Latest / V / The Future of MAGA: Natalie Winters + Evita (Ep. 119)

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The Future of MAGA: Natalie Winters + Evita (Ep. 119) · V

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Bongino Report Early Edition. Today we have a
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: special episode because I am joined by co-host of the
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon War Room, Natalie Winters. Natalie, thank you so
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: much for being here.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Hi, thank you so much for having me. It's an
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: honor to be on for I think the first time
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: ever with you hosting. I know you've been on the
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  Speaker 2: War Room before when I posted and when Steve's hosted.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much. I am honored to be here.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I am always shocked by the amount of people that
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  Speaker 1: watch The War Room. Like I was telling, when I
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: first went on with Steve, the only time that I
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: had ever gotten as many followers as I did after
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: going on The War Room with Steve was when I
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  Speaker 1: did Tucker Carlson back in 2020. Like you guys have
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  Speaker 1: just like a massive, massive audience that I think goes
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  Speaker 1: pretty under the radar.
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  Speaker 3: People don't even really know.
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  Speaker 2: No, we are so blessed, I say, in two kind
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  Speaker 2: of silos, both in terms of quality and quantity, right?
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  Speaker 2: Our guests are rather our audience and our guests too.
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  Speaker 2: are so engaged, right? They are the activist types. They
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  Speaker 2: are the grassroots type. They are burning down the phone lines.
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  Speaker 2: They're sending the emails, sending the texts. They do more
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  Speaker 2: than I do. I'm so blessed to even have the
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  Speaker 2: opportunity to speak to them, but they're also growing. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: every day, I think it's reflected, right, in obviously Trump's
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  Speaker 2: overwhelming victory, but it's not just people who are, I think,
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  Speaker 2: politically engaged. I think that's sort of the brilliance of
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Steve and what I call Bannonism, right? It brings in
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: people who from all walks of life, whether it's because
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: they're really passionate about ending the forever wars or just
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: their lived experience as an American worker who's been overlooked
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: in favor of, you know, an H-1B or an H-2B
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  Speaker 2: visa recipient. It really, I think, speaks to that. And
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: of course, I guess we got to credit a little
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: bit all the fact checkers, the, you know, cliche Streisand effect.
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  Speaker 2: I think we're probably one of the most censored shows
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  Speaker 2: out there. So somehow, paradoxically, in this wonderful country that
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  Speaker 2: we live in, I guess that lends you to a
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  Speaker 2: lot more eyeballs on your show. And of course, with
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  Speaker 2: the The brilliance of Steve at the helm, you're always
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  Speaker 2: going to get a good product.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't surprise me at all.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, Steve Bannon is, I think, in my opinion,
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  Speaker 1: the premier thought leader of the populist right. He is
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  Speaker 1: somebody who I've looked up to, who I listen to.
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  Speaker 1: And even when you're hosting as well, Natalie, you guys
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  Speaker 1: are both amazing thought leaders.
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  Speaker 3: So all of you listening … Check out the war room.
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  Speaker 3: But I don't know if a.
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  Speaker 1: Lot of people know that you and I both went
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  Speaker 1: to the University of Chicago. So I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: you remember this, Natalie, but we did briefly, briefly meet
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: before a CR's meeting.
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  Speaker 3: It was like the fall. It was like late 2019,
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  Speaker 3: early 2020, before lockdowns.
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  Speaker 1: I never went back to a meeting, but I remember
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  Speaker 1: briefly seeing you at this college Republicans meeting at the
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  Speaker 1: University of Chicago. I think before you were writing for
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  Speaker 1: the national polls, before I had ever had a published
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  Speaker 1: article ever, I was not in journalism.
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  Speaker 3: I was just a regular student and we met. I know.
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  Speaker 2: It's been so fun to watch our careers sort of
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  Speaker 2: go on parallel tracks. It's been really wonderful. And of course,
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  Speaker 2: we have Darren Beattie, who is a fellow UChicago grad.
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  Speaker 2: I remember, too, I always say I don't have that
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  Speaker 2: many regrets in life. I think we've both been very blessed,
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  Speaker 2: including you with your wonderful husband, producer. I love that.
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  Speaker 2: It's not every day you get to do a show
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  Speaker 2: where the producer is your wonderful husband. But I have,
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  Speaker 2: I would say, two regrets from college. And one is
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  Speaker 2: that we didn't get the chance to hang out more
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  Speaker 2: and spend more time together because I was always kind
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  Speaker 2: of living in D.C. I don't think many people know this,
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  Speaker 2: but I didn't even really have a place on campus.
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  Speaker 2: I never really lived in Chicago. Everyone always asks me
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  Speaker 2: for recommendations and I don't ever have any recommendations to
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  Speaker 2: give because I never spent any time there. I had
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  Speaker 2: a place in D.C. and I was living there working
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: for Rahim and Steve that and I took a class
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: from John Mearsheimer and it was during COVID. So you
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: could imagine while I was doing war room stuff, I
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: didn't really have the time to like, you know, really
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  Speaker 2: tune into all my classes. So I didn't really get
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: to get any of his lectures. But I think he's
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  Speaker 2: a brilliant professor, especially a lot of his remarks on
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: everything that's happened in Ukraine have, I think, aged very,
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  Speaker 2: very well. But I'm so glad that we're doing this now.
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  Speaker 2: And like I said, you've obviously been on war room,
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  Speaker 2: and I feel like we've done human events together. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: those UChicago College Republican meetings, I think were sort of
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: an interesting microcosm from my perspective, because having come from California,
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  Speaker 2: I think you get a certain set like strand of
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: conservatism there. I mean, there's the Stephen Millers of the
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  Speaker 2: world right there from Santa Monica. Breitbart is headquartered in Brentwood.
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  Speaker 2: So I think it's a very immigration conscious, immigration focused
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  Speaker 2: stripe of conservatism, just because that's your sort of. lived experience.
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  Speaker 2: But then going to UChicago, I sort of felt like
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  Speaker 2: the older guard Republican Party was more represented in what
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  Speaker 2: a lot of the young kids were talking about there.
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  Speaker 2: I remember people were like, I think America should be
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  Speaker 2: the world's policeman. And I was like, oh, no, I
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  Speaker 2: don't agree with that. But it was a very, I think,
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  Speaker 2: foundational sort of formative experience because I realized it was
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  Speaker 2: the first time that I got to sort of spend
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  Speaker 2: time with more traditional conservatives, more traditional Republicans. But frankly,
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  Speaker 2: it only solidified my resolve to want to be, you know,
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  Speaker 2: more in the Bannon corner of the universe. Of course,
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  Speaker 2: you guys started the Chicago Thinker, which did wonderful, wonderful work.
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  Speaker 2: I remember all the viral stuff. Twitter clips. I certainly
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  Speaker 2: had some FOMO from those days, but it is very
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  Speaker 2: cool to have watched our paths cross. And I guess
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  Speaker 2: today they're finally intersecting on your show, which is just wonderful.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and I think it's an interesting point about the
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  Speaker 1: types of students that you encounter at UChicago. I experienced
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  Speaker 1: the same thing, right? Because I think you're a year
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  Speaker 1: younger than me, right? Are you class of 2023?
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  Speaker 2: I was class of 2023, but I graduated a year early.
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  Speaker 2: So I think we probably graduated together.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So 2022.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Got it.
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  Speaker 1: So So but I was on campus a year before you,
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  Speaker 1: I think. And I it was I was experiencing all
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  Speaker 1: of the types of right wingers that you just articulated,
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  Speaker 1: but I didn't know why I didn't agree with them yet.
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  Speaker 1: Like you, I think, were much more realized in your
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  Speaker 1: worldview than I was at that point. And I just
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  Speaker 1: knew that it wasn't right. You know, I was I
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  Speaker 1: was just like, this is not strong enough. If we're
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  Speaker 1: going to be a voice on campus, if we're going
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  Speaker 1: to platform people that are saying things actually contradictory to
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  Speaker 1: the mind virus that is literally eroding you, Chicago, from within,
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  Speaker 1: we need something stronger. We need something different.
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  Speaker 3: And so then.
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  Speaker 1: I co-founded The Thinker with a few other kids at UChicago,
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  Speaker 1: and we did it during COVID. And part of why
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  Speaker 1: our paths didn't cross for you guys listening is most
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  Speaker 1: of us were remote. I mean, I didn't live on
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  Speaker 1: campus either for a large part of my college career
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  Speaker 1: because we were not allowed to have in-person classes. So
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  Speaker 1: most of us said, well, I'll just save money. I'll
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  Speaker 1: go live at home, which made sense. And so The
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  Speaker 1: Chicago Thinker really cultivated a group of people who are–
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  Speaker 1: disassociating from these sort of good conservatives, the palatable conservatives
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  Speaker 1: to the.
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  Speaker 3: Chicago, I guess, Ivy League elites.
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  Speaker 1: And it pushed me to the populist right in a
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  Speaker 1: way that I didn't even know. It happened so seamless.
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  Speaker 1: It happened very naturally and unconsciously. And so I wouldn't
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  Speaker 1: have it any other way. And I really gravitated toward
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  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon and the work that you've done and others
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  Speaker 1: on the right and away from the establishment and having
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  Speaker 1: that experience of college Republicans and then realizing, no, we
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  Speaker 1: need something more. We can't just be about conserving something.
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  Speaker 1: That's what conservatism has been for a really long time.
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  Speaker 1: We have to actually stand up for something and put
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  Speaker 1: forward a worldview of in this country that is real
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  Speaker 1: and concrete and not just about slowly trying to slow
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  Speaker 1: down whatever the left is doing. So I think that
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  Speaker 1: although we didn't see each other a lot, we came
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  Speaker 1: to very similar conclusions at UChicago. And you have a
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  Speaker 1: really interesting story that you've sort of briefly talked about
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  Speaker 1: on Twitter, Natalie, but I want you to tell me
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  Speaker 1: about your time at a sorority. I don't remember which
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  Speaker 1: one you were in, but you had a pretty traumatizing
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  Speaker 1: experience when you were part of it.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Well, you have to understand, you seem like you
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  Speaker 2: were raised in the most wonderful conservative values family, just like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, middle America, beautiful town. I was born and
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: raised in Santa Monica, right? In Los Angeles. I went
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  Speaker 2: to Harvard Westlake. All my classmates were, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: children and grandchildren of either Democratic senators or Hollywood elites.
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  Speaker 2: So it really was just a cesspool of honestly some
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: of the most depraved people on this planet, the people
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  Speaker 2: whose parents I now rail against when I'm hosting War Room.
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  Speaker 2: But I was in 10th grade in 2016. So I
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: had already started getting kind of the brunt of like, oh,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: you support Trump or you're even Trump curious, right? However
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: you want to classify it. I had teachers threatening to
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: beat me up. It was totally insane. And I had
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: made a comment saying like, you know, I'm not a feminist.
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  Speaker 2: And they literally called, I'm not kidding, an emergency meeting
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  Speaker 2: for all the quote unquote affinity groups. So the like
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: feminist groups, the like gay group, the Hispanic group, sorry,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Latinx group, like the black group, because apparently what I
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: said was so, you know, sacrilegious. So they had to
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: have an emergency safe space. meeting. But I think the
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: brilliance of that and why I'm so, so grateful for
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  Speaker 2: the upbringing that I had was that I really got
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  Speaker 2: to understand, for lack of a better word, I know
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: we're not allowed to say it these days, but the enemy, right,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: the enemy within. And that was something that I think
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  Speaker 2: really led to my political maturation, right? And that I
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: sort of got the threat that we were facing because
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I had lived it. And then the year that I
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: was applying to college was when that Operation Varsity Blues
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: college admissions scandal broke. So basically all these kids who
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: for years had been haranguing me and saying that, oh, well,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: you're a racist, you're a sexist, you know, square that logic.
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  Speaker 2: You know, you're just a bad person because you're a Republican.
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  Speaker 2: They had been secretly paying millions of dollars, to get
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: their underperforming children into these sort of very credentialed institutions.
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  Speaker 2: So I just sort of saw in that moment, first
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: of all, just the immorality, and you can have a
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: debate on whether or not rich families can pay to
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: get their kids into school, but just sort of holding
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: that in the same sentence that the idea that I
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: was an evil person because I thought we should have
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: secure borders, that I thought affirmative action wasn't a good policy,
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  Speaker 2: it was a very crystallizing moment. in my political formation.
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  Speaker 2: So then flash forward to UChicago, right, it was sort
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: of seeing that play out just on a much larger stage.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, you introduce the international elements. You know,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I had some interesting interactions, I think, frankly, with Chinese students,
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  Speaker 2: who I think were probably in some capacity involved with
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the Chinese Students and Scholars Association, which is more of
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: the like espionage arm, the Confucius Institute is more the,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: you know, propaganda, soft culture, warfare stuff. But And in
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: an attempt, because the summer before I matriculated into UChicago,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I had started interning for Rahim. And I always joke
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: that it was like I was returning to civilian life
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: when I actually started UChicago. I was out of politics,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: but I was still working for him, but I was
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: living on campus. And, you know, while I was there,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to try to have a
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: social life. I'm going to try to be normal. So
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I'm going to rush. I'm going to join Delta Gamma.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I was like a fourth generation legacy type. So I
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, that should be easy enough. I
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: later found out that my actual first choice of a sorority,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: a girl from my high school had told all the
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: leadership there, don't accept her because like she's going to
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: cause waves. She's going to start problems. And I was like, well,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: that's clairvoyant, I guess. But I was a member. So
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I rushed whenever I get in. And I was in
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: it for probably like two or three days. Probably thought
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I was going to say months or weeks, but days.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: It was like 48 hours. And I get a bizarre email.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: And it was from our national representative, the chapter president,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: and the like, you know, not HR liaison, but like
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: just sort of, you know, member dues person. And they're like, hey,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: we received a complaint that you were transphobic. And I'm like,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: you know, call me like anti-CCP. Maybe some of my
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Twitter humor is like a little edgy, but like, I
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: don't really doubt, I didn't really dabble that much in
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: the culture and stuff. So I was like, where are
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: they getting this from? So I read the report and
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: they had found a tweet. This was, I guess, 2020
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: or sorry, 2019. It was during the Democratic primary. CNN
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: was doing a town hall and some crazy deranged lunatic
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: was asking, I guess it probably would have been like
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Anderson Cooper or something, a question. And the person like
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: melts down. They're like, they're glitching out. And I had
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: quote tweeted it with the clown emoji. And apparently the
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: person was trans. So that was my big sin, my
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: original sin as a DG member. And they're like, you're transphobic.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So I had to go. It was in a secret
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: soundproof room in the UChicago library, the main one, like
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: the middle of campus. I don't even know what it's
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: called because I spent so few minutes like there, but
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I walk in and it's me, the national representative of DG,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: the chapter president, like two or three other people, like
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: the whole, I didn't even know their names, right? I
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: had just joined. And they basically, they all come after me.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: They're like, you know, we just don't think that you
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: should continue down this path. We think that there's an issue.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: They didn't want me going into conservative media. And I
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: just kind of took a step back. And for those
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: of you who watched forum and you've seen my rants,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: you can probably, I guess it was my first rant.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: You can imagine, um, what I said, um, telling them,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is absolutely ridiculous that you're prioritizing
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: a hypothetical trans member of your sorority. That was what
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: they were scared that I would not be a good
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: quote sister or to a transgender person. I was like,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: this is literally so asinine. I can't even laugh. I
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: can't even say this without laughing. But that they couldn't
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: in good faith say that they wanted me to continue
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: being a member because they were scared that I could
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: have potentially offended a transgender sister of Delta Gamma. So
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I was already sort of out of it because I
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: wanted to move back to D.C.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Anyways.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: So I told them that that was just absolutely ridiculous,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: that I was such an affront to, I think, UChicago's
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: purported defense um, of free speech. And I told them
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: that I would be resigning. I didn't want to be
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a part of, uh, an entity that like didn't support
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the values that I did not saying they had to
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: proselytize conservative values, but they should at least defend my right, uh,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: to say what I, what I wanted. And, um, and
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, you know what? I think you, you
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: will get this joke out of anyone. Uh, it's not
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: even like the frat parties were that great. Honestly, the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: guys were not cute and the sororities were pretty weird anyways.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: So I was like, eh, it's not a match. How
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: about this? I'll go and start working for Steve Bannon
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: and become the co-host of his show.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So, well, listen, I think that was the, that was
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: the better, that was a better call. And, and I
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: will say, I mean, it, well, I do remember that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: there was a push to like get a transgender to
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: join one of the sororities at this time.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: There wasn't one.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: That it was a hypothetical transgender that they were referring to.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Cause there were no transgender as part of any new
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Chicago sororities. So I had a really similar experience. So I,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: tried to join Theta. I don't remember the full name
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: of that sorority.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Alpha Theta, I think. Yes.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So I tried to join because my roommate was part of,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: was part of Theta. And so I, I had missed Rush,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: but they, after Rush, obviously they have more spots because
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: some girl's we'll take a different spot or they'll drop completely.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: So there are some openings and they had some openings
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and I decided to like do the second rush, which
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: is just like where they sort of pick like four
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: girls for the four spots. And, um, I was told
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: that my application was put aside because somebody said that I,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: at the time I had had like a, a really
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: dumb role in, uh, in, in college Republicans. I was
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: like their, their treasurer, like their treasurer or something. It
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: was really silly. And they said that, oh, well, I
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: don't align with their values because I said that I
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: was a part of CRs at the time.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: And so then I wasn't allowed in. And I was
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: fine with that.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: And I do feel like I found my own community
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: at UChicago around the Chicago thinker. And you kind of
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: have to do that, I think, at a liberal college campus.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: It's gotten so hostile, especially among women. And I think
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that that's something that's maybe not talked about a lot
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: is you'll notice that young men are trending very right
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: wing and they will talk to you in person about their,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: their beliefs. Women are very militantly left wing to the
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: point where they will like burn bridges and destroy friendships
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: because of their political beliefs. And it's, it's kind of
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: out of control. It's, it's, it's something that I, I
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: experienced too, Natalie. And so I don't know, like, did you,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: how did you find a community and, and survive there
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: being remote and then being kicked out of the sorority and,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: but still wanting to have a college experience?
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something, I don't know what the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: right word, but it's almost entrepreneurial in the sense like
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: you have to create your own thing, right? You did
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: it with the Chicago Thinker. You have to sort of
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: chart your own path. And I think for all the like,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you know, woo-woo self-love talk that like that side is
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: really into the idea that you don't need external validation.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I sort of took that, maybe it was my, you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: hippie California upbringing, but I was like, you know, I
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: don't need to be affirmed by people who at the
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: end of the day don't have any original thoughts. They're
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: just being programmed. to think a certain way. And I
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: think it sort of went back, like I was talking
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: about my time in high school, having gone, um, you know,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: to a school where I was surrounded and with my
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: upbringing by people who did represent sort of that Hollywood
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: strain or strand of the permanent political class of the elite, whatever,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: however you want to classify it. I knew deep down
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: how truly evil these people were and just out for themselves.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And I think just the disdain and the scorn and
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: contempt that they have for America's working class is just
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the superiority complex that they have. And so I was like, yeah,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: maybe in their mind, they think they're right. But their
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: set of values is not something that I share. So
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: it just never really bothered me. And maybe I'm just,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: you know, rebellious, or I guess maybe ambivalent to what
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: people think about me, which is probably its own problem
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: in and of itself. But I think you picked up
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: on something very interesting. I think everyone loves to look
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: at those two data points that you were talking about,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: how Men are trending more right and women are trending
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: more left. And they say, oh, look, men and women,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: they're not going to be able to get along. There's
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: a lack of harmony. It's bad for relationships. It's bad
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: for birth rates. But I think even confined within those genders,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: it's very interesting. female friendships. That's something, honestly, that I
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: had never even thought about. But I'm friends with very
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: few people from high school. You could imagine what I
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: do is a bit of a shock and awe to
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: most of those types. But there really is, I think
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: it's cultish. I mean, I think that's the best way
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: to describe it. I know, of course, the left deals
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: in projections. So when they accuse MAGA of being a cult,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I would argue that they're really just talking about themselves.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: But I also think it's just my take on the
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: whole college thing, too. I think part of it is
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: obviously indoctrination and they're filling the classrooms with, you know,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: certain texts and certain spin on the world. I'm sure
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: you and I could probably do eight hours of podcasting
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: back and forth about some of the most ridiculous experiences
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and teachers that we had. But I think more importantly
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: is that it's just a lack of critical thinking, right?
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: It's they're not teaching you to come to the conclusion
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: by yourself or even offering an alternative point of view.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And I think that people are so seldom exposed then
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: to a conservative, to a Republican. That was certainly my
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: experience in high school. that you sort of get typecast
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: as this radical right-winger. They're like, oh, well, if she's
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: a treasurer loosely affiliated with the Republican Club, then she
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: must be crazy.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: So they don't know how to like deal with it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And then I'm sure you and even your viewers probably
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: feel the same way. Then when you find yourself right
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: in a scenario where you're one of the few token Republicans,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: people treat you like a zoo animal.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: You're like an elephant in a cage and they ask
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: you all these questions and you have to. But I
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: guess it's like Darwinian in terms of argumentation, because that's
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: why I think college campus conservatives are like the hardest
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: people to debate, right? Because they're so well-versed, they're so well-educated,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: because every day you're basically, you know, being threatened your
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: whole existence because no one wants to ever throw you
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: a bone, right? They can just be like, well, I
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: think this is true because I feel this way, but
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you have to cite this study and that study and
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: have read all the books and do all that. But
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I truly wouldn't have it any other way. And I
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: think you probably feel the same way. It's, it's, I
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: think a wonderful thing to be able to look back
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: on and whether it was, you know, during COVID times
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: or just, you know, more generally, uh, that, you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you and I, and I'm sure most of your viewers,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: like we, we got it and we think for ourselves.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And I think that that is something that is so cool.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And I don't care all the mainstream culture, all the
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: degenerate things that they push. I think there's nothing cooler
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: than actually being for lack of a better word, a
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: free thinker Yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: And Natalie, I think there's so much stigma around being
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: a brave person on a college campus.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, because you're young, right? You go there, you're
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: 18 years old. You want to fit in. You want
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: to make friends.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: You don't want to stigmatize yourself immediately when you get there.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And that's what I did when I first got to campus.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I joined CRs, which was like the most edgy thing
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I did. which I would say is like controlled opposition
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: on a mini scale on a college campus.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: And then I got canceled. And a lot of my.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Viewers know about this, but I was part of this
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: IOP initiative, which is UChicago's Institute of Politics. It was
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: at the time run by David Axelrod, who was, of course,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Obama's former chief advisor. And I basically made an anti-socialism
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: statement for the IOP initiative. I got mega canceled. It
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: was people saying that I don't deserve to be on campus.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I don't deserve to vote.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: There were tons of memes about me. I got eventually
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a death threat, and I had to get law enforcement involved.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: It was really overwhelming, and I broke down in tears
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: because I had never had an experience like that before.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: You had it in high school. I had it as
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a sophomore in college, and it was shocking. And my response,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: instead of to like cower in fear, was to write
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: an op-ed about it, the first op-ed I'd ever written.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: To then co-found the Chicago Thinker.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And what I found was that bravery has really been
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: rewarding for me in my life. And so despite those
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: problems and all of the obstacles that I had and
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: the friends that I lost, it was ultimately worth it.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Not only that, I would never not have gone to UChicago.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I felt like I learned so much being in the trenches.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's what you just articulated, Natalie. There were
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: kids who tried to join the Chicago Thinker, our little publication,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: who then would back out because they'd say, oh, I
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: don't want this to affect my resume. I don't want
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: this to you know, show up, uh, on the internet
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: when an employer is searching for me. So I have to,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I have to back away. And I always felt bad
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: for those people because your, their fear is really controlling them.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: And like I said, boldness and bravery and honesty does
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: ultimately get rewarded in life in the long run. And
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's what you've done, Natalie. And I think
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: it's an, it's a, an amazing Testament, um, for a
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: lot of young people who are going into college and
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: who are going to face these, these very similar situations.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Something that you said recently, I want to move away
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: from college because I could talk about it forever with you.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: But something that you said recently that I was, it
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: almost made me take a step back.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: I was like, again, this is Natalie being brave.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: You were talking, it's true. I'm going to make you,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you about it. You were talking about,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: of course, our mass immigration issue. And it was a
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Daily Wire interview that you did where you actually said,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: suggested that we need to mass denaturalize people.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: Tell me about what that means and why.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: The construct of citizenship over the last decade or two
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: really has become so watered down and devalued that it's
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: so hard to sort of parse out what exactly is
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: an American citizen. And I don't even mean that from
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the ideological perspective, right? That should be someone that, you know, sorry, libertarians,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: but that the government works to help protect your workers,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: whether it's tariffs or just, you know, not allowing the
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: mass importation of cheap foreign work. But in sort of,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I think this H1B debate, I think really opened the
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: floodgates on that discussion. And I think the interview that
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: you were talking about was even before that, but there
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: are so many carve out categories, whether it's the F1s,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: the H4s, the H1Bs, the H2Bs, where people who are
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: not citizens are are essentially getting citizenship rights, if not
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: by the fact that they are working actively right now,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: even the Biden regime, to make it easier for those
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: to basically just sort of be the thing that gets
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: the ball rolling for people to become citizens. In other words,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: the American people never voted, right, to mass basically import
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: the third world. And that's what it is. When you
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: look at who is coming into this country, it used
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: to be more or less the best and brightest in
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: smaller quantities. and there were on periods and off periods,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: and you were allowed to assimilate people. And even if
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: you want to have the debate about assimilation, at least
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: back then, I think these superstructures and the society that
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: people were entering, it was not purely just to make
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: them and indoctrinate them to hate America, right? You and
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I just had a 20 minute conversation about how even
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: if you were to put foreign students or foreigners in
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: American universities, they're not going to come out loving America.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: They're probably going to come out hating America even more
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: than they've been taught to. And they're, you know, State-sanctioned
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: schools in China and Iran, which truly is insane. They'll
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: just be able to critique America and more social justice verbiage, right?
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: More woke will be in their vocabulary. So I think
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: so many people who have then, off of those sort of,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I think, scams and fraudulent pathways to citizenship, received those
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: citizenship benefits. They never received them because the American people
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: voted them in. They got them because of the way
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the laws have been set up, whether it's chain migration
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: or whatnot, or just the fact that if you stay
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: on the H-1B visa for a long enough time, you
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: can sort of roll it into getting your green card,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: becoming a citizen. They got that because big business and
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: lobbyists and special interests wanted them to have it. And
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: this is a country, this is not a special economic
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: zone whereby people who are lobbying for bigger profit margins
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: for whatever the company may be should be entitled to
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: make decisions about what constitutes being an American. So I
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: think if you sort of approach it from that mindset,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that there are a lot of people who have citizenship
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: privileges right now who should not, I think that's really
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: what I'm talking about. And I think that the immigration
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: conversation has sort of strayed so far away, right? The
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: H-1B issue is a drop in the bucket. And they
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: love to always say, oh, well, we need to import
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the best and brightest. If you, I encourage, if your
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: audience is interested in this issue, there's a wonderful book
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: by John Miano and Michelle Malkin called Sold Out. And
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: it goes through chapter and verse sort of.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I read it. It's great.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: It's a wonderful book. And in the same way that
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: this audience, they've tried to pull a fast one on
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: us about the efficacy of, you know, COVID vaccines or
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: elections or the Ukraine war. Right. All the lies that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: they have told us this myth that we need to
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: keep importing. Frankly, the third world unqualified people, when you
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: look at the way they amortize it, you're talking about people.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Only 6%, I think, of all the H-1B people are
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: in the top 1% upper echelon of skills. The overwhelming
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: majority are the bottom rung. The over half, I think
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: it's like 83%, are making less than the average wage
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: of American tech workers. And half of Americans who get
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: STEM degrees will never actually work in STEM. So there's
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: no shortage. And the people that we're importing are not
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: the best and brightest. So I think that this kind
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: of immigration debate is It has been, I think, so tainted,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: sort of what you were talking about, by the emotion,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: you know, the, you know, female of, oh, people just
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: want a better life.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: But they've weaponized that against the American people to make
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: us think that the rational position is, well, we should
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: be importing the best and brightest. Well, we can import
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: a few geniuses every now and then, but that's not
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: what the policy is. And they're working overtime to make
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: it even worse for the American citizens. So I think
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: my comments on that front just come from the idea
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that citizenship should be something that is handed out to
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: people who enrich this country. And I think that that bar,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: that threshold, is so extremely high that I think the
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: majority of people who've received it as of late, especially
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: under the Biden regime, are not deserving of it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: And we're being told that all of the people who
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: we need to bring in who are apparently so much
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: more able and high IQ than regular Americans are from
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: the third world. And it just so happens that those
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: people are very cheap in labor. And it's not a coincidence.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: And you see people pushing for this that we, you know,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: maybe a few weeks ago, right before Christmas, you were like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: these are our friends.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Elon Musk, you.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Know, I don't think anybody can deny that Elon Musk
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: helped Donald Trump win this election. Perhaps he was a
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: deciding factor just by the fact that he bought Twitter
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and created a space for genuine free expression, at least
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: for a time.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: I don't know about anymore, but.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: For a time there was. And I think it's been
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: really difficult for people to understand Elon in the wake
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: of his H-1B stance. How do you think the political
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: right should handle someone like Elon Musk, who we're grateful to,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: but who many of us on the America First side
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: really disagree with on this issue that's not just a
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: dividing issue or a sigh up.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: It is the issue.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: It's mass immigration. It's the identity of this country.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would see absolutely no ground. And look, I
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: understand that they gave a lot of money and I
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: think MAGA is super appreciative and grateful of that. But
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: that doesn't give you the chance to then co-opt the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: movement and dictate the policies.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: You can have a seat at the table, but then
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: make the case right for H-1B visas. But let's make
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the case with full transparency. Let's get the data out there.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: And the reason why you, I mean, you understand how
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the media.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Works, right?
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: If they had these sob stories, they would find, they
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: would every night on Choose Your Outlet, they'd be highlighting, oh,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: this H-1B person created all the jobs. So this person
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: did all that, but they're not doing that because it's
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: not a winnable issue. And at the end of the day,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I think it just comes to sort of a different
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: construct of what is, what it means to be an American,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: what the idea, the relationship between a citizen and the
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: government should be. And I think that in, you know,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: tech world, I think it's just a little bit different, right?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: They're transhumanists. I think it's sort of a shotgun marriage, right?
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: That's how I would describe it. I think we're all
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: united during the election because we had a common enemy, right?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: And that was Joe Biden, and it was the Democratic establishment,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: it was the Democratic Party, and to some extent, the
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Republican establishment. But I do think our side, I think
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: we do like to get into fights.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's sort of our our M.O. And I
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: think now that we did so well in the election,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: thank thank God. But I think there's sort of that,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: you know, desire that drive to sort of, you know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: you're looking for something.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Everyone's always sort of on attack. But I just I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: fundamentally think that this is not an issue. that we
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: can compromise on. Because it is the thing itself, I think,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: in two ways. One, it is the sovereignty citizenship issue, right?
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: It really, I think, begets the question of what does
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: it mean to be an American citizen, right? To be
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: an American citizen, you shouldn't have your government actively working
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: to discriminate against you, to rob you of your livelihoods
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: and make you live essentially a death of despair, treat
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: you like roadkill, right? Where you have to train your
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: replacement from your government-sanctioned, imported, you know, Indian replacement worker,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: which is statistically... What it's going to be right when
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: they're not more qualified than you. And I think, too,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: sort of what I was talking about with the transhumanism stuff,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I think it sort of gets, you know, this is
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: maybe a little more abstract in my California woo woo
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: is coming out. But I think it also just gets
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: to different conceptions and conceptualizations of humanity in the sense
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that I think the tech bro. mindset loves the idea
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: of terraforming and creating humanity, creating mankind, not in the
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: image of God, but in their image, right? That's what
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: transhumanism is, right? The Brian Johnson's of the world, the
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: people who want to live forever. And I think that
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: what they're trying to do is sort of terraform this
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: country Into like a work colony where all they care
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: about is productivity. And I think that that right there
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: is sort of the debate. You know, I don't know
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: about you. I would rather live in an America where
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: I can walk down the street and feel safe and
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: look around and feel like I live in America and
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: not like I live in another country, which if I
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: wanted to live there, I would go and live there.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: And maybe it's worth, I don't know, maybe my, you know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: DoorDash delivery will arrive 15 minutes later. I would rather
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: bring back what this country was founded on, right? The
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: founding fathers' vision of communities and platoons and just kinship
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: and everyone coming together. And I don't think that getting
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: something delivered quicker or having an Amazon hub this much
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: closer to your neighborhood or having, what, some tech company that,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: by the way, all they're really doing is working to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: censor you and accuse you of spreading misinformation. I'm so
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: glad we're importing the best of the brightest from cultures
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: that don't respect free speech to really make sure that
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: they can censor you with the utmost skill, because that's
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: essentially what's happening, right? That's what's going on. So I
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: think it's a question of trade-offs. And like I said,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: it's so muddled. Because they have so much money. I mean,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: we were talking about there's so many just weird lobbying
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: campaigns going on. And I just would caution your audience,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: do not believe what you see, everything you see on
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Twitter when people are posting clips of, you know, wow,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg. Wow, he's so MAGA. Yeah, well, if you
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: think Mark Zuckerberg is MAGA, then I think if a
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: hooker told you they love you, you'd believe that too.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: He is not MAGA. And I think... We need to
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: be very cautious of people like him. Because you know what, Avita,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: they lack? What you were just talking about is the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: courage that you and I, even at age 19 and 20,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: had to stand in the breach when we were getting
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: death threats and being attacked and the threat of losing
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: our entire social life and our relationships and our careers
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: and our reputation. At age 19, for me it was 18,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: we stood in the breach. We took the incoming because
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: we knew it was worth it. I'm so sorry that
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: some White House executives cussed at you, Mark Zuckerberg, right?
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. It's absurd. Be a man talking about
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: a masculinity crisis, right?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you heard him on Joe Rogan complaining
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: about how he's being bullied and they were screaming at
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: my staff.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: It's like, I'm sorry, sir.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: You're like one of the most wealthy, powerful men in
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the entire world. If you really cared about free expression,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: it would be very easy for you to take a
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: principled stand. I mean, Elon Musk did it to his credit.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk did do that. And he's been standing up
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: to advertisers and the pressure that that comes from the
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: federal government as well. Mark Zuckerberg is a coward. He
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: doesn't believe in any of this. I think most of
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: these guys, they believe in themselves. They're jumping on the
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: MAGA bandwagon because they see the way that the culture
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: is going. And I think a lot of it comes
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: down to what does America first mean? Because you see
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy using that phrase, but I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: don't think they mean the same thing I.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: Mean when I say America first. I mean, I'm thinking
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: of the preamble.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: The general welfare of the American people, provide for the
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: common defense, the general welfare. And I don't see them
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: taking on that same ideal. And Natalie, a critique that
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: we've been seeing from specifically Vivek, but echoed by others,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: is that American culture is deficient. And we just spent,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: like you said, 20 minutes talking about how college campuses
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: are poisoned, how they're spewing out these miniature Marxists who
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: hate this country.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: At the same time, I don't like that as an
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: excuse for why we need to import cheap labor. How
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: would you respond to someone like Vivek saying, well, you
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: guys watch cartoons too long and you like Saved by
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the Bell and therefore we need more Indians in this country?
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I think that it's sort of an interesting... proposition,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: because I would argue that it really is sort of
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: the Zuckerberg, Soros-tier left-wing activist groups that have been funding
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: these universities, sort of pushing this agenda just subversively on
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: the culture more broadly. So they create the problem, and
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: then they get to benefit from it, essentially. They get
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: to say, look at the cultural disaster we've created. Now,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: as a result of that, we have to now import
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: a new entire basically country of people I guess it
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: sort of sounds like COVID-19 and the pandemic, right? The
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: people who were supposed to prevent it suddenly are now
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: profiting off of it. But again, I think just at
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: face value, I would sort of reject Vivek's proposition and
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: proposal in the sense that If you look at America, again,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: what you were talking about, how you conceive of America,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: if you conceive of it as a special economic zone
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: where the only thing that is important is GDP and
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: productivity and having a bunch of Fortune 500 companies and
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: being really, really successful, then I guess you're right. Kids
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have sleepovers and they should be raised in pods
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: and we should live in weird, weft, 15-minute cities. You
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have parents. We should be raised in work communes
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and we should write the whole thing. I feel like
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: I'm reading out a dystopic novel. But fine. That's not
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: what this country was founded on. And if you want
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: to live in some Marxist hellhole where the only thing
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: that matters is your wage and your job and there's
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: a weird, you know, politically favored, advantaged upper class, then
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: go live in China and see how well it's working
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: out there, right? This, I think it's so funny because
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: you hear so much I think, from the sort of,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: you know, D.C., K Street think tank crowd. Oh, this
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: century is all about democracy versus authoritarianism. And I think
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: in some ways this is like the right wing's own
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: iteration of that.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't like how they use the word democracy.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: But I think if you use democracy in the sense.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: or I guess it'd be a constitutional republic in the
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: way that the founding fathers intended. I think America has
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: been unique because it has always been about community and
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: coming together and your small church groups and the little leagues, right?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: That is American culture. And it's not just about boosting
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: profit margins, right? We wouldn't have probably separated from the
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: British empire, right? I know obviously the whole taxation issue
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: was its own thing, but there's this, I think, unique
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: culture here that you see and just the way colonial
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: America was, right? These small towns coming together and people
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: just being very close. And I think that there's something
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: unique in that brilliance that produces so many entrepreneurs that
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: created companies that, I don't know, and again, I'm not
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: a tech bro, I don't pretend to be, but it
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: seems like The good old days of America were when
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: we were sending people to the moon and doing things
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: that the whole world was envious of, right? American culture, right?
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: The McDonald's, right? The Cold War, like that kind of stuff.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Now it's like, oh, wow, we've made so many advancements.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Now we've created algorithms that can censor you without having
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: a human behind the machine. It just automatically can do
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: what they call social listening and pick up on what
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: you said because you said the word COVID vaccine and
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: you weren't, you know, Fawning it over with praise for it.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: So I just think that the innovation that we've sort
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: of seen isn't really innovation. Again, I guess I just
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: always push back on the framing of everything that I receive. But,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I don't think that Vivek is necessarily right, not to
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: say that there haven't been wonderful innovations, but I think
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: also look at what our exports have been culturally. It's,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: you know, the drag queen shows and transgenderism and the companies,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: it's censorship and it's misinformation and weird Atlantic Council think
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: tanks and coups and color revolutions. And now they're coming
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: back to bite us, right? With people like Norm Eisen,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: they're waging their color revolution here. But I just think
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: it's two very, very different visions. I think if you
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: really trace it back to the origins of humanity, right?
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And the idea that, you know, we are not created
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: in the image of God with a special purpose and
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: reason to exist and families and all of that lovely,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: wonderful stuff matters. But that if you're, you know, working class,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: your job is to just, you know, have Vivek make
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: a quick buck. It's it's I think it's it's very backwards.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: And I think they hide behind their their large sums
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: of money. And, you know, their big vocabulary, which I
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: guess I love me a big vocabulary. But I don't
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: think I don't think that they're right. And even if
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: they were right on the merits, I don't think that
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: that's what America was founded on. So if you want
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: to do that, then fine. Do it somewhere else. Do
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: it in a country that's founded on those values. But
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: I don't see anywhere really in our founding documents the
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: idea that like humanity and mankind is not something special anymore. right,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: the pursuit of happiness. It's not the pursuit of wages
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and the pursuit of, you know, being a, you know,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: tech slave where you live in a pod doing nothing.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think that they've sort of overlooked that. Also, they
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: can probably sleep well at night and feel like they're
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: not destroying this country.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think what you're explaining is a
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: spiritual deficiency. And I think, you know, Alexis de Tocqueville,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: when he was traveling through America as a French philosopher,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: he said, you know, America is great because America is
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: good and America was founded by people who believed that
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: we were.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: You know, had Christian morals.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: I think it was John Adams who said, you know,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: this is a nation built for a moral and religious people.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: It's wholly inadequate for any other. And we've really lost that.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it's American identity and culture that's
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the problem. And you listed all of the amazing things
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: that America has done and provided the world.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: In its heyday.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: And actually, it's the destruction of American culture and identity.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: that has poisoned us and poisoned all of our exports
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: as well, right? The color revolutions and the forever wars.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: And I think you're right.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: That it is about who we are as a people
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: being a positive thing and that immigration actually is, the
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: mass immigration is what's deteriorating and destroying all of the
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: things that made us great. And so then for Vivek
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: and Elon and all these other tech bros to say, oh,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: the solution is to bring in more people who are
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: then furthering the destruction of the identity and creating the
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: problem is so, I think, ironic and should be so
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: obviously wrong to a lot of people. And unfortunately, we
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: just have to keep explaining this. But Natalie, I want
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: to be respectful of your time. I really appreciate all
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: of your insights on everything from college campuses to the
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: H-1B visa debate.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Where can people go to follow you?
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me on. Promise
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: that next time I host War Room, you will come
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: on as my guest.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: We can do some of the UChicago stuff. I think
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: my audience is probably like, oh, enough with the sorority
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: transgender story. But you can find me, Natalie G. Winters,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: on Twitter, Instagram. I have a Facebook. I'll probably be
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: banned on all of them after this interview. But really, Evita,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me on. It's been
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: so cool to watch, like I said, watch our careers change.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: both kind of take off. And I know firsthand, I'm
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: sure so many members of your audience do too, how
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: hard it can be when you have to stand in
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: the breach. But for what it's worth, you have more
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: courage than Mark Zuckerberg. So that has to mean something.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Well, you do too, Natalie. And you guys should all
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: go follow her.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Her work is amazing. Thank you so much for being here.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: For all of you listening, drop a comment. Let me
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: know if you enjoyed this episode. And with that, I
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: will see you all next time.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: The U.S. Soccer Podcast.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Megan Klingenberg, and I am super stoked
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: to be joined by Daryl Dike. Arguably, your most impressive
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• 43:51
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• 43:52
  Speaker 2: That's a good intro right there.
• 43:53
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