Latest / HEATED / Why smart people believe the myth that natural gas is clean

Transcript

Why smart people believe the myth that natural gas is clean · HEATED

0:00
SPEAKER_02: We've all heard of the constitutional right to free speech,
0:03
SPEAKER_02: the constitutional right to bear arms, and the constitutional right to due process.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: But have you heard about the constitutional right to buy gas?
0:15
SPEAKER_02: On November 3rd,
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Colorado voters will decide whether to enshrine the right to buy
0:20
SPEAKER_02: and sell natural gas into their state constitution via
0:24
SPEAKER_02: a ballot initiative called Amendment 82.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: If Amendment 82 passes,
0:29
SPEAKER_02: experts say its main impact would be to override most laws that seek to limit
0:35
SPEAKER_02: the use of natural gas for reasons relating to air pollution and climate pollution.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: The proponents of Amendment 82 say there's really little need
0:45
SPEAKER_02: for aggressive pollution laws around natural gas anyway,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: because natural gas, they say, is clean.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: It is a very clean fuel,
0:54
SPEAKER_00: and we have to remember when we say clean,
0:56
SPEAKER_00: there's all sorts of stuff that goes into the definition of dirty,
0:59
SPEAKER_00: let alone the definition of clean.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: That's Kit Pfeiffer,
1:01
SPEAKER_02: a spokesman for the Amendment 82 campaign,
1:04
SPEAKER_02: speaking on the podcast of Advance Colorado,
1:07
SPEAKER_02: the conservative advocacy group behind the measure.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Really, natural gas is by far and away the cleanest burning fuel you can have inside
1:15
SPEAKER_00: of your home.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: It is just producing CO2 as an effluent.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: It's also a clean way to generate power.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: This idea that gas is clean has already been written into law in other states.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: Ohio, Indiana,
1:30
SPEAKER_02: Tennessee,
1:31
SPEAKER_02: and Louisiana all have passed laws that count gas as clean or green energy
1:36
SPEAKER_02: for environmental policy purposes.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people believe this, too.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: A national poll released in July found that 50%
1:45
SPEAKER_02: of likely voters consider natural gas a form of clean energy.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: And 63% believe the fossil fuel is safe for public health when produced and used as intended.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: So really we can't dismiss this belief that natural gas is clean and healthy
2:02
SPEAKER_02: as something fringe or something that only really uninformed people believe.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: There are smart people who believe that natural gas is clean.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: So today,
2:12
SPEAKER_02: we're going to unpack what makes this idea so believable,
2:16
SPEAKER_02: what's actually true about it,
2:18
SPEAKER_02: what's critically missing,
2:20
SPEAKER_02: and how the gas industry has shaped how we all think about this fuel in ways
2:24
SPEAKER_02: that we might not even realize.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Heated, a show about climate change and the forces standing in the way of action.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm Emily Atkin.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: This season, we're debunking some of the worst climate myths plaguing society today.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: Today's myth that natural gas is clean energy.
2:43
[music]
2:48
SPEAKER_02: To help me break down this idea that natural gas is clean and safe,
2:52
SPEAKER_02: I've invited on Rebecca Lieber,
2:54
SPEAKER_02: a journalist who's been covering climate change and the gas industry for more than
2:57
SPEAKER_02: a decade, including at Vox, Mother Jones, and the New Republic.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: She's now an editor at PointSource News,
3:03
SPEAKER_02: a new publication from the Center for Climate Integrity.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And she recently co-authored a major investigation into how the gas industry created
3:11
SPEAKER_02: and sold the idea of clean natural gas.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Rebecca, thank you for coming on to Heated.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: It's great to be on.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: So I have to just straight up ask, can you define natural gas for us?
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Because it's my understanding we're not talking about the stuff
3:27
SPEAKER_02: that people fill up their gas tank with.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Natural gas is not the same as gasoline for cars.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: That's refined crude oil and another issue entirely.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: But natural gas itself is almost entirely methane.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Methane is a greenhouse gas.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: It's oil.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Over 80 times more powerful of a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide over a short-term period.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: It's currently the biggest source of our electricity system in the U.S.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: It's at about 40 percent,
3:58
SPEAKER_01: and it's now the dominant source overtaking the coal industry about a decade ago.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: It's also used for all kinds of things.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: People cook with gas, people heat their homes with gas and heat their water with gas.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: And it comes from this very controversial process that I feel like a lot
4:15
SPEAKER_02: of people don't realize that it comes from fracking, right?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So fracking or hydraulic fracturing is a drilling process that uses a mix of water
4:26
SPEAKER_01: and chemicals and pressure to break open rock and extract the gas from underground.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: And they're There are all sorts of effects that are associated with fracking
4:38
SPEAKER_01: that people might have heard about from affecting water quality to earthquakes
4:42
SPEAKER_01: and air quality.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: So natural gas not used for cars,
4:47
SPEAKER_02: actually used in our homes,
4:48
SPEAKER_02: power, electricity system comes from fracking and it's just methane.
4:53
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like people don't actually know that.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, no, I think a lot of people don't know.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's something I've come across in my own reporting and conversations,
5:02
SPEAKER_01: but also there's some polling to back that up.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: My organization,
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Center for Climate Integrity,
5:08
SPEAKER_01: partnered with Data for Progress,
5:10
SPEAKER_01: and they actually found that people at first,
5:12
SPEAKER_01: when you say natural gas, they were very favorable to it.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: So that's about 68 percent favorability.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: But if you then define what is natural gas,
5:22
SPEAKER_01: so a non-renewable fossil fuel,
5:25
SPEAKER_01: it drops a lot to about 45 to 60 percent of favorability and
5:31
SPEAKER_01: a lot higher unfavorable opinion.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Now, I think this is a main reason that natural gas has had such an advantage
5:38
SPEAKER_01: in public messaging because it combines this idea of natural,
5:43
SPEAKER_01: which is vague to a lot of people,
5:46
SPEAKER_01: with a gas that people don't necessarily know a lot about.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: And the polling shows this.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
5:52
SPEAKER_02: this is actually why I don't use the phrase natural gas in my reporting anymore
5:56
SPEAKER_02: after many years.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm using it for this episode because...
5:59
SPEAKER_02: That is the language of the claim that we're examining.
6:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, natural gas is clean.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: But I've switched completely in my reporting to just calling it methane gas,
6:11
SPEAKER_02: in part because that's what it is.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: It's methane.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: But also because of a 2022 article that you wrote for Vox arguing that
6:18
SPEAKER_02: the name itself kind of misleads people about what it is.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us a little more about why you wrote that?
6:25
SPEAKER_01: That story was inspired by a lot of conversations I had with people
6:29
SPEAKER_01: who didn't realize that when you turn on your gas stove,
6:33
SPEAKER_01: you are burning a fossil fuel in your home.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And it made me realize that a lot of people don't understand how that is connected
6:40
SPEAKER_01: to a much larger system, the natural gas system.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: So I was looking into a few things here,
6:47
SPEAKER_01: which includes the history of why we call this natural gas in the first place.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: There's a fair bit of myth-making that goes on into cultivating this idea of gas is clean.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: But it's funny,
6:59
SPEAKER_01: it was really named just to distinguish methane that comes directly from
7:03
SPEAKER_01: the ground instead of manufactured methane from coal.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: And there's some real advantages that just having natural attach confers to this product.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like it was not created by a PR firm or anything,
7:16
SPEAKER_02: but it just so happened to have a lot of,
7:19
SPEAKER_02: I guess, positive effects for the industry, positive connotations to it.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is a fair bit of luck here.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: If the oil and gas industry concocted the name natural gas,
7:30
SPEAKER_01: I have not found the evidence for that yet.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: But this favorable kind of connotation that the phrase natural gas gives a lot
7:38
SPEAKER_01: of people is a major reason why a lot of environmentalists have had this debate
7:43
SPEAKER_01: over time of saying, Right.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: And I remember that there is a Climate Nexus survey from 2023 that found that 77% of people
7:59
SPEAKER_02: So that's a 48% change in favorability for two terms that mean exactly the same things.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: The name is doing a lot of work here.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: But let's dive a little deeper into why people believe that natural gas is clean,
8:26
SPEAKER_02: because it's not just the name.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: Let's listen to this quote from Kit Pfeiffer,
8:30
SPEAKER_02: the spokesman for the Colorado Amendment we heard in the intro.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: It is a very clean fuel.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: And we have to remember when we say clean,
8:37
SPEAKER_00: there's all sorts of stuff that goes into the definition of dirty,
8:40
SPEAKER_00: let alone the definition of clean.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think so often we have a very narrow lens on CO2, which is an important lens to have.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: And we know why we have that.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: But we can often miss the more traditional pollutants,
8:51
SPEAKER_00: the mercuries and the benzenes and the heavy metals and all these things
8:54
SPEAKER_00: that actually do come along with things like coal and sometimes some oil extraction
8:59
SPEAKER_00: and stuff.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: So what I hear him saying is that like when it comes to mercury and benzene
9:02
SPEAKER_02: and heavy metals, methane gas, natural gas, it's better than coal and oil.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: So it's good.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: So how much of that is true?
9:12
SPEAKER_02: Just speaking about like those traditional pollutants.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he has some interesting points here.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: It's right that there are some traditional pollutants like sulfur emissions
9:21
SPEAKER_01: and mercury specifically that natural gas does a lot better on when you compare it
9:27
SPEAKER_01: to coal.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Natural gas,
9:28
SPEAKER_01: though, does produce And there's a lot of research spanning decades supporting that.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: One of the major pollutants to be concerned about is nitrogen oxides.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Gas produces this both outdoors and operations and also inside the home.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Elevated nitrogen oxides can be associated with all kinds of health problems,
9:50
SPEAKER_01: especially respiratory.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: But gas also produces another really important traditional pollutant,
9:56
SPEAKER_01: which is ground-level ozone, commonly called smog.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: This is something that the EPA is supposed to regulate,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: and the methane interacts with chemicals in the atmosphere to produce smog.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: So it is a contributor to worse air quality.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: So what does he mean when he says it's just producing CO2 as an effluent?
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Because it sounds like to me he's saying when you burn gas, it's clean burning.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: Is there truth to that?
10:42
SPEAKER_01: So he's right that burning gas produces less carbon dioxide than other fossil fuels.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: So when you look at methane compared to coal,
10:52
SPEAKER_01: burning it produces about half the amount per unit of energy when you compare it
10:57
SPEAKER_01: to coal.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's like about a third less when you compare it to oil.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: So that part is correct.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: But I think the idea that this burns cleanly and there's nothing else to worry
11:08
SPEAKER_01: about Isn't capturing the full story.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: Remember, just because gas produces less CO2, it doesn't mean it produces none.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: But also pure natural gas when it escapes from maybe pipes,
11:21
SPEAKER_01: from incorrectly installed appliances,
11:23
SPEAKER_01: that is releasing methane to the atmosphere,
11:27
SPEAKER_01: which causes a whole associated list of problems, including for climate change.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: First of all,
11:32
SPEAKER_02: that helps to explain why people might hear the phrase gas is clean and think that
11:37
SPEAKER_02: that makes sense if it's cleaner than all
11:39
SPEAKER_02: of these other extremely dirty fossil fuels.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: But there's also that argument that you're just touching on that gas is better for
11:46
SPEAKER_02: the climate than those fossil fuels as well.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: And that was a favorite argument of President Obama when he was in office.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: Here's him in 2014.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Natural gas.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: If extracted safely,
11:58
SPEAKER_00: it's the bridge fuel that can power our economy with less of the carbon pollution
12:02
SPEAKER_00: that causes climate change.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: What do you think of when you hear that?
12:06
SPEAKER_01: The bridge fuel talking point has been around for a really long time and Democrats
12:11
SPEAKER_01: and occasionally Republicans really love this argument that gas can be a bridge
12:16
SPEAKER_01: to renewable energy.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: So kind of implying this is something temporary that could be useful for a time
12:22
SPEAKER_01: while everyone is working on renewable energy.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And then it's phased out.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about massive liquid natural gas facilities being built
12:47
SPEAKER_01: to export gas around the world.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And these are expensive projects that put pipes in the ground.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: So the idea that you can just swap out gas
12:56
SPEAKER_01: for something else is not really what is going on here.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that idea that, look,
13:01
SPEAKER_02: we'll just temporarily install billions of dollars worth of infrastructure designed
13:07
SPEAKER_02: to last decades,
13:08
SPEAKER_02: designed to last 40, 50 years, and then we'll transition to renewables in 2100.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay,
13:16
SPEAKER_02: that's great, but climate change is not like a problem we can just never solve.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: It gets worse every year,
13:21
SPEAKER_01: you know?
13:21
SPEAKER_01: I think the timescale is a big piece here because what's rarely defined in talking
13:27
SPEAKER_01: about a bridge fuel is how long that bridge is.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Now we're talking about like permanent gas because
13:57
SPEAKER_01: the popular talking point today is carbon capture and storage for gas.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, that's a great transition into the next clip that I wanted to play for you.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Here are former Democratic Representative Tim Ryan
14:09
SPEAKER_02: and former Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu working for
14:13
SPEAKER_02: a pro-gas organization called Natural Allies for a Clean Energy Future.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Here it is.
14:19
SPEAKER_03: As we're going into Earth Day,
14:20
SPEAKER_03: I think it's really important for people
14:22
SPEAKER_03: to recognize how much natural gas can help us reduce emissions by displacing coal.
14:29
SPEAKER_03: One of the many benefits of natural gas in our domestic supply is
14:34
SPEAKER_03: that we can also export our natural gas.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: And as we provide natural gas more in the United States and abroad,
14:43
SPEAKER_03: we can eliminate international coal.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: That's a huge difference.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about that.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: What is true about that?
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So like we're talking about,
15:07
SPEAKER_01: gas does produce less CO2 per unit of energy compared to coal and oil.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: So as a pure substitution, you're talking about less carbon emissions.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: But methane is a very potent greenhouse gas that's even more powerful,
15:22
SPEAKER_01: about 80 times more powerful than CO2 in about a 20-year period.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And what we see as our gas system keeps growing,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: the data actually shows
15:32
SPEAKER_01: that Natural gas is pushing up carbon dioxide emissions around the world.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: I think if we're looking at it that way,
15:39
SPEAKER_01: as opposed to a pure substitution effect or this counterfactual of,
15:44
SPEAKER_01: well, if we had just built out all this coal, we'd be in a much worse place.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: That's a very different way of looking at it compared to how gas is responsible for gas.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Rising emissions around the world.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: It's like, yes,
15:59
SPEAKER_02: gas did help the U.S.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: reduce its emissions when coal made up the majority of our energy supply.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: So like, yes, the bar was in hell and we have raised it.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: We're doing better than we were when we were burning coal.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: But just because we've lowered emissions,
16:16
SPEAKER_02: it doesn't mean that we're on a track that scientists say is going to lead us to
16:21
SPEAKER_02: a safe climate.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Those are two completely different.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: And it's my understanding that like gas is not just keeping emissions high today.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: It is helping push emissions higher.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: The International Energy Agency said that globally gas was the biggest contributor
16:39
SPEAKER_02: to the increase in energy-related CO2 emissions in 2025.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: And the IPCC has said that gas has contributed to the largest increase
16:47
SPEAKER_02: in global fossil CO2 emissions in recent years.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: So when they say more gas equals less pollution, it's like clearly missing a couple of steps.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's lots of studies that have started pointing out that when you look
17:01
SPEAKER_01: at various gas operations,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: if you account for that methane leakage, it can perform worse than coal.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: So methane is so potent that if you have even a little bit leaking
17:11
SPEAKER_01: from your operations, that really undercuts any advantage that gas has.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: I want to talk quickly before we move on about what Mary Landrieu and Tim Ryan said
17:22
SPEAKER_02: about the idea that natural gas,
17:24
SPEAKER_02: if we export it overseas, it can replace international coal.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that sounds really appealing, right?
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Because that's where mostly coal is being used across the world.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: If we take our gas from the U.S. and we just export it, it'll solve that problem.
17:41
SPEAKER_02: What do you have to say about that?
17:43
SPEAKER_02: Anything?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a point I've heard before.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think the idea that this is replacing coal, it can be questionable.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Depending on the circumstance,
17:53
SPEAKER_01: we've seen parts of the world turn to U.S. exported gas as opposed to, say, Russia.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: So it can be a one-to-one replacement there.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: But LNG specifically,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: so liquefied natural gas, which is the process you need to actually export that gas.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: You have to turn it into a liquid before you can put it on a ship and Send it over.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: And not just that, once it gets to its destination, you have to turn it back into a gas.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: So both sides of this are really energy intensive operations that require a lot
18:25
SPEAKER_01: of energy just to do this.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: So that is not happening for free.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: There's lots of demand on fossil fuels just to export it to other countries.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: So the gas is not just teleporting from here to another country.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely not.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Some research from Bob Howarth,
18:43
SPEAKER_01: for example,
18:44
SPEAKER_01: at Cornell,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: he found that exported gas,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: because of all these different issues and its energy intensity,
18:50
SPEAKER_01: actually can make it worse than coal.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: So again, whether this is really a solution to coal is called into question.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it should also just be said that the people making those arguments,
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Mary Landrieu and Tim Ryan,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: are paid massive six-figure salaries from the gas industry
19:06
SPEAKER_02: to be making those arguments.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: Another thing, too,
19:09
SPEAKER_02: I just want to bring up is that the idea that exported gas could be replacing coal,
19:15
SPEAKER_02: it's like, yeah, that could be true.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: It's also been shown that in some places it's replacing renewables.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: And there's research that shows that if you build more gas infrastructure in places
19:25
SPEAKER_02: that could have had renewables,
19:27
SPEAKER_02: it will crowd out that potential investment in renewables.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: So you won't see renewable investment in places that would have added if gas moves in.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: And that has the increased risk of delaying long term the transition
19:39
SPEAKER_02: to actual low carbon energy.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: All right.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: Before we move on, is there anything else that the gas is clean arguments are leaving out?
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we talked a bit about what gas does inside the home.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: There's also lots of research connecting emissions from gas to various health concerns.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: I think one area that worries me is the
20:18
SPEAKER_01: The link to cognitive effects and dementia,
20:21
SPEAKER_01: that this is having effects on people's brain health as well
20:25
SPEAKER_01: as cardiovascular system and lungs.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: And one area around gas that surprised me a lot in my reporting is that carbon monoclonal.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Monoxide is a huge issue when it comes to gas.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: People, I hope,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: have carbon monoxide detectors in their home,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: but this is not really a regulated space.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: And what I found from scientists is these are not often picking up lower levels
20:48
SPEAKER_01: of carbon monoxide.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: There's a certain bar it has to reach for them to set off.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: And there's research showing that even lower levels can be damaging to health.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: So that was one piece of my past reporting that really surprised me here.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Every day I look at my gas stove and I'm like, I need to get rid of this.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: So I feel like we've established
21:08
SPEAKER_02: that there are some real facts underneath this claim that natural gas is clean,
21:13
SPEAKER_02: right?
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Like it does produce less pollution than coal when you burn it.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm still kind of just left with this question of why do
21:45
SPEAKER_02: so many smart people still believe that gas is clean and safe and harmless?
21:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like 50 percent of people in that poll said that they think
21:56
SPEAKER_02: that natural gas is clean.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: It can't just be because they simply refuse to listen to reason and are stupid.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: No, it's more complicated than that.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: And this was really a driving question of a big investigation I worked on
22:10
SPEAKER_01: with Rebecca John, who's a investigator and freelancer in the UK.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: We were looking at this question of,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: What was the oil and gas industry's role in creating this idea that gas is clean?
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And what was their knowledge that it wasn't?
22:25
SPEAKER_01: So to find an answer to this question,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: we read probably thousands of pages of studies and archival documents,
22:33
SPEAKER_01: conducted interviews, read lots of scientific studies and filed FOIA requests.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: And what we found is that in the industry's own words,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: they knew that gas was a pollution problem,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: that they knew that Going back to the 1960s,
22:49
SPEAKER_01: at least, that gas was an air pollutant issue.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And they knew a little while later that this was also a serious climate pollutant.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And that despite this knowledge,
22:59
SPEAKER_01: they created this campaign to promote and maintain this idea that gas is clean in
23:04
SPEAKER_01: the public.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's talk receipts or maybe let's just take it from the beginning.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, when did you find that the gas industry started promoting the fuel as clean?
23:16
SPEAKER_01: So the name natural gas was around for a while and industry certainly recognized
23:20
SPEAKER_01: that this was a big advantage.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: But there was a concerted campaign starting around the late 1960s into
23:27
SPEAKER_01: the early 1970s where the industry really leveled this up.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: We found documents from the American Gas Association's firm, J.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Walter Thompson,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: describing this campaign in depth,
23:40
SPEAKER_01: that they created this slogan, gas,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: clean energy for today and tomorrow,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: and spent millions on advertising in all kinds of situations.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Some
23:57
SPEAKER_01: of the context leading
23:58
SPEAKER_01: into this campaign why they started this massive effort was
24:03
SPEAKER_01: because they were finding in their own internal polling
24:06
SPEAKER_01: that they were actually facing some perception problems from the public.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: That the public, according to their polling, thought gas was a polluting source.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: They were associating it with pollution and in some cases thought it was worse
24:20
SPEAKER_01: than oil or they thought it was dirtier than electricity,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: which at the time was powered by coal, but that was gas's main competitor.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So the gas industry recognizing this problem,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: they hired PR advisors and this advertising firm and they looked to a campaign
24:37
SPEAKER_01: that would correct the public's perception of gas.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we see this massive effort that the industry created that it
24:46
SPEAKER_01: then just built upon over the decades that came because they also found in
24:51
SPEAKER_01: the polling we read that this was really successful in convincing the public
24:55
SPEAKER_01: that this was a clean energy source.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: But in a way, it was kind of true, wasn't it, though?
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Because if their main competitor was coal and they had to get out the messaging
25:04
SPEAKER_02: that gas was cleaner than coal,
25:09
SPEAKER_02: then, I mean, we've established that that is technically true.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's not really a lie.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Did it ever transition from just accurately marketing the product as better
25:19
SPEAKER_02: than coal to something more nefarious?
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So the industry didn't actually think this is totally true.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean, they didn't
25:31
SPEAKER_02: think it was true?
25:31
SPEAKER_02: They didn't think that what
25:32
SPEAKER_01: they were saying was true?
25:34
SPEAKER_01: So the American Gas Association had hired this advertising firm,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: J. Walter Thompson, to do this campaign.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And J. Walter Thompson itself,
25:43
SPEAKER_01: in its docs,
25:44
SPEAKER_01: recognized, quote,
25:45
SPEAKER_01: the lack of clear,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: simple, substantiating facts on the pollution aspects of natural gas.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: This quote was a recognition that they didn't actually have
25:54
SPEAKER_01: the support backing up what they claimed that gas was clean.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: While industry executives were saying this is true,
26:03
SPEAKER_01: gas is clean,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: we have all the facts,
26:06
SPEAKER_01: there are lots of ways that they undercut themselves, that they actually recognized.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Now, I can lay those out because they go back to the early 1900s,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: actually, of what the industry did know.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: But in even crafting this campaign,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: industry was aware that there were pollution issues associated with gas.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: Can you give us some concrete examples of like stuff that
26:33
SPEAKER_02: the gas companies were saying privately,
26:35
SPEAKER_02: acknowledging privately versus what they were saying publicly?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: So all the way back in 1907,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: gas executives were discussing in their own meetings,
26:44
SPEAKER_01: we have actually transcribed minutes from that time,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: where they're acknowledging that incomplete combustion
26:50
SPEAKER_01: of gas produces carbon monoxide.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: And they recognized even then that this was a poison.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: But going further into time,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: there's other private acknowledgments from industry on the effects.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: So there's studies that the American Gas Association was involved in or commissioned
27:07
SPEAKER_01: through the 70s and 80s that were looking at gas stove pollution,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: specifically in indoor air pollution.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: And then there were also a series of studies that the industry commissioned
27:20
SPEAKER_01: that acknowledged that Gas was also leaking in large quantities or that methane from
27:26
SPEAKER_01: the gas system could be detected by So one
27:31
SPEAKER_01: of those early examples is this 1968 American Petroleum Institute Commission report
27:36
SPEAKER_01: from the Stanford Research Institute where they were detecting methane in
27:40
SPEAKER_01: the atmosphere.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: There is Shell acknowledging in its own document in 1966
27:47
SPEAKER_01: that its operations were causing gas to be liberated,
27:50
SPEAKER_01: quote, in embarrassingly large quantities from oil fields around the world.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: And then we have also a study from a gas R&D group in 1979,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: finding that in addition to lots of layered and vented methane from oil
28:08
SPEAKER_01: and gas operations, that they were also finding...
28:13
SPEAKER_01: So this
28:18
SPEAKER_01: was all acknowledgement that methane was being released and detected
28:22
SPEAKER_01: in much larger quantities.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And this was a time that in the scientific space
28:28
SPEAKER_01: that there was increasing evidence around all of the different effects of methane
28:33
SPEAKER_01: that we've been laying out here.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: So how did that differ from what they were saying publicly?
28:37
SPEAKER_01: So publicly,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: they were not acknowledging all of these risks of gas,
28:42
SPEAKER_01: that gas had climate problems, that it had air pollution problems.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: It was presenting a much more simplified case that gas is the solution to all these issues.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: Sounds like you're saying that
28:54
SPEAKER_02: the gas industry itself has just been fueling various forms of marketing since
28:59
SPEAKER_02: the 60s and 70s when it really started to ramp up.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: How do you think we see that today and how do you think it's affecting our discourse?
29:06
SPEAKER_01: So the very idea of a bridge fuel,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: that phrasing was introduced itself by the gas industry in 1988.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: There were various ways that the American Gas Association
29:18
SPEAKER_01: and other related gas groups were promoting gas as a climate solution.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: So they introduced this idea to the public in this Washington Post article talking
29:27
SPEAKER_01: about gas as a bridge fuel.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: So that's one way they literally wrote the script for this myth-making we're still
29:35
SPEAKER_01: in today, what we still hear as common talking points from politicians.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: Natural gas also has become part of this kind of culture war issue and more politicized.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: So this Colorado initiative that you were talking about,
29:49
SPEAKER_01: that itself is part of this political backlash to an effort over the past few years
29:55
SPEAKER_01: of phasing out new gas hookups in some cities and that this idea that gas is
30:01
SPEAKER_01: under threat.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: But really, when we look at the situation today, gas is not under threat.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: It's growing and it has this Almost permanent fixture in our economic
30:13
SPEAKER_01: and political landscape that it's growing in dominance, not shrinking.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: In a lot of ways,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: this is similar to a famous story about the tobacco industry where they misled
30:25
SPEAKER_01: the public on the dangers of smoking, all to sell more tobacco.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Here we have companies that have misled the public on the dangers of gas,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: and it's to build out this greater gas system.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: I think the conversation would be different
30:41
SPEAKER_02: if we didn't have other viable alternatives to natural gas, right?
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Like electric stoves,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: induction stoves,
30:47
SPEAKER_02: heat pumps,
30:48
SPEAKER_02: electric heating,
30:50
SPEAKER_02: as renewable energy like solar and wind gets cheaper and cheaper
30:53
SPEAKER_02: and batteries get better and better.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: I think it's becoming less and less credible to say
30:58
SPEAKER_02: that gas is our only reliable option that we can use.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: I think they have to have this messaging that says it's clean so
31:06
SPEAKER_02: that it can still compete with The much cleaner, much cheaper alternatives.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: The whole idea that gas could ever be a transition,
31:27
SPEAKER_01: what was really baked into that assumption was that we would have the policies
31:31
SPEAKER_01: in place to ensure that renewable transition.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: And without those in place, we are seeing gas is actually competing with renewables.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not competing with coal.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think just calling gas is clean.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Gas is a climate solution.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: These kinds of talking points,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: it just flies in the face of all climate science today that we need to do a lot
31:52
SPEAKER_01: of things very urgently to scale down our emissions, to actually Yeah.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard any scientists saying it.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: Where I'm hearing it is from spokespeople for pro-gas legislation who are sponsored
32:29
SPEAKER_02: by fossil fuel industry dollars or former Democratic politicians who are,
32:34
SPEAKER_02: again, sponsored by fossil fuel industry dollars.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: I would bet a pretty penny that most people who are painting natural gas as
32:42
SPEAKER_02: a climate solution somehow derive power or profit from that industry.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: So if someone came into this conversation thinking that gas was a clean fuel,
32:53
SPEAKER_02: what is the one thing that you hope that they would remember
32:55
SPEAKER_02: the next time they hear it?
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I think I would just leave people with realizing that many of our Political
33:00
SPEAKER_01: and policy assumptions about gas today,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: how much of that is built on a very intensive industry messaging effort
33:09
SPEAKER_01: that goes many decades through studies,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: through co-opting regulation and obstructing oversight.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Like how much that has shaped these assumptions we have today.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'd leave people with.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: All right.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: What I would leave people with is where are the Maha Moms?
33:26
SPEAKER_02: I want to see the Maha Moms on this right now.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: All right.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Rebecca Lieber, thank you so much for joining us on Heated.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm Emily Atkin, and this is Heated.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: We'll be back with another myth debunking episode soon.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for your support.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: Please like, follow,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: and subscribe to all the Heated things and elevate your status by becoming
33:51
SPEAKER_02: a paid subscriber.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.
33:55
[music]