Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Interview: Leading Events Under Pressure: How to Navigate Risk, Complexity, and Uncertainty with Deborah Caldwell
Transcript
- Convene Podcast Transcript Convene Interview, ep. 29 *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene Podcast. Today, we’re exploring what it really takes to lead events when uncertainty isn’t the exception—but the norm. My guest is CEMA Summit speaker Deborah Caldwell. Deborah is Asia Pacific Head of Global Events at Bank of America, overseeing a team of event planners based in five countries, covering 12 markets across the APAC region. In this conversation, we talk about leadership under pressure—from navigating crisis moments like market disruption, extreme weather, and rapid change—to building strong contingency planning into every event. We also explore what it means to operate across APAC’s cultural complexity, how to balance governance with creativity, and why communication is one of the most critical—and underestimated—skills in event leadership. We start now. Hi, Deb, and welcome to the Convene Podcast. Deborah Caldwell: Hi, thanks for having me. Magdalina Atanassova: I'm starting with the hard question. You were planning events for Lehman Brothers and were there during a period that reshaped the financial industry. How did that experience change the way you think about risk contingency planning and preparing for the unexpected? Deborah Caldwell: Yeah, I mean, wow, that was quite the experience to go through and quite an experience to go through quite early in my career, actually. I'll tell you a story about Lehman and the moment when we found out the news that Lehman would be no longer the company as we knew it. I was actually planning a five city, five day event where I was going to be traveling to five different European cities on the Monday when we were in the office and we were told, please pack up your desk, you no longer have a job. Fortunately, the first city was London and that's where I was in that moment though. And you know, there was total chaos and madness and no one knew what to do and what's happening. I remember very distinctly sitting at my desk and knowing that I had a huge amount of clients waiting to attend an event for the next week. And I had to act and think, what is the right thing to do here? And so it was a really interesting process to go through how we communicated with all of our vendors, how we communicated with the clients, even though people were literally packing up their boxes and leaving and just walking out the door. So I knew at that point, even though I had never imagined something like that had happened, it was a great lesson to know that, you know, sometimes these things are so unexpected and what are your core values and how are you going to behave or act in that moment? I think what I've taken into the rest of my career is that contingency planning has to absolutely be built into the operating model and Again, not that I think I ever would have come up with a contingency for that scenario. Although, you know, we. We were expecting something to happen. Not quite that. It really is important that these things are thought about at the start. And, you know, I think, you know, we're always talking as a team around not just trying to imagine all of the outcomes, but what are the real risks and what are the things that we really have to stay focused on to make sure that we know how to pivot when perhaps assumptions change. Magdalina Atanassova: So what has all of that taught you about leadership under pressure? Have you changed the way you approach your teams and your clients? What have you observed? Deborah Caldwell: Preesha has really sort of taught me about remaining, you know, trying to really refine those skills around remaining calm, being able to deliver clarity to the team, and also being able to make decisions under pressure. And, you know, unfortunately, I think you only get better at these things by going through those tough moments. It's not about having all the answers immediately. And as I said, you could never think of every outcome, but it's really about creating clarity when things are moving really, really quickly. I'm not perfect at it, but I really try and focus on thinking about tone and how I am communicating. I think some of my team will sometimes say to me, oh, you sounded really serious in that moment. And I think it's actually just a dramatic change of tone when I really need people and the team to be focusing on what truly matters, from safety to judgment in that moment, the client impact, and really what we need to do for execution to get the job done. There are so many instances, and I know that other event planners listening will also always be thinking about their moment or their stories from when they've had some really, really tricky times. And the stories that come to my mind is dealing with a situation going live with speaker and a very visible leak coming out of the central chandelier in the Ballroom of Water, which I was sort of thinking, how am I gonna stay calm here? But the show had to go on. So, you know, that was, again, an early lesson. Just last year, we had to pivot a huge conference, a couple of thousand people overnight into hybrid experience because we were faced with a typhoon here in Hong Kong. And in that moment, really focusing on, is everybody safe? Okay, how can we get the team here to deliver safely? What options do people have or what do we need to. To support them through that? And then how we're going to communicate as quickly as we can and as simply as we can to all of the Various stakeholders and all of the people involved. And those two are very memorable. And there was another one when we were doing a dinner in a desert and very unexpectedly, the wind came up very, very quickly and within half an hour we were serving dinner in basically a sandstorm. There was absolutely no way through it. It was probably one of the worst experiences of my career at the time. But now I talk about it a lot because honestly, I remember very viscerally thinking the only thing I can do here is literally put one foot in front of the other. And, you know, it really, really tested me on how to communicate with people that I really needed to in that moment. And again, all of those things around safety, you know, making sure that we were delivering something that was certainly memorable and that we were really calm under pressure. Interestingly, at the end of that dinner, this is so odd to me, nobody mentioned about the sand that I'm sure people were eating sand at some point. Nobody really talked about it. They talked that it was windy, but no one really complained. And I actually really put that down to the team and that we were all, you know, getting on with things. We were calm, putting one foot in front of the other and delivering it as we needed to. Magdalina Atanassova: Do you have a practice to kind of center yourself in those moments? Deborah Caldwell: I wish I could say that I did. I think deep breathing. I actually in that moment called my manager who is based in the US and I was in the Middle east at the time. I called my manager and I called a colleague of mine who's in a peer position. To me, I tried not to cry because I really felt like it. But, you know, the team were looking at me and they were all thinking, oh my goodness. We were also dealing with a very complex cultural situation in that particular country where it's very common for a lot of people not to show up and a lot of extra people to show up. We had to juggle that with security. We were dealing with royalty. So it was. There were so many elements aside from the weather that were really complex. And it was just a moment that we had not practiced or talked enough about the contingency. So there was no practice. Definitely some deep breaths. Definitely phone a friend just to be like, I need you thinking of us, please. And so. So definitely all of those things. And also, like I said, just going really back to basics. Our seating plan fell apart. I remember getting a piece of paper and drawing circles and ticking off, who have we got here? Really? Just back to basics. So, yeah, it was, it was quite memorable. Magdalina Atanassova: It seems like it yeah. Oh, tell me. Many people still talk about APAC as if it's a single market. What do you think are the biggest mistakes that global event leaders make when they think about Asia Pacific? Deborah Caldwell: Probably what you just said, thinking about it as one market. So I, I'm originally from New Zealand but I moved to the uk, I moved to Australia and then I moved to the UK and I worked across all of Europe and the Middle east while I was there. And I remember just feeling that that was such a diverse place to be and you know, on the continent there's so many different countries and they all do things quite. Fifteen years ago when I had the opportunity to move to Asia Pacific, I came in thinking that it would be much the same. And I remember asking one of my team members why she couldn't do a day trip to Singapore. Well, it's actually almost a four hour flight from Hong Kong to Singapore, so that's why you can't do it. But we used to do that all the time from London to Frankfurt for example. So thinking of Asia Pacific as one market and one audience mindset is a huge mistake. It's incredibly diverse. Diverse commercially, culturally, operationally and you know, in terms of client expectations and what works in one market brilliantly could be culturally insensitive or completely tone deaf in another market. So I think, you know, really delivering in a way that is consistent strategically, but making sure that we and that having sort of regional coherence or global coherence as a big brand, we always need to do that. But really listening carefully to the in market teams and the local expertise and especially I think in many of the Asian markets you could argue any, but the way relationships are built in every country is very unique and very important. How decisions are made, what premium feels like in some markets really does not work and other markets seems way too lavish or not lavish enough. And so on top of that, there's a lot of practical constraints on the ground as well, what can or can't be done, local laws, regulations, all of these types of things. So I think it's not a market where you can oversimplify and you absolutely have to be agile in your thinking and lead with a great deal of humility to make sure that you're always open to learning and trying to understand the nuances. Magdalina Atanassova: I love the fact that you mentioned being agile because agility has become some sort of a buzzword currently. And I wonder how can you stay agile in such a complex market? Like you just explained, have you had situations where really all those sensitivities and the real sense behind the word agility came to light from you and your team when you had to navigate something in the market that you maybe under prepared or in just a situation that took you by surprise. Deborah Caldwell: We can't have a podcast without talking about the pandemic. I mean, that one was the ultimate. That one was the ultimate for event planners because we went from delivering experiences in person, live experiences, to having to do that virtually. And I think all of us were learning on the go. And so again, you know, I really go back to having those strong foundations trust within the team that we're going to get through this together. And how did we sort of very quickly, in those very early days where we were expected all of us to pivot so quickly and to be the experts on digital events, how did we all eliminate the noise and really focus on the core of what we needed to get the job done? I actually don't know how we did it. I think we did it because we were a strong team and we came together. I will also say, you know, and when I say team, I'm thinking of my team, but I'm also thinking of our vendors. Oh my gosh. The different partners that we worked with and that we had built trusting relationships with over years, those relationships really delivered in that time. I was so grateful to those vendors. I was really grateful to other stakeholders as well. One thing that was really interesting that we did was establish a interbank group. So amongst other financial services companies here in Asia Pacific. We got really tight and we started to share what we were doing. And so although that was very specific to the pandemic, a lot of those things have come out of that as well. Right. That we've taken forward. And I think those relationships were really solidified. So really understanding the objectives, really understanding who are your key stakeholders and partners in these times and how can you benchmark or learn to be really agile all the time, thinking of new outcomes or new ideas or leveraging different relationships. But again, we've talked about it. I would say the other thing is really focusing on what are the non negotiables around your decision making. That's really important too. Magdalina Atanassova: You're coming from the financial services sector, which is associated with a lot of governance and controls and risk management. And I wonder how do you balance that need for rigorous oversight with the need to create engaging, memorable event experiences? Deborah Caldwell: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. We are heavily regulated, quite rightly as we should be. It is for us. Yeah, I guess it always is. A balance. It's something that should happen in the background and still make the experience feel completely seamless and so that, you know, our attendees are not feeling overburdened by it. But again, it is something that we just see integral into everything that we're doing. Right. It is how we protect the brand, it's how we protect the client, the business communities that we work in. So, you know, the, that attention to governance and control and risk management is just what we live and breathe. In fact, at the bank, we are a control function. We are there alongside our legal and compliance department, hr, all of these different teams. We're a control function because it's so important, I think, that, that good governance should also create confidence and not friction. And we're constantly working at our processes to find that balance as well. Right. And in some cases people need to feel that, that governance and control and risk management is there. They need to feel safe in a particular moment. They need to feel that you have thought about all of the potential outcomes. But, you know, mostly we want people to come and have a really seamless experience. Magdalina Atanassova: I feel a lot of medical event planners would also relate to that because they're also operating with a lot of regulations of things to consider. Deborah Caldwell: So we never see it as a bad thing. Right. And I actually, I say this a lot when I'm interviewing people who are coming into financial services for the first time, that you just have to understand that this is, you know, organizing events here. This is what you need to do. And quite rightly, as you point out, these other industries that think of it that way, it's not a bad thing. And you know, it's not something that it's. It's such a pain. And I've got to do that and I've got to think about that process. It is in everything that we do and we deliver these things responsibly and we're really committed to doing that. So it's, you know, there can be fun in it. And I don't think that it in any way stops creativity in any way. In fact, if we are really following our processes and we're really focused on governance and things like that, it's just becomes part and parcel and allows us to be more creative and really understanding, you know, where we can have fun with things. Magdalina Atanassova: And that's super fascinating to me because I've heard so many times throughout my career, even planners saying sustainability is just a burden. Sustainability is an add on, it burdens us. What if everyone saw it as you do in the Financial industry, you know, all the regulations that you have, it's just part of the process. Let's have fun with it. We would have changed our industry years ago. Deborah Caldwell: Yeah, I actually, I mean, this might sound a bit geeky, but I. I love the process because I just know where we stand. And it's not that I can't deal in the gray. We deal in the gray all the time, but it's just a relief to me when we're not having to on such important things. Right. When we do have process around things, it helps us apply way better judgment. But it's interesting that you raise about the sustainability piece. I mean, I feel a few years ago, actually probably pre pandemic, we were all in on sustainability at that time. We actually just built it into our processes again. So although we don't talk about it as much because I don't think the team are going through as a big, you know, as. As large a learning curve as what we did. We've just built it into bender contracts or, you know, RFPs, et cetera. It is just an expectation now that that is considered. Magdalina Atanassova: I hope that's why we are hearing less about it and in general from the industry. Right. And not because there are other things that are happening that are just kind of slowing it down. That's. That's my hope. Deborah Caldwell: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think so. You know, it's so odd to go into a place now and see plastic bottles and things like that. You know, I just feel like hotels have done an incredible job. A lot of venues. It is very, very normal now to go into a big convention center and see recycling bins for you to throw your tray. You know, all of these types of things that we used to talk about sort of five, six years, maybe 10 years ago, we should really do that now. It's just you don't even blink when you see that. So I. I think that's a wonderful thing. I definitely think that it's got still a long way to go and we still have to keep talking about it, but I believe in the industry, it's gone a long way in just making sure that these things are incorporated. Magdalina Atanassova: So we talked about those moments when something happens and you have to react on the moment on the spot. But when uncertainty simply increases, what are the first questions you ask yourself before making a major event decision? Deborah Caldwell: Probably I'm thinking about what problem are we trying to solve? Do I want to say what problem? Maybe what business objective are we trying to solve for? You know, after that, again, it's Coming back to those fundamentals, what are the risks, you know, what assumptions have changed, what are the non negotiables, what options? You know, I definitely think around who needs to be aligned. These are the types of things I think, you know, in times of uncertainty that we're considering. I think though, when you talk about something like this, you always think, yes, I should really do that next time. But as I, you know, explained in some of those examples that I gave the typhoon one and the sandstorm, we really had no time. We kind of knew the typhoon was coming because here in Hong Kong you get warnings and we can track, we're all obsessive, track where the typhoon's going. We just didn't really realize how strong it would be. So it still caught us a bit by surprise. But again, I had mentioned around really trying to separate the noise. What are the things that we really have to focus on right now and what's the outcome that we're trying to achieve? I think that's the only thing that you can really do. Magdalina Atanassova: And speaking about execution and achieving your goals and objectives, what leadership skill do event professionals most often mistake for a soft skill when it's actually a critical skill to success? Deborah Caldwell: I feel like I'm like on an ongoing journey around communication and I feel like if any of my team members were listening, they'd be like, oh God, she's talking about it again. And what I mean is like judgment and communication really going deep into communication skills. So communication is such a broad term and I do think it can be put into that soft skills category. But I honestly believe it is a core operating capability. The way you brief stakeholders, the way you align with partners, manage expectations, the way you influence decisions, communicate under pressure, talked about that it can completely change the outcome of an event. So for myself personally, my own personal development in the last however many years, I actually try and go deep on one facet of communication. And at the moment I'm trying to really think about listening. And I don't actually mean just about like listening to, you know, what you're saying to me today, but I'm also like listening into cues, body language. And you know, again, in the Asia Pacific region, I don't speak all of the languages, I barely speak any other language. But I actually realized that I've become pretty good at looking at nonverbal cues, body language, et cetera, tone. And so the art of listening is like my little hobby at the moment of like reading articles and being really observant, watching in meetings, even when we're in a virtual setting looking at people's body language and how I adjust my style in that moment. So that's a focus. In the past, I've gone through times where I've focused on really thinking carefully about how I align with different stakeholders to help me get my message across. That's another facet of communication through a third party, I suppose, if you like or partnering with people to help you with your communication. That's been incredibly powerful for me. And also I have had times where I really like focused in on presentation skills, which I remember the year I distinctly did that in one of my goal settings. I said I'm going to accept every presentation opportunity I can this year. And so many times throughout the year I thought, why? On the eve of having to do a panel discussion, I was like, why did I accept this? This is awful. And I felt so nervous. I learned a lot about power poses that year. I don't know if you know about them. Yeah. Going into the bathroom and like standing in a hero pose or doing a superman pose, I mean, I just thought this is absolutely bizarre. And I remember being thrown in the deep end on something very last minute. I was clutching at straws to try and think of something to give me the confidence and stop my nerves. I locked myself in the bathroom and for five minutes did some hero poses. I honestly think it helped me. So you know, these different things of communication. I'm trying to be way more intentional. And it doesn't mean I ended that year being perfect at presenting. It doesn't mean that I'm now well on my way to being a better listener. I'm a talker, much better at talking than listening. So this is why this might be a multi year focus. But I think the point is it's a journey and I really, really am focused on that for myself. But what I would also say is really trying to empower others and building their confidence to communicate with clarity and authority. And that's something I feel quite passionate about. Magdalina Atanassova: It's really an incredible skill both listening and speaking clearly. Especially when you work with so many cultures and you work in different countries. So what have you learned about building trust and alignment when people are operating in very different contexts? Deborah Caldwell: Yeah, it is a tricky one across different contexts. And I feel like I've really learned what it feels like to feel like a real outsider and how you sort of crack into and that can be through a multitude of things when you're the new person or, you know, maybe you're the oldest person or the youngest person, or maybe you don't speak the language or, you know, whatever. I think in a work context, it's always what's always seen me through, and what's always translated quite well is consistency. And that's something that I really try and pride myself on, is being consistent. If I say that I will come back to you, I will come back to you by that time, even if I don't have the answer. And, you know, over time, I think that that has really helped build trust. The other thing which is uncomfortable in some cultures is showing vulnerability and showing humility when you don't know the answer. Because I feel like I've sort of been forced to really embrace that. I learned that that was something I learned also very young, when I was, like, trying to have all the answers and you don't have all the answers and you get caught out. Oh, my gosh, nothing more embarrassing and nothing. There's no faster way to lose trust in a relationship, if you, like, try and make up the answer. I learned from a lot of leaders around me, and I really admired that skill of showing vulnerability and humility. And so I feel like that's also something that I'm really comfortable in saying, I don't know the answer, or I didn't know that, or can you help me understand and asking those questions to understand better? And that really builds trust as well. You know, we always talk, really as a collective, as a team, I always try and use language like that. When we're working with vendors, where we're doing, you're our partners, we're doing this in partnership. We both want a good outcome, always highlighting that we have a shared goal on what we're trying to achieve here. So even when things are kind of tense and. Or you're level setting and saying, hey, look, we're all trying to sort of get the same outcome. But what I would say is, I mentioned it before, is that really leaning into your local teams and understanding and giving them the leeway and respect and room to apply things the right way in their market. You know, one of the things that I'm always amazed about and inspired and delighted by in this region is, you know, the way that we reach an outcome in each market is so different, but we still deliver something that feels uniquely ours and consistent. But, of course, the way you deliver and do something in India could not be more different to Japan or China, or the way you do something in Australia is so different to, you know, how we might do it in one of the Southeast Asian nations, or, you know, so that diversity is exciting but absolutely important to be building trust. Magdalina Atanassova: And here I cannot not mention AI. I'm sure automation, new technologies, all that would be kind of the immediate answer to some of those things you've addressed by other event planners. So I wonder first of all, do you use them in such a sense and do you think event leaders are paying closer attention to the right things or do some that may be a bit overhyped? Deborah Caldwell: I still feel like things are so early for us really to know. I mean we use AI absolutely. I think many companies are at the moment and looking for ways to sort of find efficiencies. What feels really exciting is we're all on this learning journey together and we definitely embrace it like that within the team. Each of us are sort of sharing different ways that we've used the AI at the moment. I think it's helping with ideas and it's helping with decision making. We're trying to get it to improve speed but as we talked about before, we are heavily regulated so we're still somewhat restricted and most financial services are and many other companies, I'm sure and how we can use it, you know, as, as it continues to evolve, I think what's probably overhyped, I don't know. I'm actually talking a lot at the moment about that. I think that being an event planner is AI proof, at least for maybe another 5 to 10 years now this has been recorded, so I could be completely wrong. We can replay it. But you know something, that AI, I, I think is very far off. Being able to do is really sort of understand how people engage in a space, the reaction to certain experiences, you know, stakeholder management, as we talked a lot about, and that soft skills around communication, I really actually think that those are the skills as an industry we should be really focused on experience design. Because although I can go into AI and get some great ideas and it can do some awesome images for me, it's only then me, through my experience, whether lived in that moment or past experience, to really know if that's going to work or not. Magdalina Atanassova: Right. Deborah Caldwell: And what's sort of available to us in that moment to be able to make that happen. So I think it's going to be wonderful for us to automate some of those processes. Doing an event running order, probably the most painful thing. And there's already technology out there through Spark etc that really help us streamline those types of things. So I think getting good at that stuff so that you free up time to focus more on those soft Skills and to really bring in the insights that only a human can around relationships and judgment. In those moments, the AI is not going to be able to fix the sandstorm and it's not going to be able to tell you what to do in that moment. You're going to have to figure it out, you're going to have to smile, you're going to have to calmly say it's okay and work through it. Right. I'm all for AI and helping us, but I actually think that as a profession, we've got a really unique set of skills that I am excited to lean more into so that we can continue to deliver Great stuff. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. Somehow I don't see you prompting during a sandstorm, but rather huddling with the team and talking about what are our next steps right away. Deborah Caldwell: And even if I'm replaced by a robot, I actually the robot would have seized up in the sand. So, you know, although, although my mouth was full of sand as I always had a pasted smile on my face, you know, the robot would, would not have survived. Magdalina Atanassova: True, true. So you're going to CEMA Summit next and you'll be joining fellow global event leaders to discuss what you're navigating right now during a panel discussion. What's one challenge you believe event leaders should be talking about more openly? Deborah Caldwell: Look, I think. And Sheriff talks a lot about this. Our Sheriff from PCMA talks a lot about this, around our role in society in a bigger sense. And I mean, that sort of sounds like a very grand statement. He is that passionate about it and I think inspires us all to be like that. But I couldn't agree more in the way that I think we need to be talking more about the pace and complexity of decision making that event planners are faced with. And we are often seen in the events industry as execution only. But in reality, you know, we're really sitting at the intersection, if you like, of brand, client engagement, risk operations, leadership, all of these different things. And, you know, I'm really lucky to be in a position where we work with all the departments within the bank and that we are seen absolutely as advisors to the business and how we're engaging and giving real life experiences of our brand and the story that we want to tell and how we bring that into communities, clients, et cetera. And we've talked about all of those different elements that you're always having to consider, from security to safety, operationally, the brand, how it's presented. So, you know, this is the piece that I think we need to talk more about how we get that awareness or visibility. And, you know, Sheriff is just such a campaigner to always push that forward and make sure that we always have a seat at the table. And I am so with him on that, because I feel like it's really important that we're given that seat at the table. We're given the time and the opportunity to share the insights that we have, because we really see across the whole spectrum of the industry, but also of what big companies are trying to deliver. I don't know if I've articulated that well, but I think the more openly we talk about the complexity, the more effectively we can lead through that. Magdalina Atanassova: I agree. And I think I hear it more and more often during podcast discussions. My guests are really highlighting that event leaders are becoming those important business strategists, really. They're working on strategy. It's no more just logistics and is everything executed okay, but it's rather the strategy. We're supporting the strategy of the business. Almost every guest is saying it in one way, shape or form. Deborah Caldwell: You live the experience, and you witness how people are interacting with your brand or interacting or taking in content or information that you're trying to give them. So you do have that. And again, we talked about technology. There are different technologies to read people's faces and whatnot of how they're receiving these things, but nothing beats, you know, that sort of human insight that event planners are there witnessing. Magdalina Atanassova: Right. Deborah Caldwell: And, you know, we have a lot of partners that we work with, and they're often not on site. You know, they're not often actually there to see how their work was received. So it's a privilege to actually be there and, you know, overseeing every sort of facet of whatever it is that you're delivering. But how do you then going back to communication, bring that back to the boardroom or bring that back to your client, or bring that back at a senior management level to really, you know, as you say, build that into the strategy and give them those insights so they can build into the strategy. Really working on that confidence and empowerment and communicating with authority so that you can articulate that is. Is something that is important. And we always sell ourselves short. We're probably always just too exhausted because we've been up so late and getting back in the ballroom so early in the morning, and we're tired and we've barely eaten or whatever. But I think we need to be talking more about it. And actually not just the talking, but how do we start to move the needle? How do we continue to get behind leaders like Sheriff who really are dedicated to trying to move the needle. So there's a plug, because that's. That. That's why I became part of PCMA. I feel so passionate about the industry and. And giving back and actually, you know, helping or being a tiny part in helping to build the industry up. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, we need to become better storytellers and tell our story in a better and more impactful way. Deborah Caldwell: Absolutely. Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you very, very much for being on the podcast, for sharing all these insights and inspiring our listeners really, to do a little bit more, to listen a little bit better and to tell their story in a more impactful way. Deborah Caldwell: For sure. Thank you so much for having me, Maggie. It's been so nice to chat to you. Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you. Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.