Latest / B Shifter / Standard Conditions, Standard Actions, Standard Outcomes

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Standard Conditions, Standard Actions, Standard Outcomes · B Shifter

• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the B Shifter Podcast.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: John Vance, Chris Stewart, and Steve Lester is with us today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Steve back in the studio.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're here teaching in Phoenix, Arizona at the AVBCTC with Steve, and we thought it'd be great to get him back on the podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: How have you been lately, sir?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Been good, been very good.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just uh this week will be my 30th anniversary with my organization.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yep, so you know, I'm I'm I've rounded third base, headed for home plate in my career, and looking forward to maybe another chapter here pretty soon.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So who knows?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: But great to be here, great to be teaching here in this facility.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Love this place, love the people.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, this is great here this time of year.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've never the last time I was here in Phoenix was it was 109.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think we're in the 70s today.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a big big a great much needed change.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be so hard to get back on that plane in Minneapolis on uh Friday because it is lovely here right now.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm with it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing, Chris?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to be back in Phoenix as well because I've spent the better part of three weeks in Michigan and Ohio during snow and a lot of wind and cold temperatures.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's now I'm very clear why I actually do live here.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Chris has been traveling for Blue Card and was in Benton Harbor, Michigan, on the shores of Lake Michigan, where like Gordon Lightfoot songs just emanate from the lake because of the weather and the gales and the frozen, and and it it is it is very, very cold.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure you're happy to be thawing out.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh today we are going to talk about something that we say a lot in our classes and and in our media, and it's been part of the blue card program forever.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: I and I know seen Chief Bernicini classes with it, and it's standard actions, standard condition, standard outcome.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or sorry, I should say that the other way, standard condition, standard actions, standard outcomes.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we want to break each one down and talk about it because it is worth breaking down.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think a lot of times we get a great explanation of what that means, or sometimes that gets lost.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to dig more into that today and really talk about what those standard incident conditions starting off with look like.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And when we say standard incident conditions, and I'll start with Chris on this one, what are we really talking about?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and why is it that some departments or individuals have struggles trying to define that?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think a lot of times with with many things in in in life and in incident command, right, is uh we take the words very literally and then we try and break them down into, all right, this is this is exactly what it means in a very, very narrow fashion.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if anybody knows anything about Alan Brunicini, he was the man of being able to take very very complicated uh things and complicated systems and processes and breaking them down into incredibly simple explanations.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's, you know, if you want to look at, you know, Albert Einstein's, you know, one of his favorite quotes is if you if you can't under or if you can't explain a complex problem simply, you truly don't understand the problem, right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a little bit what we're talking about here when we when we get into these kind of subjects.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what the, you know, what I was taught and what I understand about this idea of standard conditions, standard action, standard outcomes is we have to find the commonality and we have to be able to define the standard elements of what we typically respond to in our response areas.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that may look different for me in the city of Phoenix than it does for Steve and in the Atlanta area, and it does for JV in the Minneapolis area, right?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to be able to establish what are our standard conditions typically when we show up on the on the on the on the more common types of fires that we go to.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what are the typical standard conditions that we would experience at a as a residence or at an apartment building in any one of our given response areas or jurisdictions, and then be able to communicate and train our folks on these are the things you need to be looking for that are typically standard with regards to critical factors.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then then that helps us then be able to identify when we have things present that are not normal or not common or maybe are even uh more dangerous or problematic for us to be able to more readily recognize that and be able to say, oh, this is different now because of this.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have a clear idea in my head what the standard conditions are when I show up on a on a two-story apartment complex in my first do, and now I'm showing up and things are different.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I've got, I do a 360 and I've got, you know, three stories from the Charlie side.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I have a fire down below, which is much different than a lot of the other places that I tend to go to.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it gives you that when we when we know and understand the idea of standard conditions, it gives us the ability to start to train people, help people understand that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then it gives us the ability to recognize when things aren't normal, when things aren't as if they they usually are, and then we should should respond appropriately and make the the necessary changes, you know, when we talk about our action and and and our outcome.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a way of well, well, we're balancing a couple things here.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're balancing that out of, well, all fires are the same.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, they really aren't.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: We should be evaluating each one independently.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: We can find some commonality in them, and we can find some, you know, what we again, standard conditions that we may experience at these, but then we need to evaluate it for what it is in the moment to be able to figure out, okay, what what is important right now?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is critical, and what do I need to build my incident action plan around to either mitigate or avoid so something bad doesn't happen to us.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that idea of standard conditions as well as the actions and the outcomes really was meant to how do we start to train our folks on looking and sizing things up and measuring things that are more normal and and we're comfortable dealing with versus things that we show up and like, ooh, that's bad.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need to, we need to do something markedly different here to keep ourselves out of harm's way, to protect the community and maybe solve this problem.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's we're definitely talking about the art rather than the science of incident command and knowing understanding this when we talk about these things.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and unfortunately, a lot of times, you know, a lot of what we interpret as standard conditions comes with experience.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way to be able to understand some of those standard conditions is to go to fires and see it yourself and sometimes even have to make some critical mistakes from time to time where we have lessons learned.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: We just had a fire recently in my organization where a basement fire was missed.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: A walk around was completed and they stated the basement on the walk around, but they didn't force the rear door to ensure that the fire wasn't in the basement.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it was, and the second do company, when they went in to do a search, uh, found a hole in the floor, and we were able to determine at that point that the basement the fire was in the indeed in the basement.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, those things are are definitely learning points.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, nobody got hurt, and we had a nice critique and an after action review, and you know, we made something good out of it, but a lot of that just comes with experience, you know, and you have to go to fires in order to do that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that so Steve is bringing up a fantastic point and about that experience because we do, you know, in a general term lack experience, right?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the age of our the service.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not sure that that's a new problem, but we're definitely feeling it today.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And when we're able to define standard conditions and and use examples like Steve's talking about, then we're able to actually share some experience that they may not have gotten individually, but hey, we're we're gonna we're gonna try and package this experience so you can take at least a little bit away from it, even though you weren't there and you're and and and hopefully you make a a better decision or a different decision when when you're you know faced with that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: We we talk about how different people size that up, the conditions, you know, what famously worked with a guy that would arrive and just say, we've got a fire, you know, without any other explanation or size up.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: How does standard condition recognition and reporting those conditions reduce chaos and make us better on the scene?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what uh because the transverse of that is it does create chaos if we don't recognize it.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's spend some time with how does that reduce chaos and what can we do to uh better recognize those conditions, other than just experience.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, uh, JV, I think that starts with the first do and the initial radio report.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's why we we are so mindful of that uh through this blue card program and how we teach how we want to be as descriptive as possible in our initial radio report to try to paint the clearest picture for all those units that are coming in.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one thing we still struggle with in my organization is stating the strategy.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: That is for some reason still a stumbling block for us as we transition into the blue card system for now, our seventh year.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: We still struggle with that on a daily basis.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think that's something you know we have to concentrate on that initial ready report and make sure that we're hitting all those points to be as descriptive as possible.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just like we talk about the difference between smoke showing and working fire.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Smoke showing may not necessarily mean we're pulling a handline from our from our apparatus.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: We may go and investigate first, because if it's a pot of beans on the stove or or whatever that looks like, we may not need to deploy a hand line.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But when we say the term working fire, that means we are deploying hand lines from our apparatus and we're going interior for fire attack.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those just those words matter.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we say that often in these trainers and when we go teach cert labs and and all the things that we do here at B Shifter, words matter.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's very important that we paint that clear picture.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's huge, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you can in in a system where we're training new firefighters, hell, even old firefighters, doesn't really matter.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when we can define and demonstrate standard conditions and then define, demonstrate, and have them practice communicating using standard language that we all know and understand.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: That when we show up and we say we have nothing showing, smoke showing, working fire, defensive fire conditions, I know exactly what all those mean and what really the kind of the consequences or the actions that are going to be based on those, but that when the IC starts assigning people.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a huge part of actually having an effective training system and and helping people better, you know, process and then communicate that stuff.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because to your point, when when an initial radio report and a follow-up report is done in a pretty thorough manner, in a in a calm, confident type way, that tends to set the stage and permeate an incident throughout, right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And people will try and match that when they communicate on the radio.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, so the ability to create this environment based on some knowledge and then based on how we're going to communicate drastically impacts the overall system or it can just impact the overall system.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Conversely, if we show up and we're screaming and we're not making sense, that tends to ramp everybody else up and they start screaming and not making sense.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and and then we're not going off of any clear standard or process or you know, something that's very it's easily relatable for everybody.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I go back to strategy.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mention this a lot when I teach cert labs, you know, just a simple statement of the strategy.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if Timmy and Johnny are riding in the back of a ladder truck on the way to a fire, and they may be going non-emergency because the first dude's not there yet, whatever the response model looks like.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they're back there, you know, and they're shooting the bull, they're talking about, you know, the ball game they watched last night or how many yards they got to go cut in the morning when they get off duty or whatever.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then that initial radio report comes in and they hear offensive strategy, well, that immediately sets the stage for what they're gonna be doing when they get there.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna start putting on their SCBA if they have them still in their jump seats.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna start thinking about what tools they're gonna be bringing off the apparatus, what their assignment's gonna be, whether it's search or ventilation or whatever that looks like.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: The other side of that is if they if that initial radio port calls for a defensive strategy, well, now they take a whole different mindset, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's gonna be, hey, we're gonna slow down, pump the brakes, we're probably gonna spot the apparatus where we need it for defensive operations, we're gonna get the jacks down, we're gonna prepare for uh bucket operations or whatever that looks like.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So just that little term of strategy, offensive or defensive, can set the entire mindset of that first alarm that's coming in.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: What I can think of, uh, and it and it seems more in the past, I can't think of recent examples, but the failure to recognize that we've got defensive fire conditions and we end up with an offensive incident action plan.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's probably the biggest failure in realizing what the conditions are and being able to identify them, right?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Most definitely.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So so what can we do with that, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Us as training folks with our with our with our members, we need to be able to define for them, all right, when we show up on these occupancy types, whatever it is we're talking about, commercial or residential, and we have these conditions and and they appear to be that, you know, well involved in the space.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then we do a more thorough evaluation of a 360, and then maybe we confirm, yeah, we've got fire throughout this thing, or we have fire through the roof.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a standard condition for defensive fire conditions.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the system should respond and move that way to a defensive fire condition rather than having this mindset of well, always show up and be offensive.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: The vast majority of time you will, but we tend to stumble a little bit oftentimes when we show up with defensive fire conditions, which are like, oh, we we constantly perpetually train for being in the offensive strategy.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, we need to set this up and and and implement a defensive IAP from the very beginning.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that can help people start to understand and better recognize you know these conditions on the fire ground.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else on conditions before we get into actions?
• 15:23
  unknown: All right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think we I think we pretty well define that.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Beat that up.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Talking about standard actions, then the actions that we take that address the conditions that we observe.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why do standard actions really speed things up instead of slow things down and and give the company officers tools to deal with the problem?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I think that starts with uh we have to ensure that our actions are matching those conditions, right?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we go back to step one and we talk about the conditions like heavy fire upon arrival, you know, fire coming from two windows of residential structure.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know then you've got at least probably two rooms of involvement.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Might be a good idea to do a quick hit before you go in and apply some exterior water, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's studies after studies after studies that show that that is prudent.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a prudent tactic to do.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I those, you know, the big thing about the actions are it is that they have to match the conditions that you have.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we go back to the NIOS reporting and everything else that we see, you know, a lot of times you f you look, you read through these NIOS reports, and it's offensive tactics or offensive actions during defensive fire conditions.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the the way the idea of standard conditions was best explained to me throughout my career was the fact that when we show up, we don't tend to do very well when we're making up new operations, when we're making up new tactics because we either know, don't know or understand, or we haven't practiced, or we're not, you know, we're not sure what to do here.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so when we talk about standard actions, is all right, when we show up at a res on a residential occupancy with fire conditions like Steve described, is okay, what is standard for us?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Standard for us is evaluating this, the both the officer and the firefighters evaluating this incident and making decision, all right, is the is do I have the opportunity to flow water from the exterior to control this fire prior to me making the entry to the inside?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a standard expectation for us, right?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if we talk about standard actions based on the conditions, then that should become no, that's normal for us to do it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not worried about getting in trouble if I actually do that, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've talked about it, we've trained on it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I want you to do.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then, and then when you'd move to the inside, what are the standard expectations for us with regards to advancing hose lines and advanced and searching, right?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it done in combination with one another?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it done independently of one another?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's all dependent on the standard conditions and the resources that you actually have to execute that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And tying those, the resources, the number of people, the number of companies you have to what that standard action looks like.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because if your standard action is to deploy and initiate fire attack and search operations in the same exact way as, say, the FDNY does, except for you're in, you know, middle town USA with three people uh showing up on the first apparatus and two more dudes showing up on another truck in 10 minutes, you're you you're out of balance.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: You you are not doing, you're not gonna be able to execute that in any real way.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So your standard actions have to be built and based on the not only the conditions, but your response, resources, personnel, and capability of those people.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and make it very, very clear to everybody when we show up with three engine, a three-person engine, and nobody else is gonna be there for five or ten minutes, this is what is reasonable for us to get done.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's a that's why we have we do a resource determination at least uh three times on a working incident using the blue card system, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: We determine our resources on our initial walk around, our initial ray report.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Then once we get our 360 in and we take in more information, we do another resource determination.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then when the chief gets there and evaluates and does a command transfer, we do a third resource determination because we have to determine what's coming behind us and do we have the resources coming to do what we need to do.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: How how does standard actions protect us from having emotionally driven actions on the scene?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because it seems like if if it's uh if there are plays that we've practiced, it there's gonna be a lot of trust and security with that versus people doing their own thing, ergo freelancing, really, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I it the comfort and safety that I think it provides us is I know and understand what my capabilities are, and I know and and as a firefighter, I know and understand what you want me to do, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Based on what we have going on here, the conditions, and based on what kind of rig I'm showing up and what kind of how I'm equipped and how I'm staffed, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and then that is driven by the IC's plan, right?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: It gets communicated, we get assigned.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you show up, it's not just me looking at this, taking my best guess on what I think I should be doing right now, and and then just doing it without without a lack of communication, without a level of accountability, and without any any connection to an organized, well-communicated plan.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So as an IC, standard actions help me to be able to, when I say, okay, I want you to stretch a line to this location, knock that fire down and get an all-clear on the first floor of this house, that I have a good idea how that's gonna happen.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we're not gonna invent a new hose stretch doing it, and we're not going to if the conditions allow us to go in the front door to get to where we need to go, that's what we're gonna do.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to ignore the simple and obvious things that we can be able to do, and all of a sudden, all the firefighters are bailing in windows because hey man, that's what we that's what we did at our last hot training.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we we gotta pay attention to that a little bit and no one understand.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's time and place to go in windows.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not saying not, but but when it's straightforward, we should do straightforward things.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I and as as the chief of training from our organization, I'll get on my training soapbox here.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, firefighters don't know what they don't know, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's up, it's up to the battalion chief or whoever's over those firefighters at a at the larger level, outside the company level, to let them to let those firefighters know what the expectation is and what the standard actions are.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way to do that, well, there's two ways.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Number one is drilling.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta get the you got to get the crews down at the training academy or wherever your your organization trains, and you have to show them what the action is, what the expectation is from that level.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And also it it boils down to kitchen table conversations, you know.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's that battalion chief making his rounds to his stations and sitting down with those crews and says, hey, if we have this, this is what the expectation is and this is what you should do.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't that build a level of trust then between the crews and that IC or that BC, the response chief, whoever it is, they have a level of trust that those actions that are going to be carried out are the appropriate actions.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: The IC, when they they ask for it or they, you know, have that order, they know exactly the way it's going to work out rather than some either freelancing or new technique or something.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: That they've never even talked about.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And some people may say, well, Lester's getting into an SOP-based command system.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's not even close to being an SOP-based command system.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Setting expectations has nothing to do with that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: The incident commander is still going to give the order.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about the how, you know, the how to accomplish that order.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: The how the expectation that uh this is what you're expected to do when you receive this order or assignment.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: That that trust comes from clear communication expectations.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a great place to talk about like accountability model stuff, establishing the expectation, training to those expectations, monitor how they're doing in the real world and give them feedback.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then if something needs to be fixed, take some responsibility for it and go, all right, that didn't the the last couple of times that didn't go the way we wanted it to go.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get back down there and kind of re-establish our what it is that we want.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and then the trust also comes from when it appears like I should be doing whatever the standard evolution is here, and I as a company officer recognize something different that's going to cause us to do something different.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to communicate it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say, hey, I've got an issue here.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what we're doing.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's no surprises to anybody.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that that keeps the IC informed.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: The IC is not going, I don't understand why they're doing that and try and try and get in the way of it.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that's a that's a really is a two-way street.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I do like the idea of that trust, but it has to be built on the things that you guys talked about.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and to me, those have to be that can't be something for my organization, it can't be completely organizational at the organizational level.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you a good example of that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So years past before I took over the chief of training position, we used to have what we would call a spring drill and a fall drill.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the entire department would come down and do one particular drill, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was up to the training division to design that drill.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: When I became the training chief, I did away with that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Reason being is our particular our jurisdiction, our county is so diverse.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have on one side of our county, we have a 28-story high-rise building.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: On the other end of the county, we have 50 acre horse farms.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So those we need to be training on everything from standpipe operations to doing long distance split lays, relay pumping, things like that.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Being so geographically diverse, we cannot design a drill that fits our entire department.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, I handed that down to the battalion level.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so the battalion chiefs and their captains are expected to determine the strengths and weaknesses of their particular battalion and design drills that are going to improve their weaknesses and increase their strengths.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they come down to the training academy and we support them logistically, however, whatever their needs are.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: If that's live fire, we support them with 14 with N FPA 1403 standard.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: We do whatever we we can or whatever we have to do to make sure that they're training what they need to be training on.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that their training and their drilling is tailored for them in their geographic area and their response.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Part of that, too, is having that chief train with them.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk to a lot of departments that will tell us, hey, this would work for us, but our chiefs don't train with us.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking response level chiefs, battalion chiefs, district chiefs.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's a crucial part of this.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and when we say train with your crews, at least from my definition, I'm interested in what you guys have that defined in.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean getting on the end of the hose line.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: So often this is like showing people how great of a firefighter you were.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not scared to get dirty.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna go roll hoes and climb ladders, and that's all well and good, but that's purely recreational.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think as a chief, and I'm interested in your opinion on this, as a chief level officer, you go train in the role that you're going to do on the fire ground.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: So whether you're a division boss, you're an IC, you're a support officer, however that looks for your organization, play that role.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: So your folks get used to you being in that command position on the training ground.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that much easier on the actual fire ground.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it also exercises the entire system.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you know how those things are going to go in real life outside of a simulation lab.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: What do you guys think of that?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can give you an example of when I was a battalion chief, I would design a multi-company drill, battalion level drill.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And just like you said, JV, I would, I would, I would come in as that I see number two.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I expected the first due officer.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first around, let me back up a minute.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't give them the scenario, right?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because that to me, that takes away from the drill.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's not a drill if you if you know exactly what you're gonna do, right, when you get there.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically three, two, one, go, you know, and then you give them the scenario when they arrive on the scene, or they go by what conditions they see if you're using theatrical smokes with machines or if you're using live fire.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then that that first two officer would start out as IC one, just like we do here in the SimLab.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would serve in that IC2 role.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would come in, give them the unit rundown, expect the command transfer to go, and then I would pick up the incident, go on.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, when I do those battalion drills, we would do at least two scenarios.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the second scenario, I would step back and allow one of my captains to step into that IC2 role because they're the ones that are going to be riding up in my place when I'm when I'm not there.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to make sure that they get experience and exposure.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not only them, but I want the guys working under them to be exposed to working with them as IC2, right?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was very important.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I would step into the role first, and then for the second scenario, I would step back and allow those captains to ride up in my place.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, I think the frustration that we're hearing from, you know, from a decent amount of folks across the country is is that lack of participation by their boss demonstrates indifference and value to the system and what the work they're doing.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's a huge problem.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's a gigantic failure on those bosses and those leaders that are are that are that are not participating to the degree that like you and Steve are describing now.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the there's the physical training part of getting used to the operational, how things are going to go with the the chief officer playing their role in position, whether it's whether it's IC uh stuff or division boss stuff, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because that both they both need to be exercised.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but it's also oftentimes I feel and I've seen where the chiefs aren't engaged because the chiefs are probably the least informed person there, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: With with regards to how things should happen on the fire ground today, with regards to information about building construction or or modern fire behavior, or maybe our more recent tools and adaptation of our tools and how we actually do things, you know, search techniques, when to search, how to search, access points, and and when we should default to search and when we should when when we really need to deal with fire control beforehand.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that often is a lack of their comfort in doing that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they're going to elect, say, oh, you guys just go do what you think you need to do, or I'll I'll tell you if I like what you're doing.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's that that is a huge problem.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when something bad occurs on their fire ground, there isn't a single person in that organization that should be surprised because that clearly was set up due to the lack of participation, the connection that the bosses or what, you know, whatever level those bosses had.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and much like Steve, Steve's being super deliberate about no, I'm gonna be the IC here, and then I'm gonna move somebody up and I'm gonna, I'm gonna mentor and help and coach somebody in that position because that's that's a likely thing for them to have to do versus the guy that just showed up that I experienced in my career is no, no, we're gonna let the let the young guys move up here and do this because I've just done this so many times.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's also a big buzzword these days, is succession planning.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is what that is, is succession planning.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and succession planning gets used very positively and it gets very misused, you know, significantly for those who want to misuse it.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: So go train.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Go train with the crews, understand what their capabilities are, what they're working on.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean you have to be an expert at everything either.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you're the jack of all trades, you're really the master of none.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh during my career, I wasn't a big tech rescue guy, even though I spent a little bit of time on the tech rescue team.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't my forte.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: There were other things, you know.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not a ladder guy.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's uh I'm not I'm not good at that stuff.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm gonna lean heavily on the phone.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well sorry, ladder guys.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's uh segue over to standard outcomes.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's really where we we want to end up.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's that success, really.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're looking for success.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: So how how do we define success with our standard outcomes?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there the success or the outcome is predicated by the conditions that we showed up to and the effectiveness of our actions.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we show up to defensive fire conditions and we employ the right stuff on the outside, we shouldn't expect us to miraculously turn deadly defensive fire conditions into survivable offensive fire conditions.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't happen very just about never, I guess would be the best way to say that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, so our outcomes and our expectation for our outcomes have to be aligned with the the conditions on the front end, what we experienced, how effective we are at our actions.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then the officers need to have a reasonable expectation of what should be occurring based on those two things.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that may change a little bit, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then that that helps us number one define what success looks like.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, based on what we showed up today, this is what I would have expected.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially, you can ask the question, how'd we do, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did we did did did this end the way we wanted it to end, or didn't it?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if it didn't, why?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And was it something we did or something that was unforeseen we didn't necessarily weren't able to plan for?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and so we can make adjustments there.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that that standard outcome is yes, we want to win every time, we want to be able to get it effectively, get in all clear, locate victims, control the fire, do all of these things, but oftentimes the conditions and our effectiveness at the actions will dictate that.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then we as ICs need to know what's a reasonable outcome for us based on what we have going on right now.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I'll take all three elements of what we're talking about here: conditions, standard conditions, standard actions, and standard outcomes.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: I look at that as like an equation, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Think of it as a like an addition problem.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, conditions plus actions should equal outcomes.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Plug numbers into that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Two plus two equals four.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Two plus two doesn't equal three.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if I get there and I look and I'm thinking, okay, here's one problem, my conditions, here are the actions that are going on.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are these equaling my outcomes?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is two plus two equal equaling four or is it equaling three?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it's equaling three, then I need to make a change so that it equals four.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that makes sense.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: It does, yeah.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to me, you're the first guy to do math on here, by the way, boys.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you know.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: You heard last week.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: We were not a number of math last week.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm a number two.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, I like it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of the way, you know, that to me, that is strategic evaluation, uh specifically on the behalf of IC number two.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: IC number two pulls up, you know, three, four assignments have been made.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: He has to be able to look at that building, evaluate the conditions of the building, look at what actions are going on, visually not only visually, but via his tactical worksheet that hopefully he's been keeping up with on the way to the scene, if you're in that kind of system.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then looking, are we getting the outcome?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is the sum of the problem equaling those factors, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're not, then changes have to be made and they have to be made immediately so that they do.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's actually a great way because whether it's too much or too little on that on that equation or the the the the sum part is all right, you need to adjust and adjust it correctly.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought that's a good comparison.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: What's the danger of celebrating activity versus outcome?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean by that?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh wow, we got an interior fire attack on this, and they're high-fiving.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, we just trash the place because we opened doors we shouldn't have, or we uh you know ended up accessing or firing up the PPV too early and causing a fire spread.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about the difference because what we're looking for is positive outcome, not just activity.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that goes back to after action review.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back to hot wash, specifically hot wash.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of that is taken care of in the driveway uh of the of the residents after the fire, you know, being you know, that IC number two gathers everyone in the in the on the driveway and they take it from step one from hey, engine one, what did you do?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk through it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Engine two, what did you guys have going on?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Ladder one, what were you guys doing?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how how I thought the command transfer went.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you just walk through the steps of that and you talk it out and just say, next time, let's think differently and let's do it this way.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that there may not be a problem.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: It may be a high fiver.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody and hey, I I love those where I could just really, you know, gloat to my guys about how great of a job they did and and high five and and all go back to the house and have a nice supper, you know, but sometimes that's not always the case, and we have to hash that out.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I I I I used to tell my guys when when we would do these, hey, this none of this is personal, it's all constructive, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so don't bring your feelings and take it constructively and we'll move on.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll take I'll look at it from a different perspective is should we automatically assume we failed because we had to go defensive?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I I not necessarily, right?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the conditions, the situation is set up against us, period, from the get-go.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: And in spite of our best efforts, that's the way this thing was going to go.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the outcome?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: What it what could we actually save here?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Did we do a good job at saving the things that were actually sable and and not get ourselves jammed up in the process of actually doing that, right?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't look at that as a failure, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: In in a lot of cases.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we showed up and and we went defensive because we couldn't hit our ass with either hand, well, then that's a that's gonna be a different conversation, just like you said.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh please leave your feelings at the station.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And but we need to know and understand based on the conditions and how well we did, what's a reasonable outcome.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, it's not we're not gonna celebrate necessarily the outcome and the or the actions in the same way that we celebrate the outcome, but we should define what we did as a good job and what we need to improve.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I'll give you a great example of that.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the three of us sitting here at this table probably have a hundred years worth of fire service experience, all three of us combined.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Could you can you think of a wind-driven fire that was vented upon arrival that you didn't have to go defensive on?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you can pour all the hand lines in the world on that fire, and you can't control the wind, and you can't control the ventilation opening that was established before you got there.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes, no matter how good things go, sometimes we just lose a game, right?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Even the best ball team in the world is gonna lose a game eventually.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's just how it goes, you know.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I can't think of one.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a loser, right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be a pretty standard outcome for those conditions that we exactly in spite of how awesome we think we are.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: So how how do we measure positive success without getting lost in too many benchmarks?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because we we we talk to departments from all over, and you know, there's guys this week that they're they're adding in a bunch of different benchmarks that their agency wants.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that's how I see number two is measuring the outcome from the outside is all these benchmarks.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Can we get lost in too many benchmarks?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that's the question.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think we can, really.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because when it comes down to it, regardless of whatever else we want to put in and around it, we're looking at the true tactical objectives.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: How effective were we at getting an all-clear?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: How effective were we at fire control and how effective were we at loss control?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can put things in that maybe help us describe or communicate or or or or you know, give us intermediate steps to getting to those things.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: But in the end, they should the incident should be evaluated on our effectiveness at achieving those three things.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, it's got to be reasonable, like we were talking about.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: We got to be set up for success or the con the situation has to allow us to be successful, but we are the ones that have to actually show up and do it.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so evaluate that action as it relates to the true fundamental tactical objectives, not you know, these intermediate benchmarks that we may put in place, you know, trying to get there.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think the new NERS system that's uh gone into effect has has thrown an extra some of those extra benchmarks in there for knockdown, water, while run the fire, yeah, things like that.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would agree.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can you can benchmark something, an incident to death at some point.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: But how does connecting standard action, standard uh condition, standard action, standard outcome?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: I keep mixing that up, change the way that then that dovetails into our after action review, especially the system that we're using now.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, we definitely have standard process.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's the strength of this incident command system is standard process.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna begin the incident command system the same way every time.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna communicate the same in the same manner based on the conditions that we have there.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there we're we are working to the best possible outcome based on those conditions and our effectiveness or our capability or our resources, you know, what we can actually accomplish.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it, you know, if you take our after-action system, and and I'll even throw in our evaluation forms that we use for IC1, IC2 support officers and seniors advisors, is there is they're measuring a couple different things.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: The AAR system is really good at objectively looking at how did we do from a communication standpoint of effectively utilizing the system, when, how, and what we communicated.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then the evaluation sheets look at, all right, what kind of decisions did we make?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Did we actually understand what was going on, come up with a decent plan, get companies in place to be able to do that?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that relate to the outcome?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the two of those together create a really strong system for being able to measure and say that we did a good job.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and it also doesn't let us just become, you know, enamored with, man, this whole overall incident didn't go didn't go great, but I don't know, I'll pick something like, man, we cut we cut a whole hell of a hole in the roof.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then so the incident becomes about that hole, not about the not about the outcome or the tactical objectives.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that ain't that's not a good thing either.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you have to look at the overall incident, the overall outcome.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: You guys have anything else on this topic before we I I think it's good that we dove into it and really broke each one down because we talk about it a lot.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it it really merits that conversation.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I say all the time, you know, that I I think that that particular slide in the day one PowerPoint presentation is probably one of the most important slides in the entire program, you know.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there again, it's all about strategic evaluation for that IC number two, pulling up and looking at here's the conditions of the building that I see, here's the actions, the the assignments that have been made.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do are these matching up to produce the outcome that we're looking for?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, we've got to make immediate changes to that.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's pulling the trigger on a strategic shift immediately or making more assignments in order to correct the the actions and to overall to it to improve the outcome.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to say it's about the system.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: The system.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's about what?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: The system.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what our boss says.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's the system, guys.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you ready for a timeless tactical truth from Allen Bernardino?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right, here we go.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Timeless Tactical Truth from AVB, and this is available at the B Shifter store.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to get this book for 10 bucks, it's well worth it.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do not think you are communicating just because you are talking.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: There must be some information exchange sign that the message got through.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we ensure that the message got through in our with our communication model?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the order model, right?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: First thing we got to do is contact the senders, got to contact the receiver and get their attention.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: We push that a lot, you know.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Even even if a crew just went level one, you know, you got to get their attention and make sure they're ready to get for that assignment.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I was bad about it as a company officer.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as I went level one, first thing I want to do is jump out the truck and finish, finish turning out and grabbing my tools and telling my crew what my expectations were and things like that.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to you have to be ready for that assignment.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then you got to communicate properly, right?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: You got to give that, once you get their attention, then you have to give them the assignment and then expect that assignment to be repeated back so that you know that that that assignment has been received, right?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's closed loop communication.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when when we experience, and we probably all have experienced it and hell, and we may have even done it, you know, uh unconsciously.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're communicating as ICs on the fire ground based on how we feel, or based on, you know.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm gonna demonstrate how often.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: On my Amazon I see by how I'm gonna communicate, and I'm gonna communicate a lot, and I'm gonna tell people what to do, and I'm gonna I'm gonna micromanage and I'm gonna get in their business.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've seen that.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know, we all hated it too, right?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so we all know that typically it created division amongst the folks doing the work and it didn't do anything to make the incident better, right?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that idea of no, we have a system in process, we're gonna follow when we communicate, and I don't have to, I don't have to communicate all the time to uh ensure that we're doing the right thing.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I we're gonna train and provide expectations, and then I'm actually gonna have the opportunity to shut up when I should and allow those things to happen because then I'm gonna expect that information to come back to me to be able to start to answer the and and solve the objectives that we're looking for.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and if somebody needs help, then I can put plug help in to help them, you know, accomplish whatever is they need to do.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a that's one of those things where when we start to experience it outside of just the order model itself, is uh we got to get a mirror and say, okay, how are we actually communicating here?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we take a lot of flack with the blue card system about tying up radio traffic, too much radio traffic, too much talking.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I when we give assignments and we and we do our initial radio report, those things are lengthy, but they're lengthy for a reason, so that you only have to give that order one time.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: You only have to transmit that report one time, right?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know it's understood the first time.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in essence, uh it may seem longer, but it's really saving time in the long run.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because when the work starts getting done, the radio becomes silent.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you from a battalion chief perspective, when I was a battalion chief, that's at be in the beginning, that can be a very eerie feeling when that radio goes silent and you're when you're first experiencing the blue card system, and it's like, oh well now what do I do?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because the radio is quiet.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so you you try then to you wanna you want to fill the air, right?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: So then you start asking for canned reports and you know, and then eventually if you if you're critiquing yourself and you're listening to your incident audio, you're realizing, hey, I'm talking too much.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: I need to shut up and let and let my folks work, you know.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that that's the beauty of being a senior support officer as I have been in the past, is I'll look at an IC and say, embrace the silence.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because I could see they've got the microphone in their hand and they want to talk so bad, but what there's nothing bad going on.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: We we've got great conversion, the smoke velocity is changing.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: It looks like we've got success on the fire ground.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get on the radio just to get on the radio.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then back to you know, practicing our communication, our words mean something.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we do in Blue Card.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: So whether it's at the command training center or in the field, we're using the same process with command and the same words.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: So those words mean something.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a non-Blue card department uh gave an order and got an order of come on up and assist.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a wide open door to do whatever they wanted.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: You might as well just say freelance.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that created a lot of other radio traffic and confusion.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: So being prescriptive right away and being exact and precise and those words meaning something really lessens the communication overall, allowing the airtime to be open for priority traffic or God forbid a May Day.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's highly entertaining.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can listen to the people that are critical about it, and it's not hard to figure out where they work.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's not hard to go find incident audio for their departments and listen to the complete, utter nonsensical drivel that comes out of people's mouths on the fire ground.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it does not make the incident any better.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh I I find it entertaining.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that and it's those types of organizations, those types of incidents where Maydays are missed.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Fact.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's the truth.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, any final thoughts, guys?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Glad to be here, JV.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's good to see you.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you you we're gonna be in your place next week.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 17th and 18th.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: 17th and 18th, Cobb County Fire Training Center.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've got uh a Mayday workshop coming.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think we may have just a couple of seats left.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are we in that big fancy auditorium?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right on.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're uh we're looking forward to hosting you guys.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's gonna be a good time.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've actually got a trainer there as well coming up in June.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Any seats for that, or is that just a I think there might be a couple of seats open left in that one as well.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can go to uh b shifter.com, click on blue card, and then go to our events to check all those out and get the dates and sign up for them.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there's still availability if you're listening to this podcast.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: And let's see, it's you know, before the 17th and 18th of February, you have an opportunity to go to that May Day workshop if you're around Cobb County, Georgia.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I'm gonna be uh next month, I'll be down in O'Cala, Florida, helping uh Shane Ray do the big box workshop down there.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've still got a few seats open in that one as well.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if you're interested in the big box, that's one of the few opportunities this year to listen to Shane Ray give his speech on the big box.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And man, that guy is something.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and people, the last uh big box class we did, we did one in Minnesota in November, and there were guys I was talking to going to the class.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: They said, when I saw on the syllabus, we're spending a whole day talking about fire protection systems.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going, boy, you know, this is gonna and Shane does not make it boring.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you right now, it is totally relatable to firefighters, company officers, chief level officers.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to be a fire prevention person to get into this.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually made me geek out.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to talk, I had a neighboring fire chief who who could look at a sprinkler head and tell me exactly how many GPMs came out of it from eight feet away.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's I can't, I don't know that.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't tell that.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not what we're talking about here.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's talking about basic operations of these systems, the difference between residential, commercial, uh, areas that are industrial, ESFR heads, all of that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: It is such a knowledge base that we need to have in the fire service because we make so many mistakes when we don't know how those fire protection systems work.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have anything to plug?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like we're on the hot wing show right now.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, no, I'm I'm very good.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna remain warm in Phoenix, at least.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, yeah, you can't make me go anywhere now.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guys, thanks for being here.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you spending some time with us on the B Shifter Podcast.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks to everyone for listening today.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: Remember to subscribe and tell your friends.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: And until next week, we'll talk to you later.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.