Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Tylenol Murders
Transcript
- 0:01Speaker 1: Welcome to rainy day rabbit Holes, where we take the
- 0:04Speaker 1: history of the West off the rails.
- 0:05Speaker 2: If you like your history unhinged, you are in the
- 0:08Speaker 2: right place. I'm shy and I'm Jody. Let's fall down
- 0:12Speaker 2: the rabbit hole.
- 0:15Speaker 1: It begins with a throbbing in the temples, maybe a
- 0:19Speaker 1: feeling like an ice pick behind your eyes. You rub
- 0:23Speaker 1: the bridge of your nose, but it's getting worse.
- 0:27Speaker 2: So what do you do, Jody? Get some tile and
- 0:29Speaker 2: all that's right? You pop a tail and all, oh,
- 0:34Speaker 2: I was right, you were right. Yeah, good old assema. Uh,
- 0:40Speaker 2: let's see, how do we say this? A ceda menafin Jesus,
- 0:43Speaker 2: a ceta metaphin. Look, it's not that hard, guys, it's
- 0:46Speaker 2: a ceda menaphin. So Thailandl's name is being dragged through
- 0:52Speaker 2: the mud by a bunch of claims made without real
- 0:55Speaker 2: scientific backing.
- 0:56Speaker 1: But you know that's never stopped. Captain Cankeles or doctor
- 1:00Speaker 1: Brain were before.
- 1:02Speaker 2: Nope.
- 1:02Speaker 1: And even though this shifts blame onto women once again
- 1:06Speaker 1: and once again restricts their choices, you know, let's just
- 1:11Speaker 1: put the current nightmare that is our country aside for
- 1:15Speaker 1: a moment. Let's travel back in time to another nightmare,
- 1:19Speaker 1: a darker time when taking a tailanol for a simple
- 1:23Speaker 1: headache was like playing Russian roulette, a time when an
- 1:27Speaker 1: innocuous bottle of tailanol could kill Jody.
- 1:32Speaker 2: That's your cue. Oh, dun't dun't du I was like thinking,
- 1:37Speaker 2: in my head, I was here. I mean, I remember
- 1:39Speaker 2: this all going down. I already know where you're headed,
- 1:43Speaker 2: and I was remembering it all in my head.
- 1:48Speaker 1: It's September nineteen eighty two in Chicago. The hair was big,
- 1:53Speaker 1: the pizza was deep. There wasn't a Federal National Guard
- 1:57Speaker 1: person to be seen. Ice wasn't snatching people off the street,
- 2:02Speaker 1: and a series of terrifying deaths would grip the nation
- 2:06Speaker 1: and lead to massive changes in the United States. In
- 2:09Speaker 1: the early morning of September twenty eighth, twelve year old
- 2:13Speaker 1: Elk Grove resident Mary Kellerman had a bit of a
- 2:16Speaker 1: sore throat and a ready nose. No big deal, normal
- 2:20Speaker 1: type of complaint, the beginning of a little cold, so
- 2:23Speaker 1: her mom gave her a single extra strength tile and
- 2:26Speaker 1: old capsule to soothe her aching throat. Mary collapsed on
- 2:30Speaker 1: the bathroom floor and was dead by seven am.
- 2:34Speaker 2: Wow, how long after she took it.
- 2:36Speaker 1: It's very short. They didn't give an actual time, but
- 2:38Speaker 1: I think it's within minutes.
- 2:40Speaker 2: Wow.
- 2:41Speaker 1: The same day as well, however long it would take
- 2:44Speaker 1: for that gelatine capsule to dissolve in your stomach.
- 2:49Speaker 2: Minutes, yeah, for sure.
- 2:52Speaker 1: The same day, less than ten miles away, in Arlington Heights,
- 2:56Speaker 1: a twenty seven year old postal worker named Adam Janis
- 2:59Speaker 1: took two extra strength tilnal capsules. He hadn't been feeling
- 3:03Speaker 1: well when he woke up for work that day, so
- 3:05Speaker 1: on his way home, he stopped at the jewel Oscar
- 3:08Speaker 1: store in Arlington Heights and bought a bottle of pain reliever.
- 3:11Speaker 1: He took the pills and began to feel strange Very
- 3:15Speaker 1: shortly after. He went to lay down, but when he
- 3:18Speaker 1: became unresponsive, he was rushed to the hospital. He died
- 3:22Speaker 1: that afternoon. Doctors told his grieving family that it had
- 3:25Speaker 1: been a heart attack. The family wept over Adam's body
- 3:29Speaker 1: and then went back to Adam's house. His brother, Stanley Janis,
- 3:33Speaker 1: twenty five years old, and Stanley's brand new wife, Teresa,
- 3:38Speaker 1: twenty years old, both in shock and feeling terrible with
- 3:43Speaker 1: massive headaches, found a bottle full of tilnyl capsules in
- 3:48Speaker 1: the house and took a couple each. A third brother, Joe,
- 3:53Speaker 1: watched in horror as his brother Stanley fell to the floor,
- 3:57Speaker 1: white foam coming out of his mouth, eyes rolled backwards, words,
- 4:01Speaker 1: and Joe called an ambulance. When the paramedics were loading
- 4:04Speaker 1: Stanley into the ambulance, Teresa stumbled after them, calling her
- 4:07Speaker 1: husband's name and collapsed. Both were taken to the hospital
- 4:11Speaker 1: and later died. At their funeral, both caskets were carried
- 4:16Speaker 1: into the same church where they had been married just
- 4:19Speaker 1: three months earlier.
- 4:21Speaker 2: Three months Sorry, I had like all of a sudden
- 4:25Speaker 2: got me choked up.
- 4:27Speaker 1: It was just as so tragic, both caskets being carried
- 4:31Speaker 1: in one after the other.
- 4:33Speaker 2: Just can you imagine.
- 4:34Speaker 1: Over the next few days, three more strange deaths would
- 4:38Speaker 1: rock the community. Thirty five year old Mary McFarland of Elmhurst,
- 4:43Speaker 1: thirty five year old Paula Prince of Chicago, and twenty
- 4:47Speaker 1: seven year old Mary Reiner of Winfield, who had just delivered.
- 4:50Speaker 2: Her fourth child.
- 4:53Speaker 1: Besides dying tragically young and living in the Greater Chicago area,
- 4:57Speaker 1: what did these three women have in common? Well, they
- 5:00Speaker 1: all took tylanol shortly before dying. At this point, investigators
- 5:05Speaker 1: were making the connection between the deaths, thanks in part
- 5:08Speaker 1: to some savvy people, firefighter Chuck Kramer and plucky nurse
- 5:14Speaker 1: Helen Jensen. She worked in Arlington Heights Village, and they
- 5:20Speaker 1: both worked to put two and two together. Tylanol was
- 5:24Speaker 1: at the time the most popular non aspirin pain reliever
- 5:27Speaker 1: in the United States, and these gelatin capsules were especially
- 5:31Speaker 1: popular because they were easy to swallow. Helen visited the
- 5:36Speaker 1: Janus's home and noticed the almost full bottle of Tylanl
- 5:41Speaker 1: extra strength capsules sitting on a counter. She counted the
- 5:44Speaker 1: capsules and noticed that six were missing, two for each death.
- 5:50Speaker 1: She immediately brought this to the attention of the medical
- 5:53Speaker 1: examiner and the police, but they laughed at her. Kramer,
- 5:58Speaker 1: the firefighter, tracked down a pair of medic who had
- 6:00Speaker 1: responded to the twelve year old Mary Keller's death, who
- 6:04Speaker 1: said she had also taken Thailand all. He also reported
- 6:08Speaker 1: his findings, but nobody believed him either, so they both
- 6:14Speaker 1: just kept hounding the police and the medical examiner, who
- 6:17Speaker 1: eventually agreed to look into it, and shortly it was
- 6:20Speaker 1: discovered that the capsules in the bottle contained lethal doses
- 6:23Speaker 1: of potassium cyanide powder enough to kill a person many
- 6:27Speaker 1: times over. Wow, And so do you know was it
- 6:30Speaker 1: the whole bottle or just was it a Russian roulette situation.
- 6:35Speaker 1: I don't think every single capsule was I was contaminated.
- 6:39Speaker 2: I can't remember. That's a lot of you know, product,
- 6:43Speaker 2: And you know that you had to take each of
- 6:46Speaker 2: those pills apart, dump them out, put them back together,
- 6:49Speaker 2: a lot of eff Yeah.
- 6:50Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's so when I was looking into this story,
- 6:53Speaker 1: I listened to an amazing podcast all about the Thailand
- 6:58Speaker 1: All murders, and it was done by the Chicago New Tribune,
- 7:01Speaker 1: So an incredible investigative journalism. Yeah, and we'll get into
- 7:05Speaker 1: it later. But the one person that they really were
- 7:07Speaker 1: focusing on as a suspect later on, at one point
- 7:11Speaker 1: was saying that he was helping the investigators and describing
- 7:14Speaker 1: how they might contaminate the capsules by using like he
- 7:18Speaker 1: called it the breadboard method, where it was something about
- 7:21Speaker 1: creating a channel in a plank of wood and putting
- 7:24Speaker 1: the capsules in there, and you could dump the cyanide
- 7:26Speaker 1: on the board and just scrape it into this channel
- 7:28Speaker 1: with a knife. And it would fill the capsules.
- 7:30Speaker 2: Oh got it.
- 7:31Speaker 1: I mean yeah, it's time consuming to fill all those capsules,
- 7:34Speaker 1: but you know it was doable.
- 7:36Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So a nation, if you're if
- 7:39Speaker 2: you're if you're dedicated to your mission, it probably is
- 7:42Speaker 2: not a problem at all. Right, you know, if you're
- 7:45Speaker 2: really serious about what you're about to do and you
- 7:47Speaker 2: need the result that you're after, right.
- 7:50Speaker 1: Right, A nationwide panic ensued. Obviously, law enforcement drove through
- 7:56Speaker 1: neighborhoods with loud speakers telling all of the residents to
- 7:59Speaker 1: throw any tail in. Johnson and Johnson recalled at least
- 8:02Speaker 1: thirty one million bottles. It was the first mass recall
- 8:06Speaker 1: in American history.
- 8:08Speaker 2: Oh really yep?
- 8:09Speaker 1: And it started a murder investigation that would span over
- 8:13Speaker 1: forty years and had more twists and turns than an
- 8:15Speaker 1: Agatha Christie novel, which we will get into after this
- 8:20Speaker 1: quick break. Seven innocent people were now dead, all after
- 8:33Speaker 1: ingesting deadly cyanide tainted tailanl capsules. But how did the
- 8:38Speaker 1: cyanide get in there? Both law enforcement and Johnson and
- 8:41Speaker 1: Johnson were digging into the case. Jay and j quickly
- 8:44Speaker 1: established that the cyanide lacing happened after the tilanol left
- 8:48Speaker 1: the factory, and police found receipts for the purchase of
- 8:52Speaker 1: tilanol by several of the victims, Jewel food Stores in
- 8:55Speaker 1: Arlington Heights and Elk Grove Village, Walgreens in Chicago's Old Town,
- 9:00Speaker 1: Oscar Drug at the Woodfield Mall, Dominic's, Finer Foods in
- 9:04Speaker 1: Old Town, and Woolworth's in Lombard. The police hypothesized that
- 9:09Speaker 1: the bottles had been taken off the store shelves, most
- 9:12Speaker 1: likely stolen the capsules laced with cyanide, and then the
- 9:15Speaker 1: packages returned to the shelves. So for our younger listeners,
- 9:21Speaker 1: you may not know this, but back in the day,
- 9:24Speaker 1: there were no safety seals on bottles, right, that's a
- 9:27Speaker 1: new invention because of this.
- 9:29Speaker 2: I remember as a child that they had to add that.
- 9:33Speaker 1: Yeah, you had a flimsy paper cardboard box, most likely
- 9:39Speaker 1: not glued shut. It was just a flap that you
- 9:41Speaker 1: could pull open and then you just screw off the top.
- 9:44Speaker 1: And all that is in there protecting your medicines from
- 9:48Speaker 1: the rest of the world is a ball of cotton.
- 9:51Speaker 2: That's it.
- 9:52Speaker 1: And these gelatin capsules were popular because they were easy
- 9:56Speaker 1: to swallow, unlike you know, your regular tablets, they get
- 10:00Speaker 1: stuck as soon as they get sticky when they get wet,
- 10:03Speaker 1: and it's harder to swallow. So these were popular. But
- 10:07Speaker 1: they were just a gelatine capsule that you could just
- 10:09Speaker 1: break open and dump all the contents out.
- 10:11Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just a recipe right there
- 10:15Speaker 2: for disaster exactly. In early nineteen eighty three, at the
- 10:19Speaker 2: FBI's request, a trap was set to lure the killer.
- 10:23Speaker 2: In Chicago Tribune columnist Bob Green published the home address
- 10:28Speaker 2: and grave location of twelve year old Mary Kellerman, and
- 10:33Speaker 2: then they kept a twenty four hour surveillance on the
- 10:36Speaker 2: Kellerman's home and Mary's gravesite for several months, just hoping
- 10:41Speaker 2: that the killer would show up, but to no avail.
- 10:44Speaker 2: And I am really surprised that the family of Mary
- 10:47Speaker 2: Kellerman went along with this. It was their home address
- 10:50Speaker 2: that the question in the paper, so anywheredo so oh,
- 10:53Speaker 2: and they were part of it. I was wondering when
- 10:55Speaker 2: you said it, like ooh, like that is not kind
- 10:58Speaker 2: to the family. But they were aware of it, huh
- 11:00Speaker 2: they went away.
- 11:01Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they went along with it, which is
- 11:03Speaker 1: very surprising. I mean, yeah, of course they want to
- 11:05Speaker 1: know why this happened to their daughter and catch the
- 11:08Speaker 1: person responsible. But you know that's that's scary.
- 11:12Speaker 2: Boxing meant something different back then. Maybe it didn't see
- 11:15Speaker 2: miss Scary. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- 11:18Speaker 1: I mean, but remember back in our research, back in
- 11:22Speaker 1: the olden days, when somebody was reporting on a story
- 11:26Speaker 1: and somebody just you know, they interviewed somebody on the street,
- 11:29Speaker 1: they would.
- 11:29Speaker 2: Publish their name and address. Oh yeah right, they're like according.
- 11:33Speaker 1: To miss ethel Hefferman, who resides at one two eight
- 11:38Speaker 1: six five Grove Courts, Northwest and Tacoma, Washington, and the
- 11:43Speaker 1: blue house with the red shutters, you.
- 11:45Speaker 2: Know, and legitimacy to the story by having exact details.
- 11:52Speaker 1: Right, we didn't make her up. You could just go
- 11:53Speaker 1: to her house and knock on the door and ask
- 11:56Speaker 1: her if she said these things, and like, I just
- 11:59Speaker 1: can't imagine that right now, you know. So there was
- 12:02Speaker 1: also one surveillance photo of another victim, Paula Prince, that
- 12:06Speaker 1: she was purchasing her bottle of tail and al at Walgreens.
- 12:11Speaker 1: There's this bearded man in the video be just behind her,
- 12:15Speaker 1: and they surmised that maybe that was the killer. But
- 12:18Speaker 1: that was literally it that's all they had to go on.
- 12:21Speaker 2: They had nothing, just real guesses, is all they're walking with. Yeah, exactly.
- 12:26Speaker 1: But then in October of the same year, law enforcement
- 12:30Speaker 1: received a chilling letter. It included details of the investigation
- 12:35Speaker 1: that had not been made public, and it demanded one
- 12:38Speaker 1: million dollars to stop the killings. It was signed by
- 12:43Speaker 1: a man named Robert Richardson, and here's what it said, gentlemen.
- 12:48Speaker 1: As you can see, it is easy to place cyanide,
- 12:52Speaker 1: both potassium and sodium into capsules sitting on store shelves.
- 12:57Speaker 1: And since the cyanide is inside the jelatine, and it
- 13:00Speaker 1: is easy to get buyers to swallow the bitter pill.
- 13:04Speaker 1: Another beauty is that cyanide operates quickly. It takes so
- 13:09Speaker 1: very little and there will be no time to take countermeasures.
- 13:13Speaker 1: If you don't mind the publicity of these little capsules,
- 13:17Speaker 1: then do nothing. So far, I have spent less than
- 13:20Speaker 1: fifty dollars and it takes me less than ten minutes
- 13:23Speaker 1: per bottle. If you want to stop the killing, then
- 13:27Speaker 1: wire one million dollars to bank account number eight four
- 13:30Speaker 1: four nine five seven at Continental Illinois Bank, Chicago, Illinois.
- 13:35Speaker 1: Don't attempt to involve the FBI or local Chicago authorities
- 13:39Speaker 1: with this letter, a couple of phone calls, Buy me,
- 13:42Speaker 1: will undo anything you can possibly do?
- 13:45Speaker 2: Wow? Ballsy right? So, and do they look into this
- 13:49Speaker 2: bank account? It feels like that'd be very easy for
- 13:52Speaker 2: them to identify someone.
- 13:55Speaker 1: This was really interesting. So Robert Richardson owned a travel
- 14:00Speaker 1: agency called Lakeside Travel and One, and they had recently
- 14:06Speaker 1: shut down. One of the people he used to work
- 14:09Speaker 1: there was a woman named Leanne Lewis, and when Lakeside
- 14:15Speaker 1: Travel closed its doors, it had a lot of back
- 14:20Speaker 1: pay owed to its employees and never paid them. Leanne
- 14:24Speaker 1: was an accountant at Lakeside Travel, so she would have
- 14:27Speaker 1: had access to their bank account information.
- 14:32Speaker 2: And where that money went or write if there is any.
- 14:36Speaker 1: So this letter led them back. Obviously they looked into that,
- 14:40Speaker 1: and they looked into the employees. That bank account belonged
- 14:44Speaker 1: to Lakeside Travel, but it wasn't Robert Richardson. He didn't
- 14:49Speaker 1: do this and sign his own name like that would
- 14:51Speaker 1: be very dumb. But it led them to the husband
- 14:54Speaker 1: of Leanne, James W. Lewis, and they linked him through
- 14:57Speaker 1: handwriting and fingerprints on the let When they talked to
- 15:01Speaker 1: James Lewis about this. He said that it was an
- 15:07Speaker 1: attempt to embarrass his wife's former employer because you know,
- 15:11Speaker 1: they didn't pay her her back pay, and also to
- 15:14Speaker 1: bring attention to Johnson and Johnson's vulnerability. He denied any
- 15:19Speaker 1: involvement in the title murders, but he was convicted for
- 15:23Speaker 1: attempted extortion and served twelve years in prison for this.
- 15:26Speaker 1: But they at that time were not able to link
- 15:29Speaker 1: him to the title of murders.
- 15:30Speaker 2: But you could he was just trying to make money
- 15:32Speaker 2: off this. Well, but they haven't ruled it out that
- 15:35Speaker 2: it wasn't oh got it, okay, They just didn't have
- 15:37Speaker 2: enough evidence to actually tie him.
- 15:40Speaker 1: All they had was this letter. Sure, But something interesting
- 15:44Speaker 1: that they found out. James Lewis's daughter, who was born
- 15:48Speaker 1: with Down syndrome, was born with a lot of heart defects,
- 15:51Speaker 1: had a lot of surgeries, and she passed away in
- 15:55Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four from complications from this congenital heart defect.
- 15:59Speaker 1: And it was found that the sutures used in her
- 16:02Speaker 1: heart during this most recent surgery had ripped, and those
- 16:06Speaker 1: sutures were under a patent held by Jay and.
- 16:09Speaker 2: J Okay Yep so suture business.
- 16:13Speaker 1: To this day, right, So they suspected that maybe this was,
- 16:18Speaker 1: you know, some retribution for the death of his daughter,
- 16:22Speaker 1: though he denied it forever. So Lewis was the investigator's
- 16:25Speaker 1: main suspect for decades, but they were never able to
- 16:29Speaker 1: pinant on him. The case went cold. No, remember this
- 16:32Speaker 1: was nineteen eighty two that this happened. It was reopened
- 16:35Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine by the FBI, but despite
- 16:42Speaker 1: having a search warrant for James Lewis's house and seizing
- 16:45Speaker 1: a ton of potential evidence, including computers and documents and
- 16:50Speaker 1: DNA analysis, they were still not definitively able to tie
- 16:53Speaker 1: him to the murders. And unfortunately, to this day, we
- 16:58Speaker 1: will never know if James Lewis was indeed the title
- 17:02Speaker 1: and all killer because he died in July of twenty twenty.
- 17:07Speaker 2: Three, oh recently ish.
- 17:09Speaker 1: Yeah, but side note, it's not that he was just
- 17:12Speaker 1: an innocent bystander. Like obviously we already know about the
- 17:16Speaker 1: extortion letter that he served twelve years for. He was
- 17:19Speaker 1: also convicted of mail fraud, so he dabbled. Yeah, he
- 17:25Speaker 1: sent a threatening letter to President Reagan threatening to use
- 17:28Speaker 1: a radio controlled model airplane to interfere with Secret Service
- 17:33Speaker 1: operations at the White House. In two thousand and four,
- 17:37Speaker 1: he was arrested in charge with multiple felonies, including rape, kidnapping, assault,
- 17:41Speaker 1: at administering drugs with intent to commit a crime. So broad, yeah,
- 17:49Speaker 1: area of illegal criminalidations.
- 17:52Speaker 2: Yes.
- 17:53Speaker 1: So in that one, he allegedly lured a young woman
- 17:56Speaker 1: into his home, drugged her with and assaulted her don't I.
- 18:01Speaker 2: Don't know, obviously not potassium.
- 18:04Speaker 1: It wish she would be dead. Yeah. He was held for
- 18:07Speaker 1: three years and released when the charges were dismissed because
- 18:11Speaker 1: the woman refused to testify. He was also this was
- 18:16Speaker 1: very interesting. He was also charged with the murder and
- 18:19Speaker 1: dismemberment of one of his tax clients in nineteen seventy eight,
- 18:24Speaker 1: but that case was dropped because the original arresting officers
- 18:28Speaker 1: failed to properly mirandize him and therefore all of his
- 18:32Speaker 1: testimony and everything that came after that was not admissible. Insane, Yeah,
- 18:38Speaker 1: so the DA had to just drop it loopol. That
- 18:42Speaker 1: was a really sad part of this story. It was
- 18:44Speaker 1: this old man who James Lewis was his tax man,
- 18:49Speaker 1: and like everybody in the town knew this old man
- 18:53Speaker 1: and he had been talking about how like, man, my
- 18:56Speaker 1: tax guy just keeps hanging around, he keeps showing up
- 18:59Speaker 1: in my house like he's getting in my business in
- 19:01Speaker 1: a way that's that I don't like. And then this
- 19:03Speaker 1: guy just disappeared. Nobody could get a hold of him.
- 19:07Speaker 1: They went to his house and there was a padlock
- 19:09Speaker 1: on the door. They couldn't find him anywhere. And then
- 19:12Speaker 1: finally they went up into the attic and there was
- 19:15Speaker 1: this like his dismembered body in the attic.
- 19:20Speaker 2: What go ahead? Like, just who was this body?
- 19:23Speaker 1: Like this man that I'm talking about, this old man,
- 19:25Speaker 1: his body was in his own attic. Okay, And a
- 19:29Speaker 1: few days after he disappeared, a five thousand dollars check
- 19:35Speaker 1: made out to James Lewis was attempted to be cleared
- 19:39Speaker 1: through his bank.
- 19:40Speaker 2: Wow, there was a.
- 19:42Speaker 1: Lot of evidence tying this guy to this murder. But
- 19:45Speaker 1: because these officers were so gung ho and they did
- 19:48Speaker 1: not that's unfortunately William randize him. This poor guy. They
- 19:52Speaker 1: had to just ano family who won't ever see any consequences. Right,
- 19:57Speaker 1: But back in nineteen eighty six, James Lewis was on
- 20:02Speaker 1: the radar but hadn't been just you know, he was there.
- 20:06Speaker 1: Nothing really had happened. The case was still open, so investigators,
- 20:11Speaker 1: even though they suspected James Lewis, they still did not
- 20:14Speaker 1: know for sure who had committed the murders. Maybe it
- 20:17Speaker 1: was Lewis, but maybe the real killer was still out there,
- 20:20Speaker 1: and maybe the killer had moved to the misty forests
- 20:25Speaker 1: of the Pacific Northwest.
- 20:26Speaker 2: Maybe maybe. Yeah.
- 20:28Speaker 1: But before we go on and come to our region,
- 20:31Speaker 1: let's take a quick break before we get back to
- 20:42Speaker 1: the story. If you're listening to this episode before Christmas
- 20:45Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five, we want to announce a special
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- 21:40Speaker 1: let's get back to the story. So it's nineteen eighty six, Auburn, Washington.
- 21:46Speaker 1: The hair is still big, although slightly more damp. A
- 21:50Speaker 1: young Jodie King is emptying a bottle of aquinet on
- 21:54Speaker 1: our bangs for sure.
- 21:56Speaker 2: Actually it was an Ausi sprune spray probably, Okay, a
- 21:59Speaker 2: bottle of a rapey preparing to go out and dissipate
- 22:03Speaker 2: some poor little girl in the soft ball field. Yeah,
- 22:08Speaker 2: hit with a pitch, for sure, if you're nasty.
- 22:11Speaker 1: On June fifth, Stella Nickel called the fire department. Her husband, Bruce,
- 22:16Speaker 1: a heavy machinery operator, had collapsed. Emergency personnel rushed to
- 22:21Speaker 1: their single wide trailer in Auburn, where the unconscious Bruce
- 22:25Speaker 1: lay on the floor. He was rushed by helicopter to
- 22:28Speaker 1: Harbor View Hospital in Seattle, but died shortly after. The
- 22:33Speaker 1: autopsy declared the cause of death to be Emphysima. Stella
- 22:37Speaker 1: said that Bruce had come home from work that day
- 22:40Speaker 1: with a headache. He took four extra strength et CE
- 22:45Speaker 1: cap lets with capsules, which I think is more than
- 22:47Speaker 1: the recommended doses.
- 22:48Speaker 2: That seems like, I mean, if they're the same as
- 22:51Speaker 2: they are today, Yes, that's twice the dose. Yeah.
- 22:54Speaker 1: Well, and when't is extra strength so that you can
- 22:57Speaker 1: just take one?
- 22:59Speaker 2: Yes, but max dos is their five hundred milligrams each
- 23:04Speaker 2: and max dos is one thousand at a time. Yeah.
- 23:07Speaker 1: So anyway, so he popped four of these puppies, walked
- 23:11Speaker 1: out onto the back deck to watch the birds, and
- 23:14Speaker 1: collapse within minutes. Then six days later, on June eleventh,
- 23:21Speaker 1: fifteen year old Haley Snow found her mother's Sue unconscious
- 23:25Speaker 1: on the floor of the bathroom in their Auburn home.
- 23:28Speaker 1: She was also taken to Harbor View by helicopter, but
- 23:31Speaker 1: tragically died, But this time pathologists had a clue. They
- 23:38Speaker 1: could smell bitter almonds during the autopsy, so tested for
- 23:42Speaker 1: cyanide poisoning. Soon, the FDA announced that cyanide laced extra
- 23:47Speaker 1: strength in cedron capsules had been found in her home.
- 23:52Speaker 1: The FBI was notified and at that point they took
- 23:55Speaker 1: over the investigation. So, just like in nineteen eighty two
- 23:58Speaker 1: with the Tail and all deaths, the Bristol Myers company
- 24:01Speaker 1: initiated a nationwide recall of the drug and halted production.
- 24:06Speaker 1: At this point, the drug manufacturing conglomerate was also really alarmed,
- 24:12Speaker 1: so they banded together to offer a three thousand dollars
- 24:17Speaker 1: three thousand, three hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, three thousand's not
- 24:20Speaker 1: that much.
- 24:21Speaker 2: I don't remember. I didn't realize the price difference.
- 24:26Speaker 1: Yeah, inflation really is no three hundred thousand dollars. So, uh, Jody,
- 24:32Speaker 1: what is in nineteen eighty six three hundred thousand dollars?
- 24:36Speaker 2: What would that be today? That's got to be at
- 24:39Speaker 2: least double, if not morking now, maybe more like a
- 24:42Speaker 2: million dollars. Oh, very close.
- 24:45Speaker 1: Eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars, That's what I'm gonna guess.
- 24:48Speaker 2: Are you serious? But it's eight hundred and eighty six
- 24:51Speaker 2: thousand dollars, seven hundred and ninety five. I'm good. I
- 24:55Speaker 2: guess it. That is real good. You were off by
- 24:58Speaker 2: thirty six thousand, seven ninety five dollars and sixty two cents.
- 25:04Speaker 1: So specific all right. So a sweep of grocery and
- 25:09Speaker 1: pharmacy shelves in King County produced another bottle of tainted
- 25:13Speaker 1: pills from Johnny's Market in Kent. So this was put
- 25:17Speaker 1: out on the news. You know, don't take etctern throw
- 25:21Speaker 1: it out. And the next day, Bruce Nichols's widow, Stella,
- 25:24Speaker 1: called the FBI to tell them that she too had
- 25:27Speaker 1: bottles of etceterron and that Bruce had taken some right
- 25:31Speaker 1: before collapsing. When investigators showed up at her home to
- 25:34Speaker 1: collect the bottle, she produced two bottles, saying that she
- 25:38Speaker 1: had purchased them on two occasions from two different locations.
- 25:43Speaker 1: Both bottles contained tainted capsules.
- 25:46Speaker 2: Whoa.
- 25:47Speaker 1: Blood tests showed that Bruce, like SEUs Snow, had died
- 25:51Speaker 1: from cyanide poisoning. And by the way, I've just got
- 25:54Speaker 1: to insert something here. So one of these articles I
- 25:57Speaker 1: read it said one of Stella's neighbors character rised her
- 26:00Speaker 1: as a washed up honky tonk girl.
- 26:03Speaker 3: Oh my god, so picture a burn, so this was suspicious.
- 26:14Speaker 1: It's pretty unlikely that she could have purchased two contaminated
- 26:18Speaker 1: bottles from two different locations, given that there were only
- 26:22Speaker 1: four known four or five by the end of this
- 26:24Speaker 1: known contaminated bottles. One more tainted bottle was found a
- 26:29Speaker 1: bottle of a Nassin three in the same store that
- 26:33Speaker 1: she had bought one of her bottles of etceterron, so
- 26:35Speaker 1: a different brand, but same store that she had bought
- 26:39Speaker 1: this extceterron from. So although investigators were suspicious of Stella,
- 26:43Speaker 1: they needed more evidence. They were also suspicious of Sue
- 26:47Speaker 1: Snow's husband, Paul Webking, as he claimed to have taken
- 26:51Speaker 1: two pills from the same bottle as Sue when he
- 26:54Speaker 1: left for work, but he was fine. Both Stella and
- 26:58Speaker 1: Paul Webking brought wrongful death lawsuits against Bristol Myers. Now
- 27:03Speaker 1: When examining the cyanide powder in the poison bottles, they
- 27:06Speaker 1: found these flecks of some unknown green substance, and it
- 27:12Speaker 1: turns out that it was an algaeicide called algae Destroyer,
- 27:16Speaker 1: which is used in home aquariums to you know, help
- 27:20Speaker 1: with algae problems. Now, knowing that the deaths were now
- 27:25Speaker 1: characterized as murder. Investigators turned their attention to their two
- 27:29Speaker 1: prime suspects, Paul Webking and Stella Nickel. Both were asked
- 27:34Speaker 1: to take polygraph tests, which Paul agreed to, but Stella
- 27:38Speaker 1: was a bit more cagey. She had started drinking heavily
- 27:42Speaker 1: after Bruce's death, and she said she was too shaken
- 27:45Speaker 1: up to take the test.
- 27:47Speaker 2: Well, drinking also will make it, so it's not an
- 27:50Speaker 2: accurate test. I mean as accurate as it already is, right,
- 27:53Speaker 2: but I mean it will impact those physiological things. So
- 27:56Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it would have changed anything. But
- 27:58Speaker 2: it is suspicious when people say nope, I don't want
- 28:00Speaker 2: to do it.
- 28:01Speaker 1: Well, no, I don't actually think it. It is well
- 28:04Speaker 1: maybe back then, but today not agree to a polygraph
- 28:08Speaker 1: test ever.
- 28:08Speaker 2: Well, I have actually taken one for a case. I
- 28:11Speaker 2: was not the accused. I was the victim, and when
- 28:15Speaker 2: I gave my testimony, it said that I was not
- 28:20Speaker 2: truthful and I was telling the truth should never and
- 28:24Speaker 2: I was not the one accused. So it's like I
- 28:27Speaker 2: didn't have much to Yeah, and there were certain sections
- 28:30Speaker 2: I think really what it was I'd put myself in
- 28:32Speaker 2: a position to be a victim and so I felt
- 28:36Speaker 2: guilty about that, and so it was coming across on
- 28:39Speaker 2: the machine that I was not being truthful about the case.
- 28:43Speaker 2: That makes sense. It's not reading, it's not picking up
- 28:47Speaker 2: the right story. Yeah, it's there is a physiological change,
- 28:51Speaker 2: but it's not what you think. No, don't.
- 28:54Speaker 1: Yeah, I've watched enough true crime to not do not
- 28:57Speaker 1: if you, yeah, don't ever take a polygraph test. It's
- 29:00Speaker 1: junk science. It's not admissible in court, but it can
- 29:03Speaker 1: certainly taint the investigation. And if people are like, if
- 29:05Speaker 1: you're not, if you're innocent, why wouldn't you take a
- 29:08Speaker 1: polygraph test, It's like, because they fail all the time.
- 29:11Speaker 1: It's junk science. I'm not going to do it anyway.
- 29:15Speaker 1: That's either here nor there. So with more digging, detectives
- 29:18Speaker 1: turned up incriminating evidence against Stella. Prior to the death
- 29:23Speaker 1: of her husband, Bruce, she had taken out a seventy
- 29:26Speaker 1: six thousand dollars life insurance policy on her husband, and
- 29:29Speaker 1: here's the kicker, it paid out an additional one hundred
- 29:33Speaker 1: thousand dollars if the death was accidental. So even before
- 29:39Speaker 1: Sue Snow died and gave investigators some idea that the
- 29:43Speaker 1: deaths were linked. Stella insisted that Bruce's death was suspicious,
- 29:49Speaker 1: he had no history of inmphysima. And then detectives found
- 29:53Speaker 1: two insurance policies with Bruce's forged signature. And what about
- 29:59Speaker 1: the flex of algaecide in the cyanide? Well, Stella had
- 30:02Speaker 1: an aquarium. Now, she insisted up and down that she
- 30:05Speaker 1: had never purchased an algaecide, But investigators talked to the
- 30:09Speaker 1: owner of the local pet store who said that Stella
- 30:12Speaker 1: had ordered such a large amount of algae destroyer that
- 30:15Speaker 1: he had to make a special order for it. Yes,
- 30:18Speaker 1: so it was speculated that Stella used the same container
- 30:22Speaker 1: to crush the algaecide as she did to crush the cyanide,
- 30:25Speaker 1: hence the contamination. Now, Stella finally consented to a polygraph
- 30:30Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six, but failed. However, as we all know,
- 30:34Speaker 1: polygraphs are junk science, so that means the thing they
- 30:38Speaker 1: couldn't prove that she had purchased the cyanide or tained
- 30:41Speaker 1: to the capsules, even though there were those suspicious insurance policies.
- 30:47Speaker 1: But finally, in nineteen eighty seven, something crazy happened that
- 30:52Speaker 1: broke the case. Don't doudge Me, which we will get
- 30:56Speaker 1: into right after this quick break back to nineteen eighty seven,
- 31:10Speaker 1: Stella's grown daughter, Cynthia, went to the police with information
- 31:15Speaker 1: about her mother. Now little history. Stella and Bruce both
- 31:19Speaker 1: had checkered backgrounds. Stella had her first child, Cynthia, at
- 31:24Speaker 1: the age of sixteen. Not long after, she became pregnant
- 31:27Speaker 1: with a second child by a different man, and knowing
- 31:30Speaker 1: that it would be tough to attract a husband with
- 31:33Speaker 1: two kids from two different fathers, she gave up the
- 31:37Speaker 1: new baby for adoption.
- 31:39Speaker 2: She was for that reason, so that she could attract
- 31:41Speaker 2: a man in the future. Oh my golly.
- 31:45Speaker 1: Now, according to her children and other people who knew her,
- 31:50Speaker 1: she was a neglectful and sometimes cruel mother to Cynthia.
- 31:55Speaker 1: When Cynthia was nine, Stella beat her legs with a
- 31:58Speaker 1: curtain rod, and when Cynthia reported her to the police,
- 32:01Speaker 1: she claimed that the child was lying. At one point,
- 32:04Speaker 1: she just abandoned her child to one of her husbands.
- 32:09Speaker 2: She's a lovely lady. Yeah, she's great.
- 32:12Speaker 1: So she spent a lot of time not actually having
- 32:14Speaker 1: Cynthia in her life. Stella also, yeah, they weren't close.
- 32:19Speaker 1: It wasn't until Cynthia was a teenager that she actually
- 32:22Speaker 1: went back to live with her mother. She had a
- 32:24Speaker 1: long history of fraud, forgery, and drinking. So she met
- 32:28Speaker 1: Bruce in nineteen seventy four and they bonded over going
- 32:32Speaker 1: to bars. When Bruce decided to get sober some ten
- 32:36Speaker 1: years later, Stella found herself bored with the marriage. They
- 32:40Speaker 1: used to have so much fun together going to bars. Yeah,
- 32:42Speaker 1: now they had nothing in common, and her own drinking
- 32:46Speaker 1: became much worse.
- 32:48Speaker 2: She picked up what he dropped off.
- 32:50Speaker 1: Exactly according to Cynthia, Stella told her that if Bruce
- 32:55Speaker 1: was out of the picture, she and Cynthia would have
- 32:58Speaker 1: enough money to open a tropical fish store or maybe
- 33:01Speaker 1: a ceramics store.
- 33:02Speaker 2: I mean, why don't she have all these algae or
- 33:06Speaker 2: aquarium supplies yet? She Oh, my god, but want store
- 33:11Speaker 2: opened a tropical fish store, right, But no, I don't.
- 33:13Speaker 2: I would never order that. That's great.
- 33:16Speaker 1: So she checked out several books from the Auburn Library
- 33:19Speaker 1: that included information about poisonous plants. She even confided to
- 33:23Speaker 1: Cynthia that she had tried to poison Bruce in the
- 33:26Speaker 1: past with fox glove hidden in capsules, but all that
- 33:31Speaker 1: happened is he got suddenly very sleepy. Records from the
- 33:37Speaker 1: Auburn Public Library showed that Stella had checked out several
- 33:40Speaker 1: books about poisons, including human poisonings from Native and cultivated
- 33:44Speaker 1: plants and Deadly Harvest. That should be a book that exists.
- 33:48Speaker 1: I know, That's what I like. Anybody who checks that out,
- 33:52Speaker 1: you should be suspicious. How to kill people with what's
- 33:55Speaker 1: in your yard?
- 33:57Speaker 2: Right? That sound like a terrible book.
- 34:02Speaker 1: Well, the other thing is she'd never returned the book
- 34:04Speaker 1: to the library.
- 34:05Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
- 34:06Speaker 1: And Stella's fingerprints were found on several books she had
- 34:10Speaker 1: checked out, and she had also left fingerprints and palm
- 34:13Speaker 1: prints on entries about cyanide poisoning in three encyclopedias at
- 34:17Speaker 1: the library.
- 34:17Speaker 2: This woman was meant to commit crime. Clearly she was
- 34:21Speaker 2: meant to get caught. Yeah.
- 34:24Speaker 1: Stella was indicted in federal court and found guilty of
- 34:27Speaker 1: product tampering, not murder.
- 34:30Speaker 2: WHOA and was sentenced to ninety years in prison just
- 34:34Speaker 2: from product tampering. I think it was product tampering that
- 34:36Speaker 2: caused death, was the sentencing. Yeah, okay, and we'll get
- 34:40Speaker 2: we'll get to that. So not murder, but kinda.
- 34:43Speaker 1: Yeah, her own daughter, Cynthia, was a star witness against
- 34:46Speaker 1: her own mother, and she received two hundred and fifty
- 34:50Speaker 1: thousand dollars of the Drug Industry Award.
- 34:53Speaker 2: Oh wow.
- 34:54Speaker 1: Now, this of course led to some speculation that perhaps
- 34:57Speaker 1: it was a conspiracy between Cynthia and Stella to get
- 35:01Speaker 1: that money, but that was never verified.
- 35:04Speaker 2: I mean, why would you have a conspiracy where you
- 35:06Speaker 2: go to prison? Right now?
- 35:08Speaker 1: Stella maintained her innocence, insisting that her daughter lied on
- 35:12Speaker 1: the stand in exchange for the reward money. Now, I
- 35:15Speaker 1: mean I think Stella, I mean, Stella is obviously guilty, yeah,
- 35:21Speaker 1: but do I also think that maybe this woman who
- 35:26Speaker 1: was raised by somebody who has a is not an
- 35:29Speaker 1: honest person, could have maybe come forward to capitalize.
- 35:33Speaker 2: On that sure genetics and environment, yeah, provided by her mother,
- 35:39Speaker 2: right either.
- 35:40Speaker 1: So I don't know, but yeah, it is Stella did this,
- 35:45Speaker 1: I mean allegedly. No, she was convicted of it.
- 35:47Speaker 2: She didn't, right, No, no longer a legend. So over the.
- 35:51Speaker 1: Years, she's filed multiple appeals and even petitioned for compassionate release,
- 35:56Speaker 1: but all have been denied, so she remains incarcerated at
- 35:59Speaker 1: FCI Hazelton in West Virginia with a projected release date
- 36:02Speaker 1: of March seventh, twenty forty three.
- 36:05Speaker 2: Wow, twenty forty three, so that's yeah, seventy years then
- 36:10Speaker 2: ish before she can even seek release. That's crazy. Well good,
- 36:16Speaker 2: twenty forty three now less than less than twenty years.
- 36:19Speaker 2: No from nineteen eighty seven.
- 36:22Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Both the Thailand al murders and the Exceeddron
- 36:25Speaker 1: poisonings had a profound impact on product safety regulations and
- 36:28Speaker 1: how tampering cases are handled in the United States. Before
- 36:32Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, over the counter medications like Thailand or
- 36:35Speaker 1: Exceedron were packaged, like I said, in simple plastic bottles,
- 36:39Speaker 1: often with nothing more than a thin cardboard box and
- 36:41Speaker 1: a water cotton stuffed inside the neck of the bottle
- 36:43Speaker 1: to protect earpills.
- 36:45Speaker 2: There were no.
- 36:45Speaker 1: Seals, no shrink wrap, no real way to know if
- 36:48Speaker 1: a product had been opened or altered. You know, it's interesting,
- 36:52Speaker 1: we've become so used to this, Like all our products, toothpaste,
- 36:55Speaker 1: whatever it is, anything that we're going to put in
- 36:58Speaker 1: our body or on our body, have some sort of seal,
- 37:01Speaker 1: right that when it doesn't, you are immediately suspicious. And
- 37:06Speaker 1: I ordered a bunch of stuff from Korea and they
- 37:09Speaker 1: just have different product packaging regulations. And when I got
- 37:13Speaker 1: the products and they didn't have that little foil seal
- 37:15Speaker 1: over the the like skincare product thing, I was like
- 37:20Speaker 1: And then I got online and read and they're like, yeah,
- 37:22Speaker 1: they just don't do that with this brand. And I'm like, Okay,
- 37:26Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna take the chance of rubbing. But
- 37:28Speaker 1: Arsenic come so far, so good.
- 37:31Speaker 2: I'm fine. I mean, look at this, Look at this skin. Yeah,
- 37:34Speaker 2: you can definitely tell you've been using Korean skincare.
- 37:39Speaker 1: All of this changed after the Thailand All Murders. Working
- 37:43Speaker 1: with the FDA, Johnson and Johnson pioneered tamper evident packaging,
- 37:47Speaker 1: introducing foil seals, shrink bands, and other security features that
- 37:51Speaker 1: made it immediately obvious if a product had been opened.
- 37:55Speaker 1: The company also redesigned its capsules to make them more
- 37:58Speaker 1: resistant to tampering. These innovations quickly became the industry's standard,
- 38:03Speaker 1: and in nineteen eighty three, Congress passed the Federal Anti
- 38:08Speaker 1: Tampering Act, better known as the Tailanyl Bill, making it
- 38:11Speaker 1: a federal crime to tamper with consumer products. This new
- 38:16Speaker 1: law gave federal authorities the power to investigate and prosecute
- 38:19Speaker 1: such crimes, carrying penalties of up to life in prison
- 38:23Speaker 1: if deaths occurred. So when Stella Nicol placed cyanide laced
- 38:27Speaker 1: eccedrin capsules on store shelves in nineteen eighty six, prosecutors
- 38:31Speaker 1: used this very law to bring her to justice. The
- 38:34Speaker 1: Tailanyl build allowed federal jurisdiction over her case and made
- 38:38Speaker 1: the product tampering resulting in death a serious federal offense.
- 38:42Speaker 1: It was one of the first major tests of the
- 38:44Speaker 1: law and set the standard for how similar cases would
- 38:47Speaker 1: be handled in the future. And thanks to these tragedies
- 38:50Speaker 1: and the lessons learned from them, today's consumers can buy
- 38:53Speaker 1: medications with far greater confidence in their safety. Foil seals,
- 38:58Speaker 1: shrink wraps, and safety caps might seem like a small annoyances,
- 39:02Speaker 1: but they exist because people once really did have reason
- 39:06Speaker 1: to fear what was in the bottle.
- 39:08Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember, because I was, like, you know, eighty six,
- 39:10Speaker 2: I was fourteen ish. That is terrifying to think that
- 39:15Speaker 2: you could go pick up this bottle at the store
- 39:18Speaker 2: in a box, take it home and somebody's tampered with it.
- 39:21Speaker 2: So it was scary.
- 39:22Speaker 1: And while today tail and all and asked me to Oh, no,
- 39:26Speaker 1: I did it.
- 39:28Speaker 2: I see Amitavan It's because you got you got autism
- 39:31Speaker 2: from taking it.
- 39:32Speaker 1: I did well today, Thailand all, And.
- 39:39Speaker 2: I can't say it all. I'm just ceda menaphon. I'll
- 39:43Speaker 2: do it for you. You say, Thailand, I'll say.
- 39:47Speaker 1: And while today, tail and All and a Ceda medafin
- 39:50Speaker 1: are being demonized in some corners of the Internet and
- 39:54Speaker 1: the press, despite the flimsiest of despite the flimsiest of evidence,
- 40:00Speaker 1: because like, who needs facts anymore? Right, sciences for krommies.
- 40:05Speaker 2: I just feel like it. You know. That's vibes, Yeah,
- 40:08Speaker 2: that's vibes.
- 40:09Speaker 1: There was a brief moment in the nineteen eighties when
- 40:11Speaker 1: that fear was actually kind of justified a little bit.
- 40:15Speaker 1: For a few terrifying years, reaching for a bottle of
- 40:18Speaker 1: painkillers really could end all your pain forever.
- 40:23Speaker 2: Bom bom boom.
- 40:25Speaker 1: Definitely Okay, And so if you guys haven't guessed yet,
- 40:28Speaker 1: this was my shameless attempt to take advantage of the headlines.
- 40:34Speaker 2: You're welcome, nice work. Well, I mean it is a
- 40:39Speaker 2: hot topic right now, so well, and it does have
- 40:42Speaker 2: link to where we live, I mean, right, now we
- 40:45Speaker 2: are literally sitting probably fifteen minutes away from where this happened.
- 40:49Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Auburn ones not Chicago obviously. So this
- 40:53Speaker 1: is one of those things. If you're a true crime
- 40:55Speaker 1: nut and you live in the Pacific Northwest, you know
- 40:58Speaker 1: this story like you saw you you like knew immediately.
- 41:01Speaker 2: I knew immediately. I forgot it was Aburn though, Yeah,
- 41:04Speaker 2: right here, because at the time I lived farther away
- 41:07Speaker 2: from Auburn.
- 41:08Speaker 1: You guys probably have been to the same bars that
- 41:10Speaker 1: Stella Nickel has been to.
- 41:12Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll have to talk about yeah.
- 41:14Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to figure that out.
- 41:15Speaker 2: Yeah.
- 41:16Speaker 1: So I want to thank all of our Dedicade listeners.
- 41:18Speaker 1: We appreciate you so much, and thank you to our
- 41:20Speaker 1: amazing patrons, You guys rock. And a big thank you
- 41:24Speaker 1: to our new amazing marketing team, the incredible Letha Davis,
- 41:28Speaker 1: who is responsible for a beautiful new website, and the
- 41:31Speaker 1: talented Coral and Logan Hine who have been making some
- 41:34Speaker 1: killer videos for our YouTube and social media. And if
- 41:38Speaker 1: you want a website as gorgeous as ours or some
- 41:40Speaker 1: great social media content, head on over to LEITHA. Davis
- 41:44Speaker 1: dot com. That's l. E. T. H. A D A
- 41:47Speaker 1: v I s and reach out to Letha. This website
- 41:50Speaker 1: design is mind bogglingly good, especially for podcasters.
- 41:54Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. She is so talented.
- 41:57Speaker 1: I don't even to understand how she made this happen.
- 42:00Speaker 1: It's full of all these automations and like AI tools
- 42:03Speaker 1: that you just like copy and paste a couple of things,
- 42:08Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you have this beautiful,
- 42:11Speaker 1: this beautiful post for your episode up there.
- 42:13Speaker 2: I just I don't know what happened the player embedded
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- 42:34Speaker 1: Head on over to Rainy Day rabbit Holes dot com,
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- 42:46Speaker 1: a radio review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Really makes
- 42:49Speaker 1: us feel great to hear kind words from you. If
- 42:52Speaker 1: you comment on our YouTube. Maybe say something nice.
- 42:56Speaker 2: It's funny here.
- 42:57Speaker 1: Guess what.
- 42:58Speaker 2: I delete the the crappy comments because I don't like
- 43:02Speaker 2: seeing them. It makes me feel bad. She feels like
- 43:07Speaker 2: there's people pointing at her, yelling shame, shame.
- 43:11Speaker 1: Look, I will shame myself enough. I don't need you
- 43:15Speaker 1: to do it too. If you don't have something remember,
- 43:17Speaker 1: if you don't have something nice to say, don't say
- 43:19Speaker 1: anything at all. Keep it till your sale, all right, guys, Well,
- 43:23Speaker 1: thank you so much. We'll see you next time and
- 43:27Speaker 1: see it a ravel perfect