Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / The Mystery Of D.B. Cooper With Darren Schaefer | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #150 |

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The Mystery Of D.B. Cooper With Darren Schaefer | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #150 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian way.
• 0:03
  Podcast, today's guest is a podcaster all the way from
• 0:07
  Denver Colorado and the United States of course it's not just
• 0:10
  any podcast the he is actually covering the case of the famous
• 0:14
  case of d.b. Cooper.
• 0:16
  And his name is Darren Schaefer. Welcome to The Showdown I did.
• 0:20
  Thanks for having me on Christian, I appreciate it.
• 0:22
  No the pleasure is mine as always and yeah you know I mean
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  there were different ways. I looked at like how I could
• 0:29
  approach this This because I always do a considerable amount
• 0:33
  of research before I have any guests on my show and I normally
• 0:36
  focus on them, just them specifically.
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  And when I looked into what you're doing it's you know it's
• 0:44
  not just not the first time I've seen the kind of like a even the
• 0:47
  first time I've had someone in the show who's commit to one
• 0:50
  specific thing as far as like doing a podcast of doing a show
• 0:53
  is concerned. But I mean, there are so many
• 0:58
  Different Avenues you can go with this and I think it's a
• 1:00
  great idea to be honest that you even set up this this podcast.
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  But I purposefully made a point of not looking into this case.
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  Like I know it in, I know roughly what it is but I kind of
• 1:12
  just wanted to get your words and you know, your mindset
• 1:16
  behind this and everything and focus more on that and, you
• 1:18
  know, see where we go with regards to this.
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  So, let's start at the very beginning, like, how did you
• 1:23
  first come across the story of d.b.
• 1:25
  Cooper and why did it stand out? To you.
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  I first came across that I was probably 10 years old watching a
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  re-run of Unsolved Mysteries with Robert Stack with my sister
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  and they covered the d.b. Cooper episode.
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  And we were living just outside Portland Oregon at the time.
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  And so when that story came on it's like, oh yeah and he walked
• 1:49
  to the Portland International Airport and I was like hey
• 1:52
  that's where we live and it was just cool to see this story and
• 1:56
  it's like, oh yeah, he jumped out somewhere over the woods in
• 2:00
  aerial Amboy. It's like I've been there.
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  I know where that is and so it was just this cool local story
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  and as I got older, my wife and I moved Woodland Washington.
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  Where it's the closest town outside the drop zone.
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  So where he jumped would be these tiny little communities.
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  They have a name but I wouldn't really call them a town.
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  And so Woodlands, the closest to that.
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  There was this little crazy Dive Bar out in the middle of the
• 2:32
  woods called the aerial store. It's been since shut down since
• 2:36
  the owner and her son passed away, but it was Just like a
• 2:41
  time capsule, you go there. And like how does this meet, any
• 2:44
  sort of modern food and health safety regulations?
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  But it was a cool place and they would have a DB Cooper Days,
• 2:53
  Every Thanksgiving weekend, and the place would be absolutely
• 2:58
  packed. Cars.
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  Parked on the street and then you'd have to walk through the
• 3:03
  woods at night to get there. Just a crazy wild time.
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  Is this cause I was looking at your profile?
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  Line is this the d.b. Cooper convention thing that
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  you've got pictures of you being a is that what that is?
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  Was that something you know, that actually predates that
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  there's been a couple of different d.b.
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  Cooper conventions? The first one was the Symposium
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  in 2011 that Jeffrey gray sort of put together.
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  Then you had one in 2014. I believe that was just sort of
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  the smaller conference he get together and then Eric ulis
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  created Cooper con. And 2018 was the first year for
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  that 2019. I spoke at Cooper con Kony
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  twenty was canceled for obvious reasons, and 2021, I hosted the
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  event. Oh wow, congratulations.
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  There you go. That's Progression there for
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  you? Yeah, it is.
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  Yeah, I just want to quickly explore that like and I have
• 4:11
  some rough ideas and obvious ideas of how it might transfer
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  but like in your own words like what are the Cooper conventions
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  like and that? What do you guys actually get up
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  to that break down? Like what a Cooper convention is
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  like, the Cooper convention is mostly.
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  It's just an opportunity for all of us amateur Cooper, sleuths to
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  sort of get together in person. And for me, the conference is
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  all about the social events after the conference, where I
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  just sit around and drink beers and Bs about d.b.
• 4:43
  Cooper with some of the other people.
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  But the conference itself will be a number of guest speakers
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  who will talk about their theories on the flight path or
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  the Tina bar money. Or let me tell you about this
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  suspect in my he's good and why this suspect is bad?
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  Yeah. And I mean that's kind of what I
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  figured it would be but it's it's really cool that just in
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  general, any kind of like fandom for anything you get a group of
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  people together and you're like really passionate about this one
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  thing. And like for example, I can
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  relate in the sense that I went to for the very first time at a
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  professional wrestling. Like, watch along here in the
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  UK, never been to one and it was like, I just a standard bolt
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  sports bar, which I'm not really into sports.
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  So I don't really identify, don't go to, to be honest.
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  Yeah, yeah, other than football here, I don't really, really
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  watch much, but went there are ridiculous time, because
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  obviously, American pay-per-views here in the UK are
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  at like 1:00 a.m. and that was cool as hell, you know, just a
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  group of people like-minded people who, like, you don't have
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  to explain anything to people. You don't have to be like, oh, I
• 5:53
  like this thing because of this. It's like, no, everyone's just
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  there. They know what they like, what
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  they like, so you can just get straight into it and that makes
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  it easier as opposed to connect with people as Like, even just
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  making friendships, you can be like, you know, youyou,
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  obviously, talk about the thing that you shared interests that
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  you have, but then you end up just talking about other things
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  and making friends and yeah, just oh yeah.
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  And some of its, you know, Bill Rollins who lives on the West
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  Coast or I'm sorry who lives on the east coast in Boston.
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  I've talked to him online many times, I've talked to him on the
• 6:24
  phone and then just getting to sit across from the table with
• 6:27
  him and Bs was just really great awesome sauce That's a while,
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  can't believe I said that on the podcast.
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  That's a weird little saying that I say in my room real life,
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  but they go okay, slipped out, awesome sauce.
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  One of the things I wanted to ask you before hand was, are you
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  did you that sort of purposefully move to these
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  specific places that happen to be related to the case or is
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  that just a coincidence or just total coincidence?
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  So you went, you didn't just sort of say to your wife, like,
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  oh, we should move here and she's like, why here?
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  Like just nice in the summer and you would move there because it
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  was cheap and I was poor back then.
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  So fair enough, that's why would move there.
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  I believe you, I really do. So those listening and winking
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  it down right now. Okay, let's let's just go
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  because again I don't want to kind of, I thought I own it.
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  I thought about this idea of just sitting in exploring the
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  case. It's like on here.
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  I really do think about that but to be fair that's what your show
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  is. And to be honest, with me,
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  better to just go and listen to Darren sure if you want to hear
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  that. But I do kind of want to explore
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  a few things. So I spent the best place to
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  start would be in your own words.
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  Supposing a cliff notes version, like what can you tell us about
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  the mysterious case of d.b. Cooper?
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  Like let's pretend I never heard anything about this case before.
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  What's the case of d.b. Cooper?
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  The case of d.b. Cooper is November 24 1971.
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  The day before Thanksgiving a guy identifying himself as Dan
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  Cooper walks up to the gate agent Portland International
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  Airport. He buys a one-way ticket to
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  Seattle, the only ID you needed at that point.
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  In time was the gate agent said, what is your name?
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  And the guy says my name is Cooper Dan Cooper.
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  Just like that? At and so the gate agent rights
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  on the ticket Dan Cooper. He's one of the last to board
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  the plane. He sits in the back of the plane
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  shortly before takeoff. He hands.
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  Stewardess and note. She hilariously assumes.
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  It's just another businessman hitting on her so she just
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  throws the note in her purse. He sorted notices this and he's
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  like, ma'am, you better have a look at that note, I have a
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  bomb, he's hijacking the plane, he wants two hundred thousand
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  dollars and four parachutes ready for him.
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  Before they land in Seattle. He requests to front shoots and
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  two back shoots back. Shoot would be your main
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  parachute and front. Shoot would be your reserve.
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  They Northwest Orient Airlines agrees to his demands.
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  They spend some time in the air, they land on the ground.
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  He gets his two hundred thousand dollars and is for parachutes.
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  He lets the passengers off the plane.
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  It's important to know the passengers.
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  Did not know the plane was being hijacked until they got off the
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  plane on the ground in Seattle. So, he was able to keep that
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  quiet between the stewardesses and the pilots and the pilots,
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  just relayed, all the information.
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  Now on the ground, he has a new destination for them.
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  He wants to go to Mexico City, but more important than where he
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  wants to go. He tells them how to fly the
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  plane. There, he wants the plane to be
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  flown, no, higher than 10,000 feet, the cabin will remain
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  depressurized landing gear down, Flaps set to 15 degrees and he
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  wants the plane to take off with the after staircase down.
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  Now when the pilots heard this, they weren't even sure if the
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  plane could fly with the after stairs, down nevertheless, take
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  off. So they call in to air traffic
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  control. Air traffic control says, we
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  have no idea, they call Boeing and Boeing Says, Yes, actually
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  that plane can fly with the after stairs, down, we've tested
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  it. And so the pilots tell Cooper,
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  Alright, we still won't take off with the app stairs down.
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  We don't believe it's safe because the Planes full of fuel.
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  Cooper tells them, he disagrees with their assessment, but he
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  will lower the stairs. In Flight, under the conditions
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  he asked for, they don't have enough fuel to make it to Mexico
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  City. They talk about a couple
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  different refueling stops agree to refuel in Nevada.
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  The plane takes off approximately 750 the plane
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  lands in Nevada. Close to 10:00 p.m. and Cooper
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  is not on board somewhere between Seattle and Reno Nevada.
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  He jumped out of the plane with the money and the bomb never to
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  be seen or heard from again, one of the most interesting things
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  about Cooper and my opinion is that he only exists for five
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  hours. He only really exists from 250
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  until 850 around when he disappears.
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  Definitely told me wise 100% Amanda said being randomly gets
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  like, I mean, where does that guy get all of his money?
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  No baby. No seriousness, firstly.
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  Thank you very much for detail. And that that, that was solid
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  for anyone listening. I mean, come on, give the man a
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  round of applause exceptional, like I obviously, I expected you
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  to know till I know very well, but like you, you've clearly
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  told this many times and, you know, thought given this a great
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  deal of thought and You know that there's so many questions
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  that spring to mind for me. But I think the biggest thing
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  that this brings to mind For Me Above All Else Is obviously the
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  expertise of this particular person and their knowledge and
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  stuff. It kind of reminds me a bit of
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  when I was studying Jack the Ripper at school and you get
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  into the nitty-gritty of it and you'd be like how can this
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  person have this level of knowledge?
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  This puts them up this particular level of society and
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  that was even more. More interesting back then in
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  the 1800's because it's like, well, this is someone in the
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  elite kind of tier of society. If you want to put it that way
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  because you know, the level of experience experience, they
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  would need expertise and money, everything in between.
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  And it's the same with with this situation, you know.
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  It's very telling that you know, this person has detailed
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  knowledge of this plane that the only other people that would
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  have this knowledge is the actual plane company and it's
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  like This, this is either a person who has worked in that
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  industry heavily in some description or has just been
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  able to study a lot and understand this that.
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  But whatever the case maybe it's a person that has all of this
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  knowledge and then I mean I don't know I It's kind of its
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  kind of he neither here nor there, but it's just interesting
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  from the perspective of the classic whodunit, or, you know,
• 13:35
  mindset of like, you know, who is this mysterious person that
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  would have this knowledge. And, you know, I mean, I know
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  there's many, many different possible suspects and different
• 13:46
  ways you can go with it. But everything kind of makes
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  sense to me when it's laid out that way, as far as like, who
• 13:53
  does potential person could be in their intentions and
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  everything. Like when you were laying that,
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  Out. One of the things that made
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  total sense to me is you know yeah Keepers few people knowing
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  about what's going on as possible so that you can divert
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  from panic and keep control of the situation, it makes perfect
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  sense. But to have someone of that
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  intellect that knows how to control essentially like a you
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  have to have a good pretty good command of like psychology and
• 14:21
  understanding how to control people who were afraid and So
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  many questions. Oh, yeah.
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  And he's famously. Calm.
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  Cool. And collected.
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  The entire time, when the stewardesses are interviewed
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  about him, immediately after the skyjacking, I'm going to
• 14:39
  paraphrase this, but they said he was never unkind, he was
• 14:44
  always polite. He got frustrated when we were
• 14:47
  on the ground at one point but he was never cruel to me.
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  And another interesting thing is, they that flight crew, they
• 14:55
  were done for the day when they landed in Seattle.
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  So they ended up having to work extra long getting to Reno and
• 15:03
  Cooper knew this and requested meals for the flight crew.
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  So as part of his demands on the ground in Seattle, they bring
• 15:12
  meals aboard the plane for the crew in case they're hungry and
• 15:16
  then hilariously when the plane ran lands in Reno he's not
• 15:20
  Board, the police immediately searched the plane with dogs,
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  the dogs end up eating the food that they had brought on board
• 15:28
  for the flight crew. I feel bad for the plane stuff,
• 15:33
  man, I hope they left. They got bleep, you know?
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  I mean, because it's a different times or use in happened in the
• 15:40
  70s. Was it is that right or 1971
• 15:43
  1971. So you just know that what if
• 15:48
  that would happen today like put it into perspective?
• 15:50
  If that would happen today, there would be counseling for
• 15:52
  those people. That would be taking care of you
• 15:54
  know in every shape of a back then I reckon it was probably
• 15:58
  just like a quick conversation. And maybe, maybe they might have
• 16:03
  even been bought a drink afterwards and then back to
• 16:05
  work, the next day, I almost went to put money on the fact
• 16:09
  that, that was probably how it translated out, but you never
• 16:11
  know, you never know. Oh yeah, I believe I believe the
• 16:15
  pilot did go back to work the next day.
• 16:17
  The stewardess. Probably, you know, hey, we're
• 16:20
  generous company. We're going to give you two days
• 16:22
  off. We'll send it back here on
• 16:24
  Monday. Yeah, I know right.
• 16:28
  Different time a different time. but um, I mean based on
• 16:34
  everything that you've kind of explored, like, as far as the
• 16:39
  possibilities for who it could be, in your personal opinion,
• 16:42
  who do you think is the most likely suspect and why I have no
• 16:47
  idea? Hmm.
• 16:48
  I've truly don't know. Like, when I started this, I
• 16:51
  would have told you, yeah, I've read two books about this case,
• 16:55
  and I believe it's can Christensen.
• 16:57
  And, you know, now, now I'm six years deep or whatever.
• 17:01
  And it's like, I have no. Idea.
• 17:03
  There are suspects I like more than others.
• 17:06
  There are a lot of suspects in this case, because there are two
• 17:10
  different police sketches. You have the main one, which we
• 17:13
  refer to, as the Bing Crosby sketch that came out shortly
• 17:17
  after the hijacking. He's got a skinnier face.
• 17:20
  This picture is usually in black and white and then you have the
• 17:24
  sketch done a little over a year later, which we refer to, as the
• 17:27
  Bing Crosby sketch where his foreheads a little bit wider.
• 17:32
  And that one's usually in color both sketches.
• 17:35
  You can see him with and without sunglasses on which I like as
• 17:38
  well. But it's a very generic
• 17:41
  description. It's a middle-aged guy, mid to
• 17:45
  late 40s with swarthy or olive skin.
• 17:50
  He has the same haircut. Every other middle-aged man had
• 17:54
  in 1971. He wore a suit and tie just like
• 17:58
  everyone else did on an airplane back in 1971.
• 18:02
  There's a good chance he had military experience.
• 18:05
  Well if you're a middle-aged man from America and 1971, there's a
• 18:09
  good chance you had military experience.
• 18:11
  We just forgot up WWII and Korea and Vietnam is still sort of
• 18:16
  going on. So there were what would be a
• 18:19
  lot of men that had military experience?
• 18:22
  So you can fit a bunch of different people into this is
• 18:27
  the reason why there's so many Suspects But to answer your
• 18:31
  question, the the few that I really like right now are
• 18:36
  Wolfgang Gossett, And Ted Braden.
• 18:41
  I think both of them are are really interesting.
• 18:44
  You have some other suspects like James Clans, Nick or
• 18:53
  Williams William J Smith that are good suspects.
• 18:57
  Also but it's kind of like well what's the motive for them to do
• 19:02
  this with Wolfgang and Ted brain?
• 19:04
  It's like, okay, well I could sort of see the motive for these
• 19:07
  guys but one thing I wanted to do with the show when I first
• 19:12
  started and I believe I've been able to pull this off is Every
• 19:18
  one of these suspects has just an absolute crazy.
• 19:22
  Interesting story, Richard McCoy.
• 19:25
  You know, I don't believe he's Cooper but his story is
• 19:28
  absolutely incredible. Barbara Dayton.
• 19:32
  She is a d.b. Cooper suspect, the first woman
• 19:35
  to get gender reassignment surgery in Washington state.
• 19:40
  He was born Robert Dayton, and then transitioned in 1969.
• 19:45
  She's sort of unhappy with her life.
• 19:48
  It's not going the way she wanted.
• 19:49
  So she wants to prove she still looks like hard-ass badass dude.
• 19:55
  So she dresses back up like a man.
• 19:58
  Does the hijacking basically throws the money away because it
• 20:01
  was never about the money and continues to live her life.
• 20:06
  So, I wanted to sort of cover all of these Suspects on the
• 20:10
  show. And in sort of their best
• 20:13
  evidence so the listener gets to decide OK.
• 20:17
  Which suspect is good and which suspect is not good.
• 20:21
  It's up for you to decide not me.
• 20:24
  Let's talk a little bit more about that, so your show is
• 20:27
  actually called the Cooper Vortex.
• 20:30
  And as you say, you're exploring basically everything connected
• 20:35
  with the case, yet so specific suspect episodes, I don't doubt
• 20:40
  in the very early beginnings. You sort of just explored the
• 20:44
  sequence of events, and then you obviously look at witness
• 20:47
  accounts, etc, etc, etc. But why dedicate a podcast
• 20:54
  entirely to d.b. Cooper.
• 20:55
  Like what's what's your kind of end goal with this?
• 20:58
  What you're trying to achieve with this?
• 21:00
  That's very question. So it started out My wife bought
• 21:06
  me this book, Skyjack by Jeffrey gray.
• 21:09
  And I always always sort of just kind of interested in Cooper.
• 21:12
  I thought it was a cool story, it was very local to us.
• 21:16
  Interesting, not something. I was obsessed with and then I
• 21:19
  get this book sky jack. And I'm reading it and I'm just
• 21:24
  like, this is such a crazy story, there's so much more to
• 21:26
  this than I knew in Skyjack is sort of leads to this other book
• 21:31
  and by then Skyjack was maybe three years old or something.
• 21:35
  And so I thought, well, okay, that other book must be out.
• 21:39
  So I ordered that one, read that next.
• 21:42
  And then just all right. Amazon has 17 books on d.b.
• 21:47
  Cooper. So I'll read all of them.
• 21:49
  And that also coincided with I started this new job where I
• 21:53
  work completely alone and I work or I listen to 40 to 60 hours a
• 22:00
  week of podcasts and talk radio. Wow.
• 22:03
  And I started I'd get on Apple podcasts and I'd search d.b.
• 22:07
  Cooper and there were I don't know, 40 different shows.
• 22:12
  This is back in like 2015. There were 40 different shows
• 22:16
  that had done one episode on Cooper.
• 22:19
  True Crime shows conspiracy shows And they were all exactly
• 22:23
  the same. It was two or three hosts.
• 22:26
  They would do 20 minutes on the skyjacking itself.
• 22:30
  They would do 20 minutes covering three different
• 22:32
  suspects and then the hosts would agree.
• 22:35
  Their favorite suspect boom. They solved the case I was so
• 22:40
  far ahead of what these people were doing.
• 22:42
  Like I'm like, okay, you got this detail on the skyjacking
• 22:45
  wrong, that details wrong. You're mixing up the back.
• 22:48
  Stories of these two suspects. I just started like
• 22:50
  fast-forwarding through It's a bit and I was just like, okay, I
• 22:53
  guess I just want to hear their opinion on the case and I
• 22:58
  started listening to this podcast about Mormonism called
• 23:03
  naked Mormonism by Bryce blank and Nagle.
• 23:06
  And he was when the show started, he was like, driving,
• 23:10
  an Interstate Battery truck or something like that.
• 23:13
  And had this podcast on the side and it became successful enough
• 23:17
  for him that he was able to quit his job and and podcast
• 23:21
  full-time. I'm nice and that really
• 23:25
  inspired me like, I thought Wow, if he can create a show that
• 23:29
  successful enough, that he could quit his job and do it, then
• 23:34
  there's no reason I can't do a small show for fun.
• 23:39
  So I Googled how to create a podcast and I had this idea and
• 23:46
  I thought well, the only way this is going to work is if I
• 23:49
  could get people to agree to be on my show, that doesn't exist
• 23:53
  yet. And so I reached out to five of
• 23:57
  people in the d.b. Cooper world who I thought would
• 24:00
  be great guests and I really wanted to interview them and I
• 24:04
  was a complete unknown. Like I wasn't posting on the
• 24:07
  forums, nobody knew my name. I didn't have any sort of cash a
• 24:12
  associated with me or anything. So I just emailed these five
• 24:15
  people and said, hey I want to do this TV Cooper podcast and
• 24:19
  I'd like you to be. I'd like you to be on it.
• 24:21
  I'd like you to be one of my first guests and all five people
• 24:25
  wrote back and said, yes, they'd love to be on the show.
• 24:27
  So I was like, okay well now I gotta create this actually, I
• 24:31
  got a hold of Bryce blanket Nagle and he gave me some advice
• 24:35
  about creating the show and his advice was like so much deeper
• 24:39
  than the questions. I was even asking because I
• 24:42
  remember him saying, like, well what's your end goal with this?
• 24:45
  Are you going to be like speaking at conferences or you
• 24:47
  going to be an authority or you going to be selling d.b.
• 24:50
  Cooper merchandise? And I was like, no, I just the
• 24:54
  goal is to collect all these stories in In one place.
• 24:58
  And then you can consume them there and he was like, okay.
• 25:02
  And you know, a few years later here, I am hosting these d.b.
• 25:05
  Cooper conferences, so he knew more about it than that.
• 25:11
  But I, yeah, I just got in my car.
• 25:14
  I drove I was living in Idaho at the time and drove from Boise,
• 25:18
  Idaho to Washington State, sort of did this big loop around the
• 25:22
  state and interviewed all five people in person.
• 25:26
  And drove back home with my interviews.
• 25:28
  And I was just so stoked. I was like, this is going to be
• 25:31
  the greatest show of all time. I'm a genius.
• 25:34
  I'm the greatest and then I tried to edit the show and I
• 25:38
  couldn't do it. It just, it wasn't turning out
• 25:42
  the way I wanted. I wanted sort of this cheesy
• 25:45
  Unsolved Mysteries Vibe, right. And I was really struggling to
• 25:49
  sort of clean up the interviews to, in particular, where the
• 25:53
  guests had a very odd. To the way he talked, all right,
• 25:58
  one guest was coughing and having a lot of like breathing
• 26:01
  issues and I just I couldn't figure out how to clean that up
• 26:06
  and so I actually sat on those first five interviews for
• 26:10
  probably five months wound. One day I was on a work trip.
• 26:17
  I like at a resort Dana Point and I'm on the beach in
• 26:22
  California and it's just beautiful.
• 26:24
  I'm reading this book. Book and I whip out my phone.
• 26:28
  You know, let's see what's going on on Facebook and one of the my
• 26:32
  first five any Breeze Brian. Woodruff he posted on Facebook,
• 26:36
  there was a guy who came around making big promises about a d.b.
• 26:40
  Cooper project and it never happened.
• 26:42
  The man is nothing but a liar and a phony and I looked at that
• 26:47
  and I was like, God damn, he's right?
• 26:49
  He's a hundred percent. Right?
• 26:52
  And so I when I got home I printed out.
• 26:56
  That little Facebook post and I clipped it to the edge of my
• 26:59
  monitor and I was like, I have something has to be done right
• 27:01
  now. And I reached out to Russell,
• 27:06
  Colburn, who I worked with him, probably eight months prior,
• 27:13
  something like that, and that sort of ended badly.
• 27:16
  But I knew that he went to school for audio video
• 27:20
  production and wanted to be doing that.
• 27:22
  But wasn't And so, I reached out to him, it was like, hey, meet
• 27:26
  me at this bar. I've got something I want to say
• 27:29
  to you and he was like, okay, we were, we weren't friends, like,
• 27:34
  we hung out at work, but outside of work, not at all and now we
• 27:38
  don't work together. So that's where our relationship
• 27:41
  was. And I met him at the bar and I
• 27:43
  was like, hey, I started this project.
• 27:45
  I have these five interviews. This is what I want.
• 27:49
  I can't do it, and I have nothing to offer you.
• 27:54
  Except I'll put your name on it as well and he was like okay
• 27:58
  let's do it and I was like really he's like yeah so I gave
• 28:03
  him the those first five interviews and he got him back
• 28:07
  to me real quick. Like a week later.
• 28:09
  Something and I was like this is exactly what I wanted.
• 28:13
  Like this is so perfect and I started listening to him and in
• 28:17
  a couple of those first five interviews I got into gossip.
• 28:23
  With my guests. Okay, like inside d.b.
• 28:27
  Cooper, gossip like what's going on in the forums?
• 28:29
  And there's this drama online happens, all the time.
• 28:33
  One guest in particular, we got real heavy into it, it was so
• 28:37
  juicy and it was like 20 minutes of this and he was naming names
• 28:42
  and saying this and that and it was amazing.
• 28:46
  And when I got him back from Russell, I was listening to that
• 28:49
  episode and I got to that part and it was missing the whole
• 28:52
  thing. He just completely Cut it out
• 28:55
  and I was like confused. And so I called him and I was
• 28:59
  like, hey man, why did you cut that part out?
• 29:03
  I thought that was the best part of the interview and he says,
• 29:06
  you think it's the best part of the interview because you know,
• 29:10
  all these people and you care about this inside drama with
• 29:15
  this, but the show isn't about the drama inside the d.b.
• 29:18
  Cooper world. The shows about Didi Cooper,
• 29:21
  right? And I was like, Yeah, I guess I
• 29:25
  guess you're right. I see your point and he was like
• 29:27
  so set in his ways about it where I was like I'm not even
• 29:30
  gonna argue it. He's doing me a favor so I'll
• 29:36
  just go with it and looking back.
• 29:38
  Now that was 100% the right thing to do because I think if I
• 29:43
  would have gone down sort of that gossip Road, I'd have a lot
• 29:47
  of guests. That wouldn't have come on the
• 29:49
  show, but I'm a little confused because like, it's the Ramen
• 29:54
  related to okay. So these people you know they
• 29:59
  know a lot about this. Let's call it Cooper verse which
• 30:03
  is what you call people Vortex. Cooper, versus people are saying
• 30:06
  verse These Days Cooper verse, they know a lot of other Cooper
• 30:08
  verse. They have a lot of information
• 30:09
  about this. Now, don't get me wrong, you
• 30:13
  know? I mean, I see it in professional
• 30:14
  wrestling people. Get argue over opinions, it's
• 30:18
  like, oh well, this is my favorite wrestler or well,
• 30:20
  you're a stupid for liking this wrestler and it's just like, But
• 30:24
  people argue about anything, these days, movies music doesn't
• 30:26
  matter so I get them, they're going to ask you that but but
• 30:31
  what what is the drama about with regards to specifically
• 30:34
  d.b. Cooper?
• 30:34
  Is it like oh this person doesn't know what they're
• 30:36
  talking about. They're they're you know, they
• 30:39
  don't pay attention to the facts that don't read the right books.
• 30:42
  It was it something like that? Or was it just like these people
• 30:45
  had met each other and they didn't like each other.
• 30:47
  Like I'm just a little bit confused.
• 30:49
  How drama was able to surface in?
• 30:53
  Is essentially like, just like a factual thing that you can have
• 30:58
  different opinions on on the case.
• 31:00
  But ultimately, it's okay. These are the facts that we
• 31:04
  have, these are different interpretations.
• 31:05
  We have based on the books or whatever resources we have and
• 31:08
  you know, you make up your own judgment, but like, no one's,
• 31:11
  right? So, it's like, I don't get what
• 31:14
  we're can drama. Could be created in that
• 31:16
  scenario. Where could drama be created?
• 31:20
  The answer is all of the above to that Question.
• 31:24
  So there are two main places on the internet where d.b.
• 31:29
  Cooper people gather and one. The original one is the Drop
• 31:34
  Zone which is a skydiving Forum that has one thread dedicated to
• 31:40
  d.b. Cooper.
• 31:41
  And I want to say right now it's like 2,700 pages long or
• 31:45
  something like that. Wow.
• 31:47
  And that was the Wild West, for d.b.
• 31:52
  Cooper, it would You know, you'd post your opinion.
• 31:55
  This is what I think about the parachute, blah, blah.
• 31:58
  And then you'd have six. People say you're an idiot.
• 32:01
  You don't know what you're talking about.
• 32:03
  I've been skydiving for 50 years and I know more than you and be
• 32:08
  like, well, you haven't done a Halo jump, so you don't know
• 32:11
  what you're talking about. There was doxxing going on on
• 32:15
  that Forum, oh my God, Hema word, there was a lot of
• 32:20
  aggressive going back and forth, Interestingly there was an FBI
• 32:26
  agent who was assigned to the case in the 2000s.
• 32:32
  So a long time after it happened and the case is Holt has just
• 32:38
  thought one second, the case is still open as far as it's being
• 32:41
  investigated, still to this day not really in 2016.
• 32:47
  The FBI closed their investigation.
• 32:49
  So the FBI going to put any more resources into this.
• 32:54
  It's amazed how them yeah right there that that case lasted for
• 32:58
  1971 tour 2016, that's insane. Yeah and they were still putting
• 33:03
  resources into it up until that time.
• 33:06
  So around I'm going to say it's around like 2008-2009.
• 33:12
  You had somebody join the Forum whose name was secret.
• 33:17
  The letter c k ret. Secret and this person secret
• 33:24
  got on the Forum and was very knowledgeable about the case.
• 33:29
  So knowledgeable that the people figured out that he had inside
• 33:32
  information and he was eventually outed on the form as
• 33:37
  an FBI agent and then was posting under that secret name.
• 33:44
  But it was known, he was agent Larry Carr who was working on
• 33:48
  the case and so that gave that crazy Internet DropZone Forum,
• 33:53
  some real legitimacy and people were sort of asking him
• 33:56
  questions and he was answering them and he was sort of looking
• 34:01
  for their opinions. I think it was more like let me
• 34:04
  hear what these people have to say and maybe it will give me
• 34:07
  some roads. I can go down.
• 34:09
  That's interesting. Yeah, it is interesting.
• 34:12
  And then he sort of left from there and it fell into darker
• 34:17
  chaos than it had previously made it up.
• 34:20
  I'm shutting that down so they shut the form down completely,
• 34:24
  they locked it and my friend, Dave opened up the new, the d.b.
• 34:30
  Cooper for m.com, where most of the people migrated to, but he
• 34:35
  was a lot more selective in who could be there.
• 34:39
  So, some of the troublemakers didn't make it onto the d.b.
• 34:43
  Cooper forum, Oh my God. Just and that makes some people
• 34:48
  upset to like there's this exclusivity to the right d.b.
• 34:52
  Cooper forum and to get on, you have to have like a
• 34:56
  recommendation from somebody who's already on sit to some
• 34:59
  extent though. I can understand that because I
• 35:02
  mean, as soon as you said threads, I immediately just
• 35:06
  thought thread it, right? And I'm sure there are DB Cooper
• 35:09
  bread. It's and then must be but the
• 35:13
  fact that there's like a specific It website and like
• 35:15
  it's locked and it's it is to prevent like trolls and to
• 35:19
  prevent, you know, people messing with things and, you
• 35:22
  know, I think to an extent that that's fair.
• 35:24
  But yeah, it sucks a little bit because, you know, like anyone
• 35:27
  can have an opinion, you know, and like I'm sure there are many
• 35:30
  people that have like, really great opinions, they'd love to
• 35:32
  share and obviously, they're not able to do so, so, that sense
• 35:35
  sucks. But at the same time, I do kind
• 35:37
  of understand, especially if you've got people doing wild
• 35:40
  stuff like ducks in like, that's mad.
• 35:43
  But okay, I'll leave. Crazier.
• 35:45
  There was a gentleman, who was going to do some presentation at
• 35:48
  his local library and a bomb threat was called in.
• 35:53
  So yeah. So he wasn't actually yeah.
• 35:57
  They had nothing to do with him, but someone called that from Oh
• 36:01
  no. I believe it very much had
• 36:03
  something to do with him. He was going to speak on d.b.
• 36:05
  Cooper at the library and somebody who didn't like him
• 36:10
  called in a bomb threat and it gets so crazy.
• 36:14
  Like I don't even know what parts of the story is real and
• 36:17
  what's not? But then the gentleman who was,
• 36:20
  I'm trying to not name names here as fun.
• 36:22
  Yeah. The gentleman who was the victim
• 36:25
  of the bomb threat. Then pointed the finger at a few
• 36:28
  others, he didn't like. And so then the police knocked
• 36:30
  On their door. Hey did you call in a bomb
• 36:34
  threat at a public library? Because that's a big deal.
• 36:38
  Jesus over d.b. Cooper.
• 36:40
  Oh flavor, d.b. Cooper.
• 36:42
  This is mad. I never expected any of this.
• 36:45
  I mean, it just goes to show, like, just how crazy people will
• 36:49
  get over it, just to pinions on stuff.
• 36:52
  Basically, if you really break it down to, like Bare Bones,
• 36:55
  that's what it is. It's like, well, I disagree with
• 36:58
  you there for I'm going to get you doxxed.
• 37:00
  I'm gonna do this T. Oh yeah.
• 37:02
  And there's this, I don't know what it is about d.b.
• 37:05
  Cooper but there is a Plague of people using other people's
• 37:11
  names online, right? So it's so bad, like it, when
• 37:15
  people reach out to me, I'm like, if you don't call me on
• 37:18
  the phone or face time, I'm done talking to you because I'm not
• 37:21
  sure if you are, who you say, you are like, that's how crazy
• 37:26
  it's gotten. There will be times where I've
• 37:29
  been talking to two different people and I start to wonder,
• 37:32
  are they the same person and nowhere else in my life?
• 37:36
  Does this happen to me? Me where I'm like worried about
• 37:38
  being catfished all the time but in the d.b.
• 37:42
  Cooper World hundred percent, I mean you could go on Bruce
• 37:46
  Smith's website the mountain news.
• 37:48
  He allows people to post comments on his on his blog like
• 37:53
  WordPress kind of thing and goddamn probably 40% of the
• 37:58
  comments are under a well-known name in the Cooper world and I
• 38:04
  guarantee you it's not that person just I guarantee you,
• 38:08
  it's not the person making that comment, you know, I've seen
• 38:11
  myself post on things and I'm like, I didn't write that.
• 38:16
  I didn't say that. And it's like, okay, I know it's
• 38:20
  this person or that person running around using my name.
• 38:25
  This absolute Madness. Um what's the most surprising
• 38:30
  thing you've learned about the d.b.
• 38:32
  Cooper case like the just shocked you that was just a bit
• 38:35
  left field maybe or something like that.
• 38:39
  One of the things that I can't get out of my mind is the comic
• 38:43
  book connection. So he shows up buys his ticket
• 38:48
  and you're going to give a fake name.
• 38:50
  If you're going to hijacked that plane it would be pretty silly
• 38:54
  to give your real name. Yeah.
• 38:55
  My name is Christian. Reeve, not a good look, don't do
• 39:00
  that. If you're hijacking the plane.
• 39:02
  So he gives his name is Dan Cooper.
• 39:05
  Yeah. Well there happens to be a comic
• 39:08
  book that by the name of Dan Cooper that predates the
• 39:14
  skyjacking and who is Dan Cooper in the comic book.
• 39:18
  Well he's a Royal Canadian Air Force pilot stunt pilot,
• 39:22
  Daredevil hero, he can be seen in the comic book skydiving.
• 39:27
  There's an episode where he is jumping out of an exploding
• 39:30
  commercial aircraft. There are a handful of Paris One
• 39:36
  where he diffuses a briefcase bomb on an airplane and saves
• 39:41
  the day. There are just a number of
• 39:44
  parallels to the d.b. Cooper case.
• 39:49
  And this Dan Cooper comic book that I just refuse to shake.
• 39:53
  It's too, it's too on the nose. I always use the example of if I
• 39:59
  hijacked a train and I escaped on a skateboard and then they
• 40:04
  look at the passenger log. My ticket was under the name.
• 40:07
  Tony Ha. Is that a coincidence?
• 40:10
  Or is that a no Maj to Tony Hawk?
• 40:13
  Seems like the ladder. Mmm, Yeah no I mean it's Yeah,
• 40:21
  it's going to be. That's where this person took
• 40:25
  inspiration from it, but I reckon he's got kick out of it.
• 40:29
  I can use. Just a really intelligent person
• 40:31
  who had obviously planned this out way.
• 40:35
  I recognized for, at least a year, they plan this out, you
• 40:37
  know, because something of that magnitude like there's a lot of
• 40:40
  risks involved. They knew what they were getting
• 40:42
  into. I don't even recognize you
• 40:46
  probably thought it would work. I reckon it's one of those deals
• 40:50
  but you know, Yeah, I don't, I don't believe in putting
• 40:54
  coincidence, personally. I think it's, you know, it's
• 40:57
  also connected in some shape or form.
• 41:00
  Another interesting thing about the comic book is it wasn't
• 41:03
  printed in English until way, way, after it was a
• 41:07
  franco-belgian, comic-book. I believe it's printed in German
• 41:12
  and French, and I've seen it in Spanish Cooper, famously, no
• 41:18
  discernible accent, sort of olive-skinned, If he was a
• 41:22
  French Canadian where the circulation of this comic book
• 41:26
  was was pretty big, you know, French Canadians, have a very
• 41:31
  specific accent, you know, if he's if he's from overseas
• 41:35
  somewhere, maybe you. couldn't tell some accent, but they
• 41:41
  wouldn't. So, where does this guy?
• 41:43
  See this comic book? I'm already in food in this.
• 41:49
  Le I'm glad that I chose to let you be the one to educate me on
• 41:55
  this rather than me spoiling it for myself because I already I
• 41:57
  don't I definitely I'd heard about this.
• 41:59
  Everyone's heard about this case.
• 42:00
  You know, it's like, you know I mentioned Jack the Ripper
• 42:03
  earlier is like there are certain cases that exist in the
• 42:06
  world that, you know, everyone knows about, you know, Because
• 42:11
  if the mysteriousness of them and that's actually another
• 42:13
  question. I wanted to ask you about which
• 42:15
  is, I don't know, I've kind of got two questions for you and
• 42:20
  they're both kind of obvious but I don't know.
• 42:22
  I'm just curious to get your opinion on them.
• 42:25
  Firstly, why do you think the case of d.b.
• 42:28
  Cooper is so popular? And secondly, and this is
• 42:30
  connected. Why do you think in general
• 42:35
  We're so obsessed with mystery and and having to know because,
• 42:39
  you know, as I said before, there's so many different cases.
• 42:42
  Like I think of that the Madeleine McCann case here in
• 42:45
  that happened. In Spain vs UK case.
• 42:47
  They actually just close that down.
• 42:49
  Nothing recently and you know it because to me I look at
• 42:54
  everything as Almost like that, that expression your curiosity,
• 43:00
  killed the cat. I think we just can't help it.
• 43:02
  We have to know. It's never enough to just be
• 43:05
  told. Oh, this is how it is.
• 43:07
  We have to, like, we always think there's more to it, you
• 43:10
  know. And the Mystery unsolved is just
• 43:13
  drives us nuts and sense. You know, we have to know and
• 43:16
  that's the thing as well. Like True Crime is obviously.
• 43:19
  So immensely popular right now and I think it's for the same
• 43:23
  reason. It's like people are just
• 43:25
  obsessed with The motivations behind why things happen or like
• 43:31
  the possibilities of why. Something is the case you know.
• 43:34
  But yeah, where do you sit on that?
• 43:38
  Why this case is so popular, I have a couple opinions on that
• 43:43
  one, is the whole James Bond aspect of it.
• 43:46
  You have this guy in a business suit hijacked the plane with
• 43:50
  sunglasses on. He's drinking bourbon in the
• 43:54
  back of the plane. While the stewardess seated next
• 43:57
  to him is lighting his cigarettes for him.
• 44:00
  He escapes completely into the darkness, never to be seen
• 44:05
  again. He pulls This off without
• 44:09
  hurting anyone and not only did he not physically hurt anyone?
• 44:13
  They said he was polite afterward.
• 44:16
  So you have this sort of James Bond antihero, if he would have
• 44:21
  brutally, stabbed three of The stewardesses Today.
• 44:25
  I don't believe he would be this popular guy on t-shirts ride a.
• 44:30
  So the fact that no one was physically hurt.
• 44:33
  And who did he take the money from?
• 44:35
  It wasn't a mom-and-pop diner. It was an airline.
• 44:40
  Do you have any sympathy for Airlines?
• 44:41
  Christian, I don't know. Too many people that do when you
• 44:46
  hear they lost two hundred thousand dollars to this polite
• 44:49
  well-dressed Skyjacker. You're not really on their side.
• 44:55
  So and especially in the Portland, Seattle, Pacific,
• 44:58
  Northwest area, that's a little bit.
• 45:00
  Hippy-dippy were all Rebels. It really took off in that area
• 45:06
  so that's one of the reasons I think this case is so popular.
• 45:09
  The other like you said is that it's unsolved.
• 45:13
  I think of this case is if I'm reading my favorite book of all
• 45:17
  time. This is the best book.
• 45:20
  Amazing, I can't wait to read the end, and I get to it in the
• 45:23
  last three chapters are gone. And I have to Know How It Ends.
• 45:29
  How does this end? This is an incredible Amazing
• 45:33
  Story, and I don't have all the details, not even all the
• 45:38
  details. I don't have most of the
• 45:40
  details. The only thing we know about
• 45:43
  d.b. Cooper is he got on?
• 45:45
  Plane, and he left. Somewhere we don't even exactly
• 45:49
  nowhere and that's the only time frame, he exists.
• 45:54
  There's no d.b. Cooper story before he gets on
• 45:56
  the plane. There's none after.
• 45:59
  So it's almost like it's the best book I've ever read but I
• 46:05
  Couldn't read the first few chapters and the last few
• 46:07
  chapters are missing it. Just, I can't let it go.
• 46:15
  I don't think you ever will either.
• 46:17
  That's not like I've tried walking II.
• 46:19
  I interviewed my friend Chris Williamson who has sort of done
• 46:24
  almost the exact same thing with Amelia Earhart.
• 46:27
  Oh and we sort of discovered each other later after our
• 46:32
  projects were both well established.
• 46:34
  And he told me, he's like I've tried walking away from this
• 46:38
  several times and I've done the same thing.
• 46:42
  I've said, okay, I'm walking away from this and I just get
• 46:46
  pulled back that's why they called the Cooper Vortex
• 46:49
  originally, I was going to call the Neo the d.b.
• 46:51
  Cooper podcast because that's how creative I am.
• 46:55
  But everyone, I talked to kept saying the Cooper board, the
• 47:00
  Cooper Vortex, it sucks you in and you can't escape and so.
• 47:04
  Like well shit. I have to call it the Cooper
• 47:06
  Vortex because that's a way better name.
• 47:10
  I think it speaks a lot to, I mean, I mentioned, obviously,
• 47:12
  our obsession with mystery and having to know, but I think it's
• 47:16
  also just us as humans in general.
• 47:19
  We're always asking questions, you know, I remember when I was
• 47:22
  at school and I've said this on the show before, but you know, I
• 47:25
  was actively told by teachers, stop asking questions, just
• 47:28
  accept things. You know.
• 47:30
  And I was just, I knew as a child.
• 47:33
  That that was wrong. I knew that that was nonsense.
• 47:35
  It's like, no, surely. That's the point of life is to
• 47:39
  Ask questions and keep asking questions, and obviously, we
• 47:42
  take cases like this that the infuriating but also exciting
• 47:47
  element of it is you just keep exploring, keep learning new
• 47:51
  things and then you have even more questions.
• 47:54
  Because, you know, like, even even when you were laying out
• 47:57
  before the beginning of this podcast, I just had about at
• 47:59
  least 56 different questions. Just off, just off the just
• 48:02
  listening to that. Obviously, the more you study
• 48:04
  something in research, something just, you get more and more
• 48:08
  questions, and I think, That's part of the beauty of life in
• 48:11
  general and being a human and The Human Experience is just
• 48:15
  asking questions and and debating each other and just
• 48:19
  having fun with it. So I got a together, I think
• 48:22
  there's there's two types of people.
• 48:24
  It if you see a magic trick and this guy pulls 10 doves out of
• 48:28
  his ball cap. You're either going to be
• 48:32
  thinking to yourself for a long time.
• 48:34
  How did he do that? Magic balls type of person?
• 48:39
  It's like, wow, that was a cool trick and walk away and they
• 48:42
  don't think about it work. I don't get that, I don't get
• 48:46
  that, I've never understood that, I know where you're going
• 48:49
  with this, but I will just say, before you continue.
• 48:51
  Like, I don't understand that, like someone listening to this
• 48:55
  case and they hit, oh, wow. That's amazing.
• 48:57
  Amazing. And then they don't have any
• 48:59
  questions that just like, okay, well, that sounds cool and then
• 49:02
  they walk away. What like how do you not have 15
• 49:05
  questions right there? How do you not want to know and
• 49:08
  everyone's different? Yes.
• 49:09
  Yes, I know, but still like I don't get that and maybe it's
• 49:14
  just like, people accept things as they are.
• 49:16
  And, you know, their focuses are elsewhere, but I don't know.
• 49:19
  Like, for me, that's just I'm, oh yeah, I'm same as you.
• 49:23
  I get obsessive with things. I just can't stop asking
• 49:26
  questions because it's just fascinating.
• 49:29
  Yeah, I almost wish I was the person that could just walk
• 49:31
  away. I hope that was a cool trick,
• 49:34
  but no, instead, I'm the guy who's lying in bed at 2:00 in
• 49:37
  the morning. How did he do that?
• 49:39
  Gotta figure this out. Was there, like, an official?
• 49:43
  Because you mentioned the case was closed officially in 2016.
• 49:46
  As far as they're not putting any resources into it, but did
• 49:48
  they give luck an official ruling?
• 49:51
  Or you know, like a prevailing opinion of?
• 49:54
  Okay. Well, this is what we think
• 49:55
  might have happened, or did they just close it?
• 49:58
  And we're just like, yeah, whatever.
• 50:01
  I believe the FBI leans toward the idea that he died in the
• 50:04
  jump. Mmm.
• 50:06
  Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that because how high did you
• 50:11
  say that? Fight was, is praying about just
• 50:13
  above 10,000 feet. Yeah, 10,000 feet.
• 50:17
  So okay. I know nothing about skydiving
• 50:20
  or flying or anything. Do you know much about your
• 50:25
  chances of survival at that feel like how much training you need
• 50:29
  to sort of survive a jump like that?
• 50:30
  Like, you know, any. But this is something I've done
• 50:32
  a lot of research on Christian bandana.
• 50:40
  First of all, I'll say this. This there is no evidence that
• 50:45
  he died in the jump right. There is also no evidence that
• 50:48
  he survived the jump. So that's where we're at with
• 50:51
  that. But if you believe he died in
• 50:54
  the jump, I would point you to Marty Andrew days book, Finding
• 50:59
  d.b. Cooper.
• 51:00
  Chasing the, lastly, he spends most of that book debating the
• 51:05
  survivability of the jump, right?
• 51:07
  And he uses allies data from World War.
• 51:12
  You airplane, ejections. So young boys, up in the air
• 51:18
  whose planes have been shot down.
• 51:20
  They jump out of the plane. What are the odds that they
• 51:24
  survived Make It To The Ground alive?
• 51:27
  And these are, you know, sometimes could be conditions at
• 51:31
  night in terrible weather and the wing was shot off and the
• 51:34
  plane is spiraling and they jump out and he found out that there
• 51:38
  is a 95% chance that they reach the ground.
• 51:41
  Alive and some of those dudes, maybe had one practice jump.
• 51:48
  Most probably only had classroom training on if the shit hits the
• 51:52
  fan and you have to jump out of your airplane, this is what you
• 51:55
  do and the vast majority of them survived.
• 51:59
  And I talked to a lot of parachutists and that those
• 52:03
  people as a group tend to be very cocky, but they all
• 52:07
  believe, oh yeah, I could totally make that jump, it's no
• 52:10
  problem. I've Two US Navy, Seals US Air
• 52:15
  Force pararescue smokejumpers. They all believe that the jump
• 52:21
  is, is totally survivable. There were also a handful of
• 52:25
  d.b. Cooper copycats, all of which
• 52:28
  survived their jump. One of which even asked for a
• 52:33
  flyer on how to use a parachute. He survived that jump So in my
• 52:40
  opinion, there just seems to be so much more supporting the idea
• 52:46
  of he survived the jump. No one's found a dead body.
• 52:51
  I just, I believe 100%. He survived that jump.
• 52:56
  If he pulls his parachute and lands in a tree, then at the
• 53:01
  very least, we would have found his parachute right away if he's
• 53:05
  a no pole and lands in the ground.
• 53:07
  And Leave the ground closes up on top of him and we just
• 53:12
  weren't able to walk across. That one piece of land, I just I
• 53:16
  don't believe that they had like 300 People March through the
• 53:20
  woods, a few months, after looking for a body, a parachute,
• 53:23
  anything. And they actually found the body
• 53:28
  of a teenage girl who had gone missing, like a decade prior,
• 53:32
  but I don't believe she was a d.b.
• 53:35
  Cooper suspect. I've got a really wacky out
• 53:38
  there fairy but I'm just curious to see what you think of this.
• 53:42
  Is there a theory that d.b. Cooper never existed at all?
• 53:46
  And that it was a conspiracy between all of the people
• 53:50
  working on the plane. That's all.
• 53:52
  Yes, thank you for bringing that up.
• 53:55
  Fury sucks. I hate it.
• 53:56
  It's God. No, no.
• 53:57
  I thought do you think it's flawed completely?
• 53:59
  But I'm just intrigued, like, as a concierge, there's two
• 54:02
  theories that I'm just Willing to listen to this, you don't
• 54:07
  know anything about this case. One is that Cooper never existed
• 54:11
  and it was his sort of the figment of the flight Crews
• 54:14
  imagination and they split the money, right?
• 54:18
  So you have six or seven people you'd be splitting.
• 54:20
  The 200,000 with Pilot back then was an exceptional job.
• 54:26
  Those dudes made great money. It's still a good job today.
• 54:30
  If you talk to someone who was a stewardess back in the Golden
• 54:34
  Age of flying back, then they all tell you the same thing,
• 54:38
  they loved the job. It was a great job.
• 54:41
  How many gigs were there for a 22 year?
• 54:44
  Old woman in 1971, that would allow you to fly the world and
• 54:48
  be glamorous at the same time to go to Italy on the For free.
• 54:54
  It was a great gig and all the people.
• 54:57
  I've talked to that worked for Airlines back then have a really
• 55:01
  positive impression and view of the experience.
• 55:05
  So I don't think that you could have got those six or seven
• 55:09
  people together to pull this off for two hundred thousand dollars
• 55:13
  and then we're going to whack it up six different ways.
• 55:16
  I just don't believe that the other theory that is just
• 55:20
  complete bullshit. I can't.
• 55:23
  Is he never jumped off the plane.
• 55:26
  He hid in some secret compartment when the plane lands
• 55:30
  in Reno, and then he after the plane is searched, he's somehow
• 55:34
  able to just calmly walk off the plane and blend in with all the
• 55:39
  FBI agents and Airport employees and it's it's ridiculous.
• 55:43
  You know, if you ever been on an airplane, they don't have a
• 55:47
  bunch of spare room that they're not using the aircraft uses
• 55:51
  every inch of Available space. There's there's not a bunch of
• 55:56
  hiding spots in there and they also searched the playing with
• 56:00
  dogs, he jumped. Yeah, it certainly would seem
• 56:08
  that way. I mean because I love playing
• 56:09
  conspiracy theorist with these things.
• 56:11
  I think it's just a lot of fun and that's probably a large part
• 56:14
  of the fun. I suppose.
• 56:17
  One more thing he had he was witnessed at the airport by a
• 56:21
  couple of people. But he was just another guy in a
• 56:24
  business suit at the Portland airport.
• 56:27
  So the only really witness description is yeah, I remember
• 56:30
  seeing that guy. He sat over there that's all I
• 56:33
  have to say and Bill Mitchell was one of the only passengers
• 56:39
  to get a good look at him and he was flying home from college.
• 56:43
  He was going to school in Montana I believe and no I'm
• 56:47
  sorry, he was going to school at Oregon State.
• 56:49
  He's going to school Oregon State and was flying home to
• 56:52
  Seattle. And Tina mucklow, the
• 56:54
  stewardess, that was sitting next to Cooper, really
• 56:57
  good-looking gal. And so Bill Mitchell, this 21
• 57:01
  year old, dude, he's looking over and he thinks to himself.
• 57:05
  Why is that good-looking, stewardess, sit next to that old
• 57:08
  geeky guy? And that's like his direct quote
• 57:10
  Old, geeky looking guy, and so, he's really the only one that
• 57:15
  got to look. And the only reason he got a
• 57:17
  look at him is because he was curious.
• 57:19
  Why, why is she paying attention to him and not me?
• 57:23
  Is sort of the jealous young man point of view interested.
• 57:29
  I've got a few more questions about the case, that just sort
• 57:32
  of trick them into my mind as I'm thinking about it.
• 57:35
  So I hope you will entertain them just for the time being.
• 57:37
  Yeah, I love talking about this. Yeah, I can tell it's just I
• 57:41
  think the reason I was bit trepidatious about this is a
• 57:44
  didn't want to kind of ask you stuff that you've been asked
• 57:46
  like a million times before which I imagine is very
• 57:48
  difficult not to do but at the same time I think for me from an
• 57:56
  outsider's perspective looking in its It's just a classic thing
• 58:00
  of like it. You find yourself with a million
• 58:02
  different questions because the human brain is brilliant, isn't
• 58:05
  it? And in the way that it, you
• 58:06
  know, and what you were saying before about how FBI agent sort
• 58:11
  of found themselves going into forums and asking people
• 58:15
  questions and stuff? Like I think I think that's
• 58:17
  brilliant. I think that demonstrates that,
• 58:19
  you know, they probably stuck for leads, didn't know what to
• 58:22
  do and so it's like why not just look at what people are saying
• 58:26
  and go. Hmm, maybe that's something
• 58:28
  we've not considered before. Hmm.
• 58:29
  Maybe you know overlooked or? Yeah it's just because the human
• 58:32
  mind is brilliant. As now you can just come up with
• 58:34
  things and because we're all so different and we all think in
• 58:39
  different ways, perfect. You get lots of different
• 58:41
  perspectives things. You'd never would have thought
• 58:43
  of and it's brilliant. One question, I want to ask is,
• 58:50
  is okay, so presumably there are theories about, you know, Yeah,
• 58:55
  he survived the jump. So then what next like, is there
• 58:58
  any ideas as to like what his route might have been there
• 59:03
  after you know plan? Because I mean look you've got
• 59:05
  200,000 pounds in cash. You got a concealed, you know,
• 59:11
  the fact that you're bashing from a plane commercial flight,
• 59:14
  you know, it's how do you get whatever?
• 59:17
  And also here's another thing as well and this kind of reminds me
• 59:20
  of I don't know why, but I kept thinking that the Shawshank
• 59:24
  Redemption the movie for some reason, when the main character
• 59:28
  sort of comes out and starts going along the country and
• 59:31
  taking out amounts from it. Every bank and closing the
• 59:34
  accounts, but the reason that works at least in the storyline
• 59:37
  perspective is that he's cleverly, put little amount in
• 59:42
  all these bangs. And then, you know, just going
• 59:44
  one by one closing, the account. And then moving forward, and
• 59:48
  obviously, there are things like paper trails and stuff.
• 59:51
  If like that but he was very careful to cover his tracks.
• 59:53
  But if you're a guy, you got 200,000 pounds in cash, it's
• 59:57
  like that's going to be very difficult to conceal.
• 1:00:01
  You need to have like a clearly thought out plan of like how
• 1:00:05
  you're going to manage that and stuff like that.
• 1:00:06
  So I just wondered. What's the kind of prevailing
• 1:00:10
  thought process as to his next actions may be okay.
• 1:00:14
  I have a really long answer for you on that.
• 1:00:16
  He'll go for it. Yeah.
• 1:00:17
  Go for it. So he asks for 200,000 dollars.
• 1:00:21
  They have to come up with two hundred thousand dollars in
• 1:00:24
  cash. Now, weirdly see, First Bank in
• 1:00:28
  Seattle, they had 250,000 dollars cash set aside in their
• 1:00:34
  vault for such an emergency, some sort of hostage situation.
• 1:00:39
  They need a ransom here. We have this block of money in
• 1:00:42
  the bank and they had all this serial numbers and bills
• 1:00:47
  documented. Serial numbers are all written
• 1:00:49
  down in the bills. Run Microfilm, whatever the hell
• 1:00:53
  that high-tech film is in 71 and so they know all the serial
• 1:00:59
  numbers of these bills. So they give him the money.
• 1:01:02
  He escapes with the money. No money is found until February
• 1:01:09
  of 1980, when some parents and their eight-year-old son are on
• 1:01:15
  this. Sandy Beach area of the Columbia
• 1:01:17
  River, the boy brushes, some sand aside and finds this pile
• 1:01:22
  of garbage. He picks it up and oh it's not
• 1:01:24
  garbage. This is money, deteriorated
• 1:01:27
  money and so that's the first and really only evidence found
• 1:01:33
  of the d.b. Cooper skyjacking Is fifty eight
• 1:01:36
  hundred dollars that was found on the beach of Tina bar.
• 1:01:40
  The problem with the money being found, there is it's wildly
• 1:01:45
  outside of the accepted Drop Zone.
• 1:01:49
  It's right. It's like 20 miles, west of the
• 1:01:52
  accepted flight path and the wind would have been blowing
• 1:01:56
  East so anything that jumps or falls out of the plane should
• 1:02:00
  have traveled East from the flight path.
• 1:02:03
  So it just doesn't make any sense and there's never been any
• 1:02:06
  explanation for how the money got there.
• 1:02:09
  And then Tom K, who is a paleontologist who sort of fell
• 1:02:15
  into investigating some of this Tina borrow money.
• 1:02:19
  He had a paper published about a year ago, two years ago where it
• 1:02:24
  was actually the first use of diatoms in a forensic
• 1:02:29
  investigation. Now what are diatoms I'm not
• 1:02:33
  quite sure because I'm a dummy, not a scientist.
• 1:02:35
  But basically diatoms are these single-celled organisms that
• 1:02:40
  grow like a glass shell on the outside.
• 1:02:43
  They live very brief life and died in a period of a few weeks
• 1:02:47
  or months and it's what is inside diatomaceous earth.
• 1:02:52
  It's these little diatoms and he was able to find some of those
• 1:02:58
  on the bills. And the interesting thing about
• 1:03:01
  the diatoms, On the bills is they were only of a spring
• 1:03:05
  variety. So Cooper jumps out of the plane
• 1:03:09
  and November. The money is found on the beach
• 1:03:12
  in February of 1989 years later. But weirdly the money only got
• 1:03:20
  wet in the river in the springtime.
• 1:03:23
  So any other theories we had for how the money got there, maybe
• 1:03:28
  he landed in the Columbia and the money scattered and it got
• 1:03:31
  dredged or floated there. That's sort of all out the
• 1:03:35
  window now because the money was only wet for a brief time, the
• 1:03:39
  spring. So we thought we had no idea
• 1:03:42
  where the money came from and with some more evidence and
• 1:03:45
  work. Now we really don't know where
• 1:03:46
  the money came from. So no one legitimately.
• 1:03:50
  No one has a good explanation for how the money.
• 1:03:53
  Out there, why the money got there?
• 1:03:56
  The other thing I will say about the money in my super long
• 1:03:59
  answer is. I believed that the money could
• 1:04:02
  have been spent. So you the FBI gave a list of
• 1:04:08
  10,000, non sequential serial numbers to Banks to casinos.
• 1:04:14
  Hey, if you see any of these 20s come through, it's one of
• 1:04:18
  Cooper's, let us know. And nothing ever came up of
• 1:04:22
  that. But I assumed A few things
• 1:04:26
  incorrect. So I had this guy on my show
• 1:04:28
  named Arthur Friedberg and if you look him up he is the guy.
• 1:04:33
  When it comes to US currency, he literally wrote the book on US.
• 1:04:37
  Paper currency. It's called us paper.
• 1:04:39
  Currency by Arthur Friedberg. If you're a collector of
• 1:04:43
  currency, the last name is very familiar because his family
• 1:04:47
  created the system for identifying bills, called the
• 1:04:51
  Friedberg system. He is the guy when it.
• 1:04:55
  Comes to money and I had him on the show and I said, Arthur do
• 1:04:59
  you think he could have spent any of that money and he
• 1:05:02
  immediately said, no, the idea that you are going to have, you
• 1:05:07
  know, over 9,000 twenty dollar bills, brighter circulation, and
• 1:05:12
  the idea that not a single one of those bills comes up on a
• 1:05:15
  flag transaction over 50 years, he said that the math doesn't
• 1:05:21
  check out in his head. He said that money was never
• 1:05:23
  spent and I really wanted to disagree with him.
• 1:05:28
  But, you know, here I am sitting across from a guy who obviously
• 1:05:32
  knows more about money in the United States and how it moves
• 1:05:36
  around the me and I told him, well, what if he, you know, took
• 1:05:40
  the money to to Haiti or to Canada or to Costa Rica where
• 1:05:45
  you could probably spend US currency?
• 1:05:48
  You know, well what about like spending money on the black
• 1:05:51
  market or something like that you know, not officially because
• 1:05:54
  I Rajan, That amount of money. And in those quantities, you'd
• 1:06:00
  have to spend it in the various ways in order to not arouse
• 1:06:04
  suspicion. Most likely that's true.
• 1:06:07
  But if I, if I am able to launder my money through through
• 1:06:12
  your fake Smoothie business or whatever, and that money gets
• 1:06:16
  into other people's hands and then Johnny ends up going to buy
• 1:06:20
  new Fiesta ST. And cash.
• 1:06:23
  And, but one of those Bill's was a Cooper bill.
• 1:06:28
  So then it gets flagged. So it's not just you spending
• 1:06:33
  the money and it gets flagged, it's 37 people down the line
• 1:06:39
  spending that money. That becomes part of a flag to
• 1:06:42
  transaction. They look at those serial
• 1:06:44
  numbers. None of them are associated with
• 1:06:47
  any crimes. So I really don't believe at
• 1:06:51
  this point in time that that the money was spent.
• 1:06:55
  Yeah, I can see, I can see. I can see the thought process
• 1:07:00
  behind that. I mean, I think it just in any
• 1:07:02
  kind of major case where you've got ours, a lovely buggy, and
• 1:07:05
  then picture there. I love dogs.
• 1:07:10
  Yeah. Any case where there's just like
• 1:07:12
  an exceptional amount of money? It becomes problematic I mean I
• 1:07:16
  think of the series Breaking Bad are you familiar with the series
• 1:07:21
  you must Miss. Oh hell yeah right for those who
• 1:07:23
  don't know, basically a guy unfortunately gets cancer And
• 1:07:29
  instead of accepting money from his friends and family in order
• 1:07:33
  to sort of handle treatment and go through the process, he
• 1:07:37
  decides to start cooking meth with one of his previous high
• 1:07:41
  school students and all hell in Sue's.
• 1:07:46
  But obviously he is successful to a degree and ends up getting
• 1:07:50
  a lot of money and ends up having this problem of, like,
• 1:07:54
  what the hell do I do with all this money?
• 1:07:55
  And he obviously launders money for businesses, which works to
• 1:07:58
  an but it's, he still, I mean, there's that famous scene where
• 1:08:02
  it's him and his wife, and he City literally got like a
• 1:08:07
  massive Crepe sized amount. No I can not bigger than that.
• 1:08:13
  Like a pallet sized amount of money and there's got to be at
• 1:08:15
  least 250,000 dollars there 500,000 maybe even a million And
• 1:08:22
  the first thing I thought about that was like you did.
• 1:08:24
  There's just getting this kind of amount of money at one time,
• 1:08:29
  is a problem. You know, it's a big problem,
• 1:08:32
  you know, like it is if you win the lottery tomorrow.
• 1:08:36
  It's like you can't just like put it in the bank, you know?
• 1:08:39
  I mean, like, you got to like put it in the specialist band,
• 1:08:42
  you go to there's different ways, you got to do these
• 1:08:45
  things, you know, it's Gotta Get taxed.
• 1:08:47
  I mean that's a whole other thing right there, you know.
• 1:08:50
  Yeah. You can try and put it into a
• 1:08:51
  system. But then there's this all these
• 1:08:53
  rules that applied to it like it's and the more you have, the
• 1:08:56
  more hassle it is. It's it makes you wonder,
• 1:09:01
  doesn't it? Like maybe this person, you
• 1:09:03
  know? Yeah, they might have had like
• 1:09:05
  fantastic flight experience and expertise and stuff like that
• 1:09:08
  but maybe they would just want very good with money is quite
• 1:09:12
  possible. Like they just didn't think that
• 1:09:14
  part through. Yeah, one of the suspects are
• 1:09:18
  Wolfgang Gossett, he sort of gets entangled in.
• 1:09:22
  Some drama with a few ladies, he owes money and some gambling
• 1:09:27
  problems, right? So it was believed that this,
• 1:09:30
  that was the solution to his money issues.
• 1:09:34
  Of course, that's a good point, as well as like, could that
• 1:09:37
  money have been used in gambling contacts because that's probably
• 1:09:40
  one of the only acceptable ways you could.
• 1:09:45
  You know, get away with gambling, a large amount of
• 1:09:47
  money without being asked questions.
• 1:09:49
  Potentially, you know, the other how many bookies are taken
• 1:09:54
  Beth's that big, you know, adjusted for inflation.
• 1:09:57
  It's 1.25 million today, okay. Placing that bet with a Vegas
• 1:10:03
  bookie today. I can't call in to Vegas and
• 1:10:05
  say, hey man, give me 1.25 million on the Nuggets tonight,
• 1:10:10
  what up? But you know, what I mean is you
• 1:10:12
  have to kind of do it in increments when you so you I
• 1:10:14
  like 50,000 here 10,000 there, I don't know.
• 1:10:16
  So maybe I'm just potentially I don't know.
• 1:10:20
  I mean it's yeah but yeah no I mean to get to like that level
• 1:10:24
  of betting that in those amounts you have to be accepted as part
• 1:10:28
  of like their little Club don't you like millionaires Club so to
• 1:10:32
  speak? Oh yeah I remember reading once
• 1:10:36
  it was I think it was OHS Jay-Z. Jay-Z has a fantasy football
• 1:10:41
  league where it's a million dollar entry fee Winner Takes
• 1:10:43
  all That's pretty cool. I'll be pretty cool man.
• 1:10:50
  Um, well what do you think of this sort of the key lessons or
• 1:10:54
  takeaways that we should take from the d.b.
• 1:10:56
  Cooper case? That's a good question.
• 1:11:02
  I think for me, one of the lessons I've taken from this is
• 1:11:08
  I've interviewed several people who their their uncle was d.b.
• 1:11:13
  Cooper, their grandpa was d.b. Cooper, their friend was d.b.
• 1:11:17
  Cooper, their ex-husband was d.b.
• 1:11:19
  Cooper. And what I've learned from that
• 1:11:23
  is that all of those people are telling the truth They really
• 1:11:28
  are because in almost every circumstance, it was their loved
• 1:11:33
  one who told them they were Cooper.
• 1:11:36
  And so a lot of times it's a deathbed confession.
• 1:11:40
  Weirdly in this case somewhere between dozens and up to 900,
• 1:11:45
  people have confessed to this crime in a realistic way.
• 1:11:50
  I think tens of thousands have confessed sort of as a joke.
• 1:11:55
  I mean you could go on Twitter tomorrow and type.
• 1:11:57
  I am Be Cooper and you will get 10,000 different people who have
• 1:12:02
  tweeted that are those serious confessions?
• 1:12:05
  No, but there have been many confessions that were serious
• 1:12:11
  Wolfgang. Gossip for example, he told both
• 1:12:14
  of his sons on their 18th birthday and he also told two
• 1:12:18
  different lawyers in two different states, the full
• 1:12:22
  story, You had Dwayne Weber confess on his deathbed.
• 1:12:29
  I am Dan Cooper and then his ex Joe goes to the local library,
• 1:12:38
  and picks up the 1 DB Cooper book, they had because she
• 1:12:41
  didn't know who Dan Cooper, d.b. Cooper was and it had her dead
• 1:12:46
  husband's handwriting in the margins of the book.
• 1:12:50
  Interesting. Kenny Crystal Concerned sort of
• 1:12:55
  a loose confession is brother interpreted as I'm d.b.
• 1:12:59
  Cooper and ran with that narrative.
• 1:13:03
  Barb Dayton, she confessed to the Foreman's that she was d.b.
• 1:13:07
  Cooper. And if I've learned anything,
• 1:13:12
  it's that when a loved one tells you something like that and you
• 1:13:16
  love them. You know, this is, this is my
• 1:13:18
  dad, this is my uncle. This is my best friend.
• 1:13:21
  They're not going to lie to me about this.
• 1:13:23
  So then you puts these people on a journey to prove, their loved
• 1:13:29
  one, right? Not even necessarily solve the
• 1:13:33
  Cooper case, it always goes, down this angle of proving your
• 1:13:38
  loved one, right? Which is why I've decided on my
• 1:13:41
  deathbed that I'm going to confess to some insane shit to
• 1:13:44
  my family while know what they're doing after.
• 1:13:47
  I'm dead. It's just what a mess with your
• 1:13:51
  family, I love it. What do you think all these
• 1:13:56
  people lied? I mean, yeah, I get the idea of
• 1:13:59
  it would be cool to mess maybe with people.
• 1:14:02
  R2 to create a loner mysterious atmosphere around your death or
• 1:14:09
  around you, and general book. Why do you think so many people
• 1:14:12
  have confessed to being d.b. Cooper?
• 1:14:14
  Like what what is the point of lying about something like this?
• 1:14:18
  That's a question I asked on my show to almost every guest.
• 1:14:22
  Oh, cool. And I think the biggest reason
• 1:14:26
  for it is that He was cool and you know, maybe I lived this
• 1:14:32
  boring life or I lived sort of life where I have a lot of
• 1:14:36
  regrets and I was loosely associated with this, you know,
• 1:14:42
  maybe one time somebody joked, oh yeah, maybe maybe, Walt did.
• 1:14:47
  I could imagine while doing this and so that's sort of in the
• 1:14:51
  back of your mind and You know, I'm not sure.
• 1:14:56
  I I see why people do it but I could I definitely couldn't see
• 1:15:04
  myself doing it. I get it.
• 1:15:08
  I wasn't really expecting it on. So I guess I was just kind of
• 1:15:12
  intrigued because No. I mean people would lie about
• 1:15:16
  all sorts of crazy stuff. You know, of course.
• 1:15:18
  Oh yeah there aren't a lot of people lining up to say, I was
• 1:15:22
  the Zodiac Killer. Yeah.
• 1:15:23
  Yeah I know some great. There's no cash a in that no
• 1:15:26
  one's going to buy you a drink at the bar because you were the
• 1:15:29
  Zodiac Killer. There are many bars in Oregon
• 1:15:33
  Washington where if you walked in and said I'm d.b.
• 1:15:35
  Cooper drinks are free. So that's part of the
• 1:15:40
  difference. He's not no one's really looking
• 1:15:43
  down on him anymore. That same way occasionally, I'll
• 1:15:48
  have a guest. It's like, you know, it's really
• 1:15:49
  important to know that he was hijacker and was threatening all
• 1:15:54
  these people's lives with that bomb.
• 1:15:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:15:58
  I do see your point but I don't even really believe the bomb was
• 1:16:02
  real. I think that's it.
• 1:16:04
  Yeah. So Yeah, and if you want to
• 1:16:07
  cultivate fear amongst people but also not be stressed
• 1:16:13
  yourself. You would lie about something
• 1:16:14
  like that in that kind of situation and given that this
• 1:16:18
  situation seems to imply that this person had a good deal of
• 1:16:21
  understanding of human psychology and it at least even
• 1:16:24
  just on a basic level. They knew enough to know how to
• 1:16:28
  kind of manipulate people into fear and to believe in him, he
• 1:16:33
  must have been a good A good liar, you know, to be able to
• 1:16:39
  cultivate that. Like I just I just think in that
• 1:16:41
  kind of a situation where it is possible, there could have been
• 1:16:44
  a pain, but that I just feel that that's too much going on to
• 1:16:47
  think about, you know, like the your bomb on top of everything
• 1:16:49
  else I just and also I mean, okay, it's different time but it
• 1:16:53
  would have been very difficult to smuggle the bomb on a plane.
• 1:16:57
  Even then, not impossible. It's different time.
• 1:17:01
  I don't think it was difficult down at all.
• 1:17:03
  I mean, they're right. Nobody looked at his luggage or
• 1:17:05
  anything. Richard McCoy did a copycat
• 1:17:08
  skyjacking approximately six months later.
• 1:17:11
  He brought his own parachute on the plane.
• 1:17:14
  So there's there's that value. Get aboard a plane and you see
• 1:17:21
  someone with a suspicious briefcase and a parachute, huh?
• 1:17:25
  I don't know about this guy. You'll close to 300,000
• 1:17:30
  downloads for your show on popping.
• 1:17:32
  I checked it the other day, it's about 296,000.
• 1:17:36
  So roundups nearly faint 300,000.
• 1:17:40
  How did I mean, how long has the show been going?
• 1:17:43
  How did you achieve this, incredible feat and what does it
• 1:17:46
  mean to you? I've been doing the show, hold
• 1:17:49
  on, let my dog out of the room. So for those listening got this,
• 1:17:55
  lovely What what what breed is the dog actually just wondering?
• 1:18:01
  All right, sorry about that. How unprofessional me?
• 1:18:03
  What breed is the dog? She's a German Shepherd.
• 1:18:06
  Gemma Chef is lovely. Yeah, I recommend those who
• 1:18:09
  listen to the show to go check out the video version of the
• 1:18:13
  podcast on Spotify and YouTube and you can see glimpses of the
• 1:18:16
  dog. I've been doing the show a
• 1:18:21
  little over four years now almost five years.
• 1:18:24
  It's amazing and my original go. After the show was, I thought I
• 1:18:28
  would do a roundabout 20 episodes because I thought who
• 1:18:32
  could do more than that on d.b. Cooper?
• 1:18:34
  Not even me and my goal like numbers-wise, I thought I would
• 1:18:40
  love it. If I could get 1,000 downloads
• 1:18:43
  total out of those 20 episodes, right?
• 1:18:46
  It would be a success in my book and pretty quickly, it became a
• 1:18:54
  little bit more successful than I thought.
• 1:18:56
  So, At first, I thought the only audience that I have are the 37
• 1:19:01
  people arguing about it online everyday.
• 1:19:04
  I know that they'll listen to it.
• 1:19:06
  Yeah. But I don't know anyone else
• 1:19:09
  that will and I don't really have any sort of means or Avenue
• 1:19:13
  to promote anything other than like my own Facebook page.
• 1:19:19
  In so doing the interviews, I really loved doing it and I've
• 1:19:23
  always sort of fantasized about being a guest on somebody else's
• 1:19:27
  show. I know that sounds like really
• 1:19:30
  goofy or narcissistic, but as it was just a huge radio fan, I
• 1:19:34
  always do. What if I was sitting on the
• 1:19:37
  other side of this interview, I can be so cool.
• 1:19:40
  So I thought. Okay, I'm going to reach out to
• 1:19:42
  a bunch of different podcasts and see if they'll have me on
• 1:19:46
  because I like doing this. And so I reached out to a bunch
• 1:19:49
  of shows and basically no one got back to me except for this
• 1:19:53
  one show that I had actually listened to a bunch of their
• 1:19:55
  episodes mysterious circumstances with Justin Rimmel
• 1:20:01
  and he was like, yeah I'll have you on but if it's no good I'm
• 1:20:06
  not going to air the episode and I thought, okay, that's totally
• 1:20:10
  fair. I accept that 100%.
• 1:20:13
  And I recorded an episode with him and he released it.
• 1:20:19
  I feel like I did a pretty good job and that was the first time
• 1:20:24
  where I had people find my show. That worked like a tickly
• 1:20:29
  looking for something on d.b. Cooper and it gave my show
• 1:20:34
  pretty good bump and so I thought okay this is this is the
• 1:20:37
  way to do it. If I'm going to promote this, I
• 1:20:39
  got to promote it to people who are already listening to
• 1:20:41
  podcasts. So I just started.
• 1:20:45
  Hey any show that'll have me on? I'd love to be a guest and I
• 1:20:49
  love doing it. I've been trying to do the same
• 1:20:52
  lately. I've been totally not as as much
• 1:20:55
  but I tried I've tried going on other people's shows and I
• 1:21:00
  suppose trying to give people a taste of what it's like to To
• 1:21:04
  listen to my show. Listen to me talk.
• 1:21:06
  I mean ultimately, I let my guests talk that's my sort of
• 1:21:09
  thing but ya know growing a podcast is hot.
• 1:21:13
  It's a little bit easier for something like what you're doing
• 1:21:15
  because it's what's a easier, but it's a niche.
• 1:21:17
  It's a specific thing. It's the thing that is a lot of
• 1:21:20
  people can have interest in this.
• 1:21:22
  So this is going to check out even just for curiosity purposes
• 1:21:25
  to know what I mean. Like, oh, this person has talked
• 1:21:26
  about the d.b. Cooper case.
• 1:21:28
  I really I mean to that. But if you're trying to do
• 1:21:30
  something that what I'm doing, right?
• 1:21:31
  It's just straight up the sky. Ian's with people.
• 1:21:34
  It's hard. It's hard thing.
• 1:21:36
  Yeah, I I saw my show get a couple of a couple of bumps from
• 1:21:42
  unrelated things. Like oh cool.
• 1:21:43
  Loki was in not that Marvel Show Low Ki.
• 1:21:48
  Yeah. Did a brief like 20 Soul?
• 1:21:54
  Yes. Yes Beyond our documentary that
• 1:22:04
  came out, it was on BBC and that gave me a little bump.
• 1:22:10
  That's way it, isn't it? That whole, when you're not
• 1:22:12
  releasing an episode thing because I've noticed that like,
• 1:22:15
  I've been releasing loads of episodes lately because I've
• 1:22:18
  just had luckily a massive demand in podcast guests so I've
• 1:22:23
  just been running with it. Like anytime someone's reached
• 1:22:25
  out to me. I'm like yep come on the show,
• 1:22:26
  let's do it. Let's do it.
• 1:22:27
  Let's do a show. Some doing them back to back to
• 1:22:30
  back and it's a lot of work, but I love it.
• 1:22:32
  I do love it. But the numbers the numbers are
• 1:22:36
  very low. They and if anything they keep
• 1:22:39
  getting lower like the last couple of shows I've released
• 1:22:42
  it's like, you know, five use three views, 0, whatever, you
• 1:22:47
  know, and but then like earlier episodes are picking up a lot
• 1:22:53
  more views and I'm just kind of looking at that.
• 1:22:55
  Like, it doesn't make any sense like, wow, but it's, yeah.
• 1:22:59
  And sometimes like Like I know after this little slump, not
• 1:23:03
  slump sorry with way of putting it, I suppose it is some but
• 1:23:08
  after this period where when, I basically stopped having people
• 1:23:13
  on the show and I go back to just having like doing one a
• 1:23:16
  week or whatever the case may be.
• 1:23:21
  I know that they'll be a period where, you know, because
• 1:23:25
  sometimes like I've had instances where I haven't
• 1:23:27
  released anything for two weeks and you notice Codes bump up and
• 1:23:31
  it sometimes I wonder like should I just do it?
• 1:23:34
  Less often, you know and it's weird like knowing what to do
• 1:23:38
  what not to do. Like very very hard because you
• 1:23:41
  want to do as much as you can but different things work and
• 1:23:47
  it's sighs. It's tough trying to build an
• 1:23:49
  audience. I've tried so hard with mine and
• 1:23:53
  I've been doing it'll be two years in July this year and It's
• 1:23:59
  always hard. You just go work it.
• 1:24:00
  I mean you've been doing your show for four years and you've
• 1:24:03
  done so much research even prior to actually doing the show
• 1:24:06
  itself. That's a commitment right there
• 1:24:10
  and it should be applauded and, you know, honestly
• 1:24:13
  congratulations for all the damage, you've achieved like
• 1:24:16
  this amazing stuff and it's good.
• 1:24:18
  It's cool to see another. Another person doing something
• 1:24:21
  that like there, because I have a lot of people on the show that
• 1:24:24
  have different passions, different things they're doing
• 1:24:26
  in life, but School meeting people, when there's that
• 1:24:30
  consistency, you know, other thing they're doing over a long,
• 1:24:34
  long, long period of time, you know, that's even more to me
• 1:24:38
  even more motivational and gives me sort of more hope in what I'm
• 1:24:43
  doing. So yeah, I applaud you for that
• 1:24:46
  really, really awesome stuff. I think the best thing to do for
• 1:24:50
  growing an audience in a podcast is to keep doing it.
• 1:24:53
  Yeah. The people who are still
• 1:24:54
  podcasting are the ones who were still podcasting the People who
• 1:24:58
  aren't are the ones who quit. I've been on 30 shows that did
• 1:25:04
  less than 20 episodes. I know what is that?
• 1:25:08
  But like this, there's a show I won't mention who, but if they
• 1:25:13
  do have a listen to this, guy's you really got a set that
• 1:25:16
  podcast back up. So they got to like, over a
• 1:25:20
  thousand followers on YouTube, right?
• 1:25:22
  Which I've never even been able to do that, you know, all their
• 1:25:26
  episodes were getting thousands of you.
• 1:25:28
  Use. I mean, they were killing it and
• 1:25:30
  they were gracious enough to have me on their show very early
• 1:25:32
  on and it wasn't an interview podcast.
• 1:25:36
  It was just these two dudes like talking about stuff and it was
• 1:25:39
  really cool. You know, they were doing, they
• 1:25:40
  were doing a good job and they were covering interesting topics
• 1:25:45
  and they were killing it, views wise, and then they just stopped
• 1:25:49
  it. And I think I mean I don't know,
• 1:25:51
  I think it was more just they their own lives caught with them
• 1:25:55
  and they just, you know, maybe maybe they will revisit it one
• 1:25:58
  day and Future, who knows? And I hope they do, but it kind
• 1:26:03
  of stunned me because I was like, you know, you can monetize
• 1:26:06
  this and you know, loads of people are listening and like
• 1:26:09
  you're smashing it but then you stuff it.
• 1:26:11
  And then here's my show where, you know, I struggle to get even
• 1:26:16
  just a few people to listen to it and I publish it everywhere.
• 1:26:20
  I promoted everywhere, I bust my ass, like I do, all these clips,
• 1:26:24
  it, it takes a lot of time doing a podcast for anyone that
• 1:26:27
  doesn't know, like, you think. It's like, oh, you just record a
• 1:26:29
  show and that's it. New like, I mean, just this is
• 1:26:33
  put this into perspective for a second, will compare what I do
• 1:26:36
  and then what Darren does. So with what I do, have people
• 1:26:40
  reach out to me or I reach out to them, you had them on the
• 1:26:42
  show, you record the episode, then it comes to editing the
• 1:26:46
  episode, clipping it up doing descriptions for, you know, the
• 1:26:52
  clips and stuff, you're going to do, then the images, which I
• 1:26:55
  keep very rudimentary because I'm not a graphic designer or Of
• 1:27:00
  this whole process. And then, of course, there's the
• 1:27:02
  publishing and in promoting on social media and all of that, in
• 1:27:06
  total takes many, probably two to three hours, I've got it to
• 1:27:10
  give or take. Sometimes there is usually more
• 1:27:15
  all of that for probably something that's not even going
• 1:27:18
  to get past five lessons or views, and you take all of that
• 1:27:23
  for a second. And look at what Darren does,
• 1:27:25
  which is he's doing loads of research.
• 1:27:28
  Search on top of that. Like I do a bit of research,
• 1:27:30
  every guest that I did that, I have on the show and most of the
• 1:27:34
  time I add lived during the probe, the show.
• 1:27:37
  So these questions are more, just kind of like starting
• 1:27:41
  points to get a conversation going.
• 1:27:42
  Potentially, if I get stuck, but mostly I just kind of listen to
• 1:27:45
  the person and just kind of poke them every now and again and
• 1:27:49
  great, you've got something right, but with what you're
• 1:27:52
  doing, it's like a step further because it's like not only is
• 1:27:55
  the research. An integral part of what you're
• 1:27:59
  doing, but it's something you have to keep revisiting.
• 1:28:02
  And if the keep doing and then you have to do research for the
• 1:28:06
  guest you're having on your show on top of that.
• 1:28:09
  And then it's just like, there's so much more work involved and I
• 1:28:15
  kind of remember my my original Point.
• 1:28:16
  Yeah. This is a lot of work involved.
• 1:28:19
  You there is a lot of work involved and most of my guests.
• 1:28:23
  I'd probably 70% of my guests have a book to promote.
• 1:28:27
  And every single one of those, I read the entire book before the
• 1:28:33
  interview. Wow, even the ones that are
• 1:28:36
  horrible and I have read some horrible terrible books that I
• 1:28:40
  would never recommend, but I read the book in its entirety
• 1:28:46
  for their interview amazing just because I feel like that's
• 1:28:51
  that's the only way I could do it for myself, hmm.
• 1:28:55
  And many times I've said I'm not reading I'm not reading another
• 1:28:59
  terrible book but then I end up doing it because, you know, if
• 1:29:03
  it look about d.b. Cooper comes out, I'm going to
• 1:29:06
  read it. I have I've read probably 40
• 1:29:09
  something books on the case at this point in time I have an
• 1:29:13
  incredible collection of d.b. Cooper books.
• 1:29:16
  I'm very proud of, okay, here's my biggest mistake Christian.
• 1:29:20
  If, if there was a way where I could have made money off the
• 1:29:23
  show and it's, I want everyone to know that I pay for this
• 1:29:26
  show. I don't make a dime Off the
• 1:29:28
  Cooper Vortex. I don't need time off of it.
• 1:29:30
  Really I pay. I pay 1499 a month to host my
• 1:29:35
  show. Let's say you have poked being
• 1:29:37
  charged as you doesn't it, but like, yeah, 300,000 downloads,
• 1:29:41
  and you've not seen anything from that.
• 1:29:43
  Last mad. How does what they were sponsors
• 1:29:46
  or something? No, I've even there are a couple
• 1:29:49
  of d.b. Cooper companies.
• 1:29:52
  Like there's a company called d.b.
• 1:29:53
  Cooper appliances in Chehalis. Washington, there's a bar Called
• 1:29:58
  DB Cooper's in Lincoln Nebraska, there is a d.b.
• 1:30:01
  Cooper themed Brewery in Vancouver.
• 1:30:04
  I have reached out to every single one of those companies
• 1:30:07
  and said I will put a free ad in my show for you.
• 1:30:12
  Send me a file or send me a script and I'll read it and put
• 1:30:16
  it in the show. None of those people have gotten
• 1:30:18
  back to me multiple attempts, and I spoke to the owner of the
• 1:30:22
  bar and the brewery. I spoke to the owner of the
• 1:30:27
  d.b., Our appliances and they're both like, yeah.
• 1:30:29
  That seems like a good idea. Yeah, thank you.
• 1:30:32
  And then they just never follow through.
• 1:30:37
  I feel your pain honestly. It's the same thing for my show.
• 1:30:44
  I use anchor as my distribution service, which I think it's
• 1:30:49
  recently been acquired by Spotify.
• 1:30:51
  It's great. I recommend it's a really good
• 1:30:53
  tool. Enables my podcast to be
• 1:30:56
  distributed on a bunch of Forms and up also upload on YouTube.
• 1:31:03
  and, Actually, I don't live in the state's, I live in the UK.
• 1:31:08
  And what for anchor? You can only monetize your
• 1:31:12
  platform. In America and it always has
• 1:31:16
  this little asterisks where it says it will be available in the
• 1:31:21
  in Europe. Like I've tweeted them several
• 1:31:23
  times. Like do it.
• 1:31:24
  When's it going to be made available in Europe.
• 1:31:26
  When can I monetize in Europe? And they're like, oh yeah, we're
• 1:31:28
  working on that both times and then they say, have you tried
• 1:31:31
  pitching it, right? And of course, you know, I don't
• 1:31:35
  have a big listenership if I had like, even just a hundred people
• 1:31:38
  listening regularly, I would, of course picture.
• 1:31:41
  You know, I'm a businessman. Like I know how to pitch things.
• 1:31:44
  And how to, you know, do marketing for a living and such.
• 1:31:47
  So I know how to do this stuff but I've got nothing to pitch.
• 1:31:51
  It's like who wants to support a show that one week gets like
• 1:31:55
  five use another week? Gets 100 views when we get 0 V.
• 1:31:59
  Like that's too unpredictable. That's, that's not a listener
• 1:32:03
  base. That's, you know, don't get me
• 1:32:04
  wrong. I'm not saying there aren't
• 1:32:05
  listening because I know there are and thank you so much for
• 1:32:07
  people that do listen. But the fact of the matter is
• 1:32:10
  it's not consistent. If it were like, even if it were
• 1:32:12
  like 20 people, We week consistently.
• 1:32:15
  That's something you can. You can suggest to people,
• 1:32:19
  right? So that's one aspect to it.
• 1:32:24
  And I remember one, one company, one time reached out to me and
• 1:32:30
  were like, yeah we you know we saw your podcast on YouTube.
• 1:32:32
  We want to sponsor you, bubble bars, like great, brilliant.
• 1:32:36
  And then the like oh can you please show us your views or
• 1:32:39
  listens for the audio version of it and I was like, okay.
• 1:32:45
  Because it confuses like, well, they've asked about the YouTube
• 1:32:47
  version but now they want to know about the audio stuff and I
• 1:32:50
  was like, whatever it won't take me long.
• 1:32:52
  But I did actually spend time like doing mock-ups of images
• 1:32:55
  and graphs, and statistics for that particular point in time,
• 1:33:02
  sent all this stuff to them, they never had the decency to
• 1:33:04
  get back to me, even just to say, no, even just like, if
• 1:33:07
  you're going to reach out to someone, And be like, hey we
• 1:33:10
  would like to support you but an adult and then on a business
• 1:33:14
  sense and then you just dump of go back to them but I'm not
• 1:33:17
  being funny but your business is trash.
• 1:33:19
  If you do that you would like your I'll never work.
• 1:33:22
  Like if this podcast is successful one day and takes off
• 1:33:26
  in the future and that company reaches out, to me, again, best
• 1:33:29
  believe I'm going to be ignoring you because it's just like,
• 1:33:33
  that's not accept, that's that's so unprofessional, you know?
• 1:33:35
  And like those instances you gave of those Of of those
• 1:33:39
  companies that, you know said, oh, yes.
• 1:33:41
  They're going to get back to you and then they don't, it's like,
• 1:33:45
  come on, man. Like, I mean, you were, you were
• 1:33:47
  offering to do it for free? Yeah.
• 1:33:49
  Because I wanted the idea that there was a d.b.
• 1:33:51
  Cooper themed business to be advertising on the show.
• 1:33:54
  I didn't care about you know, the 50 dollars that they would
• 1:33:57
  have given me or whatever. The number was I had a try.
• 1:34:03
  Be vague about this okay. I had a podcast Network Reach
• 1:34:09
  out to me and was like, hey we want you to be an exclusive on
• 1:34:13
  this network. Yeah.
• 1:34:14
  And instead of like offering me money or this is what you'll get
• 1:34:19
  in the future, their pitch was you'll get more listeners if you
• 1:34:23
  become exclusive to this. Now, I that just doesn't make
• 1:34:27
  sense to me at all. And I really like, okay, no, I
• 1:34:33
  had this movie company. Production company, I should
• 1:34:39
  say, okay, I talked with them for a while and it was sort of
• 1:34:45
  serious they wanted, but they ended up was like, they wanted
• 1:34:51
  me to turn my show into a series and then they would take that
• 1:34:58
  and then go sell it. And I was like, I'm already
• 1:35:02
  doing that on my own. Why would I need you?
• 1:35:06
  You and and I mean, I see you're doing video but I don't do video
• 1:35:12
  because I only care about the medium of radio.
• 1:35:15
  The spoken word I'm like this old timey romantic for it.
• 1:35:20
  I love it, I absolutely love radio.
• 1:35:22
  And you know, maybe it's, I have a face for radio.
• 1:35:25
  So that's why instead of being on YouTube or something.
• 1:35:30
  You look, fantastic. So don't worry.
• 1:35:33
  Now, I get what you mean. There is some magic to it and
• 1:35:36
  sometimes And I have this back to my podcast, just just to hear
• 1:35:40
  how it sounds audio version like it it almost creates like a
• 1:35:44
  different vibe like not being able to see the people in a way
• 1:35:49
  creates a different vibe and Larry King famously said.
• 1:35:54
  If you are watching a show and they hand to the castle up on
• 1:35:59
  the hill you're looking at it? That's a castle.
• 1:36:02
  Somebody designed to look a specific way.
• 1:36:05
  You're seeing there? Vision of a castle.
• 1:36:07
  Yeah. If you're listening to the radio
• 1:36:09
  and they say and then the Hero Walks up the long drive to the
• 1:36:12
  castle, on the hill. You imagine a castle on the
• 1:36:16
  hill, it's your castle. That's incredible.
• 1:36:20
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's perfect.
• 1:36:25
  Yeah, I think the Same can be said for books as well just in
• 1:36:31
  reading a book versus watching a film, you know, it's up to your
• 1:36:35
  imagination and US humans have incredible imaginations.
• 1:36:38
  You know I mean we've we've demonstrated that with this
• 1:36:41
  conversation today, as far as like, the various different
• 1:36:45
  creative ways that people come up with, how things can can
• 1:36:50
  transpire, how how how this mysterious figure could have
• 1:36:55
  gotten away of this crime and everything in between.
• 1:36:58
  So it's yeah. The power of the imagination is
• 1:37:00
  an incredible thing. Do you like listening to your
• 1:37:03
  own show? No, it sound of my own voice.
• 1:37:08
  I like listening to my own show, okay, because it really is the
• 1:37:12
  show I created. So like, when I listen to, if
• 1:37:15
  the finished episode before it goes out, I usually love it.
• 1:37:19
  I'm like, this is a great episode is amazing, but when I
• 1:37:24
  hear myself laugh, it makes me sick to my stomach.
• 1:37:28
  Yeah. This is what I mean.
• 1:37:29
  Like, I, I too. I like the satisfaction of
• 1:37:33
  listening back what I do when I'm editing.
• 1:37:35
  I listen back. And if it's been a really,
• 1:37:37
  really good show, I'm obviously, like really proud of it and I'm
• 1:37:39
  like, yeah, this is good. I'm proud of this, fantastic.
• 1:37:42
  It reaffirms my belief in why I'm doing this, you know, of
• 1:37:47
  course. But yeah, those little things
• 1:37:49
  that our insecurities about ourselves come out and I'm just
• 1:37:52
  like, oh, my stupid face. And that's laugh, and just like,
• 1:37:58
  you know, But that's just being human and it's it's just like
• 1:38:03
  you could find a thousand things that no one will ever find.
• 1:38:07
  And that they'll probably find you very pleasant.
• 1:38:09
  Maybe they hate you, who cares? But like it's just subjective
• 1:38:13
  isn't it's just I think it always comes down to Passion at
• 1:38:17
  the end of the day. That's the most important thing,
• 1:38:19
  and you definitely have passion in what you do.
• 1:38:21
  And it's amazing to see got final couple questions for you.
• 1:38:25
  Before we wrap things up, completely different, not
• 1:38:27
  related to d.b. Cooper.
• 1:38:30
  This is just all about you, what's the best advice you've
• 1:38:33
  ever received? The best advice I ever received.
• 1:38:38
  I feel like I should have an answer to that at the ready.
• 1:38:42
  You should have a cue card next to you.
• 1:38:45
  But what what do they call them? Not Q cut.
• 1:38:49
  Oh gosh. I just think those old business
• 1:38:52
  presentations that you do, you know, when they like old, have
• 1:38:55
  yourself some notes, don't PowerPoint.
• 1:38:57
  Yeah. Yeah, not Pat but like, flash
• 1:38:59
  cards. Oh yes.
• 1:39:03
  Yeah I really do. I really don't know what the
• 1:39:08
  best advice I received. I guess that means I've never
• 1:39:11
  received amazing advice before. So I substituted hey no worries,
• 1:39:17
  no worries. Well, forgetting advice for a
• 1:39:21
  second. I guarantee of a question to
• 1:39:25
  answer to this question. What's the biggest life lesson
• 1:39:30
  you've learned so far? Wow, that's a deep question.
• 1:39:37
  It's my favorite question. I would say the biggest life
• 1:39:40
  lesson that I've learned is do the work.
• 1:39:42
  Mmm do the work especially something that doesn't take very
• 1:39:47
  long. I'm a big fan of getting things
• 1:39:51
  done by David Allen yeah David Allen.
• 1:39:53
  Yeah, that book sort of changed the way I work change the way we
• 1:40:00
  respond to emails and inquiries things like that, do the work.
• 1:40:07
  Would be my advice, you could do whatever you want but it usually
• 1:40:12
  has a lot of work associated with it.
• 1:40:14
  If you want to have a great amazing podcast or something, or
• 1:40:20
  a YouTube channel, do the work and and get it done.
• 1:40:26
  Done is always better than perfect if you're chasing
• 1:40:30
  perfection in your project, you're going about it.
• 1:40:34
  The wrong way, set a deadline. Line get it done by the deadline
• 1:40:39
  and then don't wonder, you know, if I would have changed this or
• 1:40:42
  that, or if I would have added this it would have been a little
• 1:40:45
  bit better. Move on to your next project and
• 1:40:49
  get to work. Solid solid stuff.
• 1:40:53
  Thank you so much for sharing. As we draw things to a close for
• 1:40:56
  today. Do you have any upcoming
• 1:40:58
  projects or some final thoughts you'd like to share with our
• 1:41:00
  listeners? Hell yeah, I started another
• 1:41:03
  podcast. Oh, Come the book of Darren so I
• 1:41:09
  love doing interviews. I've interviewed 50-something,
• 1:41:12
  people about d.b. Cooper.
• 1:41:14
  Cool, and I enjoy doing that. I'd like to say I'm going to
• 1:41:17
  quit the Cooper Vortex and move on but But I really can't do
• 1:41:21
  that. I was gonna say too much a part
• 1:41:25
  of me. I really do.
• 1:41:26
  Like I check the forums before my head hits the pillow at
• 1:41:29
  night. Really if I'm waiting in line
• 1:41:32
  somewhere, I pull my phone out it's not Facebook or Twitter.
• 1:41:36
  I'm going to I'm going to the d.b.
• 1:41:38
  Cooper Forum in the drop zone. Cool because I'm an insane human
• 1:41:42
  being. But the new show the book of
• 1:41:45
  Darren. It's The most interesting people
• 1:41:48
  and guests. According to me, just people I
• 1:41:52
  wanted to talk to and interview if I would have reached out to
• 1:41:56
  had been my not on the show if how to reach out to him.
• 1:41:58
  Hey, can I talk to you on the phone for two hours?
• 1:42:02
  He wouldn't even respond to that, but if I say, hey will you
• 1:42:05
  be on my podcast? Then select.
• 1:42:07
  Yeah, now I'll talk to you for two hours.
• 1:42:11
  So I'm going to keep doing that. No, no, best best of luck with
• 1:42:16
  that. I mean, And I can tell what, but
• 1:42:17
  I think the most important thing and I've said this both on the
• 1:42:21
  actual show before and also just people in real life you know if
• 1:42:24
  you're gonna do a podcast be a good be willing to have
• 1:42:29
  conversation. I think that's key and that's
• 1:42:31
  something you're definitely willing to do not just because
• 1:42:34
  you're passionate about this thing, this this case of d.b.
• 1:42:36
  Cooper but also just in general you know it's every time I've
• 1:42:40
  ever appeared on someone else show I've always made sure to be
• 1:42:44
  very chatty. And sometimes, you know, I got,
• 1:42:47
  there was one show I read on recently, where I felt like, I
• 1:42:48
  went to hijack their show because I spoke too much some
• 1:42:51
  trying to get that balance, right?
• 1:42:53
  But, you know, yeah, be there show up, you know, talk a lot
• 1:42:56
  and be engaged in what you do. And people are going to resonate
• 1:42:59
  with that. And I think it's great news to
• 1:43:01
  my ears to hear that you're doing something else.
• 1:43:04
  Is it going to be just not related to d.b.
• 1:43:07
  Cooper atolls? You just going to be like your
• 1:43:08
  own thing? Just general conversations or is
• 1:43:11
  it still in the coupe of us? My guests will usually bring up
• 1:43:16
  d.b. Cooper.
• 1:43:17
  I said, okay, time and and I'll talk about it.
• 1:43:20
  My first guest was Chris Williamson, who did that Amelia
• 1:43:23
  Earhart series cool and like our paths are exactly parallel.
• 1:43:28
  It's just the topic is a little bit different and really, really
• 1:43:34
  glad to meet him in the last two years.
• 1:43:37
  I've been my not, he's a YouTuber who does eclectic and
• 1:43:41
  absurd me. Media from the 80s and 90s and
• 1:43:45
  on had him on to talk about Max Headroom.
• 1:43:50
  But it's just People, I wanted to talk to interesting.
• 1:43:56
  Interesting topics. Interesting guests at about like
• 1:43:59
  being on other podcast. You know, you it's a
• 1:44:02
  performance. You have to be on finger if you
• 1:44:05
  and I are sitting at a bar, my Cadence will probably be a
• 1:44:09
  little bit different as would yours be.
• 1:44:11
  I'm not looking to start talking the second you stop talking, the
• 1:44:16
  key thing, I've noticed because actually, this podcast is made
• 1:44:18
  me a better conversation this time real life, but there is A
• 1:44:21
  key difference, you're right. You are putting on a bit of a
• 1:44:24
  performance but you know what, some of the best conversations I
• 1:44:27
  have in life are similar to these Chats on a show.
• 1:44:30
  The only difference being that you're not talking to an
• 1:44:33
  audience whenever I ask questions on this showroom
• 1:44:37
  listing or whatever. I do on this show are very
• 1:44:39
  cognizant of the fact that there is an audience listening.
• 1:44:43
  Whereas when you're sitting down with your buddy, at a bar or
• 1:44:46
  whatever energy, you know, you're not, they don't have to
• 1:44:50
  answer straight away, you can Periods where no one says
• 1:44:53
  anything. Like there's there's different
• 1:44:55
  there's always different rules. That's I think that's the key,
• 1:44:58
  isn't it is different rules because I like to try and be as
• 1:45:00
  authentic as possible within the confines of what we're doing.
• 1:45:04
  But yeah there is a performance element to it.
• 1:45:07
  Like I wouldn't be able to just sit here and just so what do you
• 1:45:10
  think about this and that there are shows like that that exists
• 1:45:14
  and I don't I just don't think that's good enough personally.
• 1:45:21
  You know, maybe that's controversial to say, but I
• 1:45:23
  think all any podcast requires you to have some degree of
• 1:45:27
  energy, you know, there are different ways that podcast can
• 1:45:30
  be carried out, much in the same way as radio, but you have to
• 1:45:34
  have energy. You have to show up.
• 1:45:36
  Like you can't just be like half-assed about it because that
• 1:45:40
  just makes for a terrible listening experience or a
• 1:45:42
  terrible viewing experience because you can, especially,
• 1:45:46
  especially if you've got one person that's really trying and
• 1:45:48
  the other person, It's like, oh, yeah, that's the worst.
• 1:45:53
  Why do you have this co-host that just sits there?
• 1:45:56
  Oh yeah. Oh yeah, Harry.
• 1:45:57
  What do you have to say? Gary see II was just thinking of
• 1:46:01
  just like someone who has like a bad guest or something or bad
• 1:46:04
  host or something, but that's a very good point.
• 1:46:06
  When you've got, like a co-host, it's just like like I think of
• 1:46:10
  this podcast, I won't name it but there's a pretty, it's now
• 1:46:14
  ended because the podcast didn't, it was terrible but but
• 1:46:17
  what what would happened was it was a beloved YouTuber who his
• 1:46:24
  channel is, just gone to new levels of depravity over the
• 1:46:28
  years. It's just not as good as it once
• 1:46:29
  was. You know?
• 1:46:30
  And one of the biggest reasons that people point to that for
• 1:46:34
  happening, is the fact that it was acquired by this company
• 1:46:38
  this production company and ever since then they get what they're
• 1:46:42
  supposed to be helping this person and making it easier for
• 1:46:45
  him to create content. But actually they've made it
• 1:46:49
  several times worse since Our influence has been fell and at
• 1:46:53
  some point someone through the idea of doing a podcast.
• 1:46:57
  Now, people come to this particular YouTube channel for
• 1:47:00
  this specific guy, not for these other guys are these other guys
• 1:47:04
  have popped up in this guy's videos here in there, but like,
• 1:47:07
  he's the true, he's the main event, he's the attraction and
• 1:47:09
  the stuff he creates and his passion, that's what people come
• 1:47:12
  there for. So when you see this podcast,
• 1:47:15
  right, and you see these two guys sitting there and they're
• 1:47:18
  leading it and You know, one of them sort of like half engaged,
• 1:47:22
  the leader is kind of like asking questions but not really
• 1:47:25
  listening, which is that is one of the most frustrating things I
• 1:47:29
  have. I'm just going to go a little
• 1:47:30
  bit of a rant here so bear with me.
• 1:47:33
  But yeah, listen to your guests. Listen, don't cut them off, you
• 1:47:38
  know, and don't get me wrong. I've I've been guilty of that in
• 1:47:40
  the past and I've worked on that.
• 1:47:41
  But whenever I've cut people off its to ask them a follow-up
• 1:47:45
  question or two like because I'm engaged in the conversation,
• 1:47:48
  it's never. Oh I just want to talk Up this
• 1:47:51
  thing. It's no, I wanna.
• 1:47:53
  I'm so engaged in this, I want to know this and I get giddy,
• 1:47:56
  but I remember that. It's a conversations.
• 1:47:58
  You got to be polite and let it unfold and kind of pick your
• 1:48:03
  moment to kind of guide it. But this particular instance,
• 1:48:06
  I'm talking about the guy that was your main attraction was
• 1:48:11
  barely, barely involved is kind of like yeah, uh-huh.
• 1:48:15
  Yeah, maybe. And sometimes you get some good
• 1:48:17
  stuff out of him and whatnot, but the, the two Guys.
• 1:48:20
  Running it like I mean what can you say Really they just they
• 1:48:26
  shouldn't have done a podcast. I don't think a podcast is for
• 1:48:28
  everyone. I know it's a very popular form
• 1:48:32
  of content to create and to do but you know, it takes a hell of
• 1:48:37
  a lot of planning and Fellow research and I'm just speaking
• 1:48:43
  the lessons. I know you know this but it's
• 1:48:45
  it's you got to think about these things, you know, and you
• 1:48:47
  got trial different things. It took me a while to work out,
• 1:48:50
  what my format was, what my structure was.
• 1:48:52
  And because at first I thought I was just going to kind of share
• 1:48:56
  stories with other people and just kind of banter a bit or I
• 1:48:59
  don't know interview them a little bit but I don't know.
• 1:49:02
  I was still figuring it out but then it clicked like know.
• 1:49:06
  I should explore these people's lives but show interest in be
• 1:49:09
  engaged. Aged try to ask the right
• 1:49:11
  questions, occasionally share stories in an effort to connect
• 1:49:14
  and sometimes it will be a back and like every episode is
• 1:49:17
  different. Like that's the deal with my
• 1:49:20
  show is its some episodes. It's just all about that other
• 1:49:23
  person and I just guide it sometimes I'm the one guiding it
• 1:49:27
  because the other person is a bit quieter and I've got a kind
• 1:49:29
  of push a bit more and that's fine and sometimes it is just
• 1:49:33
  back and forth and you see where it goes but the point is it's
• 1:49:38
  different every time and Different because I'm focused on
• 1:49:41
  how my guest is. And letting them kind of lead
• 1:49:46
  it, not take control but, you know, you would just accordingly
• 1:49:50
  just like you would in real life in a real life conversation, you
• 1:49:54
  know. And I think that's key is
• 1:49:55
  looking at it like that like adjusting to the people that you
• 1:49:58
  have in your show still trying to achieve your goal,
• 1:50:02
  ultimately, but adjusting to them rather than trying to force
• 1:50:06
  on them. Your idea of how this
• 1:50:08
  conversations would go. You know, I think that's that's
• 1:50:11
  very well said, you know, I sort of do the same thing.
• 1:50:14
  And I'll have written down, sort of a road map of where I want
• 1:50:17
  the interview to go. It's going to start here and
• 1:50:19
  they're going to weave over here and then finish over there.
• 1:50:22
  And you know, they'll say something in the middle like
• 1:50:24
  you. Oh yeah.
• 1:50:25
  And then this happened and whoa, tell me that part again and
• 1:50:31
  that's something, you know, I don't want to say I'm great at
• 1:50:35
  it but it's something I've definitely gotten a lot better
• 1:50:37
  at in the last few years is sort of Doing a better job, listening
• 1:50:43
  realizing where they're going and realizing where I want this
• 1:50:47
  to go and sometimes you have a guest where it just throws you
• 1:50:51
  completely off. They change topics mid-sentence
• 1:50:54
  and like, okay enough about the Braves.
• 1:50:57
  Let's go back to this d.b. Cooper thing as ha.
• 1:51:01
  That's a hard one, i-i've done my best to kind of move around
• 1:51:05
  that but It's Tricky. Being able to navigate that
• 1:51:09
  because you don't be rude and sometimes what they're saying is
• 1:51:12
  gold but at the same time, yeah. Like you might have like, like,
• 1:51:15
  if the pot off the whole show is about say d.b.
• 1:51:18
  Cooper or a particular topic. It's like, should we really be
• 1:51:22
  talking about this thing? I suppose I could clip it but,
• 1:51:24
  you know, then I don't know. And it's just, it's hard knowing
• 1:51:28
  what the right or wrong thing is to do in these instances.
• 1:51:31
  But, you know, I think you kind of just have to call it as you
• 1:51:36
  see it to some extent, you know what I mean.
• 1:51:38
  Just just go with the flow and I suppose the power of editing as
• 1:51:42
  it may enables you to kind of get around that little bit
• 1:51:44
  whereas I think we have definitely as thing I
• 1:51:47
  exclusively don't edit because I am lazy and be I like the idea
• 1:51:51
  of like a kind of conversation where there are arms and ours
• 1:51:55
  and it's is something you're listening to that's almost like,
• 1:51:59
  it's not even like you're listening to the classic
• 1:52:02
  sensible podcast you're listening to.
• 1:52:05
  It's like you're a fly on the wall listening in on a
• 1:52:07
  conversation but It's a structured conversation.
• 1:52:10
  You see I've done I've done 60 something episodes and there are
• 1:52:18
  probably a half dozen times. I can remember each one
• 1:52:22
  specifically where the guests. Either went too long or Too
• 1:52:29
  Short, or said something off topic and it just completely
• 1:52:32
  threw me and then the guest stops talking and their silence.
• 1:52:36
  And I'm like, trying to collect myself.
• 1:52:38
  Where was I, where are we going? And it's like, so embarrassing.
• 1:52:43
  I feel like, oh, I'm so stupid. I don't, I can't even think of
• 1:52:46
  the question. But I had, you know, I have 17
• 1:52:49
  questions down here but now, any of these are going to be wildly
• 1:52:53
  off topic now. So, That that's where editing
• 1:52:57
  definitely saves me. Where I can look a little bit
• 1:52:59
  smarter than I actually am. Yeah, no, I know what you mean.
• 1:53:03
  Like I have really rely on ad-libbing by always have the
• 1:53:06
  questions in front of me as a kind of a guy like I mentioned
• 1:53:09
  earlier. But one thing I've done, just in
• 1:53:11
  case is to have a sheet of generic questions.
• 1:53:16
  I've never really used it but there's some generic questions.
• 1:53:19
  Some of them I do ask like I've asked you some of them which is
• 1:53:22
  best advice, biggest life lesson, but I just think those
• 1:53:24
  are good questions because everyone has a different answer
• 1:53:27
  and I don't know I just I just like those questions but there
• 1:53:31
  are Right. Yeah.
• 1:53:32
  Right. And there but there are some
• 1:53:34
  like a sheep that I wrote, which is really useful.
• 1:53:38
  If you've got someone who, you genuinely don't know what to ask
• 1:53:41
  them and this happens sometimes more often that you see anyone.
• 1:53:45
  Listen to this. Now that's a podcast.
• 1:53:46
  You getting a podcast in masterclass.
• 1:53:48
  So I hope you're enjoying this and listening.
• 1:53:52
  It's good to have some Reserve questions stuff for when you're
• 1:53:54
  just stumped because sometimes you won't have a lot of
• 1:53:57
  questions prepared because there's just not a lot to go on.
• 1:54:01
  Maybe. There's not a lot of information
• 1:54:02
  about this person maybe there's just not a lot of questions.
• 1:54:05
  You can ask or interesting questions like it's one thing to
• 1:54:09
  be like so what's this job like or what's your favorite thing
• 1:54:13
  about this? But that doesn't really inspire
• 1:54:15
  people, what you need is something that's going to get to
• 1:54:18
  the heart of it. You know, like today.
• 1:54:21
  My thought process was, is this something that this obviously,
• 1:54:25
  the person's really passionate about it, but can you get a
• 1:54:28
  whole conversation out of this? Or is it going to be?
• 1:54:30
  That's One part of the interview and the rest is focused on them
• 1:54:33
  outside. It just so happens.
• 1:54:35
  We've had a massive conversation about this and it's and it's
• 1:54:38
  been really enjoyable and that's how it's gone and just the same
• 1:54:41
  as you mentioned that you sort of roll with it and see how it
• 1:54:44
  goes. I do the same thing.
• 1:54:45
  I focus in on certain things. I try to fixate on certain
• 1:54:49
  things that the guest is doing and, and I make that my focus,
• 1:54:53
  but I sigh some predictable, it really is but it's a journey and
• 1:55:00
  and we're always trying to get better.
• 1:55:02
  But anyway, I just want to say a massive, thank you for being on
• 1:55:05
  the show. It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:55:07
  I wish you the best of luck with this new podcast that you're
• 1:55:10
  doing and obviously I think you should get a definitely.
• 1:55:12
  Never never stop this this Cooper Vortex.
• 1:55:15
  Sure. I think it's a great concept and
• 1:55:19
  I think there's you know, you're always going to find new
• 1:55:21
  questions as the time goes on. There's always going to be more
• 1:55:24
  questions to ask in that regard. Oh yeah.
• 1:55:26
  The d.b. Cooper.
• 1:55:27
  Seems to be solved by somebody else every year, too.
• 1:55:32
  Everyone's got the odds, massive, thank you for being on
• 1:55:36
  the show and to all the listeners of the Christian we've
• 1:55:38
  podcast. As always be safe.
• 1:55:41
  Be well, and I'll see you in the next one.