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The Innuendo of Happiness: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like Enough · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:03
  Peter: You are listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal truths that we see woven through culture, consciousness, and the human experience.
• 0:18
  Ryan: Good morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
• 0:22
  Ryan: I'm Ryan,
• 0:23
  Peter: I'm Peter,
• 0:23
  Ryan: and today we are discussing, neuroscientist Marjorie Woollacott PhD.
• 0:30
  Ryan: we came across her from another episode from the Essentia Foundation, which I recommend you follow and consume their content.
• 0:39
  Ryan: Their interviews are quite good, and their guest list is.
• 0:43
  Ryan: Extensive and interesting.
• 0:44
  Ryan: this video we are not necessarily gonna speak on line by line or topic by topic, but the, commentary comes from a video that is called New Evidence for Out of Body Experience and Perennial Wisdom.
• 1:00
  Ryan: we will of course link this video in the, description or chat.
• 1:04
  Ryan: But Marjorie Wilcott is Emeritus, professor of Human Psychology, emeritus Professor of Human Physiology and member of the Institute of Neuroscience at the University of Oregon.
• 1:18
  Ryan: And she was also chair of the Human Physiology Department for seven years.
• 1:23
  Ryan: In addition to that, she teaches Courses on neuroscience and rehabilitation.
• 1:27
  Ryan: and alternative medicine and meditation.
• 1:30
  Ryan: And so this neuroscientist, she, as far as a little bit of background and context, was a, institutionally taught and successful neuroscientist and stout materialist.
• 1:44
  Ryan: And her experience was an invitation to a meditation that she was skeptical about.
• 1:52
  Ryan: At least that's how she seemed to frame it.
• 1:54
  Ryan: It was open-minded, but didn't seem fully on board and.
• 1:58
  Ryan: Had the experience of overwhelming openness and love and oneness.
• 2:04
  Ryan: And some of this may be my own language around her experience, but basically, I mean, she describes it as an awakening experience.
• 2:13
  Ryan: the point was that immediately following that her, worldview changed around fundamental reality and the nature of consciousness and the nature of consciousness as fundamental and material emerging out of, or as a result of consciousness as opposed to the
• 2:32
  Ryan: materialist, view.
• 2:33
  Ryan: Working sort of converse to that.
• 2:35
  Ryan: With that, the first thing that came to mind for me is this recurring theme, which we had talked about on a previous episode of esteemed scientists who come into contact with the mystical experience and then are immediately drawn
• 2:53
  Ryan: to how to describe it and use the scientific method to explain this experience of which they have intuitive understanding and knowledge
• 3:02
  Peter: And, and it draws them into consciousness research and the.
• 3:07
  Peter: Non materialist perspective.
• 3:09
  Peter: Right.
• 3:10
  Peter: so one thing that's interesting is, in her book list is a book of experiences of 20 some scientists, describing their awakening experiences.
• 3:21
  Peter: Yes.
• 3:22
  Ryan: It's called Spiritual Awakenings: Scientists and Academics Describe Their Experiences, so she had this PhD in neuroscience and was an established neuroscientist.
• 3:31
  Ryan: And then after having this experience, and at some point on sabbatical, she did Asian studies.
• 3:37
  Ryan: So that's back in 2000 when she was on sabbatical and she came into contact with Kasmiri shivism.
• 3:45
  Ryan: Which is a non-dual Hindu offshoot or philosophy, from the Kashmir, area of India.
• 3:54
  Ryan: One of the core teachings of Kashmiri Shaivism is, is the.
• 3:59
  Ryan: Fundamental nature of consciousness.
• 4:01
  Ryan: And that seemed to be something that was, that struck her.
• 4:05
  Ryan: And obviously strikes a chord with our worldview as well.
• 4:09
  Ryan: she had this anecdote about her and also other, she mentioned Faggin, who we spoke about mm-hmm.
• 4:18
  Ryan: In the last episode, that by all accounts of the material paradigm, they had achieved the success.
• 4:26
  Ryan: Yes.
• 4:26
  Ryan: And and basically done all the right things.
• 4:29
  Ryan: To air quotes, be happy or find happiness.
• 4:33
  Ryan: And what she found, and she related, Faggin had a similar experience that they weren't happy.
• 4:40
  Ryan: They, had this success and they had the credential and they felt like they did all the right things, the air quotes Right.
• 4:47
  Ryan: Things.
• 4:47
  Ryan: And yet they were finding that they were not happy.
• 4:50
  Peter: Yeah.
• 4:51
  Peter: So, it's a very small part of the video But it's a very central message To the video.
• 4:57
  Peter: as we were kind of discussing how we were approaching this, we were noticing that the beginning and the end of the video.
• 5:06
  Peter: Really contain the core message and all of the rest is a lot of interesting technical detail of how she comes to these realizations and how you might like the, the evidence of the near death experience is kind of
• 5:24
  Peter: like convincing that, consciousness is independent of brain activity, right?
• 5:29
  Peter: Quite convincing.
• 5:30
  Peter: and it seems to be on the surface of it, that seems to be the point of the video.
• 5:34
  Peter: But then as we discussed it, that's not the point of the video, right?
• 5:37
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 5:37
  Peter: The point of the video is how to be happy.
• 5:39
  Peter: it's just kind of packaged in, basically a materialist.
• 5:44
  Peter: Context of, of, supporting the consciousness, first paradigm.
• 5:49
  Peter: Right?
• 5:50
  Peter: Right.
• 5:50
  Peter: So it's kind of this intellectual discussion of all that.
• 5:53
  Peter: But for me, the takeaway is this identification or discussion of the nature of happiness.
• 6:01
  Peter: Right.
• 6:01
  Peter: Because she starts out saying, this is what is not the path to happiness.
• 6:07
  Peter: Yep.
• 6:07
  Peter: Which is what we're taught.
• 6:09
  Peter: And then at the end she kinda says, this is what happiness is like.
• 6:14
  Peter: Right.
• 6:14
  Peter: Well, okay, so I said, this is what happiness is like.
• 6:17
  Peter: And I think really the way she would might describe it is.
• 6:21
  Peter: This is what awakening is like or being awake is like mm-hmm.
• 6:25
  Peter: In terms of that optical illusion metaphor that she brings at the end.
• 6:28
  Peter: now, what I just did was I equated awakening with happiness.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 6:33
  Peter: And so this is another thing that we had touched on before coming into this, was our relationship to the word happiness.
• 6:41
  Peter: Yeah.
• 6:41
  Peter: And you were saying that you're not actually very comfortable with the word happiness and I find myself more and more comfortable with the word happiness Or the idea of happiness.
• 6:52
  Peter: so yeah, I guess I kind of want to go there and, and, and one of the questions I also had though around this very initial.
• 7:00
  Peter: Thing that she introduces and that, and that you're pulling outta this, you know, that we're doing all the right things.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Mm.
• 7:07
  Peter: It's like, well, where's that, where are those messages?
• 7:09
  Peter: Right?
• 7:09
  Peter: Like, where is it called?
• 7:11
  Peter: The right thing.
• 7:12
  Peter: And so I was thinking about this a little bit, and certainly for me, and I imagine for most people, a lot of it's from parents because parents want you to be happy, right?
• 7:23
  Peter: I mean, parents are pushing you in certain directions to the extent that they push you, because they want you to be happy.
• 7:29
  Peter: And often to the extent that they don't push you.
• 7:32
  Peter: It's because they want you to be happy.
• 7:33
  Peter: Like, well, my parents pushed me, it was horrible and I don't like it, and so I'm not gonna push my kids.
• 7:37
  Peter: which is kind of where I am.
• 7:39
  Peter: so part of the message is from parents.
• 7:41
  Peter: It's like, well, you wanna be sure to get a good job.
• 7:44
  Peter: You know why?
• 7:45
  Peter: Well, we want you to be happy.
• 7:46
  Peter: We want you to be successful.
• 7:47
  Peter: We want you to be successful because we want you to be happy.
• 7:50
  Peter: So it's all tied to this accomplishment.
• 7:53
  Peter: I think it's really, really common in many cultures, for parents to attach happiness to success.
• 8:02
  Peter: In your culture.
• 8:03
  Peter: Which means having a position of respect in your culture and, other aspects of success, whatever success means, and very often it means material acquisition and materialistic success.
• 8:18
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 8:18
  Peter: having a job that pays well.
• 8:21
  Peter: And that.
• 8:21
  Peter: Carries clout and respect and social standing.
• 8:26
  Peter: And then if you have all those things, you're more likely to be happy.
• 8:30
  Peter: That's the message.
• 8:31
  Peter: Not that it's gonna make you happy, but if you don't have those things, you are gonna be much more at risk for unhappiness.
• 8:38
  Peter: 'cause you're gonna have all these problems and those problems will make you unhappy.
• 8:41
  Peter: And I think that's the general parental message.
• 8:45
  Peter: And then of course, that's the general message of the educational system is, well, you wanna do these things so that you can take the next step, right?
• 8:54
  Peter: You're gonna get out of high school and you're going to go to college.
• 8:58
  Peter: Or if you're not in a college track, they're still orienting you towards, well, you're not college bound and that's okay, but you're gonna have.
• 9:06
  Peter: This trade, are you gonna have this way of being successful?
• 9:10
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 9:10
  Peter: And that's what we're preparing you.
• 9:12
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 9:12
  Peter: We're preparing you.
• 9:13
  Peter: Right.
• 9:13
  Peter: All schools do that.
• 9:14
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 9:14
  Peter: And then colleges do that too.
• 9:15
  Peter: We're preparing you for success.
• 9:17
  Peter: Why?
• 9:18
  Peter: Right.
• 9:18
  Peter: Because that's how you can be happy.
• 9:20
  Peter: Because if you're not successful, you're not gonna be happy.
• 9:23
  Peter: I mean, that's the subtext of all of this messaging.
• 9:27
  Peter: And I think the confusing thing is it's not explicit.
• 9:30
  Peter: Like no one is willing to say, here's how you're gonna be happy.
• 9:34
  Peter: It's all implied.
• 9:35
  Peter: It's all innuendo.
• 9:37
  Peter: The innuendo of happiness.
• 9:38
  Peter: And then of course, I like that we're gonna write a book on that.
• 9:41
  Peter: And then of course, um, surrounding all that, like you're embedded in this culture of commercial materialism.
• 9:48
  Peter: there's all that media messaging around.
• 9:52
  Peter: These people are happier.
• 9:53
  Peter: Look at all these people.
• 9:55
  Peter: Let's, idolize, promote, focus on all these people who they're happier than you are.
• 10:02
  Peter: Right?
• 10:03
  Peter: Why?
• 10:03
  Peter: Because they're more successful, they're more attractive, they're more famous.
• 10:07
  Peter: They're more like all these reasons.
• 10:09
  Peter: And why are they important?
• 10:10
  Peter: Because they're happier than you are.
• 10:13
  Peter: Or at the very least, they're more successful than you are, and therefore, more likely to be happier, they have more access to happiness than you do.
• 10:22
  Peter: Because look at all these images of them having a good time.
• 10:26
  Peter: and these may be real people.
• 10:28
  Peter: they may be fantasies of commercials.
• 10:31
  Peter: Right?
• 10:32
  Peter: Or fantasies of fiction and media.
• 10:34
  Peter: But regardless, that's the messaging.
• 10:37
  Peter: and then there's some messaging, there's some counterculture messaging of, well, here's some people who are dropouts and they're brilliant and they're adventurers and they, you know, they're mavericks and they, they don't have any regard for society, but they're
• 10:50
  Peter: adventurous and they're this and that.
• 10:52
  Peter: Okay.
• 10:53
  Peter: And they're gonna be happy.
• 10:54
  Peter: Right.
• 10:55
  Peter: And so all these weird messages about happiness that we have.
• 10:59
  Peter: So I was just trying to explore in my mind a little bit.
• 11:03
  Peter: Like, okay.
• 11:03
  Peter: Where for me, that's what messaging around happiness is.
• 11:08
  Peter: And then of course you can go down the religious road too, which we've done plenty.
• 11:11
  Peter: So now I wanna come back to you because of your comment About that.
• 11:15
  Peter: So, yeah.
• 11:16
  Peter: So what's that about?
• 11:16
  Ryan: so this has been a recurring friction or resistance in myself over the course of our discussions, and not exclusive to our discussions, but happiness is a term that you've used frequently, and it's a term that many people use,
• 11:33
  Ryan: as a noun and also the pursuit of, The Journey towards happiness and the goal and pursuit of happiness.
• 11:43
  Ryan: And my recognition of my own resistance to this as a term is only more recent.
• 11:49
  Ryan: since we've been talking more about it, and I raised it because she mentions specifically this concept of happiness.
• 11:59
  Ryan: The pursuit of happiness in the beginning, in the context of the materialist paradigm of happiness, which as you said it's implicit, it's extremely pervasive.
• 12:12
  Peter: success is
• 12:13
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 12:14
  Ryan: even if the explicit language is success doesn't equal happiness.
• 12:19
  Ryan: It's still mm-hmm.
• 12:20
  Ryan: the message.
• 12:21
  Ryan: Right.
• 12:21
  Ryan: It's weird the way that happens.
• 12:23
  Peter: it's like the comedy bit of the person saying Yes.
• 12:26
  Peter: And shaking their head no.
• 12:27
  Peter: Right.
• 12:27
  Peter: Exactly.
• 12:27
  Peter: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Ryan: And so I recognize that I have this resistance to the term happiness, and it's curious to me.
• 12:35
  Ryan: And so I took note of it for us to have a little discussion around it.
• 12:39
  Ryan: Not that I have an answer, I don't know why.
• 12:42
  Ryan: Although I'm starting to intuit, maybe I relate the term happiness to this conventional understanding of happiness.
• 12:51
  Ryan: And so when people say, I want to be happy, I don't think that's what they want.
• 12:56
  Ryan: And while happiness, I think is a byproduct of what I think people want.
• 13:01
  Ryan: Our understanding of what happiness is, is skewed and distorted.
• 13:07
  Peter: A a and, and by contrast, I feel quite strongly about it and quite comfortable with it.
• 13:12
  Peter: Right.
• 13:13
  Peter: And I, and I think I see hearing you talk and having had so many conversations along these lines, I think I, I, I definitely can speculate as to what the difference is between your perception and my perception.
• 13:26
  Peter: And I would attribute it to our different relationships to coming into contact with fundamental wellbeing.
• 13:33
  Peter: where for you, fundamental wellbeing as a familiar baseline creates a kind of hard act to follow.
• 13:42
  Peter: Mm.
• 13:42
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 13:43
  Peter: And so, Whereas for me, I think I have a much, clearer perception of the difference right.
• 13:52
  Peter: Between unhappiness and happiness and, and because I know life was like for me three years ago And I know what it's like for me now.
• 14:02
  Peter: Right.
• 14:02
  Peter: And so to me, that's gone.
• 14:05
  Peter: That's like, oh, now I'm happy.
• 14:06
  Peter: That's very clear.
• 14:08
  Peter: and the way I would describe it and, and, and I guess here's, here's where I can understand the problem with the word happiness.
• 14:17
  Peter: because even.
• 14:19
  Peter: Talking to people with non-dual experience?
• 14:23
  Peter: Well, particularly talking to people with non-dual experience.
• 14:25
  Peter: Right.
• 14:26
  Peter: I think there's a tendency for them to be resistant to the term happiness.
• 14:30
  Peter: I think even my mentor said something about fundamental wellbeing or, open awareness or whatever we're gonna call that thing, that it's not really happy, it's peaceful.
• 14:44
  Ryan: So that's what I wrote 'cause I've raised this distinction to you before where I've said I don't think it's happiness that people want.
• 14:52
  Ryan: It's peace and contentment.
• 14:54
  Ryan: And you're like, yeah, that's happiness.
• 14:55
  Peter: But now I have a very specific insight to that.
• 14:58
  Peter: Yeah.
• 14:58
  Peter: which is, from, Dick Schwartz and, IFS internal Family Systems.
• 15:02
  Peter: He has the eight Cs, calm, connected, compassionate, courageous, clear, curious, confident, creative.
• 15:10
  Peter: And these are the characteristics of what, he calls true self.
• 15:15
  Peter: But he's also pretty clear that it's what people might call the divine, or what we would call fundamental wellbeing.
• 15:22
  Peter: and none of these say happy.
• 15:24
  Peter: Right?
• 15:24
  Peter: Right.
• 15:25
  Peter: and I think my experiences that, alright, so I was, I was having an experience on the beach, just sinking and feeling good and thinking about what my mentor said of like, oh, it's really not happiness, it's, it's more
• 15:43
  Peter: contentment.
• 15:44
  Peter: Right?
• 15:44
  Peter: And I realize, well, what's going on here?
• 15:46
  Peter: Why do I have this excitement, this.
• 15:50
  Peter: Energetic positive feeling mm-hmm.
• 15:52
  Peter: That I call happiness.
• 15:54
  Peter: Like, God dammit, I feel happy.
• 15:55
  Peter: I don't know what you're talking about.
• 15:57
  Peter: Like, it's not ha like I feel happy and I, I looked at the way I was experiencing it and it's like, I think happiness is the ego coming into contact with fundamental wellbeing.
• 16:09
  Peter: If you are completely away from your ego, then I think you don't have a sense of happiness.
• 16:15
  Peter: Okay.
• 16:15
  Peter: I think you can have love, compassion, joy and equanimity, which I'm pulling from, from Buddhism.
• 16:23
  Peter: But to me those are the characteristics of fundamental wellbeing.
• 16:28
  Peter: as well as the eight Cs of Schwartz.
• 16:31
  Peter: but again, none of the, I mean, joy is kind of.
• 16:35
  Peter: There's a happiness to it, but it's kind of not the same.
• 16:37
  Peter: I think they're different.
• 16:38
  Peter: There's a Yeah.
• 16:38
  Peter: 'cause when I am like sinking in deeply, I'm aware of a joy that's not what I would call happiness.
• 16:47
  Peter: But when I allow my ego to resurface out of that, that's, that's where it is.
• 16:54
  Peter: So I think you have to be more in touch with an ego identity than, a lot of people in non-dual experience.
• 17:02
  Peter: Yeah.
• 17:03
  Peter: where it's like, yeah, I don't care about happiness.
• 17:05
  Peter: Right.
• 17:05
  Peter: Happiness isn't real.
• 17:07
  Peter: This isn't real.
• 17:08
  Peter: And there's That depth of non-duality where you lose that experience of happiness.
• 17:15
  Peter: 'cause you're so far below the surface of experience.
• 17:20
  Peter: Hmm.
• 17:20
  Peter: You're not at surface experience anymore.
• 17:23
  Peter: You're deep in awareness.
• 17:24
  Peter: Right.
• 17:25
  Peter: you're below the, the surface of senses.
• 17:28
  Peter: Right.
• 17:28
  Peter: So I think happiness, I, I think what I experience is that happiness is tied to connection to the senses and to the ego, which is to say the material world.
• 17:42
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 17:42
  Peter: Right.
• 17:42
  Peter: And I think, so happiness is the result of integration of consciousness with.
• 17:50
  Peter: Material experience or ego experience.
• 17:52
  Peter: Okay.
• 17:52
  Peter: Of this open awareness, non-ego, maybe non-dual experience, if you call it that, merged with the ego experience and it's, yeah.
• 18:03
  Peter: Does that, does that make sense?
• 18:05
  Ryan: I think it does.
• 18:06
  Ryan: I think it also highlights where the resistance kind of comes from.
• 18:12
  Ryan: One thing you did describe, which is a characteristic I associate with the term happiness, which is excitement.
• 18:21
  Ryan: I think that's what people perceive happiness to be.
• 18:23
  Ryan: Like when I'm excited, I'm happy kind of thing.
• 18:26
  Ryan: And I don't think that's true, but I think.
• 18:29
  Ryan: Many people think of happiness as that being exciting feeling
• 18:34
  Peter: of
• 18:34
  Ryan: being excited.
• 18:35
  Peter: And I think it's a cultural bias maybe.
• 18:37
  Peter: Right.
• 18:38
  Peter: Definitely.
• 18:39
  Peter: I would agree with you in our culture.
• 18:41
  Peter: Sure.
• 18:41
  Peter: Okay.
• 18:42
  Peter: Yeah.
• 18:42
  Peter: That's fair.
• 18:42
  Peter: Like, oh, peacefulness is boring.
• 18:44
  Peter: Right, right.
• 18:45
  Peter: That's not happiness.
• 18:46
  Peter: I mean, of course there are many people who are looking for peace.
• 18:50
  Peter: And they think, I mean, and, and they would say that would bring me happiness.
• 18:55
  Peter: Right, right.
• 18:56
  Peter: But that's not typical in our culture.
• 18:58
  Peter: Right.
• 18:58
  Peter: I think what you're saying is more typical in our culture that there's this idea of, and again, it's cultural imagery.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: People
• 19:06
  Peter: doing exciting things and smiling and being together with.
• 19:10
  Peter: romantic.
• 19:11
  Peter: Context and, or, or potential romantic context, right?
• 19:15
  Peter: Like, you know, you're at a party, you're at a bar, you're members of, you know, sexually attractive people, whoever's sexually attractive to you.
• 19:21
  Peter: like, that's how you portray happiness in media.
• 19:24
  Ryan: I think fun comes along with the idea of happiness, at least in our culture.
• 19:30
  Ryan: Sure.
• 19:30
  Ryan: I mean, I'm acknowledging that my perspective comes almost exclusively from my experience in our American culture.
• 19:38
  Ryan: Right?
• 19:39
  Ryan: Right.
• 19:39
  Ryan: but fun is, I think, associated with happiness.
• 19:44
  Ryan: And I think that, number one, I agree and I have said before, I think Joy has a different qualitative state than happiness as a term.
• 19:55
  Ryan: In my own perception, joy is different than happiness.
• 20:00
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 20:00
  Ryan: And I'm much more comfortable with the term joy, peace, contentment, all these things.
• 20:07
  Ryan: Now you mentioned, you know, the non dualist sort of worldview from a disconnection, from ego identity.
• 20:16
  Ryan: But I feel like this is the way I experience things.
• 20:19
  Ryan: I don't qualify the things that I experience as happiness, and I also don't think that I'm deep into non-dual, you know what I mean?
• 20:30
  Peter: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Peter: so here's another thing that comes to me is that happiness is conditional.
• 20:36
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 20:36
  Peter: Happiness is tied to conditions.
• 20:38
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 20:39
  Peter: And I would say that from my experience, like I am happy in these conditions, right?
• 20:45
  Peter: like, I love my conditions right now.
• 20:46
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 20:46
  Peter: but that's why, and that's I think is the same as saying it's.
• 20:53
  Peter: Ego based.
• 20:53
  Peter: Right.
• 20:54
  Peter: whereas Joy, which you're more comfortable with, is unconditional.
• 20:58
  Peter: Right.
• 20:58
  Peter: joy is something that comes to us in, it's a characteristic of sinking in.
• 21:04
  Peter: Yeah.
• 21:04
  Peter: yeah, unconditional joy is just a thing that we talk about in these circles of awakening experience.
• 21:11
  Peter: Right.
• 21:11
  Peter: we might say, oh, I see this and joy arises, but it's different.
• 21:15
  Peter: It's a correlation not causation.
• 21:17
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 21:17
  Peter: Right?
• 21:18
  Peter: Yes.
• 21:18
  Peter: Yeah.
• 21:18
  Peter: it's not a causal thing.
• 21:20
  Peter: Right, So joy versus happiness.
• 21:22
  Peter: I'm really convinced that has a lot to do with ego.
• 21:25
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 21:25
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 21:25
  Ryan: It, I agree.
• 21:26
  Peter: It has to do with, conditioned experience, which is not terrible.
• 21:31
  Peter: Right.
• 21:31
  Peter: It's just, it's not everything.
• 21:34
  Peter: And that's the problem with it is our relationship with conditions saying that it's, I mean, that's the materialist view, right?
• 21:42
  Peter: I mean, literally it's what, what, what is material?
• 21:46
  Peter: E existence.
• 21:47
  Peter: What is space time?
• 21:47
  Peter: It's conditions.
• 21:48
  Peter: Yeah.
• 21:49
  Peter: and being tied to that is contrary to what?
• 21:54
  Peter: Contrary to, to na true nature.
• 21:57
  Peter: Right.
• 21:57
  Peter: but it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that you can never be happy in it.
• 22:01
  Peter: And maybe in a sense you can only be happy in it.
• 22:03
  Peter: It's just you shouldn't be fooled that it is the source of happiness or that it is permanent happiness.
• 22:10
  Peter: Hmm.
• 22:10
  Peter: because I think, well, I think you can't be happy in it without including true nature.
• 22:19
  Peter: I think that's okay.
• 22:20
  Peter: That's the problem is the tendency to deny true nature or neglect true nature, and then seek cap happiness and conditions and you won't.
• 22:30
  Peter: Right.
• 22:31
  Peter: I think It's the meeting of the two that creates what we would call happiness, what we would recognize as happiness, as like a true happiness.
• 22:41
  Peter: True happiness.
• 22:42
  Peter: And then is the meaning these other things would be the
• 22:44
  Ryan: conditions of material with the fundamental nature of true self?
• 22:49
  Peter: Yes.
• 22:50
  Peter: And I think without that contact.
• 22:53
  Peter: Then you end up with this superficial happiness Of materialism, which is so familiar.
• 23:00
  Peter: And so unsatisfying
• 23:02
  Ryan: So, is it just a terminology thing I agree.
• 23:05
  Ryan: I think with what you're saying, and yet I still have this resistance to using the term happiness.
• 23:12
  Ryan: Even if we define happiness as what you're saying, I almost feel like we're forcing a term into something that it isn't.
• 23:20
  Ryan: Like, is there a difference between happiness and peace and contentment?
• 23:24
  Ryan: And I guess it sounds like you're saying there is because there's the egos,
• 23:28
  Peter: You know, the way I described it was the dog reaction.
• 23:33
  Peter: It's this jumping tail wagging Yeah.
• 23:35
  Peter: Tongue wagging Yes.
• 23:37
  Peter: Energy.
• 23:37
  Peter: Yes.
• 23:38
  Peter: And that's the way I felt on the beach.
• 23:40
  Peter: I was like lying there quietly, really looking at the sky.
• 23:43
  Peter: I'm like, oh my God, this is so exciting to be okay.
• 23:48
  Peter: Peaceful.
• 23:48
  Peter: okay.
• 23:48
  Peter: It was very exciting to be peaceful.
• 23:50
  Peter: So that is different.
• 23:51
  Peter: Yes, it is different.
• 23:52
  Peter: And that's why, that's why I feel, I, I feel quite, I mean, I'm talking about my own experience, of course I'm not saying this for anybody else, but for me, I feel completely confident in saying, this is what
• 24:07
  Peter: happiness is to me.
• 24:08
  Peter: And you think that that
• 24:09
  Ryan: is the pursuit.
• 24:10
  Ryan: Or do you think that's just symptomatic of achieving the true pursuit?
• 24:14
  Peter: Now I don't know, because I mean, I'm talking about, I'm talking about an experience.
• 24:19
  Peter: I don't know what a pursuit is.
• 24:20
  Peter: No,
• 24:20
  Ryan: no.
• 24:20
  Ryan: Well, do I wish someone
• 24:21
  Peter: had told me to
• 24:22
  Ryan: pursue this?
• 24:22
  Ryan: No.
• 24:22
  Ryan: No, no.
• 24:23
  Ryan: That's not, that's not what I mean.
• 24:24
  Ryan: I mean, when we say things like, I want to be happy or I'm, I'm looking to be happy, that is what I mean by like the pursuit.
• 24:32
  Ryan: And what I think people mean by that is I want to experience peace and contentment.
• 24:38
  Ryan: Not that they want to experience happiness, but that happiness can be a byproduct of achieving peace and contentment.
• 24:46
  Ryan: Yeah, that you don't, you don't pursue happiness, you pursue peace and contentment, and from there you may like what you're describing.
• 24:53
  Ryan: I don't experience very often, if at all, and in fact, I don't like that kind of excitement when I feel it, I have said this before.
• 25:00
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:01
  Ryan: When I feel that It comes off as an anxiety, that kind of mm-hmm.
• 25:04
  Ryan: Stimulus makes me
• 25:06
  Peter: uncomfortable and, and I can speculate as to why that is.
• 25:10
  Peter: Why because there's a recognition of the impermanence of it.
• 25:13
  Peter: That makes you anxious, that makes you anxious.
• 25:16
  Peter: It just gave me chills.
• 25:16
  Peter: and so I, I was gonna elaborate a little bit on, because I, you know, I was saying, oh, I love my conditions.
• 25:23
  Peter: I, you know, it's not perfect.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 25:25
  Peter: Like, I have some challenges.
• 25:27
  Peter: I'm dealing with, some concerns and a lot of imperfections going on in my situation.
• 25:34
  Peter: I also have a lot of great advantages and great, like, positive conditions going on, but it's not perfect.
• 25:40
  Peter: Right?
• 25:40
  Peter: But the thing is, I'm able to recognize the imperfection without attributing any significance to it.
• 25:49
  Peter: And yet.
• 25:50
  Peter: I definitely have a sense of ego.
• 25:52
  Peter: I definitely have a sense of, I mean, it's not just pure presence, it's not just, it's not just peace and contentment.
• 25:58
  Ryan: Right.
• 25:59
  Peter: Right.
• 25:59
  Peter: There's an appreciation of having been outside of peace and contentment.
• 26:05
  Peter: Sure.
• 26:05
  Peter: And, and I think that's, for me, a big piece of the difference.
• 26:12
  Peter: the other thing is pursuing peace and contentment.
• 26:15
  Peter: That.
• 26:15
  Peter: Doesn't resonate with me.
• 26:16
  Peter: And I think that what would often happen with pursuing peace and contentment and succeeding is that you end up dropping ego.
• 26:26
  Peter: And then having peace and contentment and not experiencing happiness.
• 26:29
  Peter: it's almost like, closer to Nirvana extinction.
• 26:33
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  Peter: Right.
• 26:34
  Peter: Of loss of ego, loss of the suffering of ego, and then peace and contentment.
• 26:40
  Peter: And that's where you are.
• 26:42
  Peter: And there may be joy arising, but it's not what you would recognize as happiness.
• 26:47
  Peter: Right.
• 26:47
  Peter: Right.
• 26:48
  Peter: And you wouldn't talk about it the way I'm talking about it.
• 26:51
  Peter: Like I, I, I, I'm enjoying this.
• 26:53
  Peter: This is like, I like this because there's too much detachment, right?
• 26:58
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 26:58
  Peter: It's like, this is fine, this is permanent.
• 27:01
  Peter: This is true.
• 27:02
  Peter: This is the way it is and it's got all this other stuff like confidence.
• 27:08
  Peter: And I can see all these other aspects to it, but I think without the, God, I'm, the more I say this, the more I'm convinced of it without some, I I wanna say involvement of ego, like a definite
• 27:21
  Peter: contact of, a healthy dose of ego.
• 27:24
  Peter: Okay.
• 27:24
  Peter: You know, that's not, it's not ego, it's not the unhealthy ego where the ego is saying.
• 27:30
  Peter: I'm all there is.
• 27:31
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 27:31
  Peter: And it was just pulls me back to, McGilchrist's, two hemisphere.
• 27:37
  Peter: Yep.
• 27:37
  Peter: Brain thing of the left brain.
• 27:39
  Peter: Just saying that this is all there is, logic is the only thing that's valid.
• 27:43
  Peter: this is the only reality.
• 27:45
  Peter: You know, I've got my words, I've got my analysis, and I can, do this science and see these things and this is it.
• 27:51
  Peter: and everything that I say is true and, everything that I know is all that exists.
• 27:56
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 27:56
  Peter: That's ego.
• 27:57
  Peter: Ego.
• 27:58
  Peter: Right.
• 27:58
  Peter: Right.
• 27:59
  Peter: And then, the right hemisphere can come in and say, ah, just that.
• 28:03
  Ryan: So the one experience that I was thinking was skiing, I've mentioned many times before my affinity with skiing.
• 28:12
  Ryan: It's, I guess, one of the purest activities that I participate in, but it's very in the moment, which is obviously lovely as well because you're extremely present in that moment.
• 28:25
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 28:25
  Ryan: there is an energy and an excitement that isn't unpleasant for me, especially at speed, which is the way I like to ski.
• 28:33
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 28:34
  Ryan: but as we were talking and I was thinking about it, I still think that it, it's more in line with joy mm-hmm.
• 28:40
  Ryan: Than happiness.
• 28:42
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 28:42
  Ryan: But less so peace.
• 28:43
  Ryan: 'cause there's mm-hmm.
• 28:44
  Ryan: There's an activity going on.
• 28:45
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 28:45
  Ryan: There.
• 28:46
  Ryan: Um, so am I happy when I'm
• 28:48
  Peter: skiing?
• 28:49
  Peter: And, what's interesting to me is that makes complete sense to me.
• 28:52
  Peter: like, I have no sense of like, oh no, well then that means you're happy.
• 28:56
  Peter: Right?
• 28:56
  Peter: It's like, oh no, that makes complete sense that there's an absorption and a joy of flow state that is distinct from happiness.
• 29:06
  Peter: Happiness.
• 29:07
  Ryan: And then my other question is, I guess this may be rhetorical, but I have had people who are close to me say, you don't seem happy I think you're unhappy, and I am certain I am not unhappy, but
• 29:23
  Ryan: the absence of happiness does not mean unhappy.
• 29:26
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 29:27
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 29:27
  Ryan: And so that is a distinction that I've had people observe about my demeanor and presence, that when I'm content and peaceful sometimes is read as unhappy.
• 29:41
  Peter: So I think what's very typical is to look for specific cues, interpreting someone's happiness state.
• 29:50
  Peter: Right?
• 29:51
  Peter: Yeah.
• 29:51
  Peter: In particular, happiness.
• 29:52
  Peter: Right.
• 29:53
  Peter: And it's like you, you're not displaying the markers.
• 29:56
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 29:56
  Peter: Therefore you do not fall into this definition.
• 29:59
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 29:59
  Peter: Because.
• 30:00
  Peter: When I interact with people, this is what my markers are for this interaction.
• 30:05
  Peter: I mean, and that's an interpersonal Thing, right?
• 30:08
  Peter: That's a perception, interpersonal perception thing.
• 30:10
  Peter: Right.
• 30:11
  Peter: Of you look happy to me, you don't look happy to me.
• 30:14
  Peter: And obviously people's perceptions are entirely dependent on their state.
• 30:20
  Ryan: I wonder if that's partially why continue to have this resistance to it?
• 30:23
  Ryan: Sure.
• 30:24
  Ryan: Right.
• 30:24
  Ryan: I mean, that makes sense to the term and as happiness.
• 30:26
  Ryan: Sure.
• 30:26
  Ryan: That totally
• 30:27
  Peter: makes sense.
• 30:27
  Ryan: But I like your, your description of the beach.
• 30:30
  Ryan: That makes sense to me.
• 30:32
  Ryan: Like.
• 30:33
  Ryan: That's an appropriate use of happiness.
• 30:35
  Peter: I was doing absolutely nothing.
• 30:39
  Peter: I was like, my wife was, reading or something.
• 30:42
  Peter: She was sitting up mm-hmm.
• 30:44
  Peter: I was lying back, I was looking at the sky, but I wasn't looking.
• 30:47
  Peter: I was just, my eyes were open.
• 30:49
  Peter: I was appreciating the blue and I was just experiencing what I was experiencing and just had this very absolute puppy dog image and, and, and then I was intentionally like, okay, this is a great place to sink in.
• 31:06
  Peter: and yet I wasn't sinking in, in a way where there was a lot of quiet, and a lot of spaciousness.
• 31:15
  Peter: Like that's not where the focus was.
• 31:16
  Peter: The focus was on enjoyment mm-hmm.
• 31:19
  Peter: Of the experience, and it had this energy to it.
• 31:22
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 31:23
  Peter: The enjoyment of this experience of doing nothing at all and making no effort to do anything of at all or change anything at all had the quality of activity.
• 31:37
  Ryan: I picked up on the word enjoy, and there are many things I enjoy, and of course the, the construct of the word brings is joy.
• 31:46
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 31:47
  Ryan: But that, those are different as well, right.
• 31:49
  Ryan: that happiness maybe is a result of enjoyment, but the enjoy and happiness are not synonyms.
• 31:59
  Peter: I don't know.
• 32:00
  Peter: I'm trying to get any more insight into what that experience was like.
• 32:05
  Peter: The puppy dog imagery is perfect.
• 32:07
  Peter: I mean.
• 32:08
  Peter: It was funny because, I had this response of, dude, you're being a, a, what is it called?
• 32:12
  Peter: Downer.
• 32:13
  Peter: A kill buzz.
• 32:13
  Peter: Kill..
• 32:14
  Peter: Um, because part of what I was doing while we're having this conversation was checking into my experience.
• 32:20
  Peter: Sure.
• 32:20
  Peter: And you know, how present am I?
• 32:22
  Peter: And I think I'm, I'm very present.
• 32:25
  Peter: Like, I'm not thinking about what I'm saying.
• 32:26
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 32:27
  Peter: I'm not, I'm not thinking about, well how will this sound?
• 32:30
  Peter: Or what is it gonna be like afterwards or anything like that.
• 32:34
  Peter: I'm looking back a bit 'cause I'm recalling the beach, but other than that.
• 32:40
  Peter: I feel very present and I still have this sense of what I would call happiness.
• 32:47
  Peter: my ego is definitely engaged because my intellect is engaged in description and analysis and trying to communicate and trying to share the experience.
• 33:01
  Peter: Successfully.
• 33:02
  Peter: So there's an engagement that's different from just peaceful cont contentment.
• 33:07
  Peter: Sure.
• 33:07
  Peter: Right?
• 33:08
  Peter: Yep.
• 33:08
  Peter: and there's an activity.
• 33:09
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 33:09
  Peter: I mean, we are, we are interacting.
• 33:11
  Peter: There's an activity here.
• 33:12
  Ryan: I mean, maybe I do experience happiness.
• 33:15
  Ryan: I don't experience the puppy dog happiness very often.
• 33:18
  Ryan: I don't, I would to the point that I would say I never feel that way.
• 33:22
  Ryan: Do I never, ever feel that way?
• 33:23
  Ryan: Obviously at some point in my life I have felt that way, but it is not a common experience for me.
• 33:28
  Ryan: And that illustration is something I would definitely recognize as.
• 33:35
  Ryan: Pure and true happiness, meaning that dog is in that moment and just absolutely sublime and excited about that moment.
• 33:45
  Ryan: I guess going back to my initial question here, say when I'm painting or something, I am enjoying that moment.
• 33:52
  Ryan: There's not that excitement.
• 33:54
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:55
  Ryan: But maybe it is different than just inactive peace and contentment.
• 33:59
  Ryan: That there is an activity, there is an engagement going on and that there is an enjoyment and recognition of that activity.
• 34:08
  Peter: I think some people call flow state happiness.
• 34:12
  Peter: Okay.
• 34:12
  Peter: I mean, I think, you know.
• 34:13
  Peter: Sounds very familiar.
• 34:14
  Peter: Like, oh, that's when I'm truly happy.
• 34:16
  Peter: Sure.
• 34:16
  Peter: Right.
• 34:16
  Peter: Sure.
• 34:17
  Peter: People are describing, they're like, when I am out on the river and I'm this, and that's when I'm truly happiness.
• 34:23
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 34:23
  Peter: This is where I go to be happy.
• 34:24
  Peter: Okay.
• 34:25
  Peter: And so I think that there is a version that Of happiness.
• 34:27
  Peter: Of happiness that's that.
• 34:29
  Peter: But to your point, right.
• 34:31
  Peter: Would someone then go out with a set of binoculars and look at that person and say, oh, they, they look happy to me.
• 34:38
  Peter: They would probably say, oh, they don't look happy.
• 34:39
  Peter: Like, their face could be, called RBF.
• 34:42
  Peter: Right.
• 34:42
  Peter: Right.
• 34:43
  Peter: And like you couldn't read it.
• 34:44
  Peter: But the, but the subjective experience would be like, I am, I've never felt better.
• 34:49
  Peter: Yes.
• 34:49
  Peter: Right.
• 34:50
  Peter: Right.
• 34:50
  Peter: So I think Okay, there are versions.
• 34:52
  Peter: Sure.
• 34:53
  Peter: Obviously, I'm just sharing like, you know, you're telling me your, your version of not knowing what happiness is, and I'm telling you my version Right.
• 35:03
  Peter: Of like, oh, this sounds very familiar.
• 35:06
  Peter: And just to say, this doesn't mean that every hour of my past week of course, has been like this.
• 35:12
  Peter: my wife would certainly tell it like, oh no, he's a mess.
• 35:15
  Peter: But I have a very easy recognition of being able to look at my life and say, I Yeah, yeah.
• 35:23
  Peter: You know, I am, happy.
• 35:24
  Peter: I mean, obviously right now talking to you, I'm not dealing with any of those imperfections that exist.
• 35:32
  Peter: And when I.
• 35:34
  Peter: Come into contact with them and, oppose them.
• 35:37
  Peter: I'm not happy anymore.
• 35:39
  Peter: Right, right.
• 35:40
  Peter: but that's.
• 35:41
  Peter: Dealing with, and grappling, With life and not just being in complete flow with life.
• 35:47
  Ryan: I don't choose the term happiness, but like, if somebody asks, are you happy?
• 35:50
  Ryan: I, I, well, yeah, I'm happy.
• 35:53
  Ryan: Get off my back.
• 35:53
  Ryan: Well, and because it's, you know, it's a convenient term people, people understand, but
• 35:58
  Peter: its better than saying I'm fine.
• 36:00
  Ryan: Going back to the converse.
• 36:02
  Ryan: how much unhappiness do I experience?
• 36:05
  Ryan: And I would say very little.
• 36:06
  Ryan: How do you describe your experience of unhappiness?
• 36:10
  Ryan: Do you actively have unhappiness frequently still?
• 36:14
  Peter: I think it's objectively true.
• 36:16
  Peter: I mean, this goes to relationship to conditioning, which we've touched on before.
• 36:21
  Peter: It's possible to be in fundamental wellbeing and let your conditioning run and be okay with like, I'm being very reactive, but it's not bothering me.
• 36:30
  Peter: so I'm not unhappy.
• 36:32
  Peter: It's your problem.
• 36:33
  Peter: It's like I'm perfectly content.
• 36:34
  Peter: I'm not unhappy.
• 36:36
  Peter: and for me, I don't experience it that way.
• 36:39
  Peter: 'cause my orientation is one of, I don't I just, in my framework it's like, oh, I don't want to be that way.
• 36:47
  Peter: and, so I will call it unhappy and it feels unhappy.
• 36:50
  Peter: It feels unhappy to recognize that.
• 36:53
  Peter: I'm not behaving outta presence.
• 36:54
  Peter: And you can recognize that.
• 36:55
  Peter: I was triggered, I was caught up.
• 36:57
  Peter: I was, my condition program was running and it felt terrible.
• 37:02
  Ryan: Mm.
• 37:02
  Peter: and I was caught in it.
• 37:03
  Peter: And it's like, yeah.
• 37:05
  Peter: that's not happiness.
• 37:07
  Peter: and people would recognize, You're not happy.
• 37:09
  Ryan: not happy is different than unhappy in my opinion.
• 37:13
  Peter: Okay.
• 37:14
  Peter: Yes.
• 37:15
  Peter: so do I have unhappiness?
• 37:17
  Peter: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Peter: I can't see how else to describe it.
• 37:22
  Peter: can I phrase it in another way so that I can say, I'm not unhappy, I'm just experiencing this or that.
• 37:29
  Peter: It's like, well, that's what, being unhappy, like experiencing things the way that that is, is unhappy is what I call, I'm not happy, I'm unhappy.
• 37:38
  Peter: Right.
• 37:38
  Peter: Not happy, unhappy.
• 37:40
  Peter: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Peter: See, see, for me.
• 37:42
  Peter: Not happy is much closer to unhappy than for you.
• 37:46
  Peter: Not happy doesn't mean anything,
• 37:48
  Ryan: so, so I guess that's kind of what I'm trying to get at.
• 37:51
  Ryan: it feels, it sounds strange.
• 37:54
  Ryan: It doesn't feel strange.
• 37:55
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 37:56
  Ryan: It feels very in line with my intuited experience, but it sounds strange to say I don't really experience happiness.
• 38:06
  Ryan: I don't want to experience happiness.
• 38:08
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 38:09
  Ryan: And I don't really experience unhappiness.
• 38:11
  Ryan: I think most people would call BS on that.
• 38:13
  Ryan: And rightfully so in the conventional understanding.
• 38:17
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 38:17
  Ryan: But that's the way I feel.
• 38:18
  Ryan: And, and, and I guess I'm trying to figure out, and I don't know why none of this really matters, but it's, it's intriguing to me because I've recognized this persistent resistance to the term happiness and unhappiness.
• 38:33
  Ryan: Happiness.
• 38:33
  Ryan: Happiness in general, sort of as a misnomer, although I'm coming around to the, existence of a type of this experience.
• 38:43
  Ryan: But am I just naming it different or is it really qualitatively different?
• 38:50
  Ryan: it sounds like, and obviously we're just one interaction and one experience, but.
• 38:55
  Ryan: From what I've observed of other people around me, I feel like I don't really experience much unhappiness and I don't experience very much happiness, and I'm okay with that.
• 39:05
  Peter: I think so if you wanna talk to other people, so you wanna talk to people other than me who seem to have a clue as to what you're talking about, I would hook into the POK community because I
• 39:19
  Peter: think this is very familiar.
• 39:21
  Peter: In fact, you know, in part of the exercise that I do, there's a step that says, see if you can access gratitude.
• 39:30
  Peter: and if you're in a place where you just don't sense emotions, then.
• 39:34
  Peter: there's a very clear acknowledgement of, you may not have clear access to the emotion of gratitude.
• 39:43
  Peter: and that there, I've been with people who are actually reporting that out.
• 39:49
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 39:49
  Peter: Right.
• 39:49
  Peter: and that, you know, well, I'm appreciating this.
• 39:54
  Peter: There's not really a sense of gratitude and the instruction is like, well, you know, see if you can have some enjoyment of what you're experiencing.
• 40:03
  Peter: And enjoyment can lead to gratitude.
• 40:05
  Peter: Or appreciation.
• 40:06
  Peter: And appreciation Can, you know, and, and, and then people are saying, you know.
• 40:11
  Peter: I have some appreciation.
• 40:12
  Peter: Gratitude isn't quite there, you know, and, there are these subtleties of experience in relationship to emotions that are part of the vernacular of this community.
• 40:25
  Peter: Sure.
• 40:25
  Peter: and so, you know, what you're talking about doesn't sound weird or unfamiliar to me.
• 40:31
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 40:31
  Peter: It's just not my experience.
• 40:33
  Peter: But I am in contact with other people whose experience is different from mine and probably different from mine in a way that's closer to yours.
• 40:43
  Ryan: Mm.
• 40:44
  Ryan: I've expressed previously that I don't feel any, I don't feel like I'm weird, right?
• 40:51
  Ryan: Like, I don't have any sense that what I experience is different or alternative.
• 40:57
  Ryan: But when I hear other people's experience, right.
• 41:00
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 41:00
  Ryan: It just doesn't match.
• 41:01
  Ryan: It doesn't match.
• 41:01
  Ryan: Right, right.
• 41:02
  Peter: Even hearing you say it doesn't, you don't feel weird.
• 41:06
  Peter: Sounds weird to me.
• 41:07
  Peter: It's like, who doesn't feel weird?
• 41:09
  Peter: Uh, so interesting.
• 41:10
  Peter: That reminds me of, so I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of our, my groups, right?
• 41:15
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 41:16
  Peter: the non POK groups.
• 41:18
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 41:18
  Peter: Where, a very common exercise is, kind of who else feels this way?
• 41:23
  Peter: Right.
• 41:23
  Peter: You know, and the call for hands and like, and so there's normalization of, you know, what someone's going through.
• 41:28
  Peter: And it's very, very common.
• 41:29
  Peter: I mean, it's almost without exception, golly, I think it is without exception.
• 41:33
  Peter: I don't think I've ever seen someone deal with someone something and, and have, have a leader say, you know, who else, you know, who's familiar with this?
• 41:43
  Peter: And nobody's hand goes up.
• 41:44
  Peter: Right, right.
• 41:45
  Peter: Um, well that would dangerous situation.
• 41:47
  Peter: Like backfire.
• 41:51
  Peter: well, I don't think it's really possible except, again, I think in, in general, okay.
• 41:58
  Peter: So I would call the group, I'm referring to a healing circle Mm-hmm.
• 42:02
  Peter: these are people who are aware of and confronting things that they perceive as difficult.
• 42:11
  Peter: Yeah.
• 42:11
  Peter: And that's most people.
• 42:14
  Peter: Yeah.
• 42:14
  Peter: But I don't think it's everyone.
• 42:15
  Peter: Sure.
• 42:15
  Peter: And I think, again, if you, if you did the hand raise in a POK session you would.
• 42:21
  Peter: Absolutely.
• 42:23
  Peter: And, and, and probably even historically.
• 42:25
  Peter: Yep.
• 42:25
  Peter: like, so how, how many people have never had this experience?
• 42:29
  Peter: Yeah.
• 42:29
  Peter: or not familiar with this experience, or it sounds odd to them.
• 42:32
  Peter: I'm absolutely sure that you would get hand raises.
• 42:35
  Ryan: Sure.
• 42:36
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 42:36
  Ryan: I mean, I don't think my experience is isolated Right.
• 42:40
  Ryan: By any means, but
• 42:41
  Peter: it's unusual.
• 42:42
  Peter: I think it's been really interesting to have a conversation about subjective experience of happiness.
• 42:50
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 42:50
  Peter: and I'm really curious to hear any kind of response to this conversation because you know, it's like, well to the hand raise exercise.
• 42:58
  Peter: right.
• 42:59
  Peter: Well, is anyone familiar with what the hell I'm talking about?
• 43:01
  Peter: Yeah.
• 43:01
  Peter: Right.
• 43:02
  Peter: Is anyone familiar with what Ryan's talking about?
• 43:04
  Peter: Or is everyone somewhere between?
• 43:06
  Peter: Right.
• 43:07
  Peter: Yeah.
• 43:07
  Peter: and I think it's, I think it's interesting that this fascinating video was a springboard for this conversation, which has very little to do with the video, but I'm still, I still want to come back to the end of
• 43:21
  Peter: the video and the metaphor that, that we talked about, that she, that she introduces, because I think it has to do with what she said at the beginning Where she's saying, I tried all these things and I'm still
• 43:34
  Peter: not happy.
• 43:35
  Peter: And at the end of the video, the interviewer says, what's our takeaway?
• 43:39
  Peter: And she's like, here's the takeaway.
• 43:41
  Peter: And it has nothing to do with what she was talking about.
• 43:43
  Peter: but I think it has everything to do with what she said at the beginning about I wasn't being happy.
• 43:49
  Peter: And at the end she's saying.
• 43:51
  Peter: She's
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: happy.
• 43:52
  Peter: She's
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: happy.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:53
  Peter: and it's really about what's remarkable, I think, is it's about how to be happy working at something important.
• 44:00
  Peter: Because that's what she's talking about.
• 44:02
  Peter: She's like, I didn't abandon my career in science.
• 44:05
  Peter: I am still engaged in serious scientific research and I'm also pursuing this other, this, I don't know what I mean, what, you know, we might call woo kind of stuff, but she's like, I'm doing it in a scientific
• 44:17
  Peter: way.
• 44:17
  Peter: and she talks about how yeah, how she's continuing but in a different way.
• 44:23
  Peter: Which is, I mean, I guess it's the story of most of the other scientists who have awakening and they don't stop being scientists.
• 44:30
  Peter: That's the whole point.
• 44:31
  Peter: That's the point.
• 44:31
  Peter: Right?
• 44:31
  Peter: They don't stop being scientists.
• 44:33
  Peter: But there are so many people who find happiness and stop doing what they were doing.
• 44:38
  Ryan: So that was not really a digression, I guess, because I do think that, as you mentioned, the subtext of this episode seemed to be a theme around.
• 44:47
  Ryan: Happiness.
• 44:48
  Ryan: And I had some questions about that and I appreciate the indulge in that discussion.
• 44:54
  Ryan: But to get back to the episode, she talked about this experience she had in meditation and the, the transition of integration of the two worldviews post this say awakening experience or this meditative experience she had where she would
• 45:16
  Ryan: have oscillations of doubt and skepticism that would, materialize from this historical materialist perspective.
• 45:24
  Ryan: So she was saying how she would interact with her colleagues and start to question whether she could actually trust her subjective experience that was.
• 45:32
  Ryan: Real in the experience, but then this intellectual materialist view starts to overcome and make you question and be a skeptic.
• 45:42
  Ryan: So she went through this period after of sort of this back and forth as she started to integrate these perspectives.
• 45:48
  Ryan: And then described how eventually the intellect finds a way to catch up and integrate the two perspectives over time.
• 45:56
  Ryan: And she spoke specifically of scientists, that when scientists experience this awakening,, they gain this interiority and inclination to continue to explore how.
• 46:08
  Ryan: That experience relates to the material world.
• 46:11
  Ryan: And this is something that we've discussed a number of times and I've raised specifically as, a theme that the most prominent people in this space, although I did find it interesting that she mentioned ca what's the philosopher's name?
• 46:26
  Ryan: The guy who card card up.
• 46:27
  Ryan: I wanna call him ketchup, but it's not Kastrup Kastrup.
• 46:30
  Ryan: Bernardo Kastrup.
• 46:31
  Ryan: Bernardo Kastrup, who we talked about and was involved in the last interview, with Faggin, and Penrose Penrose.
• 46:39
  Ryan: He is one of the few that we've experienced academics in this space that have not specifically experienced.
• 46:48
  Ryan: This metaphysical, awakening type thing.
• 46:52
  Ryan: And he basically says he's just following the evidence and analysis.
• 46:56
  Ryan: Analysis.
• 46:57
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 46:57
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 46:57
  Ryan: So the point being there is this theme that those most prominent in the space, and I think independent of their own, like they seem to be very, well regarded scientists in their space before this happens.
• 47:11
  Ryan: It's not like they're kooks or like fringe science.
• 47:14
  Ryan: So, so you're
• 47:14
  Peter: saying the most prominent in the idealism, right.
• 47:20
  Peter: Science space.
• 47:21
  Peter: Yes.
• 47:21
  Peter: Yes.
• 47:22
  Ryan: All seem to have this, have had an experience that then drove them To, I guess.
• 47:28
  Ryan: What we're about to talk about, which is it expands their perception to be able to encompass the potential of this consciousness first paradigm.
• 47:40
  Ryan: I found that interesting that this continues to be a theme.
• 47:43
  Ryan: so anyway, So she, went through some of the work that she did.
• 47:49
  Ryan: In this integration and talking about how the historical spiritual texts, much of the knowledge was gained through Revelation and we're finding the more we move science into this space, that there's alignment of what we're learning intellectually.
• 48:08
  Ryan: Versus the historical revelation.
• 48:12
  Peter: Yes.
• 48:14
  Peter: But I mean, it seems like there's a kind of revelation there as well.
• 48:18
  Peter: I mean, 'cause what revelation is, is awakening experience, right?
• 48:22
  Peter: And so we're talking about scientists who were going through awakened experience and then pursuing this,
• 48:26
  Ryan: but they're saying that the scientific evidence that we're coming to in more recent years
• 48:32
  Peter: is supporting,
• 48:33
  Ryan: is supporting that, right?
• 48:34
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 48:35
  Ryan: Yes.
• 48:35
  Ryan: and so then she went on to describe a metaphor for awareness and perception, discussing the conflict of the materialist position and the idealists position
• 48:47
  Peter: so I think I, so I think the question from the interviewer was how do you reconcile your experience with your training and profession?
• 48:59
  Peter: And her explanation was the optical illusion of the, the vase and two faces
• 49:06
  Ryan: mm-hmm.
• 49:06
  Peter: Or what I call the figure, field, perception, like how the figure appears on the field mm-hmm.
• 49:12
  Peter: Of a, of an illustration.
• 49:14
  Peter: so in her example, there's a black vase.
• 49:18
  Peter: On a white, square, square field.
• 49:20
  Peter: And when you look at the black object, you just see this black vase But if you look at the white space or the negative space and you see these two faces facing each other, then you don't see that
• 49:34
  Peter: it's a picture of a vase.
• 49:35
  Peter: You see it's a picture of two faces, and then your perception starts to shift back and forth between seeing the vase and seeing the faces.
• 49:43
  Ryan: So she was saying how, this was a description of the conflict or paradox between the materialist versus idealist, but that the initial metaphor seemed like she might focus on, you need to pay attention or focus on the white
• 49:57
  Ryan: space.
• 49:58
  Ryan: But what she really was advocating for was this expansion of perception to expand our awareness and perception to include the potential of both spaces.
• 50:08
  Ryan: And that by expanding the curiosity.
• 50:12
  Ryan: She spoke specifically about how her curiosity post materialism led her to find this evidence and it was a curiosity she said was absent when she was in the materialist
• 50:25
  Peter: mm-hmm.
• 50:25
  Ryan: Paradigm.
• 50:26
  Ryan: And that metaphor was illustrating how science has focused on, we'll say the black vase in the metaphor.
• 50:34
  Ryan: And so all it knows and can conceive of is anything that exists within that black vase.
• 50:41
  Ryan: And her comment was to expand our curiosity and our perception to allow for this alternate outcome.
• 50:51
  Ryan: I mean, it's pointing exactly to what we've been talking about previously where the institution of science and materialist scientists are so dogmatic about things having to land within that space that it prevents them from even conceiving of or
• 51:08
  Ryan: being open to the potential of, say, a consciousness first paradigm.
• 51:13
  Ryan: and so she did use this, metaphor, but then discussed how Expanded awareness and perception and openness and curiosity led her to pursue the work that she was doing before In a realm that supported what she seemed to understand
• 51:32
  Ryan: as this consciousness first paradigm.
• 51:34
  Peter: More curiosity about the nature of consciousness.
• 51:38
  Peter: she cites a lot of NDE studies, near death experience.
• 51:42
  Peter: and yes, cause her prior work academically was in, mobility and balance.
• 51:49
  Peter: and this is quite a shift.
• 51:50
  Peter: This has nothing to do with locomotion.
• 51:52
  Peter: This has to do with what Nature of nature of consciousness.
• 51:58
  Peter: well, I actually, I guess I don't really know what her current research is.
• 52:02
  Peter: She does present a few specific case studies.
• 52:06
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 52:07
  Peter: And she says that she did a paper.
• 52:09
  Peter: With, a doctor who experienced a near death experience so that it would be in the PubMed, Medline, whatever database so that when physicians, are curious about it, they find an actual published paper by a neurobiologist working with a
• 52:29
  Peter: physician.
• 52:30
  Peter: she's seeding the field.
• 52:32
  Peter: She's seeding the mainstream literature.
• 52:34
  Peter: with this, rigorously reported, metaphysical Experience.
• 52:39
  Ryan: yeah.
• 52:39
  Ryan: She did talk about that work, and I think we will bypass some of that because we want to tie this episode off with the revelation around happiness
• 52:49
  Peter: I was inspired by your question initially about happiness and then her, use of this vase illusion metaphor for her perception.
• 53:06
  Peter: to me, the metaphor is pointing at stuff that she's not saying.
• 53:09
  Peter: that's what I was taking away.
• 53:10
  Peter: at the beginning she was explicitly saying, this is how not to be happy.
• 53:15
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 53:15
  Peter: Be successful.
• 53:17
  Peter: I was a terrific graduate student.
• 53:19
  Peter: I became a professor.
• 53:21
  Peter: I published, I was very successful in my field, and it did not make me happy.
• 53:26
  Peter: So being successful is not how to be happy.
• 53:29
  Peter: And then what she says at the end is, here's an illustration of kind of reconciling these views.
• 53:37
  Peter: And she's happy.
• 53:38
  Peter: And so that's where I was making the jump.
• 53:41
  Peter: Oh, she's telling us how to be happy here.
• 53:43
  Peter: And I'm tying that to my interpretation of happiness per or earlier conversation, which is, the conventional perspective is, let's call this painting, let's call this a painting of a black vase on a white canvas.
• 53:58
  Peter: So there's black paint and there's white paint on this canvas.
• 54:03
  Peter: And the conventional view is to look at this canvas and say, I see this black figure.
• 54:09
  Peter: That's what exists.
• 54:11
  Peter: And essentially saying if it's black paint, it exists.
• 54:14
  Peter: And if it's white paint, it doesn't exist.
• 54:16
  Peter: There's another perspective, which we've talked about many times, which is a kind of non-dualism, which is all about emptiness and neglecting the heart aspect of awakening.
• 54:29
  Peter: And that perspective is, analogous to saying, oh, you're wrong.
• 54:34
  Peter: The black is an illusion.
• 54:37
  Peter: The white exists and only the white is real.
• 54:40
  Peter: which is also false.
• 54:41
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 54:41
  Peter: Um, in the metaphor.
• 54:43
  Peter: And I think in reality because although the material world.
• 54:48
  Peter: Is in a sense, an illusion created by consciousness.
• 54:53
  Peter: It has a reality in our experience, and therefore, to deny it is to deny this black figure, which exists in our field of view.
• 55:04
  Peter: It exists in our experience, and it's not appropriate to deny that the experience exists or deny that the experience is important merely because it is not in pure consciousness.
• 55:18
  Ryan: Right
• 55:18
  Peter: and that what she's pointing to and what I was describing as my experience of happiness, was the integration of the two, That you can clearly see the white space and you can clearly see the black space and you're
• 55:34
  Peter: not.
• 55:35
  Peter: promoting one over the other.
• 55:37
  Peter: You're not saying one is real and the other is unreal, or one is true and the other is false.
• 55:43
  Peter: by embracing the reality of both, and you could say the absolute reality of consciousness and the experiential reality or apparent reality or subjective reality, by both of them, then you actually experience the happiness that, if you focus only
• 56:03
  Peter: on the material, you potentially experience a shallow, unsatisfactory, un lasting happiness.
• 56:10
  Peter: And if you focus only on the emptiness, you experience peace, but you don't experience happiness.
• 56:17
  Peter: so that's what it was saying to me and the way I received it was, oh, she's giving us a coded message here.
• 56:25
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 56:25
  Peter: You know, she's like, I'm not gonna explicitly tell you how to be happy, but this is how I achieved happiness.
• 56:32
  Peter: 'cause I think she's fairly clear that she was unhappy before and she is no longer unhappy
• 56:39
  Ryan: right
• 56:39
  Peter: now to your point.
• 56:40
  Peter: Oh, does that mean that she's happy?
• 56:43
  Peter: But I think it's implicit that she is happy where she is.
• 56:47
  Peter: and so, and, and I think that she's further pointing to the field of study and to the experience of, awakening scientists who are breaking open this, this, field of i the idealists, paradigm.
• 57:03
  Peter: Right.
• 57:04
  Peter: That this is leading humanity into happiness
• 57:09
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 57:09
  Ryan: part of her unhappiness was this extrinsic view of her personal value as
• 57:18
  Peter: mm-hmm.
• 57:18
  Ryan: Being productive and participatory in the machine, so to speak.
• 57:24
  Ryan: And that the shift in her attitude to understanding.
• 57:29
  Ryan: Her intrinsic value, our intrinsic value
• 57:32
  Peter: mm-hmm.
• 57:32
  Ryan: was a turning point in this.
• 57:34
  Ryan: And she, pointed to some research that When people shift out of the materialistic paradigm, the shift in, their relation to other beings.
• 57:47
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 57:47
  Ryan: Animal plant.
• 57:48
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 57:49
  Ryan: The earth.
• 57:50
  Ryan: Each other changes to a more altruistic and, Say a loving community and she points to the necessity of moving away from materialism and being open to this consciousness first paradigm for this reason.
• 58:07
  Ryan: Right.
• 58:07
  Peter: Yes.
• 58:07
  Peter: But I think what's interesting to me is the moving away from materialism is not a moving into a cave.
• 58:16
  Ryan: Correct.
• 58:17
  Peter: Right.
• 58:17
  Peter: It's not a withdrawal.
• 58:18
  Ryan: Yes.
• 58:19
  Peter: It's a moving away from the, tunnel of vision on material world.
• 58:24
  Peter: Because what strikes me is that the whole story of these awakening scientists is that they pursue their work, They don't abandon their work because they realize that, space time is empty.
• 58:39
  Peter: I think they find themselves with the tools to continue to pursue the understanding of reality, with this expanded perspective and this, this un blinkered, unblinded, perspective.
• 58:56
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 58:56
  Peter: And now they're expanding their work, and trying to get the establishment to expand.
• 59:05
  Peter: Into, this new space and this new paradigm.
• 59:08
  Ryan: Yeah, I mean,, what she was saying was, when their mind was opened, the evidence was evident Like the evidence is there, but were blinded and when we unveil, we're seeing what was always there.
• 59:24
  Ryan: And I think that's what these scientists are finding is, yes, they pursue because this is what they do and they're using the tools and the abilities that they've built.
• 59:36
  Ryan: But they're finding the evidence, like the evidence is there.
• 59:40
  Peter: and that's to your point.
• 59:41
  Peter: That's exactly what, so what her current work is, is publishing these phenomenon which are observable,
• 59:50
  Ryan: right.
• 59:50
  Peter: and researchable, but have previously been outside of the realm of accepted science.
• 59:59
  Ryan: Right.
• 59:59
  Peter: and she's bringing her credibility as a neurobiologist to, near death experience.
• 1:00:07
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  Peter: There's some remarkable examples.
• 1:00:09
  Peter: There's a couple of very remarkable examples, in the video, which we haven't touched on, but please,
• 1:00:14
  Ryan: yes,
• 1:00:14
  Peter: go and check them out 'cause it's quite remarkable.
• 1:00:17
  Ryan: Ultimately the understanding of true nature and the intrinsic value within existence leads to doing what fulfills, but having fun with it as opposed to this compulsion for productivity and she spoke about.
• 1:00:36
  Ryan: Unfolding reality with others.
• 1:00:39
  Ryan: So that when consciousness, and we didn't go into the mechanism, she was discussing earlier in the video about separating consciousness and the perception of separation within individuated bodies, but there was some discussion about that.
• 1:00:55
  Ryan: But the point was, that consciousness is ever expanding, and that reminded me of the.
• 1:01:00
  Ryan: fundamental process and this continuing evolvement into stronger and deeper complexity that sort of resonated as, akin to that concept.
• 1:01:12
  Ryan: But that, our interaction with the material world is part of that creative process.
• 1:01:18
  Ryan: And what we're doing here is unfolding and expanding consciousness, unfolding reality with others.
• 1:01:26
  Ryan: And she likened that sort of to a game, pointing to meaning and fulfillment and happiness comes from the joyful exploration of this expanding consciousness.
• 1:01:37
  Peter: Mm.
• 1:01:38
  Ryan: Not the compulsion to be recognized and be the best and
• 1:01:42
  Peter: material success,
• 1:01:43
  Ryan: material success and such.
• 1:01:45
  Ryan: Okay.
• 1:01:45
  Ryan: Well.
• 1:01:46
  Ryan: Thank you for the happiness and the happiness discussion.
• 1:01:49
  Ryan: This was an interesting video.
• 1:01:50
  Ryan: I enjoyed it very much and I recommend that you all, go and listen to it, especially for the pieces that we didn't cover.
• 1:01:56
  Ryan: because as Peter mentioned, there's some quite compelling evidence.
• 1:02:00
  Ryan: And it ties in a lot of what we've been talking about over the past few episodes.
• 1:02:05
  Ryan: so we recommend it and I recommend that you, follow Essentia Foundation.
• 1:02:09
  Ryan: We've, leveraged a few of their videos here recently and we appreciate their work, so go support them as well.
• 1:02:14
  Ryan: So drop us a comment, and we'll talk to you guys next time.
• 1:02:18
  Ryan: Bye
• 1:02:19
  Peter: bye now.
• 1:02:21
  Peter: Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 1:02:24
  Peter: Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 1:02:27
  Peter: Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and visit www.eth-studio.com for more information and content.