Latest / Pod Save America / Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility

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Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility · Pod Save America

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  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I am Alex Wagner.
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  Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk's assassination deepened an already extraordinary political divide. Members
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: of both parties condemned the killing and they mourned Kirk's death,
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  Speaker 3: regardless of whether they agreed with his politics. But Republicans
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: quickly turned that tragedy into an attack line. They flooded
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  Speaker 3: social media and And they accused Democrats of celebrating Charlie
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Kirk's death, even though no elected Democrat actually did that.
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  Speaker 2: Vice President J.D.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Vance urged Americans not just to call out people celebrating
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk's death, but to report them to their employers.
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  Speaker 3: And Vance capped that off with a plea for civility.
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  Speaker 1: We don't believe in political violence, but we do believe
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: in civility. And there is no civility in the celebration
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: of political assassinations.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: A call for civility while masked ICE agents racially profile
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: and detain people in unmarked vans. A call for civility
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: while the National Guard patrols some of America's most densely
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  Speaker 3: populated cities under the guise of fighting crime.
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  Speaker 2: A call for civility.
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  Speaker 3: After the President of the United States directed 800 or
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  Speaker 3: so of his top generals to focus on what he
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  Speaker 3: now calls, quote, the war from within. How can we
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  Speaker 3: be civil here when the politics... are so violent? Writer
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  Speaker 3: Roxane Gay has an answer.
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  Speaker 2: We can't.
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  Speaker 3: She argues that civility in a country where one party
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  Speaker 3: is working to erase the rights of anyone who doesn't
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  Speaker 3: fit into a narrow and predominantly white, male, conservative vision
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  Speaker 3: of America, that that is a fantasy. This week, we're
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: going to dive into her analysis, the myth of civility,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: the government shutdown, feminism in the red pill apocalypse, and
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  Speaker 3: a lot more. Here's my conversation with Roxane Gay. First
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  Speaker 3: of all, thank you for doing this. It's great to
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: have the, well, it's great to get some time from
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: you to talk about the state of the world. I
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: guess I want to start, Professor Gray, Roxane, with.
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  Speaker 2: The article that you wrote in the New.
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  Speaker 3: A few weeks ago about the myth of civility in
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  Speaker 3: American politics. Maybe you can start by explaining what civility
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  Speaker 3: is in your estimation and why it's a fantasy.
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  Speaker 4: Well, there are unfortunately multiple definitions for civility, but when
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  Speaker 4: it's used in sociopolitical discourse, most often it means don't
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  Speaker 4: get too excited, don't get too angry, don't be too hurt.
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  Speaker 4: This is all an intellectual exercise. Don't step out of line.
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  Speaker 4: Don't do what your opposition perceives as harm. And that
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  Speaker 4: harm really is oftentimes about their egos. And don't make
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  Speaker 4: me feel complicit in whatever's happening in our world. Don't
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  Speaker 4: make me feel I've done something wrong. Don't make me
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  Speaker 4: feel ashamed, as if we have any control over that,
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  Speaker 4: which we don't. And it's really unfortunate because it compromises
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  Speaker 4: honest and productive conversations, and it's always used as a weapon.
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  Speaker 4: Look at this lack of civility. And when you look
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  Speaker 4: at the current state of the world, which is such
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  Speaker 4: an inadequate phrase, you can see that what is uncivil
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: is ice. terrorizing an apartment building in Chicago in the
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: middle of the night and taking people from their beds.
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  Speaker 4: That's uncivil. And so talking about it is not uncivil.
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  Speaker 4: And I think it's really important for any of us
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  Speaker 4: with sanity left to be very clear about that distinction.
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  Speaker 3: When you talk about the people who believe in the
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  Speaker 3: possibility of civility at this moment, are they sort of
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  Speaker 3: more simply put, just people who don't understand oppression and
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  Speaker 3: haven't experienced it firsthand?
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  Speaker 4: For the most part, yes, because most of the people
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  Speaker 4: who call for civility happen to be, I don't know
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  Speaker 4: if it's coincidence or not, heterosexual, middle or upper middle class,
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  Speaker 4: well-educated white men. And they oftentimes have some kind of power,
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  Speaker 4: whether it's platform or political power, elected office, et cetera.
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  Speaker 4: And so for them, You know, it really does offend
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  Speaker 4: their delicate sensibilities when you push them out of their
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  Speaker 4: comfort zone and force them to confront their inadequacies. They
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  Speaker 4: cannot tolerate it. And it's so interesting that the right
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  Speaker 4: came up with the phrase, not the phrase, the word
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  Speaker 4: snowflakes to represent people who dare to challenge the status quo.
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  Speaker 4: There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power.
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  Speaker 4: And it's really quite interesting to see. Like they really
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: are the ones who are craving safe space because when
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  Speaker 4: you call for civility in that manner, you are saying,
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  Speaker 4: I don't feel safe. And I need you to take
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  Speaker 4: it upon yourself to do whatever you have to do
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  Speaker 4: to make me feel safe. And it's such a level
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  Speaker 4: of privilege. It is such a level of privilege.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they're so threatened by criticism that they
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  Speaker 3: have to take the TV shows off the air. They're
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  Speaker 3: so threatened by criticism in the form of the judicial
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  Speaker 3: system that they need to shutter the law firms or
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  Speaker 3: threaten them with lawsuits themselves. They have to threaten the
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  Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, and they
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  Speaker 3: have to excise the language from the history books and
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  Speaker 3: the textbooks, and it's all... to defend their delicate sensibilities
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  Speaker 3: around feeling threatened about both their history, their present, and
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  Speaker 3: their future. I guess when you talk about incivility, I
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  Speaker 3: want to get to the essence of that because in
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  Speaker 3: the piece, in the Times, you say it's the refusal
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  Speaker 3: to surrender to hatred. What do you say to people
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  Speaker 3: who believe that incivility as a concept is the promotion
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  Speaker 3: of violence?
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  Speaker 4: Those are people who are telling us a lot more
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  Speaker 4: about themselves than anyone else because they feel that accountability
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  Speaker 4: is violence. They feel that truth is violence. And I
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  Speaker 4: noticed even in a few of the comments, which were
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  Speaker 4: largely very interesting and thoughtful, where some people saying, I
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  Speaker 4: can't believe you're calling for violence. And I am not
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: calling for violence. But what I am saying is that
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  Speaker 4: you cannot expect people who are dealing with oppression to
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: simply kneel and bow their heads and smile as you
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: oppress them. And when you are facing significant oppression, sometimes
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: violence is the only language that violent people understand. And again,
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: to bring it back to ICE, which is just such
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: a constant presence right now, that's the only language these
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  Speaker 4: people understand. They throw women and reporters and children and
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  Speaker 4: families and men. They throw anyone. They just throw them
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  Speaker 4: around as if they're ragdolls. So don't talk to me
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  Speaker 4: about violence. I think violence is abhorrent. I think it
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  Speaker 4: should be a tool of last resort. But saying that
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  Speaker 4: we don't have to be civil is not saying we
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  Speaker 4: are going to be violent. It is saying that we
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  Speaker 4: are not going to go quietly. And we are not
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  Speaker 4: going to do nothing in the face of really just
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  Speaker 4: pernicious overreach.
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  Speaker 3: Can I use, you mentioned in the piece, you use
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  Speaker 3: historical examples of the freedom riders in the 1960s. And,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I think so much about nonviolent civil protest
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  Speaker 3: as being sort of born in that era. And you
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  Speaker 3: write in the piece, all of the protest, all of
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  Speaker 3: their protest was civil and nonviolent. Nonviolence didn't mean passivity.
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  Speaker 3: It was a strategy intended to reveal the brutal contrast
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  Speaker 3: between the tactics of the oppressor and the experiences of
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  Speaker 3: the oppressed. nonviolent civil protest was met with rank incivility,
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  Speaker 3: which is to say the hypocritical way in which we
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  Speaker 3: presently understand civility and incivility is nothing new. So help
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  Speaker 3: me understand it through the lens of this moment where
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  Speaker 3: you're saying don't ask us to be civil. Do you
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  Speaker 3: think that the work of those freedom fighters and those
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  Speaker 3: civil rights activists in the 1960s sort of in the
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  Speaker 3: gate of civility was the wrong strategy. I just, I
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  Speaker 3: guess I'm trying to square what happened before in that
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  Speaker 3: context with what you're talking about now.
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  Speaker 4: No, not at all. I think that it's going to
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  Speaker 4: take multiple strategies. And many people have said that we
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X, and
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  Speaker 4: we could not have Malcolm X without Martin Luther King.
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  Speaker 4: We need multiple approaches. And throughout the civil rights movement,
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  Speaker 4: there have been significant proponents of nonviolence. And they have
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  Speaker 4: a point. And for many people, nonviolence does feel like
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  Speaker 4: the right way because it isn't passivity. It is an
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  Speaker 4: active choice to be nonviolent in the face of violence.
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  Speaker 4: It really isn't. Quite frankly, I admire it. I don't
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  Speaker 4: necessarily have that capacity. But I admire the people who do.
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  Speaker 4: And I also know that there have been many people
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  Speaker 4: during the civil rights movement who decided that, you know what,
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  Speaker 4: we are going to fight fire with fire. And Black
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  Speaker 4: gun owners in the South in particular were big advocates
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  Speaker 4: of not just going quietly when lynch mobs tried to
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  Speaker 4: come to their homes and kidnap them and do grievous
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  Speaker 4: harm to them. They decided, no, you know what, we're
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: going to use our guns because we have them too.
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  Speaker 4: And In a perfect world, we would never have to
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: go there. But the right to defend oneself, that is
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  Speaker 4: a right. And I think that more people should avail
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  Speaker 4: themselves of that right when they need to. And I'm
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: not talking about just going out and buying a gun,
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: but I am saying we do get to fight back.
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  Speaker 4: We shouldn't have to just bow our heads and suck
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: it up. But I very much admire what nonviolent activists
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  Speaker 4: were doing and In that piece I wrote, because I
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: had recently been to the Civil Rights History Museum, and
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  Speaker 4: it was just so powerful. It's just a really great
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: museum and really well curated and very educational. And I
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: mean that in the best possible way. And so ever
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: since then, I've just been thinking so much about what
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: a significant effort it was during the 40s, 50s, 60s,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: and quite honestly, up to till today, that what a
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: great movement and how powerful it has been to see
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: so many different approaches all arcing toward the same goal.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: And we need multiple approaches. It's not going to be
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: just any one strategy that's going to overcome the rise
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: of the second or the third or the fifth rise
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: of fascism in this country. And honestly, in other places
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: as well. So we just have to be able to
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: have that conversation and say, you know, it's going to
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  Speaker 4: take a lot of different strategies and a lot of
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  Speaker 4: different minds.
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  Speaker 3: To that end, I mean, the idea of opening the
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  Speaker 3: door to incivility, to not be constrained by the notions
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  Speaker 3: of civility that are basically thrust upon dissenters in this
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  Speaker 3: present political climate, I wonder how you think about that
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  Speaker 3: in the context of the Charlie Kirk assassination, right? I mean,
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  Speaker 3: it feels like uniformly elected Democratic officials mourned Kirk's death,
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  Speaker 3: even if they did not celebrate the ideas that he
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: put forward.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And it was complicated, right?
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  Speaker 3: It was complicated to figure out a way to disagree
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: with the ideas that he stood for and promoted and
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: resolutely stand against murder and assassination. How did you think
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: about those events in the context of, I guess, believing
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  Speaker 3: these uncivil times are going to call for and result
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  Speaker 3: in uncivil actions?
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  Speaker 4: Well, I thought that it was all very performative on
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  Speaker 4: the parts of politicians. And I don't think they care
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  Speaker 4: one way or the other about Charlie Kirk or what happened.
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  Speaker 4: I think they understood that they had to perform contrition
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: just in case. They were hedging their bets. And it's
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: so cynical and frankly pathetic. But I'm against the death penalty.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: The punishment for having odious beliefs is not death. And
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: so what happened there was a travesty But it would
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: be a travesty for anyone to be killed. Anytime someone
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: loses their life, especially in some misguided attempt to do
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: whatever that killer was trying to do, we have to
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: resist it. I just don't believe politicians when they're offering
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: that resistance because it seems so disingenuous. And the speed
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: with which they came out with those statements, my God.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: But it is what it is. I accept it for
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: what it is. But I am not going to mourn
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: someone who wouldn't spit to put me out if I
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: was on fire. I just, you know, but I think
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: it's criminal what happened to him. And I also feel
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: like the discourse has gotten so far afield from sanity.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Murder is bad. And just.
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  Speaker 2: Full stop.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: It's just murder is bad. And the fact that we
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: don't even have that common ground as just a people
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: anymore breaks my heart. But murder is not only bad
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: when someone is on stage and is killed by an assassin.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: Murder is bad when police, you know, kill an unarmed
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: Black person or an unarmed person of any race. It's
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: bad when a husband murders his wife because divorce is
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: just too much effort or because he believes he has
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: a right to do so. It's just always bad. And
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: I prefer to talk about that than to be so
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: specific and say, oh, but what about in this instance? No,
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: I'm actually just against it all the time.
• 17:12
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that that, you know, when you
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: talk about it in that framework, it makes total sense, right,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: that J.D. Vance, on one hand, memorializing Charlie Kirk, can
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: call for civility and as he is part of an
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: administration that is dragging people into ICE detention centers, targeting
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: blue states and cities, trying to disappear trans people from society.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: You know, all these things are incredibly violent things. Violence
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: is very inherent to the Trump administration. But because it's
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: affecting those people and not this person... you can call
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: for civility while being remarkably uncivil and explicitly violent. How
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: do you think they think of that disconnect?
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: I don't know that they do. I don't think that
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: they care. One of the many things the Trump administration
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: has shown us over the past, well, it's more than
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: a decade now, off and on, is that they simply
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: shape reality as they go along. And they shape their
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish. It's all
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: very malleable. It's all very fluid. And that's really what's
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: so scary. They don't bother themselves with reality. They don't
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: trouble themselves with fact. They simply make the world as
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: they want it. it to be. And they expect the
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: rest of us to go along with it. And then
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: when we point out that there is a grave inconsistency,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: we're the problem. We're un-American. Or we're uncivil.
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: And I.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Firmly believe that's the most confounding... issue that we're facing because,
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: you know, Trump, for example, is trying to frame this
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: current government shutdown as a Democrat problem when he has
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: the executive branch, the judicial branch and the legislative branch.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: There is no check. There is no balance. It's all
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: Trump all the time. So what do you mean that
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: you are going to lay responsibility at the feet of Democrats?
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: And then what is going on with the Democrats that
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: they are not in front of every single camera they
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: can find and every single microphone they can find, putting
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: the blame for what's happening directly at their feet. The
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: Democrats are being so.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Weak.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: And they'll say, oh, we're not in power. You're in office,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: so you have some.
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: Kind of power.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it's interesting that you talk about this
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: in the context of the government shutdown, because I was
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: having a conversation with Dan Pfeiffer yesterday on Pod Save America,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: and he was saying the Democrats are doing the worst.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Part of their strategy is so flawed, which is to
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: say we're not at fault for this government shutdown. In fact,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: they should own it and say we had to shut
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: the government down because of what this administration is trying.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: To do to Americans.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: We were left with no resort because we care about
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: the health and welfare of our citizens and we can't
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: fund a government that is actively trying to strip them
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: of their rights, strip them of access to healthcare. So
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: this is a principled fight. It's actually, in some ways,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: I wonder if that more adheres to your notion of
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: why civility doesn't work and it's time for uncivil tactics
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: like shutting down the government in the name of principle.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, does that square or am I overthinking it?
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: I don't think you're overthinking it at all. I think
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: it's an impossible situation. And if the Democrats would own it,
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: in which they're proceeding. If they would say, yes, we
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: did what had to be done because we are willing
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: to lead. But they don't even seem to have that
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: capacity to own it. They are always hedging and hawing.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: They're always sort of working from a place of listening
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: to advisors and pundits and polls instead of listening to
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: their instincts and forgetting about whatever three-dimensional chess game they
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: think they're playing and just contending with what is actually happening.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: So I would be very open to seeing them try anything.
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: Anything.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: Because I don't purport to have all the answers. It's
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: very easy to sit from my office and say they're
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: being weak, which they are. But I also don't know
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: how we proceed given the extent of what we are
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: dealing with right now. But I do know that something
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: different has to happen. I mean, something has to happen.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: It's not even about something different. They're not doing anything.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Well, the government is shut down.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, in fairness, they did, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: Schumer didn't play ball and we are in a government shutdown, right?
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: The question is what happens next? And I think to
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: your point, it's unclear why they did it, right? They
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: haven't been saying explicitly why they did it. There is
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: a conversation happening about healthcare and its affordability. And I
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: think that's inherently in service of democratic goals. But there's
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: no ownership of the fight. And what I'm hearing from
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: you is like own the fight because the times demand battle.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Not murderous battle.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: No, no.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: But new tactics and new strategies.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: And, you know, like people always go, you know, like
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: you said, it's always like people go to violence. But
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: it's like, no, just resist. And then stop always being
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: on the defense. Go on the offense. There are so
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: many things that Democratic politicians could and should be talking about.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: that can be laid directly at the feet of Donald
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Trump and his administration. You don't even have to look
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: for it because they're literally coming and they're dropping it
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: at your hand, your feet, rather. So just talk about it.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: Do something. And, you know, the fact that, yes, and
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: the bar is in hell. Like, oh, yes, they didn't
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: capitulate to to stochastic terrorism. Congratulations, Hakeem and Chuck. Good work.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, that we have to recognize that because that's
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: all there is. I mean, I am so, I'm frustrated
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: with it.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: You sound bereft.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: I am bereft. I am bereft because right now the
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: Trump administration is like a drunk terrorist in a candy
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: store with a sugar addiction. They are doing everything they've
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: ever wanted. And of course, we were all given the
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: blueprint for what they were going to do. And the
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: Democrats haven't even bothered to write a response or to
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: articulate their own policy platform in that really big public way,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: which again, why are we not writing a Project 2027?
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: And so, yeah, I'm just bereft because where does this end?
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Well, you write in the article, I keep wondering when
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: we will reach a cultural breaking point, when finally the
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Trump administration will go far enough to shove us out
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: of the comforts of our day-to-day lives. I was, again,
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: having this conversation about who has been, I mean, there's
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: a number of people in this country who've been shaken
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: out of their day-to-day lives, not by choice, right?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: By force. Accepting those individuals.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: It feels like if there is grassroots rage, organization, and indignation,
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: it is not being mirrored in the sort of institutional
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: response to all this, which is law firms capitulating, universities saying, okay,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: what deal can we make for you, with you? Media
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: companies saying, we'll take them off the air or we'll
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: hire some different people and we'll change the lens of
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: our focus. How much do you think that institutional civility,
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: if you will, is undermining a real citizen-led.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Uncivility? Or do you think the citizens still have.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, how do you see the landscape as it
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: stands in terms of reaching that breaking point?
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: We are so very far away. But you make an
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: important point, which is to say that activism is happening.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: And almost every single community, on the ground, grassroots, local organizers,
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: are truly doing God's work right now.
• 27:01
  Speaker 6: And.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: I am so grateful that that work is happening, that
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: that organizing is happening. Like right now in LA, in Chicago.
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: In.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: DC, Boston, we're seeing some amazing resistance to really terrifying
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: encroachments on people's freedom. And What's weird is that many
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: people don't know about it. And so part of the
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: problem is that it's the media's job to connect what's
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: happening on the ground with the institutions, and they're not
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: doing it. And we all know why, I guess, but
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: it's sad. And so I think until more people lose
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: a loved one or a friend or are mistakenly detained
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: or find themselves in such financial precarity that they have
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: only one choice left, which is to resist. Until we
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: all sort of start to feel that boot on our neck,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: I just don't know that there's going to be anything
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: that's going to make us sort of, and I include
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: myself in that, that are going to make us sort
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: of do something, even though I don't even know where
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: to start, other than to look to, as Mr. Rogers said,
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: the helpers. But one of the people I follow closely
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: in terms of activism and where to expend our energy
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: is Mariam Kaba, who is an abolitionist among many other things.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: And one of the things that she talks about quite
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: a lot is just picking one or two things because
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: you cannot do it all. And so that's the approach
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: I've been trying to take.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: What things have you chosen?
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: I have chosen, I am more than happy to go
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: to a protest. I think that it's useful. Um, I'm
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: actually very shy and quiet. So for me, that where
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: I can just sort of blend in and be there, um,
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: is good. But I also am more than happy to
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: write a check. I, and I'll do whatever is asked
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: of me, but what, what do I have that I
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: can contribute? And what a lot of organizers need is
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: money to do that work. Um, lawyers to get them
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: out of jail. Um, So I am trying to show
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: up when and where I can, and it seems to
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: be useful. I was at a protest about four or
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: five weeks ago, and someone said, oh, it's so good
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: to see you here. And I just thought, oh, really?
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: I'm just standing here, but okay. So sometimes those things
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: do matter. And I do try to do work with
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: mutual aid in LA when I can, where I live,
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: have time. And because that's just the community I'm more
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: connected to and that I know more closely. And I'm
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: always writing. It's a small tool, but it is one.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: It's a powerful tool that you have. I mean, I
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: wonder what you think.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: I have to ask this in the context of civility,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: because the calls for civility always mushroom in moments of
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: political protest and, you know, citizens on the street. And
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: when we saw those ICE protests in LA, they were deemed,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: you know, criminal and dangerous, even though, I mean, Waymo's accepted,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: they weren't They weren't criminal for the large part, or
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: they weren't dangerous. And I sort of wonder whether you
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: think there's a little bit of, not a risk, but
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: that there needs to be a cautionary note sounded in
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: and around this. Because I believe that some of this
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: crackdown on blue cities and states is to actually foment
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: you know, violent behavior or criminal behavior, which so far,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: you know, nobody's taken the bait. But one wonders whether
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: the calls for civility are just a red herring. I mean,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I'm saying this rhetorically more than anything else. And really,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: whether Trump's just gunning for, you know, he wants people
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: out in the streets and defacing property, because that gives
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: him the excuse to further crack down.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: I don't think he needs an excuse.
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: Honestly.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I don't think he cares. But you Do I
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: think that they are trying to bait people with all
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: of the pomp and circumstance? Of course they are. But
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: both that can be true and that we have to
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: show up can also be true. Because while all of
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: the sort of showmanship is happening, like the thing that
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: they did in Chicago, it's just, it's showmanship. They videotaped
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: the whole thing and then released a sizzle reel online
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: this morning. And so- Yeah, they're clearly doing it for show.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: But while they're doing it for show, they are taking
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: real people out of their homes. They are splitting up
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: real families. Like the evil work is happening alongside the show.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: And to just not respond would not be okay. And fortunately,
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: organizers are brilliant for the most part. And in LA,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: one of the great things that they have done is
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: that if you are staying in a hotel room, As
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: an ICE person, you're not going to get a good
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: night's sleep. You are going to hear all kinds of stuff.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: People gather in the parking lots. They play music from
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: their cars really loud. They honk their horns. They shine
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: their lights into all of the hotel windows. That's not violent,
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: but it's also not passive. And so, yeah, sure, you
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: can be a part of ICE and you can continue
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: to terrorize this community and kidnap people, but you're not
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: going to be well-rested. And I love that someone came
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: up with that because it's so elegant and so simple.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: And you know that when it happens, those men of
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: ice are, because it is a vocational program for men,
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: they are probably so irritated. And that brings me a
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: small amount of, I don't think joy is the word,
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: but satisfaction.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is brought to you by CookUnity. Talk
• 33:33
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  Speaker 1: None of them. I'm known for making nothing.
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• 33:46
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• 33:47
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• 33:52
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• 33:54
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• 33:59
  Speaker 6: I think so. I was comforted by it.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: I guess anything can be comfort food, really.
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: I was comforted by it.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: What's uncomfortable food?
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: Just sort of like raw vegetables.
• 34:06
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  Speaker 1: Or like sushi?
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• 35:54
  Speaker 3: You bring up gender and I want to talk a
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: little bit because you're a feminist about one of the
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: things that fueled Trump's rise, which is the manosphere. That's
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: like red-pilled men who blame women for not only their
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: own problems, but society's problems at large.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Is the manosphere something new?
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: No.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: It isn't. They just have a new way of gathering.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: The manosphere has always existed. Congress... It's everywhere. And the army.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: The White House.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Truly.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: That's just off the top of my head. It has
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: always existed. What is particularly troubling and unique about the
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: current moment is that they have such easy access to
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: one another and that there are no limits because they
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: tend to find themselves on these forums where there is
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: no moderation, where they are openly allowed to talk about
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: really virulent misogyny, which whatever, but then also violence against women,
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: violence against people they disagree with. They have created their
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: own vernacular to be able to better communicate amongst themselves
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: about their anxieties and their grievances. And so they have
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: more reach than before. And They are really good at
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: finding the disaffected and disillusioned young men or not so
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: young men who have nowhere to put feelings and who
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: don't have the tools to cope with feelings and who
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: don't have the personal ability to deal with accountability of,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: you know, take a shower, brush your teeth. Learn to
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: talk to other people and then listen to what is
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: being said to you. Learn to ask questions. You know,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: so much of this is just basic sort of human
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: 101 that they have decided they should be able to
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: opt out of and still have the woman of their
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: dreams and the career of their dreams. Like, that's not
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: how any of this works. You have to put effort
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: in and it doesn't have to even be that much effort.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: I see scrubs all the time who are doing just fine.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: And so, like, it just takes a little effort. And it's,
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm not, I have some empathy for disillusioned
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: people and disillusioned men because they were told that they
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: were going to have the world as their oyster and
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: their fathers and their grandfathers did. And then here's this
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: generation that isn't getting everything they've ever wanted, even though really,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: did anyone ever get it? And if you've been told
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: a certain thing your entire life and then it's not true,
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: of course you're disillusioned. But I also don't think that
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: that disillusionment is an excuse for hating women and for
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: hating just people of color or queer people, et cetera.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: They always target people who are more vulnerable than them
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: So that they can feel some sense of toxic masculinity.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: It's just a terrible brew. But most men are not
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: susceptible to that, fortunately. They're fine. And the hand-wringing that
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: we do in the media all the time about the
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: male loneliness epidemic, I don't know, stop looking at a
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: screen and go outside and talk to someone. Everyone.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Do you think... I mean, yeah.
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: Like....
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: I have two boys and I'm constantly thinking like, oh God,
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: is the manosphere the natural extension? Like, are they going
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: to get subsumed by it? So we talk about feelings
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: a lot. We get off the screens a lot.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just think what is the way that.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Society or women or whoever wants to take the mantle
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: upon themselves, how do you combat the manosphere? It feels,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to be unduly emphatic about
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: its importance, but it does feel like a real thing,
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: a real development, even if its essence is not new,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: the construct of this entire online sort of world subsuming
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: young men and sort of radicalizing them in a conservative
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: direction seems like something that like progressives and Democrats and
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: people who care about empathy need to sort of like
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: unpack and maybe figure out how to unwind. And I
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: guess I totally understand the notion of of reconnecting to
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: people and encouraging conversation and community and all of the rest.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: But I wonder if you think there's anything more explicit
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: that like, I don't know, our leaders need to do
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: or we as members of society need to think about.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: Yes and no. Part of me just thinks they need
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: to work this out amongst themselves because men listen to
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: other men. And so I think men need to take
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: responsibility for their brethren. I really, really do because they're
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: actually not going to listen to women for the most part.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: They're just not. And so I think men need to
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: hold other men accountable. But how much more do we
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: need to do as a society to cater to men
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: and make them feel whole?
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're living under a Trump presidency. Apparently we
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: need to do a lot more.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: So much of what is happening is predicated on a
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: lie that women are doing so well that it's gone
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: too far. And let's send them bitches back in the kitchen.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: You know, it's crazy. It is genuinely not grounded in sanity.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: And at the same time, I have two brothers and
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: they're amazing. Or, well, only one is surviving, but no,
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: it's okay.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say only one was amazing.
• 42:03
  Speaker 6: No, no, no.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: They're both, both amazing. And they are awesome fathers, reasonably
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: good husbands, and amazing brothers. And So I know what
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: men are capable of. And for me, that's the standard,
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: like just exist, you know, and they're guys, guys, they,
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: you know, they, they shoot guns. They were both raising
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: only daughters. Oh, well, no one has a son, but he's,
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: He's a very gentle giant. They watch sports. They do
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: all of the things that are typically coded as masculine,
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: but then they're also raising children and doing their share
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: of domestic labor. My parents, I credit them with modeling
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: what relationships between people of different genders should look like.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: And so we don't actually have to look that far
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: to find great examples of men. So what do we
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: do about these people who have somehow not been able
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: to actively participate in a healthy society? I don't have
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: the answer, but I just don't think that we need
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: to do some kind of deeply special outreach because so
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: much of our society is already dedicated to supporting men
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: and making them feel better.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Well, then let's talk about women because you are a feminist.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: And I wonder how you think of that concept in
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: the Trump years, how it's changed and what being a
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: feminist demands?
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, you don't have to.
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: No, no, it's fine. I don't know that feminism has changed.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought. I
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: think a lot of our work has become more urgent. I,
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: you know, right now we're trying to figure out how
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: do we stop losing ground? How do we get more
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: people on board with recognizing that women are people, that
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: women matter? When you look at all of the disparities
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: that women continue to face, it's like, how do we
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: continue to remind people of this when we have an
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: administration that's saying, oh, women have it great, no more
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: need for feminism, when it's patently untrue? I think our
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: work is just incredibly urgent right now. And What a
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: lot of people don't understand is that our work as
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: feminists is not only about bettering the lives of women
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: and making sure that women have equity in society. It's
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: about bettering the lives of everyone, regardless of gender. It
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: is about making sure that we have a planet to
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: live on and that everyone deserves equal pay for equal work,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: that everyone should have bodily autonomy. And that gets so
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: deeply misunderstood and lost. That's why I am able to
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: care about the very sad and disillusioned young men in
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: the manosphere. It's like, yeah, you want to see me dead.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: You think I have no value because I'm over the
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: age of 32 or whatever. But I still see you
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: as a human being. And I'm not even a sane
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: it's not about like oh i'm a good person now
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: these are table stakes for just being a person and.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: But that's you know can i just say that in
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: these times requires a degree of like connection to your
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: own humanity and cultivating empathy you know like you giving
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: a shit about the man the men in the manosphere
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: at least you know sort of objectively requires a certain
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: you know A connection to the outcomes of your fellow
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: humans or an investment in your humanity. Do you find
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: that challenging in these times as you see the sort
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: of disposability with which this administration in particular handles the
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: lives of certain people and certain entire regions of the
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: country that are critical or don't agree with them and
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: their worldview?
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: I find it very challenging. Every day, it's a battle.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: It's a real struggle because a very big part of
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: me is just like, fuck you, honestly. Get it together.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: If you cannot make that work, given this entire world
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: and how racist and homophobic and misogynistic it is, if
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: you cannot make that work, even a little bit, I
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: just don't know that I can cry for you. But
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: at the same time, I know that if we don't
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: address that, women don't get to live in peace. Women
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: are not safe.
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: And so even if it's self-interest, we have to care
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: a little bit. Otherwise, we are all in danger. And
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: I don't want anyone to be in danger. And so
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: it is a constant struggle. I try to have empathy.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: I really do. And I mean, there are some people
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: I just can't work it up. Like, you know, Trump,
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: people who are still like, yeah, that's my guy when
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: they look at Trump right now. Okay.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Then it's hard. The empathy is hard in those moments.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's impossible. Like, okay, congratulations, I guess. But like,
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: what am I empathizing with? Why would I? I'm not
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: a saint. There are so many people out there, and
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: God bless them, who are like, yes, I have empathy
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: for my fellow man, even as he points his weapon
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: at me. And we need those people. I'm not one
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: of them. I'm just like. What did you think?
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking of the moment.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: When Charlie Kirk's widow said she forgave the man who
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: assassinated her husband.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: Did she?
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: What did you think of that?
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: I think that Erica Kirk was ready for this moment.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: I think she was ready for the moment. And she
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: knew exactly what to say to further gild the path
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: ahead of her. I don't know if she really forgives.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: I could not possibly. Like if someone, God forbid, did
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: something to my wife, there would be absolutely no forgiveness ever.
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: So maybe she is just that connected with Jesus, but
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: I'm not. So I just thought it was shocking, honestly.
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: I thought it was shocking. I was like, he's not even...
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: at the funeral home yet.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Like, what?
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: Well, but, you know, I think there's like the person
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: and then there's the gesture. And to me, at least,
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: it was like, God, there's been so much finger pointing.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: There's been so much rage stood up around this. There's
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: a president who's taken it as a moment to, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: go after left-wing radicals. I thought it was actually, like,
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: I thought whatever the motivations and the timeline for someone
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: to call for forgiveness, difficult forgiveness in a time when
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: we seem so incapable of forgiving anything, I actually thought
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: it was like a profound moment as, as just the
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: gesture itself, you know? And I, you know, I, I
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: find a lot of things appalling about what, Charlie Kirk
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: was talking about, but just, it's been so long that
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: we've heard that kind of like, just notion that, you know,
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: to offer kindness in a moment of peril is, anyway,
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: that's just me.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: I'm not. I can see why someone would get there,
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: why you could get there. I don't have that ability
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: or that gene. I just, because I didn't believe it.
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: I did not believe it for a single second. I
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: is capable of forgiveness. I don't even think they believe
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: in forgiveness. And so I just could not get there.
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: But I hope that she has the space to mourn
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: and to care for her young children. And that they
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: have the space to mourn. I think those are the
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: truly innocent people in all of this. And I would
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: never wish anyone harm. But I don't believe that she
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: has forgiven the man that killed her husband. And I
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: don't believe that her saying it quelled anything. I think
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: it was just.
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: It was like performance really is the only thing I
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: can think of. But I hope, you know, we'll see.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: I think that but, you know, like her actions speak
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: very loudly. The fact that she is now the CEO
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: of Turning Point. Like, right. Oh, so we're going to
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: pick up where we left off.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: Before we head to break, just a quick bit of
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: housekeeping here. Vote Save America is running a first of
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: its kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona and
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: North Carolina and Texas. We're talking about school board, city council,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: state legislature, races that really shape our communities and they
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: build the bench for long-term democratic power. So even if
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: you're not from one of those states, they will connect
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: you with incredible national partners at the National Democratic Training
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: Committee and run for something, both the organizations that will
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: get you set up and ready to run anywhere in
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: this great country. Vote Save America will be hosting a
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: live call this Tuesday, October 7th at 5 p.m. Pacific,
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: 8 p.m. Eastern time to welcome new people to the program.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: And the great and inimitable Tommy Vitor will be there
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: work to break down and explain what it takes to
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: run and how we will support you every single step
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: of the way. If you have even thought about running,
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: if it has even been in your wildest dreams to
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: This is the place to start. So sign up for
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: the call and learn more at votesaveamerica.com slash run. Paid
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: for by Vote Save America. Learn more at votesaveamerica.com. This
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.
• 52:43
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• 53:59
  Speaker 3: You are someone that tells the truth about what you think.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately. No, well, I think, too.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: I think there are obviously people that are going to
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: disagree with you, but it's like you're an incredible writer.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: You're very compelling.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: And I think the piece about civility is very provocative.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: It really engenders a lot of conversation. And that, I think,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: is a good thing for society, even if you don't
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: necessarily disagree with what you're writing about. How do you
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: look at the really concerted, really unprecedented effort on the
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: part of this administration to go after Public critics, journalists,
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: anybody who's out there speaking in an uncensored way about
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: the ills of this president and his allies.
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: It's terrifying. I mean, it has... I have been struggling
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: with writer's block for years now, and this has not helped.
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: Because I have a family now, and.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: It's not even about what could happen to me, which
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: I don't relish the thought of anything happening to me.
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: It's that other people could be harmed because historically I've
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: gotten death threats for about 10 or 11 years now.
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: I've had to have security at almost every public event
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: that I do. It's really disconcerting to have to be
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: followed around by men who are armed. just because I
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: have a few opinions that quite honestly are not particularly radical,
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: it's terrifying. And it makes me afraid to write, to
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: really write. Like I have not written the things that
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: I really want to write because I just am not willing,
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: like my risk tolerance as I've gotten older, now that
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: I'm married and I have a, you know, my parent, well,
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: my dad, my brother, their kids, like, I just, my
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: risk tolerance is much lower than it used to be
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: when it was just kind of me. And that's because
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: people have called my parents' house. They have sent insane
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: emails and not just one, but like hundreds, sometimes in
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: a single day. And so on the one hand, it's like, oh,
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: someone has a lot of free time. But on the
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: other hand, you don't know which one of those people
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: is actually going to show up at your doorstep. Or
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: at your public event. Like I did an event two
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: days ago and I was just like, and I think
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: about this every time I go on stage, but I
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: was like, oh gosh, I hope today's not the day.
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: And so- Wow, really? Yeah, really. And we had two
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: bodyguards in the wings. And it was like, oh, thank
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: God they're there. But what a shame that they're there.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: And it just, you know, it's like- The price for
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: doing this kind of work should not be I'm afraid
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: for my life and the lives of all the people
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: who have joined me in these public spaces. That's just ridiculous.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: And I think we should all agree on that. And
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: same with, like I said, with Charlie Kirk. The price
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: for having odious opinions is not death and it shouldn't
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: be harassment. But here we are.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: As we think about kind of the stakes, right, and
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: I'm just listening to this example you cite about literally
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: being afraid for your life as you speak your opinion publicly.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Some people say we are on the brink of authoritarianism,
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: and some people just say we are under the rule
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: of an authoritarian leader. First of all, do you think
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: the distinction makes a difference?
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: And where do you think we are?
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: We are definitely under authoritarian rule. My parents are from Port-au-Prince, Haiti.
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: They fled a dictatorship. I grew up understanding what a
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: dictatorship is and what authoritarianism is, like many children of immigrants.
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: And since January 6th, my dad has just been shaking
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: his head in disbelief. And over the past several months,
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: for me, he's the canary in the coal mine. And
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: And he is disgusted. And understandably so. So I think
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: we're already there. I do not know how much worse
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: it's going to get. I don't know when it's going
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: to get better. But I do know that very few
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: dictatorships last very long. And I do try to remember that.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: That is our cold comfort.
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: I do wonder, though, as we think about the net
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: effect of these years beyond the partisan divide, the kind
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: of chasmic partisan divide and the isolation and the sense
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: of disassociation within one country. I wonder about our ability
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: to even determine the truth at the end of it all.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking about, I think there was a moment two
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: weeks ago, it's all a blur, when President Trump was
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: tweeting out about Tylenol causing autism. And you responded saying,
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: how are there no guardrails? You also mentioned some things
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: about Democrats. But just focus on the guardrail. I mean,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: my reaction was cosine.
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: What? Mm hmm.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And I wonder what.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: You think the net effect of like this period, I guess,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: new era, I'm not sure where we are here, of
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: misinformation and calculated disinformation, like where that leaves us as
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: a society, as someone who's interested in words and the
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: truth and meaning, someone who's a professor and is in
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: the industry of teaching people the truth. What happens when
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: the truth becomes so atomized or fungible?
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: That's a good question. And we're finding out in real time.
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: It's a really dangerous, dangerous time. And you say, are
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: we there yet? We're there for so many reasons. And
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: the dismantling of higher education, trying to get rid of
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: the Department of Education, the way that they are trying
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: to undermine scientific research, the way that they're trying to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: keep international students out of the country, all of this
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: is part of a plan. which again, we already know
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: about because we have the PDF. They released it and
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: then they did it.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Project 2025.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: Imagine, imagine.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: It was, it was pre, it was, what is it?
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: But you have to read required reading.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: It was absolutely like we, you know, either you did
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: your homework or you didn't, but you know, we're seeing
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: the way they're trying to erode knowledge and, And we
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: have to continually remind ourselves that science is real. Facts matter.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: And we have to do that work to make sure
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: that we are as well-informed as possible. And I also
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: believe we have to demand that there should be guardrails.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: The president is going to build a ballroom that is
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: larger than the East Wing? And there's no congressional approval required?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of us.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: Thought that the Constitution was stronger than it is turning
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: out to be. And it's interesting because Republicans oftentimes frame
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: themselves as constitutionalists. And now they're like, we thought it
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: was a suggestion. Originalists.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: It's bad, which is not the most eloquent thing I
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: can say, but it is the truest thing I can say.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: But I also think we have to resist the idea
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: that truth is fungible, that facts are fungible. They're not.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: They're just not.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Alternative facts are not. There are no alternative facts.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: No, there really aren't.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: By the way, just a declaration of principles right there.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: When Kellyanne Conway said there are alternative facts, everybody should
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: have been listening a little harder.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: Here we are. And that's what's so interesting about them.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: They're actually not devious. They're not slick. They're very blunt
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: tool people. here it is, let me go to McDonald's.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: They're just very plain about what they're going to do.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: Well, at risk of sounding like a fan of the strategy,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: they're also, they don't give a shit.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: They just say it and they do it. And I
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: think probably there's a lesson in there as we began
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: this conversation talking about the hand-wringing by some elected Democrats
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: in the context of a shutdown. It's like, you know,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: Trump has taught the country that you can be very
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: declarative and very explicit.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: And I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: And it's what I'm yearning to see from them. Care less.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Keep caring, but care less about the response.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: Make better choices about what you care about. Just do it. Like,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: It's not admirable, but it's fascinating to see the way
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: that the Trump administration does not care about permission, public opinion.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: They don't care. Like this ridiculous, and I'm writing about
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: it right now, the compact that they want universities to sign. Basically,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: it's sort of like a 10-page bend the knee and
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: let us reshape you. It's completely wild. Every single democratic
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: norm that has existed has been shattered. And they're like,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: we are just getting started. And I don't think that's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: a way to lead at all. I do not think
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: that we should lower ourselves to what they're doing. But
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: I do think that with whatever they believe, democratic politicians
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: should care less about what people are going to say
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: or what people are going to think. And fight the
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: good fight. And I think we have some really great examples.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: I think Mamdani in New York is incredibly interesting. I'm
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: always a little suspicious of anyone who wants to run
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: for office, but he has genuinely fresh ideas. Are they
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: going to be realistic? I don't know. But who cares?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: It's at least trying. And his ideas are like, yes,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: let's make sure that people can eat. Let's make sure
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: that people have a roof over their head. Why are
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: we objecting to any of this? It's great. And so
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: I would love to just see more politicians take some
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: big swings at things that we all deserve.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Big swings.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: They're popular. These ideas are popular.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take hope in the idea that Roxane
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: Gay has found something to celebrate in American political life,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: which is someone taking a big swing out there.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: That makes me feel good at the end of a conversation.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: And even AOC. I think she's brilliant and interesting. She's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: plain spoken. She doesn't pull punches, Jasmine Crockett. Let's also
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: look to the people who are doing really great stuff.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: And there are, in fact, some Democratic leaders who are
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: doing a lovely job, especially under these circumstances.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: These are extraordinary circumstances.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I applaud you for the sort of
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: courage to be out there and to take the risks
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: and to write eloquently and very compellingly about stuff that's
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: pretty complicated and disheartening and like I said I just
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: think the piece you well all of your writing is
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: worth reading but the most recent one was incredibly provocative
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: and and really like really made me think and I'm
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: really appreciative that you could take some time to chat
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: with us all about it.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Thanks for your time of.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: Course thank you for having me Alex.
• 1:05:52
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