricky. It can get very tricky. Right? Yeah.
23:07
But that, I mean, and I think we've talked about
23:10
this before because the, I think, I don't know
23:14
when I mentioned it, but I feel like I just mentioned
23:16
this idea that like, if you look at the biblical
23:20
account, the smartest humans have ever been,
23:23
was in the garden. But they were in the garden
23:28
of Eden. So Eden is the place. The garden in
23:31
Eden. And there's a garden there. I like to think
23:37
of the garden as the intersection. Because if...
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if heaven is the throne of God and the earth
23:47
is his footstool, using Psalmist language, then
23:51
the garden would be the place where heaven and
23:55
earth meet. And in a king's palace, the garden
23:59
was the place where you walked around and you
24:02
talked about your day. That's actually what you
24:05
did. And that was also where later on, Greek
24:11
thought and modern philosophy all happened in
24:15
the garden. Yes. They happened underneath trees
24:18
and gardens. Yes. Because only people that were
24:22
wealthy could sit around and talk about what
24:25
was going on. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, and that's
24:28
where, especially when we look at like fountains
24:31
or waterfalls and trees and gardens, like those
24:34
were all viewed as divine things. Right. They
24:37
were like same with mountains, like mountains.
24:39
That's where we get pyramids and ziggurats. It's
24:41
like it was a it's a manmade mountain. Yeah.
24:43
That's what it was. Pretty simple. I mean, this
24:45
is way off topic. Not way off topic, but it is
24:48
slightly a bit of a tangent. It's adjacent. It's
24:50
adjacent. We've talked about Babel a lot. Yes.
24:53
And it's like, yeah, that whole thing. Actually,
24:55
I just found this out or just learned this. It's
24:58
like when you look at Babel, that's where we
25:00
get Babylon comes from Babel. Right. And the
25:04
idea is it's the gate of the gods. So it's like,
25:06
and it's not that. But it's and so that's what
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the Tower of Babel was a representative of now
25:12
It's like hey, we can build one tall enough to
25:14
get all the way up there But it's like no This
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is the gateway by which you can enter into the
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God the heavens or they can come down and enter
25:21
into ours Yes into our world. Yeah, which which
25:24
harkens back I'd never use that word. But for
25:28
some reason it makes it feels appropriate angels,
25:31
but that harkens back to The language is just
25:38
there. But it harkens back to the garden, when
25:47
they're kicked out of the garden and the gates
25:48
close. And so these mountains or these ziggurats
25:53
being gateways, it's almost like, really what
25:57
the attempt is, is to open the gates back up
26:00
of the Garden of Eden to get back to heaven.
26:03
So that's, yeah. Yeah, that's that's the idea
26:07
there. Yeah, um, but so it isn't I think it's
26:09
important Right now i'd even talk about like
26:11
ancient cosmology. It's like, okay. What is well,
26:14
let me finish this thought No Well, just just
26:19
the idea that like the assumption that people
26:22
That we are now the smartest we've ever been.
26:24
Yeah, but biblically that's not true, right?
26:27
um and And we also we also know that there was
26:32
knowledge given by god to people like Noah, who
26:37
built the best possible boat, that we still today
26:44
build freight liners out of those measurements.
26:47
Because that type, those particular measurements
26:51
and aspect ratios, it doesn't tip. Like it's
26:56
almost impossible to make it tip. And so that's
27:00
knowledge given from God to man. That's a clear
27:03
example of that. And we've talked about like
27:06
potentially, we haven't really gotten into this,
27:09
but that's a clear example of knowledge given
27:12
to man from Yahweh that was uncorruptible knowledge
27:17
that was of benefit to humanity. what we have
27:24
talked about is that - We're talking about knowledge
27:26
bringers and the myths of knowledge bringers.
27:28
Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that basically everything
27:31
that is truth probably has a counterpart deception.
27:35
Yes. So if God gives knowledge of the perfect
27:39
abode, then don't you think that there's other
27:43
spiritual beings giving knowledge of other things?
27:46
Yes. So that's a different episode. It is. But
27:49
the reason I say that is because Noah built the
27:53
perfect boat. So, not dumber than us. Yes. Right?
27:57
Right. Because we're taking his information.
28:00
We're still using what he had. Yeah. So, again,
28:04
people didn't used to be dumber than us. Right.
28:07
It's not like the gate shut at the garden and
28:09
everyone, uh? I don't know. Heads? What thing?
28:16
Feet? Feet? Someone is just playing with rocks.
28:21
Oh, spark! Oh, what spark? I don't know why we
28:26
made it like kind of French. This is like caveman.
28:27
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. We can always
28:31
beat up on the French. It's true. But yeah, so
28:35
I just wanted to throw that out there just because
28:37
of exactly what you're saying. It's like, it's
28:39
not like people back in the day were looking
28:41
at me like, oh, the stars are moving. Those must
28:43
be people. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it doesn't know man
28:47
up top Yeah moon made of cheese Yum -yum Which
28:55
is true If you believe in that kind of cheese
29:03
they're not there I saw in a cartoon once exclamation
29:07
walson grommet I love it. I love it. Um, but
29:10
yeah, but so I say all that to you. It's To say
29:14
this like two things can be true at the same
29:16
time sure which like yeah, they're not morons.
29:19
Yeah. Yeah, but at the same time They don't have
29:21
the same Technological knowledge or scientific
29:24
knowledge that we have today. That's well, there
29:27
are things that we have that they didn't have
29:30
Yeah, I mean we don't know what they had though.
29:33
It's true. No, that's true But I guess when we
29:36
look at like, okay, so what we do know and like
29:37
the ancient Near East sure It's like, okay, how
29:40
did they view the world? It's like, okay, well,
29:42
they had, and not to say that this view is wrong,
29:45
because the other thing that makes it complicated
29:46
is they also have, they're also layering supernatural
29:51
to natural. Where for us, we're looking at just
29:54
natural. So that's where it can get complicated.
29:58
So it's like, okay, things they believed might
30:00
actually be true if you layer in supernatural
30:03
to it. But from a purely natural standpoint,
30:05
you're like, yeah, that's not really it. And
30:08
the important thing with that, because this is
30:10
where it can get tricky. Which is why a lot of
30:11
times we just throw everything out that's old.
30:13
Yeah, because we're like, ah, they didn't get
30:15
it. Yeah, or we do something even worse and we
30:18
take the story and then we just cut out all the
30:22
stuff that's non -natural. Yeah. And then you
30:25
end up with a skeleton of an idea. Yeah. And
30:28
then you end up with people used to be dumber
30:29
than us. Right. It's like, well. No, you're just
30:32
cutting out all of the important stuff. Yeah,
30:34
and what they're telling, how they're explaining
30:36
to you, you're just like, nah, that's not it.
30:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reason why I would
30:40
push back on technology would be because we don't
30:44
know what type of technology that they had, and
30:46
they potentially had way better technology than
30:51
what we currently have, but they definitely didn't
30:54
have the technology we have. Potentially, yeah.
30:56
And there are some things that we know that we've
30:59
discovered that we have no record of them having
31:02
an understanding of. And I say that because they
31:05
may have and they just never wrote it down. Weird
31:09
side note thing that is just a fun thing that
31:13
I think. Please. I think that the technology
31:17
that ancient people had was more true and in
31:23
harmony with the natural world. I think that
31:28
their technologies functioned better in the world
31:32
we live in. I do wanna do an episode about that.
31:36
I've been messing with that idea for a long time.
31:40
But I think that our technologies are abrasive
31:45
to Earth. That they are in conflict with Earth.
31:49
And that we are actually like, digging into earth
31:54
instead of working with it. Yeah, and we see
31:57
the effects of that, honestly. We do, yeah. So
32:00
that's like a side tangent of kind of how I think
32:03
about it is, I think that they had greater technology
32:06
because they were working, it seems like they
32:09
were working in relationship with the harmony
32:11
of the way that the earth works, which that sounds
32:15
like new age or whatever, but it's actually very
32:19
biblical as far as like, you're working with
32:22
what is there and you're stewarding with what's
32:25
there. And so knowing about how it works, instead
32:29
of going, instead of looking at something and
32:31
going, this work like this. Like that, in a lot
32:35
of ways, that's what we do, which makes us dumber.
32:40
So that's side tangent done. And there's a lot
32:43
of layers in there that we can't go into right
32:45
now. Yeah, so basically, so. So angels. Well,
32:51
I say all that to say this, where it's like from
32:54
a modern scientific perspective, when we read
32:58
the Bible, other ancient texts, we'll be like,
33:01
oh, well, that doesn't make sense, or that doesn't
33:04
line up with this or that that we know today.
33:06
Not saying one's right, one's wrong. It's just
33:08
like, yeah, things don't line up with how we
33:10
see the world today. And I think what's important
33:14
with that is that, This guy goes into inspiration
33:19
a little bit. Okay. It's like yeah God doesn't
33:21
like Download stuff into people's brains and
33:24
be like hey, by the way, this isn't gonna line
33:26
up with scientific research in you know, 5 ,000
33:29
years So right. I'm just gonna give you some
33:33
stuff that you don't know about Yeah, and you're
33:34
just gonna write it down and just have to trust
33:36
me on that bro. Yeah It's like no, he doesn't
33:38
do that. Right. It's like he works with what
33:40
the knowledge people have at the time true and
33:44
Like they write from what they know And God uses
33:48
that and he can use it, which is I think another
33:50
thing why it's so powerful with scripture, everything
33:53
we can get from that, from the limitation of
33:56
the people's knowledge of the time. So it's impressive.
34:00
It is, yeah. But so, all that to say, ancient
34:03
cosmology. Yeah, ancient cosmology. Because this
34:06
is present in scripture, this view, and it's
34:10
also, this is what all ancient Near East cultures
34:13
believed, or how they viewed. The world okay,
34:17
so it's a three -tiered model, okay, so there's
34:19
the heaven above got the earth Which is in the
34:22
middle, and then you have the under roller shield
34:24
which is below okay? It's like that's that was
34:26
kind of their view yeah And so that was a pretty
34:29
common standard view yeah So yes, they looked
34:34
at well actually I'll get into that but so okay.
34:37
We'll add that let's put a pin in there I'm gonna
34:39
jump to a scripture now. Okay. Yeah, I have to
34:42
say that and then yeah, we'll be here, okay?
34:45
Acts 7, 42 -43. So are you familiar with Acts
34:50
7? I'm familiar with the book of Acts. I have
34:55
no idea what you're about to say. Okay, so Acts
34:57
7, there's a very special guy who does a little
35:00
talk during this, right before he gets stoned.
35:03
It's good old Stephen. So this is actually during
35:06
his kind of monologue where he's preaching the
35:10
gospel. starting from the beginning to now, to
35:13
then, right before he gets killed. And so in
35:18
that, there's a piece in here that I think is
35:20
really important for our conversation today.
35:23
And it says this, starting in verse 42, but God
35:26
turned away and gave them over to worship the
35:29
host of heaven. As it is written in the book
35:32
of the prophets, Did you bring to me slain beasts
35:36
and sacrifices during the 40 years in the wilderness,
35:38
O house of Israel? You took up the tent of Moloch
35:42
and the star of your God, Rafan, the images that
35:46
you made to worship, and I will send you into
35:49
exile beyond Babylon." So there's a really interesting
35:53
thing that he says here, which, you took up the
35:57
tent of Moloch and the star of your God. It's
36:01
like, wait. Why does this guy have a star? Yeah,
36:06
or is his got a star, huh? It's like well That's
36:09
actually interesting how you look at the possessiveness
36:11
of the language there, right? Cuz your God The
36:15
star of your God. So it's like the star of your
36:17
God star belong to him or is he the star? Well,
36:22
it's or is it a symbol of him. It sounds like
36:25
it's the worship of the star representative of
36:28
their God Yeah, so Possibly. Okay. Well, so But
36:35
he also says he prefaces it with this is a quote
36:38
from the book of the prophets, okay, so it's
36:41
like oh Which prophet is he quoting? You're not
36:44
gonna believe this I Give you one guess The famous
36:54
Amos and you're not gonna believe this even more.
36:59
The most famous Amos. It's chapter five. No.
37:03
Don't do it to me, Paul. I have to do it. And
37:06
this early in. It's Amos time. It's Amos time.
37:10
We need a jingle for that. I need a clock for
37:11
that. It's Amos time. No, no, I do the jingle.
37:20
You're adding the music. I can't help it. It's
37:25
Amos time. I like that a lot actually. Let's
37:27
remember that. Thanks. I won't. I won't either.
37:31
Perfect. I have to clip it. So Amos chapter five.
37:34
Chapter five. Clip it. Verse 25 through 27. Okay.
37:39
And it says, which means the quotes, it says
37:42
pretty interesting. Did you bring me sacrifices
37:46
and offerings during the 40 years in the wilderness,
37:49
O house of Israel? You shall take up Sekuth,
37:52
your king, and Kian, your star god, your images
37:56
that you made yourselves, and I will send you
37:59
into exile beyond Damascus, says the Lord, whose
38:02
name is the God of hosts. So he says, and your
38:05
star god. So it's like, wait, so is he a star?
38:09
But he names the god. He does. And so. What's
38:12
interesting there is like, wait, but we also
38:13
have, it's a quote, but we have very different
38:16
names. So what's going on there? I don't know.
38:20
So that's where we fall into the fun Greek versus
38:23
Hebrew. I love it. And so, actually, this is
38:28
a fun aside. Oh, that makes sense. So Stephen
38:31
would have been speaking in Greek, or at least
38:34
it would have been, acts would have been written
38:35
down by Luke in Greek. Yes. Whereas Amos would
38:41
have been a Hebrew prophet speaking in Hebrew.
38:43
So they probably would have been pulling from
38:44
the Septuagint even Oh I'm quoting the Septuagint
38:48
sure. Yeah, actually good point. Yeah, so is
38:51
Amos using a Greek the Greek name So Amos would
38:54
be talking about the Hebrew Right, but it would
38:57
have been translated into into Greek by the time
39:00
that and the names would be rendered over Yeah,
39:02
yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Isn't that interesting?
39:05
Yeah, so it would have been changed before Stephen
39:06
even said it. Yeah. Yeah Because we've talked
39:10
about that before where like you would go from
39:12
one region to the next so yes, so gods of Egypt
39:16
or gods of of The Hebrews or Mesopotamia is probably
39:21
more likely in the realm of that space Or the
39:25
Assyrians and the Babylonians and all of that
39:28
stuff there When when that gets translated into
39:33
Greek, it's the same God different name. Yes.
39:36
Yeah. Yes Exactly. So like the idea that like
39:39
the pantheon of gods in Greek, in the Greek thought
39:45
or the Roman thought was a renaming of previous
39:49
gods coming from different regions. Which is,
39:53
that's the other thing that's interesting about
39:54
that because when you compare other cultures
39:57
and their their pantheon. Yeah. Because they
40:00
all had a pantheon. Right. And all their gods
40:02
were very equivalent to each other. Sure. So
40:05
it's like you always had the Zeus character.
40:06
You always had like the Cronos character. You
40:08
always had, you know, so on and so forth. The
40:10
Ishtar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or Venus would be the
40:13
Roman. And it's like, yeah, you have these across
40:15
all of these cultures. Sure. It's not like Greek
40:19
and Romans are like, oh, Romans are like, I like
40:21
that, let's just take that. No, actually, everyone
40:23
had this. The Egyptians had it. The Babylonians
40:25
had it. It's like the Assyrians had it. It's
40:27
like everyone had the same ideas. You see that
40:31
over in India, same kind of process. It's fascinating.
40:36
That's where it goes back to the knowledge bringer
40:37
ideas. It's like, well, they're all hearing from
40:39
the same group of people. I say people, but.
40:44
Like when you go back, like Zeus before he is
40:48
Zeus, is Jupiter, right? Yes. So it's like some
40:54
of, but then even in Greek thought you get, even
40:57
in Greek thought you get like Venus and you get
41:00
some of that stuff. And we go like, all right,
41:02
well, where did the name of the planets come
41:04
from? Or where did the name of the stars or the
41:06
constellations come from? It's like, well, did
41:09
we receive the name of those gods? or did we
41:13
name the gods and who named them first? And the
41:18
answer is we don't really know. And why does
41:21
it seem like the same gods have different names
41:22
across every culture? Yeah, but they almost all
41:27
go back to stars and planets. Yes. Maybe not
41:31
all of them exactly, but they almost all go back
41:33
to stars and planets. You're right in line, I
41:35
love it. It's so good. The one thing I did, I
41:38
want to take a brief aside real quick too. I
41:41
think it's a cool thing here where The name for
41:44
God is the God of hosts. And I think that's something
41:47
that we kind of overlook sometimes. What does
41:49
that actually mean? Or the Lord of hosts? Yeah.
41:53
Yeah. So the Hebrew there is Yahweh Elohi Sabaoth,
41:58
or Yahweh Sabaoth we see in a lot of different
42:00
areas. We see that in Isaiah 6 .3 where it says
42:03
the Seraphim cry, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord
42:07
of hosts. That's where we see Yahweh Sabaoth.
42:11
And so what's funny is Actually. Which again,
42:15
Echo Themes is cool. When I think of that, I
42:18
think of the Revelation throne room. Yes. But
42:21
it's an echo of Isaiah. Yeah. So it's like, these
42:24
guys were seeing the same throne room. Yes. Daniel.
42:27
And the same thing is happening. Isaiah. Yeah,
42:29
yeah, yeah. Which is cool. Yeah, it is. Yeah.
42:32
It's pretty cool. And what I love with that title,
42:36
because that's, so the equivalent title that
42:38
we, or that's the biblical title that we have.
42:41
Okay, yeah. But we see that across other books
42:43
as well, Enoch being one of them, which is one
42:46
of my favorites, Lord of Spirits. Lord of Spirits,
42:49
that's what it is. And it's actually equivalent
42:50
to Lord of Hosts. Yes. And what's important,
42:54
it's just more cool. More directly true. Yeah.
42:56
And what's cool about it is when the Seraphim
43:00
are singing, it's like that's their title for
43:02
God. Yeah. It's their way of saying like, no,
43:04
he's our God too. Yes. And it's like, that's
43:06
actually really cool. Yes. Yeah, because... Yeah,
43:10
and then are you gonna get into a definition
43:12
of hosts? I wasn't gonna jump too far down there,
43:15
but we definitely can. Okay, we don't have to.
43:17
Yeah, let's do it. Well, I just mean, because
43:20
it would make sense to go along with what you
43:23
just said, like the seraphim, call them the Lord
43:25
of hosts, because they are part of the hosts.
43:29
Yes. We join the hosts. Yeah. So humanity joins
43:33
the hosts of heaven. Yeah. And the hosts of heaven
43:37
is not... I think I used to think of the host
43:42
of heaven, like when you walk into a restaurant
43:45
and there's a host there that seats you. But
43:48
here's the thing, that is what they're talking
43:53
about because the host that greets you, it doesn't
43:58
own the restaurant. So like they're not, but
44:02
for some reason in my mind I always thought of
44:04
like, oh yeah, it's the owner of the restaurant
44:05
greeting you and they're hosting this party,
44:08
right? And I'm thinking in that manner. But no,
44:12
that host or hostess, they're part of a host
44:18
of people who are. They are creating. The ones
44:23
that bring you in. Yeah, they're also like the
44:27
servers are part of the hosts, like in a restaurant.
44:31
The chefs and the cooks, the bartenders, they're
44:34
all part of the hosts of the restaurant. They're
44:37
hosting the experience. That's right. So they
44:39
are the workers of the restaurant. So then the
44:42
workers of the heavens are the heavenly hosts.
44:45
That's right. which are the workers of heaven,
44:48
not the owner. That's right, they're the servants,
44:50
not the sovereigns. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
44:52
that's actually a huge, very important distinction.
44:55
Which is cool, because that doesn't include us.
44:57
Right. Yeah. We're not the hosts of heaven. That's
45:00
what's so important about that. Yeah, it's actually
45:02
not about us. No, it's not. It never has been.
45:05
No, but we love making it about us. I know. That's
45:08
because we want to be God. It's the original
45:11
sin. It's the same thing. Yeah. Actually, I love
45:12
that you said that, because that actually will
45:14
tie in really well. Perfect. um which I love
45:16
that it always it always works out um but so
45:20
to take a step back a little bit because I me
45:22
being me it's like I like to look at okay well
45:24
how does scripture talk about stars sure as a
45:28
whole yeah it's like okay do we see uh and we
45:31
did it with revelation it's like and we've done
45:32
with other things like does it say does it use
45:34
this one phrase only symbolically or does it
45:38
use it a mixture of ways or only literally like
45:40
but let's use that to help translate what it's
45:43
trying to say here yes So scripture actually
45:46
uses it in a very layered way that we see both
45:48
physical and spiritual ways Okay, or symbolic
45:51
ways of using the word stars. Okay, so looking
45:54
at the whole of scripture Yeah, yeah, and I mean
45:56
the first place we see it is in Genesis 1 right?
46:00
Actually, can you pull that up? I can It's Genesis
46:03
1 14 through 18 There's a lot of language in
46:06
there that I think is very interesting That we
46:10
won't fully get into but I want to talk I want
46:12
it to be said anyway So it says, starting in
46:17
verse 14, And God set them in the expanse of
46:46
the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule
46:48
over the day and over the night, and to separate
46:51
the light from the darkness. And God saw that
46:54
it was good." So there's an interesting word
46:58
there that's used, which is there to rule over
47:01
the night and the day. So it's like, okay, but
47:05
what were they created for? It's like, well,
47:07
they were created for... Signs and seasons and
47:09
days and years. Yes, it's like, okay. Well, they
47:11
have a purpose. Yeah, that's part of why God
47:14
called it good He's like, okay everything I just
47:17
did here. It's useful and it serves a purpose.
47:19
Yes And we see that so that's in Genesis. So
47:22
it's it's talking about them as objects, right?
47:25
It doesn't say like hey and I created a bunch
47:27
of angels up there Yeah to go and you know, give
47:30
you some signs and wonders like nice like I created
47:33
stuff Yeah. Yeah. But then we see... I created
47:37
what you see. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But then we jumped
47:40
to like Job 38. Oh boy. Do you want me to pull
47:44
that up? Let's pull it up. We should actually
47:46
just pull it up. The classic passage. Job 38.
47:51
Which I'm surprised we actually can't quote it
47:52
at this point. Which if you did or did not know...
47:58
It's like making me do stuff. If you did not
48:02
know this... Job 38 was written before Genesis.
48:08
Yes. Yeah, that's true. Oopsies. Here you find
48:14
it. Okay, it's 38 -7. Like if the Bible was laid
48:18
out chronologically as far as when the books
48:21
or the stories were originated, the story of
48:25
Job is actually the first or the oldest known
48:31
story. that exists in the canon. Which is why
48:36
it kind of stands out. In the beginning it places
48:39
him in Ooze. Which is Mesopotamia. Yeah. It's
48:45
where Abram comes from. Yes. It's pretty old.
48:50
Yeah. Pretty old. Well, and he just lives there.
48:54
He's not trying to get out of there. Yeah, that's
48:55
just where his life is. All his friends are from
48:57
there. But it does... We need to do an episode
49:01
on that. Very fun. Because that is an interesting
49:04
idea that, like my thought is, if Abraham lives
49:11
in a polytheist society, many gods being worshiped,
49:18
how did he find Yahweh? Or how did Yahweh find
49:20
him? But if Job is living in us, and he's communicating
49:26
with Yahweh, then Yahweh isn't, is interacting
49:32
with humanity. Because that's something that
49:35
we've we alluded to in the past. Yeah. Is that
49:38
idea that people are like there's corruption
49:43
that's coming from like people getting further
49:46
and further from the Lord and worshiping these
49:48
other gods. Yeah. So it's like they already had
49:51
all the right information. Right. And it's been
49:53
corrupted and changed and people are falling
49:54
away. Yeah. And then that's like the response
49:57
is Yahweh says, hey, let me call you out. and
50:00
let's do this right. And that's where we see
50:03
the writing of scripture, where it's a response
50:05
to like, no, no, no, you had it right, and now
50:08
you messed it up, and let me give you the real
50:10
information. But also the misunderstanding of
50:13
where there are and where there aren't gaps.
50:17
Because I think sometimes we go from Adam and
50:21
Eve into Seth, and then we go no one until Enoch.
50:25
And then after Enoch, no one until Noah. But
50:31
Job is somewhere in there. Yeah, like and we
50:34
know that because of It's just one of those things
50:38
where you kind of go through and you're like,
50:40
okay I don't I don't think that God just like
50:44
wasn't showing up on the scene, right? And that's
50:47
where we have evidence of things like Job. Yeah
50:50
now is job pre -flood You don't know we can find
50:55
out Can we? That would be a fun question. That
50:58
would actually be a lot of fun. Maybe that's
50:59
the episode question. That could be really good.
51:04
Write that down for us. But no, I think that's
51:05
the important thing, too, where on one hand,
51:08
it's like we look at life today. It's like, well,
51:11
God, we know God's still moving. We live through
51:13
it daily. Right. But it's like when we look at
51:15
the past, like, he's still moving. He's still
51:17
doing things. He's still talking to people. Yeah.
51:20
I mean, that's what we see with Elijah. When
51:22
he flees after... after killing a lot of bail
51:27
prophets. And then Jezebel's like, I'm gonna
51:31
kill you. And he's like, all right, I'm outta
51:32
here. And then God calls him out and he's like,
51:34
hey, look, I'm the only one. If you don't have
51:38
me, you don't have anybody. And I would rather
51:40
you have somebody than no one. And he's like,
51:43
are you serious? He's like, I have a lot of people,
51:45
actually. And it's that same thing with Elijah
51:48
thinks, hey, I'm the only one here that loves
51:51
you. And God's like, no, I've been doing stuff.
51:54
and I just didn't tell you about it. I didn't
51:56
need to tell you about it. Well, and one of the
51:58
examples that I think of in that concept of we
52:03
assume that there's dark periods or quiet periods
52:07
is things like, does anybody before Acts 2 have
52:14
the Holy Spirit within them? And the answer is
52:20
yes, because the disciples did. Yeah, Jesus is
52:25
explicit about that as they go out and and then
52:29
you kind of go like, all right, what is that
52:31
explicit throughout the Old Testament? And you
52:34
go, well, they're not not exactly in the same
52:36
language, not explicitly, but but it's like it's
52:41
pretty obvious in certain moments. I think there
52:43
are arguments that like the prophets would have
52:45
had at least had times where they were filled
52:47
with the spirit. Yes. And we do still see evidences
52:50
of the spirit or the spirit coming upon them.
52:52
Yeah. Yeah, at least in a communicative way,
52:58
or maybe they talked to angels. It's kind of
53:04
fun. So Job 38. Verse seven is the one I want
53:08
to highlight, but I'm going to start in verse
53:09
four. This is God kind of calling Job out after
53:13
his whining. Job the whiner. Job the whiner.
53:18
God says where were you when I laid the foundation
53:21
of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding
53:23
who determined its measurements Surely, you know
53:26
or who stretched the line upon it on What were
53:30
its bases sunk or who laid its cornerstone? When
53:34
the morning stars sang together and all the sons
53:37
of God shouted for joy. Yeah So we see here,
53:40
it's like, all right, this is clearly, he's not
53:41
talking about like, and where were you when the
53:44
giant balls of gas were singing? It's like, that's
53:47
not what he's saying. So he's using the language
53:50
of stars to refer to an actual being. Well, and
53:54
there is an argument, and again, this is an episode
53:57
we haven't done yet, we just alluded to, but
54:00
there is an argument that the sons of God are
54:03
children of Israel. And you have one more verse
54:07
actually. But even in English though, verse seven,
54:10
Job 38, verse seven, in English, when the morning
54:15
stars, plural, sing together. Oh, so it's not
54:19
just one morning star. Well, wait a minute, isn't
54:22
Jesus the bright and morning star? Well, he's
54:26
the bright and morning star, but there are morning
54:28
stars, multiple, who sing together. Now is that
54:34
just? poetic imagery? Yes and. Right. Right?
54:40
Exactly. And in the context, it's like, when
54:44
the morning stars sang together and all the sons
54:47
of God shouted for joy, it's easy to separate
54:51
those two things, but is it just a larger description
54:55
of the same thing? Right. That the morning stars
54:58
who sang together are the sons of God who shouted
55:01
for joy. Do you know what I mean? I do, yeah.
55:04
So there's a larger thing going on here than
55:08
just, oh, and the beautiful stars in the sky
55:12
were twinkling at the creation of all things.
55:16
It's like, no. No, they were witnesses, which
55:19
is really critical. Yes. Just using the word
55:23
witnesses, like everything that God does has
55:27
a witness. Yes. And we see that all the way through
55:32
everything in the Bible. There's always a witness.
55:36
Yes. It's God is creating witnesses for his creation.
55:40
Yeah. So the stars are witnessing the creation
55:44
and their response is to praise him. Yes. Where
55:48
do we see that? The seraphim. That's right. Right.
55:51
That's right. So then this doesn't say, where
55:55
were you and the seraphim sang together? Right.
55:58
But it does say that Well, even we look at the
56:01
description of what these what they look like.
56:04
It's like well, they're on fire Yes, it's like
56:07
okay. Well, you can take that right there. Yeah.
56:09
Oh exactly Yeah, I mean the descriptions particularly
56:12
Ezekiel. Yes lay all of that out. It's like yeah,
56:15
they are actually Like you're describing a planet
56:21
Mayhaps Mayhaps. You used Harkin. Fair enough.
56:32
Got me there. Even though I don't think mayhaps
56:34
is a real word. It's not. It's two words together.
56:35
I just love saying it. Perhaps. Perhaps is actually
56:39
quite beautiful. Maybe and perhaps. Yeah. Perhaps,
56:42
ideally. Mayhaps. Mayhaps. It's like the ecosphere.
56:45
Welcome. I feel like we should change that in
56:47
our bio. Welcome to the ecosphere. Let them do
56:50
it. You guys do it. Hack into our system. Please
56:56
don't. So all of that being said, to kind of
57:01
what we've built up to this point, I love throwing
57:03
in Deuteronomy 419 here, which I'm sure you're
57:06
familiar with. And it says, and beware lest you
57:09
raise your eyes to heaven. And when you see the
57:12
sun and the moon and the stars, all the host
57:14
of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to
57:18
them and serve them, things that the Lord your
57:20
God has allotted to all the peoples under the
57:23
whole heaven. So there's a lot of really interesting
57:27
language inside of there. Yes. But I love that
57:30
it's saying when you see the sun and the moon
57:32
and the stars, all the host of heaven. Right.
57:35
It was like, wait, but who is he talking about?
57:37
Right. is he talking about the sun moon and stars
57:39
because then he prefaces with you know all the
57:41
host of heaven right well wait who's the host
57:44
of heaven right well if we if we don't you know
57:48
it's like yeah if we if that's where it's like
57:50
this is kind of layered because it's like well
57:52
if we go back to even in um isaiah when the seraphim
57:57
are calling him the lord of hosts yes it's like
58:00
well he's calling him the lord of them yes that's
58:03
what they're saying so if he's saying all the
58:05
hosts of heaven it's like well they're the host
58:07
of heaven but also the physical sun, moon, and
58:11
stars are part of the hosts of heaven. Exactly.
58:15
And so it's like, wait, so there's actually potentially
58:18
a lot going on here, but the warning there is
58:20
don't look at those things and miss what they're
58:24
actually supposed to do, which is to serve the
58:26
Lord and be for signs and wonders to point toward
58:29
him. You look at them and say, I'm just gonna
58:31
go ahead and worship those signs. Going to like
58:40
bringing that back to the beginning of the conversation
58:42
to where we were saying people used to be dumber
58:45
than us now Yeah, every ancient culture. What
58:48
did they do? They they built everything around
58:54
the orientation of the stars and The seasons
58:58
yes, so they quite literally took these the seasons
59:04
that were represented by where the stars were
59:08
in the sky, and they built their city centers
59:12
and their temples of worship to face those. They're
59:16
literally, even in Ohio, there are amphitheaters
59:22
built out, like built into the earth that when
59:27
you sit in them and you face the direction that
59:30
the amphitheater is facing, You're witnessing
59:35
the rising of the Sun in a particular season.
59:37
Yes, which is Mind -blowing. Yeah, I mean we
59:41
see that with the classic ones are like the ziggurats.
59:44
Yeah in Like South America, right where it's
59:47
like yeah at the equinoxes It creates the serpent
59:50
like thing going up through shadows going up
59:54
into the top of the temple. Yeah And it's like,
59:57
well, yeah, that's actually part of their worship.
59:59
It's very intentional. Well, and a lot of it
1:00:02
is serpentine. Yes. And you go into like, oh,
1:00:05
well, that's like, even if you have been listening
1:00:08
here or elsewhere and you go, oh, they're all
1:00:12
worshiping the devil, the ancient serpent. It's
1:00:15
like, well, yes, maybe, but also what about seraphim?
1:00:21
Yeah. What about cherubim? What about these other
1:00:26
Hosts of heaven. Yeah that are serpent like mm
1:00:30
-hmm What if it wasn't? the ancient serpent The
1:00:36
devil that they were worshiping yeah, but these
1:00:39
other hosts of heaven yeah, I Mean, I mean yeah,
1:00:44
actually I won't say that cuz I I can't back
1:00:46
it up fully, off the top of my head. But there's
1:00:49
some wild stuff inside of it, even when you look
1:00:50
at just the actual Hebrew language for some of
1:00:53
these, and how it describes these things. I'll
1:00:55
just say it. I can't think of the reference,
1:00:59
but when it talks about the seraphim, we talk
1:01:01
about these serpent -like things. The actual
1:01:03
word is just snake. It's like, wait, what? Yeah,
1:01:11
but we're just like, it's seraphim. Like, yeah,
1:01:13
that word is snake. Yeah, we need to get into
1:01:16
that on the next. We'll talk about that another
1:01:17
time. Because that is a big topic. Yeah. But
1:01:20
that simple idea of going like, well, OK, so
1:01:25
the Bible is saying, don't worship the hosts
1:01:28
of heaven. Yes. And you go, all right, but I'm
1:01:34
not doing that. OK, but look at every ancient
1:01:37
culture and everything that they left behind.
1:01:39
And guess who did? They did. They sure did. and
1:01:42
we have evidence of it everywhere. And so you
1:01:46
look at all of that and you're like, all right,
1:01:47
well, they're worshiping, and we've talked about
1:01:49
before, it's like they're worshiping the stars
1:01:50
themselves. And you're like, okay, don't do that.
1:01:56
Worship the one who created the stars, which
1:01:58
is basically what the whole Bible is saying.
1:02:01
You have stars as signs to you, but those signs
1:02:06
are pointing to the sign maker. Yes. They're
1:02:10
the hosts that point toward the one who created
1:02:12
the experience. The Lord of hosts. Yes. Yes.
1:02:16
You're stopping at the hosts. Yes. And the Bible
1:02:19
is saying, no, there's a Lord of the hosts. He
1:02:21
didn't even sit down for the meal yet. He's like,
1:02:25
I've seen all I need to see. Right. But that
1:02:28
is interesting because what do we, we consistently
1:02:32
see the worship of stars. Yeah. Well, and the
1:02:35
other thing is It's funny that we can point to
1:02:37
them and be like, look how stupid they were,
1:02:39
they worship stars. It's like, yeah, we do that
1:02:41
today. There's a lot of modern people that worship
1:02:44
stars. Yeah, and it's increasing. And even we
1:02:47
do it kind of in a fun way sometimes. Like somebody's
1:02:50
like, oh, I don't get serious about it. It's
1:02:51
just kind of a fun thing to do. It's like, yeah,
1:02:53
you're looking to them for your fate. It's like,
1:02:57
that's what they did. And that's what God says,
1:03:00
don't do that. Yeah, exactly. And it's a simple
1:03:03
thing, but it's a stopping point. It's going
1:03:06
to, because it's knowledge. And the knowledge.
1:03:11
that we get from it. The knowledge that we get
1:03:16
from it is just simply the fact that if we look
1:03:19
at our horoscopes, if we look at the orientation
1:03:22
of the skies when we were born, and the year
1:03:24
we were born, and the month we were born in,
1:03:26
we look at all of those things, what do we receive
1:03:29
from that? We receive knowledge. And the knowledge
1:03:31
itself, is it helpful? It can be. It can actually
1:03:35
tell us, oh, I'm not crazy, because I feel this
1:03:39
way. and the alignment of the stars is a witness
1:03:44
to how I feel. And it's like, that's not untrue.
1:03:50
That's the thing that I think Christians have
1:03:52
a hard time with. Which I would love to dive
1:03:54
into this specifically. But you look at astrological
1:03:58
signs and you're like, these people are crazy,
1:04:00
these people are dumb. Why would you do that?
1:04:04
Because it is true. People don't do... don't
1:04:08
do something because they don't get anything
1:04:09
from it. And I think that's the thing when we
1:04:11
look at ancient cultures, it's like, well, they
1:04:14
worshiped the stars and the planets because they
1:04:17
got something from it. If they didn't get them
1:04:20
anything, they wouldn't do it. Well, and that's
1:04:22
why like now, like New Age and astrology, it's
1:04:25
increasing. And that's because I feel like...
1:04:28
One of the biggest things is that the world is
1:04:31
moving away from the materialism and moving more
1:04:34
into a more spiritual worldview. We're kind of,
1:04:37
we're reincorporating because we've realized
1:04:38
we've missed a huge aspect. Yeah, so what's the
1:04:41
number one thing that's going to start increasing?
1:04:44
Anything that gives you knowledge. Yes. And then
1:04:47
the thing that gives us knowledge that's beyond
1:04:49
ourselves is the second heaven. It's the skies
1:04:55
above that are a witness to how we feel in the
1:04:58
moment. But we're using the stars to make the
1:05:02
universe about us. When the stars are a sign
1:05:07
of the one who created us in the first place.
1:05:11
And that's when we talked about corrupted knowledge.
1:05:13
It's like, that's what it is. Where we're corrupting,
1:05:16
we're shifting it. Actually, I'll even put a
1:05:18
pin in there and we'll get to that. Because we're
1:05:20
gonna jump right back into that conversation.
1:05:23
But I wanted to jump back to Axe. So we talked
1:05:26
about Rafan, which is the star of the god. And
1:05:32
maybe we should wrap this here with who these
1:05:35
people are. And then take it into the next episode.
1:05:38
Okay, yeah, yeah, I'll uh, actually I can say
1:05:41
this and put a nice little bow on it. Hopefully
1:05:42
we'll find out how quick that is And so that's
1:05:46
the that's the greek rendering from the hebrew
1:05:49
say it one more time kian. That's the hebrew
1:05:51
refan Refan is the I think that's how you say
1:05:54
it. Okay, i'm not greek Oh, I know. Um Hey, i'm
1:05:58
well aware It is interesting that it almost sounds
1:06:06
like refaim Oh, it kind of does. Which is Hebrew.
1:06:11
Yes. So this actually, both of those words referred
1:06:16
to the planet Saturn. Okay. And it's like, oh,
1:06:19
here's Saturn again. Both of those names? Yeah.
1:06:20
Gotcha. Because I mean, it's the same word or
1:06:23
same thing. Okay. Just two different words for
1:06:25
the same thing. Yeah. And so Saturn, the planet,
1:06:29
it was the farthest visible planet at the time
1:06:32
that you could see from the naked eye. It represented
1:06:35
the edge of the known world. the border between
1:06:38
the mortal and divine realms. So Saturn was both,
1:06:42
they viewed it as both the guardian and the gatekeeper.
1:06:46
So spiritually it represented the limit of human
1:06:48
knowledge beyond which only gods or angels could
1:06:51
go. So like, oh, so Saturn, it was considered
1:06:56
this, kind of like the judge, the final judge,
1:06:59
because it was that boundary between those two
1:07:04
things. And it was the gate. the portal between
1:07:06
those two worlds. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, so
1:07:09
if there was anything beyond that that could
1:07:11
come through, it had to go through Saturn. Yeah.
1:07:12
That was the view. That makes sense. And so here's
1:07:16
what's interesting. Yeah. I'm going to bring
1:07:17
back our old faithful boy. Not Amos this time.
1:07:22
OK. It's not Amos' time. Someone less Bible.
1:07:25
OK. Our good boy Enoch. OK, yeah. That would
1:07:29
be who I would go to next. Yeah. So this is 1
1:07:31
Enoch 16 .3. It says, You have been in heaven,
1:07:37
but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed
1:07:40
to you and you and you knew worthless ones and
1:07:44
and these in the hardness of your hearts you
1:07:48
have made known to women and Through these mysteries
1:07:51
women and men work much evil on earth. Hmm. And
1:07:55
so Basically we're seeing us like it kind of
1:07:58
sounds like the Garden of Eden. Yeah, it sounds
1:08:02
like that idea that when we see just in scripture,
1:08:05
it's like, that's the fall. It's like, hey, I've
1:08:07
got this thing that you're not supposed to have.
1:08:09
And I think what's an interesting piece with
1:08:11
that is God never says, hey, that tree is evil
1:08:15
and the information is evil, so don't do it.
1:08:18
He just says, no, it's not for you. And then
1:08:21
the serpent says, yeah, but what if you did it
1:08:24
anyway? You know what I mean? In a way, it's
1:08:26
like, that's the Saturn saying, hey, I'm holding
1:08:30
back this information so I could give it to you.
1:08:33
Yeah. If you want. Yeah. And so in ancient worlds
1:08:37
or ancient myths, they associated gods as using
1:08:41
planets as their thrones. OK. And so when they
1:08:45
say like they'd worship a planet, like they worship
1:08:46
Saturn, it's like, well, they're worshiping the
1:08:49
god who rules Saturn or who rules from Saturn
1:08:52
is the more appropriate way. So it's like Saturn
1:08:55
is his throne and he rules Earth from there.
1:08:58
Okay, which is what's fascinating is like, oh
1:09:01
again, they're just twisting what Yahweh has
1:09:03
done Yes, it's like Yahweh is sitting on the
1:09:05
throne in heaven and rules the earth or rules
1:09:07
everything and the earth is his footstool Yeah,
1:09:10
and they're saying, you know, we do that, but
1:09:12
we're doing it from these other planets That's
1:09:13
interesting that the that view that they had
1:09:17
was more intelligent than what we place upon
1:09:20
them Yes, and is more in line with the biblical
1:09:24
viewpoint Yes, it is. Which would make sense
1:09:26
because the Bible didn't come first. Right, yeah.
1:09:30
Like going back to that idea, the Bible is speaking
1:09:33
into a culture that already has their own myths
1:09:38
and beliefs and faiths. And so when it's speaking
1:09:41
into those things, it would make sense that those
1:09:44
other cultures and their viewpoints are reflective
1:09:48
and being commented on by the Bible itself. Yes.
1:09:52
So if the heavens are the throne, if the heavens
1:09:56
is the throne of God and the earth is his footstool,
1:10:00
then it would make sense that that's how the
1:10:03
ancient world viewed their gods. Correct. Yeah,
1:10:06
it just makes sense. Because, I mean, we talked
1:10:08
about this in the Knowledge Bringer Myth series,
1:10:11
or that episode. It's like, yeah, they brought
1:10:14
twisted information, twisted in their favor,
1:10:16
because they want Yahweh's glory for themselves.
1:10:19
And so why wouldn't they? It's like, hey, this
1:10:21
is what we know. Why don't we just do that for
1:10:24
us? And they did. And that's what the ancients
1:10:28
followed. So we look at it and it's like, oh,
1:10:30
these idiots. And it's like, oh no, actually
1:10:32
they're just doing what their gods told them
1:10:34
was real. And their gods stole that from Yahweh.
1:10:39
And we're no different today on top of that.
1:10:41
Well, and to be fair, knowing that about the
1:10:44
Bible, the Bible never... is never expressing
1:10:48
to other people, hey you dummies. It's actually
1:10:53
condemning the worship of others. It's more aggressive
1:10:56
than that. It's not saying you're all dumb. It's
1:11:03
the same type of thing as false is not fake.
1:11:08
So ignorance is not stupid. So ignorance in their
1:11:13
instances is that they don't know what they're
1:11:17
doing. Yes. It doesn't mean they don't know what
1:11:20
to do. Yes. So they know what to do, they're
1:11:24
just doing it the wrong way. To the wrong thing.
1:11:26
Yes. And that's where I heard someone say this
1:11:29
recently. I was like, this is really, really
1:11:32
good. Where it's like there are two of the worst
1:11:35
things that Yahweh outlines for us. These are
1:11:39
the two worst things you can do. One of them,
1:11:41
is idolatry. Sure. And the second one is sexual
1:11:44
morality. Yeah. And when you combine those two
1:11:46
things, it's actually the worst possible thing.
1:11:48
Yeah. And it's like, that's actually really true.
1:11:50
We see that in different points. That's why the
1:11:52
earth got flooded. Yes. You know, to say it simply,
1:11:55
because two of the worst sins you could commit
1:11:57
got combined. Yes. Into the ultimate worst sin.
1:11:59
Right. And with that, it's like, we see that
1:12:03
throughout scripture. He never says, hey, don't
1:12:06
worship idols because they're not real. He says,
1:12:09
don't worship idols because they're not worthy
1:12:10
of worship. I'm the only one who's worthy of
1:12:12
worship. And so, jumping this back to kind of
1:12:16
answer our question in like a maybe kind of way,
1:12:20
which is very appropriate for us. Well, real
1:12:22
quick, because it would not be, so if they were
1:12:27
worshiping idols that weren't real and there
1:12:30
wasn't a spirit inhabiting those idols that they
1:12:33
were worshiping, then they wouldn't be worshiping
1:12:35
other gods. It would be more so him just being
1:12:38
like, hey, there's more for you. Like slap on
1:12:43
the wrist, like, hey, there's more for you. Instead
1:12:46
he's going, no, this is gonna send you to hell.
1:12:52
I'm actually trying to save you because they
1:12:56
want to destroy you. This will corrupt you. Yes,
1:12:59
this will lead to death of death. This will not
1:13:03
lead to life of life. If you go this way, you
1:13:09
will be dead over and over again. Yeah. Well,
1:13:12
that's actually that's what I love the message
1:13:15
inside of the passage in Enoch that I read. Yeah.
1:13:18
And it's like, yeah, you didn't know all the
1:13:21
mysteries of heaven yet. Right. And I think I
1:13:23
actually really like the word yet in there. Yeah.
1:13:25
And it's like, yeah, more things will be continued
1:13:28
to be revealed. Yes. And it's the same for us
1:13:30
as that promise, like as you pursue the Lord's
1:13:32
like you will learn more. Yeah. More things will
1:13:34
be revealed. Yeah. and it's like okay here are
1:13:38
these um you know quote -unquote gods who are
1:13:41
like hey we got it let's go down he's like yeah
1:13:44
you didn't even know the mysteries yet all the
1:13:46
mysteries yet right um the ones you knew were
1:13:48
actually worthless sure and you went and taught
1:13:51
them to people anyway yeah and corrupted them
1:13:53
yeah and now they're committing massive evil
1:13:56
yes it's like that's what happens like you came
1:13:58
down it's like the stuff you had wasn't even
1:13:59
really worthwhile massive evil that's our metal
1:14:02
band Sorry that thing I keep doing where I just
1:14:06
like I want to say something else. I'm like,
1:14:08
let me just insert that word Massive evil what
1:14:14
I mean I think they're playing down the street
1:14:20
But yeah, so when we look at stars, yeah, okay
1:14:26
our stars angels And it's like, okay. Well, what
1:14:29
does the word angel mean? Yeah. Well angel is
1:14:31
a title It's a job title. And even in Scripture,
1:14:36
it's oftentimes used to refer to spiritual beings,
1:14:41
but it's also used to refer to humans as well.
1:14:47
And so it's like, well, what is it? It's like,
1:14:50
well, angel means messenger, so it's this...
1:14:52
it's this thing that delivers a message from
1:14:54
God, who tells the story of God and points you
1:14:57
toward him. So if we take it in that way, it's
1:15:00
like, okay, yes, stars are angels because they
1:15:03
declare the glory of God. They're telling the
1:15:07
story of the gospel. Oh, I see what you're saying.
1:15:09
Yeah, that's pretty simply put. Yeah, because
1:15:14
the hosts are witnesses to the glory of God.
1:15:17
So the hosts of heaven. whether they're beings
1:15:20
or actual just balls of fire. Right. Or if the
1:15:24
balls of fire are beings. Either way, they are
1:15:29
a witness to us of the glory of God. Yes. And
1:15:33
if we worship them, then we miss who they're
1:15:37
giving glory to. That's right. And even when
1:15:40
we look at it from even like a Deuteronomy 32
1:15:42
standpoint, it's like, yeah, let's say for the
1:15:45
sake of the argument, that like, yeah, there
1:15:47
actually is a being who rules from Saturn, or
1:15:51
rules from this star. It's like, yeah, and his
1:15:54
job is to point you toward God, to Yahweh, but
1:15:58
he didn't do that. He actually is trying to point
1:16:01
you away from him. Yeah. Yeah, he's trying to
1:16:04
point you to Saturn. Yes. Yeah, exactly. As the
1:16:08
source. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I like that. So that
1:16:14
is that's that's you heard it you heard it here
1:16:16
first our martyrs row our stars angels our angels
1:16:23
stars The heavenly hosts declare the glory of
1:16:27
God Am I just making statements now? We'll find
1:16:32
out next time three two one