Latest / The Two Authors’ Podcast / Editing and Mindset with Jen Graybeal

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Editing and Mindset with Jen Graybeal · The Two Authors’ Podcast

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  Even if you write a hundred, I think that's true.
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  - I was gonna say, I hear her saying that,
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  don't worry Doug, your next book might be good.
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  This is what I hear.
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  (laughing)
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  - There's still a chance, Doug.
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  - There's still a chance.
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  - There's still a chance.
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  (laughing)
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  - Welcome to the Two Authors podcast,
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  an entertaining chat show hosted by best selling mystery
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  and thriller authors, Douglas Pratt and Nicholas Harvey
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  in lively, humorous and informative conversation
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  with distinguished guests who share their thoughts
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  experience about forging a successful author career.
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  Welcome to this week's show brought to you as always by Vellum, the best formatting solution
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  in the whole galaxy.
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  The fantabulous bestest.
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  The fantabulous bestest.
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  So I'm surprised they let us write anything.
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  I tell you what, we make upwards all day long.
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  Well, one of the things I love about them is that you can use their little buttons and
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  they update their buttons for social media profiles all the time.
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  They just added a sub stack because I got sub stacks new now.
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  So they got to add the new stuff.
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  So pretty neat.
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  I think as they come more into the author universe,
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  sub stacks been around for a long time,
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  but it's being used more and more.
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  And they listen, right?
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  So people ask for it.
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  Go, hey, can you link to my sub stack?
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  Enough people asked.
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  Yep.
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  Bang, it's in there.
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  What do you use?
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  What do you link to in the--
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  Oh, well, I've got Facebook.
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  I've got--
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  Instagram.
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  I've got Facebook.
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  I've got Patreon, Instagram.
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  You're a talker.
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  You're a tiktoker.
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  or whatever you call them.
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  - We got TikTok on there, yeah.
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  One of these days, when you start your new social media
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  platform called the Nickers,
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  I'm gonna put that in there as my--
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  (laughing)
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  - I love it.
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  I'm gonna have a platform.
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  Come join me on Nickers.
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  - On Nickers, come get my Nickers.
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  No, I think that what they do is great
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  and the brands are so on top of it,
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  they just like you said, they're listening to,
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  if you have an issue, they're listening
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  and that's why they make these changes.
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  Also a big thank you to our Patreon supporters.
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  And if you guys feel like you're getting a value
• 1:54
  show, please support us over at patreon.com/thetodethoothorspodcast and we have lots of cool extras in there.
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  Tons of bonus questions, all sorts of fun, great stuff. And today we got a great guest.
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  We got a gin graybill who is a certified creativity coach and I'm pretty sure I can use some creativity
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  coaching. Oh, you're pretty creative. I'd like to learn how to coach creatively. That's
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  what I need. No, she's actually a, she's a developmental editor. She is a super smart
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  lady, smarter than we are and a coach that she's done. She's helped like, I couldn't
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  even tell you how many of them, but let's just say a metric ton of authors come up with
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  build their craft, come up with new marketing ideas and businesses. So it's going to be
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  exciting to talk to her. And we're going to chat with her after a listener question from
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  our recent guest and good friend, DP Lyle.
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  All right. Thanks for sticking around for our listener question, which is brought to
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  was by the ever smart D.P. Lyle, my second favorite dog in the universe.
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  So he's actually my favorite.
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  I can I don't blame you.
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  My wife made him an author nation.
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  She goes, I like him better too.
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  So that's not the same much really.
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  So your wife is very smart.
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  She is very smart.
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  Although she married me.
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  I was going to say.
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  Forteced in Noah.
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  Otherwise she's.
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  So Doug, do you have a question for us today?
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  Sure.
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  I mean, uh, you know, it's writing obviously is a very lonely profession
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  where you sit in a dark room in your pajamas and kill people all day.
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  And, and, but yet you guys not only do that, but you also collaborate on, on works.
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  And so co-authoring stuff together is a little tricky and it's a lot like a marriage.
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  There's give and take and there's good and there's bad and there's hills and
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  there's valleys and there's all that stuff.
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  What is the best thing about collaborating on a novel
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  and what are the problem steps
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  that you would tell people to avoid?
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  - The best thing is,
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  it's kind of like brings out the best in what I'm doing
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  because every time Nick writes something and I'm like,
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  well, shit, that's really good.
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  Now the next part's gotta be mine,
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  so I gotta make it better
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  and try to be a little more extravagant or just something
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  to keep the story going.
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  Because we're both, you know, make such a great writing.
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  His story just flow really well.
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  And you get to the end, I'm like, OK, great.
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  I got to jump in and do the same thing and keep it up.
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  So I think that helps keep us--
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  and I think Nick probably said the same thing.
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  It helps us kind of keep that flow going.
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  So we're always like, oh, that was really great.
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  And then I'll read his passage.
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  And I'm like, OK, this is perfect.
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  And then immediately start thinking halfway through
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  as I'm reading what he's written.
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  And I'm already thinking, okay, I can't wait for my character,
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  because we each have our own characters
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  that we run their POVs from.
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  So I can't wait for my character to react.
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  And how is that gonna happen?
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  And so I'm already like working that problem
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  before I even get through it.
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  So I kind of start anticipating how it's going.
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  So for me, that's exciting.
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  It's like being really in the story,
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  'cause I don't necessarily know how he's doing it.
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  But as far as problems,
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  I'm probably the bigger problem here.
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  But look, I think the biggest thing you can do
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  is just remove that ego.
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  And I think we say that a lot is, is know that, hey, we're going to end up focusing on the story and not really, you know, bashing each other.
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  So neither one of us come in and go, hey, you're writing is stupid.
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  This is a stupid idea.
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  So we just kind of keep the flow going.
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  So good answers.
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  I'd say that the pleasurable part or the most pleasurable part is you think about, you know, issues and analogy.
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  You stand on the cliff top and look at a beautiful sunset out there and you're on your own.
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  The sunset's gorgeous, but there's nothing like having somebody else there that you know
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  and respect and love and you share it with the right.
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  For me.
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  For me.
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  You have it.
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  And all dug.
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  And all dug.
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  But just doing something together with someone you've got a lot of respect for and you're
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  enjoying it together.
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  It's so much more pleasure when the two of you are collaborating on it.
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  I think that's the best upside for me.
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  And I think the biggest problem between Doug and I
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  in writing is time.
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  We have a bad habit of overcommitting ourselves
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  to our own projects and to other projects.
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  And like right now, we've got our fourth book
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  in our CoLab series ready to roll in terms of--
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  we've kind of plotted it out, and we've got ideas,
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  and we're ready to go, and we're dying to do it.
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  And our readers are begging for it.
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  They want another book.
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  And just carving out the time to squeeze it in
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  Everything else good question Doug good answer. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for a listener question
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  Welcome to show Jenny. It is so great to have you here with us. Thank you so much for inviting me guys
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  I'm excited to chat with you people say that when they first come on
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  We'll check back later
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  All the people who go yeah, we're good next time. Yeah, we ask you to come back
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  We're not busy that day.
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  So it's kind of just what it is.
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  So no, it's great to have you.
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  I think we'll have a time.
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  So why don't you guys just kind of get started.
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  Tell us a little bit about your background, which you kind of do in the publishing world
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  and how you help the workshops.
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  So I'm a certified creativity coach.
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  And there's not very many of us out here.
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  But what that means is that I work with creative professionals.
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  The authors, the, you know, performers and artists and those folks have a very
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  similar type of work environment and that they do a lot of work ethic.
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  And I was like, yeah, it's all about the gigs, right?
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  It's one book at a time.
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  It is one piece at a time.
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  And so that's a very different type of a career coach than what a lot of people do.
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  And so I tell people that I work with authors on their books, business and
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  mindset because there's a for a lot of indie authors.
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  There's very few lines in between there, right?
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  you write a book. And I was a developmental editor for about 11 years. And so if there
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  are story issues or things that you want to talk about, you can't quite figure out how
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  to write your story, then we can talk about that and get pretty deep into the, not only
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  the mechanics, but also the emotional engagement, the emotional side of what that story needs
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  to be, pick up some themes, those kinds of things, and how to execute those on the page.
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  But then you write the book, super excited about the book and then the book doesn't
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  So very quickly, those coaching calls moved very quickly into marketing calls.
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  How do I market this?
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  What do I talk about?
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  How do I put this out there in the world so that people see it?
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  And regardless of whether you are doing a lot of writing, not as much writing as you
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  want to do, selling a lot, not selling a lot, a lot of folks kind of run into a mindset
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  issue of how do I continue doing this?
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  Is it worth it?
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  Am I burning myself out?
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  I don't know if I have another book in me and that's scary.
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  So we can talk about a lot of those kinds of things as well as the words won't come.
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  I don't have any words left and I don't know what to do about that.
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  So we can have those conversations and really figure out how to get you back, how to get
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  you back in touch with your creativity, how to get you back in touch with those stories
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  that you want to be telling.
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  So when I talk to folks, my goal is always that you leave a session with me having more
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  clarity than when you arrive.
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  You know what your next step is going to be.
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  Sometimes those steps feel like one centimeter at a time, but yeah, you're going to know
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  what your next step is.
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  Well, I mean, trying to find those words sometimes is a challenge. I thought maybe you were hiding them, so.
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  So I have a question. So you work with a lot of different creatives, not just authors. Do you find
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  the challenges for the individuals in that creative environment are basically similar type things?
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  Yeah, a lot of it is really similar. So to be clear, the majority of my clients are
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  majority of my clients are authors. I have some screenwriter friends that I work with as well, but.
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  and a juggler. Please tell me you coach a juggler.
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  One juggler, one magician, one train.
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  I need to know how you would coach a juggler first of all. It's basically just...
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  You've got to look him in the eyes. That's the first thing. Don't look at the balls.
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  Don't look at the balls, Doug. Look them in the eyes.
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  You know, the real challenge is the mime. The real challenge.
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  You know what? That's not funny. My grandfather's a deaf mime. It was really terrible.
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  Oh my gosh.
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  That's like throwing us off. Okay, Matt, where were we?
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  The question. Okay. So the question was similarities. Similarities between different types of creatives,
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  but mostly between different types of authors. I started out, I worked almost exclusively with
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  romance authors. I was able to find a romance writers of America chapter that met about two
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  miles from my house. And so that's where I really kind of found a community. I found folks that I
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  could talk to you about the books that I loved. And as my business grew, what I found is that
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  while there's a lot about the writing pieces that might be very similar or might be very exclusive
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  to the romance genre, a lot of the more general writing advice applies, you know, to 80, 90%
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  of the authors that are out there, right? When we talk about creating an emotional story, you as a
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  as a thriller, you guys both write thrillers.
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  So you have to be able to create certain emotions
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  in your reader so that they have the experience
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  that they wanna have in reading your books, right?
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  We don't want them to just be flat.
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  Everything has to,
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  you wanna put those people on a roller coaster.
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  And the emotions that you're pulling from those readers
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  are gonna be a bit different sometimes
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  than what you might find in a suspense novel
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  or in a sci-fi novel or in a romance novel.
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  There's gonna be, you know,
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  you're pulling at different emotions,
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  but it's still that job of really putting people through their paces so that they remember
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  the feeling that you have created for them.
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  I think that's really what people chase.
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  Stories are really great, but they chase that feeling.
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  They remember the feeling that you gave them.
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  I think it goes back to the characters.
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  That's why a lot of readers love and get so involved with the characters more so than
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  for us than the mystery.
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  They're like, "Yeah, we'd like to know who killed them, but really I just want to know
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  what are they doing right now?
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  What's the investigator doing?"
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  Yeah.
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  at the end of the day. Yeah, it's the characters they come back for, right?
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  How do they tackle those challenges? How do they tackle the interpersonal relationships? How do
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  they tackle the, you know, how do they keep their crusty exteriors as you as you introduce them to
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  more and more people that makes them want to that makes them want to stay?
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  So next question is how do I do that? I've got 30 something. I've got a little bit of an idea.
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  That may not be great, but at least I got an idea. But if I were as an emerging author who's
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  who's looking at this from a craft standpoint. And a lot of times, you know, if I went back and
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  looked at my first book, and I tell people all the time, "Don't read my first book, it's absolute
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  garbage." But it is interesting. Like, it doesn't have the same emotional tug. And so, what is it
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  that we, if we were a novice author, should be looking at and thinking about to get that across?
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  You know, the first thing you want to do is get the story on the page, right all the way to the end.
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  And I say that because if you get too mired up in, you know, chapter five and you never get,
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  you never get to the end of it, none of it really matters, right? I mean, it's good exercise,
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  don't get me wrong. It's, there's no, there's no such thing as wasted writing time because it's,
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  it's good to exercise with rewriting different things. Oh, you've not read some of my books.
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  You know, but if you want to get a book out there, you got to get all the way to the end.
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  And so our, you know, our first thing is, is looking at the structure, right? Did you get it?
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  Did you get all the pieces and the elements in there? And then from there, I'd say start with
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  those real emotional moments, those moments of epiphany in a detective novel, right? Those
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  moments where the detective has that inkling that something else is happening here and they can't
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  quite put their finger on what it is. As a reader, that's a very engaging moment because I'm like,
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  "Wait, what do I know about this story
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  that that detective is trying to touch on?"
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  So that puts me right into their headspace, right?
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  Also looking at times when secrets are revealed,
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  there again, it can be how does if our detective
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  is going to then confront the killer.
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  Maybe they have confronted the killer
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  before we know that's the killer.
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  And looking at how does that interaction happen?
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  And then how can you sort of mirror and change that
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  know that this is the killer. How does their mindset change? How do they feel about standing
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  in the presence of a killer? And that is because that changes how I as the reader identify with
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  that detective too, right? I want to feel that bit of fear like, "Oh my god, is this person going
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  to die?" And how are they going to get out of it? And you write a bunch of books in the series,
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  and I know that there's six more books that come after this with this particular detective,
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  so I know they're not going to die, but maybe they're going to get beat up. Maybe they're going to get,
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  maybe they're going to be in danger somehow, maybe something's going to, or maybe somebody that they
• 14:56
  care about is the one that's in danger. So, all those side characters are fair game, we can kill them off.
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  Those are fair game. So, you watch somebody that you've had an opportunity to really get to know,
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  a love interest, a sister, a parent, a co-worker, those kinds of characters. So that shock, right?
• 15:17
  So those are kind of the key moments I would really focus on for a newbie author.
• 15:22
  You're not going to learn everything that you need to know in book one.
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  Sometimes you have to write 30 books and every single book, hopefully,
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  hopefully every single book, you're learning something new about yourself,
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  about your process, about writing, about craft,
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  and every single one is going to get better over time.
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  Even if you write a hundred, I think that's true.
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  I was going to say, I hear her saying that don't worry, Doug, your next book might be good.
• 15:44
  This is what I.
• 15:46
  There's still a chance.
• 15:47
  There's still a chance.
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  There's still a chance.
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  And we're all pulling for you, man.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  I would say we're picking on Doug, but he's actually picking on himself here.
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  He really is.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Even though self-deprecation is my love language.
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  Yeah, well, I'm British, so we rule the world with self-deprecation.
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  Anyway, first of all, Doug's books are fantastic.
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  Second of all, your point that you made about get to the end of the book, write the first
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  I think one of the things that's really important when it's your first book or one of your very
• 16:17
  early books is when you start writing the first five chapters of that book and you later on write
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  the last five chapters, I almost guarantee your voice has changed when you're going through that
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  process so early on. So, and that's something that can be smoothed out. You'll go back and read
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  the first five and go, "Oh, wow. No, I figured out these things and these beats and these dialogue
• 16:39
  tags and actions instead of tags and things like that. There's so many things right you
• 16:44
  must see and guide the author on.
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  I do think that's one of the things I tell a lot of newbie authors when they ask is like,
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  "How do you get about doing that?" I do a little class sometimes here in Memphis and
• 16:54
  one of the first things I do is I like Highland's rules. So Robert Highland who had the, and
• 16:58
  I'll probably remember them all, but the very first one is you got to write. Kind of hard
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  to put out a book if you don't have anything and you got to finish it. That's his first
• 17:05
  two rules. You got to write and you got to finish it.
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  'Cause you can edit it, right?
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  You go back and revisions are part of the process.
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  They're a very, very important part of the process.
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  But you're right, Nick, that you,
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  whatever you start writing,
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  by the time you've gotten to the end,
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  'cause novels are really long.
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  They take a long time and a lot of stuff has to happen.
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  I was at a conference one time in this new author, Blesser.
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  She was writing a romance novel and she goes,
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  "Well, I know how they meet,
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  and I know that they're gonna end up at the end.
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  They'll be together."
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  But, you know, in the middle,
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  I'm not quite sure what happens.
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  (laughing)
• 17:39
  Well, that's the trick, isn't it?
• 17:41
  - Wow, yeah.
• 17:42
  - Yeah.
• 17:43
  (laughing)
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  - That's the real trick that we're happening here.
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  - That's every single book I get to,
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  I'm like, "Hi, I know how I want to end it,
• 17:49
  I know how to start it."
• 17:50
  But yeah, it's the same.
• 17:51
  - Well, it's a romance, it's a happy ever after.
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  It's like, "Well, we kind of knew this going in."
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  Yeah, that's the part that everybody knows that bit.
• 17:57
  - All right, the police procedural,
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  you know you're gonna have a murder at the beginning
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  and you're gonna have to find the people at the end.
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  So whatever happens in between is all the,
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  You know, it's funny and also I think there's a lot of, you know, and I was just talking
• 18:08
  to a friend of mine who writes, and he writes great books, but it's every time he writes,
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  it's a, this book is going to be, it's the worst one ever written.
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  And I'm like, I think that we all kind of bog into that feeling sometimes that you just
• 18:18
  can't give into that.
• 18:20
  Oh yeah.
• 18:20
  That's a normal part of the creative process.
• 18:22
  It's so normal to dislike your book or whatever project you're working on, whether that's
• 18:28
  a painting or something else.
• 18:30
  It's, that is, it's a completely normal thing.
• 18:32
  And I think we need to--
• 18:34
  I think we as an author community just
• 18:36
  need to talk about that element of the process more.
• 18:39
  You get the spark of an idea at the beginning,
• 18:42
  and it's so exciting, right?
• 18:44
  You get the dopamine hit of, I know what's
• 18:46
  possible with this story.
• 18:49
  The outline is there.
• 18:50
  The excitement is there.
• 18:52
  But because it's a slog to get all those words on the page,
• 18:56
  you're going to drop off.
• 18:57
  That's part of the process, is that your excitement
• 19:00
  is going to wane.
• 19:01
  It's not going to be as interesting.
• 19:03
  You're going to think it's the worst thing
• 19:05
  that you've ever written,
• 19:06
  and it's the worst thing that anybody
• 19:08
  on the planet has ever written, right?
• 19:10
  - Yeah, once in a while, I'll get a book
• 19:12
  that I'm really into, and I'm halfway through it.
• 19:14
  I'm loving it, and I'm like, "Oh crap, if I like it."
• 19:18
  (Nikki laughs)
• 19:20
  You ever do, have you done that, Nik,
• 19:21
  where you're halfway through it,
• 19:21
  and you're like, "I'm really enjoying this,"
• 19:22
  and then you start thinking,
• 19:24
  "Wait a minute, I usually don't like this part."
• 19:25
  So I start worrying that I really am now,
• 19:29
  Now I've got something else to worry about.
• 19:30
  So, you know, don't let the anxiety.
• 19:33
  - It's that muddy middle, I think that we all hit
• 19:36
  at some point in the middle of it where you're like,
• 19:38
  "Okay, it's not, we're not quite as a big buildup
• 19:41
  to the end of it, especially in the thriller thing
• 19:43
  if you're using in general terms, a three act kind of thing."
• 19:46
  It's not like trading water.
• 19:47
  It feels to us sometimes like it's trading water.
• 19:50
  And generally when we go back and Doug and I have talked
• 19:52
  about this a lot, when we go back and do our read-through
• 19:54
  at the end, we're like, "Oh, this is great through it."
• 19:56
  It races right through the middle.
• 19:57
  It's great.
• 19:58
  - That's what that's like.
• 19:59
  - Some of my best lines and I'm like,
• 20:01
  oh, that's a really good line.
• 20:02
  That was really great.
• 20:04
  Yeah, so, I mean, don't worry.
• 20:05
  If I usually find that,
• 20:06
  especially when I start listening to my audio books
• 20:08
  to QCM, I'm like, oh, this is really good,
• 20:10
  but it doesn't matter 'cause five minutes later I go,
• 20:12
  I can't believe I wrote that.
• 20:14
  (laughing)
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  And back to the show.
• 21:01
  So actually that kind of leads us back to one of the things that I see a lot of emerging authors kind of do.
• 21:06
  And it's kind of hold on to that first manuscript.
• 21:09
  Like this is so precious.
• 21:10
  It's the first one you've ever written and it takes a lot of challenge.
• 21:13
  As a developmental editor, as an editor in general, often I see these kind of guys take offense when you try to give them the criticism that they're needing.
• 21:20
  How do you help authors hear that hard feedback without them shutting down?
• 21:25
  And is there really an art to deliver it?
• 21:27
  Because I need to talk to Nick because he's he's just harsh
• 21:30
  when he starts reading my stuff.
• 21:31
  He's like, that's fucking shit is constructive.
• 21:34
  You take it the wrong way.
• 21:37
  You go, this is fucking stupid.
• 21:40
  That's dumb, Doug.
• 21:44
  To be clear, I've never said or thought about that.
• 21:46
  No, Nick's never said that.
• 21:48
  Nick's actually a great person.
• 21:49
  But I have no.
• 21:51
  No, actually, actually, it's super supportive.
• 21:54
  why she's never said that to me. She does her, I tell her by my favorite note she makes
• 21:59
  when she reads my stuff is she just writes, "I roll at the side." If I do something stupid
• 22:03
  that she's like, she writes, "I roll as her note." But anyway, no, but as an editor, how
• 22:09
  is the best way to deliver that kind of criticism so that they can use it constructively, I
• 22:15
  guess, is a good way?
• 22:16
  I think constructively is really the key word here. So I have had to tell people that precious
• 22:22
  little book that they've created is ugly. I had to tell a client with a 80,000 word
• 22:28
  manuscript that we needed to basically start from the beginning and do it again. So those
• 22:33
  are really tough conversations. On my part, you know, I don't want to deliver sad news
• 22:37
  to people, but on the in a bigger way, I think that the way that people give you that feedback
• 22:44
  needs to be more of a critique than a criticism. So when we think about criticism, criticism
• 22:52
  is something that cuts you down, where critique is something that helps you to grow. There's
• 22:57
  an interesting process in art schools, for example. In art school, there's a process
• 23:03
  during the creation of your piece where you are in a critique group and everybody gets
• 23:11
  an opportunity to comment on the success or less successful elements of the piece that
• 23:17
  you are creating. And you as the artist have to one, be able to listen to this critique
• 23:22
  and hear what people are saying. But what's really important in that process is that those
• 23:27
  critique partners have to be specific about what it is that's not working and be able
• 23:34
  to provide suggestions about how you could approach this differently. That is where I
• 23:39
  feel like a lot of potential critique partners as well as potential editors maybe don't fill
• 23:45
  that gap, right? If you are working with a critique partner who just says this sucks, period, send,
• 23:52
  that's not helpful feedback. But if you're working with a critique partner that can be more specific,
• 23:57
  that can really challenge you to say like, I mean, the scene, the scene is fine and it works,
• 24:02
  but also I don't feel anything when I'm reading this. This is just like, this is just information.
• 24:08
  And so what I would recommend is that you can, you know, here's how you could maybe make it more
• 24:11
  more engaging.
• 24:12
  And then you as the author, and this is the really important part, is that there's always
• 24:18
  a different way to tell that story.
• 24:22
  Okay?
• 24:22
  There's always a different way to tell that story.
• 24:24
  But you as the author have to have your perspective and your opinion about the way you want it
• 24:30
  to be told.
• 24:31
  And so when somebody is giving you feedback that this doesn't work or that doesn't work,
• 24:35
  I don't like this character.
• 24:37
  It's just meh.
• 24:38
  You know, I don't have any other information.
• 24:39
  It's just meh.
• 24:40
  I don't feel anything about it.
• 24:41
  You need to be able to take the note, but you don't have to change it the way that they
• 24:45
  tell you to change it.
• 24:46
  So I'll give you an example of this.
• 24:48
  At a client who had a, it was a time travel romance.
• 24:53
  We have a Highlander from the 1500 who comes to present day.
• 24:57
  And for various reasons, he has to-
• 25:00
  That's a crazy story that I'll never sell.
• 25:05
  I know, right?
• 25:06
  I just had to sidebar all these Highlander books that are out and I'll end it.
• 25:11
  - Yeah.
• 25:12
  - Outland, no, I know it's Outlander,
• 25:13
  but all I, she said Highlander,
• 25:15
  'cause it's a Highlander who came back.
• 25:16
  All I ever think about is there can only be one.
• 25:18
  So you can tell.
• 25:19
  - Oh yeah.
• 25:20
  - I don't read a lot of romance.
• 25:22
  I'm more of a cut people's heads off kind of a person.
• 25:25
  - We're getting another Highlander.
• 25:28
  There can only be one.
• 25:29
  So.
• 25:29
  - Oh, I know, yeah.
• 25:30
  - So that's gonna be great.
• 25:32
  We're all wrong.
• 25:33
  - Henry Cavill too.
• 25:34
  - Yeah, that'd be kind of cool, hopefully so.
• 25:36
  - I know you're a big fan of Henry Cavill, so.
• 25:39
  (laughing)
• 25:41
  They're making it for you, Doug.
• 25:42
  They're making it just for you.
• 25:43
  Anyway, so the Highlander comes to the modern day
• 25:45
  and he has to confront this guy
• 25:47
  who owns a medieval fighting studio.
• 25:49
  Like it's like a karate studio,
• 25:51
  but you fight the way medieval people used to fight.
• 25:53
  - Right, yeah.
• 25:54
  - So he has to fight this guy
• 25:56
  and the winner gets the girl, okay?
• 25:57
  And the modern guy wins
• 25:59
  and the Highlander loses in this fight.
• 26:02
  And so my feedback is absolutely not.
• 26:06
  This Highlander has trained to fight
• 26:09
  since he was literally five years old,
• 26:11
  he has carried around a wooden sword.
• 26:13
  And more importantly, the fights that he has been in
• 26:17
  have been fights for his life.
• 26:19
  This other guy fights for points.
• 26:21
  So there's no possible way
• 26:24
  that this Highlander is gonna lose.
• 26:26
  So my recommendation is that we change
• 26:29
  the scenes after this to compensate
• 26:32
  for the fact that the Highlander has to win.
• 26:34
  And then here's how we change these scenes
• 26:36
  so that this makes more sense.
• 26:38
  When I sent those edits off to that author,
• 26:40
  I think she called me the next day and said,
• 26:42
  OK, I hear you.
• 26:44
  However, the Highlander has to lose because he
• 26:47
  needs to learn a lesson.
• 26:48
  Ah, there was no lesson.
• 26:50
  So I was missing the piece that she really
• 26:53
  wanted to have as part of this character's overall growth
• 26:58
  as a human being.
• 26:59
  And that's what I didn't get from that scene.
• 27:02
  So now we change the fight scene so it makes sense
• 27:06
  that the Highlander loses.
• 27:07
  And we change the following scenes to make sure
• 27:10
  that it's clear that he's learning a lesson
• 27:11
  as we get out of this, right?
• 27:13
  So that's what I mean by take the note, not the suggestion.
• 27:16
  - For sure, yeah, 'cause sometimes what you're thinking
• 27:18
  isn't the same thing as what the, I mean,
• 27:20
  and I've seen that too.
• 27:21
  I know Nick and I probably both have,
• 27:23
  you know, editor comes back with a note
• 27:25
  and you're like, "Eh, they didn't understand it."
• 27:27
  But then you look at it, why didn't they understand it
• 27:30
  and try to figure that out?
• 27:32
  - Yeah, it's a bit red flag, right?
• 27:33
  If they didn't, then it's the same with your beta readers.
• 27:37
  If one beta reader sort of flags something,
• 27:39
  you can kind of go, "Hmm, I need to pay attention to that."
• 27:42
  When the second one flags it, they're like,
• 27:44
  "All right, I gotta fix it."
• 27:45
  - That's a problem.
• 27:46
  Also, medieval fight clubs,
• 27:48
  that would be a fun thing to like.
• 27:50
  (laughing)
• 27:52
  - It's like fighting with dysentery and bad teeth.
• 27:55
  What's the difference? - Well, I don't know.
• 27:56
  They actually do do that,
• 27:57
  'cause we went last year to,
• 27:59
  they had like these big armored people here,
• 28:00
  like they came in and they do meet together
• 28:02
  every week and fight in armor.
• 28:05
  And I'm like, man, and they did it in the middle of July
• 28:07
  in Memphis, which was hot as hell.
• 28:09
  I'm like, I was dying.
• 28:11
  I was wearing shorts and a tank top.
• 28:13
  And I was like, how do these guys not dead?
• 28:14
  But yeah, I was like, man.
• 28:16
  - How do you beat a Scotsman?
• 28:17
  That would be how to do it.
• 28:18
  Bring him to Memphis in the summer.
• 28:20
  - That's why he loses because he's like somewhere hot.
• 28:23
  And he's like, holy hell.
• 28:24
  (laughing)
• 28:25
  - I saw this, I'm going boom.
• 28:27
  (laughing)
• 28:29
  - What the hell?
• 28:31
  Atlanta, that's the closest to Highlands.
• 28:34
  Oh my goodness.
• 28:35
  [INTERPOSING VOICES]
• 28:37
  Let's bring it back in.
• 28:38
  Sorry.
• 28:40
  We're professionals, I promise you.
• 28:42
  What is something, a craft problem that you have seen,
• 28:44
  though, in manuscripts over and over again that authors
• 28:48
  generally just don't realize they're doing?
• 28:50
  Oh, let's see.
• 28:51
  So a couple things.
• 28:52
  First of all, I would say that conversations
• 28:56
  should have subtext.
• 28:59
  And because a lot of times people don't say what they mean,
• 29:04
  they're usually hiding something.
• 29:06
  They're usually sort of trying to say something
• 29:10
  in a way that is appropriate to the person
• 29:12
  they are speaking to, which may not
• 29:14
  reflect their real feelings.
• 29:16
  So when we have folks that are just having a conversation,
• 29:20
  you want to make sure that you are incorporating something
• 29:23
  in the whosoever point of view that you're in,
• 29:27
  what is it that that person is hiding?
• 29:29
  What are they dancing around?
• 29:31
  What is something they don't wanna admit to this person
• 29:34
  for whatever reason, right?
• 29:35
  Maybe because they feel guilty
• 29:36
  or maybe because they feel exposed or vulnerable
• 29:39
  or what are some of those things
• 29:41
  that you can kind of play around with those
• 29:43
  because it makes that scene so much more interesting
• 29:46
  when you have something that's burbling
• 29:48
  underneath the surface.
• 29:49
  And that can be, like I said,
• 29:50
  that can be a lot of different kinds of emotions,
• 29:52
  But that's what really takes us seeing from fine to next level.
• 29:57
  Is that type of thing?
• 29:58
  That's really good.
• 29:59
  Yeah.
• 29:59
  That's great advice.
• 30:01
  Actually, that's actually something I've been thinking about a little bit too, as I
• 30:03
  do a little more is I love dialogue anyway.
• 30:06
  So trying to make sure you get the nuances that people have is I want to listen to
• 30:12
  people talk and, you know, people say something and there's always that awkward
• 30:16
  dialogue too.
• 30:17
  And so sometimes I like to throw a little awkward dialogue in, which feels like
• 30:20
  out of place, but like, you know, if something happens and you have to comment about it, like,
• 30:23
  you know, I feel like that's important.
• 30:26
  Awkward is really important. Most of us are awkward a lot of the times. So how do you incorporate
• 30:31
  that awkwardness, right? How does that awkwardness feel? Where does, where is that awkwardness
• 30:36
  coming from? And like I said, just kind of play with that, really play with that with
• 30:41
  how that feels in your character's body. You know, we can talk about, you know, oh, they, you know,
• 30:46
  they get too hot or they get too cold or, you know, they feel angry.
• 30:50
  But if you can sort of remove from the high, from that sort of high level type of
• 30:55
  text into get into their body and what does it mean for them to start to feel
• 31:00
  angry? How does that, you know, sort of inner, inner volcano start to, start to
• 31:05
  burble before it erupts into the, into the scene?
• 31:08
  How do you kind of play with that deep in their body sort of feelings of those
• 31:11
  emotions? It makes it just more visceral for your readers.
• 31:15
  So the author-editor relationship is incredibly important from both sides, right? I mean,
• 31:23
  you don't want to be working on stuff that's not fun for you to work on or not interesting for you
• 31:27
  to work on and or with people that you don't find pleasurable to work with. So, and it's kind of the
• 31:32
  same from the author. You want someone who understands your voice and you want to be able to
• 31:37
  respect them enough that they love your difference between criticism and critique. I think that's
• 31:43
  Yeah, for sure.
• 31:43
  Fantastic way of putting that.
• 31:45
  That's brilliant.
• 31:46
  We're going to steal that, by the way.
• 31:48
  Yeah, yeah.
• 31:49
  Excellent.
• 31:50
  So, from the author point of view, you want to respect your editor and know that they're
• 31:54
  going to deliver stuff in a way that is palatable for you, but truthful, right?
• 31:59
  You can rely on them.
• 32:01
  How do you recommend that new authors go about finding that editor?
• 32:06
  It's a tricky business and it's one of the questions we get asked more than anything.
• 32:10
  It's like, "How do I find an editor?"
• 32:12
  There's so many people pop up online now.
• 32:14
  We're like, I'm decided I want to be an editor and you don't necessarily know.
• 32:17
  So that's a good question.
• 32:19
  Yeah.
• 32:19
  So there's a lot of people that feel that they know grammar really well.
• 32:23
  So they want to be an editor.
• 32:24
  But I think the number one thing that newbies need to understand and some
• 32:29
  experienced authors as well is that there are different levels of editing.
• 32:34
  And it's honestly weird that in the publishing industry, we don't have more
• 32:39
  words to describe editing and editors because those terms mean so many different things.
• 32:46
  So some people think editor proofreader, right? That is a stage of editing. A developmental editor
• 32:53
  for those that are not aware, developmental editor is working on a very early version of the story.
• 32:59
  Our job is to figure out if the story works. Are all the story elements there? What are some
• 33:07
  opportunities we have to explore more of an emotional roller coaster like we've talked about.
• 33:12
  Do we have some themes that maybe we really want to drive home? Is there opportunities here to bring
• 33:18
  in some side characters? And especially if we're thinking about a series, what are some pieces
• 33:23
  that we can, you know, what's some foundations that we can lay in a book that will pay off maybe,
• 33:29
  excuse me, two or three books later? So those are all kinds of things we want to be thinking about
• 33:33
  in the writing of the book. Then the next stage, right, is copy and line editing. And I combine those
• 33:39
  because depending on where the editor comes from, those terms were interchangeable, depending on
• 33:44
  whether you come from a fiction background or a journalistic background. And I don't know why
• 33:49
  that is, but it is what it is. But line editing, the way that I define it is that line editing is
• 33:54
  where we're looking at literally sentence by sentence, is this sentence doing the work it needs
• 33:59
  to do. Are there opportunities to sort of change up the language here? Have we used the word,
• 34:04
  he said this and she said that and they did this and he did that. Because sometimes, I mean, again,
• 34:11
  novels are really long. We get it, you know, but line editing is going to get you.
• 34:15
  There's only so many words. I had to come up with it.
• 34:17
  There's only so many words. And then copy editing is where we're kind of looking more at grammar
• 34:21
  and that kind of stuff and then proofreading, which is the final look. So when you are looking for an
• 34:28
  editor, number one thing that you want to know, especially as a self pub author, is that you
• 34:34
  want to know that this editor knows your genre and your market. Okay. So there are editors that
• 34:41
  say they do everything, which I'm not going to judge them because it is what it is. But if you go
• 34:47
  to them and say, well, I write thriller books, and they say, yes, I love James Patterson. There's a
• 34:53
  lot of great James Patterson books. Like that's not, you know, and I don't mean that as an insult
• 34:57
  to James Patterson. What I mean is if that's the only thriller author...
• 34:59
  I don't think he's listening, don't worry.
• 35:03
  He's not?
• 35:04
  Well, if he is, he should have reached out to be on the show and he asked...
• 35:07
  Yeah, right?
• 35:07
  No.
• 35:07
  I mean, why wouldn't you want to be on the show with us?
• 35:10
  He should be on the show.
• 35:11
  If he's the only thriller author that you can name,
• 35:14
  that's not going to be helpful to you as a self-pub author, right?
• 35:18
  You need to know kind of what's happening now, what's happening today,
• 35:21
  what are some of the trends that we're looking at so that you can really provide
• 35:26
  just a perspective on whether this book is commercial, what are some pros and cons about
• 35:33
  whether it's going to sell or not that you might want to be thinking about. And then from there,
• 35:38
  get a sample edit. Most editors that I know will do a sample edit with you. Developmental
• 35:44
  edits are really difficult to get a sample for because if I read 5,000 words, that's not really
• 35:49
  helpful for how the story overall is working. But I was given permission by a couple of authors
• 35:55
  to hand out their editorial letters. So a developmental edit will come with comments in the margin,
• 36:01
  sometimes inline edits as well, everything in track changes so you can see them.
• 36:05
  And then it'll also include an editorial letter, which kind of goes into the,
• 36:09
  just goes a little deeper into what's working, what's not working, what are some opportunities
• 36:12
  that you have here to kind of, to really like bring this story to life in a different way.
• 36:17
  So you'll have all those. So I have samples that I can send out to people that show you what a,
• 36:22
  what a letter looks like.
• 36:23
  So that would be part of it.
• 36:24
  Have a conversation with this person.
• 36:27
  I mean, everybody has Zoom now.
• 36:28
  So just get on a Zoom call and have a conversation
• 36:31
  and see if this person seems excited to talk to you,
• 36:33
  excited about your story,
• 36:35
  excited to help you bring your story to life.
• 36:39
  I will say never work with somebody,
• 36:41
  never work with somebody
• 36:43
  that doesn't have respect for your genre.
• 36:45
  We see this a lot, the romance genre,
• 36:48
  where people really discount
• 36:50
  the quality of the stories.
• 36:52
  They're all trash, they're all smut,
• 36:54
  there's no depth to them or what have you.
• 36:56
  And any romance reader knows that all of that is untrue,
• 36:59
  but as a romance author, you need to make sure
• 37:02
  that you are working with somebody
• 37:03
  who's going to appreciate your story
• 37:05
  and be a fan of it.
• 37:07
  I got contacted by an author who sells a lot of books.
• 37:12
  She sells a lot of books.
• 37:14
  And she contacted me because I was interacting with her
• 37:17
  as a fan, I'm a fan of hers.
• 37:19
  And she said, "Hey, are you available to proofread this book for me?"
• 37:23
  The editor that I've been using for the last, whatever, 10, 12 books,
• 37:27
  she doesn't like my books.
• 37:29
  And I'm like, "Didn't like it?
• 37:31
  What do you mean she doesn't like your books?"
• 37:33
  Well, she doesn't read the sex scenes.
• 37:35
  And she thinks they're all, they're gross.
• 37:37
  So she just doesn't read that part.
• 37:39
  And I'm like, "Big sigh."
• 37:41
  Because those should be important elements to your book.
• 37:44
  But more importantly, working with somebody who doesn't
• 37:48
  want you to succeed is just a recipe for failure, right?
• 37:51
  They're not going to see your piece
• 37:54
  as something that is valuable in the world.
• 37:57
  And you've put all these hours and all this work
• 38:00
  into creating the story and these characters
• 38:01
  in this world and maybe even as part of a series
• 38:05
  that you've continued through.
• 38:07
  That's thousands of hours of work.
• 38:09
  And to have somebody who doesn't see the value
• 38:12
  means that you're not setting yourself up
• 38:14
  for a success here.
• 38:15
  So, so always work with people who have a deep respect for your genre, as well as a good deal of information about it.
• 38:23
  I assume you'd also need to like those people too.
• 38:26
  I mean, I know you can get by without it, but like if you're talking about a pretty close working relationship after a while, if you don't like the person, you're going to really not take their advice.
• 38:34
  I would think so.
• 38:35
  If you really dislike them, I think that's the thing, right?
• 38:38
  You don't love them.
• 38:39
  You just have to not dislike them.
• 38:43
  Well, he's a complete asshole, but he does okay with my editing.
• 38:46
  You know, it's funny because I have there are authors that I've that I've worked with for years
• 38:51
  and our entire relationship is email based.
• 38:54
  All of our we've never like we've never spoken over Zoom.
• 38:57
  We've never had a had like a live conversation.
• 39:00
  Everything has been very businessy and that that has worked for those relationships.
• 39:04
  And then there are there are other authors that have come to visit me in my house.
• 39:08
  Like God on a plane.
• 39:11
  Which was weird at one in the morning when they kept you in.
• 39:14
  - It was like--
• 39:14
  - As thriller writers were both like,
• 39:16
  oh, and they just showed up and like--
• 39:17
  - They just showed up in my house.
• 39:19
  - On the ladder.
• 39:20
  - Of course you guys don't do that.
• 39:23
  - Yeah.
• 39:24
  I'm here.
• 39:25
  (laughing)
• 39:27
  Feels like misery, but with an editor still.
• 39:29
  - So that relationship can look like
• 39:31
  a lot of different kinds of things,
• 39:32
  but as long as they respect the work that you're doing--
• 39:35
  - That's the word.
• 39:35
  - That's what we're looking for here.
• 39:37
  And they wanna see you succeed.
• 39:39
  And I think that's another really key feeling that you have.
• 39:43
  As you are creating your publishing team--
• 39:46
  and I often tell people that they need three teams.
• 39:48
  Every author needs three teams.
• 39:49
  But one of those teams is your publishing team.
• 39:51
  These are the editors that help you get the manuscript
• 39:55
  in the right place.
• 39:56
  These are your cover designers that
• 39:58
  can advise you about that image that you
• 40:00
  think that you want on your cover that maybe here's
• 40:03
  a reason why it's not the best one for you.
• 40:06
  You want to be really cautious about cover designers that
• 40:08
  do anything you ask them to do because they don't have an opinion.
• 40:13
  Right.
• 40:13
  They don't have an opinion about what is trending, what is marketable, what are we
• 40:18
  looking for right now in cover?
• 40:20
  So be, be a little cautious about that, especially if you haven't done a ton of
• 40:24
  research, if you've done a ton of research and you know the trends in the
• 40:27
  market and that type of thing, yes, you want somebody that's going to execute
• 40:29
  your vision, but remember that it's also a partnership when you have a, a cover
• 40:33
  designer.
• 40:34
  So these are important partnerships
• 40:36
  that you are creating to get to that place
• 40:39
  where you're ready to publish.
• 40:41
  For anybody that's on the traditional side,
• 40:43
  just to sort of comment on that,
• 40:45
  'cause a lot of folks are in the traditional side,
• 40:47
  you don't necessarily get to pick your editors
• 40:49
  most of the time, you are assigned editors.
• 40:52
  There can be a lot of comfort in that
• 40:53
  because you don't feel like you have to go through
• 40:55
  a whole bunch of people and interview a whole bunch of people.
• 40:57
  The downside of that is that,
• 40:59
  is that traditional publishers have, they have a staff,
• 41:02
  They also work with contract folks,
• 41:05
  but you are getting somebody who kind of knows
• 41:06
  what the publisher is looking for.
• 41:08
  And so there's a different type of way
• 41:10
  that you want to listen to them.
• 41:11
  But at the same time, just know that for a lot
• 41:14
  of traditional publishers, if they ask you to change something
• 41:19
  that you feel is really important,
• 41:21
  you don't actually have to change it a lot of the time.
• 41:24
  Sometimes you do, okay?
• 41:25
  Different reasons for different things.
• 41:27
  If there's something that's really important to you,
• 41:28
  know this has to stay because this is why this scene has to stay, this character has
• 41:34
  to stay whatever it is. This is why they have to stay. As long as you have a point of view
• 41:38
  and an opinion about why that is, a lot of times they're going to listen to you. So don't
• 41:42
  change simply because somebody told you to change it. Because again, they may not know,
• 41:47
  right? They may not have the whole story about what it is that you are, what you're working
• 41:51
  towards. So feel free to have those conversations.
• 41:55
  something else that needs adjusting, right? That might be very important in your mind,
• 41:59
  but you miss somewhere else. Exactly. And you may have included something that feels
• 42:03
  unnecessary for the story, but because that's going to set up something that happens in book 3,
• 42:08
  so that scene is going to be important in book 3. It's just not important in book 1.
• 42:12
  But again, this is a conversation. It's much more of a conversation, I think, than sometimes,
• 42:17
  especially new authors really realize. They think that in school, you get back changes
• 42:22
  from your teacher and you have to make those changes in order to improve your grade. But
• 42:26
  that's not what this relationship is. This is much more of a partnership. It's much more of a,
• 42:31
  I believe this is a good move, but if you, as a professional author, feel like this is a different
• 42:37
  direction you want to take it, then take it that way. You're an adult and you're a business owner,
• 42:41
  so you actually do get to decide what happens here.
• 42:44
  And now a word from this episode sponsor. I'm back. Jamie Davis, show manager from Author
• 42:49
  nation in Las Vegas this coming November, catch up with me there for a free dad joke
• 42:54
  or try this one on for size. Did you hear about the librarian who kept slipping and falling
• 42:59
  down? They forgot they were in the non-friction section.
• 43:04
  And now let's get back to this week's guest.
• 43:06
  Real quick, because I definitely want to ask you this question and talk about burnout
• 43:10
  a little bit because that's something you must, as a coach, deal with quite a bit. With
• 43:14
  authors you touched on at the beginning, people find they've hit a brick wall, they're
• 43:17
  already out of steam. The marketing right now is hell on wheels. So it really feels
• 43:23
  like you're in quicksand. Do you have a couple of points or hints or suggestions you can
• 43:30
  make for people that are starting to feel that way?
• 43:32
  The first thing I want to say is that burnout is very real. And a lot of times people don't
• 43:37
  realize they are on the path towards burnout until they are just so crispy around the edges
• 43:42
  that they feel like their skin is crawling.
• 43:47
  - My ass is smoking.
• 43:49
  - That's different, Doug, for medication.
• 43:50
  - Oh, oh. (laughing)
• 43:53
  Oh, I don't know.
• 43:54
  I thought that was just 'cause I've been doing
• 43:56
  those glued exercises, but whatever.
• 43:58
  (laughing)
• 44:02
  - Burnout is when you have been working so hard
• 44:06
  and you haven't taken the time to refill the well
• 44:08
  and refilling the well looks different for different people
• 44:12
  and it looks different in different situations.
• 44:14
  So the first thing to recognize is that
• 44:17
  if you feel like you have no motivation,
• 44:20
  if you feel guilty about sitting on your couch,
• 44:24
  these are signs that you are in or headed towards burnout,
• 44:28
  because if sitting on your couch makes you feel guilty,
• 44:32
  well, you're not being lazy,
• 44:34
  you literally have a deficit
• 44:37
  as to why you cannot get up and go do things.
• 44:39
  And one, it can be because you're working too hard.
• 44:42
  I just want to state just real clearly here that depression
• 44:45
  can look like a lot of different things in different people.
• 44:48
  And if you are finding that it is difficult for you
• 44:50
  to get up off your couch, maintain a clean living space,
• 44:54
  maintain yourself, and you're not having fun at things
• 44:57
  that are normally fun for you, that it might be time
• 44:59
  to talk to a doctor.
• 44:59
  And I just kind of want to get that out there.
• 45:01
  A lot of us feel like we've--
• 45:03
  well, I haven't had depression before.
• 45:04
  Why would I have depression now?
• 45:06
  And it's just something that can surprise you sometimes.
• 45:08
  So I just want to put that out there for folks.
• 45:10
  But burnout is something that we can address
• 45:12
  in some other ways.
• 45:13
  Number one is to know that is that when you find yourself
• 45:17
  under a lot of stress, that you have to find a way
• 45:21
  through the stress cycle.
• 45:22
  So stress is a cycle in our bodies,
• 45:24
  the same way that we have a digestive system, right?
• 45:27
  Where things have to go all the way through,
• 45:29
  otherwise we get really sick.
• 45:31
  Stress is the same way.
• 45:32
  And sometimes we hold onto that stress
• 45:34
  rather than processing that stress.
• 45:35
  So we want to make sure that we're doing that.
• 45:37
  So there's seven ways.
• 45:39
  These are peer reviewed, scientifically proven ways
• 45:42
  that you can process your stress and making sure
• 45:46
  that you are doing this on a regular basis.
• 45:47
  And number one of those is sleep.
• 45:50
  The number one thing that authors tell me
• 45:52
  when they are in the situation and they're not writing
• 45:54
  and they're overwhelmed and all that kind of stuff
• 45:56
  is I ask them how they are sleeping
• 45:58
  and they roll their eyes.
• 46:00
  (laughing)
• 46:02
  I haven't slept through the night in 10 years.
• 46:04
  Well, I just wanna say sleep and rest
• 46:07
  of those things that if they are not working for you,
• 46:10
  a lot of things are not going to work.
• 46:12
  So that would be the first thing to address.
• 46:15
  The second thing I'll say is to make sure
• 46:16
  that you're moving around, depending on where you live,
• 46:19
  if it's too hot outside, too cold outside,
• 46:21
  too rainy outside, too snowy outside,
• 46:23
  whatever that your deal is that if you can't get outside,
• 46:25
  just move in your house, dance in your living room,
• 46:28
  do some jumping jacks, like march in place,
• 46:31
  whatever it is, but do some movement
• 46:33
  because kind of allowing the oxygen to really run through our system is a way for you to
• 46:40
  really be able to refresh yourself.
• 46:42
  On the more creative side, there's some other ways that you can deal with stress.
• 46:46
  I recommend the book Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nogosky.
• 46:50
  You can find that online.
• 46:53
  They have tons of great information about how to deal with stress.
• 46:56
  On the creative side, a lot of times we call this filling the well.
• 47:00
  And filling the well, you're going to need different things.
• 47:03
  Sometimes we conflate it with self-care, like getting a mani-pedi or drinking enough
• 47:09
  water or treating yourself to a nice dinner, which are all really good things.
• 47:13
  Those are all really good things.
• 47:14
  But as a professional creative, you also need to be looking at how you replenish your creativity.
• 47:22
  Are you looking for inspiration?
• 47:24
  Do you go to museums?
• 47:25
  You can look at architecture.
• 47:27
  You can watch a comedy show in order to laugh.
• 47:31
  And kind of a step beyond that is dissecting why those things are funny and how you can
• 47:35
  replicate that in your books, right?
• 47:37
  So where are you going for inspiration?
• 47:40
  To be creative, to be sad, to have those emotional experiences?
• 47:44
  Because we can lose sight of that in the course of words on the page, production schedules,
• 47:52
  family care, dinner has to be made every night.
• 47:55
  And this is the time of year where there is, there feels like there's something all the
• 47:59
  time.
• 48:00
  graduation ceremonies, there's end of the year parties, there's Memorial Day, there's lots of good fun,
• 48:07
  wonderful things to experience, right? But it can also mean that you need to adjust your expectations for your business
• 48:15
  in order to also have fun doing things, because it's the fun, right? It's having fun that can really help you to refill the well.
• 48:24
  When I talk before about, you know, the seven things, one of those things is laughing.
• 48:28
  Laughing hard enough that, you know, you kind of lose your breath or maybe you get some tears in
• 48:33
  your eyes or something like that. When was the last time that you did that either by yourself,
• 48:39
  with people out at a comedy show, sitting in the backyard with a bunch of friends that give you
• 48:45
  that kind of a response? I don't listen to two idiots on a podcast. I don't make it cry,
• 48:51
  - Hi, that's for sure.
• 48:52
  I don't know about the laughing before the crying, but it--
• 48:54
  - I laugh a lot today, and I appreciate that.
• 48:56
  I was listening to your guys' podcast,
• 48:57
  a couple of them over the weekend too.
• 48:59
  One of the things I really love about your podcast
• 49:01
  is how much you two laugh and how you make your guests laugh,
• 49:05
  and what a valuable service that is for so many of us.
• 49:10
  - Yes, I've been telling you we were funny all the time.
• 49:12
  You don't ever listen to that kind of thing.
• 49:14
  (laughing)
• 49:17
  - He's sure he's funny.
• 49:18
  - I know he's funny.
• 49:19
  This is we have this been great, but we've we've we've kept you a long time.
• 49:24
  So we're going to our last question, which is our spin the wheel question.
• 49:28
  All right.
• 49:29
  Oh, whoo, ready?
• 49:32
  And I lost our wheel today, Nick.
• 49:33
  Turned out I left it.
• 49:34
  Heck, oh, I had to go find it.
• 49:38
  It was terrible.
• 49:39
  OK, if you were going to be reincarnated as an animal,
• 49:44
  what animal would you get to choose?
• 49:46
  Oh, OK, actually, I have I have an answer for this one.
• 49:48
  So, uh, Quoca, you guys know what a Quoca is?
• 49:51
  It's this adorable little critter that is always smiling.
• 49:56
  And, uh, they're very gentle and they're very friendly.
• 49:59
  And, uh, they don't seem to have a worry about predators.
• 50:03
  They don't seem to have, they don't seem to worry about, you know, paying their rent.
• 50:06
  They are just, they're having critters out in the world.
• 50:09
  You never hear about Quoca's getting evicted.
• 50:11
  They're never getting evicted.
• 50:12
  Nobody's, nobody's started a Kentucky Fried Quoca store.
• 50:15
  Yes.
• 50:17
  (laughing)
• 50:19
  - Nobody's eating quokka on a stick, so.
• 50:22
  - I gotta go look up a quokka now.
• 50:23
  A quokka sounds like a cool--
• 50:24
  - Well, they are very cute, yes, I'm seeing it very--
• 50:26
  - They are absolutely adorable.
• 50:28
  They're friendly and they're gentle
• 50:29
  and they do just kinda seem to live a happy life.
• 50:31
  And we learn a lot from the challenges that we have in life,
• 50:35
  but gosh, sometimes it would be nice
• 50:37
  to not have quite so many challenges.
• 50:38
  (laughing)
• 50:39
  And to just kinda skate through on looks alone, so.
• 50:43
  - This has been fantastic, yeah.
• 50:45
  Really a pleasure. It was a pleasure meeting you a month or so ago and we knew we had to have you on the show. So this has
• 50:52
  Been brilliant. Thank you so much. Oh, I've had a great time
• 50:55
  Thank you guys for having me and and thank you so much for for making me laugh today. Appreciate it
• 51:06
  Oh, thank you so much jen that was that was a lot man. She's good
• 51:10
  Superb. She's a lovely lady
• 51:12
  We got to meet her in person a while back and she's very switched on when it comes to all this stuff.
• 51:17
  Her advice on the editing thing and the whole bit about building a relationship with your editor is so
• 51:22
  so key. I definitely have met my English, my editor in England. We actually met and had lunch together
• 51:29
  when we were over there and my US editor, we started off with a Zoom meeting and made sure we kind of
• 51:35
  gelled a little bit. I did the same when I used a development editor. And if one of the things,
• 51:39
  if I was to go back over again would be to use Development Editor at the beginning. I
• 51:44
  used it for my third beginning of my third series and it made a big difference. So yeah,
• 51:48
  and we got a handout that Jen's going to give us a link that we'll put in the show notes
• 51:53
  and we'll put a link to the book that she mentioned Burnout. But if you feel like you
• 51:57
  get value for the show and I feel like this this show is very high value with Jen.
• 52:01
  Very high value, yes.
• 52:02
  Yeah, super. Then support us on Patreon. We really appreciate it helps helps offset some
• 52:06
  of the costs of the show. Your kindness goes a long way. It's just a few bucks a month for a
• 52:09
  of extra content that we have there. Big thanks to our friends at Velum. Thank you
• 52:13
  them so much for their support of the show. We couldn't do it without you guys. Thank
• 52:17
  you, Brad. Go to trivelum.com/tuauthers if you want to find out a little bit more. All
• 52:22
  the links in the show notes. Give it all a look. Until next time, be cool to each other.
• 52:26
  Fair wins and following sees.
• 52:28
  You've been listening to the Two Authors podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt. Subscribe
• 52:35
  on your favorite platform for new shows coming every week.
• 52:39
  (upbeat music)