Latest / The SME Stream / Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader discusses a capital gains tax, cost of living, UK visit

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Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader discusses a capital gains tax, cost of living, UK visit · The SME Stream

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Chris Hipkins is in Liverpool for the UK Labor Party Conference.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It comes as the party back in New Zealand looks
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: at a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, or
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: potentially both, this while their British Counts parts are being
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: absolutely hammered in the polls at the moment over a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: series of what you could call gaffs and also spending scandals.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Chris is with us this morning, Chris, what have you
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  Speaker 1: learned over there? Stars down in the poles. He's cutting
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: winter energy payments. Things aren't looking good for him.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Oh and there's interesting challenges here that are similar to
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  Speaker 2: New Zealand, and there's challenges that are different. I guess so,
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  Speaker 2: I mean the similarities cost of living, crist is clearly
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  Speaker 2: still a big issue here, as it is still a
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  Speaker 2: big issue in New Zealand, issues around technic climate change
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and sustainability and the kind of the bigger question of
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: how do you grow an economy that on a per
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: capita basis has been stagnant? You know, these are similar
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: issues and similar challenges that we face in New Zealand.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Did you bond over your mutual drop in the polls?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Look at early days with them, they have the luxury
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: of a five year term, so he doesn't have to
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: go back to the polls for another five years. So
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I think at this point, you know, they're just focused
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: on doing the early things they need to do in government.
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  Speaker 1: You have to go back to the polls in twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty six. Will you be the leader?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely?
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  Speaker 1: You want to be You want the job absolutely.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: And you know, coming away here and looking at the
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: some talking to people about ideas about how we can
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: actually move New Zealand forward, it's actually left me even
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: more energized. I think there are some big challenges in
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: New Zealand. They're going to require some fresh thinking and
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: some new ideas. I'm taking the time to make sure
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: we generate those new ideas that are twenty twenty six
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  Speaker 2: elections not going to be a rerun of the twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty three election. And you know, we've got to be
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  Speaker 2: focused on the future.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about a couple of his ideas and see
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  Speaker 1: whether you're into them or not. We can quick fire these.
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  Speaker 1: He wants long term sickness beneficiaries to start looking for work.
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  Speaker 1: Good idea, bad idea.
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  Speaker 2: Oh look, I don't want to get into discussing UK politics,
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  Speaker 2: so if you want to ask me about things in
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  Speaker 2: the New Zealand context and New Zealand policy, all.
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  Speaker 1: Right about in New Zealand.
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  Speaker 2: In New Zealand, I don't want to provide a commentary.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to provide it.
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  Speaker 1: No fair enough in New Zealand. In New Zealand, would
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  Speaker 1: you be on board with long term sickness beneficiaries having
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  Speaker 1: to look for work?
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  Speaker 2: No? I think I've got a system in place at
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  Speaker 2: the moment that sets out clear expectations around long terms.
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  Speaker 2: There's beneficiaries and then I'm quite comfortable with.
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  Speaker 1: That they have a limit there. And again this is
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  Speaker 1: a New Zealand question. Would we limit a child benefit
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  Speaker 1: allowance to two kids max?
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  Speaker 2: No? And I wouldn't support that.
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  Speaker 1: Would you reduce the window energy payment to help pay
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  Speaker 1: the bills, the government's bills?
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  Speaker 2: No. I mean there's a different issue over here in
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  Speaker 2: the sense that it was a universal entitlement over here,
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  Speaker 2: whereas it's not in New Zealand.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the capital
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  Speaker 1: gains tax, the wealth tax. A lot of news in
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  Speaker 1: New Zealand about that. Antonia So the head of the
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  Speaker 1: a Z Bank has said that she thinks we need
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  Speaker 1: some sort of capital gains tax. Can you just clarify
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  Speaker 1: for people? Would that cover the family home? If I
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  Speaker 1: for your family who's saved up your mortgage free, you've
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: got a rental property, would you ever be hit by
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  Speaker 1: either of these?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be happy with taxing a family home
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  Speaker 2: and gains on a family home, And the other questions
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  Speaker 2: really are hypothetical because you know, we haven't committed to
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  Speaker 2: a particular form of capital gains taxation. But I think
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  Speaker 2: what we've got to acknowledge is at the moment, the
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  Speaker 2: New Zealand tax system is loaded against working people. Working
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  Speaker 2: people end up paying more tax because we're not kept
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  Speaker 2: taxing other forms of income. And as our other comparable
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  Speaker 2: countries do. There's capital gain stack here and the UK.
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  Speaker 2: There is capital gain stacks in Australia and so many
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  Speaker 2: other countries that there isn't in New Zealand. And what
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  Speaker 2: does that mean? It means that salary and wagering is
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  Speaker 2: the people who work hard every day for a living
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  Speaker 2: end up paying a disproportionate share of the tax because
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  Speaker 2: we're not taxing other forms of income.
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  Speaker 1: So this is not about solving the housing crisis. For you,
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  Speaker 1: a capital gains tax. It's about fairness, it's both of it.
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  Speaker 2: It's about both things. I mean, I think we do have.
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  Speaker 1: The Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group has said
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  Speaker 1: that it wouldn't solve the housing crisis, it wouldn't help
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: to bring prices down.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to look at that. There's
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  Speaker 2: a range of things that have led to people to
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  Speaker 2: New Zealanders putting money into the property market instead of
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  Speaker 2: other forms of productive investment. Taxation is only one of
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  Speaker 2: the things that you've got to look at there. You've
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  Speaker 2: got to look at a range of other things as well.
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  Speaker 2: Idently don't think, you know taxing income from capital capital
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  Speaker 2: gains on property, for example, would hurt the housing crisis.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's likely to be helpful, but it's not
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  Speaker 2: going to be a solution. There's no one thing that's
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  Speaker 2: going to solve the housing crisis in New Zealand. That's
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  Speaker 2: going to require a range of different things.
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  Speaker 1: In the UK, they've got a capital gains tax, I've
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  Speaker 1: got an inheritance tax. Look at the state of their NHS.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't your bigger problem convincing keyways that if you do
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  Speaker 1: do a tax we will actually get some benefit from it.
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  Speaker 2: But we've got to make sure that New Zealanders see
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  Speaker 2: the benefit of any changes that we would make to
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  Speaker 2: the tax system. They've got to see what's in it
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  Speaker 2: for them.
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  Speaker 1: Stats n Z put out the General Social Survey yesterday.
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  Speaker 1: This is for twenty twenty three, so this is when
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  Speaker 1: you guys were in office twenty twenty one to twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty three. Trust and the health system down, education down,
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  Speaker 1: Parliament down, police down, courts down, people's sense of belonging down.
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  Speaker 1: Do you take some responsibility for those numbers.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, but we've got to recognize that those numbers
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  Speaker 2: were on were record highs just three years ago, during
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  Speaker 2: the COVID nineteen pandemic. We saw record levels of trust
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  Speaker 2: and confidence in government, and now they're coming back down
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  Speaker 2: to more like the levels that they were before the pandemic.
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  Speaker 1: So you're saying that this is actually a good thing
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  Speaker 1: or a normal thing.
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  Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'd love to see those numbers
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  Speaker 2: stay higher. I think we've actually got to work really
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  Speaker 2: hard to make sure that our democratic institutions are ones
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  Speaker 2: that inspire confidence and trust from the New Zealand public.
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  Speaker 2: I think they are taking a bit of a knock
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  Speaker 2: in recent years. I think we do need to take
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: that seriously as politicians. We need to make sure that
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  Speaker 2: we're making the changes to the way our democratic system
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: operates so that we're increasing public trust and confidence.
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  Speaker 1: Is anyone doing the numbers against you and the Labor Party.
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  Speaker 2: To be No, absolutely not, absolutely not that I'm absolutely
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  Speaker 2: confident that I have the full support of the Labor team.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, the nuclear free moment, obviously it's been well for
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  Speaker 1: five six years now since just Cindra Durn's proclamation. We've
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  Speaker 1: now had in the last twenty four hours Todd Energy
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  Speaker 1: come out and join the likes of method X and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: OG and Windstone, and they are making cuts at Todd Energy,
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  Speaker 1: which is hugely concerning. Do you concede that what you
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: did with the offshore oil and Gas band has had
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  Speaker 1: an impact on investment here and it is costing jobs,
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  Speaker 1: good regional union jobs.
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  Speaker 2: No, absolutely not to totally reject that rhyme and the facts
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  Speaker 2: actually say otherwise. I mean that's been from the oil
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  Speaker 2: and gas industry for the reality here as we haven't
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  Speaker 2: had a significant oil and gas fine in New Zealands
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  Speaker 2: of two thousands and what the Oil and Guests Band's
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  Speaker 2: only been in place for the last five years. So
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: if there was a ready supply of oil and gas there,
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  Speaker 2: they would have found it by now.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know that, do we. I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: mean you don't know what you don't know, And the
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  Speaker 1: fact is if you ban it, you'll never know.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's still a lot of offshore oil and gas
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  Speaker 2: exploration permits that are active now. They could be out
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  Speaker 2: there exploring now, even because we didn't cancel any of
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  Speaker 2: the permits that were in place when the band was
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  Speaker 2: put in place. They chose not to do that.
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  Speaker 1: So you're saying that when method X, when these companies
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  Speaker 1: put out press releases and they've sent me statements partly
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  Speaker 1: blaming your ban on offshore oil and gas exploration for
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  Speaker 1: a dampening and investment, they're making it up. It's so it's.
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  Speaker 2: Always easier to blame that. It's always easier to blame
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  Speaker 2: the government when companies have to make some difficult decisions.
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  Speaker 2: But the reality is New Zealand's future should be focused
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  Speaker 2: on renewable energy. It's cheaper, it's going to be better
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  Speaker 2: for New Zealand business because of New Zealand businesses paying
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: lower power prices, they're going to be more competitive. Fossil
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  Speaker 2: fuels are more expensive than renewable fills. The thing that
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: houses our electricity prices to go up is not the
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: cost of renewable and it's the cost of fossil fuels.
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  Speaker 1: Just finally, you might have seen I mean, I'm sure
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: you've been keeping abreast of politics here, but Chris Luxen
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  Speaker 1: has had a oh he's had a few I don't
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: want to say tanties, but he's had a few run
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  Speaker 1: ins with the media. What do you make of his
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: performance this week?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I mean, I think Christopher Luxel said
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  Speaker 2: that he's setting all these targets so that the public
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  Speaker 2: can hold him accountable for the government's performance. And now
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  Speaker 2: that the targets are actually showing that the government's performance
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: is getting worse, he's say, we'll forget about the targets.
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  Speaker 2: Stop questioning me on them. I mean, he's contradicting himself.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if he wants to set targets and say
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: hold me accountable for the targets, he's got to be
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: prepared to be questioned on them.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: How long did you get in a meeting with Starma.
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  Speaker 2: It was a relatively brief meeting. We were meeting for
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: you know, it was a meeting between meetings for both
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: of us, so we've got to about ten minutes. I suppose,
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  Speaker 2: had a good sit down with Angel Rain as the
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  Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister over here for about half an hour,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: and I've meeting with plenty of other laboringmps as well.
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  Speaker 1: That was Chris Hopkins, the Labor leader over in Liverpool
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  Speaker 1: for the UK Party conference there