Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Building a Law Firm Where People Don't Wake Up and Puke from Anxiety - with Samah Abukhodeir

Transcript

Building a Law Firm Where People Don't Wake Up and Puke from Anxiety - with Samah Abukhodeir · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ariela, and I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation with Sama Abukadir, which I hope I said right.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sama is the founder of the Florida Probate and Family Law Firm, a firm that takes kindness and culture seriously.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not just on paper, but when it actually matters.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I first connected with Sama after seeing her LinkedIn post about firing a prospective client who had been verbally abusive to her in her intake staff.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: In an industry that often prioritizes keeping clients happy and bringing in business at the expense of lawyer and team mental health and well-being, Sama's commitment to protecting her team made me want to know her.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, Sama gets incredibly honest about the hustle culture trauma that led her to build her own firm with a focus around culture, including the physical anxiety she felt at previous firms that made her want to throw up every morning.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the rating system she uses to screen potential clients to make sure her clients are a good fit for her firm, why she created a 35-page client handbook to set boundaries, and how she built a culture where her associates feel so safe sharing pregnancy news with her that they often tell her before they tell anybody else.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: She also talks about how intentional she is with personal and business growth.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: The coaches she works with, the masterclasses she takes, the work she puts into becoming the best she can be so that her firm and those that are part of it can become the best they can be.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sama's approach is a masterclass, an intentional leadership.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're looking to be a leader at a firm or whether you're looking for a sign that better is out there, this is a conversation we can all learn from.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly have.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening and enjoy.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I am um delighted to chat with you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I first came across you via your LinkedIn post where you were sharing about a recent experience with a client uh that was just like yelling at and berating and and cursing at, I think, your intake person.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And your firm was just like, no, we don't do that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: We are very intentional about our culture and how you know you treat us and how we work with you and what the like really treating it like a relationship.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I loved your post about it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, not you know, the the story that that went along with it, but your vibe around taking care of yourself and your staff and and frankly, even your other clients, um, so that you guys can really like do the work you're setting out to do and doing it intentionally.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I had just recently been thinking about law firm culture, and because I now have my own law firm, so I'm thinking about it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've been also been seeing other lawyers posting on LinkedIn more than they used to about leaving toxic environments, which so many of us have experience with.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I saw your post, I was like, yeah, my kind of people, and and I want to I want to hear so much about how you got to this point, recognizing that that was important and and how that really allows you to build the workplace and the the structure and the life that that feels good for you.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me, just because we started with that story, because that's what drew me to you, what led you to have that awareness around culture and share whatever you want about that story?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um previous firms that I was at and previous firms that my my husband was at, where we realized culture was um not optimal and not healthy.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was talking about this earlier today.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was waking up in the morning um having to throw up from anxiety of having to go into the office because I did not did not know what what was going to happen that day, what I was gonna face, if I had to go to court.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was just very scary um early on, and the environment was unhealthy and uh communication was unhealthy.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, with all that being said, um I realized that if I ever did start my firm, which was never what I thought would happen, um, that I wanted it to be a place that people did not wake up in the morning feeling like throwing up, uh, where they felt unhappy, that they didn't feel like there were people around them to support them, where they were thrown into a hearing and just told to figure it out.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wanted things to be different.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have done it that way.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have grown from a team of myself and a part-time law clerk to almost 50 team members now all over the world.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and our benefits uh have also helped us create that culture.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um we historically have hired women of childbearing uh ages.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have two kids under three.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my associates were pregnant with me at the same time in both years.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we were all out for maternity leave.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I I also wanted it to be a place where people were not afraid to tell me.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Both of my associates who are, I will say this, they're currently pregnant again.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was the first person that they told.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me is like really cool, right?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would have been afraid to tell my boss, but not here.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that speaks to the culture.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes me really happy.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: That is amazing.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, most of the stories that you hear, it, you know, it's it's the fear around speaking up about it.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's all this strategizing around who do you tell and when and what's that gonna mean and all this stuff, and it's ridiculous.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So well done on creating that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it was part of the same post, and maybe it was something else, where you talked about having a client handbook where you you're like, this is you're not just a number, you're kind of it to me, it feels like you know, it with friends, friendships or any relationship, you've got boundaries and you've got expectations, and you're setting the same with your clients.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And from a standpoint of you expect to be respected and you expect your entire team to be respected.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So d tell me about the development of this client handbook and um what's what's in it and how it really helps you to create that not just internal work culture, but to make sure that you're really bringing in the kinds of clients that will respect that and be a good fit.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm gonna backtrack and start this.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if I go like in a different direction, just guide me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we do a free case evaluation for every single person who calls in that schedules that consultation or case evaluation.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: It usually is between 15 and 20 minutes.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So our intake team will take that initial call, get all of the information, do the conflict check, and then they will schedule it with somebody to do that case evaluation.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that case evaluation, which is about 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes a little longer if the case is a little complicated or litigious, um, we rate our potential new clients, which I know sounds really odd, but we rate them from one to five.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if they receive anything three or below, usually not with not somebody that we are going to bring on.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because just as much as a client needs to match with the attorney, the attorney needs to match with the client.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we have several associates at my firm, several attorneys that work on the files.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if I personally, as the owner of the firm, would not want to work with this client, I would never make one of my associates or one of my paralegals work on it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that speaks to culture as well.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we have this rating system.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And what's involved in the in the rating system?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at if we're going to exceed their expectations, if their expectations are not realistic, we're looking at um if they understand the scope of services and how the length of the case will be.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give you a really easy one on the family side, because we practice family and probate at the firm.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: On the family side, if somebody calls in and is like, I'm looking for an attorney to give me 100% time sharing with my child, that immediately, and they're told during that case evaluation, we're a 50-50 state.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order to get anything that deviates from 50-50 times sharing, you're either neglecting the child, abusing the child, um uh abandoning the child.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's got to be something egregious, uh severe.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if your expectation is that you're gonna hire us and we're gonna get you 100% time sharing, if you don't understand during that case evaluation that that's not realistic, you're not a five.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's important because just as Michael, like what I was saying before, you don't want to promise the world to these clients and then they're and then they're you know underwhelmed or disappointed or leave bad reviews or unhappy because it's your reputation, it's the firm's reputation.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want people going out there and saying they promised me the moon and the stars, and I did not get those things.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of you know the rating system, which then connects to the client handbook.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if they're a four or a five, we know we're able to help them with their situation.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: We we believe confidently that we can help them.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um they understand the scope, they're gonna be a good client, they're gonna be reasonable, um, they're not gonna want to spend every penny litigating this because that's not our firm.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: We we don't want to take every case to trial.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: That would not be fair to every client, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we want to settle, we want to mediate, we want to try to make, you know, the best deal possible for our client.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that does not mean going to trial on every case.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also don't want to put them in debt.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if they're not able to afford going to trial, that is something we talk about in the case evaluation to set expectations.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, listen, if you want to go to trial, it's gonna cost X amount.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you want us to try to resolve this to your liking, we can probably do that before trial.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: We can do that way before trial.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but, anyways, going back, um, once we see that they're the right fit for the firm and they feel like we are the right fit for them, because choosing an attorney is extremely important as well, um, we put them through the onboarding process.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the onboarding process is the client handbook, which is I think it's like 35 pages now, um, where it goes through how our firm works, who are the attorneys, who are the paralegals, what our hourly rates are, um, what you can expect in communication.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a 24 to 48 hour communication policy that's spelled out.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you contact us, email, text, phone call, you will get a response within 24 to 48 hours, unless it's a Saturday, and then you have to wait till Monday, but you know, they get it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we define what an emergency is.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people will call in and be like, I have something urgent, it's an emergency.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You read in the client handbook what an emergency is, which basically is a child's in danger, has been kidnapped, somebody has passed away, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, something that, you know, we spell it out.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if it's not anything of that nature, then that is not an emergency, and we'll get to you within that 24 to 48 hours.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also talk about um email expectations, we talk about how the court system works.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's just basically like a roadmap.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have been thinking a lot about you know how much I think lawyers often complain about their interactions with clients of, you know, can you believe they called me about this?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they're expecting it, you know, something to be turned around at this period of time and you know, think it's an emergency, and it's really not.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's actually a lot to understand as a client how to be a good client and how to get the outcomes you're looking for.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't train the client on how to get that, we can't expect that they're gonna know anything.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I love this handbook idea of transparency and education and setting expectations so that they can actually set themselves up for success.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone who doesn't like what's in the handbook, you know, even if they get has the rating system, you just understand it may not be the fit, and that's that's totally fine.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this all the time.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to not be the right fit, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're um the part that sets us or the the pieces that set us apart as a term um very diverse cultural, religious uh background.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um people who speak different languages, and sometimes a client needs someone who speaks their language, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they need somebody who understands the cultural elements of their marriage or their or their inheritance dispute.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay if it's not us, and that's okay if it's not you too.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like our job is not to take every client who comes in the door, our job is actually to guide them to the right people if we aren't in the right fit.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I I sincerely believe that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you've also talked about your firm's core values, and uh, and that you have, I think, a Slack channel where you just kind of lift people up and highlight amazing things that people are doing, small or large.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share more about that and how you even got to the realization that that would be worth trying and how it impacts the way people show up?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So our core values are honesty, going above and beyond, being a team player, bringing passion, and being positively proactive.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we communicate via Slack.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so anytime a team member sees someone who exhibits one of these core values, they'll shout them out.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And although it sounds cheesy, like I agree.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um it doesn't sound cheese.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: If a stranger is telling me, oh, we're shouting people out, you know, it sounds great.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: However, it we really use it, like, and it makes people feel good because I know when I was an associate, the only thing we would get shouted on, shouted out on were the negatives, never the positives.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was always like you mess this up, this is spelled incorrectly, the formatting is incorrect here, you didn't do this correctly.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason, because this was not my idea, the reason we do this is we follow EOS, um, which I don't know if you're familiar with.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I am familiar, but I imagine a lot of uh lawyers are not.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, so I'm doing a god job of explaining, but it's a it's a way of managing your company, managing your firm.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be law firms, most of them are not law firms, actually.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know many law firms that use EOS.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm part of EO as well.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I've we've been using the system of EOS for management.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um we have a management team, we meet quarterly, um, and we use this way of guiding the firm and managing the firm.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've been using it for about three years, and that's the reason that that we've come up with our core values.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our integrator is the one that has told us you need to come up with your core values, you need to come up with your vision, you need to come up with your one, three, five, ten-year goals.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's it's grounded us, it's leveled us, and it's helped us grow year after year.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I am so clearly it's working for you.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious why you still think it sounds cheesy.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I hear it and I'm like, what if every law firm were to do that?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: That would be amazing.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know anything about the neuroscience of how people learn and how to how to motivate people, it's not to just criticize and criticize and criticize and criticize.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, you want to be able to acknowledge when someone does make a mistake and you move like learn from that and move forward in a healthy, productive way.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when something goes well, people benefit.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: People get motivated from having that acknowledged and celebrated.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it's not your win, if it's your colleagues' win, you get motivated by that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if we were to pay attention to the neuroscience of how we actually sort of learn and function as humans, we'd all do it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what makes you still think it's cheesy?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're sitting at work.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't say speak, but um, who don't understand EOS, who haven't read traction, who are not part of EO, I just feel like they when I talk about it, they're like, oh, that's foo foo.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's just like that's a dream, or that's something that people try to trick people with, you know?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really honestly, it's been such a positive thing in our company and our culture.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I'm looking at the Slack channel now, and um last Fridays, um, one of my managers, which sometimes it's any team member who shouts it out, but she was shouting out multiple team members for a trial that happened.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they speak about the specific core value that they exhibit, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um every single person like does an emoji and likes it or like speaks about it, and it's like people see it and they're like, wow, like that's a very awesome thing to be shouted out for, even if it's so small, but it makes people feel good and it makes people feel appreciated, and it makes people want to come to work and and do a good job, you know.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to other people listening to this and thinking about how to implement that uh a system similar for their own firms and reaching out to you to say, give me more tips, because this is this is phenomenal.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it it really is.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, the the culture piece I think is so hard.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I am also a fellow non-drinker, and I saw again another post of yours about that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder how that has impacted your your legal career, starting from law school through now.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, from my own experience, you know, it whenever most people around me were always drinking, so it would make networking events just I I didn't love them for the most part.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would go in and I'm happy to, you know, it's easy for me to talk to people, but when everyone's getting drunk and I'm like, here's my water, we're on different levels, and I like to get to know people through in different ways.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so it always was really difficult for me to kind of become part of what a lot of our community or our network was doing because I just felt like that's not part of my value system, and I don't show up that way, and that's not how I want to use my time and my energy.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then all you people over there are kind of developing your your inner circle, and I'm over here being like, anyone want to go work out and get a stat?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I feel you on this, like I feel you in my core.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I grew up in a household um where religiously we just we didn't drink.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember my dad, though, in all honesty, telling me that when he was in med school, he would drink whiskey all the time.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, When I married your mom, she had never been around alcohol.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, you know, I wasn't a good Muslim boy.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I was in college, he was like, I drank, I smoked, like I did all the things that we were told not to do.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that the reason I bring this up is because I didn't grow up with that around me.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a very small town um in Central Florida, and I grew up around um very religious Christian people.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we were the only Muslim family in town.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so alcohol was never a thing until I went to I would say college and law school, and then I realized this is really crazy to say, but like 99% of the people in law school drank a lot.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was a it's alarming, oh yeah, to be honest.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and these are friends, um, and it makes it an uncomfortable situation, and it makes uh networking uncomfortable, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're at a function, you're at a bar function, everyone has alcohol in their hand.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then as soon as you say, Oh, I'm not drinking, are you pregnant?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't you drinking?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why do I have to be pregnant not to drink?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is it okay for you to get drunk, but me have to be pregnant to not drink?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does it make that make sense to me?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I am so with you, and I have a similar background in that I grew up, uh we're Jewish, and I we didn't have alcohol in the house at all.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't even like a discussion, it was just like, you know, there would be wine for Shabbat, and that's it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And every so often for a holiday, my dad would have like the tiniest amount of shnopps.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I just had I wasn't raised around alcohol and the same as you.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I went to college and I was like, what's happening?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then law school even more so.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what is this?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I would have, you know, and at the time part of part of why I didn't um one of the reasons I didn't drink was I also had major health challenges, and it was um as my way of uh sort of my response to alcohol was could.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Be actually really frightening.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that I had tried it once or twice and I was like, this is what you guys are experiencing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it turned out my reaction was life-threatening.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also just had this feeling of why do you want to, you know, you're waking up complaining about hangovers.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you keep doing that?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It seems awful.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I already know what it feels like to feel awful.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you're choosing some version of that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't get it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had people saying all sorts of, I mean, I still remember someone saying in response to, you know, me saying I don't drink, it was, oh, if I I I wouldn't, I wouldn't live if I couldn't drink.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, and and it was actually like a I would kill myself if I couldn't drink.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just stood, and I I've known people who have died by suicide.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I've just, you know, that still that still sits with me of wow, our the drinking culture is so extreme that that's a thing that people would say.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm much more open.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people knew that I wasn't drinking, but I've posted on LinkedIn a few times about like, hey, I don't drink.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think lawyers, when they don't, it's really hard to find the others that feel the same way for whatever reason, whether it's you just don't like it, you've got health stuff, religious reasons, doesn't matter.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think there are more of us out there who are like, I don't care, I don't want to do it.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe I, you know, for people who did, and then they're just like, nope, I'm done with it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Positive.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I also don't need to be bullied into doing it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's another thing.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a um a culture of shaming people into like doing things, right?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's doing it, you gotta do it.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I you know, my parents taught us to be really strong women, we're three girls.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it was just never an issue of like feeling peer pressure or anything like that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And can I tell you, culture has changed?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: You go to a restaurant now, there's a whole non non-alcoholic menu, and it's like in the last couple of years.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, okay, finally people are getting it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't need alcohol to have a good time.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: You you need to be a good person to have a good time, right?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, I love what you said.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be a good person to have a good time.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the things that actually help you to show up as a good person and the way that you want to now?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, can you talk about that in the context of, you know, I know you've also shared that you had times where you wouldn't have breakfast until like 4 p.m.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: and what that did to your body and your mindset and how you were able to show up and and what that how that impacted the way you felt as a as a person and as a life.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Today is one of those days.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm you know, this is confessional and it's okay to be honest because not every day is perfect.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um This is the place to share the things that you know I I want this to be where people can just say all the things they think they're not supposed to say out loud, or the things that make them feel weird or other or not good enough, or all of that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So fill your guts.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of the days where it's 4 30 and I've had a banana and sips of coffee.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's because I have not slept in days because my kids are both sick with RSV.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so how do I show up?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the day, is the honest truth.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are really good days, and sometimes there are bad days.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's been a couple of um hard days because of the kids and uh having a business and also having little kids.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um my son is two and a half and my daughter is 16 months.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And my son started school.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a post about this on LinkedIn.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um he started at a local Montessori school that my husband actually went to when he was his age, um, a little bit older actually.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we did not imagine our child starting school at two and a half, but it's I wrote about this, it's less about us and more about them.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized he needs some sort of social interaction.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is he needs an environment to thrive.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And even though we have a great support system at home and all of the things, um it's been good for him to have school.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um with school comes getting sick, which is where I was going with this.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they've they've both been sick, but um, to go back to your question, um I it it honestly depends on the day.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much on my plate, like everybody else too.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about me, but there's so much on our plates and there's also this guilt of being a good mom, being a good business owner, being a good boss, being a good professor because I teach at the university.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um being good at everything, um, and our our plates are so full.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think with time, I've just had to choose, you know, what things to focus on um and also what things to delegate.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was talking earlier to someone and they were like, Do you do everything?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because it seems like you do everything on social media and LinkedIn and all these things.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I try to be as honest as I can.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever I'm talking about, yes, I'm doing, but it doesn't mean I do it every day.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that I'm doing it a hundred percent well, right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do everything a hundred percent well, but I try to pick and choose the things during the day.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I still have a planner, I still have my calendar on my phone and on my outlook, and I try to live by that calendar.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then if things like this week, right, today's Wednesday, so Monday and Tuesday, I've had to cancel a bunch of meetings because my kids were on top of me.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I did an interview yesterday for a potential team member, and I had both sick kids on me, and I got on camera and I was like, I apologize, both of my kids are really sick, and she was like, Don't apologize, it's totally fine.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we did the interview just like that.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I don't know if that answered your question, but I I love the answer, and I also I love that you said you had to reschedule a couple of things this week, um, because I have been talking a lot about rescheduling with people recently because people reschedule with me all the time.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I also am a person, and so I also reschedule with people, and so frequently when people reschedule with me, they are so apologetic, they are so you know, then grateful for the fact that I'm not like angry with them or annoyed, and I'm always baffled by this kind of response or reaction of people being so concerned about rescheduling, in my view, is and then I love when they're so, you know, they're so like angst up about it, because then I get to say, it's okay, you're a person.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and the way I look at you know our calendars and rescheduling is your priorities will simply never be identical to my priorities.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if I were to be upset by you needing to reschedule with me, that means that I'm upset that your priorities don't match mine.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that just seems just absurd.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, I understand that, you know, and it the the context depends um or matters, but I I love that you're just like, you know what, I got life going on.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes I'm gonna just have to cancel this and for now, and then other times I'm gonna show up with two children on me and just say, this is how it's gonna be.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not okay with that, then we might not be a good fit anyway.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it's a really good way of determining if somebody will fit the culture of the firm and be an understanding person.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it made me think about this, but I think earlier on, so I said I don't practice, I fully manage, I think I said earlier.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are some pro bono cases that I'm working on that the court has appointed me on, and then there are some other cases that the court has appointed me on the estate side.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I have shown up with a child to to a hearing on camera, and I have apologized to the judge, and it's really interesting because the judges are like, there's nothing to apologize for, you're fine.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's a more understanding time.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and quite honestly, like I know children are not supposed to be in the courtroom, and even if it's on Zoom, but it's beautiful that people understand.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband has done the same thing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think when they see a man with a child on them, they're like, Oh, okay, he's doing a good job.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: When it's a woman, they're like, Oh, that you know, that's the norm, you know?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also interesting to see that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, speaking of your husband, you merged firms a few years ago.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that journey.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you uh got some pushback from the outside of people thinking that would be a terrible idea, and you uh ignored everybody else and did what your guts told you would be a good idea, and it sounds like it's going well.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I also say this because I uh also work with my husband on certain businesses, and we love it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much fun.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can absolutely see how it would be not, you know, not be the right thing for everyone, but if it's the right thing for you, it totally is.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm glad that you've read all these posts.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel heard and seen, which is really nice.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the goal.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, we attend multiple masterminds uh for other business owners.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are specific to law firm owners, some of them are business owners.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um one of our friends who owns a law firm and an SEO company um was the leader of this mastermind, I would say three and a half years ago, because I was pregnant with my son at the time.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, one of the things during our hot seat, so for people who don't know what a mastermind is, it's just like a small group of people that meet a certain amount of times per year.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: They come with one issue that they're um struggling with in their company, and then we go around the room and we make observations, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: It could be about your body language, it could be about something you said when you were presenting, it could be suggestions on how to fix this issue.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's all sorts of things, right?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the person in our mastermind group said, Have you all ever considered joining forces?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sam practices family and probate, and Jose practices probate, probate guardianship, and estate planning, right?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he already practices half of what the firm practices.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was put in our head that if like you don't mix your personal with your business life.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's the way that I was always thinking about it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I realized we were pregnant.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was pregnant with our son.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was really hard because he had his own caseload and I had mine with my firm.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: My firm was bigger than his.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't really want to scale his firm.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: He liked a small setup, but the amount of time that he was taking working on his firm didn't make sense.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when we had this suggestion, we talked about it with our business coaches.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we talked about it during the mastermind, and we came up with a plan.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about it with our EOS integrator.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we talked to all the people, and everybody was like, try it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you guys know how you are, you're complete opposites.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: We did a culture index of our personalities, we're complete opposites.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, try to pick the things that you're strong at, and those are the things you'll manage and see how it works out.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think that God works in mysterious ways because I ended up having an emergency C-section with my son, and I almost died when I was giving birth.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that planning in advance for this uh merge um was a blessing because I was forced to be out of the office for six months to recover.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so having my husband be able to cover all of the things that I was not, you know, physically or emotionally capable of handling, I everyone would laugh at me because I'm like, oh, I'll be out two weeks, three weeks at most.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like this, I'm gonna work from home, like everything's gonna be fine.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was humbled, and it was six months of staying at home and focusing on my health and focusing on the baby and breastfeeding and everything, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that honestly, everything does happen for a reason.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a blessing.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: We work really well together.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a few other businesses together, um, and it's just been really healthy.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've been we've been able to be present for our children, we've been able to um schedule our lives around our personal stuff, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we've been able to continue growing a multimillion dollar law firm.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, that's a win-win.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: What are these other businesses that we have?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: We are um looking into investing into an SEO company.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we also have uh real estate investment.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the two other side businesses, and then we have a lot another couple things that we want to look into.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like now that we've done like we've done the business the right way, now it's made us less risk averse, and now we're thinking about different things that we can we can grow.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe less risk averse, and also just you've proven to yourself that you can do these things that may seem kind of impossible or insurmountable, and you can do them together and it goes well.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when you have that evidence of like, oh yeah, clearly I got this, I know what I'm doing, then you're like, well, okay, so where else should I apply this kick-ass?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're absolutely right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like the thrill of starting a company or working on a company and doing it with your significant other, like it's a lot of fun.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of people, a lot of people are like, oh, do you guys talk about this everywhere, including in bed?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, we do.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we enjoy we enjoy growing it, we enjoy talking about what the vision of the firm is, we talk about where we want to be in life.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I and the reason I say this too is I am a Section 8 housing and food stamp baby.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the child of immigrants, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he's the child of immigrants as well.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we don't have the same financial background.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: He grew up, he grew up well off.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did not, but it's cool to see both of our backgrounds mesh, just like our firms are meshing, um, and just like going on this journey of seeing how it goes.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been it's been three years, and it's been, I think, probably the best decision we've made.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you also you mentioned how you're able to, you're kind of designing your your life so that the businesses fit in well with that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I love thinking about really the designing of your life as opposed to just like, oh, you wake up and you go, and like hopefully it leads to something that's not terrible.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I I feel like we're kind of navigating life and work in similar ways where there's just a lot of intention and there's a lot of, oh, it doesn't have to be that way.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can do it the way I want, so I need to think about well, what is that and figure out what are my values, what are my priorities, how do I want to spend my time and my energy?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: How does that look?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's working well, what's not working well?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what changes should I make?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is your process for thinking through all of that?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sitting down, you know, once a week or once a month?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just with your coaches?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: How do you navigate those conversations and and and decisions with your that's a great question?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we have our EOS quarterly planning meetings every quarter.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as the previous quarter is done, we're planning for the next quarter and going over the previous quarter.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's four times a year.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also have coaching with our um CEO, CEO um and COO, and that happens weekly.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so like for example, right now we're taught we're working on the budget for 2026.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've already pretty much finished the business plan and we've pretty much finished the marketing plan.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: But all of these things get planned in advance.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also, and I think this is the most important thing we do, um, or actually I'll get to that next.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: We go to mastermind conferences um and we go to coaching conferences.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So during those conferences, we're planning out different things that are being discussed.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that the most important thing we do, and I think this is from the personal and the professional side, is we do um, I think they're called uh think trips or think conferences.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm I'm trying it.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that sounds fantastic.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: You you can let me know for um afterwards what it is, and and I'll link to whatever exciting things we're uh talking about in the show.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's something our uh CPA and our coaching uh company has told us about, and it's basically planning out um, I would say two to three times a year where we're traveling to an international destination and it's just the two of us, and we're it's a think trip.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're thinking about the vision of the firm, um, we're planning out different goals, we're working on our vision board, um, and we're working on basically the vision of what we're building, um, and we're able to do it while being on the water, in the mountains, wherever we choose for it to be.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a business expense, and we're working on the business.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're thinking about how we want to grow it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, from a personal standpoint, it's great for your marriage or your relationship because you're building, you know, something with this person.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the professional side, it's really helping the company.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you've now mentioned a number of different coaches and a CEO and a COO, and and this really great-sized team that's you know, you're managing, you're not really doing much practicing.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: What's been your relationship with letting go of doing everything?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Which I know you started out as a well, to be a successful leader, you have to do all of it.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now you've really, it seems like, honed in on how to hire well, how to find good fits, whether it's you know, staff or clients, and also how to delegate and recognize where your skill, expertise, energy, you know, time is really best directed, and what you can direct from up high and should leave to other people.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's what has been your journey with that?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm very Taipei and it has been to learn how to delegate and delegate well, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can always delegate to anyone, but for me personally, and this is some it's self-realization, that when I delegate and it doesn't come back the way that I envisioned, which is perfect, perfection, um, then I get upset, like I get frustrated.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something I've had to work on personally.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of my coaches told me early on, it and it took me a year and a half to finally like take the advice.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna grow your business, if you're gonna grow in general, if your goal is to scale, you have to learn how to delegate.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot do everything yourself.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in the beginning, the first year and a half, I was answering the phones, I was drafting the pleadings, I was marketing to bring in the cases, I was doing the payroll, I was doing like everything, everything possible, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Of hiring, firing, uh the giving direction, whatever, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I realized the amount of time that it was taking to do all of these things, I couldn't focus on growing, right?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: So once that clicked, um, which took a year and a half, unfortunately, um, I started to learn how to slowly delegate.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and through that and learning that everything doesn't have to be perfect, even though in my head it's a self-reflection, right?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's your reputation of things aren't perfect, but people don't look at you like that.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's all in your head, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: If things are above average and near perfect, that is okay.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone does things the way that I think that they should be done.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is okay.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think once I realized that, that's when we were able to finally grow to the level and continue to grow.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're still growing, we're still looking for people to join the team.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the last thing I will say about this is when the year and a half mark hit, I also acquired a law firm.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was a retiring attorney.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: She was 81.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and at that point, I also realized I have to delegate work to her because part of the acquisition was that she required to stay on as an associate or as a partner, and so I knew that I was having somebody on the team that I had to give work to who had been practicing the amount of years I was alive.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: So also navigating that it kind of forced.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Me to delegate and she's phenomenal.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's 87.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: She's still on my team and she's family.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I also I love, I mean, it sounded to me like you're like, well, I was contractually obligated to delegate, so I had to do it, and it was amazing because it forced me to do this thing that you would have kind of begrudgingly acknowledging.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: But and I I I have had you know in different contexts similar experiences here, feeling like the thing that you are for one reason or another kind of forced into ends up being such a gift because otherwise you were just gonna continue just kind of just dragging because you're trying to do it all exactly the way you think it should, or um, you know, and and that being forced can just speed you up and then make you go, oh, that's what it is.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I can do that.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, it comes in different shapes and sizes, and mine was an 81-year-old Jewish woman from Maine who pushed me in the right direction.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, what has been your process of hiring well?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have this system for getting the right kinds of clients for your firm.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: What how do you do that for staff?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: That has been the hardest thing for us this year.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad you asked that.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in previous I'm learning from you, by the way.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm, you know, I started my firm about a year and a half ago.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've also I'm recently like, oh, right, can't do it all myself.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: I went from thinking, oh, I just want it to be small and just me, which my husband laughed at, and I was like, no, really.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he was right, I don't.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's growing.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: So everything you hear about this, I'm like, I appreciate that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so this has been the hardest year for hiring.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that because in previous years, we have had a list of people, and I'm not saying this to to brag, but we've always had people that reach out to us and are like, hey, whenever you have a position, please consider me.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would love to move over to your firm, which is it's been so helpful because that's how we found a lot of the people on the team.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they found us, we didn't have to go searching, it's not been that hard.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know what's going on this year.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: This year has been very tough.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we've had to put out ads, we've had to um, we've had to go to different networking events, we've had to search online, all sorts of things to find the right people.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the best way we've found people is word of mouth.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we incentivize the team.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if they find somebody that stays on for at least three months, we give them a bonus.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: We get that we give them a finder's fee, a bonus for finding us another person.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I've learned is good team members have good friends who are also good team members.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: They attract the same quality of people with the same ethics and morals, and that's what we want, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Something else we have implemented, which has been a game changer, is um as soon as somebody applies, the first step in the interview process is taking the culture index, which is a personality assessment, who our EOS integrator has always encouraged us to do.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we're about to get certified in it.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll be able to read it without my integrator.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's it's a simple, I would say, 10-minute personality assessment where uh it tells us what their natural strengths are and what they want you to believe their natural strengths are.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very cool.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody's applying for a litigation attorney position, it will tell me whether they are a natural litigator, whether they will excel in that, or whether they'll they that is not for them at all, and they're applying to it because they think you know this is what they should be doing.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but through that assessment, we've been able to find just key key team players.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I love the the that kind of thought that you're putting into it.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, just back to the beginning of our discussion, just really having the culture fit.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so um what are what are some of the other kinds of characteristics that you look for when you're hiring because you understand that that's going to help to at this point maintain this really what sounds like a phenomenal culture.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the things that you're looking for specifically, or the kinds of characteristics that you're like, not that I think you're a bad person, but I don't think you'll thrive here, and I don't think it will be a good fit.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll take you through our interview process.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing that they do is the culture index.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we try to see, you know, how they do on that.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: If they pass, I shouldn't say pass, if if it shows that they would be the right person for that position, then we have them go through different interviews with different team members, including their manager, their potential new manager.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jose and I will be the last interview.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't tell you how many people have gone to gotten to the last interview, and both me and my husband after the interview are like, not the right fit.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a gut feeling.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what I was gonna say.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds crazy, but No, it doesn't.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've gotta learn to listen to our guts.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's like our brains are valuable, but we're up to a limit.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow um just realized we have a feeling.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: One of us or both of us will have a feeling, and we're like, I just don't think that this person would would thrive with us or wouldn't fit fit in well, or doesn't seem like we had an interview, for example, for a family litigation associate, which we are currently hiring for, and the person made it to the last step, and I asked the person, so I ask very like normal, easy questions.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Our interviews are not scary, not with me and Jose, maybe previous, right?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Previous team players, but um, I ask questions like, so tell me a bit, tell me a little bit about yourself.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: What do you enjoy doing on your free time?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to learn more about the person.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then towards the end, I'll ask them, so what's your um what's your uh uh experience in family law litigation?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever done a dissolution of marriage with kids?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's the net worth of the families?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll just ask random things, right?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: To to feel them out.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And somebody we interviewed for this position who tested well on the CI, who passed every interview.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think they went through three or four interviews before they reached us.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: I asked one question where I was like, why do you want to practice family law?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you enjoy it?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you enjoy it?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer was, I do it because it's a job.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I know I can do it, and you know, I bring in clients, or it was something to that effect.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh no, like the people that want to practice, and there's nothing wrong with that answer.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: I actually appreciate it more than they realize, right?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's the honest truth, and I love that.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then it shows me that your full heart is not in it, and so to me, you're representing clients of the firm, and that's not what you enjoy doing.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: You really need to do what you enjoy doing, and you might not, you potentially might not do the best at the job because this is not what you truly want to do.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's things like that that I pick up on people's language during an interview, people's body language, um, just different things that my gut tells me this person would thrive, or this person is, you know, this is not what they want to do, and that's okay.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's I I love that you're actually paying attention to the your gut at the end.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that often, you know, people go around, you know, employers hire people and then wonder later on why it's not a good fit.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it is, well, you're looking at, you know, what what what have you checked off?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, oh yeah, this seems fine.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: They've got a good background, education, you know, training, all the things, you know, on paper seems like a good, you know, they know what they're doing.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not necessarily enough.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: In some environments, maybe.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, but it may be that when you're like, why is this not going so well?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's the heart thing is off, or it just, you know, you also really, and I think especially in the kind of work that you do, you want your clients to feel really, really connected and cared for.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: In both areas, like whether it's probate or or family law, both are very emotional.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so they need to feel like the person that is representing them on this case is going to fight tooth and nail for them.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you got a lot going on and and you have this awareness around your well-being and also that you just every day you're you just can't nail it every day.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that you go to to make sure that you are as okay as you can be, especially when you've got two sick kids and and so much happening.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: And because you have this awareness of you started out your career throwing up every morning, and you want to make sure you're building an environment where no one has to feel that way.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And part of facilitating that is making sure that you show up as your, you know, some version of your best self, and that requires a certain amount of taking care of yourself, even when you're like, I haven't slept in a week.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you do that?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: A combination of things.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: So my husband and I, about I would say seven to nine months ago, we started um with a program that um works with a nutritionist, um, works with a um doctor, and works with a phlebotomist that comes to our house, takes our blood um every three months, also does a um urine sample and does a saliva sample in the very beginning, and then tells us basically what our body um, what ingredients our body needs, um, what vitamins we're deficient in, um, all sorts of stuff.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they basically uh make different supplements that are specific to each of our bodies.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that has been something that has really helped me, right?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: With my energy levels, um, with the I'm iron deficient, for example.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um having try spitone, spitone water, that has been like a game changer for me.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll send you the link.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: I will.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just iron-rich water, and I've been like uh anemic to the level of needing iron IVs, which I don't recommend.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this stuff has been great.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, anyways, I'll send it to you.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I hate to have to take supplements, but it's one of the things that the blood test showed, and I'm like, maybe this is why I'm so tired.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like yeah, you need iron for energy.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's been one of the things that has really helped me with my energy levels.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also uh trying to work out um at least once or twice a week.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't been able to do it in the last month, but prior to that, I was doing it once or twice a week.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um waking up earlier and going to bed uh earlier as well, um, that's been huge.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what else?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um surrounding myself, I think this is the the main thing.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Surrounding myself with positive people, just people with good empathy.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that as business owners, just specific to business owners, when you surround yourself with people who are maybe not doing as well, or maybe um just have like a black cloud over them, or people who are envious or um jealous of success or don't see the positives.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know we don't talk about these things, but it's been something on my mind for like the past I don't know how many years.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when you surround yourself around these people, um, it brings you down.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I've tried to find different groups of people, women specifically.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I joined EO this year, that's been another group that I have on WhatsApp that I've been trying to go to different events for, but just different groups of people that are not just attorneys who can uplift you, who can bring your energy up, who can encourage you.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they can be people that don't have as big of businesses as you.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the person, their energy, their positivity.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: That that to me is a game changer.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think just surrounding yourself with those types of people are going to make you a better person.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that made sense.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it makes so much sense.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think about this all the time.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I, for myself, would add to your list um that I do not spend time with people who complain.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: I remember years ago talking to a colleague who made a comment about how much fun it is to complain.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, okay, this is not gonna work.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very like you, I'm I'm I'm a very big mindset matters person.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would not have gotten to where I am with all the kinds of health, health in particular, and also just life challenges that I've had if I didn't just believe that I would get to where I wanted to go somehow, even though sometimes it seemed like just crazy.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I it feels icky to me uh to spend time with people who just see the negative and can get stuck in that.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you can, you know, for people who are more inclined in, you know, kind of seeing the world that way, they should understand that's not like genetic.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can change that about yourself.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can train yourself to get out of that mode.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I highly recommend it because then you really get to blossom.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to imagine that a lot of how you've gotten to where you are has been a recognition, it has involved a recognition of, as you said, when you're around these kind of people who are looking at life and opportunities in business in a well, what else can we do?
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: How exciting this is kind of way.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Then you're like, oh, this is fun.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're around people who are like, oh God, this is hard.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: What I have to do it again tomorrow, that's not gonna help you get where you want to go.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: And also being around people, strangers, right?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can meet a positive stranger, right?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, it it's it's it sounds funny, but um surrounding yourself with the same people day after day also can be unhealthy.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta like break that and then put yourself in situations with people you don't know.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's really hard.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get my energy from being around other people.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: My husband is the opposite, he gets his energy from being by himself.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that when I'm around other people, different groups of people, uh, different professions, different places in life, all of that, right?
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: With my with my 87-year-old uh partner, right?
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: We do dinner once a month, and we sit for hours and talk.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: Talk everything.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about everything, right?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, family, professional, personal, just everything.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like those moments in time I will remember forever.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it also uplifts me and makes me feel really, really good.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I need.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: I need positive people.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the first thing that comes to mind is um being a Palestinian American attorney.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's not many of us, um, especially in South Florida, especially in Florida.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that that has been something that's been hard to navigate.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's been positive that's come out of it because um I've been able to uh be the person that people go to um when they have legal issues.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I said it earlier, but I was appointed, um, I get appointed on cases, and so judges will call or people will call and say, you know, Sam, I have a um an Arab family who we need to appoint you on the case because you'll understand the cultural or the religious or whatever it is.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I definitely do feel like the other um in those situations, but it has helped because you know, people think of me in those situations.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um what have been the challenges?
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just what have been the challenges with um there's a lot.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that it makes me stand out because there's not very many Middle Eastern women that practice law.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also think that women are not taken as seriously.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's always been the older, um older white men who have been practicing law for 40 or 50 years that might get on the phone with me and say, Well, I've been practicing longer than you've been alive.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what do you I don't care?
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm still gonna do a better job and I'm still gonna win this case.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you can say whatever makes you feel better.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think it's it's um being a woman, being a minority.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the political climate has been really hard as well.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think what's going on in the world has been really difficult.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: But with all of those uh with all of those issues, it's brought positivity and it's brought different things, and it's brought me people that n I might not necessarily have been able to help because they wouldn't have found me, right?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I bring that into a positive light.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the other thing that I wanted to say was, and this is more business related, when I started my firm, one of the first things that someone told me was, you're gonna fail, um and you're not gonna do well.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're um if your dream is to have a business, to have a law firm, to do whatever, right?
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um don't listen to the noise, to the background noise, because I've been able to do it and I've been able to do it better, and I've been able to do it well.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: And had I taken that advice, even though it sits with me seven years later, um, it's pushed me to do what I've done today, and it's pushed me to continue building this this firm and this company and building it in a way that I'm super proud of.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanna that you want to share?
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: You're so welcome.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for taking the time to do this.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I really genuinely love you know really everything that you've talked about.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so glad that your post about culture brought you into my LinkedIn orbit.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I really truly look forward to learning from you as my firm grows and um and you really have such a beautiful handle on how to really have a people first mentality around what you're building.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, what if that's just you know one of the reason that I'm developing this wellness asquire community and the podcast being part of that is to ultimately transform the legal industry into what you and I know it needs to be.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there are so many more people, lawyers, like like us with this people first, you know, high, um, you know, strong focus on morals and ethics and the way we treat people and all of that stuff and on well-being.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: That we just don't know each other.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to get everybody in this sort of club together so we can learn from each other, shift the industry, and um, and make all the things that we're kind of talking about loudly the norm.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for being for doing, for playing your role in building what you're building and for sharing your story and for being part of uh what someone else, one of my other guests called a revolution, which I'm gonna keep using that word because I like it.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so thank you so much.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe right now.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know you.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: See ya next time.