Latest / Math Therapy / Can asking for help backfire?

Transcript

Can asking for help backfire? · Math Therapy

• 0:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I see the way you're acting like it makes me frustrated.
• 0:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You crawl and you go like, what are those words?
• 0:08
  David Kochberg: Is this how we're starting the episode?
• 0:11
  David Kochberg: I guess so.
• 0:12
  David Kochberg: Hey, welcome to Math Therapy.
• 0:13
  David Kochberg: We're talking about songwriting,
• 0:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: like I guess we are.
• 0:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 0:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: So why you gotta go and make things so complicated?
• 0:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: One of the greatest songs ever written by Avril Lavigne.
• 0:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why are we talking about this?
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why did I start that way?
• 0:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I starting that way?
• 0:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should I start again?
• 0:28
  David Kochberg: Hey, it's your podcast.
• 0:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's what's happening this week at Math Therapy, which is kind of weird, but I think will make sense to a lot of you who know me.
• 0:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: David and I are on a songwriting retreat.
• 0:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: In addition to him producing my podcast, we're also in a band and we are writing a new album that we will be recording in a few months.
• 0:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And as the week has progressed, I have noticed more and more that the process of trying to write a hit song is basically identical to the process of trying to solve a math problem and like all of the complicated emotions around trauma and feeling not good enough and feeling stuck and having anxiety and feeling like you need a specific outcome.
• 1:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so you can no longer focus on the process.
• 1:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like all of the things we talk about in math education have come up so often this week that I was like.
• 1:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we should do an episode about this because musicians and artists are notorious for hating math and having math, trauma and feeling like math has nothing to do with their craft.
• 1:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I find that mathematicians are notorious for thinking that, uh, creativity and like fluidity are in opposition to logical thinking and reasoning.
• 1:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it's just so interesting because to me, being in both worlds, the worlds are so similar, and the mental processes and the emotional hurdles that we go through when we're either songwriting, doing something quote unquote creative, or solving a math problem, which is also completely creative, but we don't think of it that way.
• 2:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's all the same thing.
• 2:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's all the same fucking thing.
• 2:05
  David Kochberg: Agreed.
• 2:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now here's the thing.
• 2:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: You always hear people say like, but everyone knows that music is math, right?
• 2:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like people will say stuff like that.
• 2:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like in the math education world, when if you have like a creative friend or student that's like, oh man, like I'm not interested in math.
• 2:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I just wanna be a musician.
• 2:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like our go-to is to say, but music is math.
• 2:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually wonder if,
• 2:27
  David Kochberg: but nobody buys that.
• 2:28
  David Kochberg: No one.
• 2:28
  David Kochberg: You say that all the time.
• 2:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I say it all the time.
• 2:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: But,
• 2:31
  David Kochberg: and then ev, anyone who.
• 2:32
  David Kochberg: Would disagree would be like, what are you talking about?
• 2:34
  David Kochberg: That doesn't make any sense.
• 2:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true.
• 2:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you guys probably know this story that's in my book Math Therapy about our guitarist, Eric, and how I try that technique on him.
• 2:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 2:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it did not work until it did whole.
• 2:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Other story we won't talk about.
• 2:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now here's, here's the thing.
• 2:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: When people say music is math, there are so many ways in which it's math.
• 2:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know what people are talking about because everyone's talking about a different thing.
• 2:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what they are usually talking about is.
• 2:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Notes and patterns and music, they're usually talking about that.
• 3:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: That could be a whole other episode.
• 3:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But today what I actually want to talk about is how the process of writing a hit single is the exact same as the process of solving a math problem.
• 3:18
  David Kochberg: Whoa.
• 3:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what I wanna talk about.
• 3:20
  David Kochberg: Whoa.
• 3:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: The process.
• 3:22
  David Kochberg: Yes,
• 3:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: the, and we're gonna talk about three key, because there is so much we could talk about,
• 3:27
  David Kochberg: well, that music is math thing.
• 3:29
  David Kochberg: I think that that the reason someone who will have the initial gut reaction of, I hate math, they would just not buy it.
• 3:39
  David Kochberg: Because I think the narrow definition of what math is right, is what most people are very.
• 3:47
  David Kochberg: Like we all, everyone's got people like this.
• 3:49
  David Kochberg: Probably listeners are like this.
• 3:51
  David Kochberg: Like I can think of people in my family or people you've talked to on the podcast, um, that are, are just.
• 3:58
  David Kochberg: Math is one thing.
• 3:59
  David Kochberg: Math is just, if it has numbers, it's math.
• 4:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 4:01
  David Kochberg: So if you're saying music is math, like sure, there's numbers like time signatures and stuff, but that's pretty in the weeds.
• 4:07
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 4:07
  David Kochberg: So like no one who doesn't know anything about music yet is gonna know that there actually is number math, but it's, that's their, the only way that they're evaluating is something math.
• 4:18
  David Kochberg: But what you're trying to say is that actual.
• 4:21
  David Kochberg: Actually patterns and structures.
• 4:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I'm, it's true, but I'm not even saying like that.
• 4:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am saying that, but that's a different conversation.
• 4:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm saying that mathematical thinking is the same as creative thinking.
• 4:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I, I I'm saying that mathematical thinking is the same as pop sensibility.
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whoa, there you fucking go.
• 4:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
• 4:44
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 4:44
  David Kochberg: That's what I'm saying.
• 4:45
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 4:45
  David Kochberg: Okay, so this, so this episode you will.
• 4:49
  David Kochberg: It elucidate how?
• 4:51
  David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
• 4:51
  David Kochberg: I don't know if that's the right word, but how I don't, mathematical thinking doesn't necessarily just have to be what would traditionally be called math and how, and you're illustrating that through creative thinking.
• 5:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but even now there's already a problem because
• 5:09
  David Kochberg: I'm doing a bad, I was trying, it's not your problem.
• 5:10
  David Kochberg: I was trying to summarize your intro and like put a punctuation on and I ruined it.
• 5:14
  David Kochberg: I guess
• 5:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: if you didn't ruin it.
• 5:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's just, I think that, that we're, we're, we're getting to the crux of the problem, which is all of these language choices, like we're gonna show how mathematical defining our terms, right?
• 5:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like how mathematical thinking is creative thinking.
• 5:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, those are the same thing.
• 5:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not gonna show how one is the other.
• 5:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like they are one and they're the same thing.
• 5:31
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 5:31
  David Kochberg: Forget what I said.
• 5:32
  David Kochberg: Maybe I'll just cut it out, but no, we're gonna No, no, no, no, no.
• 5:34
  David Kochberg: Keep it in.
• 5:35
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 5:35
  David Kochberg: You say the next thing you were gonna say,
• 5:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think, I think this is what I want the crux of today to be is whether or not you, because most people listening to this are probably not songwriters themselves.
• 5:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if you listen to music, period.
• 5:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: This episode is for you, like if you listen to music and you hate math.
• 5:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: This episode is for you if you love math, but you're like, I don't really care about music that much.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: This episode is for you.
• 6:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: The whole point of this episode is to show that mathematical thinking is not confined to a math classroom.
• 6:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And mathematical thinking doesn't mean that you have to ditch creativity.
• 6:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: the reason this all started is because I told you guys at the beginning of this episode, probably once every two years, me and David go on a songwriting retreat.
• 6:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not that we won't write songs in between, we do, but mostly we save like an album cycle for the bulk of the songwriting, which means it has now been months and months and months since I've written my last song.
• 6:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now.
• 6:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Very similar to math.
• 6:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you don't use it, you lose it.
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it also is like riding a bike, right?
• 6:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we get back into our groove here and the first few days I'm really struggling, I'm like, fuck.
• 6:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I can't even write a song.
• 6:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't even remember how to do it.
• 6:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like how do I even write a song?
• 6:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so like, because I'm desperate and I'm like, we need to produce songs like we are recording this album.
• 6:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm feeling all the pressure.
• 6:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I start being like, okay, what techniques do I have?
• 7:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: What tools do I have?
• 7:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: What can I draw on?
• 7:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now I want you guys to keep in mind, we've been in this band for 14 years, and David can attest to the fact that I've written songs in a bajillion ways.
• 7:10
  David Kochberg: yes, I've
• 7:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: written songs by humming a melody.
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've written songs by picking up a guitar.
• 7:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've written songs by picking up a piano.
• 7:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've written songs by just.
• 7:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Se writing a bunch of words and you know, and then David will take them and do something with them.
• 7:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's all these ways, but in my desperation, after the first few days feeling like, oh my God, I have writer's block.
• 7:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how to do this anymore.
• 7:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how to write a song.
• 7:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the pressure of being like, we need to write a song or an album with all these songs, like albums are super expensive.
• 7:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I need to like make this worth it.
• 7:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I.
• 7:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Went to one of my tried, tested and true methods, which is I get a backing track.
• 7:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 7:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'll download an instrumental track off of the internet.
• 7:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I will write a melody to it.
• 7:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I find that really the most simple thing for me.
• 7:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes, so, right, like I have this instrumental track.
• 7:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll start humming along.
• 7:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Words will come to me, whatever
• 7:57
  David Kochberg: This is called top lining in the, uh, parlance of the songwriting game.
• 8:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's called Top Lining.
• 8:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what'll happen is I'll get this backing track.
• 8:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll write a melody to it and some words.
• 8:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then I'll play it for David with or without the backing track.
• 8:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And he will write a brand new backing track.
• 8:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes we'll change it, well, we will change it completely.
• 8:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes it'll have a different vibe.
• 8:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the point is that that backing track inspires me.
• 8:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: It It gets me thinking creatively, and it lets me let go of the reins because I'm not starting from scratch, it's a tool I use.
• 8:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, David, however, a few days ago.
• 8:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kind of frown down upon this.
• 8:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would you like to throw that in here?
• 8:37
  David Kochberg: Frowned down is a loaded tur.
• 8:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you were, you were kind of having a bit of an attitude about it.
• 8:45
  David Kochberg: I was having an attitude about it, but it, it was more in the context of you being insistent that that's the, that was the only way that you could write at that time.
• 8:56
  David Kochberg: I, I don't, I I think it's a valid for sure, it's for sure a valid way to write songs because you've written lots of our songs that way.
• 9:05
  David Kochberg: So I don't have any problem with it exclusively.
• 9:08
  David Kochberg: It's, it's just that you were, because of the, the state you were in and kind of the low confidence in yourself, I just was taking issue with the kind of stubbornness of.
• 9:22
  David Kochberg: I was just trying to help like gas you up and break you outta your funk.
• 9:26
  David Kochberg: And I was trying to encourage you to remember, you can do all of these different things, but you were like, right now the only way I can write is such and such.
• 9:36
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 9:36
  David Kochberg: That was more so,
• 9:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: so you didn't like that, I was like being insistent that I needed this tool to write
• 9:43
  David Kochberg: Kind of.
• 9:44
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 9:44
  David Kochberg: However, I also recognize like if you, if one is in a zone of low confidence, then it's hard to just inspire yourself to act normal.
• 9:55
  David Kochberg: And so it is good to use a tool.
• 9:57
  David Kochberg: I think it was, there was just a lot of cross wires, like broken telephone between two people in the same room.
• 10:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, well let's not, let's, I don't wanna, yeah, just get in the weeds, right.
• 10:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't need to get into the weeds.
• 10:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: My point you brought up, my point is that I wanted to use this tool.
• 10:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So let's look at it this way.
• 10:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause I want us to start thinking mathematically.
• 10:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanted to use this tool.
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: The tool, in my opinion, did not hinder my creativity.
• 10:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: It helped my creativity.
• 10:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: It just gave me something to work with, and then the result is a great song regardless of how I wrote the song.
• 10:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: The result is, it was, I wrote a great song.
• 10:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, hold on.
• 10:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: One more thing I wanna say here is.
• 10:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: You a part of what you had said during that time.
• 10:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know your opinion's a bit different now, but David had the stance of being like, well, I just think like you were kind of saying like the, the.
• 10:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: He was kind of being a purist about it, right?
• 10:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's like, well, I just think like the coolest thing, like the, the highest level of songwriting is if you come up with something from scratch.
• 10:54
  David Kochberg: Sure.
• 10:54
  David Kochberg: I think what, I think you're kind of combining a few different conversations into one, but that is, but that, let's roll with that.
• 11:01
  David Kochberg: So, yes, I, I was arguing broadly about some kinds of tools where one can rely on those tools.
• 11:10
  David Kochberg: Either first or very early on before giving yourself a chance to come up with something new yourself I think what you're trying to talk about is maybe what we, what I was saying just about like a rhyming dictionary or a thesaurus or chat GPT or if you're like, let's say, I wanted to write a song about my favorite mathematical theorems.
• 11:30
  David Kochberg: Okay, great.
• 11:31
  David Kochberg: And I was like, oh, Pythagoras Pythagoria theory.
• 11:37
  David Kochberg: Py.
• 11:37
  David Kochberg: What's it?
• 11:38
  David Kochberg: Pythagoria?
• 11:38
  David Kochberg: Low floor, high ceiling.
• 11:39
  David Kochberg: Yeah, sure, sure.
• 11:41
  David Kochberg: Fermat's.
• 11:41
  David Kochberg: S uh, something Fibonacci.
• 11:44
  David Kochberg: And then, so we just write things down for 30 seconds, and then we hit a block, and then five seconds goes by and we're like, uh, let's just look on ChatGPT.
• 11:54
  David Kochberg: Bt like, suggest me some theorems that I could put into a song.
• 11:58
  David Kochberg: So my point was more about something like that, where instead of giving yourself the time to sit with the discomfort of not knowing where to go next.
• 12:09
  David Kochberg: And then pushing through that and then discovering somehow within yourself, maybe you have like a new idea that pops out.
• 12:15
  David Kochberg: Maybe it takes a few minutes of like having a blank canvas and you're not sure, and then something pops to you.
• 12:21
  David Kochberg: Giving yourself that time allows for creativity to pop out as opposed to if you, just very quickly when you don't know the answer.
• 12:29
  David Kochberg: Immediately go to, like someone else kind of suggests some answers to me, the purest part of it was that I would rather if, if the end result is to have a smash hit about mathematical theorems, then I would rather that those had just come from our collective creativity and experience that came out as a result of the writing experience and project.
• 12:52
  David Kochberg: As opposed to, we just got AI to summarize a bunch of them, and then we're taking those and like organizing them into a song.
• 13:02
  David Kochberg: It's less creatively, artistically satisfying to me.
• 13:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 13:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've, this is really good.
• 13:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause you've said a lot of good things.
• 13:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You, you've honestly, well, a lot of things that are just, it's, it's all the conversations we're having in math education.
• 13:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 13:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because first of all, it's really interesting that you ended on being like, but it would just be more satisfying to me if I had come up with it.
• 13:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Result versus process.
• 13:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what we're talking about.
• 13:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're saying regardless of the outcome, the process matters.
• 13:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, now here's the, the big problem though is it's so subjective.
• 13:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what you're talking about, that idea of instead of going to the rhyming dictionary right away, right.
• 13:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're writing the song about mathematical theorems.
• 13:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: For whatever reason, we spend 30 seconds just riffing on our favorite mathematical theorems.
• 13:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 13:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: We then get stuck.
• 13:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: We can't think any of anymore.
• 13:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: We go to chat GBT and ask for some.
• 13:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Versus we're writing a song about mathematical theorems and we just start without even thinking about it.
• 13:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're like, chat, just suggest some we're talking about, right?
• 13:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like those two things.
• 14:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what we're talking about.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this is really interesting because the cut just wrote an article introducing a term called Friction Maxing.
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And.
• 14:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm obsessed with it because the, the whole thing, what it's basically saying is it's made up this term friction maxing.
• 14:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what is it is, is increasing the tolerance for inconvenience.
• 14:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whoa.
• 14:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Increasing the tolerance for inconvenience.
• 14:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the example I gave was exactly what you're talking about.
• 14:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're writing a song, you need to write an email.
• 14:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Instead of going to ChatGPT right away try to spend 10, 20 minutes writing that thing that you're stuck with without cha g bt.
• 14:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I guess you're maximizing the friction.
• 14:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 14:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whatever.
• 14:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you can go to the tool.
• 14:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: So all of a sudden your window for tolerance for inconvenience becomes larger.
• 14:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're able to sit with it more.
• 14:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is exactly what we talk about when we talk about productive struggle in math class.
• 14:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 14:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is the exact same thing basically.
• 14:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 14:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like so great.
• 14:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: They've made up this whole new term actually really like friction maxing kind of sounds cooler than struggle.
• 15:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cool rebrand.
• 15:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Friction maxing.
• 15:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Friction maxing.
• 15:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I, but, and also I like, I like that, uh, call to action
• 15:09
  David Kochberg: sounds like a competitive sport.
• 15:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm, totally.
• 15:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're getting shredded, like your brain's getting shredded.
• 15:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like, and also just the idea of like increasing the window of tolerance for inconvenience seems like actually a very practical, uh, thing to do.
• 15:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Inside and outside of the classroom, like you need to do that in life.
• 15:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: You need to increase the window of tolerance for inconvenience and productive struggle anyways is the exact same thing.
• 15:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's the idea of let kids struggle because when you struggle, when you increase the window of tolerance for inconvenience, what will often happen is.
• 15:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: You will, like you said, have this moment where you're like, oh my God, wait a second.
• 15:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know how to do it.
• 15:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or, or you'll, you think you're stuck, but when you push past that, something will come up.
• 15:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you'll remember something from the past.
• 15:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: You'll try something new.
• 15:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then this leads to your last point, which is the satisfaction you get when you get an outcome that way versus just asking someone else for help or looking it up on ChatGPT, that satisfaction.
• 16:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not just satisfying, it's empowering.
• 16:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because all of a sudden you have ownership over that outcome.
• 16:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And when you Yeah, it's
• 16:13
  David Kochberg: a real sense of accomplishment.
• 16:13
  David Kochberg: It's
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: a, well, yeah, but not only is it a sense of accomplishment mm-hmm.
• 16:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It, it literally leads to more confidence the next time you're faced with a problem.
• 16:22
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 16:22
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 16:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because now you're like, but I did that last time.
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is why I think it's so important for us to be talking about outcome versus process and math for so long has been outcome oriented.
• 16:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: We just want the answer like, fucking just get the answer.
• 16:36
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 16:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: But when you do that, especially in today's world, we're now screwed because if you wanna just get the answer, if that's your goal, you can do that with, with by barely thinking at all.
• 16:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's all sorts of resources you now have.
• 16:49
  David Kochberg: Yeah,
• 16:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: and same with songwriting.
• 16:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just wanna tie it together here of if the outcome is simply a good song.
• 16:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have listened to some AI generated music that was amazing.
• 17:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did not know it was ai.
• 17:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 17:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we, you and I have different lines like you know, you to, you a rhyming dictionary is too far.
• 17:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: To me it's not, but writing lyrics with chat, GPT is too far for me.
• 17:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And AI generated music is way too far.
• 17:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas a lot of people listening might be like, I don't care if my music is at AI generated, as long as it's a good song, why would I care?
• 17:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think it's all things being equal.
• 17:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: If the outcome is to get a good song, if the outcome is to get the right answer, if you're going to do that anyways.
• 17:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 17:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're, you're, that is the expectation.
• 17:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm not just fucking around with songwriting and top lining being like, well, I don't care if I get a good song.
• 17:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do care if I get a good song.
• 17:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I mean?
• 17:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, I could get a good song.
• 17:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I could just go to ChatGPT.
• 17:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually ChatGPT really sucks at songwriting, but like.
• 17:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I could be taking all sorts of shortcuts right now, and I have to decide where the line is on what shortcuts I'm gonna take.
• 17:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've decided using a backing track will help me.
• 17:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Using a rhyming dictionary will help me.
• 17:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now I will, I will pause and think, try to think of my own rhymes first, but I have no problem using a rhyme rhyming dictionary if I get stuck.
• 18:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 18:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, using the tool of ChatGPT to be like, Hey, I wanna write a song about this.
• 18:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Gimme some, like, I wanna write a song about my ex and how annoying he is.
• 18:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, list some, some typically annoying things exes do that is, that's pushing it for me.
• 18:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not gonna feel good if I get a good song that way.
• 18:20
  David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
• 18:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Same with math.
• 18:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, no, you, you, you need to get the answer right.
• 18:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But is it gonna benefit you or the process if you got the answer by asking ChatGPT and writing it down or memo, right.
• 18:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, or yeah.
• 18:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: let's assume you're going to get the answer anyways.
• 18:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the goal of it.
• 18:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then when do tools help and hinder that and how do we treat the process?
• 18:45
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 18:46
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 18:46
  David Kochberg: Something else that makes me think of is that, that, that furthest extension of this.
• 18:53
  David Kochberg: Idea of, of AI music, just being someone can just go into one of those apps, type in a prompt, say, yeah, make me a pop country song about mathematical theorems and we should do that.
• 19:07
  David Kochberg: And it's like, you can say.
• 19:09
  David Kochberg: With a guitar solo.
• 19:10
  David Kochberg: Yep.
• 19:11
  David Kochberg: And with female vocals and lots of harmonies and, and you just, I mean, that's even more than what people put in.
• 19:17
  David Kochberg: But anyways, you can just type that in and then this program will just spit you out a like beautifully professionally produced sounding fabrication of a song and the average listener will have no idea.
• 19:29
  David Kochberg: Even me, I could listen to it and be like, wow, that sounds pretty good.
• 19:32
  David Kochberg: But, so I think that that is the thing in, in terms of.
• 19:36
  David Kochberg: What is the point of that?
• 19:38
  David Kochberg: Like all this AI slop, like that's filling our world, it's our mindless entertainment.
• 19:44
  David Kochberg: But in terms of talking, if, uh, ideally.
• 19:47
  David Kochberg: Education is about empowering an individual person.
• 19:51
  David Kochberg: There is to feel like, wow, feel like they can learn.
• 19:55
  David Kochberg: Like this is in a, it's maybe naive these days, but you this, you gotta hope, you gotta, you gotta pray for the world where you want kids to go through the education system learning, the things you're teaching them, but also learning how to learn and learning how to be confident in themselves that they'll be able to continue learning through the world and taking on its, its challenges.
• 20:18
  David Kochberg: It presents them.
• 20:19
  David Kochberg: So for, yeah, this is a bit this, this whole thing about being able to just manufacture very complicated things by a prompt is very concerning for everyone because it reduces the human ability, to learn things and figure things out.
• 20:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is such a tough one though, because I agree with you.
• 20:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like, like, yes, part of the goal of ED education is to empower, right?
• 20:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, yes, you're trying to get answers to thing, you're trying to learn content, but you're also trying to learn like the skill of what it means to learn and solve problems, right?
• 20:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like of your own accord with like with the, the tools you have.
• 20:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I do think we're there is this fine line because it's like, what is the threshold, right?
• 21:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like for example, it's like you are saying, yeah, but Vanessa, if you just push through and you thought of your own rhymes, like you, you know, you would, you would eventually move through it.
• 21:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You don't need that rhyming dictionary.
• 21:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like.
• 21:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 21:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 21:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll, I'll, I think it's important to like try to just like free because the act of freeing your mind enough that you're not so focused on the outcome that you can't get to the outcome.
• 21:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 21:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like sometimes you're thinking so hard about how to solve a problem or how to like make a chorus work.
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not gonna get there.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So being able to like let go a it and let those rhymes come to you, it's good.
• 21:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then I'm kind of like, yeah, if I haven't thought of the rhyme in like 30 seconds or whatever, if I'm stuck, I'll hit the rhyming dictionary.
• 21:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: But to someone else, they might be like.
• 21:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, like you're, you're giving in too early.
• 21:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what is the threshold?
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I think everyone has to decide, right?
• 21:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 21:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, and also we're, again, we are living in this world now, right?
• 21:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Where young people have access to these tools like calculators, like ChatGPT, this and that.
• 21:53
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 21:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Part of learning how to learn is learning how to use the tools at your disposal.
• 21:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually don't think it's their fault.
• 22:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like, it's like they're trying to learn how to use the tools at their disposal.
• 22:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: To get outcomes efficiently.
• 22:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like they're, they're clever in their own way, right?
• 22:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because they're like, oh, you know what?
• 22:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I could solve this problem by putting in this prompt.
• 22:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that is a form of intelligence, of course.
• 22:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, but by doing that, they're now missing out on developing this whole other skill.
• 22:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, shit.
• 22:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're missing out on the, on developing this whole other skill, right?
• 22:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Of like.
• 22:29
  David Kochberg: Yeah,
• 22:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's, it's really hard because I think it's like who gets to decide what that threshold it is?
• 22:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 22:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you know, we talk about this in math, takeaway like artificial intelligence.
• 22:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: We actually argue about, not argue, but there's a lot of perspectives on this when it comes to manipulatives in mathematics, right?
• 22:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like using, handheld tools, like not even electronic, right, but like arrays or blocks or like any of that kind of stuff.
• 22:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like there's so many things where I think educators for a long time have split.
• 22:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: They have differing views on, some people will say, well, manipulatives are hindering learning, right?
• 23:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kids need to abstract their thinking like they, and then there will be a whole other grouping, like, but that's a tool they have where they can make their thinking like physical and visual, and some people need that.
• 23:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like.
• 23:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: It.
• 23:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this is very much like when does the tool hinder and when does it help?
• 23:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 23:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because for me, that rhyme dictionary, sometimes I'll be flipping through the rhymes and I'll see a word that I was not even on my mind and it'll gimme an idea for a whole other vert.
• 23:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll be like, wait a second.
• 23:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I could like, mm-hmm.
• 23:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Talk about this other thing.
• 23:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 23:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: But yeah.
• 23:32
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 23:33
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 23:33
  David Kochberg: I, I worry that maybe this happens every time we talk about AI is that it like meanders and branches off into all these different tangents.
• 23:42
  David Kochberg: So I just worry maybe have I taken us too far off course?
• 23:47
  David Kochberg: Well, let's, the theme of the episode, no, no, because we're
• 23:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: almost, this is now the theme.
• 23:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like there's Oh, wow.
• 23:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause it all kind of weaves in like the idea of,
• 23:53
  David Kochberg: because initially you were saying how is mathematical thinking similar to song creative songwriting thinking,
• 23:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: right.
• 23:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 24:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think the part about like AI music, I just dunno how many people listening to this.
• 24:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm very curious if, listen,
• 24:07
  David Kochberg: maybe people don't even know about it.
• 24:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well know about it.
• 24:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like, I'm actually curious and I want you guys to text the podcast if you care.
• 24:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would you care if a song you were listening to, if you were like jamming to the song, you were like, I fucking love this tune.
• 24:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you checked, and it turned out the song was entirely written by ai.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: There was no humans on it.
• 24:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: The vocals are not human.
• 24:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, would you care, would it make you like the song less?
• 24:30
  David Kochberg: That's yes.
• 24:30
  David Kochberg: But in the context of this question, it's challenging because that's a, that's a question from the consumer perspective like we're talking about in terms of a, a student learning math.
• 24:41
  David Kochberg: We're talking about.
• 24:42
  David Kochberg: No, but I know how the, the, the shortcut of that it takes to make something or to get to an end result.
• 24:49
  David Kochberg: The question of someone appreciating a song as a listener differently if they know that it was made by a human versus by.
• 24:59
  David Kochberg: AI is a totally different question,
• 25:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: but I actually think it's not.
• 25:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 25:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I think teachers, I think teachers need to ask themselves that.
• 25:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think policy makers need to ask themselves that.
• 25:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think administrators need to ask themselves that, but about, about math.
• 25:13
  David Kochberg: About math, do you care?
• 25:14
  David Kochberg: Do you care if your student gets the right answer?
• 25:18
  David Kochberg: But through no real critical thinking, just through basically like outsourcing.
• 25:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you care?
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, and if you do care,
• 25:28
  David Kochberg: yeah.
• 25:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then we, we need to be asking again, as we keep asking, what is the purpose of math class?
• 25:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we really, what are we really trying to get?
• 25:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And is the means and the medium actually getting us there?
• 25:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you don't care, like no judgment either way, like, I'm actually just very curious because you will hear these conversations being like, no, like students have to get the right answer and, we just really care about outcome.
• 25:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also they have to show their work.
• 26:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you usually, the show their work is like to make sure they're not cheating or they're doing something the way we told them to.
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: But often, like, here's my question to you.
• 26:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you care if your student got the right answer?
• 26:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: They used the algorithm, you taught them, they followed the steps, you told them, so they didn't outsource it, they actually did that.
• 26:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 26:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But they actually have no idea what it means.
• 26:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 26:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And how they got there.
• 26:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you care or do you not care?
• 26:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I just think it's a good que'cause I actually think it's quite similar.
• 26:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like how much, yeah.
• 26:29
  David Kochberg: Are they gaining a deep understanding of what's going on or are they just.
• 26:33
  David Kochberg: Getting the answer or but following some memorized steps.
• 26:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and let me take it a step further actually.
• 26:38
  David Kochberg: Sure.
• 26:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here, this is this, here we go back on track.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is gonna tie it into the music question about whether or not you guys who are listening care about whether your music is AI generated.
• 26:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 26:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: This will tie it together.
• 26:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a lot of people saying, math skills are decreasing.
• 26:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like kids don't know what they used to know, we should go back to teaching math the old way.
• 26:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And one of the arguments against that is, okay, fine, cool, we could, but so many adults we know today hate math.
• 27:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 27:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: They hate math, but they do know their timestables.
• 27:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Some of them more than like allegedly.
• 27:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, allegedly.
• 27:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: So my question is.
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you care if your students get the answer?
• 27:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: They did it.
• 27:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: They followed the thing, they, whatever.
• 27:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: They know their timestables, but they hate math.
• 27:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do we care that they emotionally don't feel great about math, but they know how to do it?
• 27:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think that ties into the AI song thing because it's like, do you care?
• 27:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm really trying to tie it together.
• 27:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you care that there is no emotional, there's no emotion or confidence or growth or like anything around the music you're listening to?
• 27:43
  David Kochberg: Humanity.
• 27:43
  David Kochberg: What?
• 27:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Humanity.
• 27:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Human.
• 27:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: The humanity.
• 27:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's it.
• 27:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because to me, I'm like, that's where I draw the line.
• 27:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, I feel like I just, if I knew this song I was listening to and I was like, oh man, I'm feeling it.
• 27:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, and I realized it was just empty.
• 27:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know,
• 27:56
  David Kochberg: like AI just made this thing because it's built to predict what a human would make based on what humans have made.
• 28:05
  David Kochberg: This whole conversation is very complex and esoteric and in the weeds and very philosophical.
• 28:12
  David Kochberg: So it is interesting because.
• 28:14
  David Kochberg: That is an interesting question.
• 28:16
  David Kochberg: Do you care if, does a, a student feeling good about math, liking math, does that mean that they understand it?
• 28:24
  David Kochberg: Is, is does it matter?
• 28:25
  David Kochberg: Is a good relationship to math linked to understanding This is what hap this is what's more common in a lot of your conversations on the podcast, what is the connection between a satisfaction with mastery of the deep fundamentals of what you're learning?
• 28:42
  David Kochberg: Compared to just being like, there's also satisfaction in like, okay, I memorized what theorem, what equation to use when, yeah, I don't really understand it, but I can be satisfied by knowing I got the right answer because I did the thing correctly.
• 28:56
  David Kochberg: Even if I don't understand, that is satisfied.
• 28:58
  David Kochberg: That can s that can be good.
• 28:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that, and that's again, this goes back to, so this is hard.
• 29:03
  David Kochberg: There's still problem solving on your own accord based on what you have learned.
• 29:06
  David Kochberg: So everyone's.
• 29:08
  David Kochberg: Everyone learns differently.
• 29:09
  David Kochberg: Everyone's got different strengths and weaknesses.
• 29:10
  David Kochberg: What I think with the music thing, I remember when, even when just image generation first spread out all, all over social media, and then you've got people who are posting these things and essentially calling themselves artists.
• 29:26
  David Kochberg: There's all these people who are very adamant about.
• 29:30
  David Kochberg: AI art is the same as human art, and we don't have time to get into all of the issues around that.
• 29:35
  David Kochberg: It's, it's been 35 minutes.
• 29:36
  David Kochberg: That's what happens when we talk about ai.
• 29:38
  David Kochberg: But so the, the idea of someone, if you compare someone not having any musical training or knowledge or understanding of how music works, but you just type into it.
• 29:52
  David Kochberg: A, a program, gimme a song and it spits out a song, and then you say, you're a musician.
• 29:57
  David Kochberg: Oh, I made this thing, you oof, you didn't make it.
• 30:00
  David Kochberg: And then we're, here's the other thing, is the satisfaction of that will be so fleeting.
• 30:06
  David Kochberg: So fleeting, whereas you're not gonna
• 30:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: feel good.
• 30:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas
• 30:08
  David Kochberg: where it, it's just, oh, I made this thing, but you're not gonna go.
• 30:12
  David Kochberg: Perform it at an open mic.
• 30:13
  David Kochberg: You're not gonna go start a band and tour it and record it.
• 30:17
  David Kochberg: Well, it's already recorded, but if you make a song and you're like, this song is part of me and I externalized it and it's something I've made that I am proud of and means something to me.
• 30:31
  David Kochberg: There's, that's so different, and I do think that even on a subconscious soul, whatever level, people can sense the difference.
• 30:41
  David Kochberg: Between that,
• 30:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: that's deep.
• 30:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, yeah, there's so much, but probably
• 30:46
  David Kochberg: not a conscious level.
• 30:47
  David Kochberg: Not not on unconscious, but
• 30:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: on a soul level.
• 30:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it will matter.
• 30:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I think, but okay.
• 30:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we're going too far into this.
• 30:53
  David Kochberg: We that we've been, this is real and this is really, I really wanna
• 30:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: talk about so much more because the, the episode started with should do a part two.
• 30:59
  David Kochberg: Well,
• 31:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: do you guys wanna a part two?
• 31:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like is this too much?
• 31:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I feel like we're really, like they can't
• 31:05
  David Kochberg: answer right now.
• 31:05
  David Kochberg: Can
• 31:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: you guys text us and you want, because what I want this started with, how is writing.
• 31:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: How is mathematical thinking the same as pop sensibility?
• 31:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Part of it is this.
• 31:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 31:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 31:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Part of it is everything we're talking about, but there's a whole other part, which is about the formulaic nature of writing a song.
• 31:21
  David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
• 31:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And how,
• 31:23
  David Kochberg: yeah, that's the whole point we were gonna talk about is there actually is so much math.
• 31:26
  David Kochberg: We didn't even talk about Amy Allen.
• 31:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 31:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: We didn't even talk about Amy.
• 31:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's what we do.
• 31:31
  David Kochberg: What
• 31:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: as a cliffhanger.
• 31:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: We play, we play that clip right now and then say, do you guys want a part two where we talk about this clip?
• 31:39
  David Kochberg: But since we've got everything set up, we should just do part two.
• 31:42
  David Kochberg: After you
• 31:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: call, I have a phone call, but here's the thing.
• 31:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have a phone call with Jamie Mitchell and I actually think we should call him because he is.
• 31:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: An amazing math educator who loves ai.
• 31:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: His whole thing is ai.
• 31:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, let's not, let's call him live.
• 31:56
  David Kochberg: No, no, no.
• 31:56
  David Kochberg: That's gonna be a sonic mess, but just get him on the podcast down the road.
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, fine.
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, okay, so I think.
• 32:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how am I gonna play the clip?
• 32:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, you're gonna just insert the clip?
• 32:07
  David Kochberg: Well, we don't have to play the clip.
• 32:08
  David Kochberg: We can just, oh, you wanna play the clip?
• 32:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we should play the clip.
• 32:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 32:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So hold on.
• 32:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're well here.
• 32:11
  David Kochberg: Pull it up.
• 32:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to end this episode.
• 32:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to end the episode.
• 32:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I hope we talked about something
• 32:16
  David Kochberg: I, well, we talked about, we must have, we've been talking a lot, so.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think the focus of this episode, to be honest, was a little more on tools and like when do tools help and hinder?
• 32:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because even what you're saying at the end there about being like, well, we're all problem solving in our own ways.
• 32:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like if you've memorized formulas and you're trying to figure out what formulas to use when that is mathematical thinking, you're problem solving.
• 32:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I do feel like when I'm writing a song, I'm drawing on all these things.
• 32:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: First I do a thing, maybe I have a top line.
• 32:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm top lining something.
• 32:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've made all those lyrics myself.
• 32:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe then I get stuck on a chorus.
• 32:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So then I ask you to help me.
• 32:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now you've helped me.
• 32:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not my own thinking, but that spurs something in me.
• 32:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then you say something and I need to rhyme.
• 32:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: So then I look at the rhyming dictionary.
• 32:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's another tool that I'm using.
• 33:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then I get stuck on something.
• 33:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I listen to a bunch of songs I already know to see, like to get some melodies in my head that I got inspired by that.
• 33:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So then I write something else and it's like in all of these, none of these are pure.
• 33:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thought free from influence.
• 33:14
  David Kochberg: Absolutely.
• 33:15
  David Kochberg: And it is a question of to what extent should we be reliant on tools versus whe at, at what point are we the tool?
• 33:28
  David Kochberg: Oh, do you mean like, I mean, I, I said that'cause I knew it would sound cool, but it doesn't mean anything, but No, no, no, no, no.
• 33:34
  David Kochberg: I think it's good.
• 33:35
  David Kochberg: No, I think at, at what point are we overly relying on tools to the, to our own detriment versus, versus how.
• 33:45
  David Kochberg: Can we make sure to be responsibly using all of these tools while still to move us forward instead of hold us?
• 33:53
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 33:53
  David Kochberg: While still accomplishing, being productive and growing as people because that's what I do Worry.
• 34:00
  David Kochberg: About like society in general.
• 34:02
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 34:02
  David Kochberg: But then also for education, especially students, because students are growing up in this world.
• 34:06
  David Kochberg: They're so screwed.
• 34:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel so bad for them.
• 34:08
  David Kochberg: Like we know a time where we only could rely on our Yeah.
• 34:12
  David Kochberg: Uh, like we, there was no option.
• 34:13
  David Kochberg: I mean, you could get someone to write an essay for you, or you could like copy someone else's test, but you can't Yeah.
• 34:19
  David Kochberg: The idea that any stu no, no teacher can know how, uh, okay.
• 34:23
  David Kochberg: We, we have to stop.
• 34:24
  David Kochberg: We have to stop.
• 34:25
  David Kochberg: We have to stop.
• 34:25
  David Kochberg: Stop.
• 34:25
  David Kochberg: This is how every, we're stopping
• 34:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: this.
• 34:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: We started by saying, is math no?
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: By claiming mathematical thinking.
• 34:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is the same as pop sensibility.
• 34:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have three points.
• 34:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: The first was the role of tools in songwriting.
• 34:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: This idea of friction, maxing, productive struggle.
• 34:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: When do tools hinder more than help?
• 34:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because that you, when you ask any songwriter, they have a whole bunch, everything we're talking about right now they use and they use one another.
• 34:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: They collaborate.
• 34:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you guys as we, the point is I had two other points, which was the rule of creativity and.
• 34:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Point number three was the rule of math and what we think math is in both of these things.
• 35:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are gonna save those.
• 35:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 35:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I'm, here's what I want you guys to do.
• 35:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've got some homework for you.
• 35:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number one, I want you to go to one of your favorite songs.
• 35:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you to look it up on Spotify.
• 35:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you use Spotify, sorry to promote them.
• 35:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can use any platform.
• 35:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just know how it works in Spotify, where you can find the song credit.
• 35:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I want you to go to the song credits for any of your favorite songs, and I want you to go look at how many people created that song.
• 35:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go to the songwriters and see.
• 35:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are gonna find that almost any song out there that you're like, oh man, so and so wrote this.
• 35:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: They didn't write it, they wrote it along with a team of people using that as a tool.
• 35:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Collaboration is a tool.
• 35:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Other people are tools.
• 35:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I want you to go look at that right now'cause I think you're gonna be shocked.
• 35:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because again, we don't have time to talk about this now, but collaboration a thing that we are now trying to promote in math class because so many other countries and societies use collaboration as a tool.
• 35:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've looked at it as a solo sport in songwriting, the same thing.
• 35:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: You get a better product when more minds work at it, but that is a tool.
• 36:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I want you to go look at that.
• 36:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Second thing I want you to do, I told you guys to look up our band.
• 36:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Goodnight Sunrise.
• 36:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you to look up.
• 36:08
  David Kochberg: How many songwriters?
• 36:09
  David Kochberg: There were songs?
• 36:09
  David Kochberg: No, no.
• 36:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you to go look up the Velvet Sundown.
• 36:12
  David Kochberg: Oh,
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do not confuse the two.
• 36:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Velvet Sundown is an AI band.
• 36:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want you guys to go listen to them and check them out and tell me if you can tell that they are not real because I could not tell.
• 36:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then go listen to our band.
• 36:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Goodnight Sunrise.
• 36:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, number three, text us and tell us if you want.
• 36:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: To hear the rest of how mathematical thinking is like pop sensibility.
• 36:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause I do have a lot more to say.
• 36:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do worry that this is a bit in the weeds, but we're here now.
• 36:41
  David Kochberg: We're really gonna rely on texts to tell us if we could do this or not.
• 36:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, I think we just record the other.
• 36:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: We gotta really
• 36:47
  David Kochberg: pick our callouts.
• 36:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I think we need to know.
• 36:51
  David Kochberg: Fine,
• 36:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: just send us a text.
• 36:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can find the number in the show notes of whatever podcast.
• 36:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Listen,
• 36:56
  David Kochberg: let's know if this was any good and if I should not be on episodes.
• 37:00
  David Kochberg: No.
• 37:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 37:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um.
• 37:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: And tell us what your favorite song is.
• 37:05
  David Kochberg: Did you wanna, do you wanna play your, you tell us.
• 37:08
  David Kochberg: Tell us what your favorite song.
• 37:09
  David Kochberg: Do this?
• 37:09
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 37:10
  David Kochberg: Pick your, tell us what your favorite song is and look up who are the songwriters and what the songwriting splits in the publishing.
• 37:16
  David Kochberg: No, don't let that
• 37:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: up.
• 37:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: But honestly, look up, tell us what your favorite song song is.
• 37:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let us know what
• 37:20
  David Kochberg: key the song is.
• 37:21
  David Kochberg: Tell us what your favorite song is.
• 37:22
  David Kochberg: What and what
• 37:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: and how many songwriters there were
• 37:24
  David Kochberg: on it.
• 37:24
  David Kochberg: Is there a congratulations?
• 37:25
  David Kochberg: 'cause this
• 37:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: will actually help for the next episode if people want, when we can dissect some of these songs.
• 37:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And talk about the pop sensibility and how it's like math.
• 37:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to go.
• 37:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's your podcast.
• 37:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck.
• 37:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 37:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 37:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thanks for listening, guys.
• 37:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thanks for listening.
• 37:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, bye bye.
• 37:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, chaos.
• 37:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was actually chaotic.
• 37:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let me call Jamie because honestly like I'm so late to call him.
• 37:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's just see if he wants to say anything.
• 37:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, no.
• 37:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were supposed to play that clip as the cliffhanger.
• 37:58
  David Kochberg: Fine.
• 37:58
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 37:59
  David Kochberg: Now we're gonna play the clip of the cliffhanger that we didn't actually reference or talk about in the show at all.
• 38:04
  David Kochberg: However, it's, this is the reason we, Vanessa even wanted to talk about it.
• 38:09
  David Kochberg: 'cause I listened to this episode and I thought it was great and I told her to listen to it'cause it would help her and it took her five days and she finally did
• 38:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Explain who Amy Allen
• 38:17
  David Kochberg: is.
• 38:17
  David Kochberg: Amy Allen is a.
• 38:18
  David Kochberg: A highly accomplished songwriter who's co-written songs for Tap Harry Cry.
• 38:23
  David Kochberg: Harry, Harry Styles, uh, all sorts of, uh, yeah, I mean, those are two the biggest hit me, uh, Sabrina Carpenter.
• 38:30
  David Kochberg: And so, yes, she was on this, she was on a podcast called Switch on Pop, which I'm a big fan of.
• 38:35
  David Kochberg: Here we go, and here we go.
• 38:36
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 38:36
  David Kochberg: Wow.
• 38:36
  David Kochberg: But then you're gonna
• 38:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: just listen to this clip.
• 38:39
  Switched On Pop podcast: How many songs were you writing that year?
• 38:42
  Amy Allen: I am really bad at math.
• 38:43
  Amy Allen: That's why I got into songwriting.
• 38:44
  Amy Allen: But I don't know, like, so too many
• 38:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 38:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And there's another clip.
• 38:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Another clip.
• 38:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: One more.
• 38:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 38:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, the
• 38:51
  David Kochberg: chuckles.
• 38:51
  David Kochberg: The chuckles in the audience.
• 38:53
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 38:53
  David Kochberg: Everyone the knowing chuckles.
• 38:54
  David Kochberg: Ha ha.
• 38:55
  David Kochberg: We all hate math too.
• 38:57
  David Kochberg: Here we go.
• 38:59
  Amy Allen: No pre-course.
• 39:00
  Switched On Pop podcast: No pre-course,
• 39:01
  Amy Allen: right to the chase.
• 39:02
  Amy Allen: I
• 39:02
  Switched On Pop podcast: mean on, on one level.
• 39:04
  Switched On Pop podcast: It's very simple.
• 39:05
  Switched On Pop podcast: Mm-hmm.
• 39:05
  Switched On Pop podcast: Just sort of rolling.
• 39:06
  Switched On Pop podcast: Eighth notes.
• 39:07
  Amy Allen: Mm-hmm.
• 39:08
  Switched On Pop podcast: Simple pentatonic, melody.
• 39:09
  Amy Allen: Oh no, we're getting into math.
• 39:10
  Switched On Pop podcast: Oh, sorry.
• 39:13
  Amy Allen: I'm kidding.
• 39:13
  Switched On Pop podcast: But the phrasing, hear everyone
• 39:15
  David Kochberg: laughing.
• 39:16
  David Kochberg: Sounds like Amy Ellen has math trauma.
• 39:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we should get it on the pod.
• 39:19
  David Kochberg: Get on the pod.
• 39:20
  David Kochberg: We have to end this episode.
• 39:21
  David Kochberg: Goodbye, Vanessa
• 39:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Text us.
• 39:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love you.
• 39:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 39:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, lemme call Jamie.
• 39:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should I record you and Jamie talking?
• 39:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's just see what he says.
• 39:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's just like quickly see if this works.
• 39:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm late, Jamie.
• 39:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hey girl.
• 39:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're on the podcast.
• 39:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're gonna try and just put you, you're on the mic.
• 39:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so sorry to do this.
• 39:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I'm just so close to the mic.
• 39:41
  Jamie Mitchell: Gimme this.
• 39:42
  Jamie Mitchell: I didn't agree to a podcast.
• 39:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know.
• 39:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're not gonna really be on it, but we're just gonna record this in case it works because the reason I was late is.
• 39:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: We just did a whole episode that really went off the rails.
• 39:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was supposed to be about how,'cause we're rewriting our album.
• 39:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was gonna be about how pop sensibility is the same as mathematical thinking.
• 40:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But we've been talking a lot about how AI music, like even though the outcome of an AI generated song is a great song.
• 40:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: It.
• 40:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't like it.
• 40:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I then I had this call with you and then, sorry, this I'm really not explaining.
• 40:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, David is shaking his head at me.
• 40:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then, then I was like, this is, I was like, this is exactly like math.
• 40:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's like even if the outcome is the right answer, if you just asked AI to get it, like we wouldn't like it.
• 40:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I was like, oh my God, I'm late for my call with Jamie.
• 40:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: We should just get his opinion.
• 40:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause he loves AI so much.
• 40:33
  Jamie Mitchell: I do.
• 40:35
  Jamie Mitchell: Do you want my opinion now?
• 40:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kind of like, like, like just a brief, like I,
• 40:40
  David Kochberg: I cautioned against this, just so you know.
• 40:42
  David Kochberg: I didn't think that suddenly putting you on the spot on a phone call was the best way to discuss on a podcast, but hey, it's.
• 40:51
  Jamie Mitchell: Sorry, this is David.
• 40:52
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 40:52
  David Kochberg: Hello.
• 40:53
  David Kochberg: See, I'm, she's like, does he even know?
• 40:55
  David Kochberg: I don't even know.
• 40:56
  David Kochberg: Who is this?
• 40:57
  David Kochberg: Who, where, where are we?
• 40:58
  David Kochberg: What is happening?
• 41:00
  David Kochberg: Hello, I'm David.
• 41:01
  Jamie Mitchell: Um, I, I, I'm Jamie.
• 41:03
  Jamie Mitchell: Um, I do enjoy being put on the spot for spicy Hot Takes.
• 41:06
  David Kochberg: See.
• 41:07
  David Kochberg: All right.
• 41:08
  David Kochberg: Well, yeah.
• 41:08
  David Kochberg: Well, we're, we're recording.
• 41:10
  David Kochberg: You
• 41:10
  Jamie Mitchell: didn't, you didn't know that about me.
• 41:12
  Jamie Mitchell: Um, so, okay.
• 41:16
  Jamie Mitchell: What do I think about AI generated music and AI generated math?
• 41:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, like, idea is that the outcome is the same, like a great song is a great song.
• 41:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why?
• 41:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, I
• 41:29
  Jamie Mitchell: think it depends on like what, what the intent of the person who's asking the content to be created is, right?
• 41:38
  Jamie Mitchell: Like I could be great at writing lyrics and I might not have anyone who could write music for me.
• 41:45
  Jamie Mitchell: So if I write a beautiful set of lyrics and then I ask AI to set it to music.
• 41:52
  Jamie Mitchell: I, I personally don't fundamentally think that's a bad thing.
• 41:55
  Jamie Mitchell: That is like a proof of concept to me.
• 41:58
  Jamie Mitchell: Um
• 41:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: huh.
• 42:00
  Jamie Mitchell: Do you know what I mean?
• 42:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 42:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Keep going.
• 42:03
  Jamie Mitchell: Okay.
• 42:03
  Jamie Mitchell: So I think it's the same, it would be the same for me for math if I.
• 42:08
  Jamie Mitchell: I don't know.
• 42:08
  Jamie Mitchell: Let's say I'm trying to make a simulation for a game to collect some data to, to do like a, a project, but I don't know how to code up this in computer code or in a spreadsheet, but I, I'm, I'm still interested in it.
• 42:23
  Jamie Mitchell: I'm still engaged in it.
• 42:24
  Jamie Mitchell: If I can tell the AI what I wanted to do and know enough to evaluate if it did it properly.
• 42:32
  Jamie Mitchell: I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially if I'm using that to go deeper with math.
• 42:37
  Jamie Mitchell: Flip side of that, if I'm.
• 42:40
  Jamie Mitchell: Uh, AI write me a song and I don't do give any thought to it.
• 42:44
  Jamie Mitchell: I don't put any of my own creativity or my spark into it, and it just pumps out this soulless piece of music.
• 42:50
  Jamie Mitchell: Like those, I think those are two different things.
• 42:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 42:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I guess the question is who's right?
• 42:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do we have different thresholds?
• 42:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because like, I don't know, David, I don't think, do you agree with him with that song thing?
• 43:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you guys are the polar opposite.
• 43:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like David hates ai, like he hates when I even use like a rhyming dictionary.
• 43:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like he's like very concerned about ai.
• 43:14
  David Kochberg: well, there, there's lots of different layers with, with like with songwriting.
• 43:17
  David Kochberg: So the idea that you.
• 43:19
  David Kochberg: If you wrote all of the words, all the lyrics, then yes, for sure that's an original creation from you.
• 43:26
  David Kochberg: But then putting that, just putting those lyrics then as just text prompt into a song creator.
• 43:35
  David Kochberg: If you don't have musical ability, then it would be better for you to collaborate with other humans who do have those complimentary skills and then make an original piece of music that way, as opposed to just having.
• 43:53
  David Kochberg: A program or an algorithm, do all, all of the other stuff yourself for you.
• 43:58
  David Kochberg: I'm not explaining very well, but
• 44:00
  Jamie Mitchell: No, no, no, no.
• 44:01
  Jamie Mitchell: I, I totally understand what you're saying and I don't, I don't think I disagree with you.
• 44:04
  Jamie Mitchell: I think the more like, I think humans are important, especially when it comes to.
• 44:09
  Jamie Mitchell: Creative arts.
• 44:10
  Jamie Mitchell: Right.
• 44:11
  Jamie Mitchell: And I think math is a creative art.
• 44:13
  Jamie Mitchell: Um, but I, you know, when I think about the students that I work with, they don't necessarily have access to people that can play an instrument, but they might be very creative with.
• 44:25
  Jamie Mitchell: Their lyrics.
• 44:26
  Jamie Mitchell: And for, for some kids that would be the end of the road, right?
• 44:30
  Jamie Mitchell: Like, you know, they're, they're self-conscious.
• 44:32
  Jamie Mitchell: They don't wanna put themselves out there.
• 44:33
  Jamie Mitchell: They will, they write these things and they go nowhere.
• 44:36
  Jamie Mitchell: Um, or if, if they can, they can, they can at least make something musical to help them see their vision, which gives them a, like a stepping stone.
• 44:44
  David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
• 44:44
  David Kochberg: Well, I guess the other thing is then is what
• 44:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: about people who write with beats?
• 44:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like loops, like all the
• 44:50
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 44:50
  David Kochberg: Yep, yep, yep.
• 44:51
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 44:51
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 44:52
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 44:52
  David Kochberg: And that's why I'm not, I'm not like a puritan about it.
• 44:58
  David Kochberg: It, it is a preference for me and I do think I am also often speaking philosophically and thinking of a worse case scenario in terms of like, do, is humanity gonna over time rob itself of our inherent creativity if we keep sort of outsourcing it?
• 45:16
  David Kochberg: Because then another.
• 45:18
  David Kochberg: Like a devil's advocate thing could be so and totally fair about access to things and like, privilege can enter into it.
• 45:27
  David Kochberg: 'cause Yes.
• 45:28
  David Kochberg: What if someone cannot afford a guitar?
• 45:29
  David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
• 45:30
  David Kochberg: But if I'm, if, if like someone can get their hands on a guitar, let's assume even a piece of crap guitar then if you.
• 45:38
  David Kochberg: Can come up with some ideas for a song or some lyrics or melody, and then just shortcut by saying, Hey, write me a guitar based song with these lyrics.
• 45:50
  David Kochberg: And then you're like, okay, I wrote a song.
• 45:52
  David Kochberg: If this is something that's important to you and you're passionate about, would you then be like, well, I guess I should like learn how to play guitar, and then maybe learning how to play guitar over the course of years would be something that you've developed and feel proud of and allows you to, to express yourself.
• 46:09
  David Kochberg: Like that's, I guess, what my kind of concern is, like all things being equal, lets say it if, if we become too reliant on these easy shortcuts to get to something.
• 46:20
  David Kochberg: Then does it rob us of abilities to discover new things about ourselves?
• 46:25
  Jamie Mitchell: Mm-hmm.
• 46:26
  Jamie Mitchell: This has been my work for the past y you know, year and a half is working with teachers to get them over the, like the fear of ai, right?
• 46:34
  Jamie Mitchell: Like, it's not going anywhere.
• 46:36
  Jamie Mitchell: It's a reality we have to deal with.
• 46:37
  Jamie Mitchell: So what can we do to convince students of the exact thing you're saying, right?
• 46:43
  Jamie Mitchell: Like
• 46:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, it's,
• 46:44
  Jamie Mitchell: it's a tool that can suck all the soul out of everything we do.
• 46:49
  Jamie Mitchell: If it's used poorly, in it's worst case, that's what's gonna happen.
• 46:52
  Jamie Mitchell: But you know, there, there are also examples of students who've used it as a brainstorming partner, like a thinking buddy, and have enriched their own understanding of material.
• 47:04
  Jamie Mitchell: Just, just by having that extra outlet.
• 47:06
  Jamie Mitchell: Mm.
• 47:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 47:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think we should just have, do a full episode on this at some point with you.
• 47:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Obviously.
• 47:11
  Jamie Mitchell: I'm game.
• 47:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, great.
• 47:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I guess we should end this.
• 47:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, we should have,
• 47:15
  Jamie Mitchell: it's not like a job interview.
• 47:17
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 47:17
  David Kochberg: Like you, you passed the test.
• 47:19
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 47:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can be on the podcast.
• 47:22
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 47:23
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 47:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're ending this episode, but is this
• 47:25
  David Kochberg: conversation actually going on the
• 47:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: podcast?
• 47:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 47:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 47:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 47:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ja.
• 47:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: See, look, I'll say bye to Jamie.
• 47:29
  David Kochberg: Okay, great.
• 47:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 47:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: But don't hang up.
• 47:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye bye, Jamie.
• 47:32
  David Kochberg: Bye Jamie.
• 47:33
  David Kochberg: Bye Vanessa.
• 47:34
  David Kochberg: Bye.
• 47:34
  David Kochberg: This is just like every other episode ending.
• 47:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 47:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 47:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now over to me and Jamie.
• 47:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So sorry about that.