Latest / Simply Christ Podcast / The Study of Eternal Security Part 3 | Simply Christ Ministries

Transcript

The Study of Eternal Security Part 3 | Simply Christ Ministries · Simply Christ Podcast

0:09
Christ podcast hosted by Leon Martin, along with Aaron Keaton,
0:13
Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock and Dan Blatz.
0:16
Let's get right to it. All right, welcome to our
0:21
Wednesday morning Bible study. Now hope y'all are awake.
0:28
Yeah, so we're broadcasting live on YouTube and Facebook this
0:34
morning. For some reason, the link that
0:35
takes us for you, takes you to this platform is not working.
0:41
I'm not sure what the view is, so we'll have to look into that.
0:43
A couple of guys that would be on but can't be, so you'll have
0:47
to watch us on the live streams, of course.
0:51
Anyway, before we get into a too deep here, I'll have Dan open us
0:56
with a word of prayer. Father, we come to you this
0:59
morning thankful that we can gather digitally like this,
1:04
thankful that we can gather around Your Word.
1:07
And we do pray God that You would help us by Your Spirit to
1:11
speak about these things in a way.
1:13
But it's helpful in a way that edifies, in a way that builds
1:17
people up. We ask God that as we speak of
1:21
things of security, conditional or otherwise, that it would be
1:25
an honor to you and that people would walk away from here
1:28
motivated, full of purpose, and confident in their salvation and
1:34
confident in their desire to stay put in Christ.
1:38
We thank you for your grace and mercy.
1:40
We pray you bless us as we speak today in Jesus name.
1:45
Amen. All right.
1:47
Yeah. So it's been a good study so far
1:55
and as we and to go through these different verses and
1:59
stuff, it's been it's been informative for me.
2:03
First two weeks ago, we kind of talked about, you know, the, the
2:07
once saved, always saved thing and last week kind of about this
2:12
kind of reformed view. And today we'll talk about some
2:18
more of that a little bit. And then we'll talk about the
2:21
conditional security kind of thing.
2:24
And as I was looking at that's some of those verses this
2:27
morning and just just thinking about the whole thing in
2:31
general, I wonder how many times if we wouldn't have these these
2:36
kind of boxes to put ourselves in and say why I'm of this kind
2:40
or of this belief or that belief.
2:43
And we would just look at these, these verses, all of them
2:46
together. I think we'd be better.
2:49
I think we'd be better friends. A lot of a lot of like in other
2:53
words. So when I, when I, when someone
2:54
says that, you know, they're, they're, we put them in the one
2:57
saved always save box or whatever.
3:00
And then we we look at them to the exclusion of some of the
3:04
others where if we were actually to to sit down and talk about
3:09
it, I think a lot of us would find ourselves maybe on the same
3:12
page more so than what we would then what we would really think.
3:17
We say, well, no, you know, he's this way.
3:20
So obviously he can't read the verses that that talk about
3:23
conditional the verses that have an if in that they're going to
3:25
be a real problem for him. Or maybe not.
3:28
I don't, I don't know that everyone sits on that extreme
3:31
view of one side or the other completely.
3:34
So I just, I don't, I don't know, I think it's, I think it's
3:37
neat to look at both sides with an open mind and just let the
3:43
verses say, say what you do that we did.
3:46
There's obviously some of both sides of that.
3:48
So anyway, it's been, it's been good and encouraging for me.
3:53
You know, you look at that some of these verses that I don't
3:57
know it's they were confident the the disciples, they were,
4:01
they were confident in the power of God.
4:03
There's there's no doubt about it.
4:05
So anyway, we're going to we're going to tear right into it
4:09
here. We will start.
4:13
We're going to look at first John 219.
4:17
That'll be the first. And we're, we're still kind of
4:21
looking at the, the reformed view of the perseverance of the
4:25
Saints, where the belief generally would be that you
4:32
know, that you are a believer in that, in that you will persevere
4:39
unto the end. If you're persevering to the
4:42
end, you know, it's, it's probably actually a little bit
4:45
of a uncertain stance because you don't know till you get to
4:49
the end. So anyway, so first John 219
4:54
says they went out from but they were not of us.
4:59
For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued
5:03
with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest that
5:08
they were not of us. And if you look at the the
5:13
context there in first John regarding this, he's talking
5:16
about these Antichrist because if you read verse 18, the one
5:20
before it says little children, it is the last time.
5:23
And as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come.
5:27
Even now are there many Antichrist whereby we know that
5:32
it is the last time and they that it says they went out from
5:35
us, but we're not of us. So anyway, just your thoughts on
5:40
on that verse. It's, yeah, I mean that their
5:45
opinion is that they went away because they were not one of
5:49
them. If they would have been one of
5:50
them, in other words, a believer, then they would have
5:52
stayed with them. So what do you make of that,
5:54
Andrew? Nope, I had it argument to.
6:04
I mean, isn't it just kind of a fact though?
6:08
Like a reality? Like if if you're a believer,
6:14
then you're going to stick with Christ.
6:16
If you're not, if you go out and you leave, you can say he was
6:19
never part of it or whatever, but that doesn't really change
6:24
the word of God the way I interpreted it.
6:29
All I'm saying about where I don't think we should be secure
6:35
is that if you're rejecting Christ or if you're trying
6:40
something else or adding to the gospel of Christ, at least as
6:44
we're completing him, everything else has to consistent with
6:50
that. And so if the victory is in
6:57
Christ, then nowhere else. And I don't know why we would
7:00
try to bring security to outside of Christ.
7:06
You know, we're trying to justify people that don't
7:08
believe and this verse says, you know, these people that were
7:14
Antichrist, which means they were not for Christ completely.
7:19
They ended up leaving. We said, well, they were never
7:21
really of us. OK, fine.
7:23
I don't. I don't really know what to say
7:24
to that. Yeah.
7:27
Still doesn't use the fact that there shouldn't be any security
7:30
outside of Christ, right? Yeah, can't, can't reiterate.
7:36
Strengthens that fact for sure. Yeah, so I think the key, the
7:42
key is like you already said, you know, he's the context is
7:46
the Antichrist people that are saying that, you know, Christ
7:50
actually did not come in the flesh and he did not actually
7:53
die on the cross and resurrect. I think in verse 20 I when I
7:59
read this verse 20 kind of stands out to me.
8:02
It says, but ye, he's talking about the believers there.
8:06
He says that ye have an unction from the Holy One and you know
8:10
all things. There's many scriptures.
8:13
I was studying a few other scriptures and there's many
8:16
times in the scripture that that talks about, you know, false
8:20
prophets, false teachers. You know, I kind of put
8:24
Antichrist people with the spirit of Antichrist in that
8:28
same box. So not really a box, but in that
8:32
same kind of thing, but he says, but ye have an unction from the
8:37
Holy One and you know all things.
8:39
In other words, when we are born of the Spirit, we receive the
8:44
Holy Spirit and when you receive the Holy Spirit, you can't be an
8:48
Antichrist. And so I think that's kind of a
8:52
good point as well. And it's a very obvious that it
8:58
says they're that they might be made fat manifest that they were
9:04
not all of us. In other words, this had to
9:08
happen that they went out from us.
9:11
They were not actually received Christ it but it had to be
9:15
manifested in other words, made known that these people here
9:20
were actually not of us. And so they left because of
9:24
that, because when you are not fully trusting in Christ, you
9:30
can stay in a, in a church setting and stuff for a pretty
9:33
long time. You can fake it for a long time,
9:36
but some people might. The whole lies, I don't know,
9:40
you know, pretty close. But at some point it's going to
9:45
probably be made manifest in some way that you're actually
9:47
not believing in Christ and you're not following Jesus,
9:52
you're just faking it. So that's kind of what I see
9:56
here. Yeah, that's good, Dad.
9:59
Yeah. I think that was that was really
10:00
well said, Melvin. I think that the point is just
10:04
as you guys have both pointed out already that he's trying to
10:07
show who the Antichrist is, and this may be slightly off topic.
10:10
One of the most profound things I find about this verse is that
10:14
the Antichrist is a Christian or Antichrist are Christians.
10:18
They are of us. They know they're they were not.
10:21
These ones are not actually of us.
10:22
We know that they were fake Christians from the beginning
10:25
and that they were there to try to usurp or to try to tear down
10:28
or whatever reason they were there for because it says that
10:31
they deny that Jesus is the Christ and so on.
10:34
So these are not actual Christians that have left the
10:37
faith. And that's what this verse is
10:39
basically saying is that there was some people of us so
10:43
Christians, so-called with quote UN quote, Christians that were
10:47
in our midst, but they were never actually Christians.
10:50
And so this is not about whether or not you can lose your
10:54
salvation. This is not about whether some
10:56
people, if everybody who leaves the church was always just
10:59
pretending or they were all faking.
11:02
This is specifically talking about a group of people that are
11:05
Antichrist in their persuasion or in their understanding, I
11:09
guess. And it's a little more specific
11:12
than just someone who didn't continue walking with the Lord.
11:17
Yeah. And that's a good point that
11:19
it's, it's not somebody that that lost or walked away or
11:23
stepped away, but somebody that never was.
11:26
So that that's a good distinction there.
11:33
Let's go to the next verse here. We're going to touch on this one
11:37
real quick yet. Matthew 2413.
11:40
This says it about as clear as a reformed doctrine.
11:44
Whatever could but he that shall endure unto the end, the same
11:49
shall be saved. I guess that that's probably
11:52
pretty well said in that regard, but I was I was looking earlier
11:59
this morning in trying to see if I can find it real quick.
12:04
So in Jude, Jude one says, dude, the servant of Jesus Christ and
12:10
brother of James to them that are sanctified by God the Father
12:14
and preserved in Jesus Christ. I just you know, when you think
12:19
about somebody being preserved, you know that that sounds pretty
12:25
secure in my mind. You know that when we can
12:30
something we preserve it. It's put away and it's just I
12:34
mean, it's, it's there, it's going to be there.
12:35
It's going to be good when you come to pick it up.
12:37
But anyway, any thoughts on this verse here Andrew?
12:47
Oops, I got him, He made it. I was just saying, if I was
12:51
like, again, put ourselves in God's situation, how much sense
12:56
would it make for God to say, you know what?
12:58
You can believe from me one time, but after that, I don't
13:02
care. They're just not really make any
13:06
sense. If I'm building a Kingdom and
13:09
then I would get people to join my Kingdom, but then some of the
13:15
people that joined my Kingdom were like, you know what?
13:17
I don't like this Kingdom and they start working against my
13:21
Kingdom and they speak against what I speak of.
13:23
They start doing other things and they're bringing in other
13:26
kingdoms. Now I'm going to my kingdom's
13:29
going to be divided and for me to just say, you know what, you
13:32
don't have to stay with my Kingdom, but you're still going
13:34
to be my Kingdom. You'll see what it's like.
13:37
That's that's essentially what we're saying is that if we're
13:41
trying to bring justification to someone that has put aside the
13:45
Kingdom of God, right, whether this time of the Kingdom of
13:49
heaven or God or whatever, I'm referring to the Kingdom of God.
13:52
If we are saying that we can reject the Kingdom of God and
13:57
join another Kingdom, preach another gospel, be an enemy of
14:01
the cross, like Paul said, you know what you Judaizers and what
14:05
all your things you be. This is the real problem is
14:08
you're an enemy of the cross. The cross sanctifies everything,
14:11
but you're saying it doesn't. So you hate the glory that's in
14:14
the cross. You hate it.
14:15
You don't like it. You want to bring.
14:17
You want, you want something for yourself.
14:20
You can't. Yeah.
14:21
And for him to just say, you know what?
14:26
You can. You can be an enemy of the
14:28
cross. You can go after other gospels
14:30
which are not our gospel. You can preach doctrines of
14:36
devils and all that. You're still my Kingdom even
14:39
though you're promoting another one, the native, any logical
14:45
Kingdom builder. What you do that, like it would
14:48
say, look, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not going
14:52
to promote my Kingdom, then you're not of this Kingdom.
14:56
Right. Yeah.
14:58
And, and it's interesting to me is that the context here once
15:02
again in Matthew, it's talking about Antichrist.
15:08
It it's not calling them exactly that here, but the context is
15:11
very similar to what we just read earlier.
15:16
Yeah, that that's where I got Scott's going to point out dude,
15:19
he's talking about the end times, false prophets.
15:22
I think he's what he calls it the is what he's looking at
15:26
here. But he says but he that she'll
15:29
endure to the end is the same should be saved.
15:32
He's talking about the, if you look back up, you talk about
15:35
rumors of war. He's talking about the end times
15:38
will be rumors of wars, will be pestilence and all these things.
15:43
I don't think it's even talking so much about salvation here.
15:47
But he says, but he that shall endure until the end, the same
15:51
shall be saved. In other words, he might be kind
15:54
of referring to that, you know, he says many profits shall rise
16:00
and should deceive many. And because iniquity should
16:02
abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
16:06
He's just saying, look, let's just keep our eyes on what
16:11
matters. And that is Christ and and not
16:14
so much about, I guess we really pick these things out and say,
16:18
Oh yeah, this is really talking about salvation.
16:21
It is to some degree. But it's like when you're in the
16:25
thick of things like, let's say even like you can use an analogy
16:29
like your marriage, you know, you're.
16:31
When? You're in the thick of your
16:33
marriage and things are not going like like it should be,
16:37
right? And you're fighting with your
16:38
spouse or. Or.
16:41
Your love is glassy cold for your spouse.
16:43
You're not just going to throw in the towel, right?
16:46
I mean, you're going to endure to some degree.
16:50
You're going to have to right? Because if we everybody would
16:53
just throw in the towel as soon as it gets hard, there would
16:56
there wouldn't be anybody married anymore.
16:58
So that's kind of the picture I see to some degree here.
17:03
So. Yeah.
17:06
That's good. Yeah, it's talking about a very
17:08
specific period of time. Many people believe this to be
17:13
70 AD There are some things in this passage that seem to refer
17:17
to Jerusalem and and the city of Jerusalem being destroyed.
17:22
And so some of it could very much apply to 70 AD when the
17:25
Romans came in and destroyed the city.
17:27
But there's also a lot of indications here that it's a
17:30
future thing when the world is going to be in difficulty and
17:34
there's going to be the time of Jacob's trouble, and the world
17:37
will be gathered together against Jerusalem and against
17:40
his anointed and so on and so forth.
17:41
He's talking about being in Judea, flee to the mountains,
17:44
being on the housetop, don't go back into your house, just get
17:47
out. And so he's talking about a very
17:49
specific period of time at this point, whether you believe it's
17:53
70AD or some future event. But those that endure faithfully
17:58
with God to the end will be saved.
18:00
Those that give up, those that throw in the towel, those that
18:03
follow false teachers, those ones will not endure.
18:06
They won't say be saved in that sense.
18:09
So again, not talking about eternal salvation through
18:12
endurance, it's talking about enduring through this great time
18:16
of persecution. So it it doesn't seem to really
18:18
apply in my understanding. Yeah.
18:22
Well. I.
18:23
I'm glad, I'm glad you brought that out because if again, if
18:26
you look at the context, that is exactly what it's talking about.
18:29
And I think is a Matthew 24 without looking.
18:32
Is that part of the Olivet discourse that they call that
18:36
Jesus was teaching that the preterists kind of hang their
18:39
hat on? This would be the yeah.
18:42
So yeah, anyway, that we're not get into that.
18:46
That's a totally separate view, but we're separate discussion.
18:52
I was wondering and, and maybe now now's not necessarily the
18:55
time, but so so when you look around before we go on to the,
19:00
the next kind of view or position or doctrine that a lot
19:04
of people camp in when, when the Bible talks about the elect.
19:09
And if you look at a lot of the cross references to the verses
19:14
that we were reading here, the word actually never really came
19:16
up. I was hoping it would and but
19:19
we, you know, I should have put maybe a couple of verses in
19:22
there about that. So that topic gets touched.
19:24
But a lot of people look at the word elect in the sense of, you
19:31
know, security of the believer, right?
19:33
I mean, that's it's somebody that Jesus appointed or picked
19:38
and said you are elect and therefore nothing can get in
19:43
your way or whatever. I don't know exactly.
19:45
I was just interested in in your opinion on that.
19:48
We don't have to discuss it because sometimes it takes a
19:50
minute for you to gather your thoughts together on that.
19:54
But if anything has, if anyone has anything on the top of their
19:56
head regarding that, that word, I'd be interested in hearing it.
20:02
And if not, that's fine. We can talk about it later.
20:05
Yeah, I I do. Yeah, I figured you would.
20:08
Go ahead, I'll. I'll get pretty defensive on
20:11
that one, but if you just read the book of Romans whole
20:20
chapters, verse by verse all the way through chapter 98910 and
20:27
11:12, and you just follow the story, you'll understand that
20:35
God has predetermined before the foundation of the world that he
20:40
would elect all those that would put the faith in Christ and that
20:45
the election, it has a lot more to do with nations and bring
20:52
salvation to your Gentiles. It was predetermined before the
20:57
foundational world that Jesus Christ would come and that the
21:00
Jews would reject him. The mysteries now reveal, and
21:03
the Gentiles would be brought in, grafted in wild olive
21:06
branch. That was predetermined,
21:08
preselected. That's my understanding, right?
21:12
Yeah. It's not complicated.
21:13
Just read it, you know, I don't like when people get like this
21:18
to Matthew 24th. It's a good example.
21:22
The reason I pointed out that I don't think it has.
21:27
Even if it was, even if you take it out of context like most
21:31
people do, it still doesn't say that salvation is by works or
21:37
that somehow works. Like you know what I mean?
21:40
Like the book of Romans will tell you everything about
21:44
Calvin's and it's not what it's saying, but because in the same
21:49
boat it's actually arguing the opposite.
21:55
But there is it passages that the people used to justify a
21:58
lake like all summer. Not well.
22:02
It is this very boat that is making the argument that
22:05
everyone that would call upon his name, Chuck would say.
22:09
And he says the three, it's like, who can note the mind?
22:13
Like who was his towns? Who really advised him?
22:17
Who came up with such a brilliant plan that he is able
22:21
to have mercy about all with all the wisdom and the blurry like,
22:25
yeah, that's what the book of Romans is about, is to actually
22:31
undo. Oh, some people are called, you
22:34
know, he says there's no respecter of persons anymore.
22:37
The name anybody and whosoever he ends up in in the very in
22:42
chapter 10 in between those the 9:00 and 9:00 and 11:00 is the
22:46
main Calvinistic doctrine chapters in 10.
22:50
It says because of this reality, because of this Gentile election
22:55
deal, whosoever calls upon a name shall be saved.
23:01
How do you how do you just not see that?
23:04
Like how do you just get to that and go, Oh, that's not what that
23:07
you know. How can you keep be consistent
23:10
with your Calvinistic election called idea when he just said,
23:14
you know, because of all this, whosoever took like, how close
23:18
are you to salvation? It's right at your mouth if you
23:20
confess. I mean, oh, drives me crazy.
23:25
Yeah. Well, I think what happens is
23:26
when we look at scriptures with just like that.
23:30
You, you know. And not have an open mind.
23:33
I think that's what happens because if I read through all
23:38
the scriptures here that talk about the elect it I get the
23:43
view or the picture of is that it's who.
23:46
Puts their. Faith in Christ and in Christ
23:50
alone and is born of the Spirit. It says in John three, you are
23:54
born in the flesh, but you must be born of the Spirit.
23:58
And if you're born of the Spirit, then you are the elect
24:02
like you're the Saints. The Bible uses many word time
24:05
uses the word Saints. So you are the elect.
24:08
So in other words, it's not that God elects you or calls you, but
24:13
because you have received salvation through God's only
24:19
begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who died and resurrected for you.
24:23
Because you have received that and believed that and confessed
24:27
that with your mouth, by faith, you become the elite, right?
24:31
And that's just that. That's what I see, so I don't.
24:38
Passage in first John that we went through, that they went out
24:41
from us because they were not all of us.
24:43
That's I was going to mention a little bit more of this because
24:47
even in this, whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall
24:50
be saved. A Calvinist's mind is trying to
24:53
figure out who God is elected and who he has not.
24:57
And if you call upon the name of the Lord, then oh, then you must
25:00
be one of the ones that God has chosen.
25:02
So it's not so much as an invitation for everybody to come
25:07
to Christ for them. In some, some people's minds,
25:09
it's rather a revealing of who God has chosen.
25:13
So whosoever call upon the name of the Lord, does he call?
25:16
OK, then he's one of the elect. It's not so much giving
25:19
invitation to everybody. And same with first John there.
25:22
If you don't think about it strictly as an Antichrist
25:25
revealing passage, you then start to think, oh, then if this
25:29
guy is of us, he's going to stay with us.
25:31
If he's not, I don't know, maybe Melvin's not one of us because
25:34
we're not sure yet if he's going to stick around with us or not,
25:37
right? Because if he all of a sudden
25:39
departs and is not of us, then we know.
25:41
OK, well, then he wasn't one of the elect.
25:44
That's not at all what the passage is referring to.
25:46
But that is how it ends up being read.
25:48
Because they base almost all of their salvation on the
25:52
preordained for not the foreknowledge of God, but the
25:56
pre the decree of God from before the foundation of the
26:00
world. He decreed all things as they
26:02
would be and he chose particular people that would be saved.
26:06
And now he's going through the the unveiling, unreal, unreal
26:12
unveiling of history and showing who he has chosen and who he has
26:16
not chosen. And it's this weird game of God
26:19
has God has done something before the world began and now
26:24
he's just slowly showing us what he has done.
26:26
But we really have no choice in the matter.
26:28
We have no will in the matter. There's nothing we can do to
26:31
change or thwart any of it. It's all predetermined.
26:34
And God is just revealing now. He's not of us because he wasn't
26:39
one of the chosen. He's calling upon the name of
26:41
the Lord, so he's one of the chosen.
26:43
But ultimately we won't really know until the day of judgement
26:46
because I don't, I don't know. It's, it's a weird train of
26:49
thought to get into. But when you when you base
26:51
almost all of your salvation on the election of God, God chose
26:56
some, he damned others. Then it starts to be a weird
26:59
mind game of who did he choose and who didn't he choose.
27:02
Yeah, I that's good, Dad. And and you're, you're only
27:07
exactly the same vein there as what I was thinking because
27:11
there's a verse in Second Timothy, chapter 2, verse 10
27:16
that says, therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake
27:22
that they may also obtain the salvation, which is in Christ
27:27
Jesus in eternal glory. So he's doing this for the
27:31
elect's sake, whoever they are, that those elect could come to
27:36
Christ, you know, So I mean, if if it's the elect that that we
27:44
now know have chosen Christ and it's not, it can't be those that
27:48
still can choose Christ. You know, this is obviously it
27:51
says that they may also obtain the salvation.
27:53
So he's talking about the elect as some that have not yet chosen
27:57
Christ. Am I misreading that?
28:00
But you know, the problem that we have, I think is, is we don't
28:04
see the whole picture. We look through a glass darkly.
28:06
So therefore, and then our mind comes up with these different
28:09
things to try to reconcile that difference that we can't, that
28:13
we can't see. Argument to that is.
28:17
My argument to that is that we are all elected God.
28:22
In Christ Jesus we. Are God died for the world and
28:29
I'll go as I'll I'll go this far.
28:33
God can play the movie of the human race and play it back and
28:38
he can also take that little mouse thing and move it forward
28:42
and see what he can probably go and see what happened how it's
28:45
going to play out and maybe he's just play replaying the movie.
28:48
But there's too many verses that say we have a choice yeah can't
28:53
believe that God just create preordained some to be safe and
28:59
some for damnation of hell. If that's who God is that I
29:03
don't want any part. No, I I've I've heard that
29:07
illustration before. Where our view is, we're
29:11
watching a game on the TV and football game in real life.
29:16
So we are sitting here on the edge of our seat seeing which
29:19
team's going to win. But God can Fast forward.
29:21
He can slide that thing all the way to the finish line and all
29:25
the way to the beginning and see the exact picture.
29:28
Not that not that he isn't going to influence that game in any
29:31
way necessarily, but he already knows that's where we get a
29:35
disconnect. We can't, we can't cover again
29:38
that in a lot of ways, especially in this election
29:41
thing, It's yeah. But I, I, you said it very well.
29:45
It's it's yeah. The election is in Christ Jesus,
29:49
not who is going to be elected so.
29:52
But can it both be true though? Yeah.
29:55
They can. It's OK for God to see who's
29:59
going to choose. And I'm like for sure that still
30:02
doesn't take away our choice. That's.
30:03
Right. Exactly.
30:05
Yeah. In first Peter he says elect
30:10
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, where the
30:13
Calvinist would say it's an unconditional election, meaning
30:16
that that there was no conditions placed on anything,
30:19
right. And so here clearly in that
30:21
passage he says they are elect according to so the condition is
30:25
God's foreknowledge for knowledge of what exactly we
30:28
could argue about. But there there was some
30:30
condition placed there right? Well, the the condition is that
30:34
Christ is sufficient. Guarantees that I ask elect why
30:41
aren't we all? Like I think it's more of a Jew
30:44
and a Gentile justification for God.
30:49
God is justifying himself to bring salvation to a people that
30:53
are not his people. That's the whole argument in
30:55
Chapter 9. Those that are not my people,
30:58
I'm going to make my people. And he brings the prophecies in
31:00
about how he said the people that are not mine, I'm going to
31:03
make his and I'm going to he's going to glory in that.
31:06
And he talks about that, how we're the Potter.
31:10
He's the Potter and we're the clay.
31:12
How can we reply against the Potter?
31:14
He's he can making one vessel of honor, another of his honor.
31:18
He can, and then, you know, that's where they get it.
31:22
See, he makes one for damnation, like Pharaoh, like all, and it
31:26
mentions that about Pharaoh. But keep reading.
31:30
It says, therefore he's able to bring salvation 'cause he is the
31:34
Potter, we are the clay. He has the right and the
31:38
authority to bring salvation to the Gentiles.
31:41
And in fact, he has preordained that before the foundation of
31:43
the world. That's what I see when I read it
31:46
all the way through, is that he's justified himself to redeem
31:51
wicked Gentiles that are not his people whatsoever, strangers,
31:56
foreigners, aliens, alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel,
32:00
totally separate. And he's justifying them.
32:03
And the Israelites are going what, you know, we are your
32:06
people. And he's like, yeah, I am.
32:10
I'm. I orchestrated A mysterious,
32:13
amazing, brilliant plan that brings mercy to all and.
32:19
I don't know what's. Wrong with that.
32:21
Everything's right. That's that's good.
32:24
That is good. All right, we're going to shift
32:28
gears midway through here. I don't even like this term.
32:32
I hate it actually, but we're going to talk about what
32:36
someones call conditional security.
32:39
There's a condition about a lot of people in this camp.
32:45
The core belief is that a person who has truly been saved and
32:51
later forfeit salvation by unbelief or by abandoning
32:56
Christ. And so salvation is secure as
33:00
long as somebody continues in faith.
33:06
You know, of course, this camp would include warnings in the
33:14
Scripture that's that's our directed to believers to stay in
33:17
the faith. You know, apostates is a real
33:22
possibility. And obviously God doesn't force
33:26
somebody to remain in Christ that it is obviously a choice.
33:33
And before I hit Hebrews 6, where we're going to kind of go
33:38
to we we discussed this at length back when we went through
33:41
Hebrews. I remember this part of the
33:42
discussion really well. It was it was a good, good time.
33:47
Anything else about this kind of view that that anyone that comes
33:51
to the company of mind that you'd want to talk about before
33:53
we hit any of the verses exactly.
33:58
As far as what? Just just this view like I so,
34:03
so basically what I said is this, this is a conditional
34:08
view. So we're, we're talking about
34:10
doctrine. Now, this is a conditional view.
34:12
And I, a lot of people like if I see an argument on Facebook
34:18
about eternal security, often times the ones they've always
34:24
saved crowd will stay. Well, those that are
34:28
conditioned, you know, if it's works that that gets you there,
34:31
then it's just you. It's just you.
34:33
God is not in the equation. There's no security.
34:35
You know, if you sin, you fall away.
34:37
And you know, if it's the, the, the quitting of sin that moves
34:42
you right with God that if you sin once or whatever, you're out
34:45
of there. That's not what we're saying
34:47
here. We're saying that we're talking
34:49
about the security of the believer, not security of the
34:53
unbeliever. Yeah.
34:54
I got something to say. Yeah, go.
34:56
Ahead. There, it's conditional.
34:59
The condition is that Jesus Christ had to come and die and
35:03
rise again. That's the condition.
35:07
He had to, He had to, God had to come and be made flesh and he
35:10
had to die and rise again to redeem us.
35:15
Outside of that, there's no condition outside of that that
35:19
will secure you. And that's where I stand where I
35:24
have a problem is if you go away from that, that's, that's just
35:28
black and white as I notice it. The condition for you to go to
35:34
heaven is to put your faith and trust in the one that died and
35:37
rose again. That's the condition.
35:40
That's right. Anything else all right.
35:46
I had something there, if you don't mind the I grew up as a
35:51
Mennonite, and Mennonites would definitely believe in a
35:54
conditional salvation if they believed in salvation at all.
35:59
Most people I find that fall into the conditional security
36:03
camp are people who are basing their salvation upon their works
36:07
and upon their church attendance and upon their faithfulness.
36:11
And so they're in and out. You know, there's a, a local
36:13
church that's kind of a culty one called the Church of God.
36:17
And they'll talk about how they haven't sinned for five years
36:20
and six months and 3033 days or something.
36:24
And then if they do sin, if the church catches them in a sin and
36:28
they have to be exposed, then they have to get re saved.
36:32
And it's, it's completely based on how they live and how they
36:35
perform. And that's where as soon as
36:37
people hear that, I believe that there are warnings to stay in
36:41
the faith or else then they think right away exactly like
36:45
you said, that I mean, you have to continue to be good or else
36:50
you won't be safe. And that's where I think we can
36:53
clarify some of these things. There are people, some
36:55
Methodists and Wesleyans, as you've written in the bottom
36:58
here, and Mennonites who believe in a conditional security, but
37:02
their security is based on their performing to the status quo of
37:07
whatever denomination they're in.
37:09
Meaning, you're going to continue walking the way that we
37:11
have predicated that you should walk.
37:14
You're going to keep going to church.
37:15
You're going to keep paying your ties.
37:17
You're going to keep dressing right.
37:18
You're going to keep on and on and on the list of things.
37:21
And if they see you, whatever it might be, whether it's smoking
37:25
or drinking or you've committed some sin or you've maybe gotten
37:28
divorced or something, all that's too bad.
37:30
They must have lost their salvation.
37:32
And we're not talking about that at all here in this group.
37:36
We're talking about where is your faith in for salvation?
37:40
Andrew said it plainly. We have our salvation securely
37:44
in Christ. He died for us.
37:46
That's the only security we ever have, and it's the security we
37:49
have throughout all eternity, and it is absolutely secure.
37:53
The only thing we're saying is that some people might decide
37:57
they no longer trust in that thing.
37:59
They no longer have their faith resting in Christ, and they put
38:03
their faith elsewhere. And because we don't believe in
38:06
this election type of thing where God chooses some and dams
38:10
others, he we believe that Christ died for all and that if
38:14
you trust Him, you can be saved and you will be saved.
38:17
And we also believe that God is very much involved in keeping
38:20
you in the faith and he's going to bring these kinds of studies
38:24
into your life. He's going to bring warning
38:26
signs. He might bring an accident or
38:28
some other thing to wake you up and say, hey, you need to
38:31
continue to believe and he's going to keep you that way.
38:34
So it's, I feel like it's the most well balanced view.
38:39
And it's not the conditional security of the Methodist or the
38:41
Mennonite. From my from my understanding,
38:44
it's a security in Christ and it's the security of the
38:48
believer, not the unbeliever, as Leon already pointed out.
38:52
Well, if you're relying on being elected or called from God, how
38:56
do you know? And you can't really take that
38:58
to the bank and deposit it on your behalf of your sins.
39:02
In the same way with what you're saying, Dan, about your works,
39:06
if you're trying to keep right with God by doing this or doing
39:10
that and making sure that you're in the faith in some way, then
39:14
you can't take that to the bank. But relying putting your faith
39:18
and trust in Christ and in Christ alone, what Jesus has
39:21
done, died, resurrected, is alive, sitting on the right hand
39:25
of the Father that you can take to the bank.
39:29
That's the way I see it. Yeah, that's.
39:32
Good that that's the distinction I was looking for because like
39:37
like Dan, you mentioned, you know, if if we don't do the
39:40
right things, the way that that a lot of us grew up and I think
39:44
this is common in religion in general.
39:47
Is that like, so for us, if we would, if we would wear a hat
39:54
that had too wide of a brim or not wide enough of a brim, or if
39:57
we had, we were supposed to wear suspenders, not belts.
40:01
And if we would have wore a belt, that would have put our
40:04
salvation in jeopardy. Really, that's what we were
40:06
taught. And so when we think about
40:11
conditional security, that is not what we're talking about.
40:14
Then you made it very clear. But it's not just sin that that
40:18
throws us a curve in this, in this view.
40:21
Oftentimes, I know Andrew can talk at length about some of the
40:25
things that he thought legitimately.
40:28
Would separate him from God by the clothing he wore.
40:33
Not necessarily just, you know, adultery or something like that.
40:37
But like if he would have wore that T-shirt, he would have, I
40:41
mean, that would have sent him straight to hell kind of a thing
40:44
in the in the view that that he grew up with.
40:46
Yeah, I'm assuming, you know, a lot of that kind of stuff that
40:49
was that was a you do not pass go, you go straight to prison,
40:52
that kind of a thing like that. So just I wanted to be clear on
40:56
that. That way we talk about the
40:57
condition. The condition is our faith in
41:00
Christ, Christ rising from the dead, giving us victory.
41:05
So yeah, it's my. Ears.
41:07
It's my ears. Your ears.
41:09
Yeah, we. Had this problem where if our
41:13
hair were so short that you could see the bottom of our
41:16
ears, that's getting out there, you know?
41:21
So now my ears are like exposed. So it's just there's no hope.
41:26
But my hair need to grow. And I always wondered what about
41:32
the bald people? But I don't know though.
41:35
Anyhow, we had to have our hair down to like here cocked
41:40
straight across and then they were supposed to drop down here
41:44
and pee below our ears and then go back and the wild ones would
41:49
go shorter, shorter, harder. And so the shorter it was, you
41:56
could see the rebellion like that was and they were naturally
42:01
rebellious. This kind of goes to show you
42:05
that whatever standard you set. So you guys are laughing because
42:08
like this we go zip our hair. But because of what we were
42:14
taught you, we gave us, we gave us a standard and a place that
42:18
we know how to be out of rebel and be wild.
42:21
So right now I can look through the Amish community.
42:24
I pass them on the buggies and I can tell which ones are wild.
42:28
They got their their sleeves rolled up.
42:31
It's supposed to be by the elbow.
42:34
They got them rolled up a little further.
42:37
Wow. You know, their hair's a little
42:39
shorter and stuff and they curl them up like Nancy Drew, you
42:45
know, but and they're, they're trying to be fancy.
42:50
Well, in the world's perspective, they're like, oh,
42:53
they're Amish. They're so plain.
42:55
But you can see the sin of man and the and the pride of life
43:00
coming out in any religion, regardless of how you try to
43:03
confine it. Like I can pick out all the the
43:06
wild women too. They got their hair coming
43:09
outside of their cap, like their head covering thing.
43:12
The hair kind of hangs down over their eyes a little bit, you
43:15
know, and then maybe have like 1 strand hanging, you know, and
43:19
then they have their cap coming back a little bit and stuff like
43:22
that. And very much that was a gauge
43:25
of where you're at with God. And that's that's not secure at
43:31
all. Like that's not why we're
43:33
talking about at all. So yeah, it you there's
43:40
salvation in one name and that is Christ.
43:42
And God is just saying if you're looking for justification
43:48
anywhere else appreciating my son, I've given you the sun whom
43:56
the sunsets free is free indeed. But then you go around and
44:00
desire bondage. Like that's the argument.
44:05
I don't understand why that is insecure.
44:08
That makes me more secure. If that wasn't the case, then I
44:11
would be insecure because God is just this God that just kind of
44:15
like, well, yeah, whatever. And I'm like, man, am I even
44:19
secure because he's so loose. Like, yeah, he says one thing,
44:23
but then he's, you know, like, yeah, well, yeah, they, they,
44:26
they said the right thing. But you know, I yeah, they're
44:29
like, that would kind of make me feel insecure.
44:32
I like have a God that says, you know what I sent to my son.
44:35
But when the son says free is free indeed.
44:39
And you're securing me and and in my my sheep hear my voice.
44:46
And where I go, you will go and you will be with me and I will
44:50
not lose any of you. It's about him.
44:54
And again, I, I'm rattling, but it's just, I, I can't stand the
45:00
idea that people think that I somehow think that my salvation
45:05
is somehow insecure or hanging in the balance.
45:10
Absolutely not. That's not what I believe.
45:12
I believe that it's in Christ. And if you go and get cert size
45:17
for some kind of justification, you abstain from meats and
45:20
drinks and you try to do some sanctimonial stuff, you hate the
45:24
cross. You know, the cross says
45:28
everything is purified by giving us thanks.
45:33
And you're saying, no, no, no, it's not.
45:36
You know, you hate the cross. You hate the effects of the
45:39
cross. And that that's clearly
45:41
throughout all Paul's epistles, it's the exhortation of people
45:45
trying to find some kind of sanctification and justification
45:49
outside of the cross. And he says, you know what?
45:51
If that's the case, then you don't believe in the effects of
45:54
the cross. And that's the problem.
45:57
Yeah, like in the Bible, you see a lot circumcision is used like
46:01
that. You know, if, if there's if
46:03
there's one thing, you know, circumcision, you know, that's
46:07
not, that's, that's the the thing that a lot of people were,
46:11
you know, obviously used to hanging on.
46:12
You're Jewish and stuff. So, yeah.
46:17
All right, let's I don't know if we can get through this Hebrews
46:27
6 here. I'm going to I'm going to read
46:30
part of it there. Let me actually turn there in my
46:37
mind so I get got it chopped up in my note.
46:46
Probably. About that I should have had man
46:47
ready. OK, I'm going to just read
46:54
Hebrews 6 verses one through seven probably.
47:00
Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of
47:03
Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the
47:06
foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith for
47:09
God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of
47:12
hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal
47:16
government. And this will we do, if God
47:19
permit, for it is impossible for those who were once enlightened
47:23
and have tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of
47:26
the Holy Ghost, and that tasted the good word of God and the
47:30
powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew
47:34
them again unto repentance, seeing they crucified to
47:37
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
47:41
shape. I'll stop.
47:44
I'll stop right there, first of the time being, but to me, and I
47:48
don't know if we have time to really discuss this in depth,
47:50
but to me, this is one of the most comforting conditional
47:57
piece of the Scripture in the Bible.
48:00
Because what he talks about here, this is somebody who has
48:06
tasted the heavenly gift and they were made partakers of the
48:10
holy gift, the Holy Ghost. They were enlightened and to
48:14
step away from that is a a dangerous position.
48:17
I mean I, I I like this this Hebrew six example where
48:22
security but any other any other thoughts on that?
48:28
I don't really, I feel like I've already said what I would like I
48:33
again notice the security in Christ in that whole passage.
48:38
Like he says further in verse 10 and 11, how to not be lazy about
48:42
it, slothful wait, continue until the end like that's that's
48:48
it. We're going to be tried.
48:50
Why would we be tried like the trying of our faith.
48:55
You know, God just playing games make us stronger.
48:59
I think I think we're being tried because we could be
49:02
tempted to be drawn away. He's saying, Peter, you would
49:08
take more that a precious goal. So God understands that the
49:13
trying of our faith is going to make us so strong for whatever
49:17
purpose that we're going to be purpose for in the world to
49:21
come. I think he's looking for some
49:24
strong believers that have been tried and went through the fire,
49:27
but they will resolve in God. Whatever God said, he's able to
49:30
perform it. Whatever he promised, that's
49:33
what's going to happen. And we, we pondered our stakes
49:36
in that reality that Jesus Christ is our victory, is our
49:40
salvation. And no one is.
49:42
We're not going to get lazy, slothful and go, well, yeah,
49:46
whatever. You know, I'm, I'm going to be
49:49
friends with my old buddies again and I'm going to be made
49:52
one with my Amish friends and I'm going to enjoy that
49:54
fellowship and that drinking and fornicating and alcohol and I
49:59
just got to be hanging out with my old buddies.
50:01
No, no, not, no. I'm not going to be lazy like
50:05
it's. Good, Melvin.
50:07
Yeah, I you did good there. You started in the beginning.
50:11
I think if you like we were saying earlier, you got to go
50:13
back and get the context. He says, therefore, leaving the
50:16
principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to
50:18
perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance of dead
50:23
works and a faith toward God. I think that is that is his
50:26
whole point. That's what he's getting across
50:28
here, including what you read in 4-5 and six for it is impossible
50:34
for those who once enlightened. So it's like he's saying, look,
50:39
and according to Romans 6 says the same thing for that Christ
50:42
died in the sin. He died in the sin once and he
50:44
doesn't need to die again. That's the point he's getting
50:47
across here. If you're going to put your
50:49
faith in Christ and in Christ alone, don't try and do that
50:55
again. Move on and to perfection.
50:58
Not going back and saying, oh, I need to be saved again.
51:01
I need to be born again. So it's like this is very, how
51:06
would you say even like unconditional, almost like it's
51:11
like, and it's, it gives me how, what's the right word?
51:16
It gives me like a security even in knowing that if I am truly
51:23
born again and and I have the Spirit of God in me, I'm not
51:26
going to go back and say I need to get born again.
51:29
I don't have to go back and do that were again what I did in
51:33
the seat of my truck back in the spring of 2013 where I gave my
51:37
life to Christ and I confessed that Christ is my savior and I
51:41
said, look, I can't do this anymore.
51:43
God, you need to I believe in your son Jesus and that he is
51:47
enough. And so I don't need to go back
51:48
there and redo that again. I'm moving on.
51:52
So you can't crucify Christ again.
51:56
It's what he's saying. So that's pretty bad.
51:58
Yep, appreciate that. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify
52:03
what the proper standard is. It's actually short hair and no
52:07
facial hair. OK, we had it wrong.
52:13
What? What is?
52:14
What is the name? Of your denomination, Dan.
52:17
We. We were the we're.
52:19
Old colony Mennonites No no beards, no mustache for sure.
52:24
No no goatee like clean shaven and keep your hair very short.
52:29
We're almost right then, because we were not allowed mustaches.
52:35
Anyway, this passage, Hebrews chapter 6, it wouldn't fit very
52:40
well for me into that perseverance of the Saints type
52:43
of view. The whole God elected, God
52:46
didn't elect because they always have this problem of those who
52:50
were once enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, are takers of
52:54
the Holy Ghost. Like those are clear indications
52:58
of someone actually being saved. The warning in this passage is
53:02
for actual Christians. Don't depart, don't walk away
53:07
from Christ. Whereas they always have to make
53:09
this to be like, oh, this is someone who was kind of in the
53:12
church and someone who saw the good work of God and they they
53:17
kind of tasted it, but they didn't actually eat it.
53:19
Or like they always have to qualify these things.
53:21
But all of these statements, these words are very clearly
53:24
somebody who has the Holy Ghost, someone who is an actual
53:28
believer. And the warning is to them.
53:31
That's what the warnings of the book of Hebrews is for.
53:34
You might say it's Jewish Christians to some people.
53:36
That's fine. We can go to all the epistles of
53:38
Paul and find very similar warnings to not depart from the
53:42
faith. Hold fast the beginning of your
53:44
confidence, steadfast to the end.
53:47
That's the warning to Christians.
53:49
You have been given the Spirit of God.
53:51
You have tasted of the good Word of God and the powers of the
53:53
world to come. You've been made partaker the
53:56
Holy Ghost. So you better continue to
53:58
believe firm unto the end. Don't turn to some other thing
54:02
for justification. Amen.
54:05
Well, that goes really against that's one thing that I noticed
54:07
when I left her amishes. I went to a Baptist Church.
54:11
I was even even coming to the truth like bang and up in the
54:16
room. I had enough understanding that
54:18
Jesus Christ saved me. He died and it was a one time
54:22
deal and for them to go up there.
54:24
I always can understand why these old believers that have
54:27
been going there. I find out for 15/20/30 forty
54:30
years on the altar call list. They're still coming up there
54:33
and I couldn't understand that like they, they keep somehow
54:39
it's like, did he die again? Like you know, it, it was very
54:44
confusing for me is how can you say that you are a Christian,
54:49
but then you're going up there and asking for forgiveness and
54:53
trying to get right with God over and over and over again.
54:58
That is someone that doesn't understand the concept of a
55:01
one's dying and can't die again. The it's the way I understand it
55:07
is, is that we are believers and believers are sanctified and and
55:12
forgiven. And if I sin, it's because I
55:16
walked after the flesh and didn't follow what I already am.
55:20
So for me to repent would be to go back and establish the fact
55:25
that I am redeemed and I need this walk and like it's not
55:28
trying to get God on the cross again.
55:31
Amen. But.
55:34
Rather reckoned him. Yeah, I I appreciate that, Dan.
55:38
That's why I think this verse is is huge in our helps shape our
55:43
views is because I agree with you that it's 100%.
55:46
This is talking about a believer, not like the other
55:49
verses that we were talking about earlier were those that
55:52
that were never there's a big difference.
55:54
Don't get that confused. So yeah, so I guess there's no
55:59
call to holiness. As long as we claim Jesus
56:02
Christ, we're good, right. I mean, no, Romans 61 says, what
56:06
shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that
56:08
grace may abound? That's not what we're talking
56:10
about either. You know, there's a balance in
56:12
it. But yeah, I you're going to want
56:16
to be on here next Monday night. We're out of time for now, but
56:18
next Monday night we're going to discuss a probably.
56:20
One of those Wednesday morning or a Wednesday.
56:23
Yeah. Wednesday morning we're going to
56:24
discuss one of the more, I don't know, pointed passages that that
56:32
people run to when you talk about conditional security in a
56:36
religious setting. This is one that people run to
56:38
very, very quickly. We'll talk about that next week.
56:42
Wednesday morning, same time, same place.
56:44
So anyway, that's it for tonight, for this morning.
56:47
I'm still sleeping and we look forward to meeting all you in a
56:52
week from now.