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104 - Atmosphere and setting with Thea Verdone · Story Magic

• 2:14
  Emily: Foreign. Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Rachel.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Emily.
• 2:34
  Rachel: And today we are talking about atmosphere and setting with a very special guest, Taya Verdone.
• 2:41
  Thea Verdone: Welcome. Hi, Taya. Hi. Thanks for having me.
• 2:46
  Emily: We're so excited.
• 2:47
  Rachel: We are.
• 2:47
  Rachel: We're so excited.
• 2:49
  Rachel: So I am a fan.
• 2:50
  Rachel: I think I've talked about your books on the podcast before, but before I start just blabbing on and on, would you please tell us a little bit about you and what you do in the books that you write?
• 3:01
  Rachel: Sure.
• 3:02
  Thea Verdone: So I'm Taya.
• 3:03
  Thea Verdone: I write.
• 3:04
  Thea Verdone: Mm, modern gothic romance.
• 3:08
  Thea Verdone: Usually there's, like, a lot of angst in mental health rep, and I always try to incorporate my setting as, like, an additional character.
• 3:17
  Rachel: Yes. Which is why that's exactly what we want to talk about today.
• 3:21
  Rachel: And I read your.
• 3:23
  Rachel: Your book Never Leave, Never Lie last year, and it was one of my favorite reads of the whole year.
• 3:29
  Rachel: It was incredible.
• 3:30
  Rachel: So I highly recommend it.
• 3:32
  Rachel: And we used it in our descriptions class, I think, because you do such a great job of weaving all these different parts together.
• 3:41
  Rachel: And we did want to talk a lot about setting an atmosphere today because it does feel so visceral in your novels.
• 3:48
  Rachel: And then I also feel the same way about Emily's books, too, where just the world in this setting is just so part of it, you know?
• 3:58
  Rachel: But what's really interesting is that, yeah, you write contemporary and Emily writes fantasy, but it still is like, such a.
• 4:07
  Rachel: A vibe, you know, like, it's so important that setting is included.
• 4:12
  Rachel: So before we jump into, like, you know, what do you do to build that out?
• 4:16
  Rachel: Could you tell us a little bit about Gothic?
• 4:16
  Rachel: You know, why Gothic for you?
• 4:19
  Rachel: What leads you to writing about gothic and that vibe and style?
• 4:24
  Rachel: And how do you feel like it comes to life in your books?
• 4:29
  Thea Verdone: I guess by accident.
• 4:30
  Thea Verdone: I.
• 4:32
  Thea Verdone: I just kind of.
• 4:33
  Thea Verdone: I'm a big, dark romance reader, and I've always loved, like, horror and gothic stuff.
• 4:39
  Thea Verdone: And, you know, Shirley Jackson was, like, a favorite author of mine and stuff, but I started with just, like, basic contemporary romance.
• 4:47
  Thea Verdone: And then when I started writing Alex Story, Alec and Ian and Never Leave, Never Lie, I. I thought it was going to be, like, a dark romance.
• 4:55
  Thea Verdone: And then I kind of, while I was writing, figured out who I was and how much I really love that gothic vibe.
• 5:02
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Rachel: Yeah. It just.
• 5:05
  Rachel: How does it feel like, if you were to describe gothic to somebody who doesn't know?
• 5:09
  Thea Verdone: What.
• 5:09
  Rachel: What do you feel like?
• 5:09
  Rachel: Are the Hallmarks.
• 5:11
  Emily: Yeah, I was gonna, I was like, what is.
• 5:12
  Emily: I feel like it's one of those words we throw around.
• 5:14
  Emily: Right.
• 5:14
  Emily: But like it's gothic and like it gives you a feeling, a vibe.
• 5:18
  Emily: But like, how do you define it?
• 5:20
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, I read a bunch of articles when I was like trying to pitch my book and it seems like a lot of people feel that way.
• 5:27
  Thea Verdone: But there are like some universal things that are often included, which is like the setting as being super atmospheric and kind of claustrophobic.
• 5:38
  Thea Verdone: There can be supernatural elements, but not necessarily.
• 5:43
  Thea Verdone: There's often like kind of this rising dread that Chris.
• 5:48
  Thea Verdone: And Chris and crescendo.
• 5:50
  Thea Verdone: Oh my God, I can't say that word that, that climaxes towards the end.
• 5:55
  Thea Verdone: How about that?
• 5:57
  Thea Verdone: Towards the end.
• 5:58
  Thea Verdone: And I don't know if I mentioned the whole mental health aspect too.
• 6:03
  Thea Verdone: A lot of times there's like this unreliable narrator or like deterioration of mental health and not knowing like what's real and what isn't.
• 6:11
  Thea Verdone: Mm, yes.
• 6:14
  Emily: I love that distinction right there because I feel like that separates it a little bit from like suspense.
• 6:20
  Emily: Right.
• 6:21
  Emily: Having the like, unreliability, this sense of like, what's real, what's not, the claustrophobia.
• 6:26
  Emily: Like, I feel like that is just like slightly like there is suspense in gothic a lot of times, I think.
• 6:31
  Emily: But that doesn't necessarily, like, mean they're the same, you know, they're the same thing.
• 6:35
  Emily: Gothic has those unique aspects.
• 6:38
  Emily: That's cool.
• 6:39
  Thea Verdone: Yes, I totally agree.
• 6:40
  Thea Verdone: You can.
• 6:41
  Thea Verdone: Even if it's like historical gothic, you know, like the traditional kind, I think you can definitely differentiate it between other genres.
• 6:49
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 6:50
  Rachel: It's interesting to me how some, some of what you just, just described with like unreliable narrator has so much to do with character on top.
• 6:59
  Rachel: Like character and setting just become this very tight knit thing.
• 7:04
  Rachel: So how did you feel with like Alec, who is that person and, and bringing that to life through him?
• 7:11
  Rachel: I mean, I guess, like, did you develop these two things in conjunction with one another?
• 7:16
  Rachel: Did just feel like.
• 7:17
  Thea Verdone: No.
• 7:18
  Rachel: Alec is a very gothic person.
• 7:22
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Very sulky.
• 7:25
  Thea Verdone: Well, I think I kind of wrote them in tandem.
• 7:30
  Thea Verdone: I liked to use the house as kind of a metaphor for Alex's own growth too.
• 7:36
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Thea Verdone: Kind of like slowly transforming into something whole again.
• 7:42
  Thea Verdone: When we started all broken and there's all these, you know, hidden corners and.
• 7:50
  Emily: Just because they're renovating a house.
• 7:52
  Rachel: Right.
• 7:52
  Emily: I've.
• 7:52
  Emily: I've only read snippets of the book.
• 7:55
  Rachel: The ones that I've sent her to.
• 7:56
  Emily: Be like, it's on my tbr.
• 7:57
  Emily: But but yeah, can you.
• 8:00
  Emily: Maybe for folks who haven't, you know, who aren't familiar with the story, you could just give us a teeny like about it.
• 8:07
  Rachel: Great point.
• 8:08
  Thea Verdone: Okay, so never leave, never lie.
• 8:09
  Thea Verdone: It's about Alec and Ian.
• 8:11
  Thea Verdone: Alec is a pianist with synesthesia, and he has all these secrets and lies.
• 8:19
  Thea Verdone: And he's also with this man, Ian, who's a historical building rehabilitator, sort of contractor.
• 8:29
  Thea Verdone: And Ian is a total, like, I think I can fix him if I just keep trying.
• 8:34
  Thea Verdone: Like, the house.
• 8:36
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:38
  Thea Verdone: Part of their business is to kind of buy up these properties and then restore them to their former glory and then resell them.
• 8:47
  Thea Verdone: And then Alec kind of finds this forever home.
• 8:50
  Thea Verdone: Except he hasn't shared that with Ian because he doesn't share very much, like, information.
• 8:54
  Thea Verdone: That's true.
• 8:55
  Thea Verdone: And they're working on this house that starts really crumbling.
• 8:59
  Thea Verdone: It's like a Victorian manor situation.
• 9:02
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, gotcha.
• 9:04
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 9:05
  Thea Verdone: And all this.
• 9:07
  Rachel: Go ahead.
• 9:08
  Emily: I was just gonna say.
• 9:08
  Emily: So the.
• 9:09
  Emily: So as you were saying before I interrupted you, like, the house is a sort of a metaphor for what Alec is going through in terms of, like, it's got.
• 9:17
  Emily: You were saying that it has hidden corners and secrets and things like that, and that kind of mirrors him.
• 9:21
  Emily: That's really cool.
• 9:23
  Thea Verdone: Oh, thanks.
• 9:24
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, I. I took, like, some notes about it, if I can find them, but just with, like, how Alec kind of is the one to stumble upon the house and then is so, like, in.
• 9:38
  Thea Verdone: Enchanted by it.
• 9:40
  Thea Verdone: It's like there's this immediate connection, almost like he does himself in it and like, with this, like, fog gray paint that's, like, peeling, and there's this wisteria that's, like, totally overgrown and climbing up to, like, a tall tower and stuff.
• 9:56
  Thea Verdone: That's kind of like where I started, I guess.
• 9:59
  Rachel: And yeah, yeah, I was gonna mention the wisteria because it's also such a big.
• 10:04
  Rachel: There's different pieces of the house, and the wisteria being one of them, that.
• 10:09
  Rachel: That change and undergo this trauma as Alec does.
• 10:15
  Rachel: And it.
• 10:15
  Emily: It.
• 10:16
  Rachel: What?
• 10:16
  Rachel: I loved the reason why we.
• 10:18
  Rachel: We picked.
• 10:18
  Rachel: I don't know if you know, but the.
• 10:20
  Rachel: The excerpt that we picked for our class was when Alec falls and rips the wisteria down.
• 10:26
  Rachel: Right.
• 10:26
  Rachel: And it's just like the description of how that action happens is so visceral, but it's like the house itself, the more Alec crumbles, like, the more the house is.
• 10:35
  Thea Verdone: Is falling apart too.
• 10:37
  Rachel: And you've done such a great job of weaving those two things together.
• 10:43
  Rachel: Like, it felt very considered, you know, like, very thoughtful of, like, oh, yeah.
• 10:49
  Rachel: This setting is like, the house is what binds them together when they're, like, ready to tear each other apart, but they can't because they have the house.
• 10:58
  Thea Verdone: Exactly.
• 10:59
  Thea Verdone: Because they definitely.
• 11:00
  Thea Verdone: At least one of them definitely wants to, you know, bounce.
• 11:03
  Thea Verdone: But the house is there to hold them together.
• 11:05
  Thea Verdone: Exactly.
• 11:07
  Thea Verdone: And, yeah, I do feel like I'm very intentional when I'm writing to kind of try to connect the setting in the mood.
• 11:15
  Thea Verdone: I kind of think, you know, how you learn about, like, character voice and how you should choose words very wisely to make each individual sound authentic and real.
• 11:29
  Thea Verdone: You know, like, for example, Alec is a musician, and he thinks about things in, like, a lot of musical sort of metaphors.
• 11:38
  Thea Verdone: Um, and for the house in the forest surrounding it, I was kind of able to kind of build in that whole sort of, like, claustrophobia and just this sense of, like, being sentient almost and alive.
• 11:56
  Thea Verdone: And I try to do that with all the ones I.
• 11:59
  Thea Verdone: All the settings I write.
• 12:00
  Rachel: Yeah, Yeah, I. I think, like, bringing it back to character is really important and how the characters, like, live their lives and look through them.
• 12:10
  Rachel: And I think with, like, world building and setting building in general, there's.
• 12:13
  Rachel: There's usually two pieces, which is the building itself.
• 12:16
  Rachel: I mean, like, you have to play, like, planning that out or creating it, whatever, and then bringing it to life on the page.
• 12:23
  Rachel: And those are, like, two very different skill sets.
• 12:27
  Rachel: How do you.
• 12:28
  Rachel: Like, how do you approach world building and then showing it, you know, on the page?
• 12:33
  Thea Verdone: Good question.
• 12:33
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, I'm glad you asked that.
• 12:36
  Thea Verdone: Okay, so I do a ton of research right now for my current work in progress.
• 12:42
  Thea Verdone: I literally have, like, 700 pins on my Pinterest.
• 12:44
  Thea Verdone: It's, like, really never, never lie.
• 12:48
  Thea Verdone: It's not quite so intense.
• 12:49
  Thea Verdone: But I basically research locations sometimes it's like, actually, like, a real estate listing.
• 12:56
  Thea Verdone: I do a lot of things on Pinterest to find more details about, like, the interior, a lot of times, exterior, too.
• 13:04
  Thea Verdone: But, like, if I have a very specific doorknob, which.
• 13:08
  Thea Verdone: That's another thing.
• 13:08
  Thea Verdone: I don't know if it will come up, but I feel like making the setting feel real is by being specific and using really specific details and without making it boring, you know, And I totally lost my train of thought.
• 13:23
  Thea Verdone: So what was the original question before that?
• 13:27
  Rachel: Because it's like, you have to build it, but then you also have to bring it to life on the page.
• 13:32
  Rachel: So how did you approach both of those things where you.
• 13:35
  Rachel: You're built you're looking at real estate listings, right?
• 13:37
  Rachel: To get ideas.
• 13:37
  Rachel: Then you also have to show it, which is its own technique.
• 13:42
  Thea Verdone: Okay, thank you for jogging my memory.
• 13:44
  Thea Verdone: I have adhd.
• 13:45
  Thea Verdone: Same.
• 13:49
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, so I do all this research.
• 13:51
  Thea Verdone: I also do, like, antique listings.
• 13:53
  Thea Verdone: I'm trying to think of things that might help other authors, like think outside side of the box.
• 13:58
  Thea Verdone: Alec.
• 13:59
  Thea Verdone: Pianos are really important to him.
• 14:01
  Thea Verdone: So I actually looked through, like, I don't know, dozens of piano listings, like really priceless, restored ones, to kind of figure out what I wanted.
• 14:09
  Thea Verdone: And I also try to blend things together so that makes it unique to just pull what you want, which is really kind of fun to make your own thing, you know, and then to put it onto the page specifically from those notes.
• 14:24
  Thea Verdone: I don't know if I like, actively do that.
• 14:27
  Thea Verdone: I just have these images in my mind and I free write, you know, and then I kind of.
• 14:33
  Thea Verdone: As my writing process, I will often start with more of a skeleton for each chapter, description wise.
• 14:39
  Thea Verdone: And then I definitely go back in repeated rounds and keep layering and layering details.
• 14:45
  Thea Verdone: While you also need to sometimes chop them out because nobody wants to read about something.
• 14:50
  Thea Verdone: I don't know, piano restoration for like, five pages, I would love that.
• 14:54
  Rachel: But I also agree with you.
• 14:55
  Rachel: I. I like, really connected with that part of Alec because I've been playing piano since I was a little girl.
• 15:00
  Rachel: So having him, as you can see, I really, like, really loved this book.
• 15:05
  Rachel: But yeah, it was, it was very, like, special or thoughtful to see him think in musical terms, which I completely understood, and then feel so grounded in him of, like, he has, you know, his tunnel vision, but still we get all these little specific details.
• 15:24
  Rachel: Cause it really is like, what's relevant.
• 15:26
  Rachel: You know, you can have the whole house, but what's relevant in the moment to Alec is bringing it out.
• 15:32
  Rachel: And like, that's how you're showing it through him.
• 15:35
  Rachel: Is what?
• 15:35
  Rachel: Why?
• 15:36
  Rachel: Right?
• 15:36
  Rachel: Why this?
• 15:37
  Rachel: Why right now?
• 15:39
  Emily: Okay, so my question is, you describe how you have like 700 Pinterest, you know, articles and images and things, and you do all these, all this research on types of houses, what interiors could look like.
• 15:51
  Emily: How do you decide which of those details and inspirations to actually pull from?
• 15:56
  Emily: Like, are you pulling the things that you think are going to have meaning to the characters in some way, or just like the things that look cool?
• 16:03
  Emily: Like, how do you choose which piano?
• 16:03
  Emily: You know what I mean?
• 16:07
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. So for the piano itself, that one's not as interesting.
• 16:10
  Thea Verdone: It's just like I.
• 16:12
  Thea Verdone: I tried to pick a Victorian era one that seemed, you know, cool.
• 16:18
  Thea Verdone: That had, like, an Alec vibe.
• 16:20
  Thea Verdone: I don't know.
• 16:22
  Emily: Hey, vibes are vibes.
• 16:23
  Rachel: They work.
• 16:25
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, but I try to include things really purposefully to build on the story or, like, the mood.
• 16:35
  Thea Verdone: So a lot of times it'll be things like that.
• 16:37
  Thea Verdone: Like, if I'm thinking, like, on a more exterior setting kind of scale, like, I'll try to include parts about the forest that build that claustrophobia or the sense of dread, or, like, there's a line where the trees, like, are too still.
• 16:53
  Thea Verdone: Like, they're holding their breath, and that kind of, like, weaves in.
• 16:56
  Thea Verdone: So I feel like a lot of times it's that or, like, definitely a lot of symbolism.
• 17:01
  Thea Verdone: Like, I have a part in the book where there's a nurse log, which is, like, a tree that's fallen on its side.
• 17:07
  Thea Verdone: Side, and the roots are, like, pulled out.
• 17:09
  Thea Verdone: And then you have all these new baby trees growing from that log.
• 17:13
  Thea Verdone: That's why it's called nurse log.
• 17:15
  Thea Verdone: And that was, like, a symbolic thing about kind of what happened to Alec with someone looking out for him and, like, that person's sacrifice that they made for him does that.
• 17:27
  Emily: That's really cool.
• 17:28
  Emily: Yeah, no, that's really cool.
• 17:31
  Emily: I love it because it sounds like you pack all kinds of meaning into the pieces of the setting and.
• 17:35
  Emily: And.
• 17:36
  Emily: And stuff, and that meaning is coming from, you know, what the character is going through.
• 17:40
  Emily: So I guess my next question is, like, what is your process?
• 17:42
  Emily: Do you kind of know what the character's arc is going to be and, like, what that meaning is going to be before you start drafting?
• 17:49
  Emily: And so you're building the world intentionally around that, or are you, like.
• 17:53
  Emily: Are you a pants?
• 17:53
  Emily: Or, like, Rachel, where you just kind of, like, feel it out and it comes together, and then, you know, you revise it to be more intentional.
• 18:00
  Emily: Like, what's your.
• 18:01
  Emily: How. How do you approach that?
• 18:03
  Thea Verdone: I'm a total plant, sir.
• 18:07
  Emily: Love it.
• 18:08
  Thea Verdone: I almost.
• 18:09
  Thea Verdone: My process seems pretty similar every time.
• 18:12
  Thea Verdone: I'll start by, like, just writing the character, free writing, just to get to know them a little bit.
• 18:17
  Thea Verdone: And then I either already have the idea of the story in my head, or I kind of figure that out after getting to know the character.
• 18:26
  Thea Verdone: And I don't spend too much time on that part.
• 18:28
  Thea Verdone: And then I let myself have the freedom to change things and go down rabbit holes that often.
• 18:35
  Thea Verdone: It's really cool how that's where writing feels magical.
• 18:38
  Thea Verdone: Sometimes when you are just letting the words flow and you come up with something, like, way cooler and you don't even feel like you actively did it.
• 18:45
  Thea Verdone: Like it genuinely was the character and, like, the story unfolding.
• 18:49
  Thea Verdone: So that's usually how I work with, like, you know, I know exactly, like, for both the ones I'm working, this never leave, never lie and what death forgets.
• 19:00
  Thea Verdone: I know the whole story, how it's going to end, but in between, there's wiggle room.
• 19:04
  Thea Verdone: A lot of it.
• 19:05
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:09
  Rachel: When I'm doing, like, my descriptions and setting are, like, my least favorite thing.
• 19:15
  Rachel: Just because they're never, like, I just always forget about them.
• 19:18
  Rachel: So it's a big part of my.
• 19:20
  Rachel: I don't.
• 19:21
  Rachel: I don't care about it.
• 19:21
  Rachel: I just care about my characters talking and fighting with each other.
• 19:24
  Rachel: That's basically it anyway.
• 19:26
  Rachel: Not that I don't care about.
• 19:27
  Rachel: It's not the first thing that's on my mind.
• 19:29
  Rachel: Dialogue.
• 19:30
  Rachel: And we talk about this on the podcast, so listeners will know.
• 19:32
  Thea Verdone: But.
• 19:32
  Rachel: So, you know, I normally just do dialogue first, and setting is, like, one of the last things that I do.
• 19:39
  Rachel: But I have to have, like, I'm planning a revision right now, and every single scene, I think I have a revision note that's like, you have to describe the setting.
• 19:47
  Rachel: Like, where are they?
• 19:49
  Rachel: What's going on?
• 19:49
  Rachel: And then I'm like, okay, I'll do that.
• 19:53
  Rachel: You know, I'll do that later.
• 19:55
  Rachel: When you're.
• 19:57
  Rachel: When you're planting and when you're doing this, you have.
• 19:59
  Rachel: We've talked about how you've built things and brought it to life, but do you, like, go through every scene when you're writing it and you're like, okay, this is the vibe.
• 20:08
  Rachel: I need to grow some dread.
• 20:10
  Rachel: So how am I going to do that?
• 20:11
  Rachel: Or are you, like, is this part of a revisions process for you as well?
• 20:15
  Rachel: Are you thinking, like, okay, the.
• 20:18
  Rachel: The atmosphere of this scene, we're outside, we're in front of the wisteria, the trees are there.
• 20:22
  Rachel: Here's how it's going to look.
• 20:23
  Rachel: Is that, like, really top of mind for you?
• 20:27
  Thea Verdone: I do think it is.
• 20:28
  Thea Verdone: While I'm writing, I. It's easier for me to use what death forgets as an example, like, actually in it right now.
• 20:33
  Thea Verdone: But I do very much try to, as I'm writing, include that for the mood, for the story, for increasing the tension.
• 20:45
  Thea Verdone: And sometimes, like, for Alec, sometimes I would use, like, I would submit, subvert the expectation of, like, for example, the weather being, like, really cheerful when actually something horrible had happened.
• 20:59
  Thea Verdone: You know, So I do do that actively.
• 21:03
  Thea Verdone: But then the more.
• 21:05
  Thea Verdone: The smaller details, like, if I Do have symbolism for, like, a doorknob.
• 21:09
  Thea Verdone: Because that's just how I. I don't know.
• 21:11
  Thea Verdone: That's like, my metaphor right now.
• 21:12
  Thea Verdone: I usually layer it on each rewriting session and, like, expand.
• 21:19
  Thea Verdone: But I do.
• 21:20
  Thea Verdone: I think it's really common to do the whole white room thing, you know, writer.
• 21:25
  Thea Verdone: I see that all the time because I beta read a lot.
• 21:28
  Thea Verdone: And I do also feel like when I'm writing, it is mostly dialogue for me as well, you know, But I.
• 21:35
  Thea Verdone: I guess since I like setting and it's habitual, I do incorporate a lot of it while I write.
• 21:40
  Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, I.
• 21:42
  Rachel: I totally feel the white room vibe, but in my head there, it's.
• 21:46
  Rachel: Why.
• 21:46
  Rachel: Why do I have to describe it?
• 21:48
  Rachel: It's just in my head, so that's.
• 21:49
  Rachel: I just miss it because I, like, am living it, you know, like a moving going on in my head.
• 21:55
  Rachel: And then I'm like, oh, wait, not everybody.
• 21:57
  Rachel: Yeah, not everybody can see that.
• 21:59
  Rachel: I can see it really good.
• 22:00
  Rachel: And I'm never going to be able to describe, you know, trees holding their breath.
• 22:05
  Rachel: You know, Like, I just.
• 22:07
  Rachel: It's not.
• 22:08
  Rachel: It's a skill I'm still, you know, developing with every pass, but I think that's incredible.
• 22:12
  Thea Verdone: It's.
• 22:13
  Rachel: It's, like, very immersive.
• 22:15
  Thea Verdone: Thank you.
• 22:16
  Emily: Like, I have the opposite problem where I have to, like, if I can't see the setting and, like, feel the vibe of the setting, like, it's really hard for me to see what's going on in the scene.
• 22:25
  Emily: So I have, like, the opposite problem where I'll get hung up on trying to get the setting vibe right when it's like, girl, you don't even know what this book is about yet.
• 22:34
  Emily: Just keep moving.
• 22:36
  Emily: So I've been.
• 22:37
  Emily: I've been getting better about, you know.
• 22:39
  Emily: You know, accepting that I don't always know exactly what the emotional arc of a scene is.
• 22:43
  Emily: So.
• 22:43
  Emily: So because of that, I can't get the description, like, perfectly right.
• 22:47
  Emily: But I'll still try for a little while and then be like, keep going.
• 22:52
  Emily: Have to move on.
• 22:53
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Two things.
• 22:55
  Thea Verdone: First, going back to you, Rachel, you write mafia stuff, though, right?
• 23:00
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 23:00
  Thea Verdone: So that's one thing I did want to touch on because, like, since I do beta read a ton and I don't really exchange with any Gothic romance authors, I feel like it's pretty typical.
• 23:11
  Thea Verdone: Like, you don't need to put as much because you're.
• 23:14
  Thea Verdone: You don't necessarily even want that much, you know, So I think it's okay, probably, that you're not having the trees hold their breath, you know?
• 23:24
  Rachel: Yeah. I think it's like, I know what my readers want.
• 23:28
  Thea Verdone: Exactly.
• 23:29
  Rachel: They. They're not really concerned about.
• 23:31
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 23:32
  Rachel: You know, all the.
• 23:34
  Rachel: Of course we need to fill in the blanks.
• 23:35
  Rachel: Right.
• 23:36
  Rachel: And, like, I. I definitely need to add that, but I think that's why I specifically, really latched on to this section of contemporary.
• 23:45
  Rachel: Like Mafia specifically, is because I love fantasy, but I don't love world building a ton.
• 23:53
  Rachel: And I, like, read the hell out of it.
• 23:56
  Emily: It's.
• 23:57
  Thea Verdone: I adore it.
• 23:58
  Thea Verdone: Right.
• 23:58
  Rachel: But I've never felt super comfortable in that space.
• 24:02
  Rachel: It's not, like, my zone of genius.
• 24:03
  Rachel: So going into Mafia, it's basically fantasy.
• 24:06
  Rachel: Like, yeah, this is real.
• 24:09
  Rachel: Like, none of this is grounded in reality, you know?
• 24:10
  Rachel: Like, it just so over the top that making it, like, over the top in a contemporary world, like, just really matched with my preferences, because people can visualize New York City without me having to describe the buildings, you know, just can.
• 24:29
  Rachel: Cool. It's New York City.
• 24:30
  Rachel: We're on a street.
• 24:31
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Great.
• 24:32
  Rachel: You know, it's been a nice home.
• 24:35
  Thea Verdone: For me for now.
• 24:37
  Thea Verdone: That's great. Yeah. Okay. And then my other thing.
• 24:40
  Thea Verdone: I'm trying to remember everything.
• 24:41
  Thea Verdone: So back to Emily now.
• 24:42
  Thea Verdone: So I was gonna say, I am exactly the same with, like, getting hung up on things.
• 24:47
  Thea Verdone: For me, it's often perfectionism, though, so I totally relate to that, where I keep having to remind myself, like, just go and finish the story, and then you can, like, do more, you know?
• 24:57
  Thea Verdone: So I totally relate to that also.
• 24:58
  Thea Verdone: It's a struggle, you know?
• 25:00
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Rachel: We are, like, really.
• 25:03
  Rachel: We talk a lot about the inner critic, and I know this.
• 25:06
  Rachel: We're not talking about the inner critic for this podcast, but I just think it's so interesting.
• 25:11
  Rachel: Can we talk about your perfectionism?
• 25:11
  Rachel: Can we talk about that a little bit?
• 25:15
  Rachel: And, like, how.
• 25:16
  Rachel: How does that show up for you?
• 25:17
  Rachel: And I think it's a constant learning journey to navigate.
• 25:22
  Rachel: You know, inner critic voices, perfectionism, specifically.
• 25:25
  Rachel: It's something that Emily and I have both struggled with and talked a lot about on the podcast, but it's a. It's an ongoing thing.
• 25:32
  Rachel: So how do you tackle it?
• 25:34
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, I would do want to say I listened to two of your podcasts on it, and I think it's really helpful and kind of to work on that, you know, So I appreciate that.
• 25:45
  Thea Verdone: So for me, it shows up as, like, I really like to have a lyrical cadence, and I think of my prose a lot as art.
• 25:53
  Thea Verdone: Like, I'm doing it for my own artistic expression.
• 25:57
  Thea Verdone: You know, so sometimes I would get super fixated on just reorganizing sentences over and over for, like, way too long than is necessary.
• 26:09
  Thea Verdone: So that way it sounds beautiful when you read it in your head.
• 26:14
  Thea Verdone: And I often just have to remind myself, though, like, readers are going to read it, like, in a second, you know, So I don't.
• 26:22
  Thea Verdone: I just need to push past that.
• 26:24
  Thea Verdone: And I also have a hard time, like, allowing my prose to be messy before moving on with Never Leave, Never Lie.
• 26:33
  Thea Verdone: I had a really great routine where I actually had a really clean draft by the end because I.
• 26:40
  Thea Verdone: I would polish it before sending it off to my beta readers each time we swap or critique partners each time we swap chapters, you know, so I was able to deliver this, you know, finished product, but now, like, this isn't working for this project.
• 26:54
  Thea Verdone: I've been writing it for way too long.
• 26:56
  Thea Verdone: It's been, like, over a year, which is so tragic to me.
• 26:59
  Thea Verdone: But we're getting close to the end.
• 27:01
  Thea Verdone: But anyways, like, I have to change gears.
• 27:03
  Thea Verdone: I can't say that I'm going to have a polished draft, especially.
• 27:07
  Thea Verdone: Especially when sometimes the plot changes along the way and then you end up, like, just deleting all that anyways, so.
• 27:13
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 27:14
  Emily: Yeah. Oh, I feel that in my bones.
• 27:18
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. I think if it works, if you're actually making progress and you're finding joy in it, but if you're not, then Gotta do something different.
• 27:26
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:28
  Thea Verdone: Okay.
• 27:28
  Emily: I have a question about Gothic.
• 27:31
  Emily: Does Gothic have a structure?
• 27:31
  Emily: Like, do you use a story structure that is specific to that genre?
• 27:37
  Emily: The reason I ask is because.
• 27:39
  Emily: Hot take.
• 27:40
  Emily: I am realizing that Save the Cat doesn't work for me right now.
• 27:45
  Thea Verdone: Oh, my God. Earth shattering.
• 27:47
  Emily: We'll do a whole episode on that.
• 27:50
  Emily: But I'm realizing that that's not how thrillers work.
• 27:54
  Emily: And I. This is a developing thing.
• 27:56
  Emily: I just had a conversation with my critique partner about it this morning because I was like, I can't figure out my all is Lost.
• 28:01
  Emily: And she's like, it's because it doesn't work the same.
• 28:04
  Emily: Because if you have a Save the Cat all its last moment, you're going to kill the tension of the thriller, and then it's all over.
• 28:09
  Emily: And I was like, oh, my God, my whole worldview is shattering.
• 28:13
  Emily: But so putting that aside.
• 28:14
  Emily: Talk about it later.
• 28:16
  Emily: I'm curious, like, is.
• 28:17
  Emily: Does Gothic not suffer?
• 28:20
  Emily: Does Gothic have that challenge of, like, having its own kind of structure?
• 28:24
  Emily: Do you use a structure?
• 28:24
  Emily: Do you just kind of make it up?
• 28:27
  Emily: Like, what's your approach?
• 28:27
  Emily: Your Personal approach.
• 28:29
  Emily: You don't have to answer for the genre as a whole.
• 28:32
  Thea Verdone: Sure, sure.
• 28:33
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. I do think for Gothic, there is kind of that expectation of, like, the whole building dread, building tension towards the end, you know, and, like, something really crazy happening or whatever.
• 28:47
  Thea Verdone: But for me, I just.
• 28:50
  Thea Verdone: I'm very familiar with, like, the general romance arc, so I so use romance.
• 28:57
  Thea Verdone: That's good.
• 28:58
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, yeah. Cause I'm like.
• 29:00
  Thea Verdone: I started with romance, you know, and so I all.
• 29:04
  Thea Verdone: But I don't do it rigidly.
• 29:06
  Thea Verdone: I usually just pop in, like, maybe two or three times while I'm writing to make sure my beats are hitting vaguely where they're supposed to be.
• 29:15
  Thea Verdone: But because I do have, like.
• 29:17
  Thea Verdone: I feel like I do, like, a stepladder sort of thing towards the end, but through, like, the second and third act of, like, things get better and then they go back and then they get better, and then it goes to something even worse the next time for, like, you know, backsliding.
• 29:35
  Thea Verdone: And it just kind of goes like that until things just explode.
• 29:39
  Thea Verdone: So. And then another thing that was really helpful was after releasing Never Leave, Never Lie, people kept telling me that this was, like, no other book they've ever read.
• 29:49
  Thea Verdone: It wasn't, like, any romance they'd ever read.
• 29:52
  Thea Verdone: And just I had, like, insecurity about not following that skeleton.
• 29:56
  Thea Verdone: And, like, do I, you know, am I supposed to be plotting the way everyone else is?
• 30:00
  Thea Verdone: It's still going to be a good book.
• 30:02
  Thea Verdone: And now I can just kind of embrace, like, I do write unique stories as long as the pacing works.
• 30:08
  Thea Verdone: And I do, like, that whole ratcheting up of tension towards the end, and we're all happy then.
• 30:13
  Thea Verdone: If it didn't follow it perfectly, it's okay.
• 30:16
  Emily: So, yeah, yeah.
• 30:18
  Thea Verdone: Vibes.
• 30:19
  Emily: If we didn't follow it perfectly, it's okay.
• 30:21
  Emily: That should be.
• 30:23
  Emily: Here's the rules.
• 30:25
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, I don't know.
• 30:28
  Thea Verdone: That's probably not good advice for, like, newer authors, I guess.
• 30:32
  Emily: I mean, I feel like that's always the struggle, right?
• 30:34
  Emily: It's like, yeah, if you don't know anything about the craft, you can't, like, you can't really throw the rules out the window and, you know, expect yourself to write a successful or not successful but, like, satisfying story, you know?
• 30:47
  Emily: Um.
• 30:48
  Emily: But anyway, yeah, I opened a can of worms.
• 30:53
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. I read a ton of craft books before.
• 30:56
  Thea Verdone: Feeling that confident, too.
• 30:57
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.
• 31:01
  Rachel: You feel like I've always had such a hard time, like, making, like, executing craft on the page.
• 31:08
  Rachel: Um, have you felt the same?
• 31:08
  Rachel: And I don't know if it's being neurodivergent or just, like, the specific way that my brain works, but, like, craft in a book, Like, I'd be like, okay, cool, I get it.
• 31:21
  Rachel: And then I'd approach a page and be like, this isn't.
• 31:24
  Rachel: No. What?
• 31:24
  Rachel: What?
• 31:26
  Rachel: And I mean, we've been doing this now for six years, so like, our business for, like, six years almost.
• 31:33
  Rachel: Geez.
• 31:35
  Emily: Is that math?
• 31:36
  Thea Verdone: Right?
• 31:37
  Rachel: It's like five and a half, right?
• 31:39
  Thea Verdone: I guess.
• 31:41
  Rachel: Yeah. Because it's, like, as old as Rose.
• 31:45
  Rachel: My daughter.
• 31:45
  Rachel: My daughter's gonna be five in August, and we, like, one.
• 31:49
  Emily: It's one year older than Rose.
• 31:50
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Thea Verdone: Cause we started.
• 31:51
  Rachel: I. I'm like, I. We started the business.
• 31:53
  Rachel: Like, I think we incorporated the month I got pregnant, so.
• 31:58
  Thea Verdone: Oh, really?
• 31:58
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 31:59
  Rachel: Surprise.
• 32:00
  Thea Verdone: Easy for, though.
• 32:02
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Rachel: Anyway, your experience with, like, learning craft and then applying it to the page, do you feel like it's been.
• 32:11
  Rachel: Been this kind of trial and error and you have an instinct that you've learned to, like, listen to and pay attention to?
• 32:18
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. So plot books.
• 32:19
  Thea Verdone: And for that part of the craft, I think it's really common, from what I've heard of friends, that it doesn't really necessarily resonate.
• 32:28
  Thea Verdone: And I felt that way too.
• 32:30
  Thea Verdone: That's why having, like, a sort of chart with the romance beats that I can plug my own points into is a lot easier than me actually trying to hit the beats while I'm writing.
• 32:41
  Thea Verdone: And, um. But as to, like, other craft stuff, I. My favorite book is self editing for.
• 32:48
  Thea Verdone: And I usually read it once a year to, like, make sure I'm following all of those things.
• 32:55
  Thea Verdone: But I did feel that way.
• 32:57
  Thea Verdone: Like, I didn't realize I did have these instincts, and I don't know where they come from if it's just from reading a lot, you know, or just, you know, sometimes you're just more skied towards certain, you know, things.
• 33:09
  Thea Verdone: And I felt like a lot of times when I'd be reading, I'm like, oh, yeah, I do do that.
• 33:13
  Thea Verdone: I just lack confidence in that, you know, so it helped me.
• 33:18
  Thea Verdone: Some people, you know, you get too rigid trying to follow the rules.
• 33:20
  Thea Verdone: But for me, it kind of was like, okay, I need to trust myself.
• 33:23
  Thea Verdone: That's just my personality.
• 33:24
  Thea Verdone: I don't really trust myself to succeed.
• 33:26
  Thea Verdone: I guess imposter syndrome is the worst.
• 33:32
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 33:33
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. So that I guess I can take into.
• 33:35
  Thea Verdone: But I definitely.
• 33:36
  Thea Verdone: Since I.
• 33:37
  Thea Verdone: I do try to keep it in my mind, you know, like that specific specificity.
• 33:42
  Thea Verdone: I don't know if I pronounced that right in the moment.
• 33:44
  Thea Verdone: But that is from that book too, you know, And I feel like it's just really sophisticated, made my writing more sophisticated.
• 33:52
  Thea Verdone: So. Yeah.
• 33:54
  Rachel: Do you feel like.
• 33:55
  Rachel: So as you're talking, we.
• 33:58
  Rachel: We really think of the importance of, like, self trust is really so critical to this whole process.
• 34:05
  Rachel: Um, and then as you were talking, it, like, reminded me a little bit of what we were speaking about earlier, about perfectionism.
• 34:10
  Rachel: Do you feel like the more that you do it and the more that you build the self trust, your perfectionism gets, like, better or worse or, like, easier to.
• 34:18
  Rachel: Easier to work around?
• 34:20
  Thea Verdone: Um, I don't know about you guys, but I feel like it's kind of always there a little bit, especially with the whole imposter syndrome.
• 34:31
  Thea Verdone: I feel like with myself and a lot of friends, like, that perfectionism sometimes gets kind of like, flare of it or whatever because you have this, like, feeling of being an imposter again.
• 34:45
  Thea Verdone: So for me, it does get better.
• 34:48
  Thea Verdone: And I definitely have moved into that role of, like, being like, okay, I'm good at this, you know, but even still, I think often, you know, that, no, I need to, like, get this just right, because if it's not just right, then the book is going to, like, completely fail.
• 35:02
  Thea Verdone: And, you know, so, I don't know.
• 35:05
  Thea Verdone: I have, like, all mental health things of my own going on, so that probably feeds into it too.
• 35:09
  Thea Verdone: But on the whole, yes, I do think it's kind of.
• 35:13
  Thea Verdone: I've learned to trust myself and feel stronger in my instincts and everything.
• 35:18
  Thea Verdone: I love that.
• 35:22
  Emily: Yeah. The best way to build trust is to do the thing.
• 35:26
  Rachel: Gotta keep trying yourself.
• 35:28
  Emily: You can do the thing.
• 35:29
  Emily: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Rachel: Yeah. I'm in.
• 35:31
  Rachel: Like, I'm about to start revisions for my third book.
• 35:34
  Rachel: And the only reason why I'm not freaking out about it is because I've done it twice before, and I'm like, if I could figure that out.
• 35:40
  Emily: I know it's like the last thing a new writer wants to hear.
• 35:43
  Emily: It's like, oh, well, you just have to do the thing to believe you can do the thing.
• 35:45
  Emily: But, like, nothing's ever been more true.
• 35:48
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:49
  Rachel: I'm.
• 35:50
  Rachel: I'm coaching a writer, like one of our wonderful writers in our community right now through a revision.
• 35:56
  Rachel: And, like, the last time I spoke with her, I was like, this sucks.
• 35:59
  Rachel: But, like, the.
• 36:00
  Rachel: The best thing I could tell you is you just have to start doing it.
• 36:04
  Rachel: You're not gonna know how to do.
• 36:05
  Thea Verdone: It until you do it.
• 36:06
  Rachel: And, like, we can make our plan and I can help you as much as I can, but until You.
• 36:12
  Rachel: Until you like, actually put your body through the motions, it just doesn't sink in of like, oh, that's how it works.
• 36:20
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:21
  Thea Verdone: That's actually advice that resonates a lot with me for I. I don't remember where I learned it, but something about like, you're.
• 36:29
  Thea Verdone: Each book, each time you do something, it's going to be better, not worse, because you have that practice.
• 36:37
  Thea Verdone: So, like, if you're doubting yourself, if you just keep going, you are genuinely going to keep improving, improving.
• 36:43
  Thea Verdone: So when imposter syndrome says, like, this sucks, you can at least tell yourself, like, no, the odds are much more likely that it does not, you know, and it's better than what you did before, you know, so.
• 36:54
  Rachel: So, yeah, I'm gonna hold on to that real tight.
• 36:57
  Emily: Yeah.
• 36:57
  Rachel: These next couple weeks.
• 36:59
  Emily: Yeah, you just gotta keep going.
• 37:01
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. Cool.
• 37:05
  Rachel: Well, do you have any, like, you know, on atmosphere, on setting, on writing life in general?
• 37:10
  Rachel: Any like, final takeaways to share with our listeners or.
• 37:15
  Rachel: Or major things you've learned throughout the process?
• 37:18
  Thea Verdone: For my advice, I guess for making a setting that's atmospheric and feels like it's own character is to make it living.
• 37:28
  Thea Verdone: For my current project right now that there's like an ocean that surrounds this castle and it becomes a tidal island during high tide where it's impassable, you know, by road, because the ocean's like swallowed it.
• 37:41
  Thea Verdone: And so even like the ocean itself has this sort of hunger about it in this like, bread that builds each time that tide is high.
• 37:52
  Thea Verdone: And it, like, I bring it into the setting is always alive in there because, like, even when they, I don't know, just, you know, boned or whatever, they're in their song, I'm like, how can I see this?
• 38:05
  Thea Verdone: I know I'm allowed, but good thing, like, my parents still listen to this stuff anyway.
• 38:14
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. So it'll be like all romantical or hot or whatever.
• 38:17
  Thea Verdone: But then if I want to build, like.
• 38:19
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, they had this great scene here and there's sort of built intimacy.
• 38:24
  Thea Verdone: But because this is gothic and everyone has secrets and all, there's actually this like, insecurity that's building back into.
• 38:31
  Thea Verdone: I'll have like, he can hear the tide and it seems so close.
• 38:35
  Thea Verdone: It feels like it's right beneath the window.
• 38:37
  Thea Verdone: And that like, brings that whole claustrophobia.
• 38:40
  Thea Verdone: So, yeah, just try to like, literally think of it as a living thing.
• 38:45
  Thea Verdone: What does the setting want?
• 38:47
  Thea Verdone: You know, just like, what does a character want?
• 38:50
  Thea Verdone: And at least for the ocean in this case, it's to Consume.
• 38:55
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. And for the wisteria as an example for never leave, never a lie.
• 39:02
  Thea Verdone: I feel like it's also this point of, like, sort of like mirroring what happens with Alec's uncle.
• 39:10
  Thea Verdone: It's like this benevolent thing that it saves him and then, you know, it's broken, but then it builds back and grows, and then it actually brings back Alex music in the end.
• 39:24
  Thea Verdone: So it's like a gift, you know, so like a paternal gift.
• 39:28
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Emily: Oh, that's really cool.
• 39:31
  Emily: Giving me all my brains, like, project, like, all these ideas.
• 39:37
  Emily: No, that's great.
• 39:39
  Emily: Well, thank you so much, Taeya.
• 39:41
  Thea Verdone: This was.
• 39:41
  Emily: This was really fun.
• 39:43
  Thea Verdone: Yeah, it was so fun.
• 39:45
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. And I just want to say, like, seriously, when I heard about you using my writing in the class, it was literally something I'd never imagined.
• 39:53
  Thea Verdone: And it was the biggest achievement, I think, of all that I had.
• 39:58
  Thea Verdone: Like, it just was such an honor because, like, craft is so important to me and like, the art of writing and stuff.
• 40:04
  Thea Verdone: So thank you very much for, you know, seeing beauty in my work and thinking it's actually worthy of teaching someone and then for having me on to talk to you, you guys, of course.
• 40:14
  Emily: It was such an honor.
• 40:16
  Thea Verdone: It was.
• 40:16
  Rachel: And like, you know, I. I know we talked about perfectionism, imposter syndrome, so I. I can't speak to the root of that, but I can say, like, I really enjoyed the book and.
• 40:26
  Rachel: And I. I really wanted to highlight, like, how much it meant to me to read those p. Like, you can see that effort come through in the pages and it just results in such a beautiful story, like, every aspect, the.
• 40:41
  Rachel: The romance, the setting, the atmosphere, the mental health representation, the.
• 40:47
  Rachel: The way we didn't even cover these other things.
• 40:49
  Rachel: But there's like a whole backstory timeline also, which Emily writes in her books too.
• 40:55
  Rachel: So, like, there's so many different pieces of that book that really stood out to me and.
• 41:01
  Rachel: And it.
• 41:01
  Rachel: It was right at home in our examples for that.
• 41:04
  Rachel: For that class.
• 41:07
  Thea Verdone: That means.
• 41:08
  Thea Verdone: Thank you.
• 41:09
  Rachel: Well, to.
• 41:10
  Rachel: To kind of send us off here.
• 41:12
  Rachel: Can you tell readers or listeners where they can find you?
• 41:16
  Rachel: And I know you have two kind of upcoming big news things.
• 41:20
  Thea Verdone: Yeah. So I actually have the audiobook of Never Leave, Never Lie coming out in July.
• 41:27
  7: 15 Pre orders are just recently live if you want to pick it up.
• 41:34
  7: That's coming soon.
• 41:35
  7: Alex Kidd is playing Ian, which I know, like, some audiobook readers are like, oh my gosh, this is my guy for like, you know, each narrator.
• 41:45
  7: And then Curtis Michael Holland is playing Alec.
• 41:48
  7: And they both sound like, so perfect and they're going to crush it.
• 41:51
  7: And I'm really excited for everyone to.
• 41:54
  7: To hear it.
• 41:55
  7: And then in general, my book, what Death Forgets, which is like another, you know, mm, modern gothic romance.
• 42:02
  7: It will come out this year.
• 42:04
  7: 100%.
• 42:04
  Rachel: Yes.
• 42:05
  Thea Verdone: I'm thinking it will be September to October, but don't tell anyone this year.
• 42:12
  Thea Verdone: But it fits the vibe of release and I think it'll be then.
• 42:18
  Thea Verdone: Yeah.
• 42:19
  Rachel: Well, we will put links to your website in the show notes and as, as soon as what Death Forgets comes out, I am there.
• 42:27
  Rachel: I'm going to be reading it.
• 42:28
  Thea Verdone: I can't.
• 42:30
  Emily: I can't wait to check out your stuff.
• 42:31
  Emily: Thank you so much, Thea.
• 42:34
  Thea Verdone: Thank you.
• 42:36
  Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 42:41
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 42:45
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 42:50
  Emily: Link in the show notes.
• 42:51
  Emily: We'll see you there.