Latest / Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries / Episode 37. Thomas McCarthy (Grand Master 2009-2010)

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Episode 37. Thomas McCarthy (Grand Master 2009-2010) · Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries

• 0:20
  Hello, everyone.
• 0:21
  Welcome back to Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries.
• 0:24
  My name is Reed Endersby.
• 0:25
  I'm the director of membership engagement for the Grand Lodge of Minnesota.
• 0:29
  Happy to have my colleague, John Schweitz, joining us again this week.
• 0:33
  Greetings.
• 0:33
  Good morning.
• 0:34
  How are we?
• 0:35
  What are we?
• 0:36
  Afternoon.
• 0:37
  It's will be a memorable, warm summer recording as we look back on this someday.
• 0:44
  Rain and heat and it's summer's flying by.
• 0:48
  Here we go.
• 0:49
  Glad to have you back with us again this week john We are honored today to be joined by most worshipful brother tom mccarthy He's been a member of the masonic fraternity for over 47 years served as grandmaster of the grand lodge of minnesota in 2009 He's a 33rd degree scottish right mason a york right mason and a shriner Before retiring in 2014 tom served as a district court judge for 26 years Chambers located in Gaylord, Sibley County.
• 1:20
  Prior to being appointed judge, Tom served as Sibley County attorney for nine years.
• 1:25
  Tom was named one of the 10 Outstanding Young Minnesotans by the Minnesota Jaycees in 1984.
• 1:31
  Also received the Community Outreach Award from the Minnesota District Judge Association in 1998.
• 1:39
  Tom has been married to Patty for over 54 years.
• 1:42
  Congrats on that.
• 1:43
  They are proud parents of three children.
• 1:46
  And prouder grandparents of seven grandchildren already.
• 1:49
  Tom, welcome.
• 1:50
  Thank you.
• 1:50
  It's nice to be here Welcome.
• 1:52
  I first want to start with you were one of the top 10 young citizens of minnesota Are you now a top 10 not so young citizen of Minnesota?
• 2:02
  Well, at least I'm not young.
• 2:03
  Yeah.
• 2:05
  Um, I always like to find out a little bit about your Masonic history.
• 2:09
  What was it originally that compelled you to become a Mason?
• 2:12
  And, uh, tell us a little bit about your, history in that, uh, in that regard.
• 2:17
  I went away to law school in 1971 to Notre Dame university law school.
• 2:21
  Very nice.
• 2:22
  And, uh, one of my, Good friends and mentors at the time was an attorney from Winthrop, Everett Young.
• 2:29
  And, uh, he invited me to consider coming out to practice law in Winthrop with him, which I ultimately did.
• 2:34
  And we were having, uh, having dinner one night, and he said, You know, Tom, there's an organization I think you'd be really interested in, and I know you'd enjoy it.
• 2:42
  And it was the Masons.
• 2:43
  Everett was a past master of Sibley Lodge, number 209 in Winthrop.
• 2:48
  Uh, he was my top line signer, and, uh, The rest, as they say, is history.
• 2:52
  Very nice.
• 2:52
  Where did you do your undergraduate?
• 2:54
  Uh, it was the College of St.
• 2:56
  Thomas.
• 2:57
  I just like hearing people say that they went to St.
• 2:59
  Thomas.
• 3:00
  It's always a highlight.
• 3:01
  I'm always the odd man out here.
• 3:02
  Yeah, well, you're, you know, it is what it is., you were Grand Master in 2009.
• 3:07
  I was.
• 3:07
  And who was it that appointed you to the Grand Lodge line?
• 3:10
  Most recently, Brother Neil Neddemeyer.
• 3:11
  Oh, Neil, okay.
• 3:13
  And you appointed Bob Darling, okay, very nice.
• 3:18
  I'm gonna throw a curveball.
• 3:19
  Uh oh.
• 3:20
  What is an early childhood memory that we can relive with you?
• 3:25
  Good memories of growing up.
• 3:29
  What comes to mind?
• 3:30
  Jumping off the school bus, uh, when I was in high school.
• 3:33
  Uh, at the end of the day, in October, running up the, uh, the, uh, driveway to the farmhouse, throwing off my school clothes, throwing on my hunting clothes, grabbing the shotgun and having my dog Sandy, and we had a route that would go about a mile, uh, about an hour, took us an hour to get around it.
• 3:48
  We'd always flush up two, three pheasants.
• 3:50
  That was a great, great time.
• 3:51
  So did you grow up in Winthrop?
• 3:53
  I grew up in Green Isle.
• 3:54
  In Green Isle, okay.
• 3:55
  thanks for sharing that We have had many conversations over the years about civil discourse, and for what it's worth to our listeners, we've had this scheduled to chat about this topic long before the events of this past weekend.
• 4:11
  For several weeks.
• 4:12
  Several weeks.
• 4:12
  It's been on the calendar, and a question we've, we've talked about together and in small groups, and even large groups, is how will we.
• 4:24
  As both Freemasons and citizens in general return to a place where we can agree to disagree with mutual respect.
• 4:33
  And knowing that this world of social media that we live in, social media, I heard it said, being the laboratory for the things on earth that make you miserable.
• 4:45
  It's, uh, we're surrounded by conflict entrepreneurs that, you know, There's a lot of people that are really just looking to ingrain in society of just shout louder and abandon all civility and respect and what will inspire a return to sanity.
• 5:05
  The obsession to cling to power to demonize one's opponent.
• 5:11
  I mean, this is kind of what we have right now instead of a vision for a better world across the board.
• 5:18
  Well, before I get into that, uh, you referred to the events of the recent past, and maybe there's some people here that are listening to this weeks and months after we've recorded it, and that of course, what you're referring to is the attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump.
• 5:32
  Um, I think it's important to know that as Americans, we've been here before.
• 5:40
  Uh, you, history tells us that there's often, uh, And perhaps more often than not, been these really serious divisions in our, in our country, um, that we have somehow managed to survive.
• 5:52
  Now the difference now, of course, is we have social media.
• 5:56
  And instead of, uh, putting, putting a broadsheet and posting it on the town square like in Benjamin Franklin's days, uh, you, you know, put an email or a tweet and hit send and it's out, uh, out to the universe.
• 6:09
  So, it's a really troubling question.
• 6:12
  Um, and I think each of us needs to make our own mind up, uh, that we are going to consider statements especially by people we disagree with.
• 6:22
  With respect, with kindness, with understanding, tolerance perhaps, uh, not that we necessarily have to agree with it, but we can do that respectfully.
• 6:33
  And I think respect is something that's really missing in our society today.
• 6:37
  It's something I think that Freemasons We don't have a corner on the market, but we have more of that respect, respectful conversation and discourse among our fraternity than the general public at large.
• 6:50
  You mentioned, we've been here before in light of all of the events that occurred.
• 6:55
  A quote from Ayn Rand from November 22nd of 1963 on that infamous occasion came up.
• 7:02
  She said, quote, this is America.
• 7:04
  This is not the way we do away with presidents.
• 7:07
  We vote.
• 7:08
  We do not kill people, unquote.
• 7:11
  Timely and thought provoking on a number of levels.
• 7:15
  The last couple of days I've been consuming as much information as I can.
• 7:21
  And I don't watch one particular network because the, the differences that you're going to get between MSNBC and Fox News, you almost think that you're living on two different planets.
• 7:32
  But one of the things that I heard from, uh, a guy by the name of Van Jones, who is on CNN, who is a, pretty strong, left leaning Democrat, but a very thoughtful one.
• 7:43
  And he made the comment that, you know, we have, we can have our political differences, but we're not enemies.
• 7:49
  And I think that that's such an important distinction that, just because we see things differently doesn't mean that we have to be enemies with each other.
• 7:57
  Um, there's another guy that's on, uh, Uh, Fox, from time to time, his name is Harold Ford Jr.
• 8:03
  And Harold Ford Jr.
• 8:05
  is a Democrat, but he's one of the more thoughtful thinkers and I just wish that there were more people that could engage in that thoughtful respectful conversation as Opposed to what I forgive me the nuts on both sides You know I think are the the source for many of the problems that exist and that's one of the things that I personally love about Masonry is the fact that you know, not only do we really not talk politics Masonic Lodge we understandably have our, our struggles along the way as we're all imperfect and want to sound off maybe when we shouldn't.
• 8:43
  Can I go back, Tom, to your, time, your profession, 26 years as a judge, that's an extraordinary amount of time serving as a district court judge.
• 8:51
  tell me how you dealt with those, I mean, every day was a disagreement, I would imagine.
• 8:57
  Yeah.
• 8:57
  Yeah.
• 8:57
  Yeah.
• 8:58
  If they weren't disagreeing, they weren't, they weren't in front of me.
• 8:59
  They weren't there in front of you, exactly.
• 9:01
  I would imagine that there were people that you saw that were representing, uh, plaintiffs and defendants.
• 9:07
  And some of them had to have been much better at the civil discourse than others.
• 9:12
  Is there, when you think back, were there attorneys that, uh, that you experienced that?
• 9:17
  that had a particular way of, of conducting themselves with some grace.
• 9:23
  Well, it's all a matter of respect.
• 9:25
  I mean the, the attorneys can disagree, and often did disagree, with, uh, well at least half of them did, with the decisions that I made, but they would often, they would always respect the decisions I would make.
• 9:37
  And, I tried to foster that a little bit by uh, writing a more or less detailed memorandum attached to my decision saying, explaining why I did so they could.
• 9:46
  I want you to evaluate my thought process and determine whether or not it was anywhere in the ballpark or if they needed to appeal it to a higher court to reconsider what I decided.
• 9:59
  You know, being a judge, you listen to some people that have, it's usually the worst day of their lives when they come into court.
• 10:06
  And, um, and even though from the time, you know, I can think of a couple of people sitting here now that, uh, were.
• 10:16
  Totally bonkers in their, in their legal theory.
• 10:19
  Especially in conciliation court.
• 10:21
  You know, small claims court where lawyers aren't, basically aren't allowed.
• 10:24
  And they are, really some of the toughest jobs that a judge has to do.
• 10:28
  Sure.
• 10:28
  Because you got people there who've been wronged.
• 10:31
  And, they don't understand the law, they don't understand what evidence is, they don't understand the burden of proof.
• 10:36
  It's all emotion.
• 10:37
  It's all emotion, and you just have to hear them out.
• 10:42
  And, uh, and respectfully and patiently listen to them.
• 10:46
  And then usually I would take the matter under advisement and issue an order with that memorandum that explained why I decided the way I did.
• 10:53
  Now, never having seen you practice, uh, as a judge, just knowing you as a person, I would imagine that you spent a lot of time, uh, serving as a peacemaker as much as a judge.
• 11:06
  I try to, yes.
• 11:07
  You always, you always treat, you always try and, and resolve the case.
• 11:10
  Uh, you know, and the best, the best settlement is both sides go away thinking I didn't do as well as I could have.
• 11:16
  And did that happen often?
• 11:17
  Often, yes.
• 11:17
  Okay.
• 11:19
  You mentioned conciliation court.
• 11:20
  Did you ever serve as a mediator Not as a formal mediator.
• 11:24
  I never did that, but I, of course, especially in family court situations, judges are always informal mediators, and there are really, really well respected, well trained people that do mediation full time, but, you know, in those kind of things, cases in family court, a terrible divorce situation, there are obviously the tensions and the emotions are on so high, so you just try and bring it down to, to a level that People can talk rationally.
• 11:53
  I want to ask you a side, side question.
• 11:55
  As you went to law school and as a young lawyer, is becoming a judge something that is a goal for a lot of lawyers?
• 12:02
  How, how does, how does that, the timeline of that to when you were appointed?
• 12:06
  It's not a goal of a lot of lawyers.
• 12:09
  Um, But it was something I had in the back of my mind even as I was applying to law school.
• 12:14
  It was something that I thought that I would like to do at some point.
• 12:17
  And when I got to the Notre Dame Law School, they asked some statistics and it was really amazing to me that a lot of, a large percentage of Notre Dame law graduates ended up on the bench.
• 12:29
  But I found it, you know, for me it was fulfilling on a personal as well as professional level because I had a chance, I thought, to do something to help people.
• 12:38
  Uh, during, during my professional career, um, and again, you know, we're all, we're all human.
• 12:43
  We all make mistakes.
• 12:45
  Uh, that's why there are a Court of Appeals and Supreme Courts.
• 12:47
  Uh, but I tried my best, uh, to concentrate on the case before me and do the best job I could with the information and the law that I had before me.
• 12:55
  So, uh, yeah, it's just a nice way to, a nice way for me to serve my fellow man.
• 13:02
  It just occurred to me, you're a Notre Dame grad, I know you to be a pretty ardent Minnesota Golden Gopher football fan.
• 13:08
  How does your allegiance split on that these days?
• 13:11
  They don't play very often against each other.
• 13:13
  Okay.
• 13:14
  So you follow both?
• 13:15
  I do, yeah.
• 13:16
  What are your thoughts on Lou Holtz?
• 13:19
  Uh, let's talk about something else, shall we?
• 13:23
  Just curious.
• 13:24
  Just curious.
• 13:25
  knowing you and the way that you, conducted yourself through your time in the Grand Lodge line, you are a very thoughtful, uh, somewhat soft spoken person and I'm wondering if that demeanor was something that helped you as a judge.
• 13:41
  I, I would think that, in the spirit of, discussing civil discourse, I think that the way that the judge presents himself.
• 13:49
  And the demeanor that they have must have a huge impact on the temperature of every, uh, legal situation.
• 13:55
  Oh, it certainly does.
• 13:56
  I mean, a judge can be combative and, you know, you, you have to rule on motions during, during a trial, for instance.
• 14:03
  And some of'em can get kind of, kind of heated.
• 14:05
  Uh, but if you, if you re respect the, the attorney making the motion, and even if you have to overrule him, you know, just do it in a way that shows respect.
• 14:14
  And especially if there's a jury there, because a judge's obligation is to not to let the juror know what the judge is feeling about the case.
• 14:22
  And most of the time, I agree with the verdicts that the jurors came back with, but there are a couple of cases where I simply didn't agree with them, but I have to respect their position because I could understand why they reached that decision, it's just a different one than I would have made.
• 14:37
  So do you watch, fiction and non fiction court dramas?
• 14:40
  We've been seeing a lot of them lately.
• 14:43
  Do you ever, like, watch a judge and, and think they're not handling this one right?
• 14:50
  Or they're not, uh, you know, conducting themselves the way that a, a judge ought to conduct themselves?
• 14:56
  I don't watch those kind of, uh, judges very long.
• 14:59
  Okay.
• 14:59
  Because I can't stand to listen to I would imagine.
• 15:02
  Make the, uh, make fundamental errors in the way the judicial system works.
• 15:06
  So what's more frustrating to you?
• 15:07
  Is it the Is it the fundamental errors as it relates to the, uh, application of the law, or is it the way that the judge's, uh, demeanor is?
• 15:16
  The way that they present themselves in court?
• 15:20
  Flip a coin.
• 15:21
  Oh, yeah, I would imagine.
• 15:22
  They're both equally disturbing to me.
• 15:24
  I would bet.
• 15:25
  Did you have the assistance of clerks and stuff when you're serving as a judge?
• 15:29
  I did.
• 15:29
  Are any of those clerks, practicing law in some significant way that you're proud of?
• 15:34
  Actually, there's, uh, two of my former law clerks are now district court judges.
• 15:38
  Oh, really?
• 15:38
  Yep.
• 15:39
  Well, to John's point, your demeanor and, and how you conduct yourself, the old phrase that the, the hotter the topic, the cooler the tone.
• 15:49
  Comes to mind and, uh, and having sat through jury duty two years ago, you get that dreaded letter in the mail.
• 15:55
  I never had before had a blast by the way, but the judge was, uh, let's just say, didn't instill a sense of, uh, this is a, a, a proud civic duty moment.
• 16:05
  It was a little, Oh, it was almost nerve wracking.
• 16:08
  Oh boy.
• 16:09
  And the question was asked recently, what has happened to idealism?
• 16:16
  Is that just become, um, Um, corny in this world is the pursuit of what's required as far as dreaming or thinking big or making progress in certain things.
• 16:28
  It could be what, anything, food security, poverty, mental health, homelessness, literacy.
• 16:35
  But in thinking of idealism or the pursuit of the timeless core values, the tenets of our profession as Freemasons, knowing we'll never reach perfection.
• 16:46
  As I'm going to quote the famous football coach who said that perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence.
• 16:53
  Well, isn't that what this is all about?
• 16:55
  Life beyond even our, our Masonic obligations, or even you have grandkids and you have kids and grandkids.
• 17:03
  Has the digital generation abandoned such things that if a person can't press the button and get what they want right now, then their interest is waning at best.
• 17:14
  Well, I think that's always been the case.
• 17:15
  We, I mean, we as a society, and I can't speak for other societies, because I never lived in one, but we, we often, uh, look for instant gratification, or immediate gratification, uh, and, you know, the old, uh, experiment with the little kids with marshmallows.
• 17:32
  You know, if you, I'm going to put a marshmallow on the table, I've got to run an errand.
• 17:35
  If you wait until I come back, you can eat two marshmallows.
• 17:38
  You can eat it now if you want, but if you wait until I come back, you're going to get two marshmallows.
• 17:42
  And some of the kids eat the marshmallow right away and some of them, you know, do all sorts of songs and dances to avoid eating the marshmallow and get to when they come back.
• 17:50
  But follow up studies have shown those that have, have resisted the urge and delayed their gratification end up being, you know, better people.
• 17:58
  Now we, as a society, and maybe it's always been this way and it's just, it's just, I feel it more pronounced now.
• 18:04
  Um, it's me first.
• 18:07
  Uh, and there's little, um, dedication to expanding, uh, to serving your community, serving your church, serving your, your country, uh, than there was, uh, especially in our, my father's generation, the greatest generation.
• 18:23
  Uh, you know, you're talking about, when I walked in here, about the author of Bowling Alone.
• 18:27
  I mean, he, he wrote a whole book and made a whole career out of, uh, explaining in a scholarly way why, uh, my generation, the greatest, uh, the baby boomers and the generations that follow.
• 18:39
  Uh, haven't followed in our father's footsteps, uh, to have that kind of sense of community belonging to a bowling team, serving on the city council, uh, and, and, you know, honestly, talk about civil discourse, why anybody would, you know, I just admire those people that serve on school boards right now, because they take a brunt of abuse that is absolutely uncalled for, and certainly un Masonic.
• 19:04
  It's just, uh, to me, hit the nail on the head, uh, I've just read an article in the New York Times, uh, from the, an interview with the guy that wrote, uh, Bowling Alone, and he talks about the difference between, um, he refers to it as bonding social capital and bridging social capital.
• 19:23
  And bonding social capital is when you join a group of like minded, very similar people.
• 19:29
  Bridging social capital, on the other hand, is where you connect with people that aren't necessarily of the same religious background, the same generation, you know, same age.
• 19:39
  And that's what I think that, that masonry is a really unique combination of both.
• 19:45
  And I don't think that there's many organizations that can, that can claim that.
• 19:50
  Because One of my favorite things about masonry is just the, uh, the intergenerational exchange I'm spending the day tomorrow with most worshipful brother, Don Severson, and I spent a lot of time with Chuck Dietz and, and, uh, Roger letting, and these are, are, are brothers that are in their mid nineties.
• 20:08
  And just the fun that I have visiting with them and hearing them tell their stories, but at the same time, they're very, they have the same kind of, uh, Moral compass that I do.
• 20:20
  And I can't think of another organization that really checks both of those boxes.
• 20:24
  So, in a nutshell, join Freemasonry, people.
• 20:29
  I really do think that it's the anecdote to a lot of what ills society.
• 20:33
  I was going to ask you, if you could, I was going to say wave your magic wand, but let's, uh, let's use your grandmaster gavel.
• 20:40
  And, uh, Uh, insist upon a certain type of, uh, campaigning this fall between both the, uh, the, the, the right and the left.
• 20:50
  What would you like to see happen that hasn't happened in some time?
• 20:54
  Well, actually talking about the issues instead of talking about the personalities, nobody talks about the issues anymore, you know, uh, no, they just call each other stupid and, but the media is the same way.
• 21:06
  I mean, the media, all they talk about is, you know, Donald Trump's, uh, latest, uh, Uh, false claim or, or Joe Biden's gaffes and, and, you know, senility some people would claim.
• 21:18
  Uh, nobody's talking about the issues.
• 21:19
  Nobody's talking about project 2025 or project, or the goals that the Democrats have in the upcoming terms.
• 21:27
  Yeah.
• 21:27
  I would love to see some of these politicians take a pledge that.
• 21:32
  I'm not going to talk about what's wrong with my opponent, I'm going to talk about what's right about me.
• 21:39
  Because if you watch the ads that are going to be coming out, and they'll be coming out in droves, I think it's pretty easy to sell ad space in the fall.
• 21:48
  I would just love to see People pledged to to focus on what they can bring to the table as opposed to what the what their opponent has ruined for everybody.
• 21:59
  Unfortunately, for all of us, attack ads are very effective.
• 22:03
  Oh yeah, and I don't see any any.
• 22:06
  thing in the near future that's going to change, change that.
• 22:08
  Well, we are, find ourselves in this world filled with propaganda eating, emotionally hijacked people.
• 22:18
  There's so little interest in coexisting with anything other than oneself.
• 22:24
  And they're in ardent views, and we frequently talk about how, how do we navigate that obstacle?
• 22:30
  On the, on the positive side of things, the young men that I talked to that are interested in Freemasonry, that are interested in putting the electronic device down and reconnecting with people.
• 22:44
  I firmly believe that the boomerang effect will happen, is happening.
• 22:49
  Maybe not quite to the level of the greatest generation of joiners in that, that level of civic involvement or commitment, but there's a, a real desire to put away the, the divisive gaslighting, blowtorch interactions and have a place of neutrality of what we offer in this fraternity of being non sectarian, apolitical, and can actually be.
• 23:15
  Get along with someone that has a different background, a different opinion, agree to disagree, and still be cordial, of which we just seem to have let that slip out of our grasp in the last handful of years.
• 23:30
  Nah, it's always been there.
• 23:31
  Yeah.
• 23:31
  It's always been there.
• 23:32
  It's just more pronounced to me now.
• 23:33
  It's just more pronounced, and like I said, you know, like we talked about earlier, just a click of a button and it's out to the world, and that wasn't the case.
• 23:41
  You know, even 20 years ago.
• 23:43
  Let's switch gears for a second.
• 23:45
  Going back on your, uh, your Masonic history.
• 23:48
  who would you say would be on your Mount Rushmore of Masonic influences?
• 23:53
  The people that looking back, you've tried to emulate the way that they've conducted themselves as a, as a Mason and as a man.
• 24:01
  signer, Everett Young, past master of Sibley Lodge.
• 24:05
  Um, he was, he's just a role model in so many ways.
• 24:09
  Uh, that, uh, I, I feel proud that, uh, he asked me, or said that this might be something I'd be interested in.
• 24:15
  How old was Everett when he asked you to, to join?
• 24:18
  Everett was probably as old as I am now.
• 24:20
  Okay.
• 24:21
  It was probably in his mid seventies.
• 24:22
  Oh, really?
• 24:23
  Yeah.
• 24:23
  You're in your mid seventies?
• 24:24
  Holy cow.
• 24:26
  Well preserved.
• 24:27
  Thank you.
• 24:27
  Uh, second one is, uh, Orville Saxton, uh, another, uh, past master of Sibley Lodge.
• 24:34
  He was my mentor and my, uh, uh, you know, safer guide.
• 24:38
  Uh, as I was joining and, uh, I used to get so angry at Orville because he would, uh, he would say, well, Tom, you want to do this?
• 24:44
  Or, I've always signed you up to do this.
• 24:46
  And I got, I would kind of get miffed with him, but he was always right.
• 24:51
  And, uh, he, he made me a better Mason than I otherwise would have been.
• 24:55
  Curiously, what did Orville do professionally?
• 24:57
  Orville was a farmer.
• 24:58
  Okay.
• 24:58
  Yep.
• 24:59
  Yep.
• 25:00
  Those farmers have a lot of time to contemplate when they're, doing their, their work.
• 25:04
  Sitting on the tractor cultivating the corn, going through your ritual.
• 25:07
  Forgot about that convenience, yeah.
• 25:10
  Any others that come to mind?
• 25:11
  Uh, well again, another one, Bob Parker from, uh, another past master.
• 25:15
  He's the brother that raised me to the sublime degree of a master mason.
• 25:19
  Okay.
• 25:19
  Uh, and Bob inspired me to do a couple of, uh, parts in the ritual, the middle chamber lecture and King Solomon.
• 25:26
  Uh, he did them well and I've been trying ever since then to, uh, to match, uh, his.
• 25:32
  and, uh, and theatrical presentation of those, uh, those degrees.
• 25:36
  Are there any that are, uh, currently members of the craft that you're particularly impressed with?
• 25:43
  John Cook, Jr.
• 25:45
  Love John Cook.
• 25:45
  Best, uh, deputy grandmaster in the history of the craft, in my opinion.
• 25:49
  John is the chairman of the Masonic Charities Board.
• 25:53
  He certainly is.
• 25:54
  And one of the things, I just talked to John and I said, we gotta get you on the podcast.
• 25:58
  One of the things that I love about John more than anything is he takes the whispering wise counsel, he's great at it.
• 26:05
  And he does it in a way that makes you understand what's How important this is to think about, but he does it in a way that doesn't make you feel bad about what you may have have done or the way that you've done it.
• 26:16
  That's a gift.
• 26:17
  It really is.
• 26:18
  And he's just such a thoughtful, thoughtful man.
• 26:21
  So he was your deputy.
• 26:22
  He was.
• 26:23
  Okay.
• 26:24
  How about that?
• 26:24
  How about any memories you have of travel, whether it was during your year as grand master or in the grand line, any Masonic journeys overseas?
• 26:35
  Anything of, uh, of, uh, Real, uh, highlight reel type of event that you've been to.
• 26:41
  Well, of course, as Grand Master, you travel quite a lot.
• 26:44
  Uh, in the year I was Grand Master, the conference of Grand Masters met in Washington, D.
• 26:49
  C.
• 26:50
  And it was some anniversary of the George Washington National Masonic Memorial.
• 26:54
  And, uh, one of the things we got to do is, uh, have our picture taken with the gavel that George Washington used to lay the cornerstone of the United States Capitol.
• 27:03
  And, uh, for my picture, I snuck in John Cook.
• 27:06
  So we have a picture, both of us.
• 27:07
  Oh, cool.
• 27:08
  With the gavel, yeah.
• 27:08
  That's great.
• 27:09
  It's really cool.
• 27:10
  Um, tell us about your family.
• 27:13
  You know, uh, one of the things that I've always admired about you is, is you have a joy speaking about your kids and your grandkids, and I've gotten to know one of your grandchildren, Noah, because he himself has become a philanthropist of sorts with, uh, Donating money to Minnesota Masonic Charities, and you'll find him on our Pillar Society list.
• 27:35
  But, you've got some kids that have had some, uh, some, some nice success in life.
• 27:40
  Yeah, all of my kids have had nice success in life.
• 27:42
  They, uh, have two daughters and a son.
• 27:44
  Uh, two, the two older ones are daughters.
• 27:47
  Uh, Noah is the oldest son of my middle daughter.
• 27:50
  Okay.
• 27:50
  Uh, he's now married.
• 27:52
  He is?
• 27:52
  Yep.
• 27:53
  Oh, wow.
• 27:53
  And his little brother just got married last month, so we got two of, uh, two of my seven grandkids Are, are, uh, are married off.
• 28:00
  Married.
• 28:00
  Yep.
• 28:01
  And, uh, uh, is Noah still playing music?
• 28:04
  Not very often.
• 28:04
  His little brother is Okay.
• 28:06
  Yeah, his little brother's playing a lot.
• 28:07
  We just saw him last weekend at, uh, he plays a lot of, uh.
• 28:10
  Uh, Pubs and Coffee Shops in Hastings, East Metro area.
• 28:15
  Yeah, I saw, uh, I think, what's Noah's brother's name?
• 28:19
  Blake.
• 28:19
  Blake Sack Music.
• 28:20
  I saw Blake at a place called No Neck Tony's in Lake Elmo.
• 28:26
  And just the talent is, uh, is very real.
• 28:28
  It's very fun.
• 28:29
  He is.
• 28:30
  Yeah, he's a good kid.
• 28:31
  Seven grandkids.
• 28:32
  I know you, you are at a sporting event, almost.
• 28:38
  Couple nights a week every weekend.
• 28:39
  You've got quite a schedule.
• 28:40
  You're still maintaining.
• 28:42
  Yeah, my young my my son has a couple of children.
• 28:46
  His oldest is playing 15 under baseball.
• 28:49
  His daughter is playing 13 under basketball and his youngest son is is I'm going to be the world famous engineer someday.
• 28:57
  He's just, uh, robotics and, and computer stuff.
• 29:00
  He's just a whiz.
• 29:01
  So it's, it's just fun to be with him.
• 29:03
  And where did you meet your wife, Patty?
• 29:04
  Patty and I were high school sweethearts.
• 29:06
  Really?
• 29:06
  Yup.
• 29:06
  I was in the high school band.
• 29:08
  And we had this deal in, in the summertime where we would perform on Main Street in Arlington for, you know, 7 o'clock to 7.
• 29:16
  30.
• 29:17
  Just play a few songs.
• 29:17
  Is that where the Lodge building is now?
• 29:19
  It is where the Lodge building is now.
• 29:20
  Just down the street from where we played.
• 29:22
  Okay.
• 29:22
  And I played the sousaphone.
• 29:24
  So I had to carry my sousaphone, the sousaphone stand, and the music stand up to play.
• 29:30
  And after, uh, after the concert was over and we were getting ready, I was having trouble carrying all those three things.
• 29:37
  So this really beautiful young woman comes up and says, Can I help you?
• 29:41
  And, yes.
• 29:42
  I took her home that night.
• 29:43
  She lived out in the country.
• 29:44
  Got lost on the way home, ended up in New Auburn instead of Arlington and Oh, Jesus.
• 29:49
  But it was fate.
• 29:50
  It was meant to be.
• 29:51
  How about that?
• 29:51
  Yeah.
• 29:52
  What is a sousaphone?
• 29:53
  It's a tuba.
• 29:54
  Oh, it's a tuba.
• 29:55
  You hold in your hand in front of you.
• 29:57
  Okay.
• 29:57
  Sousaphone wraps around you that you can, you can Oh.
• 30:00
  March with it.
• 30:01
  So, so the, the, that real huge looking thing.
• 30:04
  Yeah.
• 30:04
  Okay.
• 30:04
  Our brother John Phillips Souza.
• 30:07
  The Mason and Shriner.
• 30:08
  Oh, there you go.
• 30:08
  That's where that comes from.
• 30:10
  Stars and Stripes Forever, man.
• 30:12
  That must have been a fun one.
• 30:14
  Were you in the band?
• 30:15
  I was.
• 30:15
  Really?
• 30:16
  What did you play?
• 30:16
  I played saxophone for a few years.
• 30:18
  Well, of course you did.
• 30:18
  And I was a piano player.
• 30:19
  Oh, really?
• 30:20
  Yeah.
• 30:21
  I have no musical talent, but I'm still a good person.
• 30:24
  Let me tell you a story about a band that shocks people when I tell them this.
• 30:27
  Okay.
• 30:28
  Okay, this is like 1965 or 1966.
• 30:31
  Uh, the University of Minnesota would invite high school bands to come down.
• 30:36
  for one of their early games in the football season and perform at halftime with the Golden Gopher Marching Band.
• 30:42
  So we went down one year and it was the old Memorial Stadium.
• 30:45
  We were in the in the open end of the bleachers.
• 30:49
  But this particular day it was it was kind of raining so we couldn't rehearse outside.
• 30:52
  We all went into Williams Arena.
• 30:54
  We went through our rehearsal.
• 30:55
  And when we got done the director, Dr.
• 30:58
  Frank Ben Cresciuto, said now I hope each and every one of you will consider coming to the University of Minnesota and joining the University of Minnesota Marching Gophers.
• 31:06
  And his band members said, No, they all can't.
• 31:08
  They're not all eligible.
• 31:11
  They're in the basketball court looking up at us.
• 31:13
  How do they know that there are people in the stands that aren't eligible?
• 31:17
  Any idea?
• 31:18
  There were girls in the high school marching band.
• 31:19
  Oh, okay.
• 31:20
  Oh, boy.
• 31:21
  I knew it had to be something like that.
• 31:24
  Yep.
• 31:24
  I got another story to tell, though.
• 31:26
  My, uh, my, my grandson, the 15 year old grandson, uh, was playing basketball, and he had this great wavy head of hair, you know?
• 31:33
  It's just, just terrific.
• 31:35
  And one day he comes home, and he tells his mom, uh, I want a buzz cut.
• 31:40
  Shave it off.
• 31:41
  And his mom says, why do you want to do that, Mason?
• 31:44
  And he said, well, I got a friend, there's a kid at school, he got a buzz cut, and kids were making fun of him all over the place.
• 31:49
  Oh boy.
• 31:50
  So I said, I'm going to get my hair cut that short so they can make fun of me instead of him.
• 31:53
  Oh wow.
• 31:54
  Yeah.
• 31:55
  He wins.
• 31:56
  He does.
• 31:56
  Let's put him on Mount Rushmore.
• 31:59
  That's fantastic.
• 32:01
  Yeah, I think that that kind of compassion, it's probably not a coincidence that grandson's parents probably, would do the same thing just like his grandparents would Kind of.
• 32:14
  So What's your take on how a, say an existing brother Mason can be the change in the world, can resist the temptation of social media or of sounding off in a way that might be inflammatory to someone else?
• 32:30
  There's, we're all guilty of it.
• 32:32
  but no one's perfect on that, but.
• 32:35
  Especially in times like these that we really do have the playbook for a more harmonious society if we put those words into action and not just don't just treat the words like platitudes are part of the process and if you could again use your grandmaster gavel or one whatever you whatever instrument of choice how how do we touch the hearts of of men of our members or of even a future member.
• 33:04
  Well, first of all, I caution our brothers to be very cautious when they go on social media themselves.
• 33:12
  Hear, hear.
• 33:13
  Because not, you know, a lot of them are, they have the right of freedom of speech, of course, we all do that, but as Masons, we give up some of our rights in order to cooperate.
• 33:23
  We agree that when we're in Lodge, we're not going to discuss religion, we're not going to discuss politics.
• 33:28
  We choose to focus on what unites us instead of what may separate us.
• 33:32
  Um, but I have to be honest with you, I have unfriended, um, many, uh, Masonic brothers on Facebook, for instance, because I want to still be friends with them in Lodge.
• 33:43
  And I, and I find it difficult to be friends with them in Lodge when I read the stuff that they're posting on Facebook.
• 33:48
  Boy, that is so spot on.
• 33:50
  And, and, and especially if somehow they're identified as, as Masons.
• 33:56
  Uh, that's, that's just, I think, unforgivable.
• 34:01
  I've been in some conversations with brothers that are quarreling over social media.
• 34:07
  And the encouragement of just don't post it.
• 34:12
  Don't like most worshipful brother, Ethan Seberg did a great presentation about social media that when you post something political or otherwise, you stand the chance to alienate just about 50 percent of your friends.
• 34:23
  Or so why do that?
• 34:25
  And, and so the question was thrown back at me.
• 34:27
  Well, what about my first amendment rights?
• 34:29
  Listen, I am not here to say that you can or can't do something, or to try to curb your First Amendment right.
• 34:36
  The question I asked back was, why would you want to?
• 34:39
  If you really believe what we stand for as Freemasons, and are a Mason in your heart, that I would really hope would extinguish the desire to alienate that 50%.
• 34:51
  Well, and here's the distinction that I always like to make.
• 34:54
  You, they're specifically called friends on Facebook.
• 35:00
  And to do as you described, Tom, to unfriend someone just feels tough to me.
• 35:08
  I think that, I always think that Facebook should be reserved for triumphs and trips and trophies and all that stuff.
• 35:17
  If you want to start fights, go to Twitter.
• 35:20
  Because, to me, it's a lot easier to unfollow someone than it is to unfriend them.
• 35:24
  For whatever reason, I just, I look at Facebook and when I, one of the things that I did for quite a while and I just gave up doing it, is if somebody posted something that was, that was, you know, far left or far right, just like looking for a fight, I put the little policeman emoji.
• 35:42
  And that's all I would do, is I would put the policeman emoji, and it would just tick them off.
• 35:47
  Because they knew exactly what I was saying, they would run into me at the grocery store or something, and they're like, what's with you and your, your policeman emoji?
• 35:53
  I'm like, hey, I'm just, uh, you know, trying to remind you that, uh, somebody needs to police the way you're treating yourself and others.
• 36:05
  Now I'm not going to look at that emoji the same ever again.
• 36:07
  Good, good.
• 36:08
  That was my intention.
• 36:10
  You mentioned earlier the loneliness factor, and we've talked about it at length in our civility project that we do, and looking at the statistics out there, in March of this year the Wall Street Journal released a study that said one in four men under 35 surveyed said they have zero close friends, not just one or two, I've used this stat multiple times now, but it's very alarming.
• 36:36
  Zero friends.
• 36:38
  we just can't overlook the loneliness or, or the, and I know I mentioned idealism earlier.
• 36:43
  The, that random act of kindness out in the world right now is far more impactful to a stranger, to a friend, a family member than we could possibly conceive right now.
• 36:56
  Agreed.
• 36:57
  Agreed.
• 36:58
  Because we are, we are in our own castle.
• 37:00
  And, you know, and of course the, uh, uh, The computer, the gaming, and the social media contributes to the isolation, uh, but we've also, I think, to a large extent, lost that sense of service to the broader good.
• 37:17
  Uh, we're not, we're not bowling on bowling teams.
• 37:20
  We're not participating in church.
• 37:22
  We're not belonging to the Masons or the Lions or the Rotary or the Kiwanis.
• 37:26
  Uh, we're just stuck in our own house watching all the family or whatever we're watching All in the family, you know, we're in the I've dated myself by the way.
• 37:35
  Okay, I was going to say, my God, Tom.
• 37:39
  Nick at nights or something.
• 37:41
  Yeah, come on.
• 37:42
  Um, well, I have, this is my last question.
• 37:45
  Um, you've been a supporter of Masonic Charities for many years.
• 37:50
  What is it about Masonic Charities that you personally are most pleased with?
• 37:55
  Well, with our relationship to the University of Minnesota and the really outstanding work that we have supported with those, uh, wonderful people at the university.
• 38:03
  Uh, in the fight against cancer, and, uh, in the fight against childhood diseases, including childhood cancer, now at the Developing Brain Institute.
• 38:11
  Um, there are just, there are just so many, uh, so many things that, uh, that we've done that are, that we can be extraordinarily proud of.
• 38:18
  And you also wear a lion's hat as it relates to the, you know, tell us about the work that you do with the lions.
• 38:22
  Well, I'm, uh, tomorrow will be my last, uh, meeting of the, uh, on the board of the, uh, Minnesota Lions Childhood Cancer Foundation.
• 38:29
  I've served since its inception as the treasurer.
• 38:33
  It's a real new thing, but we've, uh, you know, last year we raised and donated 170, 000 to the University of Minnesota for their Childhood Cancer Survivor Program.
• 38:42
  Awesome.
• 38:43
  Um, and over the years, I think it's, I think we're over a half a million dollars in, in five years.
• 38:47
  So it's, it's something I'm real proud of.
• 38:50
  I hope you realize how much you are looked up to as a man, a Mason, a past Grand Master, that as we navigate our way as our organization in the years to come, that we appreciate and need more of the selflessness, the counsel that you provide.
• 39:10
  You had mentioned John Cook earlier and.
• 39:13
  I would say that, uh, Tom, you share that same gift and I'm not going into the story now, but my own lodge many years ago ran into, shall we say, some issues, situations, situations.
• 39:26
  And Tom was a grandmaster at the time and gave the council in a way that was more is more encouraging.
• 39:35
  It was, uh, thank you.
• 39:36
  I, I look back on that.
• 39:38
  I was a younger man at the time too, and it was a motivator and, uh, that I just, I'm so grateful for the people I know like you that are a listener and you're well thought, thought out.
• 39:50
  And like we said earlier, when the topic is a little hotter, the cooler the tone really does make a huge difference.
• 39:56
  Well, and I want to also add that one of the questions whenever I'm meeting, and it's not just on the podcast, but when I'm meeting a new Mason after I know him for a little bit, I will always ask them the question, you know, who are on your Mount Rushmore of influential Masons?
• 40:10
  And I promise you, Tom.
• 40:12
  You have been mentioned probably more times than just about anybody and I mean that sincerely And I think part of it has to do you know with the professional success that you had and people just naturally see you as a person that balances things in a very nice way i'm, especially grateful that you drove in from, the Lake Country to come and, uh, sit with us for a little bit.
• 40:34
  Dassel.
• 40:35
  Dassel.
• 40:36
  You're very kind.
• 40:37
  Thank you.
• 40:38
  Most Worshipful Brother Tom McCarthy, thanks for being with us today.
• 40:42
  We look forward to chatting again soon.
• 40:44
  My pleasure.
• 40:44
  All right.
• 40:45
  Off we go.