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Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager - Dennis Addresses Abortion | Ultimate Issues Hour · Salem Podcast Network

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio. On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: You see, when abortion is the question, then we're talking legality.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: But I'm not talking legality, so I won't take calls
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: on the legal questions. That is not the most important
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: issue here. The most important issue is the moral question.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Do we have any worth? In fact, is there a we?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Is there an I before birth?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: I'm 60 years old, and in my 20s, I had
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: two abortions. And in my 30s, I had two miscarriages.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: So in the end, I ended up having no children,
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: which I think is also an important issue. And so
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: at this stage of my life, it's not really guilt,
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: but there is a grief that lingers because you feel
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: that there'll be another shot at it. And in the end,
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: there was no other shot at it. So now from
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: my position, I try to talk to the woman of
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: my own age about it.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: And the truth is nobody wants to hear.
• 1:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, poor thing.
• 1:21
  Speaker 6: That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Welcome
• 1:25
  Speaker 6: to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours
• 1:30
  Speaker 6: of Dennis' lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to
• 1:33
  Speaker 6: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to DennisPrager.com.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: To be or not to be, that is the question.
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: Where was God? Isn't God supposed to be good?
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: Isn't he supposed to love us?
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: Does God want us to suffer?
• 1:53
  Speaker 7: Ten years, you're not finished yet?
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Morty!
• 1:58
  Speaker 7: Why did you do this to me?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Who are you?
• 2:03
  Speaker 7: Bruce.
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: I'm God. Bingo! Yahtzee!
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Is that your final answer?
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Our survey says.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: God!
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing!
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Well, it was nice to meet you, God.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you for the Grand Canyon.
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: Thank you. And good luck with the apocalypse.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: This is the Ultimate Issues Hour on the Dennis Prager Show.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Every week at this time, this hour, I devote to
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: some great issue.
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: Welcome to the program. I'm Dennis Prager.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And it is with trepidation that I enter this subject.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I will say it is one of the most discussed
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and passionate subjects in America. And I have almost never
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: discussed it for an hour. It has come up often,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: but I've never discussed it for an hour. And I
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: want to be very clear about what aspect of it
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I want to discuss. And it's really not abortion as
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: much as it is, is there worth, is there value,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: is there intrinsic worth and value in to the unborn
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: human or to the human fetus. That's the question. You see,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: when abortion is the question, then we're talking legality. But
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking legality, so I won't take calls on
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: the legal questions. That is not the most important issue here.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: The most important issue is the moral question. Do we
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: have any worth... In fact, is there a we? Is
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: there an I before birth? Now, this may sound to
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: some of you as so self-evidently true, that of course
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: there is an I before birth.
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: Why raise it?
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And the answer is because that's the only way to
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: make people aware of what abortion is about. That before
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: you argue about legality or illegality, pro-life, pro-choice, one has
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: to one has to first establish, and this is what
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: touches people, there is something there. I remember debating a
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: pro-choice man many years ago, and it was on some
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: local cable television show, and he said finally, when I
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: kept pushing and pushing, okay, yes, Dennis, to me it
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: is just tissue Okay, fine. Then that's all I asked
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: him to say. See, the rhetoric, and this is what
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: is so important, and believe me, I need to tell
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: you folks, I've come a ways, as they say, on
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: this journey because I was raised, I don't mean in
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: my family, I mean in my educational system, to believe
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: that abortion was just a woman doing what she wants
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: with her own body, a woman just... quote-unquote, ending her pregnancy.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Who are we to tell a woman you have to
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: be pregnant?
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: And I had.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Essentially bought all of that because I had not considered
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: the question of, well, wait a minute, what does it involve?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: And it does involve ending of a life. Now, is
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: the life human life? Is the life animal life? Is
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: the life, as we called it in.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: The Latin sui generis is just its own unique generic
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: entity which takes on its own issues of worth. And
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I gradually came to realize, and here is where I've
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: always said I owe the pro-life movement a great debt
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: of gratitude because they just kept pushing and pushing and
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: pushing that this is something. I'll never forget. I have
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: to give him credit here. It was in a dialogue
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: with Jerry Falwell about 30 years ago. Was that possible?
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it is. I started very, very young in my
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: public life.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: It was a public dialogue with Jerry Falwell, the late
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Jerry Falwell, the head of what was known at the
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: time as the Moral Majority, outside of Billy Graham, the
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: most influential Christian in the United States. And he made
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: a very telling point, and it had an impact on me.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I was in my 20s, and it had an impact
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: on me. He said, when a woman is pregnant, do
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: we ever say to her, how's your fetus? Or do
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: we say, how's your baby? And I thought, yeah. The
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: only time the word fetus is used is when we
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: destroy it. In other words, the exact same creature, the
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: exact same being in a woman is called a baby
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: if she wants to bring it to term, and it's
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: called a fetus if she wants to abort it. But
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: don't you think we should use the same language either way?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Isn't the changing of the language a way of numbing
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: our moral sensibilities? Did you ever go to a woman
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: who was pregnant and say, hey, how's the fetus?
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: Never, never.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Even if it was the first trimester and you just
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: found out. Oh, do you know if the baby's a
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: boy or a girl? What would you like to name
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: the baby? When is the baby due? You ever say,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: when is the fetus due? Do you have any thoughts
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: of the fetus' sex? Of course not. We use the
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: term fetus, let's be honest, in order to not confront
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: the question of whether.
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: It's a baby.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: And you have to tell me, those of you who
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: do think that it is not worth much, why is
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: it called a baby if the woman wants it? And
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: here's the other thing, and remember, I am taking no calls,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I have no desire to discuss the question of legality.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: The way to touch people on the issue of abortion
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: is to first and only discuss the question of what
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: is the worth of that which she carries. And it
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: can go from zero, no worth whatsoever, you might as
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: well be talking about mucus, to ten mucus. that she
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: is carrying a full human being who happens to simply
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: be unborn. And there are people who will say that
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: it's worth one in the beginning, and two in the
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: second month, and three in the third month, four in
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: the fourth month, five in the fifth month, and so on.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: And there will be people who will say it's zero
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: the whole time till birth, and there will be people
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: who will say it's ten the whole time from conception.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I am arguing to those of you who think that
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: it is zero, that that is not tenable. That is
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: the argument that I wish to make. And the first
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: way to do it is to understand how we use
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: language to dull our sensibilities with regard to that which
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: a woman carries. And the language is everything. The very
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: language of a woman can do what she wants with
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: her own body is fascinating to me. Because, we must
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: be honest, it's not her body, it's in her body.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And here's another linguistic... proof. Have any of you ever
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: asked a woman who is pregnant, how's your body? No,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: how's the baby? In other words, if the woman does
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: not wish to kill it, destroy it, abort it, whatever
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: word you wish to use, all of a sudden it
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: has its own It has its own identity. And you
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: ask about it and her. How are you and how's
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: the baby? No one asks a pregnant woman just how
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: are you? How are you and how's the baby? Do
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: you feel it kicking? How's it doing? What did the
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: ultrasound say? So what I believe has been done, and effectively,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: although less and less as time goes on, by people
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: who call themselves pro-choice, is that they have used language
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: to direct us away from the notion that there is
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: any worth to the human fetus. And I'll even use
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: fetus here. I don't care what you use, because I
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: want to skew it in such a way that even
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: those who believe it has no value will have to confront, well,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, do I really believe that? Is a
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: woman really doing what she wants with her own body?
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Isn't it in her body? It's not her body? Has
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: anybody ever said that a woman can't have plastic surgery?
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: That's a woman doing what she wants with her own body.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: A woman getting a tattoo, a woman getting plastic surgery,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: That's a woman doing what she wants with her own body.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: But an abortion is doing what she wants with another body.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: At least can we be honest in that. I am
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: talking this Ultimate Issues Hour. I'm now especially addressing those
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: who think that there is no worth to the human fetus.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: That you rethink it. When we come back, I will
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: play for you national public radio clips on this subject.
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: When I was in college, hi everybody, this is Dennis Prager,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and this is the Ultimate Issues Hour, an hour each
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: week devoted to some ultimate issue. And the question here
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: is not the legality of abortion or not, but rather
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the worth of that which is conceived. the fetus, the unborn,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: whatever word you wish to use. And when I was
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: in college, which was the heyday of feminism and pro-choice,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: and I just.
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: Remember the rhetoric was so obvious.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: In other words, the morality seemed so obvious, I should say,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: from the rhetoric. A woman can do what she wants
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: with her own body. It's who are we to force
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: a woman to be pregnant? And all the morality seemed
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: to be what does the woman want? And as I
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: got older and entirely because of the pro-life movement, which was,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: of course, dismissed as a bunch of yahoos, but I
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: came to ask myself the question, well, wait a minute.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: It isn't her body. It's in her body. And that
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: began a long road for.
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: Me to travel.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: The rhetoric was not morally precise. It wasn't even logically precise.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And a lot of women, of course, have had abortions.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: And so National Public Radio, on the 35th anniversary of
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Roe v. Wade, decided apparently to have a show on
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: it and had... women who had written books on how
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: to counsel women who've had abortion and so on, and NPR,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: which is presumably and certainly the show evinced the pro-choice attitude.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: Toward the whole thing, no moral problem with having an abortion.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: But in a certain sense, the show somewhat backfired because
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: by opening up the lines to callers, to women who
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: had had abortions, It wasn't quite as smooth a journey
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: for a lot of women who thought that they were
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: just doing something to their own body. But in fact,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: that rhetoric started to sound a little callous, to say
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: the least, to many women as they got older and
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: they reflected on their own abortions. And even if they
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: didn't get older, even just having had one, As we
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: will hear, I'm going to play you excerpts from the
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: National Public Radio. And remember, it's a self-selecting listening audience
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: to a certain extent. So it's not likely that a
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: lot of pro-life women are listening and calling in. So
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: these are probably more liberal-oriented women doing the calls. And
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I'll have three or four excerpts here for you. Let's
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: begin with the first.
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: If you had an abortion, have you talked about it?
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: With why and with who?
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: Have you told your kids?
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And let's begin with a caller.
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: And Jane joins us. Jane on the line from Miami
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: in Florida.
• 15:33
  Speaker 8: Hello. Hi, Jane.
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: You're on the air.
• 15:35
  Speaker 7: Hi.
• 15:35
  Speaker 9: I had an abortion four years ago when I was
• 15:40
  Speaker 9: 20 years old. And I'm so glad that the option
• 15:45
  Speaker 9: was there for me. But I didn't talk to anybody
• 15:49
  Speaker 9: about it. I didn't talk to my... Parents, I didn't
• 15:52
  Speaker 9: talk to my best friends. I have numerous siblings. I
• 15:55
  Speaker 9: didn't tell any of them.
• 15:56
  Speaker 8: Did you talk with the boy, the father?
• 16:01
  Speaker 9: Yes, he knew. And along with one other close friend,
• 16:05
  Speaker 9: the two of them knew. And when they offered their
• 16:08
  Speaker 9: support afterwards, I pushed them away. I think because of guilt.
• 16:15
  Speaker 9: I don't know. Maybe. I'm not sure.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: Because of, you said, the guilt?
• 16:22
  Speaker 9: Um, maybe it was embarrassment, like I couldn't believe that
• 16:25
  Speaker 9: I was in that position.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: See, it's interesting here, it's interesting, because, you know, I'm
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: glad the option was there, and you know, and then
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: finally the word guilt comes out, and then the interviewer,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: or the moderator, says because of the guilt, and she
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: recoils from it, but of course it was guilt. That's
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: exactly right. It was guilt because it's impossible for a
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: morally sensitive human being, for an intellectually honest, forget morally
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: sensitive even, an intellectually honest person to think of this
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: as they do pulling wisdom teeth. The rhetoric of the
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: elite in our society would like you to regard abortion
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the way you regard pulling wisdom teeth. You don't want
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: the teeth. You don't want the fetus. Bye-bye. You go,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: it's called reproductive rights, just as one has dental rights.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: I have the right to remove a wisdom tooth, and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I have the right to remove a fetus. End of issue.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: There is no other question. Does anybody ask about the
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: worth of a tooth?
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: No.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: So why ask about the worth of this? But that's nonsense.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It's utter nonsense. You can't think about it for 20
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: seconds and compare the fetus to anything else.
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: It's something....
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: It's something different, utterly different from a tooth or some
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: decayed matter that you wish to have removed from your body.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: So then she changes her word from guilt to embarrassed. Well,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: why was she embarrassed?
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: We'll continue.
• 18:11
  Speaker 9: It wasn't necessarily guilt for what I had done. I
• 18:14
  Speaker 9: didn't feel like I had done anything wrong.
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: God forbid.
• 18:17
  Speaker 9: But at the same time, I did feel like it
• 18:21
  Speaker 9: wasn't something that I should openly be talking about.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Why not, though? If it wasn't wrong, why not openly
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: talk about it? Well, I mean, one possibility is that
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: she was embarrassed that she said that she got pregnant,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: the whole situation.
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: So that's a possibility. But I.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Tend to think that there is more going on, which
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: is why she originally used guilt. It didn't just, it
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't an.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: Odd use of a word.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: It is probably something that she felt. It is said that, oh,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: it's just between a woman and her doctor. But we
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: don't regard other moral questions as between a person and
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: one other person. It's between a It's between the person
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: and society abortion. It's not just between a woman and
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: her doctor. Because society ultimately has to say it considers
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: that worthless were worth something, that which she carries. Next
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: excerpt from the same NPR 35th anniversary Roe v.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: Wade show.
• 19:32
  Speaker 9: Hi.
• 19:32
  Speaker 8: Hi, Michelle.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, please.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: I just wanted to share that I had had an
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: abortion when I was 15 and it was 32 years
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: ago and really at the time I felt like it
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: was okay but as the years went on I've just
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: had so much guilt over it that I can't hardly
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: get past it. I cry about it every time I
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: think about it. I've never allowed myself to have children
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: because I felt like I didn't deserve any because I
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: killed one. It's just very difficult.
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: You've never allowed yourself to have children because.
• 20:05
  Speaker 8: You feel guilty?
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: I feel guilty because I've taken a life. I killed
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: a baby. And have you spoken with anybody about this?
• 20:14
  Speaker 9: No, I don't.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: I'm really ashamed of myself. I don't speak to nobody
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: about it.
• 20:18
  Speaker 8: There's no reason to be ashamed of yourself, none reason
• 20:20
  Speaker 8: at all.
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: We've got two people here.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment, needless to say. That's
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: the NPR official line, back in a moment.
• 20:27
  Speaker 6: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Prager it is. Hi, I'm Dennis Prager, and this is
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: the Ultimate Issues Hour. And the question here is not
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: the legality of abortion on this Ultimate Issues Hour. Rather,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: it is the worth, if any, of that which the
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: woman is carrying when she is pregnant. And I am
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: playing for you clips from the 35th anniversary Roe v.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Wade anniversary edition of National Public Radio where they had
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: women calling in who had had abortions. And it is,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: like any audience, is sort of a selected audience of
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: people who lean in one political direction or another. And
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you would imagine the NPR audience is going to be
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: more pro-choice. And you have these calls of women who
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: have wrestled terribly with the fact that they had had
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: an abortion, and others who have mixed feelings. And this woman,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: this poor, poor woman, God, I wish I could have
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: talked to her years ago. I feel terrible for her.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: She said she had an abortion at 15. She's now 47.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: 32 and 15 is 47. And has decided never to
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: have a child because she felt after killing a child
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: she didn't deserve to have one. to give you an
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: idea of her self-laceration over her abortion. See, I have
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: a middle position between the moderator, who thinks she should
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: have no shame over the abortion, he said that, and her,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: her self-lacerating position. One of the greatest ways that you
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: could atone for what you did is to love a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: child and bring them into the world. It's a very
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: odd reaction, I would have told her, You had an abortion,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: so you've decided not to have any children. That's not
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: good for the world or good for you or good
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: for children. I wish I could have spoken to her
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: years ago. I'm going to take some of your calls.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: We'll continue with the NPR, but I want to take
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: some of your challenges and some of your calls. So
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: let's begin in Philadelphia with Blake.
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: Hi, Blake. Dennis Prager. Thank you for calling.
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: Hi, Dennis. Thanks for taking my call. I just wanted
• 22:55
  Speaker 7: to say that I agree with everything that you're saying.
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: I don't believe that the fetus doesn't have value or
• 23:02
  Speaker 7: anything like that, but I'm still choice in spite of that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: I would like to elaborate on that because a lot
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: of people find it hard to believe, but for me,
• 23:15
  Speaker 7: we need to have some kind of consistency in terms
• 23:17
  Speaker 7: of the way we view life. I mean, There are
• 23:19
  Speaker 7: a lot of things that we have that we allow
• 23:21
  Speaker 7: to be legal that are not moral and go against
• 23:25
  Speaker 7: the safety of life. You know, we have capital punishment.
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: We have wars going on all over the place. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: there's lots of things that we do in our society
• 23:33
  Speaker 7: that we do for what would be a greater good
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: that are not necessarily moral if you look at them
• 23:38
  Speaker 7: in terms of black and white. And I don't believe
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: it's fair to legislate morality, you know, and take away
• 23:44
  Speaker 7: the choice, you know, freedom, which is what America is about.
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: because there are some instances in which maybe you have
• 23:50
  Speaker 7: people that are using abortion, you know, to cover up
• 23:54
  Speaker 7: their own irresponsibility or immaturity.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Well, what percentage, I'll take your last point. I know
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: there's no perfect data on this, but your guess, do
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: you think, what percentage of abortions do you think are
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: medically necessary?
• 24:10
  Speaker 7: I really don't know.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Do you think about 50-50? Do you think It's a
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: very small percentage, a very large percentage.
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: To be honest and fair, I would say that the
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: majority probably aren't medically necessary, but I would hate to
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: have the choice taken away. I mean, even if you
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: look at some of the folks.
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: Well, you.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: All right, hold on. And I'm not trying to persuade you.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I'm only trying to clarify, really, your own thinking. And
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: that is, you said that you think it has worth.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Does it have more worth, let's say, in the sixth month,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: in your view, than in the first month of pregnancy?
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: I would say, like, until birth, because I look at
• 24:49
  Speaker 7: life like, before you know anything, you're already here or
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: you're already living. So until you're born, you're not really,
• 24:55
  Speaker 7: I mean, we don't count the, you know, insemination towards
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: our birthdays. We don't, you know, conception is not what
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: we celebrate.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: All right, so I'm just, that's a, okay, that's a position, fine.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I just want to know, though, do you believe that
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: there is more worth in the seventh month than in
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the first month, sixth month, seventh, eighth? This third trimester abortion,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: do you think there should be choice there if it's
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: not medically necessary?
• 25:22
  Speaker 10: It has to be.
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: To be technical, I would say no. I would say
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: if it's an abortion, it's an abortion.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So just for the woman's own psychological comfort, it's okay
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: to extinguish the life of an eight-month pregnancy?
• 25:37
  Speaker 7: I wouldn't say for her own psychological comfort.
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: Well, give me another reason. So wait, you would take
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: away her choice.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Then you would. See, I just want clarity here. That's
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: all I want.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: We'll be back.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. Now,
• 25:57
  Speaker 6: back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: Hi, everybody.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: This is Dennis Prager. This is what I call the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues Hour. I have it each week at this time.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: And believe it or not, we haven't done this, and
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: that is abortion. and specifically, not even abortion, but rather
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: the worth of the human fetus or the unborn, depending
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: on the language you wish to use. And I'm making
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: the case to you that whatever your position, at least
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: we need clarity, moral and intellectual clarity. And there is
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: language that just has to be dropped. A woman doing
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: what she wants with her own body is an example.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: It's not her body. I don't care what you call it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It's not her body. It's in her body. A tooth
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: is her body. Plastic surgery is involved with her body.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: But an abortion is the removal of something else from
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: her body. What is it, a temporary appendage to her body?
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's be intellectually honest. Now, the last caller
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: raised an issue that always disturbs me.
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: It's... Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me, folks. This is
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: from my.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Noshing in between breaks. Anyway, this notion of let's have
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: a complete life position from birth to death, and that
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: includes capital punishment. And I am just amazed by that,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: whether it is used by the left or the right.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: The killing of a human fetus should never, ever be
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: morally likened to the killing of a murderer. Please understand,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and I know that there are good, wonderful people out
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: there who believe this, but I take terrible exception to this.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: It cheapens the life of the human fetus to compare
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: it to a murderer. There is no... I'm sorry, I
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: don't mean to offend anybody. There are religious people out
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: there who believe this, and I love these people, but
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I do not love this idea, which is intellectually baseless. Well,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: it's all of one whole piece of life, and so...
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: We're against taking it under any circumstance, abortion or capital punishment.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: So you're telling me that Charles Manson's life is as
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: valuable as a human fetus's life? That has done nothing wrong?
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: By the way, there's no scriptural basis for this. Zero,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: zero point zero. No, it's below zero. It's very, very
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: disturbing to me. All it does is cheapen the arguments
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: vis-a-vis abortion. It doesn't make anti-abortion arguments stronger. It makes
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: them weaker. Let's go to some of your calls here.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: And in Los Angeles, it's Jim.
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: Hello, Jim. Dennis Prager.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: Hello, Dennis. Hi. Hi.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 29:43
  Speaker 10: Ironically enough, you made the comparison earlier about a wisdom tooth.
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 29:49
  Speaker 10: And I hadn't thought of that, but after I was
• 29:52
  Speaker 10: waiting to speak with you, it is actually a fairly
• 29:55
  Speaker 10: good comparison because we don't pull wisdom teeth just because
• 30:01
  Speaker 10: you know, randomly. They get pulled because what it does
• 30:03
  Speaker 10: is it has an impact on the rest of the mouth,
• 30:06
  Speaker 10: on the bite, on everything, on digestion and everything. And
• 30:09
  Speaker 10: I agree with the previous caller that a human life,
• 30:13
  Speaker 10: and I do think that after five months, it's a
• 30:16
  Speaker 10: whole different animal than in the first five months. I just,
• 30:20
  Speaker 10: I agree with you there, that at some point you
• 30:22
  Speaker 10: have to draw the line and say that this child
• 30:25
  Speaker 10: could actually live outside the womb and continue its life.
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: Well, what if it could live at four months?
• 30:33
  Speaker 10: Well, if it could live at four months, then that
• 30:35
  Speaker 10: would be fine.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: All right, so here I'm only arguing for clarity, not
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: to convince you of anything. I just want to understand
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: your position is that it has no right to live
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: until it can live on its own.
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: Right. But you wouldn't apply that to a.
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: An adult.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are people who cannot live without being
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: in an iron lung or without dialysis or without a
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: whole host of things.
• 31:09
  Speaker 10: There are people that don't want to live anymore and they.
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: Can't take their own life.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, not don't want to live. I don't
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: understand why the worth of a being is determined by
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: its dependence.
• 31:23
  Speaker 10: Well, that's You know, that's secondary.
• 31:25
  Speaker 7: No, no, no.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: To you it's primary. To you it's everything. You're saying
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: that if it can.
• 31:31
  Speaker 10: What I'm saying is that the worth of the child is,
• 31:33
  Speaker 10: while it's still unborn, it has a worth. It has
• 31:37
  Speaker 10: a value. But I have to look at it like
• 31:40
  Speaker 10: you do with other issues. What is the greatest good?
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so do you think a society with very, very
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: few abortions and only.
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: When medically necessary... is.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Better or worse in the long view than a society
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: with millions of abortions, 99% of which are done for convenience.
• 32:00
  Speaker 10: Well, I don't, I mean, convenience is sort of a
• 32:02
  Speaker 10: broad term.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: It is a broad term, but it is completely accurate.
• 32:07
  Speaker 10: The social impact of an unwanted child has.
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: There is no social, the social impact is that they will.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: There is.
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: No, no, there isn't. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: This, oh, I'm glad you raised this because this is
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the greatest myth ever. Of the entire issue of abortion,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: there is a couple waiting every single kid who would
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: be born if there were no abortions.
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 32:29
  Speaker 10: If adoption was easier, and I would much rather people
• 32:32
  Speaker 10: give their children up for adoption.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, then the social good is what you raised, and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the social good would be infinitely increased if we had
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: far fewer abortions and far more adoptions. So I have
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: yet to hear a persuasive argument other than we're not
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: going to interfere with the selfish desire to abort the child.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I have not heard a good moral argument. More and
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: more of you agree that it has worth, and now
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: more and more agree that it would be a better
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: society without it. We'll be back in a moment.
• 33:08
  Speaker 8: Dennis, hi. This is Kevin Amundsen. I am actually your
• 33:11
  Speaker 8: age and have been a listener a long time and
• 33:14
  Speaker 8: absolutely love you. I'm so... Sad that you got into
• 33:18
  Speaker 8: trouble with your accident, but praying for you often when
• 33:21
  Speaker 8: I think of you. I'm currently listening right now to
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: your podcast on wisdom, and I so agree with it.
• 33:29
  Speaker 8: It's remarkable. We grew up in a time where, like
• 33:32
  Speaker 8: you say, don't trust those over 30. But if we
• 33:37
  Speaker 8: were smart, we understood that our elders were smart and
• 33:40
  Speaker 8: had lots to learn from, and you are that today.
• 33:44
  Speaker 8: Thank you so much for all you do. We love
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: you lots. We pray that you'll continue to get better,
• 33:49
  Speaker 8: and God bless you. Bye-bye.
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: Dennis.
• 33:52
  Speaker 7: Dennis.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Dennis.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Dennis Prager.
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: Do you have a question you've always wanted to ask
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: Dennis Prager? Well, now's your opportunity. For upcoming Ask Me
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: Anything episodes of Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager, we're inviting
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: you to leave Dennis a voicemail. He'll personally answer selected questions,
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: and your question could be featured on a future episode,
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: whether it's about faith, morality, politics, history, relationships, happiness, or
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: simply navigating life. Dennis would love to hear from you.
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: Just call 877-243-7776 and leave your question. Oh, and be
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: sure to include your first name and where you're calling from.
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: That's 877-243-7776. While we can't feature every question, Dennis will
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: listen to every voicemail.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: So call today.
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: You may hear Dennis Prager answering your question on an
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: upcoming episode of Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. And thanks
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: for listening and supporting Dennis Prager.
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: The Ultimate Issues Hour. Dennis Prager here.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I wish I had time for all your calls, but
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I do want you to hear one more clip from
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: that NPR, National Public Radio Program, 35th anniversary.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: Of Roe v. Wade.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I'm 60 years old. And in my 20s, I had
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: two abortions. And in my 30s, I had two miscarriages.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: So in the end, I ended up having no children,
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: which I think is also an important issue. And so
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: at this stage of my life, it's not really guilt,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: but there is a grief that lingers because you feel
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: that there'll be another shot at it. And in the end,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: there was no other shot at it. So now from
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: my position, I try to talk to the women of
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: my own age about it, And the truth is nobody
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: wants to hear.
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, poor thing.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of rhetoric sold to women in
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: my generation. Baby boomers. That damaged their lives. And it
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: all came from feminism. That a career was as important
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: to you or more important than finding a good man
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and marrying. That marriage was a sexist institution. created for men,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: you don't need it. That you will derive at least
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: as much joy from career as from being the maker
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: of a home. That you have the same basic attitude
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: towards sex that a male does, and you could enjoy
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: it with no meaning and no emotion, just as men can.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: And that abortion is just a biological procedure akin to
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: the removal of a tooth. All of them were lies
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: told to a whole generation of women and millions of
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: them have suffered quietly as a result. But as I
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: have often said, and I have talked no politics in the, uh,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: course of the, uh, of the show, the, uh, Being
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: on the left means never having to say you're sorry.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And the left taught a lot of bad things. To
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: my generation, and this woman calling into NPR is still grieving.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: What are you supposed to feel about that which you extinguished?
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: Nothing?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: What are you supposed to think as you get older
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: and you're a woman? And what kills me is there
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: was such a spectacular alternative.
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: Adoption. not keeping adoption.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: There are millions of couples who would ache to love
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: and raise that child. And that would be the better choice.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: This has been the Ultimate Issues Hour on The Dennis
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Prager Show. Thank you for listening.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: A woman came over to me, an attractive woman in
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: her 30s, and told me her story. as men and
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: women do open up to me a lot, and it's
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: very helpful because then I can report even more honestly about.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: Men and women in the program and in my writing.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: And she explained that in her, I guess, late teens,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: early 20s, she had been a stripper and had then
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: become a Christian and stopped that work, gotten married and
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: has a wonderful husband and children. She said, until I
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: heard your explanation of men, I had this long-standing belief
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: that men were, especially the men who came to see
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: my work in my pre-Christian days, were pigs. Men were
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: just pigs. And I realize now that that's not the case.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Not to say that there aren't men who are, but
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: that normal men are normal men and it obviously helped
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: her understand her husband better and this is this is
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: terrific this is why i am writing my book on
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: male sexual nature it's part of why i do this
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: program the reason i tell you this story, aside from
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: I think it's inherently interesting, is as an introduction to something.
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis' lectures, courses,
• 39:45
  Speaker 6: and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: We want to take just a second to thank the
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
• 39:58
  Speaker 6: the podcast. Go to lifeaudio.com to find dozens of other
• 40:02
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• 40:05
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