Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #102: Interview with Aaron Di Blasi, Sr. PMP, Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd., Regarding Her Ongoing Attempt To Take The Apex Program's CompTIA Network+ Exam at a Pearson Vue Testing Center As A Blind Woman in Canada

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #102: Interview with Aaron Di Blasi, Sr. PMP, Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd., Regarding Her Ongoing Attempt To Take The Apex Program's CompTIA Network+ Exam at a Pearson Vue Testing Center As A Blind Woman in Canada · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLBAP and MBA invites you to listen to her
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biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access, technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles.
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She just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
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through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant,
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an author, a lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
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I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
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accessible to every Canadian, not just his cite it once.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
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where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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I will let him tell you more about himself, but for now,
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I'd like to welcome my friend, my associate,
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my mentor, Aaron Di Blasi.
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Welcome again to the Remarkable World Commentary.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Hello Miss Donna. Thank you again for having me.
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It's always great to be on this podcast with you.
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I always have so much fun, and I think we're going to have a great deal
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of fun today. And that's what it's about.
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Sad as the topic might be.
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It will be a great deal of fun too, to let everyone know what's happening,
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because I don't think a lot of people know about this.
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So I am excited to get it into the eyes and ears of many more people.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's get started. Go for it.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, well, let's just let people know first a little bit about me because this being your
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podcast, I'm going to assume they know about you.
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My name is Aaron Diblasi and I am an engineer by trade,
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a software engineer of more than 30 years.
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I got into the accessibility space in 2004 when I began working for the then publisher
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of Top Tech Tidbits the weekly newsletter, which is currently the leading weekly not for
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profit newsletter for disability technology information.
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We spun off other publications.
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We'll get into that. We don't need to cover that in this podcast.
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The point being, I've been working with Donna as her friend and mentor for probably 13
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years now. We were introduced by Mr.
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Larry Lewis, who was the former publisher of Top Tech Tidbits,
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and during that time, Donna has taught me a lot about what real
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advocacy means. And today is two things.
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It is a tragedy, and it is also a workshop on real advocacy and what that means,
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the real painful, costly type of advocacy.
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And with that, I will set the stage.
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And Donna, if there's anything that you would like to say to that before we open
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up, just let me know.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I can't wait for this interview to take place.
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And I want to thank you for for walking the walk with me.
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So let's walk.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Let's, let's walk, let's tell the story.
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Hopefully we don't get too entrenched in that. But the story is the important part.
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So let's start on November 25th, 2024.
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When you were awarded a full $7,500 USD scholarship to the Apex program,
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12 weeks sponsored by Nova Coast.
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This scholarship was facilitated in part by Doctor Kirk Adams.
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He helped to make it possible.
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Would you like to talk about how you felt the day that you received that news?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I still remember that day when I think it was you who told me and I
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thought, nah, this can't.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I think it might have been. Yeah, I think it might have been. Yeah. Yeah.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, why would I, of all people, a Canadian,
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receive a scholarship from Doctor Kirk Adams,
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like, well, through Doctor Kirk Adams.
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And I thought sure I can't be true.
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And then you said oh yes, it's very
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true. So it.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Was indeed. Yeah. And apex being a United States based program and you being in Canada,
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you know, that's the important part to distinguish. Yeah.
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But it was it was wonderful.
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It was fantastic. I was very excited for you.
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And the reason was that I was excited for Donna is she always had a great interest in
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cybersecurity. So any, any program specific to blind people with the
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word blind people specifically in the program made,
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I thought, would make her very happy. And it did you know.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes it.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Did. Yes it did. However, days later, Donna received her first login.
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You know, and this is the nervous part. I don't know if you want to say anything
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about this part, Donna.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, oh my gosh, the first login and I
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quickly realized, oh.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, this is where you find out. This is where you find out if it's real. This is
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where you find out if it's going to happen.
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And unfortunately, I think listeners know it didn't happen. The screen reader reads
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nothing. We contact apex and apex says it's a glitch.
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Okay. That's right. Well, I go and I take a look.
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Again, I'm a software engineer.
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And by look, I don't mean that I just looked.
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I mean that I use tools to probe the code and to see what was going on.
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And what we figured out was there was no LMS that stands for Learning Management System.
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And that's the only real way that you're going to develop or deliver an accessible
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experience to a learner online is to customize an LMS,
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and they did not have an LMS in place at all.
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It was simply a static HTML page.
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And for whatever reason, her screen reader could not read it nor
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access it. So at her request we reached out to apex and asked if they could provide it in
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a, quote, accessible format.
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And I, at my recommendation we asked for word documents because I just know it's a
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fallback. And surprisingly, they provided us with just that word
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documents. 21 of them 21 typo riddled and visibly out of date word documents.
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At least from my view as a, as a visual person.
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And Donna backed this up with her, you know,
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use of a screen reader to search for certain terms,
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etc., none of which came up due to the way that the documents were created.
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And I think anyone listening will understand that portion.
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So we quickly realized that the $7,500 amounted to about 21 word documents,
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which was okay because we thought, well, you know,
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there's still the help that Donna's going to get. There's these workshops, there's all of
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this assistance, you know, so at least we still get
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that right. Donna.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. We, we, we thought that, you know,
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I get that. But lo and behold
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, she reaches out to one David Mayne, I believe.
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Yes. Is that correct? David Maine and she asks how a blind person should study
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specifically. And his response, they had no idea what I was talking about.
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And I was there for that email.
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And they literally had no idea what she was talking about.
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When we say that, I mean, his response was, there's there's the word
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documents. What else do you need?
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What else do you need? They're accessible. You can you can access them. Right? And we
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said, yes, we can access them. What else do you need? And we,
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you know, we explained what isn't there, you know, assistance or, you know, there
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workshops. Is there anyone to, you know, watch my schedule as I get closer
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to testing? But apparently there was none of that.
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And there was none of that, simply because they wouldn't answer.
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So I decided that we needed, if Donna wanted to continue with this,
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that we were going to need some help.
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And for, for me as an engineer, that help is artificial intelligence today.
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So we took those 21 word documents and we ran them through some of the smartest AI
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available. And we had that AI cross-referenced some of that incorrect
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information with correct information and form tests that Donna could actually access using
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code that her screen reader would understand.
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Now, the irony is that Donna, probably at the end of it,
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ended up spending $7,500 getting that information into a format
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that she could study.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's correct.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's, that's the food for thought, I think,
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for this section. One year later despite all of this,
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no assistance, no human assistance, no workshops,
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no nothing, just an exchange of emails with David Main here and there.
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But no real new information provided.
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One year later, Donna Masters, all 21 chapters from using the AI generated
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study guides and the flash tests that we created for her.
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And basically it would just generate a new flash test on a subject every single time
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until she could master them at a 90 to 100% efficiency rate over and over and over.
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We think it's a very unique way for a blind person to learn a large corpus of material,
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by the way. So let's everybody keep that in mind.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I guess if I if my head was properly screwed on,
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I would have realized right away when I saw the inaccessible login that there was much
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trouble ahead. But you know me, you said so.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You said so, and I did not doubt you.
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I was just hoping for the best, but
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unfortunately, it just got worse.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you know, for me, I always think it's going to get better.
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It's going to get better. But you know, it's like,
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think of it this way. You're in the ocean and you expect those waves to get less and less.
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Well, they got higher and higher and higher.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: They they did, they did.
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Wait till we see what those waves did.
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Yeah. Yeah. So so the point is at this point,
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Donna moves on and we decide that we're going to do it all ourself.
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I mean that's mostly Donna mind you.
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And she got through this and she mastered the material and she said, Aaron, I'm ready to
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test. Which I thought was amazing.
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And then the next obstacle presented itself.
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Remote testing was ruled out.
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Donna's needs for the bathroom exceeded the two hour on camera window.
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So that was not an accommodation that they could allow.
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So she had to test at a center, which we knew,
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and we figured and that was fine.
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You know, Donna has done that many times for many other certifications. She put in a
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request for accommodations.
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Pearson returned about 2 to 3 days later with those accommodations and gave her everything
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that she asked for. But then 2 or 3 days after that,
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they called and said that her location had changed because they could not accommodate
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her at the location that they had originally agreed to accommodate her at.
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So they changed that location.
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And Donna asked basically, are you sure this is final?
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And they said, of course it is.
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Of course it is.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So yes.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: October 1st, 2025 exam day.
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Now, Don, I would like you to take the steering wheel here a little bit and talk
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about the airport style scanners, the Kleenex that was confiscated,
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and the proctor that you met for the first time ever.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So they confiscated my Kleenex.
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They confiscated everything I had brought, although I made darn sure that my stuff you
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know, I had put them all in transparent bags,
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so they took everything out of those bags, out of my bags and gave me their
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bags. All right.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Pearson is serious about cheating. We we all
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know that. Yeah.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So then we go into just outside the the the exam room and I meet my reader.
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I could tell that she was quite young because her voice sounded young.
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She was quite friendly and everything.
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But then you know, what came about next was there were two things.
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First, they had to read all the agreement documents to me.
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I asked if it was there in electronic format and they said no.
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So they read it to me.
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I signed everything. I walked into the room with my reader.
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I thought I was going to have a recorder and a reader recorder to record my.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's what you were supposed to have.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's correct. But I didn't have it. So the young.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Was that accommodation met?
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We don't know. Right?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Well, it wasn't met at that time because I thought it would be two
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persons. It was one.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It was supposed to be. Yeah.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So we sat down and she logged in.
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And again she read all the documents to me, the pre exam documents,
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which I agreed to. And you know, we signed off on it.
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And then came the big wave.
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That being that she brought up the exam.
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And the very first question was one filled with diagrams.
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And I knew then I was in big trouble.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: An example of those questions from the diagrams below.
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Select the configuration that shows a proper network connection.
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Now just imagine that listeners, whether you are blind or sighted,
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you know that you are attempting to answer a question regarding proper network connection
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cables in different orientations.
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I mean, that's an incredible visual challenge,
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to say nothing of properly describing that visual
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challenge, you know?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But then came the horror.
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When I said to her, I said, could you just look to see if there are
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similar questions to this one?
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And she quickly scanned it down the questions and she said there were quite a few at that
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point. I said, so I wonder what we should do?
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And I she said to me, I don't know how to read these
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questions to you.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I believe her exact response was, I don't know what to do here.
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Yeah. That's right. Which we understand she was not she was not prepared for this does
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not make this this person's fault, mind you.
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However, she was not given the tools, as we later will learn,
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that she should have been provided for this particular session.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I made the decision to pull the plug on this exam.
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We were not going to go anywhere, right?
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When when someone says, I don't know what to do,
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I think, oh.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, sure. And nor should your exam be based on someone else's descriptions of an exam
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that they've never seen before today.
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Right. You know, I, I always said from the very beginning,
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Don, I said that these tests, you know, if I'm CompTIA,
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I have to provide these tests in an accessible format.
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That's the top of the chain.
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So therefore there must exist a sanctioned official description of each network diagram
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that should be provided to a blind person.
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So really, if she were handed that document, she could have simply read the alt
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descriptions that were approved, assuming they existed.
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However, we did not know at the time whether they existed or not.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No we didn't. So I pulled the plug on the exam,
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walked out of the exam, told them
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what had happened, but.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Very frustrating day for you.
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A very sad day for you.
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Yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And the administration staff.
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Well, they just simply said we're not here to help you.
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We're just here to make sure you take the exam.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So the feeling that I always got from Pearson is that we prevent cheating at all costs.
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Even the cost of accessibility, it seems.
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And I know that accessibility is very close to cheating.
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I mean, I understand that, but guys, come on,
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you know, oh my God, it's just so frustrating.
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Okay. October 3rd, 2025.
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After this happens, a call with apex.
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They later claimed that they gave consent for her to write about this situation.
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Now, what we want to talk about at this point is that you began publishing your frustration
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publicly in a series of articles.
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These, these articles exist listeners online.
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There are currently three of them available with a fourth one due to be published soon.
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And believe it or not, by the end of this podcast,
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there may even be a number five because we don't know if this is closed yet.
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However, on October 14th, 2025, Donna published part one of her series
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about her experience and literally her honest experience.
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Everything that we've talked about up to this point was published within the article.
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Apex's response to this article, the very next day,
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was, please pause any further media rollout until a meeting.
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The reason they gave was the damage this article has done to our brand is significant.
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Now let's. Mind you, this was not a request.
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It almost seemed to be a demand, as if they had some type of authority over
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Donna's ability to publicly and honestly log her experience.
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Does that make sense? Yeah, that's kind of how how I,
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and I was frankly appalled at their at their response,
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not just from a disability perspective, but just from a pure PR perspective.
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You know, the first when someone says you're not accessible or you've hurt me or your
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product has hurt me, or your service is not what it's supposed to be,
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I don't know a company in the world in an email that says,
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well, take it down until we can talk, I've never experienced that in my 30 years in
19:44
marketing. So that was unique.
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And at that point, I think we knew we were dealing with some unique people.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, we were those people.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Our contacts at that point had had spanned out from David Mayne to Katie Mcauliff and
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her attorney, Emmy Savenelli.
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Yeah. Yeah. And that was apparently the counsel,
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the legal counsel for apex who was also copied on these initial requests for us to
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take down Donna's initial post in which she described her experience with apex and
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exactly as we've described it, 21 word documents,
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no human assistance, no workshops, nothing that they actually promised for the
20:26
was delivered outside of 21 word documents, which were riddled with errors.
20:30
Okay. Other blind test takers begin to write to Donna at this point.
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They have had similar experiences with Pearson not necessarily just from
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cybersecurity and not necessarily from apex, but they had similar experiences trying to
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test with CompTIA exams through Pearson as a blind person.
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So they understood. But the difference is they didn't have they weren't advocates.
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They didn't have media dollars.
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They didn't have the ability to get on a podcast and talk about what's happened to
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them. So they were just stuck, much like Donna is currently stuck.
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We'll talk about that.
21:06
Okay. November 15th, 2025.
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Pearson reaches out because apex called them on her behalf.
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So this is the one positive thing that apex did.
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I don't know why they didn't do more positive things. It would have been wonderful. They
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could have been the hero of this. Thank you, apex.
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If only we could have worked together like this from the beginning, I believe, was your
21:28
response. That's right.
21:30
On November 18th, 2025 five questions were put to Pearson about why this happened.
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Were there sanctioned.
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All descriptions available for these diagrams.
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Yes or no? We just could not get a yes or no to that question.
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And I see now why. Because we were asking Pearson.
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And they're never going to answer that properly.
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But we now know that they should have.
21:56
So we put five questions to them.
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We got five Non-answers.
21:59
The best question that she asked was why was I unable to test and
22:03
they would not answer her.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I frankly, I was shocked at their request.
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And it wasn't a request.
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It was a demand. And I felt as if I was being pushed.
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You were you were.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I still wonder what that meeting.
22:19
And by the way, listeners, that meeting never took place because we.
22:22
Yeah, we'll get into why we denied it.
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But I, I think we know even after the second time when you did meet with them it turned
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out to be the very same thing. And it was just coercion,
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you know, take down what you've said about us,
22:34
change your story. And that's, that's just not.
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I don't know why they think you would do that. Especially you.
22:40
I mean, if they just did a quick Google search, I think they'd know who you are.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think I kind of thought they felt this little Canadian lady,
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you know, we'll push her into a corner and she'll just,
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you know, do as we ask.
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Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, isn't that what they did with all of the people that contacted you and
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said they had the same issue?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
22:58
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's not. They push you anywhere. They just leave you there. Yeah.
23:01
There's no one to contact. There's no one to talk to. There's no. What did they do? They.
23:05
And you know what they'll say? We didn't do anything. That's exactly what you did. You
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didn't do anything.
23:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
23:11
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Exactly. That's right.
23:12
Okay, so we'll leave on that note.
23:14
December 8th, 2025, part two of your articles get published.
23:20
Now, at this point, we had stirred quite a pot with the first article.
23:24
I think a lot of people were very invested in the Apex program at this point.
23:31
But I think the first article began to change things.
23:34
And when the second article came out, I think they realized that this was not going
23:38
to end. Now, this is the point, generally where a mainstream company or PR
23:43
firm would bring outside help in to help fix this.
23:48
They did not do that. Katie McAuliffe and her legal staff continued to answer emails
23:55
themselves. Same day she emails the Cnib, asks them to read her articles.
24:01
Okay, so on December 8th, 2025, you emailed the Cnib and asked them to
24:07
read your articles. You want to talk about that before we continue?
24:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. I kind of thought, well, I got nothing to lose here.
24:15
And the Cnib is one of the main players re advocacy in Canada.
24:21
I have a good relationship with them.
24:23
And I thought, you know, I'm going to stir the pot a bit and see what
24:27
happens. So, you know, I decided.
24:28
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I'm sorry I didn't think of it. Frankly. It's a great idea.
24:32
It's a great idea. Yeah.
24:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And they responded right away.
24:35
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: They did. They did. Cnib reads them, writes a letter to Pearson themselves,
24:40
and asks her permission to send it, which we thought was awesome.
24:43
This is the first real assistance that we had received and it was very exciting and
24:48
sincerest thanks to the Cnib for all of their efforts on our behalf.
24:53
December 12th, 2025 Cnib s letter goes to Pearson Vue on our approval December 15 to
25:00
16. Pearson's tone changes.
25:02
Isn't that interesting?
25:04
Genuine retest options are provided and Donna agrees to sit the test again.
25:10
Now I ask you if you're listening at this point,
25:13
would you sit the test again?
25:15
I just want you to sit with that. Just think about it. You don't have to answer. Both
25:19
certifications were in her scholarship, so she asks apex for the Security Plus
25:24
curriculum as well. And guess what happens at that point?
25:27
I'll let Donna tell you what happens when she asks for the Security Plus curriculum.
25:32
What happens? Donna?
25:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I was told, you know, your scholarship is no longer available.
25:39
Those were their words.
25:40
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No longer available. Not that it's been revoked.
25:43
Not that we've removed it for saying honest things about us,
25:46
just that it is no longer available.
25:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. So then I which.
25:52
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Begs the question.
25:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
25:54
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Which begs the question, why is my scholarship no longer available?
26:00
And what did they say when you asked that question?
26:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because of the article that was published.
26:06
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: They literally admitted it in an email said because of the article you published. And
26:09
their exact quote was, you've made us the enemy.
26:13
Now I ask you if you're listening so far, I don't like the word enemy,
26:17
but take a look at what's going on here.
26:19
Okay? Take a look at what Donna is trying to do.
26:22
She's attempting to get a degree that any sighted person would have walked out of
26:25
Pearson with that day.
26:27
And we're still here and they still say things like this.
26:31
So at this point, I think they become weapons.
26:34
That's my that's my personal view.
26:36
Okay. January 13th, 2026.
26:39
Katie McAuliffe, VP of operations CC Counsel Emmi Savinelli says the scholarship is no
26:44
longer available. So this is direct copied to her attorney.
26:49
I don't understand this position at all, but this is literally how open people can be
26:56
about you being honest about true public journalism,
26:59
about saying what really happens to you, whether you're,
27:02
you know, whether it's accessible or whether you slipped on the floor or they're out there
27:07
to make sure that you don't tell the truth.
27:10
And I hope that's what everyone takes away from today.
27:14
Apex cancels its top tech tidbits sponsorship after I publicly back her.
27:18
This happened a few days later.
27:22
I run a newsletter called Top Tech Tidbits.
27:24
We have sponsors that keep that newsletter funded.
27:28
Apex was a sponsor of Top Tech tidbits prior to any of this happening.
27:33
And we had great reviews of them and people loved them and everything was great about
27:38
them. And this is why I was so very happy when Donna received the scholarship,
27:42
because I thought these good vibes were going to be transferred on to her,
27:46
and instead we were treated to this.
27:49
So, you know, I do understand it, but again,
27:51
publicly you claim to support blind and low vision persons.
27:56
You claim to support disability, but the moment the truth is exposed,
28:01
rather than fixing that and making that what those people need,
28:05
you simply pull your funding.
28:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. That's what they did.
28:10
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's, that's what they do. Honestly, Donna, that's what they do. But okay.
28:15
On Archie's advice, Donna writes, asking why silence and then a meeting
28:20
request. Now you want to talk about arch and what arch is and how they help you.
28:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Arch is I don't really know what it stands for,
28:29
but it's called the Arch Disability Law Centre of Toronto,
28:33
and they take on very interesting cases dealing with
28:39
human rights, dealing with.
28:40
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Accessibility and sometimes pro
28:42
bono. If the case.
28:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Most times it's pro bono.
28:45
Okay. So they decided, I decided to ask for their advice,
28:50
and they told me, write a letter to them asking for clarification and that.
28:54
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: In other words, why is my scholarship no longer available?
28:57
Yeah, that's the question that we're going to ask. Okay. Yeah.
29:00
Okay. Before February 3rd, Cnib steps up again,
29:03
connects her straight to CompTIA, who grants her a full security plus credit.
29:08
So now, mind you, at this point, apex took apex taketh away,
29:13
and CompTIA giveth.
29:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right.
29:16
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Which was very nice. Okay, so now we've got CompTIA.
29:19
Okay. Obviously doing the right thing and apex continuing to do the wrong thing.
29:26
February 3rd, 2026. The call.
29:29
You decided to take a call with them.
29:32
They wanted to meet with Donna and I initially.
29:36
Together and I was. And I agreed to that call.
29:38
I said fine. We had an argument over who was going to set up the call because whoever set
29:44
up the call would own the recording.
29:46
And I spoke with my legal counsel and Donna spoke with her legal counsel.
29:50
And we agreed that we wanted to own the recording if we were going to have the
29:53
meeting. It was our hope that this would prevent them from attempting to bully us or
29:59
make us take down any further articles or anything.
30:02
You know, we just thought if you're being recorded, you're going to be as honest as you
30:05
can be. That was our thought. So we requested that.
30:08
And with some dissatisfaction, we got that accommodation and they said,
30:12
sure, you can own the recording.
30:14
Okay. So we go ahead and we attempt to set up that meeting.
30:18
And the very first thing that Katie McAuliffe says to us is please provide us with an
30:22
agenda for the meeting.
30:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true.
30:25
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And I said, no. And Donna and I sat with that.
30:28
You know, we sat and we you and I talked about that.
30:31
And we we have no agenda.
30:34
There's we don't have an agenda.
30:36
We all all Donna did was write about her experience.
30:38
What Donna would like is your assistance in getting a cyber security degree.
30:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right.
30:43
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You know, so not sure what we were supposed to talk about.
30:46
We were rather offended, and we just felt like we were going to waste
30:48
time with them trying to coerce us, even on a recording.
30:52
So I decided, I advised her that I wasn't going to take the call,
30:55
and I didn't think she should either.
30:58
Donna, however, being who she is, decided to take the call anyway.
31:02
Which is which is which is fine.
31:05
That that's exactly her right.
31:06
Unfortunately, it went as we thought it would go,
31:09
but yes, it was valuable because it proved it.
31:13
And it taught me a lesson that you should go through with things even when you know,
31:17
they're sabotage. And that's odd to me.
31:20
But again, advocacy lesson of this podcast.
31:23
So the call opening question when, Donna, what's on your agenda today?
31:28
That's the first thing they asked you. What is your agenda today?
31:33
And your reply was, I actually felt sick.
31:36
And then they said, yes, Donna, we cancelled your scholarship because
31:39
of the articles that you wrote about us.
31:41
You've made us the enemy.
31:43
That's an exact quote.
31:45
I'm going to read that again. Yes, Donna, we cancelled your scholarship because
31:48
of the articles that you wrote about us. You've made us the enemy.
31:52
I was just I was appalled that not only that,
31:54
they they said that, but that they thought that that we are trying to make them the.
31:59
I don't know how you and I are profiting off this in any way whatsoever.
32:02
It's cost you a great deal.
32:04
I know it's cost me a great deal.
32:06
I'm really not sure how we're benefiting from this whole thing.
32:09
She withholds the credit until the very end of the call.
32:13
You want to talk about that?
32:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, indeed.
32:16
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh, indeed.
32:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, so after saying, you know, like it's not available,
32:21
but we will pay for your your, your exam if you take it again,
32:26
I, I ask how much are you going to give to me?
32:30
And they said, we can only give you 100 USD and the exam cost in
32:38
scholarship. It cost.
32:39
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Three, 95, something.
32:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Like that. Yeah.
32:40
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah.
32:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I made a slip here and I only received 100 CAD,
32:47
which is less than $50 U.S..
32:51
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Sure. Yeah. I got you.
32:52
Yeah. Yeah. Not not that they cared about any of those fees to begin with.
32:57
That's okay. Oh but you withheld the the news about CompTIA giving you a credit.
33:02
How did they respond when you told them that?
33:04
Was there any shift in their posture?
33:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, they took credit for what CompTIA was offering me.
33:10
They said, oh, we spoke to them and I sat there thinking,
33:13
you you're lying. You're not being honest.
33:16
You did nothing.
33:18
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I don't think they did.
33:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Personally, I don't think they did.
33:21
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I don't think they did. Well, on February 22nd,
33:24
2026, Donna publishes part three.
33:28
And part three has a subtitle.
33:30
Apex does not care about blind people.
33:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can only tell you how horrified I was at all of this.
33:38
I didn't think that these guys.
33:40
I thought they were reputable people, but I was wrong.
33:44
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It was very brutish, wasn't it?
33:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It was.
33:46
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I was amazed, frankly.
33:49
Okay, we move on to act five.
33:52
The cost and the long wait.
33:54
March 4th, 2026. Donna writes me.
33:57
Pearson is not responding to my request for updates on my scheduling.
34:01
Am I concerned? A wee bit.
34:04
March 9th, 2026. We decide to launch a GoFundMe in order to cover the rest of the
34:09
cost of Donna's exam. Right.
34:12
And I think we should stop and thank everyone who contributed.
34:17
I don't think we quite made it, but we definitely made up a couple of hundred
34:20
dollars that otherwise we would not have had.
34:23
Sincerest thanks to everyone.
34:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you everybody. Yeah, yeah.
34:26
Thank you.
34:27
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: April 24th, 2026. Apex practice tests not searchable.
34:32
Several answers wrong.
34:34
Many typos. I know you'd love to talk
34:35
about this part, right?
34:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, you know, you go into the practice test and I know for some,
34:43
you know, with regard to some of those questions,
34:46
their answers were not correct.
34:49
So I checked with my good friend AI and went through chat.
34:54
Yeah, yeah. And, and they confirmed that what my answers
34:58
were, were correct.
35:00
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Just imagine how difficult this was before the advent of AI and still is for many blind
35:05
people who don't use AI in that manner or have access to someone sighted who can use AI
35:09
in that manner, it's still very difficult.
35:11
You know, those programs are not accessible. There's a lot of copy and paste that is very
35:15
difficult as a blind person.
35:17
You know, it's access that many don't have is my point.
35:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I kind of kind of knew, you know what, this is not going to go
35:25
anywhere, But, you know, call me silly.
35:27
Call me whatever you. I would persevere and write the exam one more time.
35:34
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Which you did using the practice tests that we created rather than the ones that apex
35:39
provided. So that's correct.
35:40
May 23rd, 2026. Donna emails me and says her long time Pearson contact has retired,
35:48
and the replacement insists that all readers can handle diagrams.
35:53
Now, you have listened to the beginning of this podcast,
35:56
right? Everyone? Do you remember what happened to Donna the first time she sat for
36:00
that exam? But the replacement insists all readers can handle diagrams.
36:05
Okay, she reminds them the last one couldn't and says,
36:09
I'll let it go, but should we have let it go?
36:13
I don't know. Okay. In any case, we move on to May 27th,
36:18
2026, the second exam.
36:21
Now, this is the second time that Donna has sat for this exam,
36:24
by Andrew. Okay. It is 10 a.m..
36:27
She is a Pearson Professional Centre, Toronto East.
36:29
She has 270 minutes and every accommodation has been approved on paper.
36:35
You want to talk before we go into the details of that day?
36:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, you know, here again, we go in and you know,
36:43
they read all the pre document.
36:47
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: They take your Kleenex again.
36:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. No, not this time.
36:51
No no no no no, they didn't, they didn't change bags
36:54
or anything like that.
36:55
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay.
36:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You know, along the line they were always friendly,
36:59
always very proficient at what they were saying and doing.
37:03
And then I met my reader and she sounded older than the other reader.
37:10
And so we go into the exam and then comes the big wave when she sits down and opens up the,
37:18
the exam and off we go.
37:20
And right away I know.
37:22
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Guess what, everyone Yes.
37:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Nothing has changed.
37:27
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Diagrams again. And diagrams are being described by a person who has never seen
37:33
them before today.
37:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. And you don't have a reader and a recorder?
37:38
The reader is the recorder.
37:40
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You were approved for a reader and a recorder that is recorded in your accommodation.
37:44
However, they only provided one person and assigned both roles.
37:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. So Donna makes up her mind after question to Donna.
37:54
You're not going to be successful at this exam.
37:57
Why? It's the same thing over and over again.
38:03
But I thought, you know.
38:04
Well silly me. I'll take the bloody exam and just wander.
38:08
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Which you did what?
38:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You did what you did, and.
38:11
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And then your results certainly were given to you in some type of format that you could
38:15
read immediately. Right.
38:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
38:18
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well.
38:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They printed it off.
38:21
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh, they printed it. They printed it. Okay.
38:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I printed it off, handed it to me, and I said,
38:25
could you tell me what the
38:27
results are? Well we can't.
38:28
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Did I pass, did I not?
38:30
Could you imagine standing there, people?
38:32
Okay. Did I pass, did I?
38:33
And it's standing. It's in your hand, but you can't see it.
38:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. And they say we can't tell you.
38:38
I said, is it available online?
38:41
No, it's not online.
38:43
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And they can't tell you.
38:44
They're not allowed to speak it to you. Wow.
38:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, they did not do that.
38:48
So I had to wait and go outside with my friend and she read it to me.
38:53
Okay. And I will tell you, I failed, not by much,
38:58
but I walked out of there thinking, you know what?
39:01
I have nothing more to.
39:02
I don't know what to say.
39:04
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I would just ask you if you're listening at this point,
39:08
what would you have done?
39:09
Would you have gone this far?
39:11
Would you have sat this exam twice?
39:16
And we're not done yet.
39:17
Just just mind you, we're we're not done yet.
39:19
Okay. May 29th, 2026 Donna begins drafting a letter to Pearson and CompTIA.
39:27
June 24th, 2026. Oh, this is the point where we wrote directly to Todd Thibodeau,
39:34
CEO of CompTIA. Or at least we thought he was,
39:37
and Gary Gates Pearson Vue senior people copied on both sides,
39:42
not a support form. She writes to offer help,
39:45
not to complain. I'm going to stop and talk about this point here because this was a
39:50
lesson for me. I got angry people.
39:54
I don't have a disability myself.
39:55
Not an official one. I live with a very complex condition.
39:59
That bothers me daily.
40:01
But I do not have a certified disability and I cannot,
40:05
I cannot imagine the anger and the frustration that Donna must have felt.
40:10
I know that I felt it and I gave up, I stopped,
40:13
I will say I gave up, I really did, and I should not have.
40:16
And this is where Donna did not give up.
40:18
She decided to write to the CEO of.
40:21
Ceo. We didn't know who we were writing to, frankly. I mean, we did our best to find
40:24
these contacts. We later learned, I think, that Todd was not the CEO of CompTIA
40:28
anymore. We'll talk about that in a minute. But we basically gathered these emails and,
40:33
and tried to speak to as many people as we possibly could.
40:37
Just giving them links to the articles that we've written, what Donna has been through
40:42
etc.. And this is what I should have supported her in doing and I did not.
40:47
So if you want to be an advocate, this is the point where you learn the lesson
40:51
that never give up means never.
40:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely true. But you know what?
40:59
I have lived all my life as an advocate.
41:02
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I know.
41:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know, and I think for you.
41:05
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's a wonderful lesson for me, Donna. It really is.
41:07
I, I applaud you for writing that email.
41:09
I thought, oh my God, here she goes.
41:10
She's going to get her heart broken again, you know?
41:14
So at what? When is she going to give up?
41:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No no no no more.
41:19
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Never never no, I, I and I'm glad you didn't because here's what happened people.
41:23
July 9th, 2026. Comptia replies.
41:26
Yeah and drops it. Network plus is available in a Jaws compatible format designed for
41:32
independent completion.
41:34
I'm sorry. Just in case you didn't hear that,
41:37
Network Plus is available in a Jaws compatible format designed for independent
41:43
completion. No human reader needed, end quote.
41:47
Wow. Wow. I think it was.
41:50
I think there was a guy named Aaron that said something a couple of years ago that that had
41:53
to exist. I don't know who that guy was.
41:56
They asked two questions.
41:57
Your reaction? I told you so, I knew it.
42:00
I was very happy to hear that this existed.
42:03
I don't know why it was not provided to Donna or presented,
42:06
but amazing nonetheless.
42:09
July 27th, 2026. Donna answers both in full and confirms that she was never denied jaws.
42:16
Now, this was an important distinction that we had to make.
42:20
She wasn't. She argued back and forth quite a bit about it.
42:23
In fact and the deciding factor for Donna was that there would be no technician on site
42:29
that day. And she had issues in the past with her law degree with jaws.
42:34
Taking it with jaws and there being no technician on site,
42:37
they had to call someone and then she had to come back and test a different day.
42:42
Anyone who has sat for one of these tests know the commitment that it takes,
42:46
the mental commitment and the preparation, and it's not something that you really want
42:50
to do more than once, if you can help it.
42:53
You confirmed that you were never denied jaws,
42:55
but that you were steered away from it. You want to talk about that?
42:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. What happened? They, you know, they strongly recommended that we I
43:04
use one of their readers to do it.
43:06
They never came out right.
43:08
And said that jaws that that the exam was available in an accessible format by using
43:15
jaws never, ever said that.
43:18
So that was a shocker to me.
43:19
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I arrived at Adana purely out of logistics.
43:23
I, I, I just assumed that from the top, if you,
43:26
you know, CompTIA being the large at the time we thought not nonprofit organization that
43:32
they were maybe that was our assumption that they would have to provide this type of
43:40
formatting for diagrams specifically.
43:43
I just, I don't know how you could possibly sell a test and call it accessible if you
43:47
don't. And it's just interesting that it wasn't that they weren't available.
43:51
It was simply that for whatever reason, Pearson was not using them or did not want to
43:57
steer you toward it for some reason.
43:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.
44:01
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, so July 28th, 2026 Comptia's entire reply.
44:06
Thank you for your helpful feedback.
44:08
We will look into this CompTIA legal.
44:12
Now I just want to mention that that ends CompTIA Legal.
44:15
So this is the legal team for CompTIA that reached out to us,
44:19
not the CEO or anyone that we actually reached out to.
44:23
But it yeah, it seems to have fallen to CompTIA legal team.
44:27
And there's a bit about that at the end.
44:29
You said to me on that day, I'm not going to hold my breath.
44:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. I'm not going.
44:34
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No, no. At this point, I don't think anyone would expect you to.
44:39
All right. Let's talk about where all of this lands right now.
44:45
And some things that we might want to look back at that you and I didn't realize at the
44:49
time. Today the Apex program now trades as Access Cyber LLC,
44:56
part of enterprise KC and Nova Coast is no longer named anywhere on the site.
45:03
Now. Yeah, we can take that for what it's worth.
45:06
It's site today promises the following quote built from the ground up to be accessible
45:10
first 247365 access to expert guidance and An instructor in 24 hours or less.
45:18
How's that sound? Donna, would you like to be a part of that
45:21
program? It sounds kind of.
45:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sounds.
45:24
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Nice.
45:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Doesn't it? I don't think so.
45:26
I mean, like what? First of all, why were they sold by Nova
45:30
Coast to this other.
45:31
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, we don't know. We can speculate all we want. And who knows?
45:36
I think from the background that you and I got,
45:38
I don't think they had any idea what they were doing trying to assist blind people,
45:43
frankly. For whatever reason they took on the project,
45:47
they did not put someone in charge who knows and understands the needs of a blind person,
45:53
even if someone on that team was
45:55
blind. God forbid.
45:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I.
45:57
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Agree. So, so very, very difficult there.
46:01
The last portion of this that makes this interesting. I think,
46:05
I don't think it's had anything to do with it,
46:07
but it's something I want to mention. Comptia certification business is owned by H.i.g.
46:11
Capital and Thoma Bravo.
46:15
Now, we didn't know that and that actually took place.
46:19
Believe it or not. On November 4th, 2024, which was yeah,
46:26
just a few weeks, three weeks before you were given your scholarship.
46:30
So CompTIA, up until three weeks before you were given your scholarship was not a for
46:36
profit structure, as I understand it.
46:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
46:39
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: But it became one. Now, how that affects us today and perhaps why
46:44
we're hearing back from CompTIA Legal instead of the actual CEO,
46:48
etc. that might shed some light on that.
46:52
Who knows? But this leaves us.
46:56
Where does this leave us, Donna?
46:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh God help us, I don't.
47:01
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Where does this where does.
47:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This.
47:03
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Leave us? I get you. You have to answer that.
47:05
Where does this leave you?
47:06
I guess I should say I know that article number four is going to come out,
47:10
which is going to explain everything up to this point.
47:14
Yeah, but with you now waiting for CompTIA Legal to get back to you,
47:18
what are your honest thoughts?
47:19
Would you ever sit a third time?
47:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think so. I mean, I, I, as I said to them in my letter,
47:29
this is a marvelous way to open up new career opportunities.
47:33
And that's this is what had interest in me.
47:36
I also thought we could bring this program to Canada,
47:39
but it has drained me.
47:41
Honestly, I don't know if I have the energy.
47:45
I don't know if I have any respect.
47:47
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I don't know if I would recommend that you do.
47:50
Frankly, I, I just don't see any way that.
47:54
What are they? Maybe they come back with Donna. Here's a certificate.
47:57
We assure you all will be well this time.
47:59
And no offense. That's what they said the second time. Yeah.
48:02
How many how many times should we believe that they will fix the process so that you
48:07
can test excessively? You know.
48:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't know. I mean, like, I'm not really prepared to to battle
48:15
anybody anymore. Not in this case.
48:18
I just think we've done the best we can.
48:21
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So why then should we get on this podcast today and regale people with this wonderful
48:27
tale of accessibility?
48:29
What's the point then? What did we get out of this,
48:31
Donna? What did we what did we learn and what did we provide to others?
48:36
You you said something along the line of, I am not the point.
48:39
I was never the point that blind test takers wrote to you that they had the same
48:44
experience. Yeah. And that you wanted to use your voice and your advocacy in ways that
48:49
they could not. And I think that's, that's, that's the point of these four
48:54
articles. That's the point of this podcast today.
48:56
That is why I have done a, a reverse grilling of Donna today to give
49:01
everyone an idea of, of how she felt and what she has gone through during this process and
49:06
what real advocacy and change looks like.
49:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Advocacy has a cost to it, and that is it's a hidden cost.
49:14
And people don't realize that.
49:16
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And it's not always progress as you would measure it.
49:19
No, no. Sometimes it's just for articles and a terrible situation that you put out there.
49:24
But the next blind person that goes to take a test or has a problem with Pearson or
49:29
searches online and, and sees what you went through,
49:34
I think it will change their experience.
49:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope it does. I hope that we have done something here that will benefit
49:42
anybody going.
49:43
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Amen.
49:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Or it may turn them away.
49:48
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It may. What I would love to see, I would love to see Pearson,
49:52
CompTIA and such programs, whether they are targeted towards blind
49:56
people or not, come together to take accessibility seriously.
50:00
The entire process, not just to the end of your organization,
50:04
but throughout the end of the experience for the user.
50:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree, but will it be
50:10
done? I don't.
50:11
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Know. I doubt it. Donna, I.
50:13
Frankly, I doubt it. And how to get it done outside of funding it yourself.
50:18
If I knew the answer to that.
50:19
Well, the world would be a different place.
50:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I'm not prepared to put any more of my own personal funds into this.
50:26
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I don't blame you, Donna.
50:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I'm not willing. No.
50:31
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So if anyone listening today has any questions about this or any other aspects of
50:37
this process that we went through, please reach out to Donna.
50:40
Feel free to do so. I'm sure she'll be happy to respond.
50:44
And thank you so much for your time and energy today.
50:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Quite a journey, Aaron.
50:50
Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Quite a journey, Miss Donna.
50:54
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com.
51:01
Until next time.