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Baby Gay: The Second Adolescence No One Prepared You For · Unbox Yourself: Coming Out Later in Life with Samantha Fox®

• Samantha Fox: Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. today's episode of Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, I'm joined by a woman in her ⁓ 40s Kat. ⁓ to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. ⁓ From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, Kat: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Samantha Fox: So when we chatted you ⁓ came up this really great awareness about this baby gay term seemed to land on you in a way that was like, what the fuck? ⁓ Like, I need to earn something before I can be like an actual gay. ⁓ Kat reached out to me, like so many women do, at a point in time where she was having her woman-loving woman awakening agreed come on the to have a conversation about one of the questions she asked me about being a baby gay. Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory? Kat: END Samantha Fox: sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. Kat: like being in like Girl Scouts, you have to get badges or something. Samantha Fox: Yeah, so tell me was it a particular episode that you were listening to that sparked that thought for you? ⁓ Kat: So. I'd heard the term gay before I started to listen to the Unbox Yourself podcast and it had come upon like my algorithm was bringing me more and more of that kind of content. So I would hear it on Instagram reels a lot. This sort of baby gay, baby gay, gay. And I guess it kind of, I started about it about what Samantha Fox: And why, you're gay, do you have to go through a stage where you're a baby gay, whereas when you're straight, there is no baby straight? ⁓ so I thought this was a great place to start a conversation about what it means to ⁓ out ⁓ to come in ⁓ yourself later in life. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Thanks so much for being here. Kat: that terminology meant and what it meant to people who are in like women in my position and also what it meant to actually like women and people who are already in you know in the community it's a weird duality I think because to me it kind of because when you are hit this realization ⁓ about your sexuality and you've been living a completely heterosexual life, you're married, you're doing all of that stuff and then you get hit by this freight train that comes through and you think, wow, and it's that undeniable realization. You suddenly step into this world, it's like being in total free fall and you're like, huh, what do do now? being described as a baby gay actually, it makes me laugh because I think, yep, okay, sounds about right. But then when I started to get to think about it more, I wondered how is that actually meant? Is meant affectionately? Or is there kind of a... If I say anything that causes eye rolls to anybody, I can only apologize now. I'm really just learning every day. So I'm sorry in advance if I say anything that makes people think, oh God. But is there like a... Do we stand out? Like a sore thumb? Like, can you just waltz into a room and say, hey guys, I'm gay. And everyone go, yeah, cool, come on in. Or do people go, oh no, hang on, you're one of those baby gays, we can see you. Like, how does it work? Because it's a lot to explore. So I that's sort of how I... Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kat: been thinking of late. Samantha Fox: Yeah. And when you were hearing those reels that kept using that term over and over, were you getting a sense that it was like an affectionate and like sweet term or did it feel like judgy or? Kat: On the whole, think it's quite affectionate. I like to interpret it like that because it seems to me as someone who, well, I think I describe myself to you as like an gay. I'm even baby gay. I haven't even been born. just embryonic. I am you know, coming less lonely. Samantha Fox: You're just multiplying cells at this point. Kat: Yeah, I guess I like to think of it as being generally. But as I followed and looked at the content made by other gay content creators, so there's British woman that I have followed lately and she's written a book and it's like almost like she's selling it like everything you need to know about dating women. So in my head then I was sort of like, okay, so my heterosexual for date, ⁓ haven't dated man in a long time. I've been ⁓ dating anyone, I'm married so I haven't dated anyone for ages. So, but in my head, it would be the same blueprint for meeting and dating. Yeah, you see, you're shaking your head. Okay. Yeah, okay. You shake your head. It's like, no, I'm a date woman. Like I date a man. Like I find someone I'd like them. We'd go out and things would develop. But then I think, oh, apparently this is not how you do it. Shit. I can't do it. I don't know how to do it. So that's it. That's where I'm at. So I'm like, oh, how do I do this? Samantha Fox: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, something to think about also, certainly not where you are, right? You're not, you're not. Kat: No. ⁓ no. No. don't even know how to dress myself anymore. It's everything I know is gone. ⁓ Samantha Fox: ⁓ Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, so true. It really is kind of starting all over. So do want to say the term baby gay definitely is an affectionate term. It's like a very sweet term. ⁓ sometimes it can be used when you are somebody who's been out for a while and you see very young women who gay. They're like 16. Kat: Young as in like chronologically young, okay, yeah. Samantha Fox: Yes, yes, yes. So that they're like, ⁓ they're coming into themselves. They're like little baby gays, you know, which is like a very sweet, it's like sweet to see. ⁓ it's like, just horrible. And like, ⁓ baby gays, you know, or like pride or something like that. It's just like, ⁓ this is, you know, it's, it's definitely a term of endearment. ⁓ For late bloomers. ⁓ Kat: you Yeah. Okay. Samantha Fox: It's actually a term that reflects what I'm going to call like a second adolescence. So went through ⁓ adolescence during time, during that phase in your life. ⁓ And that time, whatever was for you, ⁓ it seems if you had no idea that you were same sex attracted. ⁓ Or if you did, it was very rep... Kat: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: And that's not what you were working with. That's not the framework you were working within. And so you went through adolescence. For a lot of people, that time is feeling a lot of pressure around you. Like, what are your friends doing? What boys like your friends? What boys like you? there's a lot of ⁓ you know, trying to find whether or not you're kind of like a worthy, valuable female based on whether or not boys crushes on you and whatnot. And then that really exciting, you know, when that happens in your adolescence and you start to explore and you have your first kiss and maybe you to do more and whatever it is, but this is like you're discovering your sexuality, right, in your adolescence. This is a period of curiosity and exploration. But for people who come out later, whether they were fully embodied in this experience with boys or it was just because they were conditioned because of compulsory heterosexuality to believe that this is what they had to do. look, we are stimulated, our body responds. So they still had some kind of connection to some of their sexuality, but not the same kind as when you actually wake up to feeling desire, like you have desire, not I am desired by him. It's I want her, right? That is another adolescence. It's a second adolescence. You're truly coming into your desire. so, you know, so many of the women that I work with that are in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, they are feeling like they are 14. Kat: Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Samantha Fox: I mean, they can't get enough. are about the physical piece and being close and having skin contact and kissing and ⁓ whatever it is. I mean, in very adolescent way. ⁓ so being a baby gay for late in life-er is essentially going through your second adolescence. Kat: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Okay. So I mean, I can really get that. think I probably have a lot in common with many women. And I know it's a topic that you've covered a lot in your podcast and you've shared stuff about yourself as well. in my actual adolescence, when I was sort of 15, ⁓ the that I had suffered as a child, ⁓ it went on until like I was 15, 16 and it didn't all come out and it wasn't discovered until then. So my kind of formative part of my adolescence was very much by that. I don't think I really had any opportunity to know what in commas normal adolescent Samantha Fox: Yes. Kat: normal relationship forming, be it heterosexual or gay or whatever, you know, that was totally absent in my life. I can't remember which episode of your podcast it was on, but I recently heard you talking about this thing of how in hetero often the woman will reciprocate or respond to being the feeling of being desired. ⁓ Samantha Fox: Any sexualities? Yes. Kat: by the guy rather than actually considering her own desires are. So, yeah, so I think when you ⁓ that, maybe natural inclination of the ⁓ heterosexual and you juxtapose it against the impact of childhood sexual abuse, ⁓ Samantha Fox: Yeah, it's responsive versus spontaneous. Yes. Kat: and not being able to kind of have a normal childhood experience, it's a really powerful suppressant of your natural state. So it's not even really a matter of having to consciously suppress anything, it just happens. Samantha Fox: Absolutely. No. Yeah. Kat: So it's kind of wild now and I'm trying to look at everything, the situation I'm in now, kind of trying to look at it really positively in a sense, albeit... Holy shit, it's terrifying, but you know, it does feel adolescent. And then you take it in turn with this terminology of like baby gay, but it's kind of hard to fully embrace it because obviously you're navigating it alongside life as you know it. So baby gayness is... I don't know, it's kind of quite a good thing for me at the minute because I'm not actually in position to do anything else, you know. But this whole concept of, you know, I've been laughing to myself thinking, okay, you know, I'm walking down the street. I must look so straight. I must look like the straightest woman alive. When will that change? Can gay women tell? Can gay women look at me and go, she is so straight. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Kat: do they know. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. mean, yeah, these curiosities and these thoughts definitely do pop in and just going back to where you started. Yeah, I mean, I'm so sorry that you had to live through that. And I have my own experience. So I also understand the effects that it has ⁓ ⁓ sexuality and Kat: No. Samantha Fox: you know, for so many women, there's this feeling of like, well, because I was sexually abused, that's I'm gay. And, you know, that's the reason I'm having these feelings. You know, I just can't make it work because of that. And I don't believe in that. Kat: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: mean, I certainly even not trusting men ⁓ you know, after, you know, some experiences to feel like trust has been deeply ⁓ is very But, you know, what happens that Kat: Yeah. Bye. Samantha Fox: we're at a stage where we don't really have tools, we're just coming into ourselves. And when something like this happens when we're young, it really just keeps us being able to connect. I mean, along with all other conditioning that keeps us as women being able to connect to who we are, but then add this on top. Kat: Hmm. for Samantha Fox: we are born with our sexuality, know, I mean, whatever it is, and it might change and it might be fluid and that's also totally okay, but we're born with that. is our right to able to connect to it, but when this happens, that's taken away from us. And so I do really believe that, you know, when you have early childhood sexual abuse, it makes it harder to understand what your sexuality is. Kat: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, and I, you know, sure that there's a lot of different perspectives on this. I share insofar as I don't believe that being sexually abused as a child made me gay. think people are born the way they're born. I just think it stunts you in many ways. It's, ⁓ recovering from that is, you know, it's a process like anything else. Life is a process, isn't it? But I just think it made me Like it was just never a question ⁓ being able to explore that at the time that you would naturally. And, you know, I come, my family is amazing. I come from like a really wonderful, supportive, open family. So it was never like a case of, you know, don't feel like I could because of my family reaction. That's not the case at all. But because of ripple effects of what happened my family, I think I really desperately wanted seek... this is such a bad of putting this. like normality, inverted commas, normality. So just the path of least resistance, nothing that I didn't want to rock the boat in the family anymore. So, you know, I had a baby quite accidentally. That's story. I kind of was like, hi guys, hi family. It's me I have this infant, you know. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Kat: And then thereafter, I kind of got to about 30 and I met my now husband and he was so incredible. He is, he's a phenomenal man. And he loved me like warts and all. Does that make sense? So despite having this baby, I was like, I got this baby. And despite my challenging sort of start and the impact that that had had on me, he, he, he seemed to, he just wrapped around me. loved me. loves me unconditionally. And I don't know really, I think if I look back, think if I look back over the years and I'm honest with myself, I can take out a cadence where I've been like, yeah, like I really was to her or there was a spark with her. But as soon as it comes up, it's like snuffed out, you candle snuffer comes down and you just move on. So I don't quite ⁓ Samantha Fox: I think. Kat: really the moment now. don't know if it's like being in therapy for a while and you learn a lot about yourself, don't you? And all of a you come crash landing into your actual real world. Kind takes you out of the world you've been existing in and dumps you in what should be your real world. And you're like, my God, this is ⁓ so, it so good and so natural. And since we last sort of spoke, have told my husband and also told my and my mum. So I've of made little baby steps of progress and it's been super supportive. But once you say it, it's as if, OK, you've said and it's like all big and emotional. But then... Like my mum was like not, well, you know, that's fine darling, but you're married, so forget it. It you know, it was all about, you know, moving gently into the future and exploring what was right and how I to live and stuff. So it was wonderful, but it's like, I've said it and now everyone else has moved on. I'm just sitting it. Samantha Fox: Yeah, when you say you've said it, what is it that you said? Kat: I've told, I text my brother, text my brother and I went, I think I'm gay. And went, cool, cool. Do you want to meet for a drink? ⁓ yeah, really awesome. He's like four years younger than me. So a really, he's a great guy, but was like his reaction. And I asked him like, why, why was that your reaction? Samantha Fox: Gosh. Kat: And was like, well, what else would have been helpful to you? Like, it wouldn't have been helpful to you to say anything else. I just thought, cool, cool. It's like, no dramas. Samantha Fox: Wow, I love that for you. Kat: Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky and like my mum was really amazing. I kind of thought she'd steer me in a particular direction, but she didn't at all, which was amazing. And all been very accepting. My husband's, know, doing OK, but it's a lot to it? It's a lot for everyone to process. But I've kind of said it then. Yeah, life is just going on, so I'm back with it now on my own. Samantha Fox: Yes, which is very common. mean, and with your husband, you also said, I think that I'm gay or I'm gay or. Kat: I told him I'm attracted to women as well. It kind of went more down like the bisexual, which is a bit cowardly maybe. I do really to slow through this for him, you know. Samantha Fox: Okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very common to come out, especially to male partner, as bisexual or or I just want to know I'm attracted to women. And this happens ⁓ in couples that are sexually active. ⁓ Kat: Mm. Samantha Fox: So, you know, there's no real sexual intimacy happening and then the woman says, you know, I just want to let you know I'm attracted to women or I've realized I'm bisexual or whatnot. And it is not uncommon for men to say, okay, thanks for telling me. And then that's it. ⁓ even when it's I'm that is still a very common Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: which is just, OK, you know, and then you don't hear about it again. Kat: It's like, okay, what's for dinner? ⁓ So it's you kind of sit in this. Samantha Fox: Yes, basically. Kat: void them by yourself again. Samantha Fox: Well, that's part of why I have community because yes, ⁓ mean, essentially, And that's what's so hard about this ⁓ is you kind of to drill it in numerous times. actually, mean, even if are and You're not like, hey, I'm going to join a community, and I'm going to join some LGBTQ local events, and I'm going to try to start to understand myself more in this way and really see what this means for me and also for us and for you. But if that's not part of the conversation, it's kind of like, I'm gay. And they're just like, OK, that's cool. for a lot of men, it's, want to invite a woman into the bedroom with us? That's a very common one too. Right. Kat: Yeah, no. Yeah, no thank you. Samantha Fox: Right. But I mean, some women go for that because it feels like it's just a way for them to the experience and they don't see any other way. And so some women do end up going for that and then realizing, yeah, that really didn't work for me. So. ⁓ Kat: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of hard to. when you hold the whole like baby gay. status. you're doing that in the context of being still married really ⁓ not where that's to go and how that's going to look. And it's like you're having to come out over and over again to keep that ⁓ moving forward. Samantha Fox: Yes. I still come out and I've been out for 25 years. So, I mean, I was at the vet the other day she said, you know, something about my husband, you know, it's like, ⁓ yeah, it's just assumed. And I think I'm pretty noticeably ⁓ Kat: Yeah, there's assumption there, isn't there? ⁓ How did you, how did you, do you correct people or do you just let it ride? Samantha Fox: usually I correct people with her. just didn't say anything because I was paying her for her time. But usually I do correct people. ⁓ Or I don't even give them a chance to even say that. just say it. I just tell them I'm gay. ⁓ But like, usually as soon as they say it, I'm like, ⁓ no, I'm gay. Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: But, you know, but coming out is something, it's not a one and done ever. after you're fully out, even though you might end up 10 years from now looking a lot more gay than you feel like you do right now, you will have to come out. Kat: No. sure. don't feel at liberty to do all the stuff that's in my head and that out consideration for my husband really because like you're to catch up with your own life and he is certainly running to catch up now and I don't want to be five years further ahead in my thought process and for him to be hearing things the fact. I was really anxious about coming. I really to have this conversation with you today and it was really cool to be on a podcast and things, but I was thinking, ⁓ my God. what are the statistical possibilities of him or anyone I know hearing this? Because I don't want to be saying much other people before I've had the courage to say it to him. But then the other part of me feels like I'm going to explode. like if you imagine being, like a balloon when it gets too much air in it and it feels like you're The seams of your life are literally like bursting and you have to keep it all in, but you want to tell everybody and then the people I've said it to, it comes out of my mouth so naturally to say it. you know, it doesn't, I feel no, I feel no I feel like I make so much more sense, but I think, shit, that's like a fantasy world. You've got to stay in your real world at the minute. Samantha Fox: Yes. Kat: and make sure everyone's okay. Make sure that it doesn't get too big too quick. Make sure it doesn't escape you. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, what's your main concern if you were because you you are ahead of what you have shared ⁓ with him. And so what is your main What is your number one concern about Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: being more honest with him just about what it is that you're feeling. I've just, not I'm also attracted to women. It's think only attracted women. ⁓ Kat: Yeah. I guess... difficult for me to put them in. order of priority. I think, you know, a of the concerns will be a universal concern about women, the same as every woman that has been in this position. And I know that, you know, I am in by no means a unique position. So I know that part of your program and stuff is about learning to almost turn the spotlight onto exactly what your own needs are. And I can't myself to do that quite So I know what I want and I know what it does to my nervous system being around women. I know how I feel like if I meet a woman that I think there's a spark there with. You know, know what it is. But ⁓ I also ⁓ that what is happening now is not my husband's fault. So I know that he You know, he's written me this letter and it's beautiful. But it's almost like he's apologizing for things that he doesn't need to apologize for. You know, this is not, it's not a reflection on him as a man or a husband. So it's wanting to acknowledge like his pain. And I know that there will be pain. I'm so sorry if I'm getting a bit emotional about it. ⁓ Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. God. Kat: I know there's going to be pain in the future. I know it's coming. But I want to kind of go move towards that with him and go through it with him and always have the conversations honestly, even if they're hard. You know, it was hard telling him, but he was the first person that I told and... Samantha Fox: Hmm? Hmm? Yeah. Kat: know, he's in a really crazy position because I suppose if your wife is telling you, you know, she's attracted to women. was trying to think, well, if shoe was on the other foot, if the situation was reversed, how would I? How would I process this? the honest answer is I don't, I don't know. But I think it's something that can't all be fixed. So I'm really anxious about Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Kat: You know, as we have through our lives together so far navigated everything. So I still see it as a process to go through together rather than a lap, like informing him of updates along the way. ⁓ by the way, this is this now. And by the way, just FYI, you know, as part of that, I feel unable to step into. even spending with other women in a similar position because I feel like it's so super disloyal. Samantha Fox: So even so exploring yourself where you're not stepping into anything other than doing some self exploration or community and being around other women that are going through this, he also knows that you are doing that because you're trying to figure things ⁓ that still feels disloyal. Kat: Yeah. I think... It's the intent maybe. it's difficult to... for him it will be like, what's the intent behind it? And he's not, you know, he's not fantastic emotionally. Like it's difficult. I think all guys to a degree struggle to meet women where they want to be met. I think only really women have the power to do that actually. It's very rare that a man can come down with you, you know. So I think will just see it as, you know, she's doing this, what is what's her intention? Is it is big? Is it because she's moving towards ending the marriage? Is it because she's trying to figure out a way of staying in the marriage or whatever? Samantha Fox: So it's black and white. It's a little more black and white than the nuance of ⁓ I have feelings. I realize I have these feelings. I realize these feelings do impact our relationship in some way, but I'm not quite sure how. ⁓ And I'm do some deeper exploration work with Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: to try to understand how, and I will keep you in the loop along the way. So not black and white, right? You're in a nuanced space. yeah, very nuanced. And that is very much part of this journey is the nuance. I mean, it's like heart. Kat: very human. Samantha Fox: heart-expanding and heart-breaking at the same time. And you have to be able to hold both because there's all kinds of painful emotions at the same time that there's all of these really exciting emotions. And so... you know, I heard you say, you know, like engaging the program, like I have the Unbox Your Sexuality program, engaging in that helps you ⁓ of focus on what your needs are. But that is the very end program where you've actually done a lot of deep work. Kat: Good. Yeah. Samantha Fox: unpacking and unlearning things so that you can actually arrive to a point where you even know what your needs are, because it's hard to know what our needs are. So it's a long process that usually takes quite a bit of time. And yeah, just was curious like what makes it hard. to share with him that it's not that you're also attracted to women. Kat: I think it's his panic so you can... this sort of conversation between. a married couple. requires, in my opinion, exceptional levels of communication. thought all sorts of things and ⁓ listened to episodes of the podcast about ethical ⁓ and know that there are all sorts of different situations, all of different people at work and it's certainly no judgement from me but my view on ⁓ relationships as whole and I feel like it would be the same if I was in a relationship with a woman. it would be a monogamous one, like that's what I crave, that's what I seek. So be it heterosexual or gay, whatever. So the idea of... And I know that that is what my husband feels as well. I feel like there's no go areas. So there's ideas that I can't even verbalise. Because don't want to make him feel any more worried than probably already is. yeah, I don't know how to really... Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kat: explore how we move forward. And I don't want to just pull the plug. Because then, because I'm also, I have absolutely no idea how to what's ahead, you know, nevermind what I'm dealing with, what we are dealing with here and now. If Paul fell off the face of the planet tomorrow, like if everything as I know it ceased to be and I literally had a clean slate, I'd still be like, holy shit, women, what do I do? You know, not as simple as just walking out of your life and to anyway. Samantha Fox: Right. Though I know that you would figure it out. Kat: I'd build myself a shelter out of twigs in the woods and sit in it and think about things for a while ⁓ then come out with ideas and try them. ⁓ I'd figure it, but again, and then this circles right back around to the baby gay thing. Like you can't just say, I'm gay and then Samantha Fox: Ha ha! Yeah. Kat: it be like can't just put your heterosexual relationship roadmap onto a gay relationship and it work. I don't know why that is. ⁓ Samantha Fox: I you know, look, I my own personal experience was that I was only ever with men at 32. I met a woman. And I was like, Holy shit, I'm gay. I'm not straight. And you know, I did explode everything. I was very young and you know, yeah, bombed it out bombed my whole life out. In, you know, lived through lots of devastation. And Kat: You literally dropped a bomb on it. Samantha Fox: ⁓ and also had a female partner for eight years that I was with and she also had never been with a woman. ⁓ And figured out that we're gay together ⁓ and it was very fun. there certainly people who said like, well, you've only ever been with men, now you're with a woman, ⁓ you be gay, you're bisexual. Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: And I said, no, actually I'm gay. Like I'm sure I'm gay. And I've never been with a man again. ⁓ And so I do think that you can you're gay. You're still a baby gay, but know, like I was a baby gay, but I was fully gay. ⁓ Kat: you. Yeah. Samantha Fox: even though there was a lot to unlearn a lot to understand about what being a gay woman in the world even means and what privileges straight people ⁓ that I that ⁓ Kat: Yeah. Samantha Fox: didn't have anymore once I was gay. I mean, just there's just so much to understand. And so if you're going to go into a community that is a lifelong lesbian community, where everyone has been out from the time they were 14, and just come in on your horse and say like, I'm gay, know, like I'm ready to date somebody, I'm gay, you know. Kat: Yeah. Samantha Fox: they're they're gonna be like, Whoa, you know, like, keep your horse parked in like the stall over there. Yes, but but are so many women come out later. There are so many later in life lesbians. ⁓ Kat: This is what I mean! So much... This not happen to does it? It just, you just are. I think therefore I am. Samantha Fox: That's because of the heteropatriarchal constructs of compulsory heterosexuality. that's the only reason that there is none of that. It's because once you pop out of the womb, you're deemed straight. There's never any question about what you are. And that's a construct. Kat: Yeah. Yeah, I can see it. I can see it. It's weird, you know, because until this last, until this year, whatever point this year that this has happened to me, all the stuff that you're talking about now, it never even dawned on me that, like, this was the lived experience of women. Like, I, you know, I always thought myself as being quite a feminist and yada yada yada. Samantha Fox: for control. Yes. Kat: But it's not until you really start looking and thinking, I didn't even think about travel for gay women. I reading something today about you like the privilege of heterosexuality, you can just travel anywhere and everything's fine. You can't do that safely. Like you just don't consider these things. Samantha Fox: Yeah, so with that, that's where the baby gay comes from. It's like I've got a lot learn. I'm to have a lot of new experiences. ⁓ Kat: Woo! Yeah, and until you're brought in front of the high lesbian priestess and declared to be fully lesbian, you've got to learn. Samantha Fox: Yeah, and even today, honestly, I can tell you, I have a number of close friends that are later in life lesbians that did marry men, that did have children, that ended up divorced and that have been partnered with women for over two decades. And I also have community of women who don't have kids, who have always been gay. And there is, you know, there is like, like a stronger understanding emotionally and connection for me with women that came out later. Because I've lived more than one experience, whereas these women that came out from the beginning, they've only lived the gay experience. So they've had to fight their way through from the beginning. They've had to fight to take up space and to have a voice and to be seen and to be valued and valid and all of this. They might have had Kat: Mmm. you Samantha Fox: Their families might have disowned them. Who knows? They might have had a hard time getting a job. They might have had to been their sexuality at work. ⁓ There's so many things, so many ways discrimination has affected them in their lives that I did not have. I started straight. And so ⁓ when I'm a group of all the lifelong lesbians, I still can feel, even though I've been out for such a long time, Kat: Yeah. Samantha Fox: kind of different, like it is its own subset. Those of us that live this, you know, heteronormative, compulsory, heterosexuality created life for a period of time and then wake up to that also, we have to do a lot of work to exit that. You have to... Kat: Yeah. Thank Yeah, sure. Samantha Fox: be checking in with yourself and understand what's going on to, like you said, like, here's this man that you love that's a good man, like, in order to, like, figure out how to exit that and move into a new life, there is so much transformation and work and loss and grief and excitement. I mean, it's a lot. And that these women didn't go through that. These other people who came out. these lifelong lesbians that are the priestess of the lesbians and whatnot, ⁓ go through that. They went through something different. Kat: I feel very reverent those women when they hear you talking about them like that. Like there's, you know, the really walking so I can run. Samantha Fox: Yeah! Exactly. Kat: Yeah, I can see that. And. That kind of puts my... Yeah, I can see how fitting the baby gay label is. Samantha Fox: Yeah, they never rode on any curtailes of privilege from heteronormativity. Kat: No. And it actually makes... gosh, this might be controversial. I apologize anyone that thinks it is controversial, but I think that I, know, do bit of catastrophizing every day over the position I now find myself in, soul searching. ⁓ my God, this is the worst thing. How am I going to deal with this? But in actual fact... Is it relatively simple by comparison to what the women have been out their whole lives, but in the context of decades by where there was less tolerance and you know, it's not such a bad position to be in, it? When you're just having to figure it out for yourself, like look at the way my family have. loved me. Like it's okay. Samantha Fox: Yeah, and I think the piece where ⁓ get very caught up in, which is understandable when you really love someone, is not wanting them to be in pain, not wanting to hurt them. Thankfully, you have an entire family who is extremely loving, supporting, and embracing, it seems. And you're very worried about your spouse. ⁓ Kat: Yeah. Samantha Fox: and what this will mean for him. I what a lot of people miss is just that living with this keeping it down is also affecting him. Kat: Yeah, must be. It must be. Samantha Fox: Yeah, because not fully ⁓ you are. You know, he's not able to really access all of you. also he deserves, just like everybody deserves, if you're going to have a partner, you deserve to have a partner who's fully themself, who actually desires, deeply desires them and cannot wait to jump into bed and rip off your clothes and, you get all up in all the stuff. mean, you know, Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Open all the stuff. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Yeah, like, like, like everybody deserves that, you know, I mean, know, it's part of partnering. I mean, it's, it's, it's a piece of the pie, let's say it doesn't have to be the piece of your pie, but it is a piece of your pie. And if it's, if you're, if you're feeling like it's a chore, or, you know, it's something you, you, you committed to doing for a lifetime, because you married a person and like, this is what you are supposed to do. I mean, this is, you know, it's not because you're enjoying it or you want it or you desire it or, you know, that's not really fair either. Kat: Amen from Muflister, yeah? I know, I ⁓ agree. I think it's just the way you carry this weight of responsibility when you know that know I am now the woman that I him to. Samantha Fox: Right. of course you're not. In a million you're not. Like in the last decade that you've been together, you will have changed in ways and grown. And also, know where the fault is in this is we can your abuse because that kept you from being able to know yourself earlier. ⁓ Kat: Bye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: ⁓ That's where the fault is. It's not on you. You haven't done anything wrong. You had no choice. You didn't know. You had no way to connect to yourself. If we're going to the blame somewhere, put it where it belongs, not on that. Yeah. Kat: Mm. Cool. Yeah, where it sits. Yeah, massively. you for saying that. I appreciate it. Samantha Fox: Yes! Kat: It's just like one day at a time really, isn't it? Samantha Fox: It's one minute at a time. It's just through each day. I have to say, my particular situation, because it was so explosive, was uncommon in terms what I do see in the women that I work with. So. I see women who have deep friendships with their spouses and their spouse, while they don't want their women to leave and they're very attached, but they also really want them to be able to be who they are. then what I also see is that the men, actually... All of them, no matter how devastated they were, including my ex-husband, they move on in a very short time. It's like less than six months. Kat: Mm. Did you feel weird when your ex had been moved on? Did you feel anything about that? Samantha Fox: Did you feel like you were... Well, when we first separated, we were living under the same roof for three years, going through divorce. Yeah. So in that time, I was already with my new partner, but I still lived with my husband. During that time, he was dating a number of different people, and the people he was choosing to date, I had a hard time with. Kat: Okay. Okay. Samantha Fox: But ⁓ when finally met the woman that he ended up marrying and they've been together almost two now, ⁓ I was like, okay, like good on you, you know? And they are two peas in a ⁓ mean, they... Kat: So, thank Thank Good. Samantha Fox: Like he couldn't have found somebody that could be a better partner for him. mean, they are so happy. They are living their best lives together. ⁓ so, yeah, there is nothing hard for me about that. Kat: No, that's really good. That's a good thing. Samantha Fox: Yeah. And I see this. I mean, I see this with other women, you know, women who came out, who went through my programs like back in 2021 or 2022 and went through everything and they ended up coming out and their ex-spouses are, they are all partnered, like all partnered. One thing with men is they partner quickly. Kat: Mm. Mmm, okay. What is that? Samantha Fox: I just think they're really used to being taken care of. And there are a lot of women out there that want a good man to take care of. So yeah, think women are not used to being taken care of in that same way. We usually do the caretaking. I think we're very used to taking care of ourselves. And so when we do come out, not that we don't want to partner, but it's Kat: Yeah. next week. Mm. Samantha Fox: It's nothing like how easy it is for a man to just slip a new woman into that space. Kat: I think that comes down to that emotional connection thing as well. Maybe it's not as necessary for men. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, a companion, know, warm body, a meal cooked. anyway, I'm just I'm just letting you know what I have seen. And ⁓ I mean, what I've lived but mine was really its own very own kind of very messy ⁓ situation. But but Kat: Yeah. you Samantha Fox: But the thing that I have seen is just that there is like a caring about each other, like a loving of each other where you want what's best for one another. Like you want, you want, wants you to be able to live your truth and you want him to be able to be with someone who loves in all ways he wants to be loved. Kat: Mm. Yeah. sure, we just got to get to that point. But I don't think, like I said earlier, like for me, this is a really good time as well because Samantha Fox: Yeah. Kat: You know, there's clearly a lot of learning to do, isn't there? It's not the sort of thing that everything just falls into place overnight. Samantha Fox: No, it's like, think of it as ⁓ a lot of unpacking, there's a lot of ⁓ and then the learning from can start to come in. Kat: Sure. Sure. Yeah, I've got nothing else now, so... got nothing! I've got nothing for you! ⁓ Samantha Fox: Yeah, and I guess I'm going back to something you said in the very beginning that we didn't get back to and I just want to circle back to is this, know, the walking down the street and walking down the street and I'm wondering like, do women know? Can they tell? Can they, you know, are they able to see that I'm actually gay? You know, and I think probably not. Kat: Yeah, sure. Probably not. I have this device called a husband that disguises it really well. ⁓ Samantha Fox: Exactly. Exactly. It's a very good cover. But also I do think with the unpacking and the unlearning comes a freedom of expression that exist in heteronormativity. ⁓ there know, however this journey is for you around becoming free at some point to fully express yourself. Kat: Anyway. Samantha Fox: will come a point where, you if that is important to you. ⁓ To it was very important. I was so jealous of my first partner. was like androgynous. And so women just knew she was gay just by looking at her. ⁓ But I was feminine, much more feminine than I am now. And I was so all the time. Like everybody would know she was gay, but everybody didn't know I was gay. Kat: So you, you were just jealous of the fact that she was more readily identifiable? Samantha Fox: Yes, so jealous. I was so jealous, but it took me years. took me a number of years to get to that point, which all comes along with living through the unpacking and the unlearning. And freeing myself to be however I want to be and not adhere to norms. Kat: It's, yes, I did. loved that about kind of queer fashion and things and fashion as art. Like, I really enjoyed that. So. Samantha Fox: Yeah, with Hayden. Kat: I feel, I think it's just sort of coming with age as well, I feel more feminine now than I ever have. Samantha Fox: Yes, that happened to me. Yes, yes. Kat: So I feel super, super feminine and really kind of comfortable in my skin. I don't give a single solitary shit about wrinkles. I don't. ⁓ quite like them, whatever. And then, you know, it occurs to me about like fashion and stuff. I really enjoy looking feminine. Like I'm not a woman. don't, you know, I don't do... Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Kat: makeup and heels per se but I have I like having this femininity but I also don't really know what the style's called but you know god what's the character it was Blake Lively character and she was in a film of a simple favour or something and it's that like a suit and tie so when I go to work when I'm not in uniform when I go to work like I often wear like a I'll wear a like a three piece suit, but I still feel really feminine. So I don't want to, I don't, I might be confusing a few things, but I don't want to feel masculine. I don't want to feel like a, like a guy. love being a woman and I'm feeling feminine. And I think it can kind of do that. And it's not even like, I don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore really, but I, just think that's a really interesting thing about being super jealous about Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yes. Kat: because you wanted someone to, you wanted to be really identifiable as gay. I want to be really identifiable as being, like. Samantha Fox: Yes. Yes. Kat: I don't know, just powerful woman. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, I think for me, it was part of my identity that I just wanted. through so much to able be my authentic self and I wanted it to be known. And I mean, me, there was like just power in that. And so, yeah, it wasn't, you know, that I had to to anything masculine anything like that to arrive there, it was really, I think, more energetic, ⁓ just terms of how I carry myself and whatnot. ⁓ yeah, just, yeah. And over time, I arrived Kat: Yeah. Yeah, it's more the feeling. Samantha Fox: relate to that feeling of the femininity and really coming into your femininity in a way. I really, really went through that as well when I first started to come into myself. Kat: Yeah, it's certainly something that I've come a lot closer to. Like I've really enjoyed coming into that feeling. Yeah, is the most comfortable in my skin I have ever felt. Despite the strange duality of life and existence at the minute, I still feel pretty good. Samantha Fox: Yeah, I love that for you. Well, I thank you for being on and for sharing where you are and what you're going through and the feelings that are coming up. you know, hopefully many listeners out there will be able to resonate with exactly where you are. I'm quite sure. Kat: Yeah. sure. Yeah, no worries. Give me a year and I'll be living in my stick fort in the woods. Figuring it out. I'll update them from my stick fort. Thanks Sam, nice chatting to you. Bye bye. Samantha Fox: I'll have you back on then to hear about that. Yeah, exactly. Thanks so much, Kat. You too. Bye bye.