Latest / Random Heathen Ramblings / Random Heathen Ramblings: S5, EP46 - Keeping Oaths And The Consequences Of Breaking Them. [Patron Request]

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Random Heathen Ramblings: S5, EP46 - Keeping Oaths And The Consequences Of Breaking Them. [Patron Request] · Random Heathen Ramblings

0:04
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Random Heathen Ramblings
0:07
podcast where we discuss all sorts of things Germanic
0:10
Heathenry related. My name is Jesse, I am your
0:13
host. Let's get into it.
0:40
All righty folks, how's everybody doing this week?
0:46
I hope you're all doing well and ready to rock'n'roll for this
0:52
week's second to last episode of season 5.
0:57
If you guys are catching this this week, I want you to all be
1:02
aware that the last live stream of 2024 on the Midgard musings
1:09
YouTube channel and Facebook page is going to be happening on
1:12
Monday night, January, sorry, December 23rd.
1:19
I'm jumping already ahead into into season into season 6 like a
1:25
like a like a Cucamonga. So anyway, like I said, I will
1:32
be doing a live stream, the last live stream of of of this season
1:37
on Monday, December 23rd. Believe it's well just check
1:45
check the description of show notes.
1:46
It's either 7:00 PM Eastern or 8:00 PM Eastern.
1:48
I can't remember which, but there's going to be a link down
1:50
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1:57
It is a live broadcast, so it gives you the opportunity to
2:00
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2:03
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2:08
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2:13
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2:16
So I hope that you will all join me for the season finale, as it
2:21
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helps cover some, some, you know, minor expenses of things.
3:16
But I'm not going to go too much into that right now.
3:18
But you will be hearing more from me about that because I
3:20
have something very exciting that hopefully you've all seen
3:23
or at least heard of by now by the time this podcast airs.
3:28
And I'm going to be talking about that little bit later on
3:30
in the podcast. So thank you for listening.
3:32
If you want to become a patron on Patreon, you can do so.
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Just go to either the link tree link that's annotated here to
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For my Patreon viewers though, now that the attention has been
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Scald all the way up to the Aceir tier.
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Thank you all so very much. And being here to, to, to show
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in into January, you know. So if you're looking for a gift
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Here. You can go to
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patreon.com/midgard Musings slash gift.
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So that link will be also annotated in the show notes.
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I just put it up here on screen for those of you that are
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watching. But if you're here watching, you
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already know that this is what you get.
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And then there's different tiers of support.
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So anyway, Midgard musings or sorry, patreon.com/midgard
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Musings slash gift. All right, so thank you to my
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patrons on Patreon for for helping make this content, this
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video content possible. All right, now that we have
5:27
gotten some of the formalities, the housekeeping stuff out of
5:30
the way, what are we doing to be talking about on this, the
5:34
second to last episode of Season 5 of the podcast?
5:42
Well, you're all asking that to yourselves and I'm here to
5:45
answer. Or maybe you're not asking it to
5:48
yourself and you saw the the thumbnail.
5:50
You know what the announcement's going to be.
5:52
We're going to be talking today about oaths.
5:55
OK, now oaths in Kivenry is, is something that I've talked about
5:59
in many different episodes before.
6:02
If you're interested and you want to listen or watch any of
6:06
those episodes, I will have compiled them and linked them in
6:12
the show notes or down in the description area.
6:14
For those of you that do watch this on Patreon.
6:17
So for, you know, depending on how long you've, you've been
6:19
following my content, you know that that the, the, the topic of
6:22
oaths has been something of, of a, of AI wouldn't say regular
6:29
topic, but it's definitely a topic that comes up semi
6:32
frequently. And I have done videos or I have
6:35
done episodes of the podcast before that include this topic.
6:40
But the reason that we're going to be talking about this today
6:42
is that one of our patrons in the community, his name is
6:45
Michael and he's been a long time supporter of the show.
6:50
And this is the other cool thing, ladies and gentlemen, is,
6:53
is if you become a patron on Patreon, you have access to
6:57
chats that are only for patrons in in one of those chats, you
7:03
can request podcast topics. So you can recommend a topic.
7:07
You can, you know, you can share your thoughts or ideas about an
7:12
episode. And this is one that came to me
7:14
through this channel, through the through the podcast chat
7:19
feature on Patreon from Michael. And it was on the topic of oaths
7:25
between others and the gods. And so that's what this episode
7:32
is going to be about. And I'm going to read briefly
7:34
just a portion of what Michael had written into us about.
7:41
It was a question that was had at that point in time been
7:44
recently asked. So you know Michael, when you
7:45
watch this, thanks for your patience and and letting me get
7:48
through some other back catalog of items.
7:51
So at this point, you know, we're looking at about 3 weeks
7:53
ago, almost a month ago, but his but Michael's question was,
8:00
would it be breaking an oath if one made it to the gods about
8:09
someone else? But that person released them
8:16
from from that oath and called to the gods that I'm releasing
8:25
this person, right? So I guess the question at hand
8:28
was there was there was two different parties involved and
8:32
Michael was posed with a question from 1/2 of this said
8:36
party about an oath that was made to the gods and this person
8:44
about about a thing. I'm not going to go into very
8:48
deep detail, even though that the details were somewhat shared
8:52
with me in this message. No names were given, but it's
8:57
clearly a a situation of relationship nature.
9:04
Now, again, for the sake of listeners, for the sake of the
9:08
viewers, especially, I know the people who were being referred
9:14
to in Michael's message also watch or listen to this show.
9:19
And we want to be sure to keep people's identities confidential
9:24
unless they say otherwise. So we're not going to name names
9:27
and we're not going to get into the nitty gritty of things, but
9:30
suffice it to say there was a, there was a, there was a thing
9:34
going on in a relationship sort of situation where that
9:37
relationship was being severed. And the living arrangements, you
9:46
know, they were, they were, they were in the separation process,
9:49
You know, the, the, the, the, the dissolution of a or the
9:53
dissolving of a, of a relationship was, was in the
9:55
works. And one part of this situation,
10:00
one part of this relationship, one person did swear an oath
10:06
that this was, this was, again, this was an oath that was sworn
10:09
as, as, as, as was told to me before the gods and before this
10:13
other person. So an oath was sworn before the
10:17
gods in them that they wouldn't say anything about the
10:20
interactions between them and this, this person of interest
10:25
that the, the other half of the party was showing interest in.
10:27
So there was, you know, no longer interested in you, but
10:29
they were interested in someone else.
10:31
There was, you know, I, I swear that I'm not going to talk about
10:35
this to to others or or whatever.
10:39
But anyway, regardless of the details of, of, of that, and,
10:42
and I'm probably just getting into the weeds beyond what
10:44
really needs to be gotten into the advice that was given to
10:48
these people because of the question that was was posed was
10:51
again, would it be a situation of I, you know, an oath has been
10:56
broken. If the said person release them
11:03
from the oath, saying, hey, look, whatever you swore, I'm
11:05
not holding you to it. But at the same time, this
11:09
person said that, you know, I swore an oath to the gods.
11:13
So the, the, you know, the answer that was given to this
11:16
person was that, you know, anything that is given to the
11:23
gods is in the form of an oath. If you make an oath to the gods,
11:26
then you must keep it. If it was only to a person or
11:31
with another person, and then that person was released of that
11:36
oath saying, hey, you know, I no longer bind you to this
11:39
agreement, the social contract, if you will, then that would be
11:43
one thing. And then you wouldn't be bound
11:46
to that oath anymore. And therefore you wouldn't be
11:49
in, you know, non compliance of keeping it.
11:52
So you wouldn't be an oath breaker if you failed to to do
11:55
anything, but but because the gods were involved, you know, is
12:00
that is that does that basically does, does that override the
12:04
person's, you know, wish or desire to, to release that
12:09
person from this oath? So one of the things that, you
12:14
know, I, I'm thinking of when I hear stuff like this is if you,
12:19
if you follow the, the links to, to other episodes or other
12:24
content that I've created around oaths and, and the concept of
12:27
oathing in the Heathenry and what it means, you're probably
12:30
going to find what I'm about to say somewhere in, in that mix of
12:34
things, whether it's one video, 2 videos, I don't know.
12:37
But somewhere along the way, you're probably going to find or
12:39
hear what I'm about to say in there.
12:41
So to save you that, and so you can hear it now and, and, and
12:44
get the gist of what I'm saying now is that, you know, oaths
12:49
amongst heathens and oaths, especially in heathenry are way
12:55
more severe. They're more important.
12:59
They carry more weight than just promising to do something.
13:04
It's, it's, it's, it's not the same, OK.
13:08
An oath is not the same as a promise, even though there is a
13:12
sense and there is a, there is a touch of, of what a promise
13:16
means in an oath. So what do I mean by that?
13:23
You know, I can, I can promise my to either to myself or to
13:29
others, you know, and people have done this.
13:31
Even, you know, now in, in modern times is, is, is people
13:33
will promise something or they'll, you know, give some
13:36
sort of conviction, you know, you know, in, in what they're
13:40
saying that, you know, I will do XYZ or I won't do XYZ.
13:46
You know, I will or I won't do this.
13:47
And I promise to abide by what I'm saying.
13:52
Now there's what, you know, what happens if you don't?
13:57
What happens if you either do the thing that you say you're
13:59
not going to do or don't do this thing that you say you're, we're
14:02
going to do. If it's just a promise, if you
14:05
say something and don't do it. Most people nowadays don't
14:09
understand the weight of what that means, you know, So OK,
14:12
well, So what if I didn't the liver?
14:15
So what if I didn't keep my promise?
14:17
You know, what's the big deal? Oops, I'm sorry.
14:19
It won't happen again. You know, it's very dismissive.
14:22
It tends to be at least and and the the weight of a promise is
14:25
has been lost is especially I believe in in recent time, you
14:31
know, it wasn't all that long ago.
14:32
And when I say not all that long ago, I'm talking, you know,
14:34
within the last generation or two of, of, of, of recent
14:40
history. So, you know, you want to say
14:41
the last 100 years or so, you know, a man's word or a person's
14:44
word meant something. If you said you were going to do
14:49
something, it was expected that that's what you were going to
14:52
do. And if you didn't, again,
14:56
depending on what, what was at stake and what was happening,
14:59
you know, you, your, your, your honor would diminish, especially
15:05
if you hadn't, if you, if you, or if you had promised or, or,
15:09
or given an oath or whatever to do something and then
15:11
relinquished or, or not relinquished but fell short of
15:17
that, you know, you weren't, you weren't, you weren't measuring
15:22
up to the standard that you set. So at the very least, you know,
15:27
at one point in time, not all that long ago, you know, people
15:30
who didn't keep their oath, didn't keep their promises even
15:34
would be seen as, you know, as as lacking honor.
15:37
And, and and they wouldn't be esteemed as highly in in society
15:42
or in their communities because they couldn't be trusted.
15:46
You know, their word wasn't worth anything if you know, so
15:50
they couldn't be trusted and they couldn't, you know, be seen
15:54
as as someone or as of of an important honor.
15:57
You know, their, their honor was, was damaged, OK.
16:03
And this is especially true of, of oaths in, in heathen times of
16:07
in, in, in Germanic culture, when, when an oath was given or
16:11
taken, that meant everything. And the breaking of an oath was
16:18
it was, it was not even it, it, it wasn't something that, that,
16:22
that the culture at that time wanted to entertain even the
16:25
possibility of doing because it was so bad.
16:28
Most of the sources would reflect a a, a sense of outlawry
16:33
or you would be, you know, cast out of a society or you would be
16:36
outlawed if you didn't keep your oath.
16:43
So it's understandable why, you know, heathens nowadays knowing
16:46
that and and hearing about that in different sources, would want
16:52
to make sure that their oath is kept.
16:56
Now herein enters the the the predicament or the paradox of
17:02
what is an oath and what constitutes an oath.
17:07
An oath has to be something that is that that or that involves at
17:13
least 2 two different parties. So there has to be, for it to be
17:19
an oath in a heathen context, an oath has to be something that is
17:26
given and taken, you know, so given and received.
17:31
If there has to be this, this exchange happening when the oath
17:36
process goes, is, is underway. So what do I mean by that?
17:44
Well, if I'm, I'll just use an example of, of, of myself and,
17:52
and my tribe because it's the closest thing that I can relate
17:56
to and it's closest thing that I can provide an example for of
18:01
something in modern times that has echoes in memory of, of, of,
18:06
of an older, you know, pre Christian Germanic heathen model
18:15
or view of, of, of the world. So when in our tribe, when,
18:20
whenever an oath is to be given, right.
18:23
If if a member of the tribe wants to give an oath, they
18:27
cannot do so frivolously. They can't do so all Willy nilly
18:31
and they can't just say, hey, guys, I promised to this, that
18:33
or the other. And you know, it, it, it's, it's
18:36
a, it's serious business because not only are they involved, but
18:42
everybody else in the tribe is involved.
18:45
An oath can't be sworn without the first of all, the vetting of
18:50
said oath by our Thule. And so this is a this is a
18:56
reflection of a, a, an old English poem called Beowulf.
19:01
So you know, most people that that listen to this content know
19:04
who you know the saga, the Beowulf saga.
19:07
And then they know that when you know, Beowulf comes to to to to
19:15
Rothgar's hall and and Unferth is the is the fool is the King's
19:20
kind of advisor or his, you know, kind of right hand man
19:26
sort of thing. You know, people know that, that
19:28
have read the saga or that have, you know, gleaned from it enough
19:31
to know that when, when Beowulf boasts or or or says that he's
19:34
going to do something great, you know, he makes this oath unferf
19:40
as the as the Thule says, hold on, right, You, you what makes
19:46
you think that you're so great to be able to do this?
19:47
He challenges the oath because, metaphysically speaking, what is
19:54
happening when an oath is being given is that not only is the
19:58
person who is giving this oath responsible for achieving it to
20:02
preserve and retain their honor, the luck of everybody else
20:07
that's there is on the line as well.
20:11
So to give an oath frivolously or carelessly should be.
20:18
Avoided at all costs because again, it's it's, it's your luck
20:21
on the line and everyone else's. And that is why we have such a
20:26
process in place in our tribe as to safeguard and protect the
20:30
luck of the person who wants to give the oath and the members of
20:36
the tribe who are their present to receive it and to take it as
20:41
your oath is now something that you are bound to accomplish.
20:44
You have to your honor is on the line and our luck is on the
20:47
line. And if you fail to do it, you
20:49
could face dire consequences. There could be shield or a fee
20:57
or a penalty that is paid. And depending on the severity
21:01
of, of, of the, of the oath, right a bit, the, the weight of
21:07
the oath will determine by again, at the Thule's
21:11
discretion, at that the fuel's decision, he or she, they will
21:15
determine what if the oath is not kept, what the penalty
21:19
should be. And it could be up to and
21:22
including outlawry, at least for us, for, for our tribes customs,
21:27
right? So these are, again, what I'm
21:29
saying, what I'm saying right now is these are things that
21:32
have have been kind of established as our, through our,
21:35
our custom. So please don't listen and think
21:38
like, well, just because this is the way that, you know, this
21:40
tribe does it or this group does it is the way that all heathens
21:43
do it. You might, if you're exposed to
21:46
different groups and you've been around and you might hear or see
21:49
very similar things, that's not uncommon.
21:54
Please just realize that what I'm saying is, is very specific
21:56
to, to, to our way of doing things.
21:59
OK. Now on what basis am I, are we
22:08
determining this or on what basis is any other group, you
22:12
know determining this? And again it goes back to the
22:15
discretion or, or, or the, the, the customs of the group and how
22:20
they want to conduct themselves and how they want to safeguard
22:23
and protect their luck. Is there any real historical
22:27
source that we have been able to find that can definitively say
22:35
for sure that the Germanic tribes, you know, whether it
22:40
was, you know, continental Germanic lands or or
22:43
Scandinavian, you know, places? Is there anything that we can
22:47
definitively say for sure that, you know, an oath being broken
22:57
meant outlawry for sure, or it meant, you know, paying shield
23:02
or, you know, anything like that?
23:04
And the answer to that is, you know, no, there's really not.
23:07
There's there's nothing that if you wanted to say, you know,
23:11
historically speaking, what happened to people who broke
23:15
their oaths, the good luck finding anything.
23:20
I mean, if you do and you know of something, you know of a
23:22
source or specific, like you know something in the source
23:27
material, whether it's a saga or, or or or anything that can,
23:30
that can definitely say without a question that oath Breakers
23:36
had to do XYZ or they were treated a certain way, then then
23:39
please share. But people who have spent a lot
23:43
longer than I have researching these things haven't been able
23:47
to find anything definitively OK in the sense, and again in the
23:55
context, like for example, nothing that we know of in the
23:58
Eddas or the sagas so far. Give an example of a punishment
24:08
or shield meaning fee or or recompense.
24:11
You know, no punishment being handed out by either the tribal
24:18
structure, the immediate unit, whether it was the Saxons or any
24:23
other tribe of of of Germanic lineage.
24:27
Nor is there anything that we know of documented in those
24:30
sources that suggest that a punishment would have been dealt
24:33
out at thing, the annual thing or an all thing where all the
24:38
tribes would come and assemble and have representatives from
24:41
their respective groups show up at that this assembly in, in,
24:46
in, in in any sort of way that suggests punishment would have
24:49
been handed out or meted out or dealt with for oath Breakers.
24:55
So the question does lie again. You know, we talked about
24:59
something of such a severity of such a, of such a weighty
25:01
matter, right? Oaths and breaking of them and
25:03
such. How is it handled?
25:05
How, how is that, you know, such a weighty thing handled in local
25:12
communities now? And today, all we know for sure
25:16
is given the source material that does exist, is we know that
25:19
breaking an oath was bad news. If you did it, you were, you
25:24
were your your honor had been diminished, your honor had been
25:28
lost. And so because of the society,
25:34
because of the way that the society was and because of the
25:36
way that the these people viewed the world at the time, it was
25:39
something that wasn't they didn't want to do there.
25:41
There was no desire, there was no reason for them to, to, to,
25:45
to, to even entertain the thought of the idea of, of
25:48
losing their honor. It was it was bad news to to do
25:52
so because those without honor were were were were cast out.
25:58
They were, they were outlawed. And often, often times going
26:02
back to the Beowulf saga on in one of the verses, and this is
26:06
Beowulf speaking, he says, and this is I think verse yeah,
26:10
verse 2736 of the Beowulf story. Is he?
26:14
He says at home I waited for what fate might come and I cared
26:18
for mine own feuds. I did not seek nor did I ever
26:22
swear a false oath. He knew that this was bad news
26:27
and he knew that there was nothing to be this, you know,
26:29
nothing to be played with. Oaths that were sworn meant
26:36
something. Are there sources that's that
26:40
that that might suggest people swearing oaths to deity?
26:48
And then and here, here again is is where I go back to, you know,
26:53
what does what, what did the oath mean to the Germanic
26:56
peoples? And what examples do we see of
26:58
oaths being sworn? There were there were parties
27:00
involved. There were steps in place to
27:04
protect or safeguard everybody. Again, you know, you look at
27:10
the, the, the Beowulf saga. This is just, you know, this is
27:13
one example of when, when Beowulf, you know, gives his
27:17
bait and, and oaths to, to kill Grendel, Unferth is there to
27:22
challenge him. And then, you know, there's this
27:26
back and forth going between the two of them.
27:28
And then ultimately at the end of it, you know, Unferth is the
27:31
one that sets it says, you know, whether this is acceptable or
27:34
not. And the Chief, the Troughton,
27:36
the, the Chieftain, can, you know, he or she, you know, they,
27:46
they, they're the ones that can say, ultimately this is we're
27:49
going to do this or we're not one of the oldest things that we
27:58
know of or one of the oldest sources that, that we can go
28:01
back to and know of where, in what, in what context and what
28:05
ways oaths were so meaningful was in the, the war bands, you
28:10
know, the warrior culture of, of Germanic tribes.
28:14
So it's, it seems that at one point, especially early on, that
28:19
oaths of, of loyalty, oaths of fealty, oaths of trust and truth
28:24
between a war band, you know, the warriors and their, their
28:28
war chief. This was something that is that
28:31
is documented by Tacitus. So in Germania, another great
28:39
source for understanding the, the, the, the, the ways that the
28:45
Germanic peoples behaved prior to the Christianization of any
28:49
of the realms. Because again, Tacitus was a
28:51
Roman Pagan himself. So he was, he was documenting
28:55
and he was seeing things of the Germanic peoples of the area and
28:59
their Pagan ways. So his his his source of, you
29:03
know, Germania and and the way he writes is not coming from a
29:07
position of bias as if he were a Christian like so many of the
29:10
later sources have the propensity to be because they
29:15
were written later on after and during or after the the areas
29:21
were already Christianized. So anyway, as Tacitus says in
29:26
Germania regarding the war bans and warriors swearing oaths of
29:31
loyalty to their Drolton or their Yarl or their chief or
29:34
whatever, he says that that when they go into battle, it is a
29:37
disgrace for the chief to be surpassed in valor, a disgrace
29:42
for his followers not to equal the valor of the chief.
29:47
And it is an infamy and a reproach for one to have
29:53
survived the chief and returned from the field to defend, to
29:59
protect him, to ascribe 1's own brave deeds to his renown is the
30:04
height of loyalty. The chief fights for victory.
30:08
His vessels fight for their chief.
30:14
This is a very, very specific, again, subset of a society, you
30:22
know. So think about the fact that not
30:25
every person who lived at this time were warriors, you know,
30:31
but we, this is some of the earliest known context of, of
30:34
where oaths originated from and why it was so damn heavy, why it
30:39
was so important and why it was so weighty for oaths to be kept
30:44
because lives were on the line. And, and you also didn't want to
30:49
live in such a way that was, it was a was diminishing to your,
30:55
to your Lord, to, to the person who you were swearing your
30:58
fealty to, to your, your loyalty to.
31:02
And it's also to be noted that again, that, that, that swearing
31:05
of loyalty was an exchange of that, you know, the, the, the
31:11
vassals, the things of of the war chief, we're now under his
31:20
protection and under his care. So a good chief, you know, would
31:26
make sure that his people were taken care of and his warriors
31:29
were his nearest because they were the ones that helped
31:33
protect the rest of the tribe. So it was in the the the vassals
31:37
good interest and best interest to be dedicated and loyal and
31:41
and do all the things that would bring honor to their chief
31:46
because they treated him good. He treated them good.
31:52
So I feel like there's, you know, if you go back far enough
31:54
and you see that that's where it all came from and how it has
31:58
carried on through the millennia, through the years.
32:01
And then now we reach, you know, modern times and you know, you
32:04
have people claiming to to make oaths to gods.
32:09
How can one enter into an oath contract?
32:12
How can one swear fealty or truth or loyalty to a God
32:19
without there being a, a, a, a set exchange of conditions?
32:26
So far as we know, from the way it was done in, in, in the
32:30
historical sources, You know, it's not like you're standing in
32:34
front of Freya or Thor or Odin or Freg or Balder or Tyr or
32:40
Forsetti or any of the, you know, of any of the gods or
32:44
goddesses with a physical representation of them being
32:49
there and other parties involved in a fool to set the shield or
32:52
set the, you know what I mean? It's a totally different
32:56
dynamic. It's, it's a person, you know,
33:05
believing and entering into a, a, a mental state of dedication
33:09
or devotion to that deity, to that God, to that goddess and
33:16
promising very harshly, right? Like the putting in with all
33:23
their heart a promise to not do this, that or the other.
33:26
Well, what are the conditions if you break the promise?
33:29
How, how is that shield set if you break your promise right
33:34
now? And I'll use a very kind of
33:37
basic example, right? But let's just say you want to,
33:41
for, for the sake of arguments, somebody wants to give an oath
33:46
of working out because they want to honor Thor.
33:51
You know, they, they, they want to get strong and they want to
33:53
work out and they want to, you know, honor him and, and, and
33:58
honor their, their bodies and, and do things that would be
34:02
pleasing to Thor as he is the champion of the gods and he's
34:04
the strongest of the gods, or so they want to be the strongest
34:07
version of themselves. And let's say, say they swear an
34:09
oath that they will work out, you know, five days a week for
34:13
the rest of their lives, you know, in honor of Thor.
34:17
Well, what happens when you get sick?
34:20
What happens when the gym closes?
34:22
What happens when you have an injury?
34:24
What happens when you get too old?
34:26
What happens? What happens, right?
34:27
All these things you say, you, you, you're, you're going to
34:29
claim this, this promise. And you may be an oath, right?
34:32
I will work out for five days of the week every every week until
34:36
I, you know, for the rest of my life.
34:40
You are not going to be able to keep that oath that that's an
34:43
oath that cannot be kept because you will not be able to work out
34:47
five days of the week for the rest of your life.
34:50
Something is going to happen. There will be things that happen
34:52
that are going to prevent you from fulfilling it.
34:54
So then do you become an oath breaker because of an
34:58
extenuating circumstances? Well, how can you know?
35:01
Because the shield wasn't set, there was no, you know,
35:05
definitive fee to pay. Should you have a situation
35:12
arise where you know, and that's the difference between an oath
35:16
and a promise, you know, you can make a promise and then and if
35:20
you break your promise of over extenuating circumstances,
35:22
what's on the line, what's at stake?
35:25
You know, you know, I made a promise and I'm doing the best
35:28
that I can. But when the gym closes, you
35:31
know, I got caught in traffic. I was, I got caught over at
35:33
work. I was sick and I couldn't make
35:35
it. You know, Hey, at least there's
35:38
not, you know, there's nothing that is an oath, the sense of a
35:43
real oath there to keep you from, you know, or making you an
35:49
oath breaker if you if you just fail to go because of
35:51
extenuating circumstances, maybe that were out of your control.
35:56
Going back to the the thing that that that was posted on in in
36:00
Patreon there, you know, an oath between others and the gods.
36:05
This is where I have a hard time personally coming up with an
36:10
answer because I don't personally think that you can
36:13
oath to the gods, you know, or swear an oath to the gods.
36:20
You can pledge your loyalty. You can pledge your devotion to
36:25
a deity. You know, if, if a person wants
36:27
to say, I am going to devote my life to Freya, you know, and her
36:32
love and her passion and her magic and, and all of the things
36:36
that are what she represents to the person or to the, you know,
36:41
and they devote their life or their efforts to doing it.
36:47
You know, I think that's, I think that's one thing.
36:51
I don't think it's the same as an oath because again, if you
36:56
fail it, you know, how, how is, how is the shield?
37:01
How is the recompense paid? How is the wear Guild another
37:05
term that can can sometimes get used in in these contexts?
37:07
How is that delivered? How is that paid to to to to
37:12
match the the the the transgression of failing to keep
37:16
the oath? They're gods, They're they're
37:20
the divine beings. How is that?
37:22
How can that be done? Now if, if, if you're UPG comes
37:31
into the, into the mix and you know, you have people saying,
37:33
well, I, you know, was visited in a dream and this is what was
37:36
happened. And that's your UPG and that's
37:37
how you want to conduct and live your life.
37:40
Fine, by all means. That sort of thing cannot be
37:45
brought into the same conversation and carry the same
37:49
weight as somebody as as as, as something like what I'm
37:53
describing here, like the, the, the, the historical context of
37:57
an oath. You know, what were oaths sworn
38:00
upon? Well, they were sworn upon
38:02
rings. They were sworn upon Staffs and
38:04
at least by the Saxons, they were sworn on ships.
38:07
They were sworn on bristles of boar.
38:10
You know, they were sworn on other items in various sources.
38:16
I'll hear on screen. I'll show you, You know, there's
38:21
here's a bunch of things of, of examples of, of oaths being
38:26
sworn on on different items, you know, rings, ships, swords, you
38:34
know, stabs, like I say, but you know, the Saxons stones, you
38:44
know, like there, there's so many things that in different
38:47
sources can can point to the fact that there was an item that
38:50
needed to be sworn on. There were people there that
38:53
needed to be the ones as, as witness to this oath to, to sort
38:57
of make sure that what this person that, you know, saying
39:00
that they were going to do that they were being done.
39:04
And, and quite possibly, again, we don't know.
39:06
We don't know what or if any punishments were dealt out, you
39:10
know, possibly a shield or recompense or a fee that was
39:16
enacted to, to, to say, hey, if you, if you don't do this, you
39:18
have to do something else to, to put things back into balance.
39:24
So would, would a person feel guilty?
39:30
Would a person feel a sense of shame?
39:33
Perhaps if they, you know, raise their hammer or their horn to
39:39
the sky and said, you know, by Thor, I swear I will do this,
39:43
that or the other. And then when they don't deliver
39:46
or when something happens and it's not seen through, would
39:51
they feel shame? Would they feel guilt about not
39:53
doing that? Of course they would.
39:55
Because in their way, this gesture of pledging this, this,
40:01
you know, fealty, not fealty, but like pledging this promise
40:05
to the gods and they failed to do it.
40:09
Yeah, they would feel terrible about it.
40:11
Does that make them an oath breaker?
40:12
I I respectfully say no in that context because the conditions
40:17
of what an oath is was never set.
40:23
If a person and parties involved have agreed upon the conditions
40:29
of the oath, right and, and they, they, the, the one person
40:36
who upon you know, to whom the oath was sworn says, hey, given
40:42
the circumstance given, whatever it is, you know, I understand
40:47
this was your oath. However, you know, I, I no
40:50
longer hold you to this oath. I release you from this oath.
40:55
I release you from your vow. Whatever that person's honor is
41:00
not compromised. Their honor is retained because
41:04
they are not the ones that made the conscious effort or did the
41:08
thing to break the oath. They were released of it.
41:11
And so therefore, the they have retained their honor.
41:19
These are these are things of an opinion to me again, based upon
41:24
just some of what I've shared already in this in this episode.
41:28
It is some opinion based and some, you know, based on on what
41:35
I know of historically being accurate.
41:38
As most of you know, I am not a 100% reconstructionist type
41:44
heathen. I don't, I don't, I don't
41:46
exclusively stay in that side of things.
41:50
I am a modern heathen. I believe in that we are, you
41:54
know, practicing old ways in modern times.
41:56
But what those old ways are defined as, you know,
42:00
reconstructionist have a very specific definition for what old
42:06
ways are. And I try to respect that
42:10
sentiment by saying, you know, what old ways are are truly old
42:13
ways. What were the ways that we know
42:16
of practiced by these people before Christianization, before
42:21
the conversion? Those are old ways.
42:25
If if it's in relatively speaking, if you want to say,
42:28
well, you know, it's 1000 years old.
42:30
And well, if they were Christian at that point in time, it's, you
42:33
know, 1000 years is old. Not going to argue with that,
42:38
but I think in the context of what we mean by old ways is
42:40
that, you know, these are these are ways that that predate when
42:46
these countries, when these lands were Christianized, they
42:49
were they they had their old Pagan beliefs and they were old
42:53
at that time that thousand or more years ago, you know.
43:00
So my point being is that, you know, for those of you that know
43:02
that know I'm not a, a, a, a hardcore reconstructionist, I
43:07
don't exclusively stay there. I lean heavily on some of that
43:10
stuff because I know that that's where this is coming from.
43:13
Where where this, this, this, this way of thinking, this this
43:18
practice, this thing of Heathenry now and modernize.
43:21
This is where it originated from.
43:22
This is where it comes from. So understanding and learning
43:25
and knowing the root of it, I think is important.
43:28
What you want to do with it at that point is up to you.
43:31
How you want to integrate that or or or leverage it for your
43:35
practices is is entirely up to you.
43:38
I'm not in a position to say you're wrong or right one way or
43:41
the other for doing it, but facts are facts, OK?
43:47
And factually speaking, I think that the evidence that we have
43:50
so far of how the oath was seen and perceived and known by
43:56
dramatic peoples points very heavily at the fact that this
44:03
was not something that was done between mortals, between
44:08
mankind, humankind and the sacred, the divine, the gods.
44:17
There has to be this agreement, there has to be this contract as
44:20
a social contract established. There has to be this exchange
44:25
happening with the parties involved to for it to be an
44:30
oath. All right, a pledge, a
44:32
dedication is one thing and it's not the same as an oath.
44:39
So getting back to to, you know, the question, would it be
44:45
breaking an oath if one made it to the gods about someone else
44:49
and then that person released them of that oath and call to
44:52
the gods that they released to again, I think at that point, if
44:57
the person releases it, then it's a then it's a then it's
44:59
released. There's there's no contract
45:01
there by needing to be preserved that you know, you're not
45:04
needing to do the thing that you say or that you know, to do or
45:08
not do. It's done and over with.
45:11
I don't think, I don't think the gods are, are sitting around
45:19
again, UPG warning. I, I personally don't think that
45:22
the gods are sitting around waiting for people in Midgard
45:26
to, to, to, to, you know, swear oaths before or have them, you
45:32
know, swear oaths before them, Meaning the gods.
45:36
I don't think that it's, I don't think that what they are acting
45:40
on, you know, their own agency, their own activities are, are
45:45
that heavily integrated into our lives.
45:49
I don't think that's how our relationship with the gods
45:51
generally work. Are there exceptions?
45:54
Would there be in a case and then, you know, in a time where,
45:56
you know, perhaps that that that might be different And it's
45:59
again, done in a way that that means something to that group?
46:05
Yeah, I'm sure that there would be, you know, I'm sure that
46:06
there would be cases or occasions where, you know, a
46:12
person or or two people even, you know, enter into an oath,
46:17
such as like a marriage, and vows are exchanged.
46:23
You know, oaths are exchanged between those people.
46:25
And the gods are there as witnesses, Right.
46:28
Wedding ceremonies, other such things where the gods are called
46:32
upon as witnesses. I don't think again that that is
46:36
the same thing as we're talking about here, because them as
46:39
witnesses are witnessing the oath.
46:41
Are they they'll are they now thereby intertwined into that
46:45
oath web? And should the marriage dissolve
46:48
or, or should something happen where one or the other person of
46:52
the marriage breaks their vow and, and is in, you know,
46:55
adulterous or, you know, there's infidelity or any such thing
46:58
that could, you know, be considered as a breaking of the
47:00
oath? Are the gods going to have
47:02
anything to do with that? Are are they going to be
47:06
impacted by the breaking of the oath?
47:08
I don't think so. You know, so again, it's, I
47:12
don't think that the dynamic between US and the gods and the
47:14
oath structure is I don't think that works that way.
47:22
You should do everything in your power to keep your oaths right.
47:26
Whatever. If, if you enter into a, a, a
47:28
contract with with someone, you know, oath or not, like what you
47:33
say you're going to do, you should do it.
47:36
It, it, it's going to bode well for you.
47:39
You know, I'm going to, I say I'm going to do something, I'm
47:41
going to do it. If I say I'm not going to do
47:42
something that I'm not going to do it.
47:45
It's just better for you overall to do that.
47:49
It's even a weightier thing and it's even a greater importance
47:53
when other people are involved when an oath is sworn.
47:59
I, I, again, I believe that even though there's nothing of
48:04
historical source that can say that punishment or shield was,
48:07
was dealt out, I think that that's something that in modern
48:10
times needs to be done. I think that those safeguards
48:13
should be put in place. You know, are you going to swear
48:17
an oath of this or that? Well, what happens if you break
48:21
it? You should pay the pay, pay the
48:25
penalty, pay the shield. So advice that was given in this
48:31
context back, going back to the Patreon question was that, you
48:34
know, you, if you make it to the gods, you must keep it.
48:38
If it was only to that person, then you would be released of
48:41
that oath when they released you from it.
48:46
That again, I, you know, yes, do everything in your power to keep
48:49
it, but I don't I personally don't think that that we ever
48:54
enter into an oath with the gods there there's it doesn't mean
49:00
the same thing. It's not the same thing as it is
49:02
with us and and other people. So again, I'm I'm interested to
49:08
to hear feedback from people. If you have been able to find
49:12
something very definitive that's, you know, 100% without a
49:18
doubt gives an example of what happens to people or what
49:24
happened to people who broke their oaths.
49:31
You know, was there shield that was paid?
49:35
Was there punishment dealt out? And I'm talking, you know, a
49:37
source I know that, you know, we hear about in like, I think it's
49:43
Snorri's prose at a you know, where, where oath Breakers and
49:47
kin slayers, you know that they, they, they go to, you know, in,
49:53
into a, into a place of Helheim where they are tormented by the
49:58
dragon, you know, Nathog and, and and that's myth, right?
50:08
Where did that myth come from? Where does it find?
50:13
Where do we see examples of that in pre Christian Germanic
50:17
sources? I don't know.
50:20
I haven't found it yet. If you know of a pre Christian
50:23
Germanic source that is older than Snorri's Edo that talks
50:26
about that, let me know please. I'm I'm still looking.
50:33
I'm, I'm, I'm open to, to, to investigate myself if you find
50:37
anything. So bear that in mind, right?
50:41
If you, if you, you're saying, well, yeah, you know, Snorri
50:43
said in, in the pros at a rate like it's, you know, the oath
50:45
Slayer, oath Breakers, kinslayers and adulterers or
50:50
whatever, you know, or sounds pretty Christian to me.
50:56
But again, it does reflect the fact that, you know, oath
50:58
Breakers, bad news. Nobody wanted to be an oath
51:01
breaker. And I feel like once that region
51:05
was becoming Christianized, you know, there were efforts to to
51:11
carry that idea over into the fact that, oh, Yep, well, when
51:14
your soul departs from your body and you go to your the place of
51:18
your ancestors, if you did that in your life, then you're going
51:20
to be tormented and you're going to be punished in death or
51:24
afterlife. You know, don't know if that was
51:29
a old ways model of thinking. I just think that they knew that
51:34
that was, that was terrible for them.
51:36
If they would lose their honor, they would become an outlaw.
51:40
And if you were outlawed back then, you didn't have your
51:43
tribe, you didn't have your society to help with things.
51:45
You were susceptible to everything.
51:48
The wild villains, bandits, robbery, you know what I mean?
51:52
Like you were, you were, you could be killed on sight.
51:55
It was, it was bad. It was bad for you to be
51:58
outlawed. So it was bad to do anything
52:01
that would, you know, 'cause your honor to be, to be lost.
52:06
So just don't do it. And that's again, I think it it,
52:11
it carries over now into today. And you know, people, yeah, say
52:14
don't do it. Well, why don't we want to do
52:16
it? Because at one point in time it
52:18
literally meant, you know, your life.
52:22
So think about it all, you know, let me know which is which is
52:25
think down in the comments. I did mention early on at the
52:29
beginning of the episode that I that I would, would talk a
52:32
little bit about an opportunity or something when it came to
52:35
write my Patreon and all that. So I'm just going to do it now
52:40
since we're wrapping things up. I've been given a very unique
52:45
opportunity. I announced it earlier this
52:48
week. The announcement for that will
52:52
be will be LinkedIn this episode too.
52:54
So you know, down in the description over in the show
52:56
notes, there's a there's an announcement.
52:58
It's like a minute and a half long thing of what it is.
53:00
But I'll just tell you now, I was invited to come to Salsa
53:06
Alaska, which I believe is in the Fairbanks area next year at
53:12
the end of August going into like the Memorial Day weekend,
53:16
you know, so end of August, 1st of September, that weekend to
53:20
come up to Salsa Alaska and be a guest there to participate in a,
53:29
a weekend long event called Heathen Days and Pagan Nights.
53:33
And it's been going on for several years now.
53:37
And this year they have a theme every year they've had they've,
53:45
you know, for the last few years that they've been doing this.
53:47
And this year, this year coming in 2025, that theme is going to
53:51
be Legends of the Wild. But anyway, I was invited by the
53:55
event organizers to come to Alaska and I was blown away to
54:03
think that I was given this a chance and opportunity.
54:07
So why am I talking about it on this podcast now?
54:09
You guys are going to be hearing about it probably a lot.
54:13
Just fair warning. I, I'm, I'm going to need some
54:17
help. I'm going to need some help from
54:18
the community. I'm, I'm going to have to work
54:20
really extra hard, you know, at, at doing things that are a
54:23
little bit out of my comfort zone to ensure that I'm able to
54:27
get there and do everything that I can to, to, to, to produce
54:31
good quality content. I was invited to come to the
54:33
event, not just to come and, and hang out, but to, but to, but to
54:38
do an episode of the podcast and to teach some classes and, and,
54:40
and to be present in there. So I've got, you know, an
54:44
itinerary of things that are going to be expected of me to do
54:48
and, and all that's in the planning stages right now, but
54:52
I'm going to need help from the community.
54:54
And the best way that that people, if they want to help,
54:58
can do so is join my Patreon. Everybody that has been
55:04
listening or watching my content knows that I don't, you know, I
55:07
don't really push this brand. I'm not looking to to make I'm
55:15
not looking to make this my, my, my day job, right.
55:19
This is something I enjoy doing and it's something that people
55:23
enjoy me doing. Now, getting from Tennessee to
55:28
Alaska with my wife is going to be something that I need to work
55:33
extra hard for. The event organizers are, are
55:37
getting me up there that no expense to me, you know, So full
55:41
transparency, this is I'm not asking for, for, for something
55:44
from, from all of you, from this community to benefit me.
55:50
You know, like I said, I'm not trying to make this my, my, my
55:53
day job. All I'm trying to do is I'm
55:55
trying to work hard and, and help get some expenses paid to
56:00
help bring my wife along with me so she can be there to support
56:03
and enjoy what I'm doing as well.
56:06
So what does that mean? That means that the way that you
56:10
can help is become a patron on Patreon for just a dollar
56:16
between this platform and everywhere else that this
56:20
podcast is listened to and streamed across my various
56:25
social medias, I have close to 30,000 followers.
56:31
Now I know that that doesn't translate to real people, but
56:35
even if 1% of that 30,000, just 1%, all right, So however many
56:42
people listen to this show or watch this show, if you're
56:47
watching this, you're already doing the thing and I appreciate
56:50
that and thank you very much. If you're listening to this and
56:54
you're catching this, if just 1% of that nearly 30,000 follow
57:01
follower base were to join and pledge a dollar support for my
57:08
Patreon, it's a dollar. You know, $1.00 a month for the
57:15
next 5 or 6 months would make this whole thing happening in
57:20
Alaska next year so great for my wife and I.
57:25
It would allow me to upgrade equipment.
57:28
It would allow me to bring greater quality content, not
57:31
just for the event, but for future episodes of this podcast.
57:36
And it wouldn't cost anybody more than just one dollar.
57:40
I'm not asking you to become $5.10 dollars, $20 or whatever
57:44
tier. I'm not asking for for much.
57:47
All I'm asking is to please consider joining my Patreon at a
57:51
$1.00 a month pledge. And it wouldn't be
57:57
astronomically appreciative and, and, and helpful in, in what
58:02
this opportunity that I've been given.
58:05
You know, I, I mentioned earlier that earlier this week when,
58:08
when I made the announcement that I have had so many things
58:11
happen over the years that I've been doing this six years that
58:14
I've been producing content that have been challenging, that
58:18
have, you know, brought me to the point of wanting to just
58:20
throw the towel in and quit. OK.
58:23
And most of the time when I get to that point, I have a lot of
58:30
people backing me up saying no, you know, take time off, you
58:35
know, do what you need to do to to to take care of yourself.
58:38
But, you know, we love what you do.
58:41
And I appreciate all of the the kindness and support because
58:44
it's because of that that I've been given this chance and this
58:47
opportunity to go to Alaska for the first time in my life, to
58:51
speak to people, to produce content in front of people, to
58:54
have this experience in front of other people that far away from
58:58
Tennessee to Alaska ain't no, you know, stroll down the
59:01
street. This opportunity has come to me.
59:06
Thanks to all of you. So going back to the whole
59:11
gifting thing, you know, if it's yield time and you want to, you
59:14
know, if you want to six dollars, $7.00, if you want to
59:20
gift somebody six or seven months worth of my podcast, $10
59:27
even, you know, 10 episodes, 10/10/10, ten months.
59:31
Again, that $1.00 a month, I do episodes almost every week.
59:35
So that's three to four episodes a month that you'll have video
59:38
access to for just a dollar a month.
59:42
You know, you can do $1.00, two, you can do several months if you
59:45
want, If you want to gift somebody that it helps this show
59:49
out greatly. Midgard Musings or sorry,
59:55
patreon.com/midgardmusings/gift link for that will be down below
1:00:00
or in the, in the show notes. And yeah, I will be talking
1:00:04
about it more because again, this is part of the work that I
1:00:06
have to do. I want to, I want to really push
1:00:08
to, to, to, to see this happen. So you're hearing it here first
1:00:13
now. And I will, I will be forever
1:00:16
grateful. I'm, I'm already grateful for
1:00:19
this opportunity to be able to go to Alaska and any help that
1:00:22
you want to provide or, or or you know, contribute to.
1:00:28
Along the way the, the event isn't until August, so August
1:00:32
30th through the 1st that that that Memorial Day weekend or
1:00:37
sorry, that Labor Day weekend, you know, so it's, it's a little
1:00:41
bit less than a year away, but it's plenty of time to, to, to
1:00:44
make this, this thing the best that it possibly can be.
1:00:50
So links about the event. I'm sure you know this will get
1:00:53
to the ears, maybe even the eyes of some folks up in that way of
1:00:57
Alaska. I'm looking forward to seeing
1:00:59
you all out there next year. The event details will be posted
1:01:02
in the the podcast show notes and down in the description for
1:01:05
you folks on Patreon watching all of that stuff's going to be
1:01:08
there. So sorry for going a bit off on
1:01:13
a tangent, but I'm also not sorry because the reason why I
1:01:17
get to do this now is because of the faith that you've all had in
1:01:21
me and, and pushing me and encouraging me to not give up.
1:01:26
And I'm forever grateful for that.
1:01:29
So Michael, thank you for commenting on this a couple of
1:01:33
weeks ago. And thank you for being patient
1:01:34
for, you know, being patient with me as I, as I go through
1:01:40
some stuff and getting this content out.
1:01:41
I hope that this video, me talking about this topic today
1:01:45
was helpful. Please comment down below if
1:01:48
you're watching this and let me know what you think.
1:01:52
Feel free to write in your thoughts to the podcast.
1:01:54
If you don't want to comment, midgardmusingstn@gmail.com is
1:01:58
the e-mail you can call into the hotline.
1:02:01
It's 615-671-9832. Share your thoughts that way if
1:02:07
you want or or hit me up on any of the socials that you are so
1:02:13
choose. I'm most responsive on on
1:02:16
Facebook or Instagram that emails probably the best way to
1:02:20
get in touch with me and I will get back to you as soon as I
1:02:22
can. So once again, I hope that this
1:02:25
episode was helpful for you. And if you liked it, give it a
1:02:29
thumbs up. Become a patron today.
1:02:31
If you're just listening to this, consider joining for a
1:02:35
dollar a month pledge. It's not a lot for you, but it's
1:02:38
everything and it's it's it's super helpful for for for me and
1:02:42
what we're doing over here. So thank you all so much for
1:02:46
your continued and ongoing support.
1:02:48
I greatly appreciate it, and until we talk to each other
1:02:51
again, may the gods continue to notice you and may your
1:02:55
ancestors smile upon you. We'll see you in the next one.