Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Glory (1989) - Edward Zwick | Houselights #170

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Glory (1989) - Edward Zwick | Houselights #170 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the NED party. Welcome back to House Lights, where we are
0:23
going to be opening up another house, a whole wing, a whole well.
0:28
However we label these things here on this show with a look at the
0:33
director, Edward Zwick in a very specific way, and we'll be getting to
0:37
that way in just a moment. I'm one of your hosts, John Mills,
0:41
joining me today as we kick off the House of Zwick with a look
0:46
at nineteen eighty nine's Glory starring Matthew Broderick, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman,
0:53
Andre Brower, Carrie Elways, and lots of other people. Joining me is
1:00
Commander Tristan Riddell, Colonel Darren Moser. Gentlemen, are you ready to charge
1:06
into battle and discuss this film? Do I know which one is more higher
1:08
rank? I don't really, And if it's not star trek ranks, it's
1:11
really hard for me to I was gonna say they don't have commanders in the
1:18
fifty fourth. No they didn't, And you know, honestly, I don't
1:23
care, because what does it matter anyway? You all are from different branches.
1:26
There were many different services during the war. So there you go.
1:30
And of course we are like I said, we're looking at this film Glory
1:36
from nineteen eighty nine and is to open up the house of Zwick, Edward's
1:40
Wick, who as we approach his works, we decided we'll take a quick
1:46
sort of moment here to talk about him. And I would say, and
1:49
I'll put this right out on the floor, I would say that Edward's Wick
1:53
is sort of a quiet major part of American cinema over the last forty years.
1:59
His name never comes up the way that Ridley Scott does, or the
2:01
way that James Cameron does, or the way that George Lucas does, or
2:06
any even number of other names that you'll drop in the history of film.
2:09
But I would say that Zwick has been incredibly influential in shaping American cinema in
2:15
specific over the last several decades. Just to name a few of the films
2:21
that he's been involved with, not necessarily all directorial, but that he's been
2:24
involved with, He's been involved with Shakespeare in Love's, he was involved with
2:30
Traffic, which I think was the next year or something like that. As
2:32
a producer. He was involved not just with Glory, but the Last Samurai
2:37
Blood Diamond. He was involved with Legends of the Fall, which was starring
2:44
the still dreamy Brad Pitt before he cut his hair, and all of these
2:49
other films that he has had in his ove, if you will, and
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gentlemen, I just I want to put it out to you first. Darren,
2:57
you know Edwards Wick. Is he a director that you find yourself referring
3:01
to with any sort of frequency? Is he a name that that comes up
3:05
for you or is he sort of like a a forgotten piece of lord.
3:08
I'd say he's up there with mc tiernan as far as I know his work
3:15
once you see it, But I wouldn't like I would never be organizing my
3:20
collection buys Wick, Like my brain doesn't go there. But yeah, we
3:24
have things like The Siege, you know, Courage under Fire. I feel
3:29
like between Tony Scott AND's Wick, like they were just monopolizing Denzel Washington's time
3:34
for like a couple of decades there. Yeah, they really like, Yeah,
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he's he's sort of banker and the secret basement of of Denzel Washington connecting
3:46
all the houses. Yeah. But yeah, so no, definitely not like
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you know, a known name in my house. But but yeah, but
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like many directors, you look at their their lineup, And I mean,
3:58
he's an award winner, you know, he's always he's always trying something something
4:02
different. So it's going to be a lot of fun doing this decade by
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decade slice of his of his filmography. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned decade
4:12
by decade, Darren, because with somebody like Zwick it can be a little
4:15
bit difficult to do sort of like the full breadth of his work sort of
4:20
thing. And it is good to get a glimpse of where, you know,
4:26
check in with an artist through time. How have they developed, how
4:29
have they changed? Have they changed, did they need to change? Is
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there any sort of refinement or is there something just inimitable about their style where
4:36
they are a constant So Tristan, He's also done a lot of work,
4:44
you know, producing TV shows and stuff like that. Thirty something and My
4:48
so called Life are very important in the nineteen nineties. And did you watch
4:55
either one of those shows at any point? Were parents watching them? Or
4:59
No? No, not at all, not at all. My My my
5:01
parents are actually Zwick film fans. Oh really like that? Yeah, they're
5:06
big Wick fans. And it was actually kind of funny because I told I
5:13
told them that I was that we were doing houses Wick. I said.
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I was like, hey, we're going to be talking about his movies and
5:20
going, you know, like picking one movie per decade. And they're like,
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are you going to do The Great Wall, which is one of their
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favorite movies of all time? And I said, no, no, we're
5:31
not going to do the Great Wall. He didn't he didn't direct that one.
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They're like, ah, stupid, you should do the Great Wall.
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Well, you know, actually, you know, that's what's interesting is because
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you know, as a producer he has a lot of influence. As a
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director, we'll see how much influence he has, what type of mark he
5:47
left. But we're going in with Glory, which is undeniably a big,
5:50
dramatic, epic work. And I would say that Zwick as you go through
5:55
his filmography, all the stuff we were calling out a lot of it's it's
5:58
action or drama. Uh. But his first work was About Last Night,
6:02
which is a comedy. And I will always find that very interesting that somebody
6:09
breaks in with a comedy and then it is like an unbroken streak of dramatic
6:14
work after that. There there's not a whole lot of chuckling going on in
6:18
Glory. I would say there are moments where you know you have humanizing lightness
6:25
because you need to to give a break to the audience and that sort of
6:29
thing. But coming into this, Darren, I know that you and I
6:31
both have seen Glory before. I, of course, being the old man,
6:36
I have memories of Glory that are decades old at this point. But
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when was the first time you encountered Glory? This was I want to say,
6:46
either a blockbuster or a film school one, because it's a it's a
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really well done film, especially when you're learning about history. Uh oh okay,
6:58
soapbox for two seconds. I think anyone who wants to go see this
7:02
Civil war movie, you should just watch Glory instead. Problem solved. You're
7:06
going to learn a lot more and just have a better time. But well,
7:12
yeah, I mean Glory is interesting because it's definitely one of those films
7:16
where history becomes what the film's version of history was. Oh yeah, it's
7:25
very so. But that sort of goes all the way back to Shakespeare where
7:29
it's like, you know, what we think happened with Julius Caesar is what
7:30
we think of in the play, and it's like, ah, that wasn't
7:33
really historically accurate everybody. But okay, we'll just go with that one.
7:36
But Tristan, I know this was your first time watching Glory and right am
7:44
I correct? This is your first time. Okay, So first question,
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of course is was this just a sin of omission where you just always meant
7:51
to get around to it? And two going into it, did you know
7:55
the whole thing back and forth because of references or were you going in completely
7:59
cold? I was going in completely cold. I knew nothing about this movie.
8:03
I mean I knew it existed mainly just from the poster. Like I
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remember one time when I was I think probably twelve, a cousin of mine
8:13
got it for Christmas and he said, he's like, yeah, this is
8:18
like one of my favorite films of all time, Like you need to watch
8:20
this. And I was like, I'm totally going to do that. I'm
8:22
totally going to get around to do that. And here I am pushing forty
8:26
and you know, I just now did it. So Hey, I did
8:28
it. I wasn't a liar, but yeah, no, all I knew
8:31
about it was from the poster. I was just like, OHK cool.
8:35
Matthew Brodrick, Denzel, Morgan Freeman, Boom Civil War. Now, did
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you know that it had won as many awards as it had? Like,
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did you know how celebrated it was? Right? No, No, knew
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nothing about it and didn't know it was celebrated. Didn't know it was.
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I looked up the Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes and TMB scores and everything like that,
8:58
and it was through the roof and I was like, Wow, Okay,
9:00
Wow, this movie is respected. Is what is stunning to me about
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it is, in a sense, they chose the wrong year to release it
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because eighty nine was sort of a crowded year for some really notable films.
9:11
Of course, Batman comes out in nineteen eighty nine and sort of like sucks
9:15
all of the oxygen out of the room. Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade
9:18
comes out. You have, you know, a couple of different franchise things.
9:22
And I think, and Darren, you know, correct me if you
9:24
if I'm wrong, or just let me know if you disagree. I think
9:28
The Glory is one of those films that gets sort of forgotten in the conversation
9:33
about nineteen eighty nine at this point where a lot of people remember everything that
9:37
came out in nineteen eighty nine, and then you say and Glory and they
9:39
go, oh, yeah, right, that came out too, Yeah,
9:43
Glory. The vibe I get from Glory is like a VHS copy at your
9:50
local library in the video section. That's where I see Glory. That's where
9:56
I would come across it is like, oh, yeah, this is stor
10:00
film, Like I want to learn about this. It's under sea for Civil
10:03
War, you know. Yeah no, And I mean Glory had a soft
10:07
open in December of eighty nine, but I think it didn't open wide in
10:11
America until like February the next year, so it it took a little while
10:16
to get going. But I could totally see this, you know. Obviously
10:20
they were lining it up for the Christmas release for like, hey, you
10:24
know, families are going to be off and they want to be able to
10:26
watch, you know, a movie together. Maybe you know teen it up.
10:30
It is rated, I'm gonna say PG teen. I thought it was
10:35
R. Probably are. It's got a lot of blood. I'm double checking
10:39
right now. I'd be surprised if it wasn't R then I think about it,
10:41
but yeah, I'm pretty sure it was, but that I'll double check.
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Yeah, swear guys. Guy's head exploded. Yeah. Yeah, there's
10:50
also some language in it that you know, it's it's a little it's sort
10:54
of our territory, true, true, definitely our territory. But yeah,
10:58
as in the letter R yes, oh you are correct or ar that's correct,
11:05
you know, not our now you spelled hour but that's okay, go
11:09
on, dere go on. But yes, no, I think, yeah,
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this is kind of I think it should be on more people's shelves that
11:18
they can you know, it's a really you know, not to get into
11:22
into ratings and stuff, but it's a really well told story and there's a
11:26
lot of emotional moments. Like we kind of were chuckling about James Harner earlier,
11:30
but he knows when to drop that beat and you know cut and we
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all know Denzel won for that single tier. Like I would say, I
11:39
would say that, Denzel, that's the scene that everybody plays when and I
11:43
remember actually at the Awards show, they played that scene totally what they would
11:48
have played. Yeah, that is absolutely what they played. But I go
11:52
back mentally to it and I rewatching it this time. There are so many
11:58
moments where it really is a whole I think form it gives is probably my
12:03
favorite of his scenes where he's yeah, determining his new family. I like
12:09
again like the see what's it? The single tier is the you know,
12:16
single caption you can easily like bread on a poster, tell people about like
12:20
it's a single image, you know exactly what's going on, versus standing around
12:24
the campfire praying about the fight the next day, Like you can't communicate that
12:28
in a single image. So no, yeah, no, absolutely absolutely,
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Now, Tristan, given all of the esteem that this film carries with it
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box office wise, it didn't exactly tear it up. It costs eighteen million
12:43
to make, it made twenty seven million, So it winds up being just
12:46
not being dismissive here, but by saying just but it's just a it's a
12:52
prestige picture after a certain a critical success. However, it is well regarded
12:58
in the circle of friends I had back then going forward, So everybody I've
13:01
ever known that encountered it, you know, carries it forward. Do you
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think that this is a film where it didn't find an audience in the theater
13:11
and then home video is what sustains it. Basically is this is this a
13:16
film that was never going to find that big success in the theater. Uh.
13:22
As someone who knew nothing about this film until a couple of days ago,
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I have no idea how to answer that question. Well, having watched
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the film, do you think that this is the type of film that was
13:35
just destined to have trouble finding an audience back then? Oh? Okay with
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that question, Okay, yeah, with that question, say, it's worded
13:46
better, but that's okay. It was more direct. Well, I know
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I had to. I had to condense it for you. You've made this
13:50
complaint before I get it. I H no, I I this is this
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looks and feels like the type of film that should have been a critical success
14:00
as it was, and if not a boom, but at least a moderate
14:05
success. Like it is surprising that it that it didn't make its money back,
14:09
that it didn't that it didn't double its budget. That that is surprising
14:13
to me because this has, in a non derogatory way, oscar bait written
14:18
all over it. It's just that like this is a prestige pick, like
14:22
this is everybody knows what they're doing, like Zwick, nuw what he was
14:24
doing, Broderick Washington, Freeman, they all knew that they were making something
14:28
powerful. I mean, when you start off with a story, this reel
14:33
and this important to our actual history and put it on film, like,
14:39
you know that you're making something pivotal, pivotal and yeah, So to that
14:45
I find confusing and surprising. So given that all of the things that you're
14:50
talking about, it's written by Kevin, it's either pronounced jar or jr A.
14:54
I think it's Jar j A r r E, who also went on
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to write Tombstone, which is one of my favorite films of all time.
15:03
And obviously the guy is a big history buff and everything. But speaking to
15:07
you, know what you're addressing about it, do you think that the script
15:11
the basis for everything from which this sprang? Was there anything about it that
15:18
you look at it? In certain exchanges you say, yeah, that's why
15:22
this movie. You know why somebody read this script and they were like,
15:26
this is what I'm going to make. Like, is there anything intrinsically about
15:30
the structure of this film that you think that script is you know you can
15:35
trace it back to that seed. Is there anything that jumps out at you?
15:37
I don't think it's specifically the script that really jumps out at me where
15:41
I'm just like, yeah, this is the one. Like there's sometimes like
15:43
when you see a scene and you're like, oh, that was totally that
15:46
person's audition piece, you know, like that kind of thing can jump out
15:50
at You're just like, oh, yeah, this one is the one that
15:52
he read in front of the casting director. Okay, I don't think there's
15:58
too many scenes like that, baby, some of the scenes with Andre Brower,
16:04
which, by the way, I'm gonna tip my to my hand on
16:08
this a little bit where since we're talking about the script, I think this
16:14
was the wrong perspective to tell this movie. I don't think this should have
16:18
been told through the eyes of Broderick. It should not have been told through
16:22
him. It should have been told through Andre Brower's character. I think he
16:27
should have been the protagonist. When I, as I was watching it the
16:30
entire time, I was like, why are we focusing on Broderick? Why
16:33
are we doing this? It totally should have been Brower that the camera stayed
16:37
with and we saw everything from his perspective. Interesting, interesting perspective, Darren,
16:45
I'll toss that over to you when you but when you look at this,
16:48
do you think that they felt obliged because the one actual, real historical
16:55
figure that appears in the film is Broderick's character. Yeah, do you think
16:59
they felt a obliged in order to give it that air of authentic history to
17:03
tell it through Broderick's character, or did they need to divorce themselves from that
17:07
and do what Tristan is talking about. No, I definitely see Tristan's point
17:12
of view, and I love Bauer's performance in this. I haven't seen him
17:17
in many things besides, like I know him from Brooklyn nine nine, so
17:21
it was like, oh, you know, it's young Captain Holt. My
17:23
wife didn't even recognize him. He looks very, very young. And like
17:27
I made that comment, the comment that I just made to you guys,
17:30
Like when the credits rolled, I said to her, I was like,
17:33
this totally should have been through Andre Brower's perspective, and she's like, wait,
17:37
he was in this right, But well, yeah, it's one of
17:41
those you're getting early enough in these people's careers where like they almost start to
17:45
not look like themselves because we're so used to what they look like now.
17:51
Yeah, No, I could see that perspective. But I also I totally
17:56
agree with John where they probably just went with I think they had letters.
18:00
I'm assuming, you know, because he's writing letters, like that's the framing
18:04
device, you know, because of for the historical account. Honestly, I
18:10
feel if this was like an five movie totally would have been a different perspective.
18:17
I've not to remember too much, but eighty nine was not like you
18:22
did not have massive black led casts that were like running the headliners back then.
18:30
That that came a little later. I mean, not that you didn't
18:33
have movies like that, but not a movie like this. Uh. And
18:38
it it was an interesting because obviously Shaw is a protagonist, but it's like
18:48
it's like the main we have one main protagonist and like a dozen little sub
18:52
protagonists. It's a really interesting formula because we spent like, it's really interesting
18:59
watching den Zell in this because it feels like a minor, minor role,
19:04
Like I know, he's like second billing in this, but as far as
19:10
like what is like, I feel like Thomas has way more to do.
19:14
I feel like Morgan Freeman has way more to do. U. It's just
19:18
it's really interesting. This kind of like everybody else had to share the secondary
19:25
character title and like split it amongst themselves, like that's just it's a vibe.
19:30
It's a really interesting vibe in this movie. I think that. I
19:33
mean, my read of the film is that if there's if there's a flaw,
19:38
is that it stems from the strength you're talking about, Darren Is it's
19:45
it's I guess, paradoxical or whatever. Like my view is kind of weird.
19:48
Where they establish in the opening credits these are this is based on the
19:53
letters from this real historical figure, and they take time at certain points to
19:59
have him narrow rate those letters that he's sending back. But then it steps
20:03
away from that and gives more emphasis to Morgan Freeman and Andre Brower and Denzel
20:11
Washington. And I think that's where it's sort of like it's fighting for its
20:15
own focus in a sense, because there's almost a sense from my perspective that
20:23
maybe somewhere along the way in the editing booth, or maybe while they're filming
20:26
it, they suddenly realized Broderick isn't carrying this the way that they had intended
20:32
when they wrote it, and instead they wind up getting these other fantastic performances,
20:37
and they basically make the call, let's lean into that. Because I
20:41
would also argue that the fact that this is in historical epic and it's only
20:45
two hours in change a movie like this where you're like, oh, well
20:49
today it'd be you know, a different vote. Yeah, today would also
20:52
be three and a half hours long. And the mini series. Yeah,
20:57
but apparently the author really hightly focused film. Oh I'm sure they did.
21:03
Like there was a lot more of carry elwiss uh on the cutting room floor
21:07
and Jane Alexander and yeah, I think this is a very very tight presentations,
21:14
like the only female in this entire movie, like, yeah, there
21:17
are no women in this movie basically, well, I mean back then,
21:22
only men served in the military. So it's like, well, true,
21:25
we got a couple of passing glances and that was it. Like I'm like,
21:27
is that these supposed love interests that he would return to if he lived
21:33
question mark? I don't know. I think I think that you know,
21:37
given that though, Tristan, do you think that this is a film that
21:41
should have had more run time to it anyway? Because it's not. It's
21:45
not like a run time if anything, it's the reverse. True. I
21:52
actually I'm going to go against the grain here and go against pattern and say
21:56
that, like, I think this would have been infitted from more runtime I
22:00
do. I think there's this was this was an interesting format to me,
22:04
Like, this was an interesting structure because there were certain times when I'm like,
22:07
oh, we're still here, Oh we're still doing this. Okay,
22:11
we still haven't gotten shoes yet, all right. I was like, man,
22:15
like, we're spending a lot of time here at the camp. And
22:18
then like as we were giving forward and they were on the beach going towards
22:22
the final battle, I like, I didn't check to see how much time
22:26
was left at first, but I was kind of asking myself. I was
22:30
like, I looked at my wife and I was like, is this is
22:32
this going to end? In like which Cassidy, It's very like once there
22:37
on the beach, it's almost over. Yeah, That's that's what I was
22:41
feeling. That's what I was thinking. Like, I was just like,
22:42
man, is this going to end? Like you know, like Sun Dance
22:45
where they all just kind of like storm the storm the castle and then freeze
22:48
frame credits they all died. But then I saw that we had twenty minutes
22:55
left. I was like, Okay, well we're going to actually see them
22:56
die. So yeah, the format to me was odd. I feel like
23:00
this this movie needed more breathing room, Like if you're if you're going to
23:06
focus so much on the beginnings of things and on the training of it,
23:11
I feel like you needed to spend more time of them, you know,
23:14
out in the field. And I know that that was that was a plot
23:17
point. I understand that. I understand it was a plot point that they
23:19
weren't seeing action and that they needed to They needed to get through it.
23:25
They needed they needed their shot, you know, they needed to prove themselves.
23:29
But I feel like there needed to be more post training camp. I
23:33
understand that that point, Darren, Do you agree with what you're sin is
23:37
saying there. It's not that I don't agree. I think to a point,
23:41
it doesn't matter, like I'm not going to ding it for the scale
23:47
should have been a little more training camp or a little more battle at the
23:49
end, because at the end of the day, they made me care about
23:52
these characters. So whatever formula they came up with and however they told that
23:56
story. By the end, like I knew every single one of those main
24:00
leads and I cared if they made it through that final battle, and at
24:07
the end, of the day. That's what you want out of a war
24:08
movie, is you want that investment. And I think, you know,
24:15
just I think you're right, John, like what you said earlier, where
24:19
I mean, I think the thing Matthew Broderick does best in this is his
24:26
youth, is it. You totally get this vibe of like, yeah,
24:29
this is like some twenty something not a career military man that's pressed into service,
24:36
Like he does that well. But on the flip side of that,
24:40
he's not the giant leading man, so you have to to pat it out
24:44
with the other the other stories. But yeah, I love that the arc
24:48
we got with him though, I liked. I liked his his shell shock
24:51
at the beginning, you know, and that led into like that scene where
24:56
the guy's a pretty good shot with a rifle. He's like, yeah,
25:00
I do it and reload while I'm blasting this gun by your ear, like
25:03
this is what it's going to be like. So yeah, but really,
25:07
at the end of the day, it made me care about these characters and
25:12
and their story and that's really that's all you need to do. Well,
25:17
Where I where I would give it credit is that with the structure, with
25:21
the way they you know, that that Zwick approaches it is it's really easy,
25:26
and I think we've seen this plenty of times with a film like this,
25:30
to get overly sentimental to the point of Maudelin and dwell on it,
25:34
whereas this very much feels more authentic to me because it has that air of
25:41
the very stiff social interaction rules of back then. Right there, there's not
25:47
there's not anything grafted onto it from the twentieth century of trying to bring on
25:53
you know, oh well, this is how people act and so we're going
25:56
to make them more relatable. There's a there's a stiffness in a sort of
26:00
like a distance that we expect from stories of this time, where you know,
26:04
people aren't the same sort of there's not the same level of openness,
26:08
and so I think whether they stumble into that accidentally or not, that's that's
26:14
my matter of you know, gray area. But I wind up enjoying the
26:18
film specifically because it doesn't dwell and because it it has restraint. Basically,
26:26
it doesn't feel manipulative the way that say Oliver Stone and Platoon is right there,
26:32
there's there's a little bit of you know, uh, you know,
26:37
a little bit of distance from from the directing, which I think works to
26:41
its benefit. But is it also possible because we've already referenced the music,
26:45
Tristan, do you think that do you think that the score does a lot
26:48
of the emotional heavy lifting in this film? Is this something where it's like
26:52
a John Williams situation where it's like, if this score wasn't this score,
26:59
it doesn't play the same way. Well, every time I watch Apollo thirteen,
27:03
a tear, you know, rolls down my cheek, and every time
27:06
I, you know, I watch, I get chosed up. Yeah,
27:10
so oh wait, oh wait, this this film, this film glory.
27:15
Uh yeah, I mean I think there's with a with a with a Horner
27:21
score, it's very in your face and it's it's very it's very out there,
27:26
Like I'm I actually, I just got done watching Dune Part two and
27:33
Zimmer's score in that one, Like there's a lot of moments that would probably
27:37
land flat if it wasn't for Zimmer poking you in the years every once in
27:44
a while. And I feel like Horner kind of does that too with this
27:47
one, where you're like he tells you how to feel and and I'm not
27:52
saying that as a bad thing or even a good thing. It's just how
27:55
it is. It's it's horner is very much is not is not a subtle
28:00
composer. True, that is a that is a very good way to say
28:03
it. I mean, like you were saying about a Poll thirteen, Like
28:07
I can think of specific tracks from Poll thirteen that you could literally cut into
28:11
this movie and it would almost be better. Like there's some great horns,
28:15
there's some great like I mean, just a tit better like not not like
28:19
it has to outdo it, but yeah, and that's just that's hornor's not
28:25
a it's not a surprise, but yeah, I mean, but again,
28:30
at the end of the day, it hit me when it needed to hit
28:33
me in those moments because the score was like act sending that moment or making
28:40
me think about you know, these people as men, as as heroes,
28:44
as going down into battle, and that's just the point of the movie.
28:49
In terms of battle. You know, it's difficult to shoot and edit a
28:56
battle sequence, especially when you're dealing with something that's close quarter or something that
29:00
is reenacting you know, historical fighting styles and stuff like that, and make
29:06
it understandable visually and even you know, audily for an audience Tristan in terms
29:12
of the battle and how's Wick treats the battle the way he films and has
29:17
his editor put it together. Is it successful in terms of, you know,
29:22
conveying the tension and the fear and the stress, but at the same
29:27
time retaining enough clarity that you know everything that's going on, who's getting hit,
29:33
where people are in position to each other. Does it retain its sense
29:36
of place and distance and character throughout the battle scenes. In terms of the
29:41
editing with the battle scenes, I felt like it did its job. I
29:47
felt like it was it was something that like it wasn't It wasn't overly fancy,
29:53
Like it didn't try to manipulate you with a lot of fast cuts or
29:59
a lot of you know, craziness around, Like it kind of lets you
30:03
soak it in, which is something that I really appreciate that is kind of
30:07
which is kind of lost in modern films and also in the early Oughts to
30:11
like, you know, there was a lot of fast cutting that was just
30:14
like it was manipulated kinetic editing that tried to confuse you and make you feel
30:21
like something was amped up when it wasn't. And this one let you see
30:25
what was going on geographically. I think it did a really good job.
30:29
That was something that we've all been talking about the past couple of weeks about
30:33
how there are certain times when, like Tony Scott didn't really let you know
30:37
where you were and you just kind of had to take it on faith.
30:40
I feel like Zwick lets you know where you are, and there was a
30:44
few times, a few times when it almost felt a little limiting with how
30:48
much he let you know where you were where, Like the sacking of that
30:56
small town. You're like, oh, we're getting one angle of this town
31:00
because they built three structures and that's all you're going to be able to see.
31:07
You know. It's one of those things. And I felt like that
31:08
kind of happened in a few places where you're like, Okay, we have
31:11
enough money to build this facade, this facade, and this facade, keep
31:15
the camera here. M h A ford at the end, like it never
31:21
felt like a fort. It felt like a berm and there on the other
31:23
side of it, like and like you said, the town, Like,
31:26
I'm like town, you mean, you know, the governor's mansion and maybe
31:30
his stable next door, because that's always saw but you know, I got
31:33
the point across, But yeah, it was right and that and that's the
31:37
thing. It's just like it's azzy trees anywhere. It can be trees,
31:41
but it would have an actual location. Then you have to start to think
31:45
about it. Economics is a real thing, you know. It's it's not
31:48
like they were doing it on the cheap. They're just doing with you know,
31:52
what they could with what they had. I mean, they could just
31:56
see GI the town, make it bigger sense, and yeah, why not?
31:59
Just have they not heard of set extensions? I can do that in
32:02
my right now here as the Abyss, the technology was not there, not
32:07
there at all yet, not really not really maybe a matte painting or two
32:12
they could have thrown those in. But in terms of those battles, they
32:15
also had a large deal of Civil War reenactors who actually worked for free,
32:22
just for the just for the pleasure of being in the film. And Darren,
32:28
was there any sense when you were watching this that you were watching a
32:30
bunch of non SAG card carrying Civil War reenactors who did this stuff for fun?
32:38
Or did this still play as a professional production full of extras for you?
32:45
I mean, until you mentioned it, I didn't even give two thoughts
32:47
about like where all the people came from or where they got all the people
32:52
to play the army. It was I was so focused on our group,
32:55
and then it's like, as long as again, you know we were joking
33:00
about he identified where we were. There's a it's a very clear movie.
33:07
You know who your guys are. They're the guys in blue. Even when
33:10
there's the other colored regimen, they all have red pants, and you could
33:14
totally identify the other group. You can identify the South. You can like,
33:21
it's very very clear. It's never like now, wait a minute,
33:23
who's shooting at who? And who's going to the left. Lots of smoke,
33:28
lots of like through the trees and the you know, gorilla forest warfare.
33:34
But yeah, I can just imagine you're a Civil War reenactor and you're
33:38
like, well, your time is nigh because we're making Glory and we need
33:44
you and all your sets to come on out. All I was actually thinking
33:46
about when I started the movie. I was just like, man, you
33:52
know that every single Civil War reenactor who is in driving distance to this thing,
34:00
well imagine also, you want to talk about budget, all these guys
34:04
already going horse. I brought thirty horses. I just thought it was the
34:07
shooting day. We got horses if you need them, just no. But
34:10
but but seriously, all those guys had their own costumes already and they were
34:16
all fitted, and they all worked, and they were all period accurate,
34:20
like talk about the five oh first or something. Basically the parade. I
34:24
think of that scene like that that that's kind of a harder scene because everybody
34:30
in that town square and lining, they all have to be in costume.
34:35
Just bring them, bring them all out. Yeah, I you know the
34:39
thing that I like that they you know, at the end, they have
34:44
sort of that press gallery that's watching the action go on, and I think
34:49
I think it's I think it's actually a wonderfully played scene when when Broderick Hans
34:52
the letters over and he's like if I fall, you know, and like
34:58
tell them what you saw here, Like it will always bend my mind that
35:02
there was at any point any war where there could be a press gallery and
35:07
they they weren't like freaking out. It wasn't like they were like embedded with
35:10
troops, were totally safe. Just yeah, five minutes jaunt up the beach
35:15
and they can't get to us. It absolutely blows my mind. I remember
35:20
learning about that in school, where like it was like fifth grade or something
35:23
like that, where my teacher said like, yeah, some people would have
35:28
picnics on a hill overlooking the battle, and I'm like, friggin what,
35:34
because who's gonna whitt a cannon shot that way? Well, and all the
35:37
bad guys are that way. Well. There's also the fact that, you
35:39
know, this is why television is such a good thing, because it gave
35:44
somebody something to watch that wasn't you know, it was pretend horrific instead of
35:47
real horrific, And who wants to see that? Oh my god. Well,
35:53
keep in mind, we're not too far away from you know, people
35:57
attending public hangings and stuff like that, and you know, not that far
36:01
off the news people like they have papers to fill. If the war is
36:06
big news like that, I get down. I get about like Joe Sunday
36:09
and his family picking in on Gettsburg Hill, Like yeah, that's Oh,
36:15
we're gonna go to church in the morning and then we're gonna pack a picnic
36:17
lunch and we're gonna go sit on a hill and watch people shoot each other.
36:21
That's the mind, that's the real mind bender. But you know what,
36:24
if anything defines America at war, that that does just you know,
36:30
I was gonna make it, you know what, We're gonna just picnic with
36:35
the Joneses while we wait for this conflict to like that tracks. I was
36:39
gonna say, this is the same species that has the Colosseum, that had
36:44
the you know, the witch trials, the you know and everything like that.
36:46
So yeah, yeah, gladiator games, you know they you know,
36:52
you read in British history about people showing up to watch people get drawn and
36:57
quartered like what I you know, I it's it's it's it's mind numbing.
37:05
But at the same time, we're we're still not that far removed from it,
37:08
so it's like it's it's really it's really a bizarre sort of sort of
37:13
perspective. But a but speaking of ridiculous humans, one thing that I do
37:20
kind of want to talk about is the crux of this film, the crux
37:22
of the story, and something that I know, like is obvious but still
37:28
like such a freakin head scratcher from a modern audience. I guess maybe I
37:31
shouldn't expound too much as a modern audience, but is that, you know,
37:37
like the North and South are fighting because of slavery, because of you
37:42
know, like the South wants to break free in order to keep enslaving other
37:45
humans, and the idea of of of black people free black people, you
37:53
know, fighting for that cause is a novelty, and they still get disrespect
37:59
from from other soldiers. Yeah, it's it's it's it's insane. It's crazy,
38:04
but it's not, you know, because it's it's so common, it's
38:06
so expected. But at the same time, you're like, like, these
38:08
these people are fighting for their for their own freedom. You are fighting for
38:13
their freedom, but you still don't give them the respect of you don't give
38:16
them the same respect as white citizens, and as they illustrated with their reduced
38:23
pay. And I'm laughing because of the absurdity now because it's funny. It's
38:28
just just it's it's just absurd to me. Yeah, it's it is,
38:34
you know, that's there's there's no two ways about that. And it's I
38:37
think it's a you know, a good good thing on the part of the
38:42
film to call attention to something specific like that, because you don't even think
38:45
that that that gets to how even at the bureaucratic level, how it how
38:52
it goes. But in terms of the historicity, the real regiment, apparently
38:58
they did not accept freed slaves. It was because they wanted it to be
39:04
an elite unit, and so some of the story arcs here are sort of
39:08
invented whole cloth. The regiment would have been much more like the Andre Brower
39:15
character as a whole than this mash of people. Now obviously shoot squirrels good
39:21
and you know I can't, yeah, I can't read like obviously though you
39:25
know you're telling this epic story that's you know, everybody understands or used to
39:30
understand that film wasn't necessarily real history. But Darren, in terms of the
39:37
historicity, do you think that there is? Do you think The Glory is
39:43
one of those movies that escapes it because it's good, or do you think
39:46
it's something where it does too good a job of establishing the reality of things
39:52
with the book ended blocks of text on the screen. Do you think it
39:59
sells too well the idea that this is actual, actual history, Like it
40:04
leans into it even more than maybe even Oliver Stone does with JFK. I
40:07
get what you're saying. I think you already kind of answered it where back
40:14
then like in the late eighties and previous, and not that it's that different
40:17
now, but like it was just not as we weren't as focused on Oh,
40:22
this is actual historical events, this is actual Like yeah, obviously there
40:28
was a fifty four, there was you know, General Shaw, there was
40:32
the Battle for the Fort, but you know many of these individual characters like
40:38
there, How many times have movies combined two or three historical people into one
40:45
character to simplify the cast, like that was very common to do. And
40:50
so yeah, I don't feel like it's too off the mark good. I
40:57
mean, I can honestly say that I agree with that. I think that
41:02
it's just an odd thing that it clouds things. But Tristan, same question
41:10
to you, do you think that the film was obliged in any way to
41:14
say inspired like have that disclaimer that we had last week with Unsolvable inspired by
41:20
true events. I can't think in that same thing like its Glory inspired by
41:24
true Like why would you put that at the front, Like it's so obvious
41:28
it's a historical movie. But yeah, yeah, I think because it is
41:32
in a historical period, like because it is a civil war film, and
41:39
it because this is something that actually happened because the fifty four. The fifty
41:44
fourth existed, because the kernel existed, because people like this existed. Like
41:51
I think it's it's enough of a reality, Like these are the things that
41:54
they went through, Like there was the pay there was the pay issue,
42:00
there was the boot issues, there was the uniform issues. There was like
42:04
it was the final battle happened when it happened, Like even the colonel releasing
42:09
his horse at the end, like that actually happened. I feel like there's
42:13
enough real things that happen where you don't have to say based upon inspired by
42:17
There's enough there, Okay, But regardless, we all need to take every
42:22
single movie, even if it says based on true events or inspired by true
42:25
events, where all of this really happened exactly the way that we show it.
42:29
Even if they say all of that things we need we always need to
42:31
question, well, it's a movie. So like whenever I watch a real
42:37
life story, I always ask myself, like at the end when the credits
42:40
roll, I wonder how much of that is real? And not in a
42:44
sarcastic way, not even in a sardonic way, It just I always I
42:49
have trained myself for decades to go I wonder how much of that is real,
42:52
and then I look it up that it reminds me of a story my
42:57
wife and I years ago. There was an HBO movie called I Think it
43:00
was like Warm Springs where Kenneth Brannaugh played FDR and the way they portrayed his
43:06
marriage to Eleanor Roosevelt was like, it was this hunky dory, you know,
43:08
wonderful thing, Ladi da da da, And like I remember at the
43:12
end of the movie, my wife laughing, because are you effing kidding me?
43:15
She was like what. I was like, it's not like it went
43:17
off and lived happily ever after. And I started going through all of these
43:21
things and she said that, She's like, yeah, I know, it's
43:23
just a movie. I was like, I know, but right, You're
43:25
absolutely right. I should just walk away at this point. You're supposed to
43:29
feel happy when you walk out, and that's great. Yeah, we still
43:34
make reference to it, but Darren Obviously, Denzel Washington gets a lot of
43:38
credit for his performance in this is there another performance in this film where you
43:45
think it's a standout that is a beacon of just magnificent acting that Denzel Washington
43:53
just happens to Eclipse that if he hadn't had this performance, that this person
44:00
would have been recognized for what they did. Ah, it's really hard because
44:05
it comes down to screen time really, Like there's many great little moments,
44:12
but they're spread throughout all the other characters. So it's it's like you got
44:15
your your big number one with Matthew Broder, he got your number two with
44:20
Denzel even you know, Carrie is kind of spread amongst all the other characters.
44:25
Like he, like we said, a lot of him ended up on
44:29
the cutting room floor. But maybe Andre I think it, like we said
44:35
at the very beginning of this podcast, I think Andre has the most through
44:38
story. We see him before the regiment's formed and after, and I think
44:46
he lives, right they they they infer that he we don't see him die.
44:51
Well, we see him get bayoneted in the back. Yeah, I'm,
44:55
and he gets carried away, but I'm we don't see him buried.
44:59
But it's it's you know, I'm pretty sure you didn't really come back from
45:02
that. He's Yeah, I mean what they say, like half of their
45:06
regimen like died, like geez, but yeah, so I would say that
45:12
that's or even just Morgan Freeman, like we laugh of like, oh,
45:15
Morgan Freeman's and everything. You know, Morgan Freeman, you know, just
45:19
carries everything with his voice. But I cared about his character. I loved
45:23
how he got promoted and he was recognized by the men and he was kind
45:28
of that older, kind of father figure to them and it worked really well.
45:35
I think that I like that you point to Freeman because I think that
45:37
Freeman's interaction with Denzel Washington actually elevates Denzel's performance. It's two actors making each
45:45
other even better. With Andre Brower, I you know, and Tristan,
45:51
I'll kick it over to you. I mean, like I agree with Darren
45:52
that Brower's performance is great. And what I always go back to with him
45:57
is when he breaks during training and starts sobbing. It's such a real moment
46:02
that like even just talking about it, like I get, I get sort
46:06
of like that goosebump sort of thing where it's like I wanted to step through
46:08
the screen and comfort him. Because this was obviously a guy. I think
46:14
his his identity as a person changes the most outside of Denzel Washington's character,
46:21
Like they have a parallel track. And you know, do you agree that
46:25
brow like Brower sort of gets overshadowed by exactly Do you think the Brower just
46:30
gets overshadowed by Denzel in this film or do you think is there somebody else
46:36
that that jumps out at you? Uh? Yeah, I think I was
46:42
surprised to see Brower's name so far down the list. Now I understand that,
46:45
you know, like he wasn't a name at that point, but with
46:49
as much emphasis as they gave him in the movie, I expected his name
46:53
to be much higher up. But I feel like, you know, Morgan
46:58
Freeman and N't Washington are just absolute powerhouses. I mean, there's a reason
47:02
why we are still talking about their movies. There's a reason why this is
47:07
what our sixth Denzel movie in a row that we're that we're talking about.
47:10
We didn't even we didn't even plan this, folks, We did not plan
47:14
this, and it just kind of happened. And you know, next week
47:17
we're doing another Denzel film again. Plans it's coming. Yes, it's not
47:24
gonna be until the last Samurai that we're Denzel free. But wait, if
47:29
you look in the back right there on the boat kidding, he's not.
47:32
And we we even came up with an alternate reality where Denzel played kin wantson
47:37
Hobby's character in Last Samurai and what that was came up that we did.
47:43
Oh we didn't all do that. I did that. Okay, I did
47:45
that. No, you were writing prompts for for you know, Dolly or
47:50
Mid Journey, Mid Journey. Oh yeah, I'm gonna Now, I'm gonna
47:53
make that happen. You got to make that happen. I think you're obliged
47:55
now. Honestly, it's what the public wants, and so we will ask
48:00
you with that as we love to say round third and come to the point
48:07
where I'm going to ask for final judgment of Glory from nineteen eighty nine,
48:13
and because he hates going first, I'm going to toss it to Darren because
48:17
I like to see him suffer. So Darren on a five star scale,
48:21
the most perfect scale ever created for film, where do you land with Glory?
48:28
And of course, you know, any final thoughts you want to share?
48:30
Yeah, no, I feel like we covered a lot of it,
48:32
and you know, we it's definitely not a perfect film without flaws, but
48:38
for what it is, for the story you tell, I think I kind
48:42
of set my piece in the beginning of I can overlook a lot of little
48:45
things flow or pacing or music really hits you or anything like that. But
48:53
at the end of the day, I care about these characters. I really
48:57
care about these characters, like character they live if they die. I you
49:00
know, when when Shaw goes into the General's office, He's like, give
49:04
us you know, you know, put us on the lines, and I'm
49:07
like, well, well, hey, buddy, you don't want him to
49:08
hate you and like send you on a suicide mission, like you gotta watch
49:12
out, like we gotta gotta take care of your people. Yeah, so
49:16
I gotta give it a four. Four drum beats of the uh dismissed drummers
49:22
at the end. A solid movie, and I could totally see it's interesting.
49:29
Like I don't know why I kept thinking of like Schindler's List, just
49:31
another you know, historical war epic. But this movie, I feel like
49:36
I would pop in. It's light enough in the camaraderie and the type of
49:40
story. Like, yeah, it has its blood and guts and it has
49:43
its drama, but I don't know something about the eighty nine's it's just not
49:49
as intense. So yeah, four stars from me. I'll go next,
49:54
because Tristan, this was this was your first time seeing it, so you'll
49:59
get to round it out. Darren, I'm going to wind up with you.
50:04
I think that this is what I would call a solid for. My
50:07
memory of it was that I loved it more. But I think that maybe
50:13
I've changed, maybe the way I look at things has changed a little bit.
50:15
But this is a solid for because I think that where we have a
50:22
quote unquote misstep is I think that it does need a little more run time,
50:25
specifically because the one character that everything is supposed to revolve around is the
50:31
one I never really connect with. And I know that this could be a
50:37
caustic way to say it. I don't want to say it this way,
50:40
but I think that Broderick is so clearly outmatched, out shown what however you
50:47
want to say it, by the other performances in the film that he just
50:53
he's there, and I want to pay attention to the other people. And
51:00
I think that is something where Zwick just doesn't get the performance out of Broaderick
51:05
that he needs. I'm not blaming Broderick for it. That's Zwick's responsibility,
51:09
and I think Broderick is bringing everything he can and I think he has moments,
51:15
but he never quite rises to that same level that I get from the
51:19
other actors. I never want to step through and hug him the way I
51:22
do Brower. I never want to respectfully listen to his anger the way I
51:28
do with Denzel Washington. I never want to try to connect with him,
51:32
even the way that the one guy who learns to read through it like a
51:39
great that's a great performance, a great supporting role that I think gets overlooked
51:44
in this film sometimes. So yes, solid four for me. And so
51:49
now Tristan, we come to you. Where do you end on your first
51:52
viewing of Glory? I'm kind of teetering between a three and a three and
51:57
a half. I agree with everything that you guys are saying, like John,
52:01
especially with Matthew Broderick being such a weak link in this film. I'm
52:07
not saying he did a bad job. He didn't do a bad job at
52:08
all. But when when you're compared to the other people, man, oh,
52:15
it is rough because they are absolutely bringing it, and at times Broderick
52:20
looks lost, and I know that that's his character, but I'm not saying
52:23
it in the realm of his character, like there's a scene like the scene
52:27
when he goes and he's screwing up the the what the quartermasters area, Like
52:35
there needed to be more power behind that. There needed to be more intimidation.
52:38
And I'm just like, look, it's Matthew Broderick reading lines and you
52:43
know, like saying that he needs to hit something off of a shelf.
52:45
And at the end, I know, I know, this is real life,
52:51
and real life is not always satisfying, but there needed to be something
52:54
more at the end. There needed to be some sort of signal of hope
53:00
at the end because at the end they all die, they're all buried in
53:04
a mass grave. And then at the end the title card says and the
53:10
form was never taken, the fort was never taken. I'm like cool,
53:15
like I'm so glad I watched that, and it's just and it has like
53:22
a little footnote talking about how like oh Lincoln said like it, you know,
53:24
he he like he he said that the tide was turned by all of
53:30
the people of color who enlisted. It was like one hundred and eighty thousand.
53:35
He said, that's what turned the tide of the war. Right.
53:37
I wish we saw just like a scene lit just a little scenelet at the
53:42
end. Well, even if you're going to invent Andre Brower's character, which
53:45
they did have him, you know, to your point dark we do see
53:50
him lift it out, So have him improbably like in a wheelchair or something,
53:53
listening to Lincoln in the background, or he becomes the throughput. He's
53:58
telling the story to the next generation. And you know, and and he
54:00
sees like a bunch of colored regimen's marching pass like here they go. However
54:06
you want to do it almost like they could have used him as a framing
54:08
device or maybe even a protagonist. You know, maybe they sent him home
54:12
when he got shot. Maybe, yeah, maybe that could have been Yeah
54:17
again, yeah, I think if Broderick was stronger, it wouldn't stand out
54:22
to you about the framing device, I think. But I'm gonna I'm gonna
54:25
I'm gonna give it a three and a half because I feel like a three
54:29
is too harsh, So I'm gonna I'm gonna say three. Now I want
54:30
to give it a three, but I'm gonna give it a three. Now,
54:32
Well, there you go. That's a four, A four and a
54:36
three and a half. That's pretty close. We don't always align and and
54:39
but but we're pretty close on that one. It's not another unstoppable where I
54:45
was, you know, flailing out there on the fringes. But uh,
54:49
this tease us up to jump into the nineties and look at another film from
54:53
Edwards Wick, also starring Denzel Washington, and about a potentially controvert topic,
55:00
especially in today's environment. Darren, what is it we're going to be looking
55:04
at next week in the House of Swick. Yeah, next we're going to
55:07
be jumping I think a good eight nine years to nineteen ninety eight, the
55:13
siege here on house Lights, Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party for