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Transcript

"Your Dream Will Arrive" with Bestselling Debut Novelist Laurie L. Dove · WriterCon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: and everything will notch intok place, Hang in there.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: winning author of the want ln Files book series.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining us.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: All right, first off, as we record this, we still
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: have three spots left at the writer Con retreat at Kingbrake,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: and I would love to see you. Yes, you take
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: one of them, or two or possibly all three. Okay,
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: maybe that's excessive, although who knows, you might have friends
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: and at any rate. At the retreat, we are going
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: to take a deep dive into your or whoever's theirs
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: work works on progress is that the plural that works
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: in progress, or possibly even your works in planning. We'll
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: have group sessions where we talk about all kinds of
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: various topics of interest chosen by the participants. We'll have
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Laura there, plus three other speakers who are going to attend,
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: including a fantastic agent who will meet with every single
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: person there. I mean, if you want to, we're not
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: going to force it on you, but here's a chance
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: to have a one on one with an agent that
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: you're not likely to get otherwise. Fantastic aguent two sales
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: books all the time, and then we will break into
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: smaller groups. You can get feedback from a number of
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: people who, over the course of the five days will
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: come to know your story almost as well as you
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: do future beta readers maybe. Plus, the food is superb
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: and Cane Break has been beautiful, So you know what's
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: holding your back. If you're ready to take the next
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: back big step toward publishing, here's your chance. Laura, what
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: have I left out?
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: Well, you talked about all the good work we do,
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: but we not only work hard, we also play hard.
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: So you have to remember that there are hikes that
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: we can go on.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: Bill and I definitely utilize the pickleball core last year.
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: That was so much fun. There's a pool, which I
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: don't think we didn't.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: We're definitely trying that this year, because I don't think
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: we got in the pool last year.
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: There are walks. I went on a morning walk every morning.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: I saw bunnies and I saw deer, and there are
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: birds everywhere.
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: It's just beautiful and relaxing.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: And we also had that cookout one evening out by
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: the pool.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Very I hope we did that a great jobs taking
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: care of me.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: You did mention the food, but that was particularly fun.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: I can't I'm looking forward to it so much. I'm
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: so excited about it.
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: I've got right a concert on because he cool.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: Jesse, what is your excuse for not being there this year?
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: I mean it just won't well, it will be okay,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: but still well, we probably double our attendance if the
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: renowned sound engineer and James Patterson disser Jesse Uorrish was
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: going to.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Be there, both a nerdy reason and a social justice reason.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: During those dates, I'll be going to Seattle to see
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: a live D and D role play show, and then
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: going directly from that trip to Stillwater, where I helped
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: co run a program called the any Town Leadership Institute,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: where we have thirty to fifty teenage delegates and we
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: teach them about issues in the world and how to like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: you know, a fight for them and whatnot. So two
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: red eye flights and then spending a week with teens,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: which is why I will not be it.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: All right, we'll let it slip this time. I'm proud
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: of you.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: For doing that, but only the young I'm I'm glad
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: I'm going to be at Cambrake relaxing by the pool.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the few benefits of the few reasons
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I do it. Not because one because I like, you know,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: helping educate the next generation, but also so I know
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: what's cool these days, so it's good.
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, you can bring it back and share with That's.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: How I first discovered Lizzo. It's how I first discovered
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: what's her face?
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Give us a hint, Sabrina Carpenter.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Why am I blinking on her name? We're going to
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: add this part out.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Uh hold on, do itraight.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Troblone, Yes, of course. Yeah, like right before, like rebfore,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I was everywhere these teams were like, yeah, this is
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: this is our jam.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: I'm like cool, nice okay people. That was officially the
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: last commercial this year for the retreat. From this point on,
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: we're focusing on the writer conconference, which of course is
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Labor Day weekend at the Hilton Scurvin in Oklahoma City,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: And as it happens, we have one of our keynote
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: speakers with us today, Laurie L. Dove, who scored a
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: huge success earlier this year with her debut novel, Mask
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: of the Dear Woman, which is a thriller set on
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: a Native American reservation with indigenous characters, hit the USA
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Today bestseller List and a bunch of others virtually the
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: instant it was released, and the reviews are fantastic. Lurie's
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: an award winning journalist with a master's degree in Creative
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Writing and literature from What's Oh Yeah, Harvard, and we'll
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: be talking to her about all that and much more.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: But first the news news story number one, which is
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: actually the only news story today. We are going to
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: take a deep dive into the world of AI and
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: how it will, and in some respects already has impacted writers.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: I know some of you probably feel like every day
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: is a deep dive into AI because it seems like
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: all a lot of people are talking about. But there
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: were so many relevant stories this past week I thought
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: we should just pile them all together and try to
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: make some sense of it, particularly now when we've had
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: two major legal decisions. I would have thought, and I
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: did go to law school technically, and technically I am
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: a lawyer, I would have thought it was obvious that
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: allowing AI programs to scrape copyrighted works to train the
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: program was improper unless you have permission from the copyright owner.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: But two courts have now said it was permissible, at
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: least under some circumstances. In this most recent case, brought
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: by an AI company called Anthropic, the court ruled that
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: using copyrighted works, even some that were downloaded I mean
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: millions that were downloaded illegally from pirate internet sites, fell
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: under the category of fair use, which basically, to cut
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: to the chase, means you can do it. Laura, how
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: does that make you? A writer who probably wrote some
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: of that copyrighted work.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: Feel completely disagree with the decisions on this, but lately
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: I just kind of live in a constant.
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: State of outrage.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: That's making me numb to everything, to be honest, especially
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: when it's been pirated.
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: Unbelievable.
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: We've been hearing so much about Shoot, we just watched
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: an interview on an episode of John Oliver where he
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: talked about AI slop AI is producing so much garbage lately,
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: and the fact that they are stealing the work from
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: people who worked very hard in order to train them
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: to try to do better. It is in curiating and
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: it does absolutely feel like theft. And I don't know
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: how anyone could rule that this is okay. We've all
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: probably at this point seen the leaked comments from I
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: think it was meta meta somebody who said, well, we
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: can't pay all those people, it wouldn't be cost effective,
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: so let's just deal it and deal with that side. Yes, yes,
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: that sounds completely fair.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Well, here's what happened, and this is not in dispute.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: Anthropic has acknowledged it. They downloaded millions of copyrighted books
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: in digital form, obviously from pirate sites. They also purchased
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: some books, no info on how many, but according to them,
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: they bought actual paper books and rip the covers off
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: and fed the page into a spanner, creating digital files.
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  Speaker 3: The point that they were trying to achieve was to
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: amass a central library and this is a quote of
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  Speaker 3: all the books in the world to retain forever end quote.
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  Speaker 3: So what the judge ruled was that, Well, the judge
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: said that they acquired at least five million copies from
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: places like I'm not going to say the name of
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: these pirate sites. You figure it out for yourself. You
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be pirrating books anyway. The point is they got
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: at least seven million books from various pirate sites. And
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: to be fair, although the court said that using those
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: books to train its program was somehow fair, use, creating
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: a central library went too far. Jesse, I don't really
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: see the difference to you.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: No, I'm very confused because, like as someone who when
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: they were younger and had less money did pirate things
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: that was a crime. And the fact that they are
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: pirating things, and I actually went to the sites that
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: you did not mention, and you can on this one
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: site you can download it's like an eighty eight terabyte
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: file of just every notchiction book that they had.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: It probably wasn't even hard to download all those books.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, it takes some time. It's a big file.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: But like it specifically said to be used for lllms,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: for you know, large language models. I don't understand this,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Like there are rights, we have copyrights we have. You know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: if libraries can only give out two versions of an ebook,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I don't understand how that's allowed. Yeah, they're not allowed
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: to buy more ebooks at a regular price, but people
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: can just download every book to make an aim model.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: This doesn't make any sense to me.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: I had the idea that maybe book pirrating was diminishing,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: because once upon a time, it seems like, you know,
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: when you get the Google alerts reports your name, about
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: half of them were pirate sites. But I haven't seen
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: that in a long time. But maybe they just don't
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: want my books anymore.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I'm with you.
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: I had that same feeling.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: It felt like I was hearing much less from writer
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: friends about discovering their books on pirated site.
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: So I was with you.
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: I thought maybe we were kind of trending down. There's
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: so many ways to get books that isn't akin to
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: stealing them that I thought maybe we were learning as
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: a collective culture.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Well. The AI problems, of course, aren't just focused on
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: word based things like books. Another controversial aspect of AI
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: are the programs that generate images, although that's still of
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: importance to writers because those images are usually based on
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: some well known intellectual property. Like Disney Characters or Star
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: Wars or something like that. Disney and Universal have now
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: sued a company called mid Journey. You've probably seen their
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: work around if you've been on social media. This is
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: the first time Hollywood companies have taken any kind of
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: legal action against these programs or the makers of these
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: programs that generate images. But you can see why Disney
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: owned Star Wars and like, for instance, Jesse, the graphic
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: I sent you on this story has Darth Vader and
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: it's all generated by AI our Trek of course, same
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: thing that you know. Are you seeing a lot of
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: ap doctor Trick images?
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of weird Like I was
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: actually more Lord of the Rings than Star Trek things,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: but AI videos of like if Star Trek was I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: don't know, like a Western or if the Star Trek
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: was I've seen a lot of if Game of Thrones
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: was like a hillbilly show, and I was like, why
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: why are we doing this?
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean I mentioned Star Trek because, of course,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: I think the fandom has been huge to keeping that
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: franchise alive. Take it from the guy who remembers the
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: Great Interregnum the ten years between in the first series
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: of the first movie, and it was fan fiction and
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: stuff like that that was keeping it alive. So I
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: think the attitude with the owner's paramount has always been,
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: you know, as long you can write stories, you can
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: make films, you know, new episodes of the series, as
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: long as you're not making any money off it or
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: doing it for commercial reasons. But is this the same thing?
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Is this just going to be people playing around and
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: keeping the franchise alive again?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why they're spending so much energy and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: time on creative things when they could be spending all
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: this time making a products that make our lives easier.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I stopped trying to make it easier for me to
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: organize my emails, make it easier for me to make
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: a to do list that tracks where I am, and
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: whynot stop trying to make art? But well here, yeah,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: our art is sexy and flashy.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Well here's the thing. I mentioned fan fiction because that's
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: been so important to not just star Trek a lot
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: of franchises. And a new controversy is that a Reddit
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: user I'm not going to say this name either, but
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: he scraped twelve point six million fan fictions from an
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: online repository called Archive of our Own and uploaded the
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: data set to hugging Face, which is a company that
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: hosts AI software that was discovered by the Reddit community
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: and they've been griping about it ever since. Now, fan fiction,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: of course, is something that you usually cannot sell for profit,
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: and you don't you don't own the copyright, at least
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: to the characters. So is this the same or is
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: it still offensive that people are feeding this stuff into
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: their AI Jesse, what do you think you have such
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: a troubled expression on your face.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I just hate. I hate that we exist in a
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: space where they're just we have leaders who don't understand
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the technology so are afraid to try to regulate it,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: and we have companies with billions of dollars that just
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: need to create more billions of dollars to make their
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: stakeholders happy, and no one's we can't have the conversation
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: about what is the point of this?
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Speaking of politicians and technologies and social media, there's TikTok,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: which was supposed to have, you know, been banned if
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: it wasn't sold, but it hasn't yet. And book talk
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: has been enormously important in promoting books. But now you've
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: got a wave of people on TikTok accusing other authors
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: of using AI, either to conceal the fact that they've
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: plagiarized a plot or to feed tropes into a formula.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: We've got people on TikTok now who are actually taking
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: videos of themselves editing a manuscript to prove that they've
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: done it themselves, you know, rather than an AI. Laura,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: you're the writer. Is this appalling or is it smart?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Or are you going to start doing it? What do
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: you think?
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: No? I don't like when anybody just hops on a
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: bandwagon and starts complaining. I saw something online about people
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: were convinced that if you use an DASH, it must
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: have been written by AI. I think you have to
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: at least know what you're talking about. That's nonsense. So
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: when people who don't know what they're talking about, I'll
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: just kind of run after something. I don't think that
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: it ends well. I don't mind that they're against AI.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: Have someone I have someone I'm friends with who is
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: working on a book and came to me and was
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: complaining about a co worker who didn't. According to my friend,
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: they wrote something with AI and they were putting it
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: out there, and friend was concerned that it was going
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: to be an overnight bestseller, and I'm well, well, and
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: I get that when we are working hard at our
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: craft and we see somebody who just kind of churns
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: something out overnight and is like, there we go, I'm
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: just going to throw it out there and see what happens.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: It's not something that they've actually made, and I understand it,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: but of course I've been keeping eye on it, and
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: it's it's not going anywhere. I think that the idea
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: that there's a backlash against the AI is not a
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: bad thing. But I would say don't just start attacking authors,
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: especially if you don't know for sure.
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: Just don't. If you think that it's not a well
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: written book, just don't buy it. Don't read it.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Don't And if you think that it might have been
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: something turned out by AI that it might be, just
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: don't read it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: You know, you can.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: Say, you can even review it, you can say this
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: didn't read well, it didn't feel good to me, I
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: didn't enjoy it, not a good experience. That's fine, but
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't I want to attack an author and start
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: accusing them of things without knowing for sure, yeah.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: You wouldn't. But I'm shocked. But I think that these
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: kind of flame wars do occasionally happen on social media,
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: and that's probably not going to end. I like the
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: bottom line Jesse gave it because I think there probably
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: are some things that AI could do that would make
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: our you know, short of becoming sky Neet and taking
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: over the world, there are probably some good practices, but
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: keep it away from art. We don't need computers competing
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: with writers or visual artists or anybody else. Let's let
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: art be art.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard enough for artists to make a living
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: these days.
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Why are these tech nerds and I am a fellow
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: tech nerd, but why are these tech nerds being like, yeah,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I'm going to create this thing to get rid of artists.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Why what did they do to you?
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we're all on.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: It because they can't do it anyway. All right, enough
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: of that craft corner. In this episode, we're going to
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: be continuing this great series John Myers has given us.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: We've done two previous and this third installment is about
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: using real life experiences in your fiction. The pros and
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: be careful the cons as well. Take it away, John.
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: Craft Quarterer He everybody, Welcome to writer CON's Craft Corner.
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: I'm John Myers. I'm half of Write Better Together. The
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: other half is Emily Brooks, my business partner. She and
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: her husband are preparing to have a baby, so she
• 19:16
  Speaker 6: won't be here today. Speaking of Emily, she and I
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: hosted a webinar last month called Dipping into the Well
• 19:23
  Speaker 6: of your Life for inspiration living a life worth writing about.
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: There are things that I want to talk to you
• 19:28
  Speaker 6: about today that you can dip into the well of
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: your own life and use them. I'm going to talk
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: about memoir, but they apply to fictional characters as well,
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: and you'll see why in a second point. Number one
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: is your story isn't about who you think it is.
• 19:43
  Speaker 6: People set out to write a story, the memoir, and
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: I got news for you. This is why it's better
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: when Emily's here, because she'll break it to you more gently.
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: Unless you're Oppenheimer or Barbie, you might not have done enough,
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: something big enough to write your life story. Some of
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: you have. Some of you are doctors who have discovered
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: things or had a life changing recovery from something. So
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: some of you do, but a lot of us don't. However,
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: to use a fictional example, none of us have ever
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: made meth or sold meth like Walter White and breaking Bad. However,
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: we do have common experiences. We all know what it's
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: like to not be able to pay a bill, or
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: how am I going to take care of my family?
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: How am I going to recover from this disease. So
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: even though we don't cook and sell meth, there are
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: things in Walter White's life that we can connect with
• 20:37
  Speaker 6: our readers. And so that's my point number one. Your
• 20:39
  Speaker 6: story isn't about you. It's really about your readers. You
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: want to find the things that will impact your readers
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: because they've been through them too. Point number two, your
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: most powerful moments aren't the moments you think they might be.
• 20:53
  Speaker 6: We've all been around someone who scored the winning touchdown
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: at state in high school and now they're fifty yearyears
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: old and they're still talking about it. We've heard that
• 21:02
  Speaker 6: story and we know that story. There's no surprise, there's
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: no conflict, and more interesting moment would be we lost
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: at state because I was the star quarterback and I
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: wasn't allowed to play because I was in detention because
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: I skipped school with my girlfriend and we were making
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: out underneath the bleachers. Now that's a story. You're not
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: the hero, but everyone has had a failure at an
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: important moment in their life and they can relate to that. Finally,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: number three, sharing your pivot point isn't as easy as
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: you think it is. Emily and I both teach college students.
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: From time to time, we'll have students right about a
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: pivot point they've lived through, and it'll just be I
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: was on spring break, we left home, got on the plane,
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: we went there, had a great time. There's no specific
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: intimate moment, but a pivot point has you were one
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: way on Tuesday. Pivot point happens you're another on Wednesday.
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: So I decided what my major was going to be
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: the freshman year at college. That's not a pivot point.
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: The pivot point. The interesting thing is I still had
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: an undeclared major in college and I was tired of
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: washing dishes at Applebee's.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I slipped the dish.
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: Broke, I cut my hand open, had to have thirteen stitches.
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: I'm done working at Applebee's. I'm going to go after
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: my dream and they're my major. That's a pivot point.
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: So there are things that you can do, real moments
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: from your life that can emotionally impact your reader. Thanks William,
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: Laura and Jesse.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, John Myers. Now let's talk to
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Laurie el Dove. Laurie el Dove, Welcome to the podcast.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you're here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: and everything will notch into place. Hang in there.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: That is so good to hear, because I've been doing
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: this for like thirty five years and I'm still waiting
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: for all colallesce. It makes sense to me, But I'm
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: going to take your word for it, because after all,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: you got a creative writing degree from Harvard for Pete's sake, right,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: so I'm not bad. And then you had several other
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: careers before writing. You're an award winning journalist, right.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I am, And this writing this book was always the dream.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So to come back full circle and at fifty to
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: get a master's degree have this book published by one
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: of the Big five. It was literally a lifelong dream
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: come true.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and great results when it came out to some
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: of the best reviews for a debut novel or any
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: novel I've ever seen. And we'll get to that in
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: a second, I promise. But I also wanted to ask
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: you about teaching. You're also teaching right.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Too, and I love it. I'm teaching in a couple
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: of different ways. I am an adjunct professor at a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: local university, and I love to teach creative writing and
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: media writing. I did that for a long time, and
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: I love the energy and hopefulness and gumption that my
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: students bring to what they're passionate about, and I tell
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: them follow that, follow those passions, even when it doesn't
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: always look like you might have an economic driver to
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: go full steam with it. Been there, follow it anyway.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: But the other thing that I'm looking forward to is
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: teaching at Writer Con Yes later this year, So I'm
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: very excited about that. I love talking about books and
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: writing and it is literally my favorite thing to do.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're going to be our keynote speaker on Sunday afternoon,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: if I recall correctly, and doing some more teaching too.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Do you remember what some of your other topics are.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that I want to talk
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: about is really, I think kind of a new concept,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: which is the concept of a literary thriller. And I
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: think in some ways that's where my book falls. And
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I've been reading a lot of books that I think
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: fall in that area too, So I think it's an
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: interesting marriage of a couple of different styles that we're
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: really seeing an upswell of right now. So I'm looking
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: forward to diving into that.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll be there for that session because I
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: think you're totally right. All right, I've made people wait
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: long enough. Tell us about this fantastic debut novel, Mask
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: of the Dear Woman, Thank you Well.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: It is centered around the idea that to find a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: missing young woman, the new tribal Marshall, must first find herself.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: So Carrie stars at rock Bottom. She's an ex Chicago
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: detective who has left the force and left the state
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: after the death of her teenage daughter. She returns to
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the reservation in Oklahoma where her father was raised because
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: the tribe needs a new bureau of Indian Affairs Marshall
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: as much as she needs a place to kind of
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: reset and get herself together, but she's immediately embroiled in
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the case of a college woman from the reservation who
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: is missing, and she really falls into that investigation that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: leaves her drowning and memories of her own daughter, the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: girl that she failed to save. And while she feels
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: in this place that she thought would welcome her, she
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: can't catch us a glimpse of this figure who is
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Dear Woman, and she cannot shake the feeling that this
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: fearsome spirit is watching her, following her. But what she
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: doesn't know is whether Dear Woman is here to guide
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: her or to seek vengeance or the lost daughters that
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: star can never bring home.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, that sounds so interesting, and I suspect that
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: your decision to set this on a reservation was very intentional.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Can you talk to us a little bit about what
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: themes you were exploring there and why you went that
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: route it was.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I started writing this book without really a plan for
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: the type of book I was writing, but what I
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: did have were these big questions, and for me, it
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: began as an exploration of identity and belonging. I'm adopted
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: by Mennonite farmers in Kansas, but my birth family is indigenous,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and I started with those big questions through this fictional
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: character on this fictional reservation, what might this look like
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: for this character from all sides. And along with that,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I have several daughters, and they're the age where they're
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: going out in the big wide world and they're courageous
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: and they're doing all of their own things. But I'm
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: still a mama, and so all of those worries I
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: think I kind of channeled into this book. And while
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I was researching it, I came across some really shocking
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: statistics about missing and murdered Indigenous women. Not that I
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: was unaware that this is an issue, but I was
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: shocked at the prevalence of it, and the prevalence of
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: it in Oklahoma specifically. So that felt like a really
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: important thing to hopefully be able to build some awareness about.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Fantastic, excellent. I'm so passionate about women's issues. I've got
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: to read this book. It sounds just like my thing.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Well, you've sold one already, so this is a successful interview,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: I would say, of course, since I'm the thriller guy,
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: I'm going to bring out that despite the serious background
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: issues which are very present. The reviews I read compliment
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: you on what a page turning thriller it is, as
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: suspenseful and laden with plot twists. How do you come
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: up with that stuff?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I found that after I wrote the first version of
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: this book, which really grew out of a short story
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: that I had already written them in. I was leaving
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: clues for my future self as I was writing, So
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: then it was really a matter of going back in
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and recognizing those moments and layering in more tension, more suspense,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: more mystery.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: Very interesting. So this one started as a short story
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: that's happening. And then, how how do you think you'll
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: approach novels moving forward? Are you like Panther Planner? Do
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: you like to outline what is your process?
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I am all of those things because I am very
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: passionate about being experimental in writing, and I am obsessed
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: with other writers' routines, so I will try them on
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: for size. If someone gets up early and writes first thing,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: you know, before the sends even up, I'll try that.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: If they're doing that late at night, I'll try that.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Whatever it is, I'm on board, so I suspect that
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: every time I write a book it will feel a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: little different in terms of routine. The first one came
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: to life as a short story, and I did it
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: all backwards. I wrote the ending first, then I wrote
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: the rest of the story, and when I was done
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: with that, I knew that this character, Carrie Starr, had
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: a lot more to explore. She was complicated, complex, not
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: always likable, but there is something about her that feels
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: so real. And I was really excited then to be
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: able to kind of break that short story of part
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and apply it as a framework for this first novel.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And long before I was even done with this, I
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: knew there was so much more of her life to
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: explore that I'm happy to say it's now a series.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: The second book is with my publisher, and I'm really
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: excited to see where she goes next.
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: I love that.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: I love telling people there is no one right way,
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: and I like hearing you echo that that whatever works works,
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: go with it. Whatever works for someone I think is
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: what they should do, and no one can tell them
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: it's wrong.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Well, we are not immutable, and I mean that in
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: the best possible way. We're meant to grow and change
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: and try things on for size. And even if you
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: find a routine that really works for you, it may
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: not work for you later. So that's my failure. That's
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: an expansion.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: That's love it. I can't wait to meet you. I'm
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: so glad to write con love it.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I am too, I'm so excited for it.
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: What does a typical writing day look like for you?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I'll leave out the dread and panic. No, I'm just kidding.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I'm actually having the time of my life, so there
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: really isn't much of that. But I it involves a
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: lot of dog So I take these writing breaks and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: like pester my dogs or my children in between. But
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: it looks like trying to get a solid four or
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: five hours in of writing. And because I was a
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: journalist for so many years, I do write pretty quickly.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: What slows me down are the decisions because instead of
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: covering a story or covering events that have already happened
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: or can kind of predict what might happen, every decision
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: is available for me to make in these books. And
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: that was really the first thing I had to learn
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: to grapple with. And for that, I realized that instead
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of my old approach, which was, you know, sit down,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: get the words out, no matter what else is going
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: around me. I can focus and do that. But what
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I learned with this is I need a ROOMI or process.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I need a lot of time to think, to cast
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: those thought auditions in my head about well, if I
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: make this decision, where does it lead? Conversely, where does
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: this other one lead? So that's what it looks like.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: That's great, fantastic this one. The story is developing as
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: you are writing it. You're not discovering it, you're actually
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: producing it, and so it is different.
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: I also find that if I give myself room.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: To breathe, that I will have more ideas that I
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: probably wouldn't have thought of if I had just knocked
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: it out really quickly and gotten it out there.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: So I think, I think you and I are gonna vibe.
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: I think weird.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I think so too. Yes, I really do. That sounds
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: very familiar to me. And I have found in this
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: sort of experimental process throughriting the first one that that
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: has really been key for me, that time to kind
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: of let thoughts marinate.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Yes, very nice, fantastic. What are some things you've learned
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: kind of along the way, something that you might share
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: with our aspiring authors.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing that I learned is something
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: that you have heard a lot and will continue to
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: hear a lot, hopefully, and that is don't quit. There
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: are times in life when you may be forced to
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: set it aside. We're always coming up against competing priorities,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: which is normal and natural, and change is the one
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: constant will probably all experience. But just don't stop entirely.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Come back to it, even if it's a few stolen
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: minutes that you make for yourself. But come back to
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: it and keep coming back to it. And even when
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you're in the middle of a story and you're thinking,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know where this goes, or maybe I know
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: where it goes, I just don't know how to get there,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: keep going. Sometimes you just have to do a thing
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: so that you can learn how to do a thing.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Well. I love that, since that's virtually the writer com theme.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: You can't fail if you refuse to quit. So perfect, Yes,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I love that. So one last question, which I think
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: I already know the answer to, since you said this
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: is going to launch it, this book is going to
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: launch a series, but what are you working on? Now
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: and what and when can we expect something new.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Cry of the Raincrow is the second book in the series.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: It's with my publisher now we'll see that in twenty
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: twenty six. I am currently writing a third book and
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: a fourth standalone. I'm working on a screenplay just for
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: my own fun. I like to be prepared no matter
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: what happens, and I'm just exciting to be so fully
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: immersed in the world of books and book people who
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: are the best people. And I am truly having the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: time of my life.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: Oh that's so great to hear, Laurie. Thanks so much
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: for being on the podcast.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It has been a joy.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: We'll see you in August at writer Con. Thanks so much.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Good bye bye. Now, just a few parting words because
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: I got nothing to talk about now. I promise there'd
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: be no more commercials about the Cane Break Writer's Retreat,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: which is on July sixteenth to the twentieth, and you
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: can learn more about that at the website. But the
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: conference is definitely coming up this Labor Day weekend that's
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: August twenty ninth through September one in Oklahoma City. Learn
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: more about that on the website too. And hear more
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: from the wonderful lari El Dove Lara. What are you
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: looking forward or to most this year, writer, con I'm.
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: Still thinking about the retreat.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'll ask you a week.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to meeting all the new people and
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: seeing all of our returning friends. I just watching this
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: family grow. It just makes my heart so happy. Last
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: week ye the best, and I think this year will
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: be the best.
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: Every year is the best.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: We are growing. Our number is even this far out
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: from the conference are up from last year. So I
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: think we're gonna have a good conference.
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: It's just like a great, big family reunion for me
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: every year. I love it.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm excited to be back at the Scurven.
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: So oh yeah, that'll be fun too. Bigger space, more room.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: We probably won't be scrambling quite so much to make
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: sure there are a few seats in the sessions that
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: get overstuffed.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Have I told you yet that we're gonna have more
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: sessions this year, like maybe six instead of five. You're
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: gonna need more microphones, Jesse.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I need to talk to your people about that. Let's
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: get on top of the ball this time, like I
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: should have to be running around all day.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesse records all this sessions and then they're made
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: available to people who attended the conference afterwards, so you
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: can listen to them over and over again, all thanks
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: to you, Jesse.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Listen, I'm just excited. The servin also has a hot tub,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: so let's go.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: They do have at dubs, all right. See, the excitement
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: is already starting to.
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: Build, doubling like a hut.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, until next time, Keep writing, everybody, and remember, like
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Laurie was telling you, you cannot fail if you refuse
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: to quit. See you next time.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: That dos Aran stand