Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / ​ @PraiseIAMOfficial OSAS SHOWDOWN! @SmokeySaintPolemics Vs @kevinsBiblicaldiscussions ​

Transcript

​ @PraiseIAMOfficial OSAS SHOWDOWN! @SmokeySaintPolemics Vs @kevinsBiblicaldiscussions ​ · Brett Keane and Eve Show

• 3:08
  Greetings to all those tuning in.
• 3:10
  I'm excited to bring you this epic O sass debate tonight.
• 3:14
  We got Kevin's Kevin biblical discussions verse Smokey St.
• 3:18
  Before they get at it, I would like for the Baders to give a
• 3:21
  brief intro about themselves. Glad to have you here,
• 3:24
  gentlemen. It should be a good one tonight
• 3:27
  and just get a little bit of info about yourselves and then
• 3:31
  we'll head into the formats and it should be a good one tonight
• 3:34
  and welcome everyone out there. And 1st, we'll hand it to Kevin
• 3:41
  Censure. I think you've been here.
• 3:43
  Yeah, you've been here numerous times back over the years.
• 3:47
  It's a pleasure to have you. Go ahead.
• 3:49
  And if you want to give a brief intro about yourself, once
• 3:51
  you're up to your channel, you know, but you want to say to the
• 3:54
  audience, go ahead. Hello everyone, thank you for
• 3:58
  tuning in for this debate. I hope you'll be fruitful and
• 4:00
  edifying. And I think the truth.
• 4:03
  I'm hoping that the truth of God's eternal salvation will be
• 4:06
  shown here tonight. And I pray that anyone in the
• 4:09
  live chat that holds a different view will come to repentance.
• 4:13
  Anyone's welcome to my channel after doing an after show.
• 4:16
  If you want to come over and give your thoughts on who you
• 4:19
  think won or lost the debate and why, you're welcome to join.
• 4:23
  And please have patience with me.
• 4:25
  So I'm still getting over being sick.
• 4:27
  My voice is a little shot, but yeah, I'm here.
• 4:30
  Ready to rock'n'roll man. Sounds good my man, Thank you so
• 4:35
  much. We'll hand it out to Smokey.
• 4:37
  And glad to have you. Smokey Weed.
• 4:39
  You've been here numerous times too, throwing down, but back in
• 4:42
  old times. Go ahead.
• 4:44
  Way back in the day. Yeah.
• 4:46
  Well, thank you, Praise. Thank you for hosting.
• 4:48
  And Kevin, thank you for agreeing to do the debate today.
• 4:51
  Yeah, I'm Smokey St. My channel is Smokey St.
• 4:54
  Polemix. You can find me on YouTube.
• 4:57
  We do regular shows usually at least once or two or three times
• 5:01
  a week. It's usually open panel.
• 5:04
  We like people to come in and contribute and challenge
• 5:06
  thoughts and ideas. We do like to do live debates on
• 5:09
  the fly, live interactions on the fly, and cover important
• 5:13
  topics that defend Christianity and attack false world views.
• 5:16
  So that's about it for me. Thank you so much, Smokey.
• 5:20
  And now we'll head into the the format of the debate.
• 5:24
  So we have 5 to 7, five to seven minute openers.
• 5:28
  Then we'll have immediate rebuttal from the other side.
• 5:31
  And whoever does the rebuttal will go right into their opening
• 5:34
  and then the other side will do their last rebuttal.
• 5:38
  And then we're going to head into 210 minute cross
• 5:42
  examination periods for each side and they're going to
• 5:45
  alternate between each other. So an accumulation of four, 4
• 5:49
  total cross examination periods. And then we're just going to
• 5:53
  finish with the 20 minute or so open discussion and then five
• 5:57
  minute Closings. And please tag me for any
• 6:01
  questions so we can ask the debaters in the question answer
• 6:04
  period. We appreciate that.
• 6:06
  And yeah, I think that's about it.
• 6:09
  And let's get ready to go here. I have the timer, Kevin.
• 6:13
  So let me pull up your presentation here.
• 6:21
  And whenever you're ready, this say, I mean whenever you wanted
• 6:25
  me to start the timer to say I'm ready and we'll get going here.
• 6:29
  All right, you can. You can start the timer.
• 6:32
  So everyone's heard this topic numerous times, so I'm trying to
• 6:37
  figure out a way. How do I come to this discussion
• 6:39
  that hasn't already been done? How do I present something new
• 6:43
  and interesting? So I'm going to approach this
• 6:45
  tonight with this what I call the Co Savior argument.
• 6:49
  Now the Bible tells us that God alone is the Savior.
• 6:53
  Isaiah 4310 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord and my servant
• 6:57
  whom I have chosen, that Eno may know and believe me and
• 6:59
  understand that I am he before me there was no God form,
• 7:03
  neither shall they be after me. Even I I am the Lord and besides
• 7:06
  me there is no Savior. So God alone is a Savior.
• 7:12
  Isaiah 4314 or 13 Sorry. Yeah before the days was I am He
• 7:16
  and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
• 7:19
  I will work and who shall let it or reverse it?
• 7:23
  Notice that no one or none the King James says can deliver from
• 7:27
  the hand of God. This includes yourself.
• 7:28
  This is a salvation passage that is backed up by John 10 when
• 7:33
  Jesus says that no one can snatch you out of his hand or
• 7:35
  the Father's hand. The looting back to the Old
• 7:37
  Testament. So when God alone is the savior,
• 7:42
  what he does, he also brings it to completion.
• 7:44
  He's not a partial savior. He doesn't start something and
• 7:47
  then fail to finish it. If he started your salvation, he
• 7:49
  will complete it. Hosea 13 four Yeah, I am the
• 7:54
  Lord thy God. From the land of Egypt.
• 7:55
  Thou shalt know no God but me, for there is no savior besides
• 7:59
  me. So we have established that the
• 8:02
  Bible teaches that there is only one Savior and that is God.
• 8:07
  So here's the consequence of rejecting faith alone, which my
• 8:11
  debate opponent does. In a previous discussion I've
• 8:13
  had with him, he says he denies the doctrine of solafide.
• 8:16
  So he does not believe that we are saved by faith alone in
• 8:19
  Christ. So here are the consequences of
• 8:22
  of rejecting this. So if salvation is then
• 8:25
  dependent not on Christ alone, but it's up to you.
• 8:29
  This implies that salvation is not fully secured by the
• 8:32
  finished work of Jesus Christ, but it's partially sustained by
• 8:36
  our ongoing works and obedience. This sounds like salvation
• 8:41
  ultimately depends on our works or our faithfulness and not
• 8:44
  entirely upon God and His grace. If your salvation depends on you
• 8:49
  being obedient or continuing in good works, then your
• 8:52
  performance becomes a condition for justification and that
• 8:56
  contradicts to numerous passages in the Bible.
• 9:00
  So I'm going to demonstrate that we're saved by Christ alone.
• 9:05
  Ephesians 29 Ephesians 29 classic verse go by grace.
• 9:10
  You've been saved through faith. This not of yourselves.
• 9:12
  It is the gift of God. So salvation's a gift.
• 9:15
  It's not earned and it's not of works so no one can boast right,
• 9:20
  so you can't earn it. So this idea of well, if there's
• 9:24
  people say like, well, it's initially by faith, but then it
• 9:27
  you have to stay faithful and obedient and do all these
• 9:31
  specific works in order to keep your justification.
• 9:35
  Well, if that is the case, then it would be by works.
• 9:38
  OK, so that has to be false. Romans 4, what says the
• 9:42
  Scripture? Abraham believed God has
• 9:44
  accounted him for righteousness. Now to him that works is the
• 9:48
  reward reckoned not of grace but of debt.
• 9:51
  But to him who doesn't work but believes on him who justifies
• 9:55
  the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
• 9:59
  That's faith alone. And then Romans 11/6 presents a
• 10:04
  true dichotomy. And this is very important.
• 10:07
  Pay attention to this. If it's by grace, then it is no
• 10:10
  longer of your works. Otherwise grace is no longer
• 10:14
  grace, but it's. But if it's of works, then it
• 10:17
  can't be of grace. So the Bible put is presenting a
• 10:20
  true dichotomy. Either it's entirely of God's
• 10:23
  grace or it has to entirely be of works.
• 10:26
  You can't mix the 2. So this, this middle position
• 10:29
  that people try to come to, well, well, it's, it's started
• 10:32
  by faith, but then it's finished by it works.
• 10:35
  The Scripture rejects that. This is a true dichotomy.
• 10:39
  It's either all of grace or it's all of works.
• 10:42
  You can't mix it. That's a Romans 11/6.
• 10:48
  Now if it's entirely of God's grace and not of our works, that
• 10:52
  logically entails eternal security, must be true.
• 10:56
  John 524 Verily, verily, I say to you, he that hears my word
• 11:00
  and believes on him who has sent me has everlasting life, present
• 11:02
  tense, and shall not come into condemnation.
• 11:07
  What's that Speaking of? The lake of fire, doom, hell,
• 11:10
  but is but is passed from death to life.
• 11:13
  What death? Well, the eternal, the eternal
• 11:16
  death. And then, of course, John 27,
• 11:20
  John 1027. My sheep hear my voice.
• 11:23
  I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and
• 11:27
  they shall. And that's five Greek words, by
• 11:29
  the way, Oh my abalante istone Anna, they shall never perish.
• 11:34
  It's the most emphatic way in Greek of saying something is
• 11:36
  impossible. They shall never perish, neither
• 11:39
  shall any pluck them out of my hand.
• 11:41
  My father, which gave them to me is greater than all.
• 11:44
  No one's able to pluck them on my father's hand.
• 11:45
  And I already alluded back to Isaiah where Jesus is getting
• 11:49
  that from. Philippians 1-6 is a beautiful
• 11:53
  promise that God makes in the New Testament saying being
• 11:56
  confident is very thing. He which has begun the good work
• 11:59
  in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ the King.
• 12:03
  James says there's modern translations that say we'll
• 12:06
  bring it to completion at the day of of Christ.
• 12:10
  Either way, it's saying the same thing.
• 12:12
  What it's saying is that whatever God started in you, he
• 12:15
  ultimately finishes it. So that's ruling out the
• 12:19
  possibility of losing it. OK, so God promises to finish
• 12:24
  what he starts from justification to glorification.
• 12:27
  Hebrews 10/10 By the which we are sanctified through the
• 12:30
  offering of the blood and the body of Christ once and for all.
• 12:35
  Right, one minute. Justified, it's once and for all
• 12:39
  justified, sanctified, declared righteous, not guilty forever
• 12:44
  sanctified, deny eternal security.
• 12:46
  Call God a liar first. John 510.
• 12:49
  He that believes on the Son of God has his witness in himself.
• 12:51
  You know you're saved. He that believes not the record
• 12:54
  or he that believes not God has made him a liar because he
• 12:57
  doesn't believe the record God gave his Son.
• 12:59
  And this is the record that God has given to us eternal life.
• 13:03
  What is eternal life? It's it means it's life without
• 13:05
  an ending point. If you could lose it as an
• 13:07
  ending. And if you deny this, you're
• 13:09
  calling God a liar. So those are the ramifications
• 13:11
  of denying the doctrine of eternal security.
• 13:14
  I'll end it there. Thank you.
• 13:17
  All right, Kevin, thank you so much for that opening.
• 13:19
  Now we're going to hand it out to Smokey for his five to seven
• 13:23
  minute opener. Just let me know when you're
• 13:25
  ready, Smokey. Also, if you have a
• 13:27
  presentation, go ahead and share it.
• 13:29
  I'll put it up on the board. No, I don't have a presentation,
• 13:32
  but is this opener or rebuttal? Oh, that's right.
• 13:36
  But sorry guys, this is the rebuttal period, the three to
• 13:39
  five minute rebuttal and then you get and then after that
• 13:42
  period, everyone, we're going to let Smokey do his opener right
• 13:45
  after that, so he's going to have two back-to-back segments.
• 13:50
  So go ahead with search your rebut whenever you're ready.
• 13:53
  OK, perfect. All right.
• 13:55
  So I guess I'll start with my rebuttal.
• 13:58
  I'll try to take this kind of in clumps with the points that he
• 14:02
  was generally going to. And I've I've seen this type of
• 14:06
  idea before of the idea of of claiming that somehow at some
• 14:10
  level we are essential. Oh, you know, I'll turn my
• 14:13
  camera on. There we go.
• 14:14
  That's better. At some point we are somehow
• 14:18
  mutually responsible for salvation.
• 14:20
  But the key of Scripture, where Kevin is attempting to hinge a
• 14:23
  lot of this argument has to do with the fact that God is the
• 14:26
  primary mover of salvation. There is nothing that any human
• 14:30
  being did by its own merit or anything that we showed in terms
• 14:34
  of our righteousness, any one of us that justified the merit of
• 14:38
  the sacrifice of the sun for the sake of our salvation.
• 14:42
  And this is painting a very clear picture of people in many
• 14:46
  instances that might be developing a sense of arrogance
• 14:49
  over their position of which to boast.
• 14:52
  For is the reminder of a state of humility that you wouldn't
• 14:55
  even be able to have this choice.
• 14:56
  You wouldn't even be able to have the opportunity of
• 14:59
  salvation unless Christ Himself had come and by His grace
• 15:03
  offered you that particular chance.
• 15:06
  And what is the methodology of the reception of this grace,
• 15:10
  this gracious offer for salvation?
• 15:12
  Well, it's faith. And then ultimately comes down
• 15:16
  to what me and Kevin will probably disagree with is what
• 15:19
  faith is, what is the substance of faith?
• 15:21
  What is saving faith and what does it actually manifest as,
• 15:25
  which I'm sure we'll delve into more as we get into the debate.
• 15:30
  I do see that he kind of argues the point that salvation does
• 15:34
  not depend on faithfulness. And of course, I wholeheartedly
• 15:39
  disagree with us. And I think the Bible is clear
• 15:42
  in many different instances, which I'm sure we'll get into,
• 15:45
  that it's those that endure that are saved.
• 15:48
  It's those that have a commitment to God to restrain
• 15:51
  and refrain from the pollutions of the world from from moving
• 15:56
  into a state of apostasy or rejection of God or giving heed
• 15:59
  to seducing spirits by falling away from the faith.
• 16:02
  If the faith is the link to the grace, then the faith must be
• 16:05
  valid. Kevin is presenting an idea that
• 16:08
  I do not think can actually be ultimately supported from
• 16:11
  Scripture, which is the idea that the saving faith, the
• 16:14
  saving belief, is some sort of singular moment of mental
• 16:17
  ascensus. As if it's just something that
• 16:19
  you kind of adopt as being true without any real application to
• 16:22
  the life or the commitment of which the truth is around,
• 16:26
  commitment to the person by which the truth is around.
• 16:28
  I think that that fails wholeheartedly in terms of
• 16:31
  scrutiny and comparison to Scripture.
• 16:34
  He argues the faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone.
• 16:38
  I I think even in that regard, that is a failure in terms of
• 16:42
  rhetoric. You are not saved by three
• 16:45
  things alone. You are saved by three things or
• 16:48
  you're saved by one thing alone. The fact that this rhetoric has
• 16:51
  evolved to nonsensical proportions should be a red flag
• 16:55
  to all of you. We are saved by grace through
• 16:58
  faith, by the sacrifice of Christ that gave us the
• 17:02
  opportunity to do this. So Kevin is attempting, in my
• 17:05
  view, to kind of a brutalize the text and some of these regards
• 17:09
  to twist it to kind of match this, this idea that faith is
• 17:13
  nothing other than a momentary fuzzy thought about the
• 17:16
  existence of God. And as I get into my opening, I
• 17:18
  will explore that a little bit more further.
• 17:22
  He argues that faith isn't faithfulness will challenge that
• 17:25
  as we move forward. He argues that continuing to
• 17:28
  believe is a work and I find this very very interesting that
• 17:32
  he takes this position because Kevin deny is that the initial
• 17:36
  belief is work at all. So that state of mental assensus
• 17:40
  he's regularly claimed is not a work.
• 17:43
  So how if the initial belief is not a work, how in the world can
• 17:48
  continuing to believe be a work if it's still just a mental
• 17:52
  state? It doesn't make any sense.
• 17:54
  If the initial belief isn't a work to be saved, then neither
• 17:58
  is the continual to believe and his point is completely moot and
• 18:01
  failed on its surface. He argues that, OK, he argues,
• 18:06
  I'll wrap this up quickly. He argues salvation must be
• 18:09
  without works in Romans 11/6. However, if you actually read
• 18:13
  further down the passage, it's very clear that people were cut
• 18:16
  off for unbelief. And this is where we get the
• 18:19
  grafting end of the wild vine as presented in Romans 11.
• 18:23
  This passage is detrimental to his position.
• 18:25
  It doesn't concrete it at all. And just read a little bit
• 18:27
  further and you'll see how again, this whole thing he's
• 18:30
  defending, which is that a maintenance of belief isn't
• 18:34
  required for salvation. We clear see clearly in Romans
• 18:37
  11 that a suspension or negation of belief causes you to be cut
• 18:41
  off. And we all know what that means.
• 18:43
  That is a lack of salvation. Even if you already were
• 18:47
  attached because of belief, you can be cut off.
• 18:49
  That to me in Romans 11 is a very clear sign that you can
• 18:53
  lose your salvation because how can you be cut off if you
• 18:56
  weren't attached to begin with? And I guess with that, I'll go
• 19:00
  ahead and yield. There were a couple other
• 19:01
  passages that I might need to look up, but we can move on with
• 19:04
  that as we go into cross examination.
• 19:06
  So I'll yield at least for my rebuttal, So.
• 19:10
  Thank you so much, Smokey, for that rebuttal period.
• 19:12
  Now I'll just let the audience know that after his rebuttal,
• 19:16
  now he's going to go into his opening presentation and we're
• 19:19
  just going to keep him on the screen here. 5 to 7 minutes
• 19:23
  whenever you're ready. Go ahead, Smokey.
• 19:25
  Beautiful. I tried to compact this into
• 19:28
  some meta arguments to kind of get to the core of the belief
• 19:32
  and the ideas that I see presented in scripture that I
• 19:35
  think do rival the O SAS interpretation of many of these
• 19:39
  texts. Number one, I'm going to start
• 19:41
  with this, and this is one of my meta arguments that I've had for
• 19:44
  a hot minute and I'm happy to look into this, is that even if
• 19:47
  OSAS is true, it's actually worthless doctrine.
• 19:51
  And the reason for this is you have to, in order to be able to
• 19:54
  apply OSAS, you have to be able to state definitively who is
• 19:58
  absolutely certainly saved. Now aside, now there's 2
• 20:01
  problems with this. The first problem.
• 20:04
  Is the fact that you have to have absolute, complete 100%
• 20:08
  epistemological certainty that you can't possibly be wrong as a
• 20:12
  subjective agent and you're called to have humility by
• 20:15
  scripture? I believe that includes
• 20:16
  intellectual humility. Holding this type of position is
• 20:19
  not only philosophical philosophically untenable, it's
• 20:23
  completely nonsensical and it completely ignores the idea that
• 20:27
  you are subjective agent that can be prone to error and
• 20:31
  engaging in bad epistemology or even interpretation of text.
• 20:35
  So you have to adopt A very hard line, philosophical, untenable
• 20:39
  idea that you can't possibly be wrong before you even begin to
• 20:42
  the point where you can actually apply this doctrine.
• 20:46
  Since you can't delve into the mind of God and perceive the
• 20:50
  objective standard of who is definitively saved and not
• 20:53
  saved. You have to respect that in that
• 20:56
  regard. To state otherwise is to claim
• 20:59
  basically, I think, a form of blasphemy that you can climb
• 21:02
  into the mind of God and know definitively who is saved and
• 21:06
  who is not saved. And warnings and scripture such
• 21:09
  as, you know, test yourselves to see whether or not you are in
• 21:12
  the faith seem to be completely nonsensical.
• 21:16
  To be in the faith is to be saved.
• 21:17
  To be out of the faith it's not be saved.
• 21:19
  So why would you need to test yourself to see if you're on the
• 21:23
  in the faith? If you just have that singular
• 21:25
  moment of a census and completely locked in, what type
• 21:28
  of testing would possibly be needed after that at all?
• 21:32
  So on top of the, the main idea is that again, this requires
• 21:35
  some sort of absolute epistemological certainty which
• 21:37
  people can't really necessarily hinge their doctrine and idea
• 21:42
  on. So even at the very core, this
• 21:44
  thing almost has a problem of modal collapse where it doesn't
• 21:47
  really make sense, attempting to make definitive claims that it
• 21:50
  can't actually in any philosophical way truly justify
• 21:55
  as being coherent. Point #2 of my meta argument.
• 21:59
  I'll be happy to explore that first one more as we move on.
• 22:02
  Martyrdom was unnecessary. This is point #2 early
• 22:06
  Christianity, that Christians died following the words of
• 22:10
  Christ in Matthew 10 about not denying Him before men or he
• 22:14
  would deny them before the Father, and therefore they
• 22:18
  proved themselves as sheep which hear His voice and follow Him,
• 22:22
  which is the definition of what a sheep is.
• 22:25
  It's not someone that just gives a mental a census of something
• 22:28
  being true, it's someone who actually follows, who conducts
• 22:31
  themselves and goes along the right along with the commands
• 22:34
  and the instructions of the shepherd.
• 22:38
  That is what defines a sheep. So by definition of being a
• 22:41
  sheep, you have to be someone who actually follows him.
• 22:46
  If you don't follow Christ you are not a sheep as defined in
• 22:48
  John 10. So how can one say that the
• 22:51
  following of Christ is non essential to your state as a
• 22:54
  sheep? Sanctification is not optional
• 22:56
  in your state of salvation, and this passage to me proves it.
• 23:01
  Can OSAS really present the idea that one can be saved after
• 23:03
  violating this harsh warning about denying Christ in Matthew
• 23:07
  10? Will any of you expect any of
• 23:09
  you amongst the free grace or the martyr just camp?
• 23:12
  Will any of you expect Jesus to acknowledge you to His Father if
• 23:16
  you deny Him before men contrary to His words in Scripture?
• 23:20
  You have to believe that Christ was not being truthful when He
• 23:24
  gave this warning. If you believe that you can
• 23:26
  still undoubtedly be saved even after you have denied Him among
• 23:30
  men, that the promise is that He will deny you in front of the
• 23:33
  Father. So what are you even believing
• 23:36
  that you think saves you if you aren't believing the teachings
• 23:39
  of Christ? And this is of course for those
• 23:41
  in the OSAS realm who believe. Just this mental ascensus is all
• 23:44
  you need to save you. Well, what are you even
• 23:46
  believing if you're not believing the words and
• 23:48
  instructions, commands and warnings of Christ?
• 23:51
  Regard also the harsh warning in Matthew 6.
• 23:54
  You can only be saved if your sins are forgiven.
• 23:56
  And Christ clearly states that you will not be forgiven unless
• 23:58
  you forgive others. Again, what are you believing
• 24:01
  that saves you? An O SAS if you aren't believing
• 24:04
  the teachings of Christ? Clearly more is expected of us
• 24:07
  than simply a mental affirmation of something being true.
• 24:11
  This clearly shows that biblical saving belief is more than just
• 24:13
  the cultural colloquial definition of the word believe,
• 24:17
  which is just to affirm something is generally true.
• 24:20
  Biblical idea of belief goes much deeper and is much more
• 24:23
  intensive. Let's see, how many?
• 24:27
  How many minutes do I appraise? Oh yeah, 2 minutes.
• 24:33
  Go ahead. OK, I'll move on to the sword in
• 24:37
  the scene, and I'll try to finish with a little bit of the
• 24:39
  substance of the faith of Abraham.
• 24:41
  So we're in the scene and Luke 8 talks about people who believe
• 24:45
  for a time now, OSA says you just have to believe to be
• 24:47
  saved. This passage says that they
• 24:49
  believe they believe for a time, but then they wither away.
• 24:52
  So some extrapolation needs to be done from the OSAS side is
• 24:55
  how this possibly makes sense. Because clearly this is a
• 24:58
  fruitless tree and something that is fruitless is cut off and
• 25:02
  cast into the fire. And only the seed that fell on
• 25:05
  good fruit that actually persevered and endured and bared
• 25:07
  fruit was the only one in the sower in the sea period.
• 25:10
  But I can see justifiable to be staged if something is cut off
• 25:13
  and thrown in the fire, especially if it's wood or a a
• 25:17
  burned up plant. This is not a purifying action.
• 25:19
  This does not follow the the anecdote or the example or the
• 25:22
  analogy at all. You do not refine wood by
• 25:26
  throwing it into the fire. You burn it up and it turns to
• 25:29
  ash. So this is very much to me a
• 25:31
  very destructive analogy. And to finish up, I want to talk
• 25:34
  a little bit about the substance of the faith of Abraham.
• 25:36
  I'm hoping we can delve into this a bit more later, but a lot
• 25:40
  of this hinges and Abraham is a good example used many times in
• 25:43
  a couple of the passage that even Kevin wanted to use was the
• 25:47
  idea that you are not saved by works of the law.
• 25:50
  And in that actually we can agree, but that needs to be
• 25:52
  explored. But what was Abraham saved by?
• 25:55
  Well, it says that he believed God and it was accounted him for
• 25:57
  righteous. Well believed what?
• 25:59
  He certainly didn't believe the promise.
• 26:01
  He lied to Pharaoh in order to avoid, you know, having issues
• 26:04
  with his wife who was attractive.
• 26:05
  We thought they'd kill him and stuff like that.
• 26:07
  I didn't necessarily believe God.
• 26:08
  Then in the promise, he didn't necessarily believe God when he
• 26:11
  took his, his handmaid, you know, Hagar and had Ishmael and
• 26:15
  that caused a whole complete and utter mess in his household.
• 26:18
  So what exactly did he believe that saved him?
• 26:21
  Well, as far as I can see, it wasn't really a substance of a
• 26:23
  metric of how much he believed God and believed God's promises.
• 26:26
  It was a sign of his commitment because when he was asked to go
• 26:30
  sacrifice Isaac, he'd obeyed, He submitted.
• 26:34
  He he showed his fidelity and his commitment to God, even
• 26:38
  though he'd shown multiple times that really, he didn't actually
• 26:40
  believe the promise of God. And if he didn't believe the
• 26:42
  promise of God, then what did he believe exactly to be saved?
• 26:46
  Well, I think that the context is very, very clear.
• 26:49
  It wasn't about some state of mental ascensus of the belief of
• 26:52
  some sort of impending promise of the future.
• 26:55
  It was about the idea that Abraham had committed and
• 26:57
  submitted to God in his life and followed his commands.
• 27:01
  Even if he was not following any works of the law, he was
• 27:05
  certainly following and submitting with commitment to
• 27:07
  God, and that is what saved him. With that, I guess I will go
• 27:10
  ahead and I'll go ahead and yield there.
• 27:13
  I could go more but I think I'm almost done anyway so I'll.
• 27:15
  Yield. Yeah, you were right there.
• 27:17
  And thank you so much, Smokey, for that opening.
• 27:20
  But now we're going to give it to Kevin for his five minute
• 27:24
  rebuttal. And whenever you're ready,
• 27:26
  Kevin, just we'll start your term whenever you get started.
• 27:30
  Go ahead. I hear a mute.
• 27:34
  Oh, there we go. OK, So what did he say?
• 27:40
  He said mental assent is essentially I'm arguing for a
• 27:44
  mental assent is what I think faith is.
• 27:47
  And that's not true. So when I read pistas in the
• 27:50
  Greek, I understand it to mean trust.
• 27:54
  So it's it's to be fully confident, fully persuaded and
• 27:56
  trusting. So if I if I'm convinced my
• 28:04
  front yard is made out of lava, I'm not going to walk on the
• 28:07
  grass, right, because I think it will melt my feet.
• 28:10
  So I'm fully persuaded, right, that the front yard is lava.
• 28:14
  Just like if I'm fully persuaded that Jesus is the Savior, he is
• 28:18
  who he says he is, I'm fully confident that I'm going to
• 28:20
  trust him. OK.
• 28:21
  It's not about it's not faithfulness and works.
• 28:25
  That's not the definition. So no, I'm not arguing for a
• 28:28
  pure mental assent like Bob Wilkin GES.
• 28:31
  I don't agree with that. You said O SAS is worthless
• 28:35
  because you can't ultimately know who is saved or who isn't
• 28:38
  saved. And then you even argue that you
• 28:40
  yourself as the individual can't even know if you're saved.
• 28:43
  Well, the problem with that is the Bible makes it clear that
• 28:46
  you can. First, John 513 tells us that
• 28:49
  these things are written so that we can absolutely know we have
• 28:52
  eternal life. These things are written so that
• 28:55
  to those who believe that you know you have eternal life and
• 28:58
  that that that you may continue to believe on the name of Jesus.
• 29:03
  And again in Romans 816 says the Spirit himself Speaking of the
• 29:07
  Holy Spirit, bears witness with our spirits that we are the
• 29:09
  children of God. So the Bible is quite dogmatic.
• 29:13
  It makes it quite clear that if you're saved, you can absolutely
• 29:15
  know for certain you are saved. And you can call that arrogant
• 29:20
  if you want to, but I'm going to stand on what the Bible has to
• 29:23
  say. Smokey.
• 29:26
  Then you brought up Second Corinthians 13 five.
• 29:30
  You didn't quote it verbatim, but it's the passage where it
• 29:33
  talks about testing yourself to know or to see whether you be in
• 29:37
  the faith. And let me actually just read it
• 29:39
  real quick for the audience. Examine yourselves whether you
• 29:43
  be in the faith. Prove your own selves, lest ye
• 29:45
  not your know your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you,
• 29:48
  except ye be reprobates. Now that word there reprobate
• 29:53
  adakimos. Now remember, this is talking to
• 29:56
  believers that he's already acknowledged as his brethren,
• 29:59
  right? So this word, adaki mas, it can
• 30:03
  just mean rejected or set aside. It doesn't necessarily mean
• 30:06
  unsaved. So what I think this passage is
• 30:08
  talking about is examine yourself to see if you're
• 30:10
  walking in the faith. It's not.
• 30:12
  He's not telling these people to examine whether they've been
• 30:14
  born again or not. He's telling them to examine
• 30:17
  themselves to make sure they're walking in the faith, just like
• 30:20
  John does in his first John epistle.
• 30:23
  It's an issue of walking in the light rather than in darkness.
• 30:25
  It's not an issue of saved versus unsaved.
• 30:30
  You brought up forgive others, and if you don't, your Father
• 30:34
  won't forgive you. Well, here's the thing in the
• 30:37
  new covenant, and I remember when Jesus was preaching, this
• 30:39
  was before he went to the cross. So the new heart, the new
• 30:42
  covenant hasn't started yet. It started with His death.
• 30:46
  So if you read passages like Ezekiel 3626 through 27, it says
• 30:51
  you know the Lord will give you a new heart, take out your heart
• 30:53
  of stone, give you a heart of flesh, and will cause you to
• 30:56
  walk in His statutes and His judgments.
• 30:59
  So what happens is God gives you a forgiving heart and that you
• 31:03
  want to be forgiving towards others because of the love that
• 31:06
  God has shown for you, right? So like when someone does
• 31:09
  something wrong to me, it might take me a while to get over and
• 31:12
  forgive them, but ultimately it's like, you know what?
• 31:14
  God's forgiven me for much. So why don't I show that person
• 31:16
  the same amount of grace, right? So it's not an issue of like,
• 31:20
  well, if you're, if you're saved and you're not forgiving
• 31:23
  someone, then you're going to go to hell.
• 31:25
  Well, you got to remember, we're not perfect, we're not God.
• 31:29
  And sometimes it can take a long time to get over things.
• 31:31
  People get do really nasty things that hurt you very
• 31:33
  deeply. But I, I do believe that, you
• 31:40
  know, a Christian ultimately isn't going to, you know,
• 31:41
  completely hold a grudge. It's just not worth it.
• 31:47
  And then you, he brought up Abraham.
• 31:49
  What did Abraham believe? And then he said he was saved by
• 31:53
  following God. Well, according to Genesis 15-6,
• 31:58
  he wasn't saved by being obedient to God.
• 32:01
  It says he was, his faith was accounted for righteous.
• 32:04
  So he was saved by his faith, not by his obedience.
• 32:08
  Remember taking Isaac up and offering him that was that
• 32:12
  happened like a decade later in his life.
• 32:14
  He was he was justified back in Genesis 15 where it was nothing
• 32:18
  but faith. And you're right, Abraham wasn't
• 32:21
  faithful. He had moments of doubt.
• 32:22
  He wasn't trusting God. He lied about his wife saying,
• 32:26
  Oh no, this is my sister, you could have her.
• 32:28
  He didn't trust God that he'd bring forth Isaac.
• 32:32
  And so he took Hagar, right? So we see Abraham was a very
• 32:35
  flawed man. He did not have an ongoing
• 32:37
  trust. He had moments of trust.
• 32:40
  And that's my position. It's a moment of faith saves you
• 32:43
  forever. But that moment of faith, it's
• 32:44
  not a continual line. It's a it's a broken chain.
• 32:48
  You know, I'm saying no one's completely faithful to God.
• 32:51
  Only Christ is faithful. And I'll end it there.
• 32:54
  Thank you. All right.
• 32:57
  So that ends our opening and rebuttals period.
• 33:00
  And now we're going to have the first round of cross
• 33:04
  examinations and they're going to alternate back and forth 10
• 33:08
  minutes each. And since Kevin just got done
• 33:11
  with his rebuttal, I think it'd be proper that Smokey start us
• 33:15
  off with the cross examination, the first cross examination.
• 33:19
  And yeah, I'll, I'll try to keep track and make sure.
• 33:24
  I mean, we'd like, you know, just to have both sides be able
• 33:27
  to speak. But whenever you're ready Smoke,
• 33:29
  you go and start your cross exam.
• 33:33
  Sure. OK, interesting.
• 33:37
  So, Kevin, do you believe that the Bible instructs us to
• 33:43
  believe philosophically impossible versions of
• 33:46
  knowledge? What do you mean by that?
• 33:50
  I mean in terms of what knowing something is and what knowledge
• 33:54
  is like where Paul says we knock, walk not by sight but by
• 33:59
  faith, we see as in a mirror, darkly essentially.
• 34:03
  Do you think that? Considering that, do you think
• 34:05
  the Bible is teaching us to have some type of philosophically
• 34:10
  impossible version of knowledge? No.
• 34:15
  OK. So you would agree that the type
• 34:17
  of knowledge that a subjective agents can attain is limited?
• 34:23
  That's not the level of the way that God can know things.
• 34:26
  God can know things with absolute certainty, 100%.
• 34:30
  So we can't know anything 100% unless we're God.
• 34:33
  Do you agree? Yes, but can I?
• 34:35
  But there is a caveat though, because the Bible does say we
• 34:38
  can know we have eternal life, so God does grant us that access
• 34:41
  to that. OK, what kind of knowledge?
• 34:45
  Well, what do you how do you? Well, I can't answer questions.
• 34:51
  I would say it's a hard. Define, define how you get to
• 34:54
  knowledge or actually, let me, let me do this, let me do this
• 34:56
  better. What is a?
• 35:00
  It's fine. What is a justified true belief?
• 35:05
  It's something that we can affirm.
• 35:09
  OK. It has some sort of coherence or
• 35:12
  correspondence to things that are accepted as true and
• 35:16
  therefore can be considered to be a true belief.
• 35:19
  You don't disagree with that idea, OK, So can you be wrong
• 35:25
  when you are coming to believing things?
• 35:27
  Can you be mistaken or use bad epistemology?
• 35:31
  Yes. OK, so how can you have absolute
• 35:36
  100% certainty in anything if you have to admit the fact that
• 35:40
  you cannot have the same level of knowledge as God, which is
• 35:43
  objective knowledge, which is absolute knowledge, and you
• 35:46
  can't claim that position. So why are you claiming that
• 35:48
  position in regards to your salvation?
• 35:52
  That's a foolish question. That's like asking, well, how
• 35:54
  can you know for sure your mother exists if you know where
• 35:57
  you know where, right? That's not a foolish question.
• 36:00
  At some level we have to start our epistemology axiomatically
• 36:03
  or circular, or via reductive reasoning.
• 36:06
  So at some level we have to basically make certain value
• 36:09
  judgments as to our existence. But this is not the ability to
• 36:12
  see things objectively the way God does.
• 36:15
  When I look at the world, I see colors, but I see colors based
• 36:20
  upon the spectrum that can be reflected back to my eye that my
• 36:23
  eye is receptive to receive. I do not see all the colors that
• 36:26
  exist. It doesn't mean those colors
• 36:28
  don't exist, it just means my equipment is not geared to see
• 36:32
  them. So my subjective agency even in
• 36:34
  the seeing of colors and describing something is blue,
• 36:37
  it's not really an all absolute complete truth.
• 36:39
  True, because I don't have the objective viewpoint to be able
• 36:42
  to tell you what color it objectively is by viewing all
• 36:44
  white spectrums. Does that make sense to you?
• 36:47
  Yeah. OK.
• 36:49
  So my argument is again, back to the core point then, because you
• 36:53
  seem to basically agree with me, OSAS is worthless because you
• 36:57
  have to be able to apply absolute 100% certainty in the
• 37:01
  state of someone's salvation in order to apply the doctrine to
• 37:04
  begin with. Now, since you cannot reference
• 37:06
  that absolute 100% certainty as in the mind of God, God or the
• 37:10
  eye of God, then you cannot apply the doctrine and it's
• 37:14
  ultimately worthless and you do not know.
• 37:16
  And, and added to actually make it even worse, Kevin, just to
• 37:19
  see how you answer this and tell me how you feel about this.
• 37:21
  So. You can't know your suit.
• 37:24
  You can't judge fruits, so. So what do you do with the fact
• 37:27
  that you can't judge fruits to the state of someone's salvation
• 37:30
  when you have no metric of which to judge whether or not someone
• 37:33
  is actually legitimately saved? How can you claim that anyone is
• 37:36
  saved? Matthew Chapter 7 says that you
• 37:39
  can know false prophets by their fruits.
• 37:42
  Well, that's false prophets. Is that?
• 37:44
  Is that all? Is that the only metric?
• 37:46
  So you have to not teach false prophecies to be saved on top of
• 37:49
  belief. No, you asked me for a metric
• 37:52
  about judging someone by fruits and I gave you a biblical
• 37:54
  example. Yeah.
• 37:56
  So you're saying on top of believing what you have to do
• 38:00
  after that is not hold false beliefs and teach them that's
• 38:03
  something beyond just the initial believing that you have
• 38:05
  to not do? No, I'm specifically.
• 38:07
  Talking about, I'm specifically talking about false prophets.
• 38:11
  Yeah, I get that. I'm going to go ahead and
• 38:14
  concede that point. I'm not arguing that, OK?
• 38:16
  What I'm saying is these are people that are false prophets
• 38:20
  that are teaching bad things. So believing is not just enough,
• 38:24
  right? They have to not teach bad
• 38:27
  things or else what happens to them in Matthew 7.
• 38:31
  They're. Cast out right?
• 38:33
  No, the the problem with the false prophets that Jesus was
• 38:36
  talking about in Matthew 7 is that they never actually
• 38:39
  believed the truth. They always taught the.
• 38:40
  False. Where does it say that?
• 38:43
  Because he says I never knew you.
• 38:45
  He doesn't say I once knew them. It doesn't say they they didn't
• 38:47
  know him. Jesus does, he says.
• 38:50
  I never knew. You yeah, that's fine.
• 38:52
  He didn't know them because they didn't have a commitment and
• 38:55
  didn't say anything about them not knowing him by the way, they
• 38:57
  did know him. They're addressing him.
• 38:58
  No they didn't, Only addressing him They're.
• 39:00
  Saying wait, wait, wait, wait. Wonderful works.
• 39:02
  No, no, no, that doesn't make sense.
• 39:03
  That doesn't make sense. How?
• 39:04
  OK, So if Jesus never knew you, that entails that you never knew
• 39:07
  him either. No it doesn't.
• 39:09
  Yes it does. No, it doesn't actually.
• 39:12
  I, you know, I can know someone by the way, Kevin, and This is
• 39:15
  why that makes no sense. I, I haven't seen God.
• 39:18
  I haven't directly interacted with God.
• 39:20
  Can I still know God? You don't have to directly see
• 39:23
  him to know him. You know him through the Holy.
• 39:25
  Spirit Exactly exactly. So I your your metric of knowing
• 39:30
  is nonsensical. They knew God because they were
• 39:32
  addressing Jesus. They were addressing him as the
• 39:34
  Lord. Not only were they addressing
• 39:35
  him, they were saying they were doing these things in his name.
• 39:38
  Which Jesus now, I mean, which Jesus?
• 39:40
  The one they're talking to, the ones that's sending them to
• 39:43
  hell, He's the one they're addressing and he's.
• 39:45
  Saying they're. Addressing Jesus as they knew
• 39:48
  him, but he didn't know them. And why didn't he know them?
• 39:52
  Because they didn't trust him. Iniquity.
• 39:54
  No, no, no. They were trusting.
• 39:56
  Their works. There's nowhere of that in the
• 39:57
  text that is pure ice to Jesus. In fact, there wasn't even that
• 40:00
  type. Of what?
• 40:02
  Really, there wasn't even that type of belief back then for
• 40:04
  look at the. Passage They were pointing to
• 40:06
  their works. They trusted their.
• 40:07
  Works of the law. Those are works of the law.
• 40:11
  Any works casting out demons doing mirror?
• 40:13
  No, no, no, no, no. That's what Is that in the
• 40:14
  passage? Well, that's not what.
• 40:16
  Romans 4 says your favorite verse.
• 40:17
  It says works of the law. It does not say both adding to.
• 40:21
  Scrap does not say your. Your analogy is falling apart.
• 40:24
  These are not works of the law that they are boasting over.
• 40:27
  When did I say works positive? Works they're boasting over
• 40:30
  that, they think, erases their violation of the law because
• 40:33
  they're called lawlessness. They're not practicing the law.
• 40:37
  They're called lawless. Well, it's called lawless
• 40:40
  because. Everyone's kind of Christ you
• 40:44
  have. A question or are you just going
• 40:45
  to waffle? I'm not waffling.
• 40:47
  You're waffling. You cannot answer this, Kevin,
• 40:50
  because you don't. Let me.
• 40:51
  Know all right come on guys, let's let's try to keep it
• 40:53
  focused here go ahead and smoke you with a.
• 40:55
  Question praise I want to address.
• 40:56
  Something. What is the lawlessness that
• 40:59
  they're guilty of in Matthew 7, Kevin?
• 41:01
  Not trusting Jesus. Not trusting Jesus for what?
• 41:07
  Their salvation? OK, well, how do you know they
• 41:11
  weren't? I mean, clearly they're
• 41:13
  addressing him, trusting that they were saved.
• 41:15
  So what are they missing? They were trusting in their
• 41:17
  deeds instead of the Savior, and they were hoping that their
• 41:20
  deeds could present them faultless at the day of
• 41:23
  Judgement and Jesus. So the lawlessness is believing
• 41:27
  you're saved for deeds. Where is the law that says you
• 41:30
  are not saved by doing deeds? What is that law that's being?
• 41:33
  Broken there. OK, where is that?
• 41:35
  So I'm going to point out something to you.
• 41:37
  I did a video on this like two or three years ago.
• 41:40
  So everyone outside of Christ is considered lawless, right?
• 41:43
  Because we have an impossible standard.
• 41:46
  Jesus says be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
• 41:49
  And so if it's not a full dependence on Christ, then
• 41:52
  you're going to be held to that perfect standard and you're
• 41:54
  going to fall short of that. James 210 says if you fall short
• 41:57
  in one area, you're guilty of everything.
• 42:00
  So everyone outside of Christ is counted lawless on the Day of
• 42:04
  Judgement. That's why they're lawless,
• 42:07
  because they didn't trust in the Savior.
• 42:10
  That word for perfect? What?
• 42:12
  That word for perfect? What else can it mean?
• 42:14
  It could mean complete. Made whole, is that right?
• 42:18
  Yeah. So so the idea is that you are
• 42:23
  working towards that, right? That you are you are on your way
• 42:27
  to that position. That in fact, really isn't the
• 42:30
  context of that passage about showing perfect love, how God
• 42:34
  shows love to everyone and you know, rain on the on the like
• 42:39
  I'm showing that type of isn't that what it the context of the
• 42:42
  passage is about? Which one?
• 42:45
  Which which passage? Isn't the idea that that the
• 42:48
  perfect that you're that you're being called to is showing
• 42:50
  perfect love? Not necessarily perfect
• 42:54
  adherence to the to the letters of the law, but adherence to
• 42:57
  love? Or it seems like be the context
• 42:58
  of the passage you're referencing correct?
• 43:00
  No Jesus, when he said be perfect as your Father in heaven
• 43:03
  is perfect. It means be without flaw, be
• 43:06
  without error, be perfect in every.
• 43:08
  We thought indeed. That's how you take it sinless,
• 43:11
  yes. So, so Christ is commanding us
• 43:13
  to do something imperfect. That's something something
• 43:15
  impossible. He's commanding us to do
• 43:17
  something impossible. The reason?
• 43:18
  Yes. Do you want me to explain well
• 43:22
  the reason? Yeah, go ahead.
• 43:24
  The reason why I, I personally believe Jesus is giving us what
• 43:29
  God's standard is. And then once you realize it,
• 43:31
  like wait a minute, that's impossible.
• 43:33
  It it, it convinces you even more to just fully depend on
• 43:37
  Jesus because we can never meet up to what the Father requires
• 43:41
  of us. So we have to trust in his Son
• 43:43
  who does meet that requirement. And with that, I'm going to end
• 43:47
  relent the cross, the first segment of the cross exams and
• 43:51
  we'll hand it out to you. Kevin, you can start.
• 43:53
  Sure, cross examine, you're ready.
• 43:55
  Sure. All right, Smokey.
• 43:57
  So in our last conversation you told me that you reject the
• 44:00
  doctrine of solafide. Does that still stand true or
• 44:02
  have you changed your position on that?
• 44:05
  The way that you present it, absolutely.
• 44:08
  OK, so you also at the same time though would claim that you're
• 44:12
  not saved by your works, correct?
• 44:15
  Yeah, correct. Yeah.
• 44:17
  OK, So what do you do with Romans Chapter 11 when it gives
• 44:20
  us this a true dichotomy where it says it's either all of grace
• 44:25
  or it's all of works, there's no in between.
• 44:27
  What do you what do you do with that verse?
• 44:29
  Well, again, that's, as I already reiterated earlier,
• 44:32
  that's about the primary mover of the act of salvation, that
• 44:36
  someone believing that they are saved because they're so good or
• 44:40
  they're doing so great is the wrong motivation, is the wrong
• 44:43
  mindset. And Paul's correcting that.
• 44:45
  He's saying you don't even have the opportunity to do this or
• 44:47
  accept the path of salvation or have salvation all unless Christ
• 44:51
  had moved primarily first through grace and grace's
• 44:54
  unmerited favor. That's what it means.
• 44:57
  What that means is that the redemption act on humanity, the
• 45:00
  offer of salvation was not by anything that humanity had done
• 45:04
  or any benefit to them. The the point is to realize the
• 45:07
  primary mover of salvation in these passages to not be
• 45:11
  boasting over themselves of their works.
• 45:13
  And also as Paul mentions, the works of the law do not bring to
• 45:17
  salvation. This would have to be delved
• 45:18
  into deeper. OK, so where in Romans 11 does
• 45:22
  it talk about this theme of the primary mover of salvation?
• 45:25
  But not that it's not talking about, you know, it's a part of
• 45:29
  work from works. Well, no, I I wouldn't make an
• 45:33
  argument that it was explicitly stated that way.
• 45:35
  It's, it's comparative. It's comparative and exegetical
• 45:39
  that clearly what's happening is it's not.
• 45:41
  Paul is not saying you know you're not expected under any
• 45:45
  works at all whatsoever. He's specifically talking about
• 45:49
  the works of the sacrificial systems, which never saved
• 45:52
  anyone because that was not the method by which people were
• 45:55
  saved. And Hebrews 11 is all about
• 45:57
  this, is that the sacrificial system was part of their
• 46:01
  covenant for their protection of God.
• 46:03
  In ancient Israel, they said physical ramifications, people
• 46:06
  were still saved in the Old Testament.
• 46:08
  They were the entire time. And that's what Hebrews, I
• 46:11
  think, especially Hebrews 11 is about.
• 46:13
  They were saved by their commitment, their fidelity to
• 46:16
  God. That's how people were saved.
• 46:18
  So if they happen to live in Israel and doing the sacrificial
• 46:20
  system, well, great. But that's not the thing that
• 46:24
  saved them. Their fidelity to God and
• 46:25
  following His commands is what saved them.
• 46:27
  Can you, can you show me where it says they were saved by
• 46:29
  Fidelity? Where does it say that?
• 46:32
  Well, that's why I mean, that's what faith is, to be in heaven.
• 46:35
  I don't think that faith is simply a momentary, you know, a
• 46:39
  census. Well, don't straw man.
• 46:41
  I don't believe it's a momentary census either.
• 46:43
  Well, what do you believe it is? I'm sorry I can't ask questions.
• 46:47
  Sorry. No, my bad.
• 46:48
  I'll no it's OK. I don't know.
• 46:50
  I don't know what you think it is.
• 46:51
  I don't know what you think. It is.
• 46:53
  I think it means to trust. It's trust.
• 46:56
  Fully confident trust. They trust what?
• 47:01
  Who he is what he did. So I'm trusting Christ who is
• 47:08
  he? He's God in the flesh.
• 47:09
  He died for my sins. He rose again.
• 47:11
  I'm I'm fully trusting that and in response he makes me a son
• 47:15
  and gives me ever everlasting life and I'm I trust I trust
• 47:20
  that I trust him. That's it.
• 47:22
  He doesn't demand my works and obedience because they're just
• 47:25
  filthy rags. So Jude verse 24 says now unto
• 47:32
  him, him that is able to keep you from falling and to present
• 47:34
  you faultless before the presence of his glory with
• 47:37
  exceeding joy to the only wise God our Savior be glory and
• 47:42
  majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever.
• 47:45
  Amen. Now this verse seems to be
• 47:47
  implying to me I don't know what you think that God keeps us and
• 47:52
  presents us faultless before him.
• 47:54
  And so if we are to take your soteriology, how do we make this
• 47:59
  passage make sense? Because if it's possible that we
• 48:03
  might not make it, we might not be faultless and blameless, then
• 48:07
  what do you do with this verse? Like it?
• 48:09
  Wouldn't God be lying? Read it to me one more time.
• 48:15
  What? What is it, by the way?
• 48:17
  What? What is it?
• 48:17
  What passage is it? Kevin might have froze there.
• 48:27
  Do you know what passage you just said so I can pull it up
• 48:29
  real quick? Yeah, he I didn't.
• 48:32
  Yeah, I didn't get that. OK.
• 48:34
  That's fine, I'll wait till he comes.
• 48:35
  Back Jude verse 24 or 25. There we go.
• 48:38
  Kevin, are you back? Am I there?
• 48:41
  Hello. Can you hear me?
• 48:42
  OK, now you're back. Yeah.
• 48:44
  What I'll do is I'll I'll give you an extra couple seconds
• 48:47
  there to re to re get to start about 25 seconds or 30 seconds
• 48:53
  ago where you were at and then yeah.
• 48:55
  So what I just presented was Jude verse 24 through 25.
• 48:59
  OK, it says not unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
• 49:05
  and to present you faultless before the presence of His
• 49:09
  glory, with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Savior,
• 49:12
  be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever.
• 49:15
  Amen. How is this verse not a lie
• 49:18
  under your paradigm? Well, it's not.
• 49:20
  It applies to the faithful. It applies to those that have
• 49:23
  faith. If you don't have faith, it
• 49:24
  wouldn't, it wouldn't apply to you.
• 49:25
  So if you are working with God and that's where again I think
• 49:29
  that Philippians 2 verse 12 and 13 come into play probably in
• 49:35
  this one. Well.
• 49:36
  Can I cut you off right there though, like 'cause we're here
• 49:39
  in this passage, though, is faith or faithfulness?
• 49:41
  Mentioned. We'll see again, Kevin, you're
• 49:45
  playing a real dishonest game without the game the Muslims
• 49:49
  play because what they what they?
• 49:51
  Well, yeah, you are. Well, you can deny it or you can
• 49:53
  let me explain the dishonest thing you're doing so you know
• 49:57
  if you're actually doing it or not instead of just
• 49:59
  automatically dismissing it. So, So what you're doing is
• 50:03
  you're asking me to basically say the text has to say
• 50:06
  explicitly this or it's not true.
• 50:09
  And we don't ever interpret Bible that way.
• 50:12
  That's not what I said. It's a very dishonorable that is
• 50:15
  you're saying I asked you I asked.
• 50:17
  You where is faith? I asked you.
• 50:19
  Where is faith or faithfulness brought up in this passage?
• 50:23
  That's all I said. Well, I, well, here's, well, do
• 50:26
  you think that God is keeping unbelievers from stumbling?
• 50:32
  I mean, it seems pretty simple to me that if we're talking
• 50:35
  about someone who is keeping you from sowing, which is only the
• 50:37
  Holy Spirit, and you only get the Holy Spirit by believing.
• 50:40
  So this seems pretty connective to me.
• 50:42
  I don't know what explicit statement you're wanting from me
• 50:46
  out of this text. It seems to be very clearly
• 50:48
  connected. Who is keeping you from
• 50:50
  stumbling? Holy Spirit, Right.
• 50:53
  And how do you get the Holy Spirit by faith?
• 50:58
  There you go. So I don't, I don't see what you
• 51:00
  think point this passage is making.
• 51:04
  You have to have that faith in order to have the Holy Spirit
• 51:06
  that's going to do this. And if you don't have faith, you
• 51:08
  don't have the Holy Spirit. This isn't rocket science.
• 51:10
  This is, you know, 1 + 1 = 2. It's very simple.
• 51:13
  You have faith that saves and sanctifies where you work with
• 51:17
  God, as I believe that Philippians 2 says, where you
• 51:21
  synergize with God, you work out your salvation with fear and
• 51:23
  trembling. You, you, you work it out and
• 51:26
  then. You quote the rest.
• 51:26
  Of the test as you accept God and work with the Holy Spirit.
• 51:29
  Why didn't you finish the verse? And you can reject the work of
• 51:33
  the Holy Spirit. You didn't finish the verse, for
• 51:34
  it is God who works in you to will and to do with his good
• 51:37
  pleasure. Well, yes, and that preposition,
• 51:40
  by the way, in could actually be several other things into
• 51:44
  including with and by the way, the whole in thing where you're
• 51:48
  trying to make it monarchistic, where God is forcing you because
• 51:51
  you're a closet Calvinist, you keep denying it.
• 51:53
  OK. Yeah, yeah.
• 51:54
  Thanks for the straw man. Thanks.
• 51:56
  No, no, you, you, you, you don't seem to get it, but but you are.
• 52:01
  And you take these with very monarchistic process where like
• 52:03
  God is forcing it on you. Well, here's the problem, Kevin,
• 52:07
  the passage. Well, what do you mean by
• 52:08
  modern? Synergistic.
• 52:10
  The passage before it is clearly synergistic.
• 52:12
  So you taking a preposition in the next passage to try and
• 52:17
  claim that this is somehow proving your point.
• 52:19
  It isn't. The preposition was a choice by
• 52:21
  the translators, and you're trying to take a very
• 52:24
  monarchistic view of a passage that goes right after a clearly
• 52:27
  very synergistic view that says to work out your salvation with
• 52:32
  fear and trembling. And how do you do that?
• 52:34
  By working with the Holy Spirit who works with you to save you,
• 52:39
  that is. That is what's happening the
• 52:40
  other option. And he works.
• 52:41
  He. Works out of Calvinism.
• 52:42
  He. Gave you right.
• 52:43
  And if you wanted to make Calvinism, we'll do it.
• 52:45
  Just stop lying. I'm not a Calvinist.
• 52:48
  You are. You absolutely are because you
• 52:50
  go to SO. This is where we're going to.
• 52:52
  Moving and stating that that the Holy Spirit forces you into this
• 52:56
  path and you can't reject Him. When did I say that?
• 53:00
  You say it regularly. You just brought up a passage
• 53:02
  where we're again in #13. OK, let's let's get some things
• 53:06
  verse. 13 You say in you, he does it in you, so you can't
• 53:10
  resist it. That's how you're presenting.
• 53:12
  Do you generally, we have about a minute left, so I would like
• 53:15
  to let Kevin pitch his question to you, Smokey, and then we'll
• 53:19
  head into the second round. Go ahead, Kevin.
• 53:21
  So, Smokey, do you believe Christians are partakers of the
• 53:24
  divine nature? You're going to have to flush
• 53:31
  that out, man. Do I believe that we partake in
• 53:33
  the essence of God? No, You're going to have to
• 53:36
  explain that a lot. A lot more so.
• 53:38
  In the book of Peter, it says being heaven been partakers of
• 53:41
  the divine nature, escaping the corruptions that are in the
• 53:44
  world. So what I'm, what I'm getting at
• 53:47
  though, is do you believe that we have been a partaker in the
• 53:49
  sense where the Holy Spirit is a permanent and dwelling
• 53:53
  Tabernacle in the individual? What passage did you mention
• 53:58
  escaping the corruption of the world?
• 53:59
  It was the second Peter was. It second Peter chapter 1 having
• 54:02
  been made a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped
• 54:05
  the corruptions that are in the world.
• 54:06
  Right and how do you escape the corruptions of the world but by.
• 54:09
  The whole by faith, but right so I'm what I'm.
• 54:12
  Getting at only Spirit. By faith, hang on, this is my
• 54:15
  time. What I'm getting at is, do you
• 54:17
  ask me? The question, dude.
• 54:19
  Yeah. And I think right there we'll
• 54:21
  probably move into the second round after that unless we get
• 54:26
  we kind of got. I I had another follow up.
• 54:28
  Go ahead. No, I'll.
• 54:30
  Give him one more, give him one more.
• 54:31
  He's not going to make a make a discussion.
• 54:32
  Kevin, go ahead, Kevin. Yeah, go ahead, Kevin.
• 54:35
  Do you believe Christians are have two natures?
• 54:40
  What do you What do you mean by nature?
• 54:42
  Well, I'm trying to clear things up because you accused me of
• 54:44
  Calvinism, so I'm going to show you how it's not.
• 54:45
  Do you believe Christians have two natures?
• 54:50
  Tune No, no, we have a singular nature of the essence of of
• 54:54
  humanity. Like this is our singular
• 54:57
  nature. This is a this is a unified
• 54:59
  essence. This is the parts making a
• 55:00
  whole. This is the problem of the one
• 55:02
  and the many. I don't know what the hell
• 55:03
  you're asking. OK, so in my view, you have your
• 55:08
  old self, you have your sinful nature, and then once you're
• 55:11
  saved, you've been made partaker, the divine nature, the
• 55:13
  seed of Jesus. Like you know when first John,
• 55:17
  it says he was born of God, does not commit sin because his seed
• 55:19
  remains in him. So now there's two natures in a
• 55:23
  singular individual, right? Ezekiel 362627HE takes out your
• 55:28
  heart of flesh, gives you or takes out your heart of stone,
• 55:30
  gives you a heart of flesh. So you have two natures.
• 55:34
  Human beings at times act in accordance with who they are,
• 55:38
  who their natures. So there's going to be times
• 55:40
  because you have two natures. There's times you act according
• 55:43
  to the new nature you've been given at regeneration.
• 55:45
  There's times you act according to the old nature you had, that
• 55:47
  you were born with. That's all I'm saying.
• 55:49
  That's not Calvinism. I'm saying there's times you act
• 55:53
  in both because they're both a part of who you are now.
• 55:56
  That's not Calvinism. Calvinism says that it's
• 55:58
  irresistible, that God has effectually caused.
• 56:03
  I'm saying it's not an effectual causation.
• 56:05
  You're acting in accordance to who you are.
• 56:08
  Was there a question there or? No, I'm just trying to clarify
• 56:12
  because he he accused me of Calvinism.
• 56:13
  I wanted to clear that up to the.
• 56:14
  Audience, you are a Calvinist and that didn't answer it and
• 56:17
  that didn't fix anything. OK.
• 56:19
  All right, so let's let's move into the second round.
• 56:21
  Smokey, go ahead and you'll start your second period of your
• 56:25
  10 minute cross exam. OK, all right, Where'd it go
• 56:30
  from here? Let's see.
• 56:32
  OK, we did the Matthew 7. So, Kevin, so you believe the
• 56:40
  idea that one can hold on. How do I put this in terms of
• 56:47
  Abraham being saved by his faith?
• 56:52
  And can you point to any specific instance where you
• 56:57
  definitively can interpret that he actually did believe the
• 57:01
  promise of God and that's what was attributed to him for
• 57:04
  righteousness as opposed to something else?
• 57:08
  So in Genesis 15, God made a promise to Abraham that he'd
• 57:11
  make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky.
• 57:14
  Abraham believed God what he said, and he counted it to him
• 57:17
  as righteousness, and he justified him.
• 57:20
  Now could that not also be extrapolated to mean that he had
• 57:26
  noticia as to who God was, and he committed to obey God and to
• 57:30
  submit to God, and that that was actually the substance of his
• 57:33
  faith? No.
• 57:34
  And we have a problem because the Bible doesn't support your
• 57:37
  view. It just doesn't because Abraham.
• 57:41
  Abraham didn't. But Abraham believed that he he
• 57:45
  faltered in that belief constantly.
• 57:46
  So how could his failed belief be that which saved him?
• 57:49
  It had to be something else. That's the whole point of grace.
• 57:53
  Is that we have an imperfect trust in Jesus and he accounts
• 57:56
  it as righteous. Well, now you're going down the
• 57:58
  road and you understand. This right that you don't have
• 58:01
  to believe to be saved. This is.
• 58:03
  This is where you initial belief is necessary.
• 58:07
  For salvation your initial belief.
• 58:08
  How do you know he had initial belief?
• 58:11
  In that promise and not just commitment to God because the
• 58:15
  Bible says and Abraham. Believed past tense.
• 58:18
  He believed God, and God accounted it to him as righteous
• 58:23
  Genesis. So, so let's go.
• 58:26
  Ahead and go and. Go with that and let's now look
• 58:28
  at James 2. And you know Abraham is
• 58:32
  mentioned in James. Why do work Salvationists love
• 58:34
  this passage so much? Well, because it says that faith
• 58:37
  without works. Is dead and I know more take and
• 58:40
  I'll take I'll I'll see if you still hold this position do you
• 58:43
  still hold the position that this is just to justify you
• 58:46
  before men so there's a few things going on in.
• 58:50
  James 2 And yes, there are two justifications talked about in
• 58:53
  James 2. There's a justification before
• 58:56
  men, and there's a justification before God.
• 58:58
  The justification before God is for eternal life.
• 59:01
  The justification for men is is an outward display of who you
• 59:04
  are to others. And how do you tell which
• 59:07
  passage? Is talking about.
• 59:08
  Which? The context.
• 59:14
  You mean ice of? Jesus, you mean?
• 59:16
  Whichever one fits your pre programmed belief, right?
• 59:20
  No. Well, context.
• 59:22
  If we look at context and we go to James too, and we see it
• 59:26
  talking about faith without works is dead.
• 59:28
  It actually mentions Abraham that and his work in verse 23.
• 59:35
  So the idea that first of all, let me say this, the idea that
• 59:38
  you would think that this passage is justified before men
• 59:42
  I find comical. In fact, I find it to be.
• 59:45
  A complete and utter. Butchering, in fact the only
• 59:46
  other reference I can find well. Kevin, you can answer the only
• 59:51
  other reference. I will.
• 59:53
  I'll. I'll wait for you to finish
• 59:54
  cackling. Good.
• 59:58
  Good. Get your question out.
• 59:59
  I'm looking forward to answering it, please.
• 1:00:00
  Yeah. And yeah, it's fine to have a
• 1:00:01
  little bit of router, Ken, but. Let him finish and like we would
• 1:00:04
  try to minimalize that you know you know by the way microphones
• 1:00:07
  when I. Laugh intentionally.
• 1:00:09
  When you intentionally cackle like a hyena as close into the
• 1:00:12
  mic as you can, it makes it look like you're trying to be
• 1:00:15
  distracted. So like it, it kind of it makes
• 1:00:18
  you look like a clown. Just so you know, let's let's
• 1:00:20
  focus, let's focus on where was. I Where was I?
• 1:00:25
  OK, James 2, The only other reference, Kevin, do you realize
• 1:00:29
  that the only other reference to being justified before men that
• 1:00:32
  I could find in the Bible was in a negative context of Christ
• 1:00:38
  speaking to the Pharisees, of how they were seeking to justify
• 1:00:40
  themselves before men instead of before God, and they were being
• 1:00:43
  chastised for it? Do you have any verse anywhere
• 1:00:47
  in Scripture that presents something that is positive to be
• 1:00:50
  justified before men or instruction to be justified
• 1:00:53
  before men, other than the one I mentioned, which is of a
• 1:00:56
  negative context? Yeah, Romans chapter 4.
• 1:01:03
  Said that Abraham could boast by his works, but not before God,
• 1:01:07
  so it had to be before men, so you can be.
• 1:01:11
  Justified before men by your. Works and you're justified
• 1:01:14
  before God by faith and there was no one there to see.
• 1:01:18
  Abraham doing this but he was justified before men, so God
• 1:01:23
  vindicated Abraham to. Himself so.
• 1:01:27
  There's two things. Going on in that verse so.
• 1:01:29
  Number one, This story was recorded.
• 1:01:33
  Keep in mind verse 23 just before you.
• 1:01:37
  Answer, 'cause I want this incorporated verse 23 of of
• 1:01:41
  James 2. Make sure you pay attention to
• 1:01:43
  that because it isn't talking about Abraham being justified
• 1:01:46
  before men. It's talking about him being
• 1:01:48
  justified before God, specifically in the context of
• 1:01:50
  this passage. So let's not skip over that.
• 1:01:53
  Yeah, Scripture was fulfilled, which says Abraham.
• 1:01:55
  Believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness and was
• 1:01:57
  called a friend of God. Yeah, so his faith, his.
• 1:02:00
  Faith alone in God. Vindicated him before God.
• 1:02:03
  Now the point I was trying to make is that his good deeds are
• 1:02:08
  recorded for all future generations to to read about and
• 1:02:12
  his good deeds vindicated himself before God too.
• 1:02:14
  He's like, wow, look what I did for God.
• 1:02:16
  You know, it could have been encouraging to Abraham too, even
• 1:02:18
  though no one else was there at the time.
• 1:02:20
  But you me praise. You know, all throughout time
• 1:02:23
  people been reading this story about Abraham so.
• 1:02:27
  Your argument is. That this thing where it in this
• 1:02:31
  passage is clearly talking about Abraham being justified before
• 1:02:34
  God. It's actually only about him
• 1:02:36
  being justified before men. No, I mean, we'll read the
• 1:02:40
  passage if we want. Maybe.
• 1:02:42
  We should read the passage. Maybe we should read it a
• 1:02:44
  second. James.
• 1:02:51
  Because it's. Interesting that Paul.
• 1:02:53
  Mentions the same story in Romans 4 and it completely
• 1:02:56
  destroys your point. Paul says it wasn't by his works
• 1:03:00
  well. Actually, it wasn't by works of
• 1:03:02
  the law. Again, you keep.
• 1:03:03
  It doesn't say that. You make it sound like.
• 1:03:06
  Well, that is actually the. Context of what Paul has been.
• 1:03:08
  No, no, no, no. Show me where it says of the
• 1:03:10
  law. In in Romans 4, tell me show me
• 1:03:12
  where it says works. This is this is the only thing
• 1:03:14
  that Paul. Was ever preaching about in
• 1:03:17
  terms of of not worrying about the works of the law saving and
• 1:03:21
  in the salvific system, where does it save the law sacrificial
• 1:03:24
  system? Well, do you want an answer?
• 1:03:25
  Or not, Kevin, you know. You can keep asking.
• 1:03:30
  The same question to. Keep me from answering it, but
• 1:03:32
  it's not. Just show me where it says of
• 1:03:33
  the law. If you can't, then.
• 1:03:35
  OK, just admit you can't show me Paul.
• 1:03:37
  Paul is Paul is clearly. Preaching throughout Romans and
• 1:03:41
  and particularly in Romans 4 against the idea of thinking
• 1:03:44
  that they can use the sacrificial system to be saved
• 1:03:47
  as works of the law and the that's the problem.
• 1:03:51
  The sacrificial system never justified anyone, OK?
• 1:03:55
  It didn't. It was part of the covenant for
• 1:03:57
  the protection of the tribe of Israel.
• 1:03:59
  OK, This is this is what it was all about.
• 1:04:01
  It wasn't about. And this is where again, Kevin,
• 1:04:04
  this is exegesis. This is showing that Paul is not
• 1:04:07
  somehow saying no good works at all when he's encouraging about
• 1:04:13
  the idea of the good works that showed faith.
• 1:04:15
  And so the same thing is happening in James.
• 1:04:17
  It also happens in in Hebrews. When we get Hebrews 11, is there
• 1:04:21
  a we don't get We don't get a bunch of lists of all the fuzzy
• 1:04:23
  thoughts everyone had. The problem is.
• 1:04:27
  In Romans 4, Paul doesn't mention the law.
• 1:04:29
  Here in Romans 4, he's just telling you that people are
• 1:04:31
  justified by faith. So when you say he's not
• 1:04:34
  justified? By works of the.
• 1:04:35
  Law that's adding to scripture. It's not there.
• 1:04:39
  Can you read it specifically for me?
• 1:04:42
  OK. This is what this is Romans 4,
• 1:04:45
  right? Yes, correct.
• 1:04:47
  What shall we? Say then the Abraham our father
• 1:04:50
  is pertaining to the flesh is found.
• 1:04:52
  For if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something
• 1:04:54
  to glory about, but not before God.
• 1:04:57
  For what says the scripture Abraham?
• 1:04:59
  Believed. God and was counted as
• 1:05:01
  righteous. Now to him that works is the
• 1:05:03
  reward, not counted of grace, but of debt.
• 1:05:06
  But to him that does not work, but believes on him who
• 1:05:09
  justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness,
• 1:05:14
  even as David also described the blessedness of the man unto whom
• 1:05:17
  God imputes righteousness without works saying.
• 1:05:22
  Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven.
• 1:05:24
  Whose? Sins are covered the the words
• 1:05:26
  of the law are not mentioned anywhere here.
• 1:05:29
  It just says works, period. Well, that's the issue Kevin is
• 1:05:33
  now you make. James a liar because James is
• 1:05:35
  again saying he's justified and his faith is completed through
• 1:05:38
  his works. You have to synergize.
• 1:05:41
  You don't get to take. That's why there's and use it to
• 1:05:43
  erase. Another passage.
• 1:05:45
  You have to synergize. You're just trying to make one
• 1:05:48
  passage. There's two justifications in
• 1:05:50
  the Book of James. And I tried to explain it to
• 1:05:52
  you, yeah, but you can't tell me how you choose.
• 1:05:54
  Which, and really, could you form that into a question?
• 1:05:59
  Because this is a cross exactly what that to be in in the form
• 1:06:02
  of a question. Go ahead.
• 1:06:04
  OK, what is the? Context that would tell you
• 1:06:07
  whether it's justified before men or justified before God in
• 1:06:11
  James 2 in terms of the works of faith, how do you.
• 1:06:16
  Tell what is the context that tells?
• 1:06:18
  You one way or the other. Do you what do you have
• 1:06:24
  specific? You want me to tell you where
• 1:06:26
  it's talking? You're the one that said.
• 1:06:28
  You're the one that said that it's talking about two kinds of
• 1:06:32
  justification. I deny the idea that any of this
• 1:06:35
  has anything to do with justification of men.
• 1:06:36
  I gave you the fact that the only other time justification
• 1:06:39
  before men is mentioned anywhere in scripture, it's mentioned
• 1:06:41
  negatively. OK, so, so I'm trying to figure
• 1:06:44
  out how are you figuring out what part of this when he says
• 1:06:49
  works without faith is dead? How are you getting from the
• 1:06:52
  context? What is the context that you're
• 1:06:54
  getting to figure out that this is talking about justification
• 1:06:56
  before men? OK.
• 1:07:02
  So in verse 24. James says see then how that by
• 1:07:07
  works a man is justified and not by faith only.
• 1:07:10
  Here is where he's talking about that your your works or what's
• 1:07:14
  justifying you. Read 23 before you just take 20.
• 1:07:17
  Four out read. Read 24 with 23 scripture was
• 1:07:21
  fulfilled which said Abraham. Believed God and it was imputed
• 1:07:25
  unto him for righteousness and was called a friend of God.
• 1:07:30
  So verse 23 is talking about. Faith alone.
• 1:07:32
  What I'm talking about, though, it isn't.
• 1:07:35
  None of this passes about. Faith alone, this whole thing is
• 1:07:38
  an example and it's let's let Kevin finish and then we're
• 1:07:41
  going to. Hand it out to Kevin for his
• 1:07:43
  final See what in verse 22 it. Says see how faith wrought with
• 1:07:48
  works and by works as faith was made mature.
• 1:07:51
  So the IT initial faith is saving is adding to it makes it
• 1:07:55
  mature. It's it's not a it's not a
• 1:07:58
  matter of your works is earning something or your you know your
• 1:08:02
  works are adding to your justification.
• 1:08:05
  Your justification can't be added to.
• 1:08:07
  All they can be added to is your your Christian experience, your
• 1:08:10
  walk. Do you know that that is real?
• 1:08:14
  Quick one last question, do you know that that word that you
• 1:08:16
  talk about your faith, be mature, is the same word that
• 1:08:20
  Jesus uses when it says be perfect as your heavenly Father
• 1:08:22
  is perfect? Yeah, but the context determines
• 1:08:25
  the meaning. And that and how do you decide?
• 1:08:29
  The context. Yeah, yeah, you just.
• 1:08:32
  Say that and you don't even. Have any answer?
• 1:08:34
  OK, let me let me explain. Because if you're going to say
• 1:08:37
  it's your works that that you have to have the works to have
• 1:08:42
  the to keep or maintain the justification, then it would
• 1:08:45
  have to be perfect works. And no human being does it
• 1:08:48
  perfectly. So it can't, it can't be that.
• 1:08:50
  It doesn't have to be perfect. It can be mature.
• 1:08:52
  Complete whole. So then you don't understand
• 1:08:56
  God. 'S standard.
• 1:08:58
  Perfection word. Thought indeed.
• 1:09:00
  We're going to move into now our final.
• 1:09:02
  Segment of cross examinable, then we'll head into the open
• 1:09:05
  discussion. Go ahead, Kevin, whenever you're
• 1:09:07
  ready, OK? The second cross exam by the way
• 1:09:14
  of this was. A terrible idea we should just
• 1:09:16
  moved into conversation honestly, the second cross
• 1:09:18
  examination brutal because we cover so much with the first one
• 1:09:21
  but anyway let's let's do it yeah I'm I'm I'm okay with that
• 1:09:24
  you want to go to. Cross exam?
• 1:09:25
  No, I mean I no, I want you to get the chance.
• 1:09:27
  To do your thing, I want you to get the chance to to interrogate
• 1:09:30
  me. It's fine.
• 1:09:31
  I'm not. I'm not complaining.
• 1:09:32
  I'm just saying for future reference, probably.
• 1:09:34
  Maybe. Yeah, that's fine.
• 1:09:36
  I think we can. Implement that in the future,
• 1:09:37
  but go ahead, Kevin. Since we agreed to this format,
• 1:09:40
  we want you to do your final. Yeah, I don't want to cut out
• 1:09:42
  his window like. You know, yeah.
• 1:09:46
  So how do you reconcile? Ephesians 28 and 9, with your
• 1:09:50
  belief that our ongoing works have to contribute to our
• 1:09:52
  justification. OK, well you read it or I'll.
• 1:09:55
  Pull it up in a second, whichever you want, OK?
• 1:10:00
  For by. Grace, have you been saved
• 1:10:02
  through? Faith and this is not of your
• 1:10:04
  own doing, it is the gift of God and not of your works.
• 1:10:06
  So no one can boast, right? Your position of.
• 1:10:11
  Salvation is not something that people can generally boast over.
• 1:10:15
  I've answered this. This will now be the third time
• 1:10:18
  that this is about God being the prime mover of salvation, that
• 1:10:21
  no one can claim that they were good enough to earn salvation,
• 1:10:24
  that the offer of salvation came to them because they were so
• 1:10:26
  good. You know, this is correcting a
• 1:10:29
  very arrogant mindset that people that were in particularly
• 1:10:32
  in the Old covenant, that believe that they were somehow
• 1:10:35
  righteous by the standards of the law, that they could keep
• 1:10:39
  and couldn't keep perfectly, but had convinced themselves that
• 1:10:42
  they were righteous in that sense.
• 1:10:44
  And there's a correction to this of realizing, no, it's not
• 1:10:47
  because the Jews were so great or because people are so
• 1:10:50
  wonderful or because humanity is so awesome.
• 1:10:52
  It's only by grace. So don't be arrogant and don't
• 1:10:55
  boast because you wouldn't be in this position unless God loved
• 1:10:58
  you first. Smokey, would it be fair if I.
• 1:11:01
  Said that your position is that your works maintain your
• 1:11:04
  justification. Would you agree to that?
• 1:11:08
  I guess it's a little sloppy, but that's fine.
• 1:11:10
  I'll take. It OK, do you see how scripture?
• 1:11:13
  Is in conflict with that idea though, like Titus 3/5 for
• 1:11:17
  example. What is it Titus 3/5 for?
• 1:11:20
  Example Ephesians. Two, like we just read that it
• 1:11:23
  can't be of works, so when I read it's not of works, I would
• 1:11:27
  also entail that means it's not maintained by works either.
• 1:11:30
  It's we're kind of hopscotching everywhere, so I need chance.
• 1:11:32
  To actually pull these up, yeah, sure, Titus.
• 1:11:35
  Go ahead. Titus 3/5.
• 1:11:36
  Go ahead, if you want, I can pull up on my.
• 1:11:39
  Screen too, if that would make any things easier.
• 1:11:41
  Let me just whatever, yeah. And again, yeah, Kevin, again,
• 1:11:45
  that's that's exactly, it's just going to cause me to reiterate
• 1:11:47
  my same point now for the 4th time.
• 1:11:49
  This is and in fact, this, this to me is even better
• 1:11:52
  clarification of the point that I'm making.
• 1:11:54
  Let's see, was it ESV? He saved us not because of works
• 1:11:58
  done by us again, nothing that made us so great to be valued by
• 1:12:03
  him that it was worth sending his son, but according to his
• 1:12:06
  own mercy by the washing and of regeneration and renewal of the
• 1:12:11
  Holy Spirit. So this is this is again is this
• 1:12:15
  idea that God is acting out through grace unmerited favor.
• 1:12:20
  There's nothing so great about humanity to merit the favor of
• 1:12:24
  God to to have salvation be extended to it.
• 1:12:27
  So Smokey. I want to know though so if you
• 1:12:29
  have. To work to keep or maintain your
• 1:12:34
  justification? How is that not earning it well
• 1:12:38
  and. Again, it's the same thing I
• 1:12:39
  presented. To you, which we didn't get to
• 1:12:41
  really talk about in my opening, which which was the point I made
• 1:12:45
  about this this idea of belief. Ask the question one more time.
• 1:12:48
  I'll make sure I I got it correctly.
• 1:12:50
  OK, so if you're telling me that.
• 1:12:52
  We have to keep our justification, right?
• 1:12:56
  OK, by ongoingly doing works, you know maintaining it.
• 1:13:00
  How is that not earning it? Well, well, it.
• 1:13:04
  Isn't you're not. Earning it because that's not
• 1:13:06
  what, that's not what instantiates it.
• 1:13:08
  That's not what gets it going. That's what completes it.
• 1:13:11
  It's not. It's not.
• 1:13:13
  It's prime motion. It's nothing.
• 1:13:15
  My, my good works. If I have works without faith,
• 1:13:20
  it doesn't mean anything. Like there's no, there's no
• 1:13:23
  substance to it. There's nothing behind it.
• 1:13:25
  I think that's what James 2 is really about.
• 1:13:27
  It's like you can't show someone good works without faith.
• 1:13:31
  It's not, it doesn't exist. It's not something you can just
• 1:13:34
  manifest. You're not hearing yourself.
• 1:13:37
  I think you're listen if if it's up to you, right?
• 1:13:42
  If you have to maintain your justification there, that is no
• 1:13:45
  different than saying I'm earning my, I have to commit, I
• 1:13:48
  have to commit if you fail. If you fail to.
• 1:13:51
  Do these things, then you no longer have the justification.
• 1:13:54
  But after my original opening, Kevin, you can't have.
• 1:13:56
  It both ways. You can't have it where the
• 1:13:58
  initial belief isn't a work and then continuing to believe is
• 1:14:02
  OK, you got to pick a lane. OK, and you bounce back and
• 1:14:06
  forth with this. Can you answer the question?
• 1:14:08
  Stop pontificating. How I just did?
• 1:14:11
  I just did. No, no.
• 1:14:12
  You're not. You're dancing because you're.
• 1:14:14
  Contradicting yourself and you're not even realizing it.
• 1:14:16
  You're saying I'm not earning my salvation, but you're saying I
• 1:14:20
  have to maintain it or else I lose it.
• 1:14:22
  How is that any different than earning it?
• 1:14:24
  I'm not earning it. It's it's on.
• 1:14:26
  Offer to me. It's on offer to me prior to
• 1:14:28
  anything I chose to do or chose to accept.
• 1:14:31
  It doesn't my my choice to accept or not does not change
• 1:14:35
  the static existence of the gospel or the offer of
• 1:14:37
  salvation. It is on offer and what I have
• 1:14:40
  to do is I have to accept it. You say you don't even have to
• 1:14:43
  do that, it seems, because that's something you have to do
• 1:14:46
  the topic and you can't do anything.
• 1:14:48
  Right. Hang on, Anne.
• 1:14:50
  I'm not talking about the. Initial, you know, belief in the
• 1:14:53
  offer of salvation. I'm talking about once you've
• 1:14:55
  believed, now you're saying you have to maintain it or else you,
• 1:14:59
  you lose the justification. You have to continue to believe,
• 1:15:01
  right. So my.
• 1:15:02
  Argument is is that. If it's up to you to maintain
• 1:15:05
  the justification, that's the same thing as earning it because
• 1:15:10
  Scripture. Gives us a true dichotomy It's.
• 1:15:12
  Either all of grace or it's all of works.
• 1:15:13
  There's no. It would be clear that it's not
• 1:15:16
  because. That would be only true, Kevin,
• 1:15:18
  if I was literally doing it under my own power.
• 1:15:20
  I'm doing it in synergy, working with the Holy Spirit via faith.
• 1:15:26
  So no, your your point is moot and nonsensical.
• 1:15:29
  This is not me earning my salvation.
• 1:15:31
  This is not me doing work works absent of faith thinking I'm
• 1:15:35
  doing things that will get me into heaven.
• 1:15:38
  The things I am doing are a sign and seal of my faith.
• 1:15:42
  And again, like in Philippians 2.
• 1:15:48
  So this is what is showing that. I'm saved.
• 1:15:51
  Do you get that OK? Well, it's interesting you bring
• 1:15:55
  up. Philippians 2 because
• 1:15:56
  Philippians 2 it says it is God that brings to completion what
• 1:15:59
  He began. So it's not you completing it,
• 1:16:02
  it's God. Yeah, if you allow Him and if
• 1:16:03
  you resist the holy. Spirit, he won't be able to say
• 1:16:05
  that I believe you can resist the are you going back that you
• 1:16:08
  can't resist the Holy Spirit Now are you mana just no, I'm saying
• 1:16:11
  in the book of Philippians. In chapter 2, it does not say
• 1:16:16
  anything about if you allow God this or if you continue in that.
• 1:16:20
  It just simply States and I will quote for it is.
• 1:16:25
  God that. Works in you both to.
• 1:16:26
  Will and to do of his good pleasure.
• 1:16:29
  Then it goes on to say in Philippians 1/6 he says being
• 1:16:35
  confident of this very thing, he which has begun the good work in
• 1:16:39
  you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ, so
• 1:16:44
  it. Is God that started?
• 1:16:46
  It so after you believe God gives you the new heart, he
• 1:16:50
  makes you a member of the. Family and from that.
• 1:16:52
  Point forward, he promises. You make it to the day of
• 1:16:54
  redemption. Ephesians 113 You're sealed unto
• 1:16:57
  that day. Ephesians 4.
• 1:16:59
  So if you're sealed until that day, where's the possibility of
• 1:17:03
  losing it? Where is it?
• 1:17:09
  I I I I I I didn't. Catch where the question was in
• 1:17:13
  all of this 'cause I I was giving the answer and then you
• 1:17:16
  diatribe for a bit and then got off of the question and they
• 1:17:19
  gave a completely different question.
• 1:17:20
  So I need a little clarification here.
• 1:17:22
  OK, so Philippians 1/6. It says, being confident of this
• 1:17:26
  very thing, that he which has begun the good work in you will
• 1:17:30
  bring it to completion of the day of Jesus Christ.
• 1:17:33
  Then Ephesians 113 and Ephesians 4, it says that you are sealed
• 1:17:36
  with the Holy Spirit to make it to the day of redemption.
• 1:17:39
  So there's where is this room in between the day you get saved to
• 1:17:43
  the day Christ returns. This possibility of falling away
• 1:17:45
  if this the Holy Spirit's given so that you make it to the day
• 1:17:49
  of redemption. Because I'm not a monarchist
• 1:17:52
  Calvinist. Like you that believes I can't
• 1:17:54
  resist the Holy Spirit, I can resist the Holy Spirit.
• 1:17:57
  And if I can resist this, it, it literally isn't.
• 1:18:02
  What you just presented was pure monarchism.
• 1:18:05
  That you cannot resist the Holy Spirit, that he's just gonna do
• 1:18:07
  it. You go back and forth on this
• 1:18:10
  all the time. You are the most frustrating
• 1:18:12
  person to talk to 'cause you can't even work out your own
• 1:18:16
  belief. This guy you're, you're a closet
• 1:18:18
  Calvinist. Man.
• 1:18:19
  So when did I say you can't you present these?
• 1:18:21
  Views that that like well, oh, OK.
• 1:18:24
  So he's gonna work it out in me. Can I resist it?
• 1:18:26
  Yes. Then.
• 1:18:29
  Then OK then. Then your whole point is moot
• 1:18:32
  and invalid because now. No, no, no, because the human,
• 1:18:35
  the thing that seals me crazy, is going to buy moot.
• 1:18:38
  Yeah, I would like Kevin go to your.
• 1:18:40
  Question. Go ahead, Kevin.
• 1:18:41
  The thing is that the human. The human.
• 1:18:44
  Psyche is very complicated, Smokey.
• 1:18:46
  So here's the thing, you can Can you resist?
• 1:18:50
  God. Yes, but.
• 1:18:52
  As a Christian can. You completely resist him all
• 1:18:55
  the way across the board. Well, no, God makes some
• 1:18:58
  progress at some point somewhere in there.
• 1:19:01
  I don't think it's you can just completely reject God.
• 1:19:05
  OK. And I know you don't like that.
• 1:19:06
  And you're like, wow, it's either all or nothing.
• 1:19:08
  Well, no, I think the human psyche is more complicated than
• 1:19:10
  that. I mean, 'cause I mean, are you
• 1:19:14
  going to accuse like the scripture of being weird like
• 1:19:18
  that? Like for example, what is it?
• 1:19:19
  Matthew, Matthew 24. Let's let's go to Matthew 24
• 1:19:22
  real quick. So Matthew 24 verse 24 says, For
• 1:19:27
  there shall arise. False Christs.
• 1:19:30
  And false prophets and show great signs and wonders and so
• 1:19:32
  much that if it were possible they would deceive the very
• 1:19:36
  elect implying it's not possible.
• 1:19:38
  Smokey is God doing something to their free will so that they
• 1:19:41
  can't be deceived by by false Christs.
• 1:19:43
  What's what's going on here? Does does God take away our
• 1:19:46
  autonomy or is there is it more complicated than you're making
• 1:19:49
  it out? It is way more complicated than
• 1:19:51
  you're making. It out God has the ability to
• 1:19:54
  know who makes it to the end so he knows who's elect and he's
• 1:19:58
  the only one that can know that so that you're you're adding
• 1:20:02
  this weird temporal logic to God in order to make this challenge.
• 1:20:06
  I don't understand Wait wait wait wait based off what you.
• 1:20:08
  Just said, are you saying it's impossible for the elect to be
• 1:20:10
  deceived by false prophets? Yes, because they are.
• 1:20:13
  Chosen. Oh, you're a Calvinist?
• 1:20:15
  Smoker, you're a Calvinist. I mean.
• 1:20:19
  When I say elect, I mean God, no.
• 1:20:21
  That's not Calvinism. And when I say the idea that he
• 1:20:23
  knows who the elect are, that's not specifically monarchistic
• 1:20:27
  because you can know who made the choices to accept him.
• 1:20:33
  We're gonna we're gonna head into the just now the free
• 1:20:35
  flowing discussion. Go ahead.
• 1:20:37
  We're just gonna keep it going. Whatever you guys just left off
• 1:20:39
  with, go ahead. Point to try and prove
• 1:20:40
  Calvinism. Man, you don't know.
• 1:20:42
  Anything. No, I'm trying to show that by
• 1:20:43
  your own. Standard that you're putting me
• 1:20:45
  to accuse me of Calvinism, I can slaughter right back.
• 1:20:47
  On you, man. No, man.
• 1:20:49
  You know what if we can resist the?
• 1:20:51
  Holy Spirit, then we can resist salvation and then we can lose
• 1:20:53
  our salvation. So it's just that's under the
• 1:20:55
  assumption. Listen.
• 1:20:57
  You clearly don't understand what salvation is.
• 1:21:00
  It's a spiritual rebirth if God has.
• 1:21:04
  Bestowed on you a new heart. How on earth can you?
• 1:21:08
  And I can't resist. Yeah, it's a new heart.
• 1:21:10
  I can't resist, Right? Modern.
• 1:21:11
  No. He's changed who you are, so I
• 1:21:15
  have to go along. With it I can't resist.
• 1:21:16
  Right, shut up. Salvation is not just a
• 1:21:18
  possession. It is who you are that is the
• 1:21:21
  new life. Yeah, you can.
• 1:21:22
  Laugh. You clearly it is funny, man.
• 1:21:24
  You. You just.
• 1:21:25
  You know what you hate? The fact that you you need
• 1:21:28
  monitorgism to make your shit make sense.
• 1:21:30
  No, shut up. That's that's garbage.
• 1:21:33
  Yeah. What does what does it mean to
• 1:21:34
  be born again? Smokey, can you, can you tell me
• 1:21:36
  what do you think that means? Well, that's to have the.
• 1:21:39
  Renewing of your. Mind of metanoia, a changing of
• 1:21:42
  your directive towards God, a recognition of God of who he is,
• 1:21:46
  an acceptance of who He is and then a submission to Him and at
• 1:21:49
  that point I believe that you undergo a transition to be born
• 1:21:53
  again in the spirit and the state of acceptance.
• 1:21:56
  It's not a guarantee you'll stay there, but at least it's the
• 1:22:00
  beginning. OK, so so when does so we're in
• 1:22:03
  the? Sea.
• 1:22:03
  I'll, I'll ask questions. So we're in the sea.
• 1:22:08
  They believed, right? They believed.
• 1:22:09
  No, no. I'm asking when does the new
• 1:22:11
  birth occur? When does it happen?
• 1:22:14
  Well, I well. I mean, I, I, I don't know.
• 1:22:16
  Especially for each person, it could be when they do a prayer,
• 1:22:20
  it could be when they go up and talk to a pastor and accept in
• 1:22:23
  their heart, I don't know what you want, man.
• 1:22:25
  What? What are you?
• 1:22:25
  I'm trying to get an OK well according.
• 1:22:28
  To Scripture says having been justified by faith.
• 1:22:31
  So the justification the new birth occurs once you've
• 1:22:34
  believed right. So that's when you're you
• 1:22:36
  receive this new heart, you did the Holy Spirit according to
• 1:22:39
  Ezekiel 36. Jesus Christ the.
• 1:22:43
  And his promises. So so believe.
• 1:22:47
  That I have eternal. Life, no matter what, believe
• 1:22:49
  that he came and he died. But just basically believe the
• 1:22:51
  gospel, right? Yeah, you, you, you believe the
• 1:22:54
  gospel. And.
• 1:22:55
  You trust him, you're you trust him no matter what will be.
• 1:22:59
  Yeah. I'm not going to.
• 1:23:01
  I'm not going to try to take. Over the question and answer,
• 1:23:03
  but I yeah as. I said before.
• 1:23:06
  This is the open discussion, anyone?
• 1:23:08
  That's both sides of the open discussion, yes.
• 1:23:11
  Yes. See 'cause I'm just.
• 1:23:14
  I'm just asking these questions to.
• 1:23:15
  Prod because I want, I'm just trying to grasp what you think
• 1:23:18
  the new birth is, because I think if we have two different
• 1:23:22
  ideas of what it means to be born again, we're bringing up
• 1:23:24
  points. We're going to be talking past
• 1:23:25
  each other, right? So I just want to make sure I,
• 1:23:28
  I'm coming at where I, I can get where you're coming from.
• 1:23:30
  Like when are we born again? And what does that mean to you?
• 1:23:35
  To me. That is the.
• 1:23:36
  Acceptance of the truth of the gospel and the entailments
• 1:23:41
  therein, which is again the following of the teachings of
• 1:23:46
  Christ. I cannot be defined as a saved
• 1:23:50
  person or a sheep unless I'm following him.
• 1:23:54
  It's clearly in John 10, the first passage you love a lot,
• 1:23:58
  that very clearly the the only one that fits the definition of
• 1:24:02
  who is a sheep and who actually, you know, is in the hand of the
• 1:24:07
  Father that can't be plucked out, is someone who believes in
• 1:24:10
  him, who follows him, follows like does what he says like it's
• 1:24:14
  what following is. So clearly that's an action,
• 1:24:17
  something you have to do. And that's what defines you as a
• 1:24:20
  sheep. That's what defines you as
• 1:24:21
  saved. So I don't see how you think you
• 1:24:23
  can separate the two, that the following is somehow inessential
• 1:24:28
  to you being defined as a sheep. OK.
• 1:24:33
  So I would disagree I. Think the new birth is a change
• 1:24:37
  of nature? It's God granting you a new
• 1:24:41
  heart with new desires. It's God doing an inward change.
• 1:24:46
  It's it's spiritual. But about what you said about
• 1:24:50
  the sheep, right? Are you aware that there are
• 1:24:53
  other passages in the New Testament that use follow
• 1:24:57
  interchangeably with belief? Yeah.
• 1:25:01
  And in fact, actually that's. More of a problem for you than
• 1:25:04
  it is for me. Because again, this idea of the
• 1:25:08
  verb form to believe is an action.
• 1:25:11
  It's something you do. You keep telling me it's not
• 1:25:14
  something you do, but it's literally a verb.
• 1:25:16
  OK, It's going to be fair now, unless you wanna.
• 1:25:20
  Say. Unless you wanna say God is the
• 1:25:23
  one doing it and embrace Calvinism again, then you have
• 1:25:27
  to admit the fact that it's something you are doing.
• 1:25:31
  OK, I want to. Clarify and I think I've.
• 1:25:33
  Made this clarification to you, but maybe you didn't hear it.
• 1:25:35
  I don't know. I'd never said the initial
• 1:25:37
  belief a doing. Let me just ask you something is
• 1:25:39
  initial. Belief A let me just tell you
• 1:25:41
  have to do to be saved is initial.
• 1:25:42
  Let me tell you, is initial belief A doing?
• 1:25:46
  Have to be. Saved.
• 1:25:47
  If you had shut up, I'll answer. Faith is something you have to
• 1:25:50
  do, but scripture does not consider it a good work good
• 1:25:55
  then continuing to believe. Isn't a good work under your
• 1:25:58
  paradigm and I it's OK with me saying I didn't say Continuing
• 1:26:01
  to believe is. So you have to keep believing
• 1:26:03
  and. That's not a good work.
• 1:26:05
  So you have so I can say. You have.
• 1:26:07
  To keep believing and you can't call that a good work because
• 1:26:10
  it's not a work. But here here's the problem.
• 1:26:12
  The belief isn't a work. This.
• 1:26:13
  Is the problem with that because?
• 1:26:14
  You guys are double. Minded on that so they're
• 1:26:16
  they'll they'll claim you are look look shut up you're the one
• 1:26:21
  trying to make it fit both ways that.
• 1:26:23
  Continuing to leave is the work you're rejecting, scumbag.
• 1:26:25
  That's you, you say. Let's reel it back and.
• 1:26:29
  Let's reel it back. In.
• 1:26:30
  Like, well, we'll hand it off to Kevin since she was trying to
• 1:26:34
  finish something. Go ahead, Kevin.
• 1:26:36
  Yeah. So this is Smokey's whole
• 1:26:37
  shtick. Right.
• 1:26:39
  Ah, faith is something good you're now and so therefore you
• 1:26:42
  believe and you save yourself by believing it's a good work.
• 1:26:45
  Well, the Scripture doesn't consider faith a work.
• 1:26:47
  First of all, it is something you do, but it's not considered
• 1:26:50
  a good work. And yes, if his position is
• 1:26:52
  that, well, I just have an ongoing faith and I'm saved.
• 1:26:56
  OK. But that's not what these people
• 1:26:58
  do. They lie.
• 1:26:59
  They say, oh, I believe as long as you have faith in Christ,
• 1:27:01
  you're saved. That's not true.
• 1:27:02
  They also add this behavior stuff to it.
• 1:27:04
  Well, if you go out, you know, if you do this, if you commit
• 1:27:06
  adultery or if you got drunk over here, you know, oh, you
• 1:27:09
  lost yourself. Wait a minute.
• 1:27:10
  I thought it was just about your faith.
• 1:27:11
  Now you're adding obedience. It works.
• 1:27:13
  That's why these people are double minded about this.
• 1:27:15
  And Smokey would do that, wouldn't you, Smokey?
• 1:27:17
  Oh, if you go out in a bang of water, you're going to lose your
• 1:27:19
  salvation. Actually, was was really the
• 1:27:20
  main thing to just. Make the core point.
• 1:27:22
  I would hold that there's more to be done.
• 1:27:25
  Thank you. So you just refuted.
• 1:27:27
  Yourself that you do not believe.
• 1:27:29
  It's ongoing faith. You believe me.
• 1:27:30
  Faithfulness. Can you let me finish before?
• 1:27:33
  Go ahead. Just wanted to hammer for the
• 1:27:37
  audience that you put your foot in your mouth.
• 1:27:38
  Go. Ahead.
• 1:27:39
  I didn't, but you didn't. But you.
• 1:27:41
  Wouldn't let me finish so that you could know that, could you?
• 1:27:44
  Oh, I know it. Go ahead.
• 1:27:46
  No. You get.
• 1:27:46
  Well, how would you know that if?
• 1:27:47
  You wouldn't let me finish. So what was what was the point?
• 1:27:49
  Take your foot out of your mouth and speak.
• 1:27:51
  Go for it. No.
• 1:27:52
  What was the point again, Kevin? Because now.
• 1:27:54
  You had to just interrupt my train of thought.
• 1:27:56
  The point was you were accusing me of making.
• 1:27:58
  An ongoing faith, you asked, So go ahead, reiterate.
• 1:28:04
  Reiterate you were accusing me of saying.
• 1:28:06
  If you have an ongoing. Faith, that's a work.
• 1:28:09
  You said that. You said.
• 1:28:11
  That no, I said. No my.
• 1:28:14
  Point was, Kevin, if you can. Concede.
• 1:28:16
  My point was Kevin, if you can concede that there is something
• 1:28:20
  you have to do, including the continuing to believe, then your
• 1:28:24
  point is moot and apostasy applies.
• 1:28:26
  And apostasy is a sin that casts you out and makes you lose your
• 1:28:29
  salvation, just like rejecting the Holy Spirit and rejecting
• 1:28:34
  His work. Let's go with that.
• 1:28:36
  Let's go with this in your. Salvation breaking the seal.
• 1:28:38
  By which you are sealed and which which are you seeing
• 1:28:40
  breaking the seal Spirit? Wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 1:28:44
  Can I finish please? No, No you can't.
• 1:28:47
  I got your. Point let's let's try to set the
• 1:28:49
  overtalk, ladies. Person I'll take a I'll take a 5
• 1:28:52
  minute break and he can just. Run his mouth because he doesn't
• 1:28:54
  want me to talk. So I'll tell you how about one
• 1:28:56
  point at a time, since he wants to be a.
• 1:28:57
  Clown you brought up. Apostasy you brought up.
• 1:29:00
  Breaking this. We got a, we got a reel this
• 1:29:05
  back in. In fact, I wouldn't let Smokey
• 1:29:07
  where the pitch of the Smokey is getting pissed because I'm not
• 1:29:09
  letting you steamroll. That's why you're getting
• 1:29:11
  pitched. You're literally just not
• 1:29:12
  letting me talk at. All listen, you brought up, you
• 1:29:15
  brought. Up and you brought up.
• 1:29:18
  Breaking the seal Let's. Deal with those one point at a
• 1:29:21
  time. You know, let's, let's smoke.
• 1:29:25
  No smoke, we're going. To hand it to you, get your
• 1:29:27
  point. Out or I'll even put them on me
• 1:29:28
  on the feet if if needs be. Go ahead.
• 1:29:31
  OK, so it doesn't do anything to destroy.
• 1:29:33
  My my point, Kev. And now you keep running and I
• 1:29:36
  keep forgetting the point, keep escaping.
• 1:29:38
  It doesn't. It doesn't actually defeat the
• 1:29:40
  point at all, God damn it. And it won't even let.
• 1:29:43
  Me talk to actually get it out. So I can keep my point clear,
• 1:29:45
  this is, this is extremely frustrating.
• 1:29:47
  Your conduct is absolutely ridiculous, Kev.
• 1:29:50
  I mean you ask a question you don't want an answer and then
• 1:29:52
  you completely get me sidetracked and not answer.
• 1:29:55
  Praise. Can you help me with?
• 1:29:56
  This Where were we at with this? Can you?
• 1:29:57
  Help me. You brought up apostasy, and you
• 1:30:00
  brought. Up breaking the seal.
• 1:30:02
  OK, breaking the seal of the Holy.
• 1:30:04
  Spirit which you. Started laughing.
• 1:30:05
  Seal. OK, well, seals can be broken.
• 1:30:09
  OK, that's in fact. In fact, in the context of the
• 1:30:11
  ancient Near East, the idea of a seal is it is it can be broken.
• 1:30:15
  Certainly. That's certainly how everyone
• 1:30:16
  understood the seal to be, and the seal that is.
• 1:30:19
  On you there's. There's nothing.
• 1:30:20
  You have to extrapolate an ICG, the idea that the seal cannot be
• 1:30:23
  broken. So the seal is the Holy Spirit.
• 1:30:25
  Now, if you can reject the Holy Spirit, if you can grieve the
• 1:30:28
  Holy Spirit, if you can vex the Holy Spirit, turn this Holy
• 1:30:31
  Spirit into your enemy. And it says in the Old
• 1:30:33
  Testament, which passed to Isaiah 53, I think if you can
• 1:30:37
  vex and turn against the Holy Spirit, that's the problem,
• 1:30:40
  because now you are invalidating the state, the thing that gives
• 1:30:43
  you the seal, that gives you salvation.
• 1:30:46
  You're sealed by the Holy Spirit and you reject the Holy Spirit.
• 1:30:48
  How can you be saved? You don't have the seal.
• 1:30:51
  That's no. I did.
• 1:30:53
  Not put my foot in my mouth. In fact, if you let me clarify,
• 1:30:56
  this would have been over about 5 minutes earlier and real quick
• 1:31:00
  smoke now. You answer you.
• 1:31:02
  Answer like you're so smart and you know I put my.
• 1:31:04
  Foot in my mouth and now point it out to me.
• 1:31:06
  How's your toes taste? Real no real quick Smokey your
• 1:31:09
  mic has. Changed.
• 1:31:11
  It sounds like you're away from your you.
• 1:31:13
  Could you fix your mic? It sounds like it.
• 1:31:15
  OK, so addressing the. The breaking of the the seal
• 1:31:19
  argument, right. So it is true in in the ancient
• 1:31:21
  Near East that that, you know, people would seal envelopes
• 1:31:24
  their their parchits with wax. You know, they put like candle
• 1:31:28
  wax and they press it with a seal like a why would they do
• 1:31:30
  that? And.
• 1:31:32
  So The thing is. If a, a king or someone of
• 1:31:35
  royalty would do that, if someone were to break this seal
• 1:31:39
  open, there was severe punishment, usually a death
• 1:31:43
  penalty. Yeah, associated with that.
• 1:31:46
  Maybe a? Loss of salvation.
• 1:31:47
  Or something maybe? Well, now here's the problem
• 1:31:50
  with that. Because.
• 1:31:51
  You're implying that you're able to break God.
• 1:31:53
  You're implying that you can't break the.
• 1:31:55
  Spirit of God, you're implying that you can't.
• 1:31:57
  Break the seal of the Holy. Spirit, when you can reject the
• 1:31:59
  Holy Spirit and you admit that, how can you break that?
• 1:32:02
  You can reject the Holy Spirit. You can break.
• 1:32:03
  The seal buddy. So you need to pick a lane.
• 1:32:06
  Well you need to show me in scripture where we.
• 1:32:08
  Can break God? How can we break this seal of
• 1:32:10
  promise? We can grieve the Holy Spirit.
• 1:32:12
  We can reject the holy. Spirit according to We can
• 1:32:14
  resist the Holy Spirit, we can resist sanctification according
• 1:32:18
  to grieve Ephesians. Unless you're going back.
• 1:32:20
  On it again, I'm not now I'm response.
• 1:32:21
  See, now you're doing what you accused.
• 1:32:22
  Me of In the book of Ephesians it says that the Holy Spirit is
• 1:32:27
  given as the seal, as a promise, as a down payment, as a
• 1:32:32
  guarantee that you make it to. The day of redemption.
• 1:32:37
  That's what a earnest money is. Do you know?
• 1:32:38
  What a earnest money is. It's a earnest money.
• 1:32:40
  Is the money that's given is a promise to complete the payment.
• 1:32:44
  No, it's a promise. Right, so God's.
• 1:32:46
  Given. Well, no.
• 1:32:47
  Well, it's a down. Payment It's a.
• 1:32:48
  Pledge it's a. Pledge that's a down payment and
• 1:32:52
  yeah, it's a it's a pledge that you're gonna complete the.
• 1:32:54
  Payment right? And you can choose not to,
• 1:32:56
  right? You can choose not to.
• 1:32:58
  Is God going to choose not to? Holy Spirit and.
• 1:33:00
  Not complete and go to the end, no.
• 1:33:02
  No, we can tamper with the seal. No, No, no, no, No, No.
• 1:33:05
  No spirit. You're missing it.
• 1:33:06
  It's the. Seal and then you can mess it
• 1:33:08
  up. Yes, God is the one that made
• 1:33:10
  the down payment, not the human. In in Ephesians, you are sealed
• 1:33:13
  with the Holy Spirit. It is God that finishes the
• 1:33:16
  payment. God's the one that made the down
• 1:33:18
  payment. You God's the one that finishes
• 1:33:20
  the payment. It has nothing to do with you.
• 1:33:23
  You have to believe first. So you're putting a down.
• 1:33:25
  And then you have to be. Believing, which you seemed
• 1:33:27
  already fine with. Before wait wait, so in.
• 1:33:31
  Ephesians where? It talks about the earnest who?
• 1:33:33
  Who is the one putting the earnest down payment?
• 1:33:35
  Is that you or God in that verse the the down?
• 1:33:39
  Payment of the Holy Spirit. Well, God sends.
• 1:33:43
  The Holy Spirit to those. Who?
• 1:33:45
  What so? Is the answer God or is it man?
• 1:33:49
  Which one? God puts the well well.
• 1:33:52
  I don't know how you're going to twist it.
• 1:33:54
  God puts the God sends the Holy Spirit.
• 1:33:56
  I'll repeat it again. God sends the Holy Spirit to
• 1:33:59
  those who what believe through those.
• 1:34:03
  Who commit to those who who? Acknowledge God who He is and
• 1:34:07
  submit to Him. That's who gets the Holy Spirit
• 1:34:11
  and that is not to me. Unless you again want to embrace
• 1:34:14
  pure monarchism, that is not something that can be completely
• 1:34:19
  irrevoked. You can, you can tamper with the
• 1:34:22
  seal. The seal is set there.
• 1:34:24
  But clearly we are warned to not grieve the Holy Spirit that we
• 1:34:28
  can, that we can damage our fellowship and relationship with
• 1:34:31
  the Holy Spirit and even correct him.
• 1:34:32
  And he is our seal. So clearly we can tamper with
• 1:34:35
  the seal. Kevin.
• 1:34:35
  So I don't know where you're getting this idea that seal is
• 1:34:38
  so invincible when seals are and can be broken, but God can't.
• 1:34:43
  He's all powerful. You cannot break God then.
• 1:34:46
  Well, actually. Actually with with constant
• 1:34:49
  reproofs, you can be broken. It's Proverbs 29 one, if you
• 1:34:52
  stay stiff necked, even reproof, you can be broken where there's
• 1:34:55
  no remedy. No, no, no.
• 1:34:57
  That's the individual I'm talking about God.
• 1:34:58
  Himself, the seal is God. In this case, you're arguing
• 1:35:01
  that God himself can be broken, right?
• 1:35:04
  That's well, no, I'm saying the seal, which is.
• 1:35:06
  The presence of the Holy Spirit in you can be broken.
• 1:35:09
  Yes, the Spirit can be vexed and grieved and pushed away and
• 1:35:13
  rejected, and you can apostasize.
• 1:35:16
  And if you do that, you no longer have the seal.
• 1:35:19
  All right, let's deal with that praise.
• 1:35:20
  Can you put Ephesians? 4 on the board please.
• 1:35:23
  Sure. I want to go back by the way I'm
• 1:35:27
  going to. Entertain this for a minute, but
• 1:35:29
  really at at a for in a few more minutes.
• 1:35:30
  I'm going to think he's running from some of my big points.
• 1:35:33
  I still haven't gotten the answers to you from my opening,
• 1:35:36
  so I'll entertain this for a little bit, but I'd like this to
• 1:35:38
  switch where it's not just him. Yeah, you're getting
• 1:35:40
  steamrolled, dude, chill. Yeah, dude, you don't.
• 1:35:44
  You don't have to posture. Like that, I'm literally just
• 1:35:46
  asking for an opportunity for me to be the one right that's
• 1:35:49
  holding you to. I don't think that's unfair for
• 1:35:51
  me to request. I don't care.
• 1:35:53
  That's fine. I'll answer all of your.
• 1:35:54
  Objections, man, that's fine. Well, you haven't really done a
• 1:35:57
  good job so far, but whatever. I think I have, but let's
• 1:36:00
  continue on, shall we? All right, so praise, I want you
• 1:36:03
  to go down to verse 30. Notice how what it says.
• 1:36:11
  Here, Smokey and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye
• 1:36:16
  are sealed until the day of redemption.
• 1:36:20
  So even if these are people, if he's commanding, hey, don't
• 1:36:23
  grieve the Holy Spirit which you are sealed until the day of
• 1:36:25
  redemption. So even if they grieve them,
• 1:36:27
  they're still sealed till the day of redemption.
• 1:36:29
  Don't you see that here? Why would we need to be warned?
• 1:36:32
  To not grieve them because there's punishments that come
• 1:36:35
  for doing that. I mean, why would you want to?
• 1:36:37
  But not loss of salvation, no. So in the old.
• 1:36:41
  Testament when it says they grieve the holy.
• 1:36:42
  Spirit and I say I believe it was they grieve the Holy Spirit
• 1:36:45
  became their enemy and works against them that somehow we
• 1:36:50
  just throw that out the window or or I would need to read that
• 1:36:53
  passage to. Get the context because the Old
• 1:36:55
  Testament's very interesting because there's.
• 1:36:57
  There were some Jews that believed and there was other
• 1:36:59
  Jews that did not. Yeah, this is the.
• 1:37:02
  Thing I think if you are. Resisting, rejecting, and I do
• 1:37:05
  believe that that is also grieving the Holy Spirit and
• 1:37:09
  you're told not to, that is tampering with the seal.
• 1:37:12
  So again, the Holy Spirit is the down payment.
• 1:37:14
  He, the presence, He's the seal. If you're tampering with that,
• 1:37:17
  if you're rejecting sanctification, if you're going
• 1:37:20
  against the will of God, against the will of the Holy Spirit,
• 1:37:23
  yes, you are going to reach a critical state where I believe
• 1:37:26
  the seal will be broken. I think you can fiddle with it.
• 1:37:29
  Can you help me understand? I don't understand that I I'm
• 1:37:32
  not. Understanding this, you can be
• 1:37:33
  broken Kevin and the. Holy Spirit can be resisted, so
• 1:37:37
  that is why you're having such a hard time with this.
• 1:37:39
  Because God. God is all powerful.
• 1:37:41
  How? Can he be tampered with or
• 1:37:42
  broken? Then again, you're back to
• 1:37:44
  monarchism. He you.
• 1:37:45
  Cannot resist God's work of sanctification in you.
• 1:37:48
  It's not. That's not what I asked you.
• 1:37:49
  That's not what I'm. Saying I'm saying, well, you're
• 1:37:51
  saying I can't resist God. That's what you just said.
• 1:37:54
  No. Yes, it is Kevin I.
• 1:37:57
  Said Break. I'm saying how do?
• 1:38:00
  How can we break if he's all powerful, how can we break him
• 1:38:04
  so So you're taking. It hyper literal.
• 1:38:07
  That that the Holy Spirit is a literal actual seal to be
• 1:38:11
  broken. And this is not analogous.
• 1:38:13
  You're talking about like, like tampering with the seal, the
• 1:38:16
  seal that is on you for unto redemption that there's just no
• 1:38:20
  way to tamper with that it's an unbreakable seal, then that.
• 1:38:24
  Is monarchism. And you are going to have the
• 1:38:27
  Holy Spirit no matter what, even if you resist him or blasphemy
• 1:38:31
  him. Can you blasphemy him and still
• 1:38:33
  be saved? Kevin Yes, we do it all the
• 1:38:35
  time. You.
• 1:38:36
  You do it regularly on your shows.
• 1:38:37
  I hear you say GD at all the time.
• 1:38:39
  Oh man, you think that's blaspheming?
• 1:38:41
  The Holy Spirit well, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is
• 1:38:45
  a. Specific sin?
• 1:38:46
  Yeah, I asked you specifically. Can you blasphemy the holy?
• 1:38:49
  Spirit and still be saved. I don't believe that it's
• 1:38:52
  possible for anyone. Today, to do that, you're not.
• 1:38:56
  Answering the question that's. Irrelevant to the point.
• 1:38:59
  OK, so at the time when that say?
• 1:39:02
  That it's back then there's still.
• 1:39:04
  People that could have believed in blasting the Holy Spirit,
• 1:39:06
  would they be saved? No.
• 1:39:10
  People that blasphemy the Holy Spirit.
• 1:39:11
  Never believed so there is something you can do to.
• 1:39:14
  Invalidate your salvation. No, even if you are saved.
• 1:39:19
  Even if you are with. The Holy Spirit and you
• 1:39:22
  blasphemy the Holy Spirit. You're you are going to lose
• 1:39:24
  your what do you mean? No, that's ignoring what I just
• 1:39:26
  said. I told you that blaspheming the
• 1:39:29
  Holy Spirit was only during that generation where Jesus was
• 1:39:32
  publicly doing miracles. Well, first of all, you have no
• 1:39:34
  fruit for the fair. You have no.
• 1:39:35
  Fruit for that? Well, yes I do because of
• 1:39:37
  passages. The passages where it talks
• 1:39:41
  about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
• 1:39:42
  It was the Pharisees that says he casts out demons by the power
• 1:39:46
  of Beelzebub and then Jesus goes on and explains this is the
• 1:39:49
  blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't definitively mean
• 1:39:53
  you can't blasphemy the holy. Spirit today, if the that is
• 1:39:56
  that what all they did was take the Holy Spirit walking around.
• 1:39:59
  They did miracles, heaven. All they did was take the works
• 1:40:02
  of the Holy Spirit and attribute it to Satan.
• 1:40:04
  Yeah, but they actually witnessed Jesus.
• 1:40:06
  Do it Have you ever seen Jesus cast demons out of someone?
• 1:40:09
  Or you haven't? Exactly.
• 1:40:11
  So you can't blasphemy the Holy Spirit.
• 1:40:13
  Thank you. Well, if I see.
• 1:40:14
  Well, if I see the Holy Spirit. Work and do something miraculous
• 1:40:17
  in someone, and I say that's the work of Satan.
• 1:40:20
  Isn't that kind of the same thing?
• 1:40:22
  No. Why?
• 1:40:25
  Because it's attributing the. Miracles that.
• 1:40:27
  Jesus publicly did to the devil. Oh, so you can only blasphemy
• 1:40:31
  the holy? Spirit through Jesus.
• 1:40:33
  So only only insulting the Holy Spirit through Jesus would cause
• 1:40:37
  you to lose your salvation? Well, no, that's a straw man
• 1:40:40
  because I don't believe. The Pharisees were saved to
• 1:40:42
  begin with anyway, but there were people there.
• 1:40:44
  There were people there. That did, did believe at that
• 1:40:47
  time that did believe and were saved and they could blasphemy
• 1:40:51
  the Holy Spirit. So again, let's not keep going
• 1:40:53
  back to the whole timeline. Well, wait, why do you?
• 1:40:55
  Why would wait, wait, wait? Why?
• 1:40:57
  Would someone who actually trusts God that's saved by him,
• 1:41:00
  why would they attribute Jesus's miracles to the devil?
• 1:41:03
  That doesn't make sense. Well, well, that well, that's
• 1:41:05
  actually that's. Kind of kind of core to my point
• 1:41:08
  is that it, well, it might not seem logical and you might not
• 1:41:10
  come up with an exact motive. The point is whether or not they
• 1:41:13
  can. If you're saying they can't,
• 1:41:14
  then it's monogism. If you're saying they can, then
• 1:41:17
  you need to answer for the fact that what I'm specifically
• 1:41:20
  saying is they wouldn't. Want to?
• 1:41:21
  There's no reason. So what?
• 1:41:25
  I'm saying they wouldn't want to do that.
• 1:41:26
  What would be the? Reason why would they want to do
• 1:41:29
  that maybe maybe they decide that they.
• 1:41:32
  Want to resist the Holy Spirit? Maybe they dislike something
• 1:41:34
  about the message. I it could be a million
• 1:41:36
  different things. Kevin, as you said to yourself,
• 1:41:38
  human beings are complicated creatures and I am holding to
• 1:41:41
  the idea. Unless you want to again try
• 1:41:44
  otherwise again, 'cause you keep going back to monarchism every
• 1:41:46
  time I bring this up. You can resist the Holy Spirit.
• 1:41:48
  I haven't mentioned coming back and saying like you.
• 1:41:50
  Can't, and then you can. And you can't.
• 1:41:52
  And you can't. You can't make up your mind if
• 1:41:55
  those would be a very frustrating.
• 1:41:56
  Conversation. I don't want to go, I don't want
• 1:41:59
  to go around. In circles with them on this.
• 1:42:01
  All night. I've answered it probably a
• 1:42:02
  dozen times. Yeah, let's, let's move on past
• 1:42:05
  this now. We.
• 1:42:05
  Have 10 minutes left and and smoke you you wanted to make a
• 1:42:08
  point so go ahead and make that point we'll move from there
• 1:42:10
  we'll pitch it to you. Go ahead.
• 1:42:12
  OK, yeah, let's. Let's go to like something like
• 1:42:15
  say, for instance, I want to I want to look at John 3 for a
• 1:42:18
  minute. I'll pull if we put my can.
• 1:42:22
  You with a doubt or? Well, I'll just, I'll just run
• 1:42:24
  it by and I can just run it through a.
• 1:42:25
  Question, Kevin. What is?
• 1:42:30
  The content of the belief that saved the disciples.
• 1:42:37
  They trusted Jesus. Trust him how?
• 1:42:41
  For what? They trusted.
• 1:42:44
  That he was the Messiah, that was.
• 1:42:45
  Prophesied about OK, but they didn't.
• 1:42:48
  Trust. They didn't trust in the idea
• 1:42:51
  that he would be resurrected, right?
• 1:42:53
  I think they were ignorant about that.
• 1:42:55
  At that time it hadn't maybe hadn't been revealed to them
• 1:42:57
  yet, so they didn't have to believe in the.
• 1:43:00
  Resurrection to be saved at that point once.
• 1:43:04
  It was revealed to them then, yes.
• 1:43:06
  Do you do you believe in progressive revelation?
• 1:43:10
  Yeah, that's fine. That's.
• 1:43:11
  Fine if that's where you want to.
• 1:43:12
  Go with that. I'm just checking to see in
• 1:43:14
  terms of where you stand, you know, in, in that regard, in
• 1:43:17
  terms of what the disciples believed that saved them.
• 1:43:20
  So what did the disciples at the minimum believe that saved them?
• 1:43:24
  They believed that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
• 1:43:25
  And the Son of God, and they put their trust in him so, so they
• 1:43:29
  they believed that he. Was.
• 1:43:32
  They believed that he was God and they believed what was the
• 1:43:35
  other thing you said, the Son of God?
• 1:43:38
  Well, the Son of God. Basically.
• 1:43:40
  And their culture meant God, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:43:43
  So. So continue.
• 1:43:44
  What was the other thing? And that he's the Christ.
• 1:43:49
  OK. And so so the.
• 1:43:51
  Messiah now, so they but they didn't believe what his work was
• 1:43:53
  going to be because they thought he was going to be a political
• 1:43:56
  ruler that was going to come in and rule.
• 1:43:57
  They didn't believe that he was going to die on the cross and
• 1:44:00
  save everyone from their sins as a suffering servant.
• 1:44:02
  Right. Yeah, that was a.
• 1:44:06
  Judaism had split up. Into camps on that.
• 1:44:09
  There if you I don't want to go on a whole thing of that.
• 1:44:12
  But you know, just to just to clear that clear down to the
• 1:44:15
  point like they didn't have the belief in the full gospel, the
• 1:44:18
  whole message in order to be saved.
• 1:44:20
  No, I'm sure a lot of them did not.
• 1:44:23
  OK, so. Do you believe?
• 1:44:25
  That at least. Judas, or at any point in time,
• 1:44:27
  believe that Christ was the Messiah, even if he didn't
• 1:44:31
  believe he was God. I'm not, no, I don't think.
• 1:44:37
  Judas had his own beliefs about what he thought Jesus should be.
• 1:44:42
  So like what Jesus came to do, Judas wasn't OK with that.
• 1:44:46
  He had his own idea of what Jesus should be doing.
• 1:44:50
  And when Jesus isn't doing what Judas thinks he should be doing,
• 1:44:53
  Judas says, well, I don't care, you know, because if you're what
• 1:44:57
  you're getting at is if Judas was saved, he lost his
• 1:44:59
  salvation. Well, Jesus disagrees with you.
• 1:45:01
  He says that Judas was a devil from the beginning.
• 1:45:03
  And in John six, he says he never believed.
• 1:45:06
  And he also says when he's up in the upper room with the
• 1:45:08
  disciples, he said one of you is unclean.
• 1:45:10
  Speaking of Judas, I don't know if it says we actually never
• 1:45:13
  believed. But, well, it says he knew from
• 1:45:17
  the beginning. He who believed not Well, yeah,
• 1:45:19
  but that's because God knows everything.
• 1:45:20
  From beginning to end, that has nothing to do with whether or
• 1:45:23
  not he was in a state and then change that state.
• 1:45:26
  That's simply because God has the ability to see what someone
• 1:45:29
  actually is from past to present.
• 1:45:31
  That's it. Well, that's how you're
• 1:45:32
  interpreting it. But when I when I see.
• 1:45:34
  The the phrase believe not well, God wasn't well as far as I
• 1:45:37
  know. God wasn't judging Judas on it
• 1:45:39
  as a devil based upon something he hadn't done yet, but was
• 1:45:43
  judging him as a devil based upon what he knew he would do
• 1:45:47
  so. It's not, it's not like.
• 1:45:50
  Judas had done something to reveal himself because that's
• 1:45:52
  not what's referenced here. It's referenced the foresight is
• 1:45:55
  what caused Christ to know that he was a devil.
• 1:45:58
  So I'm just kind of wondering, in terms of the substance of
• 1:46:01
  belief, you're OK with the idea that the substance of saving
• 1:46:05
  faith really doesn't necessarily have anything to do with
• 1:46:08
  recognizing what Christ actually did, not at that time, but once?
• 1:46:12
  It's been fully. Revealed now it is OK.
• 1:46:16
  So OK, so so the. So the disciples were OK with
• 1:46:20
  not believing the message up until that point, and then
• 1:46:23
  afterwards had to believe it was Christ revealed or they would
• 1:46:26
  have not been saved. So if doubting Thomas had
• 1:46:30
  stayed, doubting he would have stayed unsaved.
• 1:46:35
  Well, that's why Jesus. Revealed himself to him to.
• 1:46:37
  Ensure that he would believe. So he so he made sure he he did
• 1:46:43
  that to make sure. That that Thomas would be saved.
• 1:46:46
  Yeah, because he planned for Thomas.
• 1:46:48
  And the disciples to go out to all nations and preach the
• 1:46:50
  gospel and plant churches all around the world.
• 1:46:53
  Yeah, OK. Yeah, that's fine.
• 1:46:56
  I was actually. It's interesting that you're
• 1:46:59
  willing to actually admit that in terms of that regard.
• 1:47:02
  Well, remember Jesus said, he said.
• 1:47:03
  I have not. I have chosen you and ordained
• 1:47:06
  you that you should go out, and your fruit shall should remained
• 1:47:09
  so. Jesus.
• 1:47:10
  Jesus did a. Special work for his.
• 1:47:12
  Disciples for the initial, he said this was.
• 1:47:15
  More than mental. Ascensus.
• 1:47:17
  In terms of your view, it was more than just the recognition
• 1:47:20
  of who Christ was. But when you describe the saving
• 1:47:22
  belief, that seems to be exactly what you describe.
• 1:47:25
  It's just an affirmation that he is who he says he is.
• 1:47:29
  Doesn't seem to be anything else.
• 1:47:31
  It doesn't seem to really include anything of any
• 1:47:33
  necessity to regard any of his commands or his teachings, it
• 1:47:37
  seems. In regards to especially some.
• 1:47:40
  Of those passage I pulled up of Matthew 6 and Matthew 10.
• 1:47:45
  You know about these conditions that if you don't do this, I
• 1:47:48
  will, you know, deny you before my Father.
• 1:47:50
  And if you don't forgive, you know your fellow man, I won't
• 1:47:53
  forgive you of your sins and trespasses.
• 1:47:56
  So clearly to me this is Jesus saying, you know, you have to do
• 1:47:59
  this in order to be saved. Do you disagree?
• 1:48:04
  Oh, I. No, you're not doing that to be
• 1:48:05
  saved. You muted, He muted.
• 1:48:11
  I can't. Hear him.
• 1:48:14
  Maybe bouncing out again, yeah. He's freezing up there.
• 1:48:17
  We'll. Give a couple seconds, then come
• 1:48:19
  back here and we're getting close.
• 1:48:23
  To the the conclusion. Of this debate, too.
• 1:48:25
  Yeah. And I've I've kind of run my
• 1:48:27
  course. With most of this, I just want
• 1:48:28
  to finish up kind of on this point.
• 1:48:30
  If he wants to finish with anything with me, that's fine.
• 1:48:39
  And I do want to mention during. Oh, there we go.
• 1:48:43
  Good to guide Kevin. Well, we can hear Kevin.
• 1:48:45
  Maybe if you're, if you're canvas freezing up to stay in
• 1:48:48
  the audio there, that'd not be a good idea.
• 1:48:50
  OK. Go ahead.
• 1:48:54
  So sorry. So.
• 1:48:59
  So. It Kevin, do you believe that
• 1:49:02
  you can be saved without your sins being forgiven?
• 1:49:08
  No, no. That's why I go to pastors like
• 1:49:12
  Colossians 213 where it says Christ has forgiven you for all
• 1:49:15
  of your trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of
• 1:49:17
  ordinances contained, or that was against us and nailed it to
• 1:49:20
  His cross. Colossians 2.
• 1:49:24
  I actually had that up earlier. OK, that's OK.
• 1:49:26
  He's forgiven us all of our trespasses.
• 1:49:29
  And what about Colossians? Well, if we go rewind a little
• 1:49:32
  bit on that, what if we go back to Colossians one verse 21.
• 1:49:38
  It says you who once were alien and hostile in mind doing evil
• 1:49:41
  deeds. He has now reconciled in his
• 1:49:43
  body of flesh by his death in order to present you holy and
• 1:49:46
  blameless and above reproach before him.
• 1:49:48
  If indeed you continue in the faith stable and steadfast, not
• 1:49:54
  shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard which has
• 1:49:57
  been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, for which I Paul
• 1:49:59
  became a minister. How do you interpret that clear
• 1:50:02
  conditional of the if that your your confidence here is is
• 1:50:08
  dependent upon something if you continue in the fade, What verse
• 1:50:12
  is it? It's Colossians.
• 1:50:13
  One verse. 23 yeah, you should probably read 2021 through 23.
• 1:50:21
  It's all one paragraph of like, sure.
• 1:50:23
  It's like it's one sentence. And you that were sometimes
• 1:50:28
  alienated. In enemies, in your mind, by
• 1:50:30
  wicked works. Yet now has He reconciled in the
• 1:50:33
  body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and
• 1:50:37
  unbelievable and unreprovable in His sight.
• 1:50:39
  So verse 22 is already giving us eternal security.
• 1:50:43
  Verse 23 If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and
• 1:50:46
  be not moved away from the hope or the promise of a gospel which
• 1:50:51
  you have heard, it's funny. How You said 22 is eternal.
• 1:50:58
  Security only have to, you know, put your foot in your mouth for
• 1:51:01
  23. That's literally the
• 1:51:05
  continuation of the sentence. If those things that you said
• 1:51:08
  were eternal security, there are conditional if indeed you
• 1:51:13
  continue in the faith state, well, here's the problem.
• 1:51:16
  So if is a. Translator's choice.
• 1:51:19
  So Paul puts. He introduces the if and people
• 1:51:24
  take it as a conditional statement, but some translations
• 1:51:27
  translate it as the word sense or either.
• 1:51:31
  That would be. Appropriate Paul's previous
• 1:51:35
  comments about being holy through Christ are true only for
• 1:51:40
  genuine believers. He then gives 4 markers.
• 1:51:44
  For such legitimate. Believers which are continuing.
• 1:51:46
  If you use sense it wouldn't. It wouldn't.
• 1:51:48
  Help you. It's still a continuation and
• 1:51:51
  it's still a condition, so well, it would though be well, like.
• 1:51:55
  You. Go ahead because.
• 1:51:56
  Listen, there's certain. Translations like if you go back
• 1:51:59
  up to verse 22, it says in the body of his flesh through death
• 1:52:03
  to present you holy and unblameable and approval in his
• 1:52:06
  sight since or because he continuing the faith grounded
• 1:52:09
  and settled. So he's the way Paul's saying is
• 1:52:12
  he's making the sound of the word indeed too.
• 1:52:14
  He got rid of the word indeed. As well.
• 1:52:16
  Well, in the King James, there's no indeed.
• 1:52:17
  It just says if. Ye it, but I'm saying it there's
• 1:52:20
  other translations that translate it that way.
• 1:52:22
  That's a translator's choice just to put F.
• 1:52:26
  So since. You continue.
• 1:52:28
  In the faith. So this only applies to you if
• 1:52:31
  you are continuing in the faith because it says since.
• 1:52:34
  So this is a continuation. It's an extrapolation.
• 1:52:37
  Even if I use that it's but it's not a conditional statement.
• 1:52:40
  It is. It is conditional because it's
• 1:52:42
  literally. Leading to say the point I'm
• 1:52:44
  trying to use your word. If I use not your word, by the
• 1:52:48
  way, makes no. Sense, but I'll use it anyway.
• 1:52:50
  It says since you continue in the faith, so this is what it's
• 1:52:54
  saying will be done for you because or since or or or
• 1:52:58
  compounded with the idea that you are continuing in the face,
• 1:53:01
  so it still doesn't help you. My point in.
• 1:53:06
  Bringing out that is because I have that in my editor's notes
• 1:53:09
  because I've looked into I've researched this passage before
• 1:53:12
  is the scholars are arguing that if is not a legitimate
• 1:53:15
  translation, who which scholars? I haven't heard that.
• 1:53:21
  I mean. Am I?
• 1:53:22
  Am I dealing with a minority? Interpretation of this because
• 1:53:24
  I'm using the ESV so am I dealing with a minority
• 1:53:28
  interpretation of what this I can I can?
• 1:53:31
  Look and see. How many translations?
• 1:53:33
  Have it different. I'm sure there's quite a few of
• 1:53:35
  them. Well, well, that's not telling
• 1:53:38
  me. Anything you you claim to have
• 1:53:40
  done a study on this and you don't know, then that's
• 1:53:42
  completely worthless to me. Well, here's the thing I
• 1:53:45
  haven't. Saved all the trades.
• 1:53:49
  OK, I. Haven't saved all the.
• 1:53:50
  Translations that translate it that way.
• 1:53:53
  But I've made note that there are many translations.
• 1:53:55
  OK, well I'll tell you what. What's your favorite translation
• 1:53:57
  read? It out of that one, I usually
• 1:53:58
  just go with the King James and the King James says.
• 1:54:00
  If there we go. OK, so I'm going to go.
• 1:54:05
  With I'm going to go ahead on. This one I'm going to yield to
• 1:54:07
  the translators. Unless you have an argument that
• 1:54:10
  rivals the translators and their decision, then I think it's a
• 1:54:13
  moot point. I think you should concede it.
• 1:54:17
  Well, because if you translate it if.
• 1:54:19
  You're making it a conditional statement and that's not
• 1:54:21
  necessarily true. That's a no.
• 1:54:23
  It is. Well, that, well, that is what's
• 1:54:24
  going on. In the passage.
• 1:54:26
  And The thing is, what you're doing to try to get rid of it is
• 1:54:28
  to ICG. You're trying to force your
• 1:54:30
  already pre presumed belief. No, I'm not by saying don't use.
• 1:54:34
  If because if. Is a conditional, and that ruins
• 1:54:37
  my soteriology. So don't use if that's the only
• 1:54:39
  argument you've given. So it's.
• 1:54:42
  It's G. 1487 It's a participle indeed, or emphasis or
• 1:54:48
  qualification meaning if at least, if indeed, if so be.
• 1:54:55
  If indeed also which is applying.
• 1:54:57
  Only to is taken for granted. May be expressed by since
• 1:55:00
  although, although being yeah yeah blah blah blah.
• 1:55:07
  So if. Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:55:09
  Bible reference. Well, let's get lost on that.
• 1:55:11
  It is what it is. So let's.
• 1:55:13
  Go back to the conditionals of the teachings of Christ, because
• 1:55:15
  Christ says I have to forgive in order to be forgiven.
• 1:55:18
  I want to finish on this and then whatever you want to throw
• 1:55:20
  at me, you can and then I guess we can wrap it up.
• 1:55:23
  Questions, answers, praise or we just are we just yeah, we got we
• 1:55:26
  got quite a few we're. Kind of getting late in the
• 1:55:29
  debate. So if we could wrap this up
• 1:55:31
  between, you know, 5 to 7 minutes, that'd be great.
• 1:55:33
  Yeah, let's, let's do that. I'm going to finish on this.
• 1:55:35
  One point and then we can we can proceed forward and wrap this
• 1:55:40
  up. So Matthew 6, the idea presented
• 1:55:44
  Kevin, was the idea that in order for you to be saved, you
• 1:55:46
  have to have your sins forgiven. And Christ is very clear in
• 1:55:50
  Matthew 6, I think it's 15 memory serves.
• 1:55:53
  If you do not forgive your brother, he will not forgive you
• 1:55:57
  unless you want to think you can be saved without your sins being
• 1:56:00
  forgiven. This is a clear conditional from
• 1:56:01
  Christ. How do you answer that Well.
• 1:56:05
  There's two ways you can answer that.
• 1:56:07
  Number one is talking about parental forgiveness.
• 1:56:08
  So if you don't forgive, your Heavenly Father will discipline
• 1:56:12
  you and it could be also taken in the lordship position where a
• 1:56:17
  heart of forgiveness that's been granted upon salvation will have
• 1:56:22
  be inclined to be forgiving. Well, what's your position and
• 1:56:26
  why? I'm not sure.
• 1:56:29
  On that particular verse, how to interpret it well, I I will say
• 1:56:33
  this that while. You're not sure of it in terms
• 1:56:36
  of what it means and you would like to try and find some sort
• 1:56:39
  of fringe interpretation to try to get OSAS out of it.
• 1:56:42
  I think it's clear and it's a command from my Lord and Savior
• 1:56:45
  that if I do, if I hold grudges, if I'm not willing to forgive my
• 1:56:49
  fellow man, then I have no expectation or idea that God
• 1:56:52
  will forgive me. And this, I believe, continues
• 1:56:55
  with the idea of the wicked servant who who had a massive
• 1:56:58
  fee and a massive debt to his master, who the master forgave
• 1:57:01
  him. But then what did that wicked
• 1:57:02
  servant do? He went up and held a full
• 1:57:04
  account to his fellow man, and that servant was thrown into
• 1:57:07
  prison until he could answer for every single crime and every
• 1:57:10
  debt that he had. And that to me is a direct
• 1:57:12
  correlation of hell. And that's what hell is where
• 1:57:14
  you go to pay for your own sins for all of eternity.
• 1:57:17
  So that's my take on it. While you take the position of,
• 1:57:19
  I don't really know yet, but whatever fringe thing supports
• 1:57:23
  OSAS, I'll accept. I take a very direct approach
• 1:57:26
  and I can really regard the commands of my Lord and Savior
• 1:57:28
  Jesus Christ that if I don't forgive, I should have no
• 1:57:30
  expectation to be forgiven. So I'll yield with that unless
• 1:57:34
  there's anything else you want to throw at me or run down with
• 1:57:36
  me and we can move to Q and AI guess.
• 1:57:39
  Yeah. So I would just.
• 1:57:40
  Say I'm gonna try to turn my camera.
• 1:57:41
  On I don't know if there's time after.
• 1:57:44
  This and maybe there's a few questions for Kevin.
• 1:57:46
  If I could use the bathroom, that would be awesome.
• 1:57:48
  Oh yeah, sure, take yeah if you need to use the.
• 1:57:50
  Restroom. Go ahead.
• 1:57:51
  Yeah, but Kevin could do his thing.
• 1:57:53
  Let's finish up with. His thing and then I'll just do
• 1:57:55
  that maybe and throw a couple questions at Kevin.
• 1:57:57
  Sure. I would just say just.
• 1:57:59
  Because if there. Exists one or two passages
• 1:58:02
  where? I'm not exactly sure on how to
• 1:58:04
  interpret them like, oh, well, if you don't forgive, your
• 1:58:06
  Father in heaven will forgive you.
• 1:58:08
  I've heard people like Matt Powell talk about a parental
• 1:58:10
  forgiveness and that's a possible interpretation.
• 1:58:13
  And I've heard, you know, Calvinists and more extreme
• 1:58:16
  Lordship side are saying that a new heart that's been granted
• 1:58:20
  will be forgiving. So those are both possible
• 1:58:22
  interpretations. I I don't know which one is
• 1:58:24
  correct, but I view I rule out the possibility of loss of
• 1:58:28
  salvation because the New Testament makes it quite clear
• 1:58:31
  in numerous places that that's impossible.
• 1:58:33
  So I can't interpret in a way that contradicts the rest of
• 1:58:36
  Scripture. I don't think you sold that
• 1:58:38
  tonight. And I don't think.
• 1:58:39
  Anything you brought up could be deductively or definitively to
• 1:58:42
  support your case. I think you have to assume.
• 1:58:44
  Well, I, I think I. Did I?
• 1:58:46
  I made it clear to the audience you do believe that you your
• 1:58:49
  position entails your earning, your justification, and you had
• 1:58:52
  no no grounds to explain how you're not earning it.
• 1:58:58
  Well, because I didn't enact it, and I didn't.
• 1:59:00
  Start it so there's no way to earn it.
• 1:59:02
  Earning it would be earning it would be as if I did something
• 1:59:06
  to initiate or get it going. That's earning it.
• 1:59:08
  That's what's making it happen. If I'm earning it, it's because
• 1:59:11
  I'm doing something to make it manifest onto me.
• 1:59:14
  And it's no longer grace cause grace is unmerited favor.
• 1:59:16
  But it's up to you to keep and finish it right?
• 1:59:18
  So This is why the grace that is saving.
• 1:59:21
  That is talking about here can't be talking about any merit on
• 1:59:24
  our part at all up into including I believe believe it
• 1:59:28
  so because so the because grace has to be unmerited favor and
• 1:59:31
  the merit can't be anything that we've done then that can only
• 1:59:35
  apply to the grand scheme of salvation as Christ as the first
• 1:59:39
  mover. That's the only place it can
• 1:59:41
  apply to because after that there are things we have to do
• 1:59:45
  and at the very least you agree the minimum doing we have to
• 1:59:47
  believe. And if that's not a work, then
• 1:59:52
  neither is. Continuing to believe, well, my
• 1:59:55
  argument would be that if it's up to.
• 1:59:56
  US to maintain it and and finish it then that's the same thing as
• 2:00:01
  earning it. No, I didn't say that, and
• 2:00:03
  that's not the position. I hold Kevin and again, no, I'm
• 2:00:05
  I'm saying that's how I look at it.
• 2:00:07
  Philippians 2. It's synergy.
• 2:00:09
  OK, you cooperate with the Holy Spirit.
• 2:00:11
  It's not as any of us doing it under our own will or our own
• 2:00:15
  volition to somehow reach God absent the Holy Spirit, absent
• 2:00:19
  faith. That's the type of work
• 2:00:20
  salvation you try to apply to me, that it's an earning.
• 2:00:23
  It is not absent. It is not a devoid of the
• 2:00:25
  presence of the Holy Spirit, the seal of salvation.
• 2:00:28
  You, you, when you critique me, you make it sound like it's
• 2:00:32
  completely devoid, as if my actions are enacting the actual
• 2:00:36
  initial salvation. It's not as it says in James 2.
• 2:00:40
  My actions are a completion of the faith.
• 2:00:42
  It's perfects it, just like it did with Abraham when Abraham
• 2:00:46
  obeyed God. And by the way, that's the one
• 2:00:47
  thing Abraham always did Kevin, which you don't realize he he
• 2:00:51
  didn't believe God, but you know what he did do?
• 2:00:52
  He obeyed him, you know, and that's why I think you need to
• 2:00:55
  consider that when you well, show me somewhere he didn't well
• 2:01:01
  for. Instance when he slept with
• 2:01:02
  Hagar was he? Obedient gun?
• 2:01:04
  When was he told to not do that? Well.
• 2:01:08
  God told him that he was going to give.
• 2:01:09
  Him, his son, through his way, yeah, but he didn't tell him to
• 2:01:11
  not do that. So he always.
• 2:01:12
  Obeyed God. That's the one unified.
• 2:01:14
  You see, your point is moot and stupid because again, my point
• 2:01:17
  is again, the one thing that Abraham did.
• 2:01:20
  You laugh all you want. You just put your foot in your
• 2:01:22
  mouth because you don't know I did it.
• 2:01:24
  You see? You did, Abraham.
• 2:01:25
  Know that? Wait, wait, did Abraham know?
• 2:01:28
  Because hey, hey, wait. Did Abraham?
• 2:01:30
  Know that adultery was wrong, but he always obeyed God, He
• 2:01:34
  always he. Always submitted to God.
• 2:01:35
  When God told him to go, he went.
• 2:01:37
  Really he may not have done. He came out of from Irv.
• 2:01:39
  The Chaldees and he told God, told Abraham to leave all of his
• 2:01:43
  possessions and all of his relatives.
• 2:01:45
  And no, he didn't. He took a lot.
• 2:01:47
  With him he. Disobeyed.
• 2:01:48
  He did not leave everything behind.
• 2:01:49
  He took a lot. Well, I don't know if he took a
• 2:01:51
  lot as. Much as he would he.
• 2:01:53
  Ended up sharing borders with Lot, but I mean, that's yeah, a
• 2:01:56
  Lot came with him. God didn't.
• 2:01:58
  Tell him to bring Lot. OK, but he, well, that was Lot's
• 2:02:00
  choice. I don't I don't think that
• 2:02:02
  necessarily Abraham and by the way, he.
• 2:02:05
  Didn't he didn't tell him specifically to not.
• 2:02:07
  Take anyone with him, he said. Leave your family which is which
• 2:02:10
  is not his family like you're you think.
• 2:02:13
  That's do you think that's what? He meant like you're not allowed
• 2:02:15
  to take any of your family with him.
• 2:02:16
  Was his wife? Was his wife, his family Smokey?
• 2:02:22
  You're an idiot. Man, you are such an idiot
• 2:02:25
  'cause you don't even. Know how language works?
• 2:02:27
  Let's know how language. Works.
• 2:02:29
  You're a moron. Where his?
• 2:02:31
  What was was his? His.
• 2:02:32
  His other connected people, His family, along with his wife or
• 2:02:36
  anyone else he had connected to her?
• 2:02:37
  Was that part of his family? Because clearly he had
• 2:02:40
  permission, so was he. Supposed, but we need because
• 2:02:43
  that's his family too. You're not Sarah, and no one
• 2:02:47
  else. And he?
• 2:02:47
  Disobeyed. He obeyed God.
• 2:02:49
  He obeyed God when God. Said go, he went.
• 2:02:51
  And when he says leave your family, it's leaving the land,
• 2:02:53
  the place where your family is. He's telling him to go to a
• 2:02:56
  different place and he's something.
• 2:02:59
  That God's saying you can't take.
• 2:03:01
  Anyone with you and if Sarah and his family that that didn't
• 2:03:04
  follow that did he God didn't ever told me he.
• 2:03:08
  Couldn't bring Sarah, but he. Just man, OK?
• 2:03:11
  We can move on, I think. I may.
• 2:03:12
  There we go. Yeah, I think that'll be the
• 2:03:14
  conclusion. Of the debate, I appreciate the
• 2:03:16
  fiery debate tonight and the the passion and it came out and I
• 2:03:21
  appreciate the debate. I'll be right back.
• 2:03:24
  Go ahead. Go ahead, Smokey, and what
• 2:03:26
  we'll. Do.
• 2:03:26
  Is show the after show here? Promote the after show and how
• 2:03:30
  am I getting cooked? He said to leave.
• 2:03:31
  Your family and he disobeyed he brought he brought lot.
• 2:03:36
  That's that's disobeying what God said I'm not getting cooked.
• 2:03:38
  You're just an idiot. Get saved, moron, you atheist
• 2:03:41
  retard. Sorry.
• 2:03:43
  Well, let me. Plug in your after show here on
• 2:03:47
  Kevin. So there will be an after show
• 2:03:49
  on Kevin, but there's also going to be an after show on Brett
• 2:03:53
  Keene. So there's going to be 2 after
• 2:03:55
  shows. We encourage you to go to either
• 2:03:57
  one. And you know, this is a huge
• 2:04:00
  topic, passionate topic, and it was a good one.
• 2:04:05
  It was a good one tonight. And that's what we expect.
• 2:04:12
  You know what this? Topic is going to be a little
• 2:04:15
  bit of sparks flying, a little bit of fire.
• 2:04:17
  That's what we want here and appreciate.
• 2:04:21
  The the questions we. Got quite a few questions we're
• 2:04:24
  going to get into so go. Ahead to.
• 2:04:29
  Kevin's or Brett's after show, there's the link there and.
• 2:04:35
  Brett Keene, Music God. Radio talk show or God?
• 2:04:41
  TV, Radio. In fact, you know what?
• 2:04:56
  I'm going to put the 1st. Question on the board here.
• 2:05:00
  So you guys will be ready to go from Chris Free Grace.
• 2:05:05
  Thank you so much, my man. Chris is awesome and we'll start
• 2:05:10
  here when Smokey gets back in. Fact.
• 2:05:15
  You know what I think? Do you mind if I step away for
• 2:05:18
  two seconds? Sure, that's.
• 2:05:21
  Fine, quick bathroom break. I'll be right back break here.
• 2:05:23
  What we're going. To do.
• 2:05:25
  Is just be right back. Music.
• 2:06:46
  The. The.