Latest / "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers" / Would You Re-Marry After 60? with Jackie Adams

Transcript

Would You Re-Marry After 60? with Jackie Adams · "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers"

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: You are listening to What's Next Conversations with Boomers?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Barb Demaray, your host.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this podcast is aimed at boomers.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the facts about boomers, one of the many things characteristic of our demographic, is that many of us are divorced and many of us are widowed.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Many of us have dated.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Some people repartner and move in together.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Some people remarry.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to talk about Would We Marry Again?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have on Jackie Adams with me, who's been on many times.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's really our resident mental health therapist.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she's also my good friend.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're both single.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a widow for nine years.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jackie for more than 10, I think.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've been divorced for 15.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: 15 years.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Jackie, great to see you as always.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Good, good.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're always happy to have you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let me just start off by just asking that question to you.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, how long were you married?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you when you got married?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And just say again how long you've been on your own.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I got married when I was, as I call it, barely 23 years old.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: I had turned 23 about 10 days before I got married.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I had just completed university, actually.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: I had completed university on the off semester, really finished in December.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: But if I wanted to walk with my class, it would have been May, right?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, I was 23 years old, pretty naive, and I got married.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we were married for 32 years, and I've now been divorced for 15.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I mean, you and I have talked about this before privately, but the whole idea of going through that again, although obviously it would be entirely different, does that appeal to you at this stage of life?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I have a long answer for that.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: The long answer is this.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have said many a time, if all the stars align, I would definitely get remarried.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: However, as time has gone on, the alignment of the stars have changed, right?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: What do I really want?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in reality, it's true.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm older.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, you did, I think you asked me how old I was when I got divorced.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I was 55 years old when I got divorced.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, initially, what I was looking for, as far as my life was concerned, not the person I was looking for, and my needs changed a great deal, right?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because now I've been on my own for this long and I'm very comfortable with that.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: But part of me says, Do I want to be alone the rest of my life?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer to that question is no.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want to remarry?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: And do I think commitment is very important to me?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: And my kids had once said, they're so funny.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I still to this day have a lot to lose if I remarry.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: We'll get into that later.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: But my kids had always said, Don't remarry, mom, just have some big commitment party, and you'll still have everything you want.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, Yeah, that sounds good.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: But again, there's a lot to consider.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't answer you because I it just depends.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: It really depends.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I love marriage.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm never gonna say anything different about it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think being married is great.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: At 71 years old, there are many different things to consider.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: What did it mean to you, marriage, when you got married at 23?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're talking to somebody who was very insecure, did not think much of herself.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so getting married at 23, I felt, wow, this is gonna be great.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be secure.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have somebody who really loves me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's all gonna be like anybody else's fairy tale, I guess.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately for me, it was really, really good when it was good.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really what I wanted, I guess.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was hard.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, at 23 years old, I wasn't one of my first friends to get married.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, all my friends were getting married at that age, that long ago.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had, yeah, many friends that got married even younger than me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just felt like, okay, this is the next step.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I can do this.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: This man really loves me, and everything's gonna be great.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that way for a long time, wasn't it?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Until it wasn't.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for regular listeners, you know Jackie's story, and we won't go over it again, but yes, until it wasn't.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as you say, it's completely different at this stage of life.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was 31 when I got married and absolutely wanted to get married.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted the formal commitment and wanted to be witnessed in a church and, you know, did the whole traditional thing and felt really good about it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I also wanted us all to have the same last name.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted children and all of those things.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so much of that is just not relevant anymore.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: We've done all that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: We've got we've got the kids, we've got the grandchildren, we've built homes, we've done all these things.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's, you know, we've got a completely different trajectory at this age.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's the difference in the level of commitment, do you think, between living together versus marriage?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's a big difference in the level of commitment.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know many people who have never married and have been with their person for 30 years.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think commitment is pretty much the same.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think marriage, for whatever reason, and this is just my opinion, and I know statistics will tell me differently, that being married has that little edge of security, the little edge of him, your new husband, being more a part of the family or the kids and the grandchildren, really maybe looking at the person you married rather than so-called living with your boyfriend.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I know that sounds like those are mild technicalities, really, but I still believe that the level of commitment can very much be the same.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: However, and this is one of the things that I think about a lot.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think as we age, you have to consider the fact that you may end up with somebody who has an illness.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are not married to them, and I know this is sad, but I've seen it happen a couple of times already recently, you don't have to stay with that person.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're not married, and you don't want to take care of a sick person.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can truly just leave without any real repercussions, right?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to go through the process of divorce, you can actually just say, okay, go back to your kids, let them take care of you.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not cut out to do this.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know this all sounds sad and horrible, but I think it's a true thought in people's heads.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Anything's a possibility.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that until that actually happens, people really don't know what they would do because until you're actually given the situation, presented with the circumstances, it's so easy to say, I would do this, I wouldn't do that, I would be with that person no matter what, or I would say I'm out of here.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: But until you've actually lived it, yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like anything else, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you didn't live through it, you can imagine, but you don't totally know what you're going to do at any point in time.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: And by the same token, people will say to me, Well, if you think about that, and you're worried about having to take care of somebody in their old age, but think about if you're the one who got sick, you'd have somebody there for you.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've said many times, no, I would never get married again.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then I also say, which I would say to anybody, never say never about anything, right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've all done things that we said we'd never do, or said things we said we'd never say.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if that person were to come along, that phantom person that we haven't met yet, were to come along.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And love is very potent.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, and yes.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And blinding.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I really wonder, I mean, it hasn't happened to me.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I don't know what I haven't fallen head over heels in love at all since I've been divorced.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, have I loved?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I did.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I really would say I truly loved one of the men I was with for several years.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: However, was I really, did I have that feeling that I just want to always be with him?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer was no.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I needed my space.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: I knew what I needed.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think to your point, Barb, we can't make that decision unless, you know, something happens and we realize, oh my gosh, I never want to live without this person again.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I really need them.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the only way we should just get married.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't mind, I have a wonderful story about a couple who I still look up to to no end.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I only met them, I don't know, three or four years ago now.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they've become friends.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they had met each other, and within a year, they got married.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember saying to Kathy, she was the woman, I was at her house.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's where all began.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was at her house for a meeting I was involved with, and I saw a picture of she and this man, and it was one of those cruise pictures.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I said to her, Hey Kath, I didn't know you, you know, are you dating this guy?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: He could she goes, Yes, and he's wonderful.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we recently went on this cruise.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: So lo and behold, a little bit later, I find out that they have gotten engaged and they're gonna get married.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they got married within a year of meeting each other.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh my.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: So just recently, last Sunday, I was with them, and knowing that I was gonna do this, I asked him a couple of questions.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I know you two are so happy.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: He's 72, I think, and she's a bit younger.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: She's not quite someone yet.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Kathy turns to me and goes, I would do this again in a harpy with this man.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he felt the same.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: But all the stars aligned for them.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I have to say, they number one fell in love with each other.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, they have no financial worries.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Their children get along with each other.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: This man is stellar.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say enough about him.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: They care about each other, they have so much fun together, like everything really, really works.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what they were saying.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: They said we just knew.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we are still, I mean, yeah, they've only been married a few years, but three to be exact.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, we still just have so much fun and we just love being together, and this is the way we want to live out the rest of our life.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a happy story.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I have friends that met online.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: The woman, Jennifer, I started a widow's group just after I was widowed, and she was part of that group, and she went online.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was after she retired or just before she would anyway.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: She dated many people and met Derek.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: They've been on, so I don't mind saying their names.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: They've they've been on to talk about their relationship.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: But everything aligned for them as well.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they married, I don't know, maybe three years ago, and they are smitten with each other.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's so lovely to see.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they travel all the time, and he does not have grandchildren, but she does, and so he's become the grandpa, and she's just as happy as can be.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's so lovely to see.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I having them over one time, and she said that it didn't mean that much to her to get married.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: She was committed to Derek no matter what.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember him saying something like, I'm I'm more traditional and I I do want to get married.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So of course she agreed and they had a lovely wedding.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so exactly.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: If things align, I mean, like you're the couple that you're talking about, they just knew.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: You do just know.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But until that person comes along, it makes everything that we say relevant if we if we say, oh, absolutely, I I wouldn't share my life with anybody again.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to share my house with anybody.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't but then and then somebody, oh, oh, but there's oh, okay.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've softened.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why we say, like, you know, never say never.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, you know, I'm open to anything truly, as long as I feel good about it, right?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna do something just because, and sometimes I believe, not sometimes, I do believe, I got married at a young age for a lot of reasons.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I was madly in love with my husband because I know I wasn't.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I wanted to get out of my house.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: I loved what he had to offer as far as how much he loved me.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: I never had somebody that just loved me so much, and I was overwhelmed with it actually, and enjoyed it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew he was a good guy, and I I just knew a lot of things about him, or enough.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't really date him for very long, but I knew enough, and it worked again until it didn't.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's no time frame there, it's a feeling.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always said when you get married really young and you grow up with that person, if they get sick or they need something, you have no trouble helping them out.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: You've been with them your whole life, basically, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I question and I I fear, you know, if I were to get married or in a very committed relationship, again, I would have to be so in love.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I weren't and somebody got sick and they needed extra care and I had to do things I don't want to do because I'm not good at that, you know, would I stay or would I go?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't know.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I have to keep saying I don't know because I don't know.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the right answer for a lot of these things is we don't know because uh, you know, my husband did get sick, very ill, and I was by his side.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you know, we'd been together 30 years plus, and there was no question, obviously, I was going to be there for him.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a funny thing, it's not funny, ha ha, but it brought us very close together.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: It is said all the time, and I've learned this a lot through my you know therapeutic training.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: When tragedy, illness, trauma of any kind happens, it either brings couples closer together or brings them farther apart.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, nine times out of ten, if it's a spouse that gets ill, most of the time, if they've been married for a long period of time, they it brings them together, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or not.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had women say to me, Yeah, I had to end up taking care of my husband when I was really ready to divorce him.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: That was just not a good place.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that can happen.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there are those stories.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: But again, you were there for 30 years with this man, and the type of people we are for, we're loyal.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna just abandon anybody, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why the commitment of marriage, second marriage, is so different.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because you have to consider many things.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: But you didn't when you were young.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, certainly I thought we were gonna get really old together, and that didn't happen.
• 15:34
  unknown: Right.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, another thing is the financial implications, and they're big, and our children, and you know, sorting all of that out that can be huge.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of people that say I would never get married again because I want to protect my portfolio and I want to protect my children, and I, you know, all of those things.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: That can be a reason that people, you know, live separately, just you know, their their money is completely separate and they want to keep it that way.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the top reasons to marry or not marry.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's the financial part.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when you think about it or know about it, like I do for sure, finances are one of the top reasons people get divorced.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: The top three are like finances, sex, and kids, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And parenting.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: So when you don't agree on certain those things, there's a lot of trouble.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, so the second time around, what are we looking at?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at marrying somebody who agrees with a prenup, who agrees with how you have things set and are not pushing you to change that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And by the same token, you know, you don't know who you're marrying, maybe you know, they could be a millionaire, bazillionaire, whatever.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to understand.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: And he has five kids.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, he wants them taken care of.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: You get it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the kind of types of agreements that are important second time around for me, for sure.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's what really matters.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I want to make sure that on the big issues we agree, and that is one of the biggest.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely one of the biggest.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have deep dive conversations about those important things because they can absolutely end the relationship if there's no.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I would want somebody that gets along well with my kids.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't get along well with my kids, you know, you want to be able to integrate that person into your family.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And some people integrate well and other people don't so much.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the financial part, too, which really depending on the state, I think, and I don't know Canada at all, but women who receive alimony, if they remarry, they don't get that alimony.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So my thing is if you're getting alimony, you need to have a prenup because the prenup has to say, if you ever leave me, now I have no income because my income was dependent, and for some people it is, it's totally dependent on this alimony income.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: And now we marry, we divorce, I have nothing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the prenup has to include okay, if we divorce, yeah, I will give you the alimony you were receiving.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know that sounds crazy, and I remember mentioning that to someone once, and they said, then why would anybody marry her?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Because if they love her and they haven't they don't think they're ever gonna leave, they'll sign that paper.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's also different kinds of mindsets around remarrying.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are people that just say, I don't want to be alone.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: This person is in my life.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm not madly in love with them, but they're company, they're a companion.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna commit to this person.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you think people marry well, we've already talked about this.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Men do very you know, statistically, they will repartner, remarry much more quickly than women do.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I just read that in our demographic, only five percent of us get married again.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that statistic, but yeah, that sounds really low.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Really low, yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just read that yesterday.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a lot of single friends, but the people that I have that are friends, and there's people that I've talked to, so many are completely content on their own.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And how many married people?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I my cousin is one.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if anything ever happened to my husband, I would never remarry.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: See, these people that are so definite on what they would or wouldn't do before the event has happened, right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where we're always different.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: But on that note, Barb, I wanted to add, I have a couple things.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: One is when we talk about men remarrying, and you mentioned it earlier, and why do they, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there were like four things that I was doing some research on.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And as far as a man is concerned, men feel like they need peace, they want a deeper love than they had, they want some comfort and routine if that wasn't part of her their other life, and the beer of loneliness.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Men hate being alone.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I dated a man who never wanted to be alone, he always wanted to be with me, and I was like, No, you have to go home.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: He goes, I don't even know how to be alone, I'm just gonna have to go to a friend, I'm gonna have to do this.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Well, I love my alone time, so bye-bye.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that is something Wow, yeah, I know.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Also, and when you said the 5% who get married of women in our demographic, okay.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: In our demographic, yeah, right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, however, the statistic that I've always known and I always am blown away by, second marriages have a much higher failure rate than first marriage.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: So when you read those kinds of things or you learn about them, I mean, I think it's something to consider.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: You have to really think about why I am getting into this relationship, marriage, and what are the odds?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I think your emotions have to be there, things have to align.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing I'd be interested in is yes, we do know that second marriages have a higher divorce rate than first marriages, but so often those people are between, let's say, 25 and 45.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're in a much higher age bracket, and hopefully we're older and wiser.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wonder people that get married, let's say, you know, after 60, what's the rate of divorce for that demographic?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would suspect it's quite low versus people that are in a much younger age category.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a good point, Barb.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're absolutely right.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we look at men in particular, because I was just talking about them, and they've remarried and they have at least some contentment and they're not alone, they're not getting divorced.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're not getting divorced.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it was funny because one of the stats I pulled up, and again, I think it would have been earlier on in a marriage, but that 90%, and it's funny how this was broken down and pretty much discriminatory, but 90%.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Of college educated women initiate divorce.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: 90% of college educated women are the ones who initiate a divorce.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: By the same token, considering all women, 70% of women initiate divorce.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know the exact statistic, but I did know that most divorces are initiated by women.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that is?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you look at it statistically, I'll take myself for example, and I'm I think a very good example.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: I would be in the statistic of the woman who initiated divorce with good reason, right?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: I could have waited and sort of played it out and hoped we'd stay together and reconcile and all those things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: But as a wise woman, I looked at what was happening and I said to myself, I have to jump on this, or the bank accounts will be closed, or he'll do something.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I don't want to lose here, especially financially.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I immediately filed for divorce, and my ex-husband said to me, I can't believe you just filed for a divorce.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: I thought we would revisit this like in September, which would have been like four months later.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, No, I mean, you've already moved out and I'm okay.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I would be in the statistic of initiating.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think women initiate because sometimes their hands are really forced.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I better get to this before he does, before whatever happens, right?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I think that stat really comes from.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that men are slower.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh yeah, I'm really unhappy and I'm gonna move out, and you know, I'll get I'll get divorced eventually and take care of it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a little wacky.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think men are far more tolerant of an imperfect situation than we are.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Their needs are very basic.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're not wanting the deep conversations and the meaningful resolutions and the kinds of conversations that we like to have as women.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Men don't really care about that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: As long as their basic needs are being met, they're good.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sad to say, but you're correct.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I read something and I didn't dive into it too deep, but about why men leave, why men divorce.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: And some of it was like, oh, because he was being nagged too much.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So to your point, they don't put up with anything, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: They can't.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: They can't hang in there.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: If it's not really happening the way they want it to happen, they're done.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but if their basic needs are being met and you're not nagging them, apparently, they're they'll stack, you know, and women get discontented by men who are content because sometimes you're working with two different personalities.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I have a girlfriend who divorced her husband.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: She said to me, just because he was so boring, like, oh, okay.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you realize you don't have anything in common, I guess, and you're the one that's not content, and you can see a way out of that, I guess you do it.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I wasn't my experience, but yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you had a pretty good reason to file for a divorce, in my opinion.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And anybody else in that situation, I mean, that was an intolerable situation.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, even the priest at the church told me that my divorce, I guess, would be, I don't know, substantiated.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, yes.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's this, I don't know if we want to call it a trend, but the lat people that living apart together, I think that's what it's at the A stands for.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So people like I just think the sound of this is great, but you know, I've never done it, and maybe I wouldn't like it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But where each person has their own, they're completely committed to each other, they're monogamous in every way, but they don't want to live in the same house.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine yourself doing that?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I can imagine myself, and I don't know if this would count for that, maybe, because I think as long as we could stay together 24 hours a few days a week, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Not always be separated like that.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have a girlfriend who does that actually, she's great.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: She's in Florida, she's been dating this guy, I don't know, four or five years by now.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, he's at her place maybe three days a week, and then they're not, or sometimes they just go to dinner together and go back to their own places.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely working for her.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't know.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how long that I I don't know.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I think part of that sounds ideal when you're an independent woman doing your independent stuff and you don't want to constantly say, well, I'm not gonna be home tonight because I'm going to play Mahjong, I'm not gonna be home tonight, I'm going to book club, I'm not gonna be home, you know, like that's a lot as well.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So well, one of the reasons is I remember when I was first this first came to my attention is because of people's different habits.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: One person likes to get up early and the other one doesn't.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: One person likes to go to bed early, the other one doesn't.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Different rhythms, which is really hard when you're cohabitating.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially as you get older and everybody, you know, we're most of us are retired, and so we're home together all the time.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is a it's not an easy question to answer, is it?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Would we marry again?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, because it's routines, it's schedules, it's emotion, you know.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'll take the blame for all of this, but by virtue of what I do, but even before I did this, and a lot of times I remember my ex-husband, husband at the time would say to me, Oh, it's just because you're a therapist.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't true because I would say to him, I was just like this before I finally decided to do something with me as a therapist.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was a teacher and then I was a therapist, but I had these same thoughts, feelings, and discussions way before that, right?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, and you touched on it earlier, deep discussions I love.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love to really get into the bottom of emotional feelings and thoughts and you know how everybody ticks, right?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: But for some people, that's very off-putting, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, if I can't have a deep emotional relationship with somebody, it's just very, as I call it, superficial.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: I used to say, even to my kids, like I would say, oh, so you talked to so-and-so, was it just all superficial bullshit?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they'd be like, pretty much, you know, how's the weather?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go to the movies?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: What TV shows are you watching?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not for me.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not for me either, Jackie.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I've been with people, I was with a man one time and just sort of presenting a question around our relationship, he literally didn't know what to say.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to say.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I don't know.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Emotions are the hardest things for people to talk about, but if you are committed and in love with somebody, in my opinion, that piece should be easy.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, if you can't share the tough stuff, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like when somebody passes away.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't share how you're feeling about that, you're just so far apart from each other, like when a tragedy happens.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And again, we just touched on this before.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Do we grow together or do we grow apart?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: What happens?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people who have lost children, unfortunately, and the statistic is very high that they divorce.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: No matter what the reason was for the child passing, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: It just breaks the different ways of handling it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the deep emotional piece and how you handle it or respond to it, react to it, takes a toll on marriages if they're so diverse and you can't really understand what's going on over here.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or you're with somebody and you're saying falling apart about something, like really emotional, and they're sitting there like no emotion.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty frustrating.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you want somebody to dive in with you.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know how they say, Jackie, that you can be lonelier in a relationship living with somebody than you are by yourself.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and it happens all the time.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: And part of me really feels sorry for those people.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just to use your example, you're wanting to have a meaningful dialogue about something's important, and the other person is basically stonewalling you.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a very lonely position to be in.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a living human being in front of you, but they're not engaged in any way.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's very difficult.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can't tell you how many times I deal with one part of a couple, for instance, and I will say things like, So what do you do together?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: When do you spend time together?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: How do you spend time together?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer I get from so many people who are older, maybe not as old as me, but older, they'll say, Oh, the only time we're really together is to sit and watch a TV show.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're not having a conversation, you're not talking about anything, or we don't watch it together.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: He has a show on he wants to watch, so then I sit on my computer, but I'm next to him and I'm doing whatever, I'm shopping or whatever on my online.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that awful.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: If that's the only time we're spending together, I want to question your marriage.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know in early childhood education there's a term called parallel play, and you know you I'm sure you know what that is.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: When children are very young, they don't yet know how to interact with each other, but they play side by side.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what we're describing is basically parallel play.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're sitting beside each other, but apart from that, there's no inter like that kind of thing drives me like that's the loneliness, right?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: You feel alone even though you're together.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell you, Barb, out loud, I wish that I could delve into a lot of people's intimate lives because I believe my heart and soul that couples today who are both working in high-power jobs, a lot of stress, a lot of that, they have a very small, if any, intimate relationship.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: I see it often.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: I have people that come to my office and will say, Well, we haven't had sex in like 10, 15 years, but we're still together.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big part of it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the reasons for a divorce, right there.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's one of the top.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like if you can't be intimate with the person you're married to, I'm not sure.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because have I learned and been told all my life, and I believe it, the person you're married to is the one that should know the most about you, should know things that nobody else knows, and you have kind of like a secret pact.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's only the two of you.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've heard those stories where, like, if you go to a party and you have like a safe word, you know, you want to leave, or you have an eye contact or something, right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's just between the two of you.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: But that's how marriage is supposed to be.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it is, but well, you use the word safe and safety.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's so important to be with somebody that you feel safe with.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is safe to say what is on your mind.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: You feel safe to be yourself, you can be your authentic self.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the kind of people we're if we were to be with somebody that we want, right, Jackie?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And safety, uh you're so right, Barb, I think has become even more important today because unfortunately, people marry people who they really don't know like they think they do, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you really have to say, okay, I feel very, very safe about this.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if we just look at crime in our country, well maybe not your country, but crime in my country, and you look at households, the amount of domestic violence, all those things, because you're like, I never thought they would be like this.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I never thought this would happen.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't the person I knew, you know.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: So how safe do we need to be?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna marry for the second time and you don't know, I'm not saying he doesn't want to protect his finances, but if you don't know his finances, you don't know him.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we could somebody who's like in all this debt but hasn't revealed it, so you think he's okay.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care if he says to you, you're not getting a penny of this.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I'm giving to my children, but here, this is the open book.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's part of your agreement.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have no idea, you're in trouble.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: We had uh this is two or three months ago, a lawyer on and the topic was gray divorce, but her specialty was sorting out finances, and she said exactly Lisa Zeiderman, she said exactly what you just said.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's so important that there's full disclosure around finances.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: You should know exactly how much money you both have, where your money is, absolutely no secrets.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing she really emphasized is what you just said earlier is the prenup.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you do hear stories about, you know, gosh, you know, he had a separate bank account and I had absolutely no idea.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm seeing all this stuff on the visa, and I think, well, where is he getting this money and blah, blah, blah?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really a huge red flag.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Huge red flag.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, to tell you the truth, I mean, if I were to meet somebody and really fell in love with them and then found out that they had so much debt, I'd run.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, I mean, my heart might be broken because I really feel like I'm in love with this person, but there's no way at 71 years old I'm taking on someone's debt.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And can you imagine how mad your kids would be if you did that?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's their inheritance gone to somebody that they weren't even related to.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't even mean going that far.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just mean finding out that he had debt even before marriage or a true commitment.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean a commitment.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, being in love with somebody and finding that out, I would say, I'm sorry, but I can't even be with you.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's I I would too.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it also suggests that the person, I mean, there's multiple of reasons that put people in debt, but there's a piece of that that suggests the person isn't very responsible.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't want somebody that's irresponsible.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: What are the advantages of not marrying?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, again, this is gonna be individual in a lot of ways, right?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the advantages for so many people of not marrying are back to finances, right?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how you file taxes, right?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: How you relate to your kids.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think most of the not marrying has a lot to do with finances.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the majority of people, you know, collecting Social Security or whatever they're doing.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard my mom used to live in this complex with a lot of older people.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there were people that they really thought were married and they weren't, but they weren't married because of financial reasons.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I hear that often.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's really number one, the advantage to not getting married.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it depends on the circumstances.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I don't know exactly what that is.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the other advantages to not getting married is for some people, the fear of losing your independence and the fear of changing your own routines and your rituals and your schedule.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know this all sounds kind of trite, but for some people it's really important.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, if I hear this from young couples who divorce early because, well, I married her or I married him, and this is what he was like.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: And as soon as we got married, he stopped doing this or he started doing that.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't bargain for that.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what I wanted.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that older people, our generation, start to think about those things.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if I marry you, what's gonna change here?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Am I doing all the changing?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Am I changing my schedule?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Am I inviting you into my closet?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have to move my clothes?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I know that sounds petty, but it's not because people who are used to what they're used to have difficulty changing.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the older you are, the harder it becomes because you're more invested in yourself and what you finally are able to do for you or for your grandchildren or for your kids.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, on a whim, my daughter calls me up and says, Mom, can you come to Texas and help me with the kids?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because of blah, blah, blah, whatever reason.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you jump on a plane.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to say to somebody, Oh, by the way, my daughter calls and I'm gonna leave because and he's gonna say, Well, what about me?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I'm here.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, those kinds of things.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a lot to consider to remarry.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: And in our generation, Jackie, we did marriage in a pretty traditional way, right?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: In that, I mean, certainly many of us, both people, were working by this time versus our parents were brought up.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it was usually the women that were doing all the cooking, the cleaning, the dealing with the kids' lessons, the buying of the clothes, taking to appointments.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: We did all of that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it really is nice when you get to a point when you don't have to do that anymore.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like somebody said to me once, you know, you can have a chocolate bar for dinner if you want.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: A bowl of cereal.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: I like, I think how many years did I cook dinner for a family?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it was just Surge and I, empty nesters, but still I was cooking dinner virtually every night.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so you say that because it's obviously depends on who you are.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when I first divorced, my first thing was I'm going to lose everything I love to do cooking, laundry.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know that all sounded crazy, but I was like, all the domestic stuff that I've always engaged in that I've really enjoyed, now it's gone.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can still do some of it for yourself, but it's different.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is so different.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, we get into our own a completely different routine.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it is quite nice.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, doing what you want and eating what you want and when you want, etc., etc.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And like saying yes to people, right?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: That I I don't want to check in with somebody else.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe eventually I will, I don't know.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: But like somebody says to me, Hey, can you play pickleball tonight after work?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: What was I gonna go home to?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was cooking myself dinner, there's no there's no reason to say no, right?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: I say yes to many more things because it's only me.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can say, Hey, if you want to come over at nine o'clock tonight because you want a glass of wine and you had a rough day at work and it's nine o'clock at night, nobody's saying to me, Well, that's kind of late.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why is she coming over?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's nine o'clock.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have talked about this before.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we did have a conversation a while back around you know, the luxuries of living by yourself, and and those things are all true.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: As well, it doesn't negate the fact that to use your word alignment, if we find somebody that we are fully aligned with, we're not gonna say no to that.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, absolutely not.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that when you consider, so let's let's look at this.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Nine times out of ten, probably ten times out of ten, anybody that we meet now has either been divorced or widowed.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I also take into account how many times because there are people who have been married three times, there are people who have been married two times.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we look at that, but you also have to look at compromise.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so now you've been living on your own, I've been living on my own.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do we have to compromise to be together?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: What's really important to me?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: What are my needs?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: What are your needs?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we incorporate?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if you find somebody who you're in love with and they are willing to do all the things I just said, then I'm there.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, in my marriage, which was the same as my mom, I always had a life outside my marriage, my own friends, my own activities, which I absolutely loved because there's no one person that can meet all your needs.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I would not want somebody that wanted my time all the time.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: I need the balance of my friends and all the different things that we share.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I would not want to give that.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I absolutely wouldn't.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my friends like you.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've had that conversation before, too.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: The friendship thing.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: We've been friends with people for 30 years, 40 years.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, not giving it up.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the best relationships work when each of them, each person in that relationship has outside interests, outside friends, different than theirs, right?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't have to be that different.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can remember, I certainly remember when I was married.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I played like Bonko with a group of women, but every so often we also went out with them as a couple, right?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: So couples to couples.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I was also married to a man who did not engage in anything with other men.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: He went to work and he came home for the most part, but he wasn't interested in like going to watch football with somebody or going to play golf, even though he played golf, or you know, initiating anything with a group of guys, never.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I found that burdensome actually.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I said that out loud before, that he depended on me so much for his entertainment, for what you know we were going to do next, and where were we going to go and were we going out with somebody?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: We were staying.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was all me.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a lot.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Jackie, this is not a unique situation.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, men don't tend to form strong friendships the way we do.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: They just don't.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my dad was the same, my husband was the same.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: He had people that he went for lunch with.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people that he called friends, they were colleagues, really.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, thank God he liked he really liked working.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So he would be yeah, home, but working, you know, and he never cared if I went out.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: But same thing.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And most women will say this their best friend is you.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a lot.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: It is a lot.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my husband saying to me one time, it's funny that he put this was kind of a vulnerable statement, but he said, you know, I depend on you more than you depend on me.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he was the breadwinner.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I worked only part-time, so he was the main provider.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought, yeah, you probably do depend on me, because exactly the same things you're talking about.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: So a second marriage, right?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Where is that?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: How much is that like to marry somebody who says to you, Oh, it's okay, Barb, if you're gonna go to your book club and you're gonna go out another night and do that.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: But what are you doing?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are you bringing to the table here?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Important.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I know we're we're pointing out a lot of stuff that probably makes people think I'm never getting married for a second time.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: But we're bringing out all the pros and cons, Jackie.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're winning at both ends.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and the older I get, certainly, I feel like there's more to consider.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you this, and this says something about me, probably that's not really very nice.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: I often want to be with my kids and my grandchildren alone.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Alone.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: And even when I dated somebody for a very long time, and I remember he would say to me, Well, can I come with you?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, No, I just want to go by myself.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: I want to, I want my time with them.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, of course, my children don't live close.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: So when I have time with them, I want my time with them.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to worry about what you're doing, or if I have to entertain you or whatnot.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be with them alone.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: So again, that would be another consideration for me.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: But with that being said, I'm gonna say this real quick.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know for a fact that my children, grown adults, would all love to see me with somebody.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: They would all, they would.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's really nice.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting tired of being alone.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not lonely, never am I lonely.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I get tired sometimes of just being alone.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it'd be nice to have somebody hanging around here.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hear you.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same thing.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't feel lonely either.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, sometimes, gee, this has been a long stretch here.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, we're gonna have to wrap this up.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Any final thoughts?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: My final thoughts are this emotional attachment is really important, compromise is very important.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Financial situations are really important.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Being in love matters, it matters a lot.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I think at this age we didn't really talk about this.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's very important to have many things in common.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: You can tell me opposites attract, but when you're older, part of that relationship needs to be companionship.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you companionship doesn't mean we're just gonna go out to dinner together all the time, and that's that, right?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: You have to have interests that are similar, I think.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or you can teach each other, or you're willing to learn something new.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you have to be interested in the other person as well as in love with them before you consider marriage.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, Jackie, and I think it's more important now than it was earlier because everybody was working and it was it was different.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: But because you're both home, retired, supposedly, yeah, it doesn't sort of make sense to get married and you're going here and they're going there constantly.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've got to meet in the middle for a few things anyway.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Jackie, thank you for this.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoy coming on and having these conversations with you, Barb.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: To no end.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you get me thinking.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you get me thinking too.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, these are these are fun.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, how can people reach you?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you have shut down your business, but what if people wanted to reach you, what how can they get there?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Through my email, which is jladdams13 at gmail.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Never the heading that alerts me to the fact that they listen to the show and they have a question.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or Right, right.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh have a great rest of your evening.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: You too, Barb.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, talk to you soon.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: This episode was written and recorded by Barb Demara, edited and produced by Aiden Glassy.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: As always, special thanks to our guests for making it possible.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed and you'd like to hear more, follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow the show on YouTube at what's next.convos with boomers.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.